Friend of a Friend (FOAF) IRC Chat Logs for 2003-09-24

00:56:47 <JibberJim> erk, looks like bluez doesn't work :-(

00:57:01 <JibberJim> Can't open RFCOMM control socket: :-(

01:04:35 <edd> just means your kernel's too old

01:04:49 * edd -> zzz

01:07:46 * JibberJim upgrades kernel.

02:11:06 <JibberJim> erk my kernel compilation went wrong :-(

08:13:02 <JimH_> JimH_ is now known as JimH

08:22:35 <nmg> morning max

08:22:54 <maxf> hi nick, and everyone

08:40:12 <nmg> anyone know if danbri got his livejournal invite thingy from someone yesterday?

08:42:38 * nmg answers that question himself - http://www.livejournal.com/users/danbri/

09:04:39 <ldodds> hi mattb

09:05:32 <mattb> hey there

09:06:37 <ldodds> hows the TV stuff coming along?

09:06:51 <mattb> haven't done much since i wrote that email

09:06:58 <mattb> i've been having reception problems with the wintv card at home

09:07:19 <mattb> nice to see the resposes come back, though

09:08:17 <mattb> so you got stuck on irc in the end? ;)

09:08:29 <mattb> the real thing more compelling than reading the logs?

09:08:45 <ldodds> rather, I confirmed that I would get addicted if I ended up dipping a toe in the waters :)

09:09:01 <ldodds> yep, more interesting than the logs.

09:09:13 <ldodds> but now I've lost my stalker status

09:09:35 <mattb> heh

09:15:26 <JimH>http://www.newswireless.net/articles/030923-badge.html

09:15:39 <JimH> Guy Kewney spots Bletooth presence

09:30:03 * JibberJim wonders who Guy Kewney is

09:30:44 <JimH> he's a UK Journo writes for a few of the bigger magazines

09:30:52 <JimH> normally pretty sane stuff

09:40:41 <JibberJim> oh dear if the sane think it's sensible!

09:40:53 <JibberJim> that's kinda worrying...

09:43:14 <opless2> Guy Kewney has been around for donkeys

09:43:25 <opless2> used to write for PCW

09:44:52 * JibberJim obviously doesn't read the right magazines

10:27:04 <ldodds> interesting piece from Erik Benson: http://erikbenson.com/index.cgi?node=when%20a%20group%20becomes%20and%20individual

10:27:57 * danbri books a Seattle hostel (http://www.greentortoise.net/)

10:28:41 <danbri> Google buy friendster. Hmm, beginning of the end for Google's good taste?

10:28:42 <JibberJim> Has it got a net connection?

10:29:34 <JibberJim> The beginning of the way to get VC guys to cough up cash?

10:29:34 * mattb wonders if something's up with swordfish, codepiction stuff running v slowly if at all

10:29:35 <danbri> http://www.corante.com/many/archives/2003/09/14/codifying_relationships.php#comments

10:30:01 <danbri> net connection -- i believe something, though i suspect just a shared PC

10:30:12 * danbri will look for nearby starbucks; i hear seattle has a few...

10:30:26 <danbri> never been there tho

10:31:01 <mattb> what takes you to seattle?

10:31:30 <JibberJim> there was definately a SEA hostel that provided free plugin connection... from my chats with people who'd made it to vancouver.

10:32:35 <JibberJim> They defeated the Espresso tax too...

10:34:24 <ldodds> some more write up on "ambient conversations": http://neemanet.com/blog/archives/001242.html

10:40:48 <JibberJim> How would the structure of the world have to change in order to allow messages of highest importance to reach 100% of the people in less than a day?

10:41:53 <JibberJim> (from Erik Benson's piece) - Surely there are no messages that need to reach 100% of the population... other than perhaps about the giant comet destroying all life _NOW_, and even then I'm sure lots would rather not know.

10:42:43 <ldodds> I'd tend to agree, even within his analogy to the body, I can't think of any messages that would go _everywhere_

10:44:52 * JibberJim can't see messages that are important to more than say 40% of the world, and only a few of those...

10:46:50 <MartinR|oell> who is to decide which message is "important"?

10:47:16 <libby> everyone?

10:47:19 <libby> by vote

10:47:43 <libby> we'd all end up hearing about jlo

10:47:57 <MartinR|oell> lol

10:48:20 <JibberJim> individuals, but if it's not important then they wouldn't pass it on, which is what the system was relying on.

10:48:36 <libby> right

10:48:41 <libby> in some sense of 'important'

10:48:48 <libby> intersting idea

10:51:00 * JibberJim notices that it's getting cold...

10:52:24 <libby> brr

10:52:35 <libby> and now, the weather, with Jim Ley

10:53:09 <edd> well, it's the only thing to watch when the cricket's not on

10:53:21 <ldodds> and about as much fun

10:53:23 * ldodds ducks

10:53:33 <libby> Jim, there's a chill in the air and no mistake today. Looks like autumn's here! What weather realted news do you ahve for us?

10:53:34 * edd contaminates ldodds with a botfly larva

10:53:39 <libby> ew!

10:53:52 * ldodds runs around shrieking

10:53:54 * JibberJim takes back his interest in meeting ldodds, he's clearly a philistine...

10:54:22 * JibberJim lives in a house with no heating... not really weather related, but makes me sensitive to it...

10:54:56 <libby> poor jim

10:55:11 * ldodds remembers he had a question for Edd about PGP signing

10:55:11 <libby> heating not turned on at UoB either

10:57:03 <ldodds> If I wanted to encrypt FOAF data for a particular group, then that group has to co-ordinate and set up a FOAF agent (e.g. bot) that owns the key to decrypt it, yes?

10:57:15 <edd> Yep.

10:57:33 <ldodds> hmmm

10:58:10 <libby> can you encrypt files to x people

10:58:13 <libby> ?

10:58:19 <ldodds> I was thinking about adding a public/private thing to FOAF-a-Matic, so you could flag which data items are public, or which is private, and wanted to allow some granularity on the private side, e.g. which group can see it

10:58:54 * libby thinks this stuff very interesting

10:59:32 <libby> I tried encrypting calendar files to myself, and then realised taht because of the danger of accidental rebroadcasting of proviate data, I'd need to ahve very good provenance

10:59:40 <libby> and a year later I nearly ahve :)

10:59:53 <ldodds> I want to be able to say AllConsuming can know what books I own, but not say, RobberBarons-R-Us

11:00:07 <libby> once there's _any_ encrypted data around we may run into trouble

11:00:26 <ldodds> But to do that I've got to run round each group and ensure they've got an agent

11:00:30 <libby> be inteersing though

11:00:51 <libby> use CCC instead?

11:01:05 <ldodds> ?

11:01:16 <libby> erm, CC?

11:01:20 <libby> creative commons?

11:01:21 <JibberJim> My biggest concern is smushing against the private data - for example if I want to keep my Superhero and Geek identities seperate other than to my fellow superhero community, that sorta means smushing at runtime or seperate DB's.

11:01:30 <libby> reuse of data control?

11:01:46 <libby> right

11:02:25 <JibberJim> not that I am a superhero of course, oh no...

11:02:34 <libby> if there's any encrpted data, local prvate databases I think are safer

11:02:38 <libby> heh

11:02:43 <fidothe> something I was thinking about was checksums

11:02:48 * ldodds keeps getting spiders to bite him. One day....

11:03:02 <libby> hello fidothe

11:03:07 <libby> in what way?

11:03:08 <fidothe> if you've got private data that only certain people can know...

11:03:11 <fidothe> hey lib

11:03:17 <JibberJim> yes, but the local db's still need access to the wider community data to be useful...

11:03:33 <libby> yeah they do a runtime smush as you say....

11:03:45 <libby> query rmote db, local encrypted db and smush?

11:03:52 <libby> only work w smallish datasets

11:03:58 * libby still thinking calanedars

11:04:02 <JibberJim> we need the smushed dataset distribution method to stop the million scutter problem.

11:04:20 <libby> go on, fidothe...

11:04:23 <fidothe> ... then simply make public a checksum type thing and when it changes people ask for new private stuff for their local use

11:04:49 <libby> hm, yes jim. I guess done redistribute smushed data from encrypted files.

11:05:10 <fidothe> so I want my mate Jack to know about my X-Men collection, and he gets the file (somehow) and I publish a checksum type resource

11:05:16 <libby> s/done/don't/

11:05:29 <fidothe> when the collection changes, so does the checksum

11:05:39 <fidothe> so jack knows to re-request the private data

11:05:51 <ldodds> why not just ping Jack?

11:05:57 <ldodds> a la weblogs.com, etc?

11:06:06 <libby> etags/last modified?

11:06:13 <JibberJim> or call him up "How's the X-Men collection going?"

11:06:20 <fidothe> because then its somebody else's problem

11:06:51 <danbri> it's harder than redist smushed data.

11:06:57 <danbri> redist attributed smushed data.

11:07:13 <fidothe> I want to keep my private data private, but whether it's changed or not can be public

11:07:23 <JibberJim> hmm, how annoying, so now I'm installing X etc. and the debian installer asks me "Do you want to enable FreeType2 in mozilla" no question on if I want mozilla in the first place!

11:07:58 <danbri> jim, you've gone linux?!

11:08:14 <fidothe> i was thinking about address books anyway...

11:08:16 <ldodds> libby: going back to your CC suggestion. Something like that sounds reasonable...

11:08:33 <JibberJim> I need to write a bluetooth detection widgy

11:08:37 <ldodds> as in I want to make this data public for non-commerical use. But how do I sign and restrict it?

11:10:46 <JibberJim> and my choices for a BT widgy was 1500UKP for SDK, new BT dongle with free SDK (native XP support) or install linux...

11:11:15 <JibberJim> being a poor underemployed homeless guy, I went for the cheap option...

11:11:16 <danbri> are you dual booting?

11:11:31 <danbri> aww

11:11:33 <JibberJim> nah, I've got a VMWare licence...

11:11:40 <opless2> lol

11:11:51 <opless2> running xp ?

11:11:53 <danbri> how much did that cost you?

11:12:22 <JibberJim> It cost me nothing... I think it's 150ish or so.

11:20:39 <libby> ldodds, I think maybe jim talked about respecting cc licenses a long time back...

11:21:16 <libby> I think it's an intersting idea fidothe. not sure what to make of it.

11:29:01 <fidothe> it seemed to me that having a copy of something and knowing that it hasn't changed is a lot like having a link to the original

11:29:17 <danbri> jim, have you ever tried having foafnaut put face in the blubs, eg. per http://blog.airdrop.org/wifester/images/2.jpg

11:29:31 <libby> be good for scutterpans maybe, very big things?

11:29:40 <JibberJim> no, but you're welcome to try :-)

11:30:03 <JibberJim> there's not really the data, we need a special case of foaf:img I think that is literally a tight headshot.

11:30:21 <danbri> yeah, last time I tried the outline creator it didn't work on my version of the svg plugin...

11:30:42 <danbri> it could be modelled as a type on the image?

11:30:47 <JibberJim> nah, it doesn't in mine either...

11:30:55 <JibberJim> yep I could do that

11:31:00 <danbri> do you know what the prob is?

11:31:51 <fidothe> libby: what's a scutterpan?

11:32:09 <libby> a list of rdf urls to find (in RDF)

11:32:13 <fidothe> a way of gently caramelising scutters over an open fire?

11:32:20 <libby> heh

11:32:23 <libby> scutterplan even

11:32:26 <libby> yum

11:32:45 <fidothe> aha...

11:32:54 <libby> actually I was thinking of really bit files, like jim's smushed database dumps

11:33:00 <libby> s/bit/big/

11:33:27 <libby> I dont know enough about etags etc to know if they work well or wther somethign else is needed

11:34:06 <ldodds> Has anyone thought of including pronounciation cues with, say, names?

11:34:15 <ldodds> How would this get modelled?

11:34:34 * ldodds has been sketching out a voice app that would use foaf data

11:34:43 <libby> ooh

11:34:50 <fidothe> for machine pronunciation?

11:35:09 <ldodds> yep, basically I want to be able to attach some JSML markup to say a name

11:35:19 <ldodds> but potentially anything

11:35:27 <fidothe> IPA?

11:35:35 <fidothe> that'd do it...

11:35:41 <fidothe> you'd need unicode tho.

11:35:43 <ldodds> IPA?

11:35:52 <fidothe> international phonetic alphabet

11:36:13 <fidothe> near as damnit best way to explain how to say something

11:36:17 <ldodds> well I was going to use this: http://java.sun.com/products/java-media/speech/forDevelopers/JSML/

11:36:50 <ldodds> ah, yes that include IPA in the phoneme element

11:37:55 <fidothe> yeah - was just looking...

11:38:21 <ldodds> I know that I'm going to need some parseType="xml" in there somewhere, but not sure where I should be attaching the triples.

11:40:08 <JibberJim> hmm, XFree86 doesn't seem to want to run - but using Snork's XServer I'm away, Konqueror and IE running side by side :-)

11:47:48 <JibberJim> edd, is 2.4.18 a new enough kernel?

11:48:11 <JibberJim> it just says latest 2.4.x which is 22, but I can't apt-get a 22...

11:56:36 <ephidrina> jim: d'y think we should say a bit more about projected features in this abstract?

11:56:57 <JibberJim> well, there should be lots of shiny new features by feb.

11:57:10 <ephidrina> hmm - like what?

11:57:24 <JibberJim> Erm, shiny ones.

11:58:17 <JibberJim> Things I'd like to get in which are relatively easy are groups, user configurable what's in the info box.

11:59:00 <JibberJim> Then there's documents etc.

11:59:26 <JibberJim> Then there's visual filtering (highlight everyone interested in the semantic web) or (highlight those people who live in the UK)

12:01:31 <edd> JibberJim: you need 2.4.22

12:02:46 <JibberJim> thought I might, last nights compile went wrong :-(

12:06:09 <JibberJim> aha, it's unstable, so that's okay.

12:18:14 <JibberJim> hehe, even cut+paste between IE and (debian) XEmacs...

12:26:49 * JibberJim has probably just put the last nails in the coffin of me ever leaving a Windows OS...

12:37:51 * mattb sneaks some more rdf into the bbc interactive systems control software

12:38:05 <libby> heheh

12:38:45 <mattb> <tv:channel rdf:resource="http://bbcbroadcast.com/interactive/2003/channel#BBC_TWO_ENGLAND"/> etc

12:55:05 * ldodds dances around at getting "add an album" into FM Mark2

12:55:39 <ldodds> UI still needs work though: http://www.ldodds.com/misc/fm-teaser.jpg

12:57:37 <libby> ooh

12:58:07 <dajobe> you tease!

13:02:29 <ericP> is there a foaf-a-tron?

13:02:39 <ericP> or a foaf-u-lator?

13:03:09 <maxf> a mother-foafer?

13:03:40 <opless2> ldodds: java or C# ?

13:03:42 <ericP> lol

13:04:01 <danbri>http://www.foaf-project.org/2003/schemas/schematron/foaf-a-tron.html

13:04:23 <danbri> later version, http://www.foaf-project.org/2003/schemas/profiles/readme.html

13:04:24 <libby> yay!

13:04:27 <danbri> schematron stuff from Leigh

13:04:29 <danbri> leigh++

13:04:37 <danbri> danbri-- # didn't followup

13:04:54 <inkel> good morning/evening/night

13:05:02 <danbri> hi inkel

13:05:12 <danbri> when is it for you?

13:05:15 <libby> hey inkel

13:05:53 <danbri> leigh, very nice: http://www.ldodds.com/misc/fm-teaser.jpg

13:06:09 <danbri> ...what are the IDs? Musicbrainz internal ID for the work?

13:06:56 <danbri> ...because I'd be shocked and horrified if this mutated into a P2P friends-of-friends filesharing app ;)

13:07:18 <danbri> per http://openp2p.com/lpt/a/554

13:07:33 * JibberJim would be shocked and horrified too, oh yes...

13:07:49 <danbri> psst jim, got any mp3s?

13:07:52 * JibberJim wonders how to put little record icons floating around foafnaut people...

13:09:04 <ldodds2> oops had to go to a meeting (and am still there)

13:09:21 <ldodds2> opless2: it's java

13:09:36 <ldodds2> danbri: ids are MB ids, but I've been wondering about P2P and FOAF :)

13:09:49 <danbri> :)

13:10:12 <danbri> is "share this with my friends" fair usage?

13:10:22 <ldodds2> I'm going to extend it to allow rating (1-10) and rating comment for each album too

13:10:28 <danbri> (and if they share it with their friends, that's their bad...)

13:10:31 <danbri> nice

13:11:09 <dajobe> hmm, grep RDF /usr/include/musicbrainz/musicbrainz.h returns several calls

13:12:08 <danbri> shame movie data hard to come by...

13:15:24 <edd> ldodds: very interesting wrt the work being done on rhythmbox (see rhythmbox.org)

13:15:45 <edd> ldodds: definitely a linkup opportunity there

13:16:54 <ldodds2> dajobe: this is my version: http://www.ldodds.com/projects/musicbrainz/api/com/ldodds/musicbrainz/MusicBrainz.html

13:17:21 <ldodds2> danbri: yeah, I'd like to have sorted movies too. I was thinking about hooking up to Amazon, and also mattb's TV stuff

13:18:43 <ldodds2> edd, I'll check out rhythmbox. I may hook it up to an MP3 tag reader too, so I can scan through a collection

13:19:44 <ldodds2> there will be an HTTP interface for adding albums too, by browsing through musicbrainz.org.

13:19:49 <ldodds2> could be extended in other ways

13:20:17 <ldodds2> app already supports "add a friend" bookmarklet

13:36:01 <danbri> leigh, how do you see foaf-a-matic v2 being actually deployed? similar to v1, eg. as an applet?

13:36:43 <ldodds2> desktop app, but it could easily be an applet

13:37:32 * danbri nods; that thinlet stuff seemed quite nippy...

13:37:37 <danbri> normally am skeptical about applets...

13:38:38 <JibberJim> Now my debian's disappeared :-(

13:39:02 <JibberJim> it won't boot either the shiny new kernel, or the crufty old one :-(

13:40:47 <JibberJim> why didn't I take a snapshot... /me is an idiot

13:42:09 <verbosus> Leigh, I suggested to some users to use your tool to generate their FOAF file.

13:42:26 <zool> lol

13:42:27 <mattb> JibberJim: you can prolly boot it with an installer CD

13:42:35 <mattb> re zool

13:42:38 <zool> re mattb

13:42:46 <verbosus> but maybe there should be a validation thingie on the input they are typing

13:42:50 <zool> realising now, that i managed to spend yesterday on oftc.net

13:42:51 <mattb> the debian CDs have a rescue option

13:42:53 <zool> #foaf

13:43:00 <mattb> lol

13:43:01 <zool> wondering why it was so quiet

13:43:04 <mattb> not much conversation there?

13:43:08 <ldodds2> verbosus: I'd suggest using online FM for moment, and FM2 (hopefully) by early next week

13:43:09 <zool> even though there are a lot of the same names there!

13:43:10 <verbosus> ’cause one of the girls had a literal where there should have been a URI.

13:43:38 <zool> no conversation, but like 30 lurkers

13:43:54 <zool> ah well

13:44:04 * JibberJim wonders who they are...

13:44:06 <danbri> welcome back zool

13:44:16 <zool> most of the same people as are here

13:44:20 * zool smiles thx

13:44:43 <zool> anyway i was playing with a parliament scraper if that's of interest: http://mutemap.openmute.org/mcc/search?search=libdems etc

13:44:54 <zool> i can get geodata into it, but only fiddlily

13:45:26 <danbri> oh, nice

13:45:44 <zool> we were talking about connecting up hansard

13:45:45 <danbri> I was wondering about 'pt:party' and notions of groups... flavours of membership

13:45:52 <danbri> you could say that X was a member of the labour party

13:45:54 <zool> but i forget how

13:46:01 <danbri> but that wouldn't distinguish me from Tony Blair

13:46:04 <JibberJim> oh yeah, I saw that the statistics folk offer council boundary geo data for free, that could be tied in?

13:46:06 <danbri> not that i'm currently a member

13:46:36 * zool nods, matt and i talked over this - parties have a weirdkind of duality, where they rpresent groups - the Labour Party - but also a kind of entity/affiliation which is entirely abstractable away...

13:46:49 <zool> JibberJim: really?

13:46:56 <zool> i'd love to do that

13:47:07 <danbri> the dc:relation ... what does that mean?

13:47:15 <danbri> it points from a thing to a page about them?

13:47:18 <zool> yeah

13:47:29 * danbri immodestly offers foaf:page for that (inverse of foaf:topic)

13:47:30 <zool> again, i'd either have made up a predicate or used xlink:href

13:47:33 <danbri> dc:relation is supervague

13:47:49 <danbri> (it might be the superproperty of all properties...)

13:47:54 <zool> hehe

13:48:13 <zool> okay, in this case the relation is fairly direct

13:48:13 <danbri> http://rdfweb.org/topic/UsingFoafTopic for usage eg

13:48:32 <JibberJim>http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=f1523bf.0309190752.42b10bd9%40posting.google.com

13:48:33 <danbri> Well, the way yr markup works, the more obscure foaf:page would be better used

13:48:34 <zool> thanks!

13:48:58 <danbri> someday there'll be no implementation/deployment cost of having inverse properties...

13:50:12 * danbri ponders the workplaceHomepage of an MP

13:50:29 <danbri>http://www.parliament.uk/

13:50:32 <danbri> or their party site?

13:50:34 <danbri> or both?

13:50:40 <JimH> or neither...

13:50:44 <danbri> precision is so hard...

13:50:46 <danbri> heh :)

13:50:49 <danbri> south of france?

13:51:22 <JibberJim> I can't seem to rescue it Mattb, it goes "Kernel panic: VFS: Unable to mount root fs on 08:00" :-(

13:51:34 <danbri> ouch

13:52:46 <JibberJim> oops, no sorry, my fault...

13:53:00 <zool> parliasment.uk i would say yes

13:53:27 <zool> oh or their constituency homepage

13:54:07 <zool> part of the relation justification, is i can slurp out a lot of related links, but not classify them that surely (though the present use is an exception)

13:54:55 <zool> heh, also the odd thing where they have to withdraw their personal homepage from the net during election campaign time

13:55:08 <zool> though web.archive doesnt care much about that

13:56:33 * ldodds2 coalesces back into a single organism

13:57:11 <zool> wow

14:08:58 * zool wonders if either dan or libby got back to, or heard back from, the 'news about networks' people that edd pinged at

14:11:26 <ldodds> libby, have you seen the new Nature Events site? http://www.nature.com/nature-events/

14:11:56 <ldodds> slightly disappointed that there's no RSS feeds. NPG added some for a least one of their other sites

14:13:29 <ldodds> yep, NSU it was http://www.nature.com/nsu/rss.rdf

14:22:48 <libby> heya zool, ldodds

14:22:51 <libby> shellac :)

14:23:18 <shellac> ?

14:23:19 <zool> i wish i had ipv6

14:23:37 <libby> ello

14:23:41 * edd found it more trouble thatn it was worth

14:23:44 <edd> my tunnel kept falling over

14:23:45 <libby> I dont think so zool

14:24:13 <shellac> bt's tunnels seem stable - ipng.org.uk had problems

14:24:32 <shellac> (to the point that they've closed the service)

14:24:45 <edd> i kept forgetting to renew the tunnel

14:25:48 <zool> libby, okay... just wondering, as we seem to have missed the boat on the workshop deadline (19th)

14:26:21 <zool> i'm still curious about it, but reluctant to tread on either of your toes if you're still interested in going - thoughts of mailing them

14:26:24 * zool shurgs

14:26:39 <danbri> don't think i heard back, but i get too much mail and miss stuff sometimes

14:27:01 <libby> crud, oops

14:27:44 <ephidrina> libby: what were u counting?

14:28:23 <libby> -allof it?

14:28:27 <libby> heh

14:28:38 <libby> sorry epi, probly just being a fule

14:29:20 <ephidrina> hmm - the word counter said 247 or something

14:29:38 * ephidrina shrugs - it's gone now :)

14:29:45 <ephidrina> fitted in the box provided

14:30:07 <libby> I'm sure its fine

14:30:13 <libby> didn;t mean to worry you

14:36:58 <libby> I think I know someone who works at nature ldodds...

14:37:48 <ldodds> I've exchanged mail with Timo Hannay recently

14:38:18 <ldodds> he's their Associate Director of New Technology

14:38:27 <ldodds> we were discussing FOAF as it 'appens

14:38:37 <libby> ooh

14:39:04 <ldodds> I see a bit of an overlap with me day job. I'd quite like to get foaf docs for researchers and research groups

14:39:28 <ldodds> makes for interesting search/retrieval options

14:39:32 <libby> yeah

14:39:34 <danbri> that would be cool. should look at the stuff ilrters did a year or two back, also nmg and co did some nice work

14:39:45 * libby was just going to say that :)

14:39:55 <libby> a lirrle bit in swad-e too

14:40:30 <ldodds> he's involved with http://urchin.sourceforge.net/ too

14:41:02 <ldodds> and apparently NPG are very interested in SW stuff

14:41:18 <ldodds> want to find time to go up to London to meet 'em

14:42:07 <libby> npg?

14:42:30 <ldodds> NPG (Nature Publishing Group), New Tech group specifically

14:42:37 <libby> ah.

14:42:40 <libby> really, wow

14:43:20 * libby would like a job as a roving persuader-of-people-to-use-events-vocabs.

14:43:23 <libby> at least part time

14:44:09 <ldodds> they rarely let me out of the office :)

14:44:19 <zool> yeah ditto re the spatial/social

14:44:51 <libby> aw

14:44:57 <libby> they just dont understand us

14:47:37 <ldodds> research group connection with FOAF was prompted by this article: http://www.ariadne.ac.uk/issue35/harnad/

14:48:20 <ldodds> "The Funding Councils should mandate that...all UK research-active university staff must maintain (I) a standardised online RAE-CV...

14:48:27 <ldodds> and I read "RAE-CV" as "FOAF" :)

14:48:33 <libby> heh

14:49:19 <JibberJim> and provide 1% of all funding to semantic vapourware ltd for development of foaf?

14:49:28 <libby> right

14:49:30 <ldodds> but of course :)

14:49:32 <libby> yes indeed

14:56:46 <danbri> am reminded of my http://www.sosig.ac.uk/gv/ days...

14:57:21 <libby> indeed

14:57:27 <libby> still going I think

14:58:34 <ldodds> cool, not seen that before

14:59:11 <danbri> it lacks much buzz around it, is a pretty static site

14:59:22 * danbri did the first version in perl, current one is java

14:59:29 <libby> buzz isn;t everything :)

14:59:37 <danbri> static in sense of not got a lot of people revisiting it, community etc...

14:59:44 <danbri> no discussion boards etc

14:59:56 <danbri> could v easily have become a hosted weblog platform for SW researchers

14:59:59 <danbri> given some more funding

15:00:05 <danbri> s/SW/SocSci/

15:00:33 <ldodds> I'd been thinking about research blogs also

15:00:47 <ldodds> I convinced a friend to set up MT for a bunch of researchers at Bath Uni.

15:00:59 <ldodds> Been wondering whether there would be broader appeal

15:01:01 <danbri> how'd that go?

15:01:06 <danbri> there should be imho

15:01:20 <libby> makes a bunch of sense

15:01:27 <danbri> also i think subject gatways like SOSIG... too expensive in long term... need combin of weblogs, rss, foaf, web-o-trust etc instead

15:01:29 <ldodds> so-so

15:01:34 <libby> guess there's an issue where they ahve their own blogs

15:01:37 <ldodds> been meaning to check up on him

15:01:38 * danbri handwaves terribly

15:02:15 <ldodds> I've been trying to convince folk here to do that as part of what we do. We'll see...

15:03:31 <ldodds> Strong overlap with semblog stuff as well.

15:03:38 * ldodds joins in the handwaving

15:05:30 * zool shudders at the sight of the word 'semblog'

15:06:29 <ldodds> it's not of my making :)

15:14:01 <libby> guys, when exactly do etcon props have to be in?

15:14:10 <libby> a few hours' time?

15:14:24 <zool> yeah end of day today

15:14:25 <danbri> (but why take my word for it)

15:14:30 <danbri> yeah then

15:14:39 <zool> strictly, i guess not til 8a.m. BST

15:14:41 * danbri takes a piece of paper and himself away for a while

15:15:46 <libby> i.e. midnight west coast?

15:16:03 * libby wishes she could write

15:16:47 * danbri wishes he could write to order

15:16:47 * dajobe has got 1/2 a title so far

15:16:50 <danbri> procrastiwhat?

15:34:43 <edd> writing to order is easy

15:34:48 <edd> it's getting the damn orders...

15:35:54 * ldodds is out of practice

15:36:23 <danbri> writing to order hard!

15:36:31 * danbri goes to sit in cafe, really this time.

15:36:43 <danbri> "I can't work in these conditions" etc

15:37:29 * zool &

15:38:34 * nmg woos as he gets (simple) owl:sameAs handling in the 3store browser

15:39:15 <libby> woo!

15:39:35 <nmg> http://triplestore.aktors.org/browse/?resource=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ecs.soton.ac.uk%2Finfo%2F%23person-02686 for an example

15:40:04 <dajobe> sameAS on the URIs?

15:40:05 <nmg> builds the equivalence class of a resource (by following owl:sameAs), then builds a smushed view

15:40:16 <nmg> yes, sameAs on the URIs

15:40:27 <nmg> how those got there is left as an Exercise For The Reader

15:40:33 <dajobe> is "visiting person <- ..." an incoming link?

15:40:37 <nmg> it is

15:40:48 <dajobe> maybe you could have a popup on the img?

15:40:54 <dajobe> er, title

15:41:47 <nmg> not a bad idea. the predicates have popups giving the fulle URIs as it stands, so adding another wouldn't hurt

15:47:54 * ldodds screams at finding another use of escaped markup in the wild

15:48:50 <ndw> where?

15:49:01 <ldodds>http://www.loc.gov/z3950/agency/zing/srw/records.html

15:49:13 <ldodds> "Records are expressed as a single string in SRW in order that SOAP toolkits which do not recognise the XML fragment data type not try to parse them as part of the response message. As such, < > and & will be escaped to their entity forms."

15:50:05 <ldodds> sample records: http://www.loc.gov/z3950/agency/zing/srw/sru-samples.html

15:50:39 <ndw> sigh.

15:51:12 <ndw> Is the the US Gov? I guess so.

15:51:29 <ldodds> Library of Congress

15:52:35 <ndw> I wonder who to argue with.

15:53:15 * edd hides.

15:53:43 <ldodds> I was looking to support this with the aim of supporting a "standard". Not sure I want to now... :)

15:54:04 <ndw> I hear you

15:54:36 * mattb looks

15:54:37 <mattb> ouch!

15:55:48 <ldodds> laughingly they even say it's legal to attach a stylesheet to the responses. What's it going to do?! The useful bits are all escaped

15:56:47 * ndw thought at one time that we might squash this. now begins to get depressed.

16:00:08 * JibberJim tries again with an even shinier new kernel

16:04:58 <JibberJim> failed... but I'd not run lilo so it was still trying the old...

16:07:01 <inkel> inkel is now known as inkel_lunching

16:11:08 <ldodds> norm: it may not be that bad, looks like they're addressing the issue: http://listserv.loc.gov/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0301&L=zng&P=R709&m=2643

16:11:15 * ldodds is still digging

16:19:09 <JibberJim> Is there a nice debian person, who's able to help me out with a problem?

16:19:34 * mattb will try

16:20:59 <JibberJim> okay, I need a shiny new kernel, all's compiled okay, and I've packaged it up into a debian kernel package, and installed it, all seems to go fine, lilo.conf gets it booting, but then it complains about being unable to mount the root FS.

16:21:21 <mattb> did you build the package with kernel-package?

16:21:24 <JibberJim> yes

16:21:34 <mattb> hrrm, that should get it all correct for you

16:21:52 <edd> not if you don't do the righht initrd dance

16:21:57 <edd> which is what this sounds like

16:21:57 <JibberJim> as I say, it's booting fine, you can see it's the new one (bluez successfully initalises)

16:22:05 <mattb> my kernel packages don't use initrd, afaik

16:22:10 <mattb> it's only the stock debian ones that do

16:22:20 <Jibbler> arg ... is there any way to get microsoft word to show EPS files in the document (on screen) if they don't have previews built into them?

16:22:44 <edd> yes, but being unable to mounbt rootfs means either jim's not compiled in ext2fs support, or more likely that it's a module and there's no initrd setup....

16:22:55 <mattb> yes, that is a good point

16:23:03 <mattb> i made a kernel with ext2 the other day, that sucked

16:23:12 <mattb> without, rather

16:24:15 <mattb> and if you use kernel-package to build from the Config-2.4.21 from a standard 2.4.21 debian kernel image, it has all the stuff like ext2 as modules, as you say

16:24:24 <mattb> but then builds a package without an initrd

16:24:33 <edd> unless you remember the --initrd option to make-kpkg

16:24:41 <mattb> well worth knowing

16:24:54 <edd> yeah, i bet most FOAFers care loads :)

16:25:08 * mattb can feel them caring from here

16:25:19 <ldodds> you never know when random facts can help :)

16:25:55 <mattb> typewriter is the longest word that can be created by using only the top row of the keyboard

16:26:10 * ldodds bows to the hardcore techies

16:26:23 * ldodds takes his hat off to mattb "king of random facts"

16:26:30 <JibberJim> right, there's no initrd certainly, so what's the best option from here get initrd working, or redo the make-kpkg?

16:26:32 * mattb passes the hat to google

16:26:42 <mattb> redo the make

16:27:00 <mattb> you need an initrd image with the necessary modules in it from the compile to bootstrap yourself into mounting the root fs

16:27:09 <mattb> it'll make one

16:27:36 <mattb> or alternatively recompile without initrd but with support for ext2 compiled right in

16:32:04 * ldodds calls it a day

16:32:05 <ldodds> cya

16:32:37 * JibberJim wonders what to do for 20 minutes...

17:04:54 * mortenf counts the hours against dan diego time...

17:05:25 <JibberJim> did you have a power cut yesterday?

17:05:30 <mortenf> yep...

17:05:41 <mortenf> spent most of the evening getting back up :(

17:06:00 <mortenf> and to think i was first in line mocking the 'merkins last month...

17:06:21 <mortenf> anyway, i blame the swedes!

17:07:50 <JibberJim> I blame the Turnips!

17:10:08 * danbri back, typing up

17:10:38 * mortenf reviews his notes, starts typing

17:21:00 <JibberJim> okay initrd doesn't appear to make it work :-( I can't believe I cocked up and didn't install ext2 support :-(

17:23:22 <oPless> O_o

17:23:35 <oPless> impressive jim

17:24:14 <JibberJim> Is there anyway I can find out if I did or not?

17:24:40 <danbri> jim, edd, others... are you submitting stuff re foafmobile?

17:24:48 * danbri has a passing mention in his etcon blurb

17:25:02 * JibberJim plans to submit something on bluetooth/identifying people and stuff.

17:25:06 <danbri> ok

17:25:29 <JibberJim> going to try and get a working setup on site...

17:25:57 <danbri> Is 'indy media' an acceptable shorthand for 'stuff in the same space as Indymedia but not just that project'?

17:26:00 * mortenf is submitting vapourware...

17:26:24 * danbri too :)

17:26:43 <mortenf> heh, i guess it wouldn't be emerging if it wasn't

17:30:58 <zoyd> JibberJim: so, nothing much to stop us from using foaf:readsWeblog then.

17:32:28 * danbri prefers plain old 'reads'

17:33:30 * JibberJim isn't sure between reads/readsWeblog the second sounds better PR

17:34:28 <Cardinal> <foaf:reads rdf:resource="http://www.wired.com" />

17:34:45 <mortenf> foaf:skims?

17:38:57 <JibberJim> right so it does have ext2 support...

17:39:08 <JibberJim> so that's not the problem...

17:39:12 * JibberJim feels incompetent

17:39:27 * mortenf abstains from commenting

17:39:40 <JibberJim> you're a debian user aren't you?

17:39:47 <mortenf> nope :)

17:40:38 * Cardinal is.

17:41:00 <JibberJim> do you know why I can't mount root on my shiny new kernel?

17:41:09 <zoyd> Cardinal: that's more like bookmarks.

17:42:42 <Cardinal> zoyd: Well, bookmarking something doesn't imply coming back to it on a regular (and perhaps frequent) basis like :reads would, I think.

17:42:54 <Cardinal> I've got plenty of bookmarks I haven't looked at in years. :)

17:49:18 <Cardinal> JibberJim: Sorry, nothing comes to mind. What is it telling you when it tries?

17:49:22 * mortenf saves draft, goes to visit a new-born, hopes to return in time for some peer-review before dead-line...

17:51:15 <JibberJim> VFS: Cannot open root device "801" or 08:01

17:55:54 <JibberJim> if I try telling it on the boot menu to use /dev/sda1 it fails too.

17:56:24 <zoyd> danbri: "foaf:reads" is not in the spec's unstable yet, is it?

17:56:49 <Cardinal> JibberJim: http://rhlufaq.synfin.net/DOCS/boot13.html might be helpful.

17:59:58 <JibberJim> but I've checked it's got ext2 and SCSI support, and it's a bog standard scsi device from vmware... no funny drivers needed...

18:09:34 <pdigity> JibberJim: on the subject of freads v. readsWeblog, why not have a general reads and a readsWeblog that extends this?

18:10:29 <pdigity> and with respect to skim v. read, why not have a property of reads that indicates frequency/quality of your consumption, e.g. frequency="often"?

18:11:17 * JibberJim wonders why he's become the expert on readsWeblog.... :-)

18:12:08 <JibberJim> but yeah, I think there's room for both.

18:12:33 <JibberJim> perhaps not in foaf, but in another namespace along with readsNewspaper, watchesTVChannel etc. ?

18:13:07 <inkel_lunching> inkel_lunching is now known as inkel

18:13:27 <zoyd> danbri: why do you prefer "reads"?

18:14:14 <danbri> because web pages and weblogs are too hard to distinguish

18:14:45 <danbri> someone may say, in foaf, 'this is my weblog' w/ foaf:weblog. But there are plenty of corner cases left which may or may not 'count'.

18:14:49 <JibberJim> but what does :reads <www.google.com> mean?

18:15:18 <pdigity> JabberJim: nothing to me, but :reads news.google.com means something.

18:15:20 <danbri> i'm not claiming it is intuitively or truly applicable to all pages ever

18:15:40 <Cardinal> That someone has too much time on their hands? :)

18:15:49 <pdigity> hehe.

18:16:25 * JibberJim is getting very frustrated with this...

18:16:57 <zoyd> weblog = permalinks/archives, reverse-chrono order, etc.

18:17:51 <zoyd> so, advogato diaries can be called weblogs.

18:18:21 <zoyd> also weblogs should have an rss feed.

18:18:38 <pdigity> forgive me for belaboring this as I've not been privvy to the whole discussion, but I'm unclear why having both foaf:reads and foaf:readsWeblog (extending :reads) is not workable for everyone? Then you let the author/owner decide what is what.

18:19:34 <JibberJim> One reason is that foaf:readsWeblog is redundant, because you could have a foaf:readsWeblog <foo>

18:19:44 <zoyd> there are pretty clear enough differences between a page and a weblog.

18:19:54 <JibberJim> or a foaf:reads <foo> <foo> rdf:type foaf:Weblog

18:20:20 <pdigity> zoyd: I disagree, is my site (parkert.com) a weblog or a website. I consider it to not be a blog, though people keep telling me it is.

18:21:41 <danbri> +1

18:23:09 <Cardinal> I think :reads simply fits with FOAF's tendancy towards broad, generally-termed properties.

18:23:45 <Cardinal> Group, Org, topic, knows[, owns]..

18:24:12 <zoyd> pdigity: yours is not a weblog because there are no permalinks to the archives.

18:28:15 <pdigity> zoyd: I think your definition of weblog is too narrow. A weblog to me is a "personal public periodical", whether it's perma (what is?), or uses rss, etc seem to be just implementation details.

18:29:12 <zoyd> pdigity: nope. then you call it a diary or something.

18:30:03 <pdigity> zoyd: Well, like I said, I don't consider it a website (I think it *is* more like a public diary) but many people I know *do* think this meets *their* definition of a weblog.

18:30:21 <zoyd> pdigity: actually my definition is broad enough already, people will tell you weblogs should do comments, trackback and what not.

18:31:28 <pdigity> my point being, the term is used in a way that doesn't jive with your definition. To reconsile these you can a) change your definition or b) educate everyone who uses the term about the "true definition". I just think the former is easier ;).

18:33:11 <pdigity> ...that is, if you want to agree on the meaning, and I think that's a useful thing.

18:33:36 * pdigity quits his harrassment of zoyd and goes to a meeting.

18:47:05 <_joshua> pedantic web apps are cool

18:47:08 <_joshua> i mean semantic

18:57:52 * zoyd should sleep

19:13:50 * danbri save http://rdfweb.org/2003/09/danbri-etcon/abstract.txt v1.9 (249 words not incl. title etc)

19:14:03 <danbri> comments and nitpicks welcome

19:16:33 <dajobe> looks good

19:16:41 <dajobe> P3 is one sentence

19:17:07 <dajobe> "designed to encourage coincidence" <- I like that

19:17:10 <dajobe> maybe put it earlier?

19:18:10 <dajobe> "modest technology" is also good, worth emphasising

19:19:31 <dajobe> The penultimate sentence "Foaf is both"... I had to read a few times, it's rather complex

19:19:45 <dajobe> "to ... for .. to ..."

19:19:56 * dajobe goes for food

19:20:20 <danbri> P3, yeah... couldn't see a natural break.

19:21:10 <dajobe> you could break before ", as well" but it's ok as it is

19:23:15 <JibberJim> looks good danbri

19:23:17 <danbri> ta. hmm can't think of a 'both a driver, ...' rewording that i like; will have to live with the pretentiousness for now.

19:23:21 <danbri> thanks jim

19:23:35 <danbri> I'll adjustwhat I talk about re detailed apps to not overlap with others

19:24:00 * JibberJim has had a very unproductive day

19:31:01 <JimJibber> JimJibber is now known as JibberJim

19:32:37 <JibberJim> aha, my kernal didn't have initrd support!

19:45:55 <dajobe> you know danbri....

19:46:13 <dajobe> your abstract is good, and I want to hear your talk too

19:46:33 <dajobe> but it does mean you'll have to actually give it to a large audience :) A rare event indeed!

19:46:51 <danbri> yeah, i figured it'd be more motivating giving a talk about something i have strong opinions on

19:46:59 <dajobe> yes, that works

19:47:22 <pdigity> danbri: is there a url I could look at?

19:47:22 <danbri> I've done a few 'rdf standards blah blah', but nothing where opinions matter much.

19:47:30 <danbri> only http://rdfweb.org/2003/09/danbri-etcon/abstract.txt

19:50:42 <pdigity> cool. thanks.

19:51:16 <JibberJim> so pdigity, have you decided what you're gonna do yet? FOAF Geo would be good.

20:04:55 <pdigity> JibberJim: gotta run now, more later, but I've been thinking more about lower-level stuff, like working on infrastructure (schemas, middleware, etc). There's just so much (cool stuff) to do. I'll keep you posted...

20:06:12 <ndw> Whee!

20:06:38 <ndw> I'm glad I put the cable modem and the router on the UPS. Power just went.

20:07:11 <ndw> Now, did I remember to charge all three of my laptop batteries when I came back from my last trip?

20:09:22 <oPless> the real question is "how am I going to keep windows from spinning the hard disk up"

20:10:18 * JibberJim has managed to get his kernel to produce a different error, so at least it's progress of sorts

20:12:16 <ndw> Windows?

20:12:19 * ndw laughs heartily

20:12:20 <JibberJim> debian

20:12:45 * ndw starts to think the audible alarm on the UPS is getting a bit irksome, though

20:13:40 <JibberJim> yeah, it always does... can you last 24 hours or whatever's normal for US powercuts...

20:15:41 <oPless> ndw, at least thats something :)

20:15:56 <dajobe> right, I've got 237 words of something

20:19:04 <mortenf> nice, but perhaps to much emphasis on "now"?

20:19:24 <dajobe> hey, it's emerging ;)

20:19:27 <mortenf> :)

20:19:50 * ldodds is looking at vocabs for reviews

20:20:04 <ldodds> trying to judge the merits of: http://www.pmbrowser.info/hublog/archives/000307.html

20:20:11 <ldodds> vs http://ideagraph.net/xmlns/ssr/modules.htm

20:20:25 <ldodds> all I really need at the moment is a rating plus a review

20:20:34 <ldodds> anyone come across anything else in this view?

20:20:43 <ldodds> s/view/vein

20:20:43 <dajobe> depends what you want

20:20:54 <dajobe> I'd say you want to know 1) it is a review - or at least they claim it is

20:20:58 <dajobe> 2) some kind of rating

20:21:04 <ldodds> "5 stars, this is brilliant"

20:21:05 <dajobe> the rest is fluff, or, for humans to read

20:21:44 <ldodds> I may go with Danny's as he's written a schema, but domain of the review is an RSS item

20:21:47 <dajobe> I bet this is close to ratings, advo style etc.

20:22:33 <dajobe> ah, annotations

20:22:38 <dajobe> that's what I was thinking of

20:22:55 <dajobe> especially the accessiblty annotations

20:23:09 * dajobe types while trying to recall acronym that sbp would know

20:23:30 <dajobe> EARL

20:24:06 <dajobe> it uses confidence levels, URIs for the property values

20:24:17 <dajobe> like http://www.w3.org/TR/EARL10/

20:24:31 <ldodds> hmmm, OK I'll have a look

20:24:44 <dajobe> people like text though :)

20:24:57 <ldodds> hence the "hmmm" :)

20:26:03 <dajobe> there's surely something between free-for-all and rvw:rating="7.35"

20:26:38 <dajobe> rvw:thumbs="up | down | middle"

20:27:12 <dajobe> I think the roman emperors only ever had two review states.

20:28:11 <ldodds> I'm limiting people to 1-10, just for kicks. Maybe 1-10 "foaf smileys" :)

20:28:47 <dajobe> those are positive reviews

20:28:57 <dajobe> you need "I hate ... neutral ... I love"

20:29:20 <dajobe> I wouldn't give Battlefield Earth 0 smileys, it deserves negative

20:30:12 <oPless> Battlefield earth ?!

20:30:30 <oPless> thats a great book, and an average film

20:30:32 <dajobe> the film

20:30:36 <dajobe> oh pleeze

20:30:38 <dajobe> it was apalling

20:30:44 <oPless> better than waterworld !

20:30:48 <dajobe> no way!

20:30:48 <ldodds> it's probly one of the worst films I've seen

20:30:54 <ldodds> waterworld was waaay better!

20:30:59 <oPless> heh

20:31:14 <dajobe> "I give it -5 smileys"

20:31:27 <oPless> if you ignore all his scientology cr*p, hes a brilliant scifi author

20:31:45 <oPless> they could have done better on the film, but still, I liked it

20:32:22 <dajobe> cavemen to jet fighter pilots, in 2 hours of teaching. so believable.

20:32:48 <oPless> well. in the book its a bit longer as I remember

20:32:53 <dajobe> "2.4/10 (10,498 votes)" -- IMDB.com

20:33:15 <dajobe> it's #19 in worst films

20:33:26 <dajobe> ooh, #3 is Manos the Hands of Fate

20:33:28 <dajobe> now that was funny

20:34:05 <Jibbler> pumaman is quite funny too, i think

20:34:21 <dajobe> well, I saw the MST3K version of Manos...

20:51:26 * JibberJim comes back to see a debate on if Battlefield Earth or Waterworld was the better film... sounds like a machete or sword for chopping off your own head debate...

20:51:51 <dajobe> waterworld wasn't even on imdb bottom 100

20:52:20 <danbri> waterworld better; battlefield earth funnier.

20:52:28 <dajobe> funny - yes

20:52:42 * JibberJim hasn't seen all of battlefield earth...

20:52:46 <dajobe> hmm, what's irrideamingly bad

20:52:52 <dajobe> for me, A.I.

20:52:57 <dajobe> and Signs

20:52:59 <danbri> the ending of AI, sure.

20:53:08 <danbri> most dissapointing film: The Avengers

20:53:16 <JibberJim> not seen either - Finding Nemo was really good when I saw it on the plane...

20:53:22 <dajobe> there is a theme heere - bad scifi

20:53:28 <Cardinal> Yes, the Avengers was painful.

20:53:32 <ldodds> Avengers disappointing, Signs good

20:53:33 <dajobe> ouch

20:53:40 <dajobe> I'd blanked that one out

20:53:48 * danbri tweaks http://rdfweb.org/2003/09/danbri-etcon/abstract.txt and gives up, just need to speaker blurb etc and will send.

20:54:33 <dajobe> I'm suspecting LXG will replace "most disappointing" :(

20:58:08 <ldodds> not an etcon submission, but wouldn't mind comments on this: http://www.ldodds.com/tmp/ldodds-mb.rdf

20:58:50 <ldodds> this is output from FM 2 include foaf:owns albums, artist, and reviews of the albums

20:59:26 <mortenf> should be foaf:maker instead of dc:creator?

20:59:43 <ldodds> MB use dc:creator for their stuff, so I copied that

20:59:51 <JibberJim> is that school legit leigh?

20:59:54 <mortenf> hmm

20:59:55 <ldodds> I need to add foaf:maker for the FOAF file though

21:00:04 <mortenf> and foaf:name instead of dc:title, perhaps?

21:00:08 <ldodds> nope, thats test data I lifted from someone elses FOAF

21:00:23 <JibberJim> yes, mine... I was concerned I shoulda known ya :-)

21:00:28 <danbri> is this Jena-serialized?

21:00:34 <ldodds> danbri: yep

21:00:45 <mortenf> methinks the rdf:type as attribute is wrong

21:00:56 <mortenf> (makes it a literal)

21:01:00 <danbri> <dc:creator rdf:resource="http://mm.musicbrainz.org/artist/f3e2a7d9-c6bb-4848-95e5-04c0a1e2f511" rdf:type="http://musicbrainz.org/mm/mm-2.1#Artist" dc:title="Orbital"/> is a somewhat obscure syntactic varient, but i guess outside yr control

21:01:13 <ldodds> yeah that's odd. It's the same code that generated both artists

21:01:15 <danbri> I thought that too, but I think the rdf grammer has a corner case for it. dajobe will know...

21:01:18 * edd returns

21:01:21 <edd> danbri, you submitted now?

21:01:38 <danbri> do you have nitpics, devastating critiques etc?

21:01:56 <mortenf> i'm looking forward to hearing that talk :)

21:01:58 * ldodds notes that it does all validate

21:02:02 <edd> no, sounds good to me

21:02:05 <mortenf> hmm, strange

21:02:17 <dajobe> rdf:type as an attribute is the *only one* that takes a URI as an attribute

21:02:27 <mortenf> ok then

21:02:27 <dajobe> s/as an attribute$//

21:02:30 <danbri> not submitted yet

21:02:34 <Cardinal> ldodds: Cool, I'll make a note to generate similar triples when I get to that point with http://mmcc.cx/mbcatalog

21:02:37 * danbri hates giving talks, hoping this one might be fun

21:02:48 <danbri> tried think of something i'd enjoy rambling on about

21:02:51 <ldodds> lord knows why Jena used 2 different variants

21:02:51 <edd> it's pretty much a love in

21:02:52 * dajobe will probably go anyway

21:02:59 <edd> just get your hair died purple and folk will love you

21:03:09 <mortenf> so, no comments on mine? come on, it can't be perfect :)

21:03:14 <Cardinal> And make sure to have a :depiction of it afterwards.

21:03:18 <edd> mortenf: you have a link?

21:03:20 <ldodds> Cardinal: cool. I need to ping Danny to see if he can adjust his schema hasReview property currently has domain of rss:item

21:03:26 <ldodds> hopin he'll loosen that

21:03:56 <dajobe> btw, I just stuck what I submitted at http://ilrt.org/people/cmdjb/2003/09/etcon/

21:03:59 * danbri considers the hair dye thing

21:04:15 <danbri> actually I'd happily dye my hair, except for fear the grey ones would come out luminously different in tone :)

21:04:15 <edd> mortenf: you're assuming i can read n3, which i hate violently :)

21:04:24 <mortenf> heh

21:04:42 <edd> at this rate, we could have a whole FOAF track.

21:04:47 <dajobe> mua ha ha

21:04:49 <edd> so that makes, what, 5 FOAF submissions?

21:05:18 * ldodds goes for a beer

21:05:19 <ldodds> cya

21:05:28 <dajobe> "narrowly on persons" => "narrowly on people"

21:05:30 <danbri> count 'em?

21:05:43 <danbri> mine, mortenf, dajobe, edd, ....whose else?

21:05:43 <mortenf> got it, thx

21:05:49 <danbri> marc canter is doing one

21:05:51 <edd> liz/jim

21:05:56 <danbri> of course

21:06:07 * JibberJim has another one, if I can get something written...

21:06:08 <danbri> libby has a codepiction one nearly finished

21:06:12 <mortenf> marc is? what about?

21:06:18 <JibberJim> bluetooth presence is mine btw.

21:06:21 <danbri> PA, FOAF

21:06:26 <danbri> Liz and Jim: two talks?

21:06:26 <mortenf> ah, of course

21:06:41 <dajobe> mortenf: I wouldn't (myself) start a para with "Also, ..." - might be my style

21:06:43 * danbri may meet Marc in a couple weeks in SF

21:06:58 <mortenf> yeah...

21:07:00 <danbri> have a lunch date, brokered via tribe.net msg facility

21:07:04 <danbri> edd too hopefully

21:07:42 <dajobe> "raw results of such queries available to other user interfaces." - umm? available to other applications or services? Only UIs?

21:08:03 <mortenf> hmm, yeah, applications is prolly better

21:08:09 <edd> my abstract isn't available anywhere as i typed it straight into the form and bashed it off

21:08:21 <danbri> you get it back by email, right?

21:08:31 <edd> danbri: yeah, i guess i must have :)

21:08:31 <JibberJim> of course, I'll never do any bluetooth hacking due to my lack of ability in debian kernel building :-(

21:08:54 <JibberJim> now my package won't even install :-(

21:09:39 <dajobe> mortenf: "The current challenges to reaching the goal" - that's not making sense; the challenenges are of trying to reach a goal ...

21:09:40 <mortenf> jim, third para is a little strange

21:09:56 <mortenf> yep, i didn't really know how to put it

21:10:44 <danbri> jim, best not to call it a 'standard'...

21:10:59 <JibberJim> sorry...

21:11:04 <danbri> maybe: an emerging convention for representing personal data in RDF/XML; it can be ...

21:11:16 <danbri> not the end of the world, but I personally avoid that term

21:11:22 <edd> <foaf:Person><foaf:nick>danbri</foaf:nick><foaf:name>Alistair Campbell</foaf:name></foaf:Person>

21:11:27 <danbri> (dayjob being stds etc.; its a diff kind of beast)

21:11:43 <danbri> the spin is that there's no spin!

21:11:54 <danbri> doh, said the quiet bit loud ... ;)

21:12:09 <JibberJim> yeah I don't like 3rd para, but the how to secure data is important... and GPG and hashing does give that too us.

21:12:26 <danbri> jim, a few line breaks would help (in moz/unix rendering anyway).

21:12:52 <mortenf> should put an "and" before "begin RDF"?

21:13:04 <danbri> should we also ask for a foaf panel sesh? I haven't done much about that, beyond original brief discussion w/ rael

21:13:13 <JibberJim> Does a dew esc-q's in emacs...

21:13:17 <mortenf> and capitalize or drop the "id" from 2Bluetooth id"

21:13:58 <mortenf> good idea, since your talk will likely raise more q's than can be covered there?

21:14:43 <danbri> hopefully

21:14:44 <mortenf> [[ Reaching the goal of having anyone being able to extract useful information presents a number of challenges that generally falls within two categories ...] ?

21:15:22 <danbri> reckon we can leave our abstracts public online afterwards? to tweak/discuss/link etc?

21:15:48 <mortenf> sure

21:19:47 <JimH_> JimH_ is now known as JimH

21:21:33 <danbri> Photo URL In the event that your session is selected, we'll need a high-quality photo of you to use on our web site and print materials. Please provide a URL where such a photo can be found.

21:21:38 <danbri> heh, all mine are blurry! :)

21:21:52 <mortenf> mine are small...

21:22:05 <JibberJim> we'll get mortenf to take shiny new one with his camera...

21:22:09 <mortenf> :)

21:22:16 <JibberJim> or we could just do some with our phones...

21:22:21 <danbri> it's the shinyness I'm trying to avoid!

21:22:42 <danbri> nice blurry, soft focus phonecam pics, good plan...

21:23:00 <danbri> b****cks, a nio. I haven't got a bio...

21:23:03 * danbri rummages

21:23:19 * danbri finds http://rdfweb.org/people/danbri/mini-work-bio.html

21:23:20 * mortenf is writing one atm

21:28:18 <ChrisDodo> ok, so what talks are people submitting? I've done 2 proposals

21:28:54 <JibberJim> foafnaut, and foaf bluetooth presencey stuff.

21:29:32 <ChrisDodo> cool. i've done one on finding your location, and one on interaction design for syndication

21:30:27 <mortenf> hi libby

21:30:35 * JibberJim wonders just how many presentations they're gonna get, as I know like 10 people submitting one, that's a fair percentage of the people I know, extrapolating that out, there's probably like a few million submissions...

21:30:41 <libby> hey mortenf

21:30:42 <mortenf> heh

21:30:47 <libby> yeah

21:30:51 <JibberJim> the review committee's are gonna be very busy!

21:31:03 <libby> foafcon!

21:31:06 <libby> maybe

21:31:21 <JibberJim> oh yeah, I had an email from someone the other day asking if I knew of any foafcon's...

21:31:23 <danbri> bleh, still writing (bloody bio)

21:31:35 <ChrisDodo> or does that mean we all live in a little bubble, with Etcon in the middle? ;)

21:31:42 <danbri> I would love to do a foafcon. At some point. It's too good a name to waste though!

21:31:44 <danbri> (foafcon1)

21:32:56 <mortenf> ok, this will be submitted in 15 unless issues are raised; i'm still not happy with the 2nd to last para though: http://www.wasab.dk/morten/2003/09/et04.web

21:32:56 <JibberJim> but when we have foafcon6 won't that mean the worlds in real trouble, or did it go ther other way

21:33:22 <mortenf> dajobe, thanks for your comments

21:34:35 <dajobe> we should get these talks 'given' in some way whether or not they are accepted

21:34:44 <dajobe> as irc if need be

21:34:45 <danbri> "especially with the existing community"

21:34:50 <danbri> drop the 'the', morten?

21:34:59 <mortenf> ok

21:35:03 <danbri> it's a pretty long sentence actually

21:35:07 <danbri> (he says, hypocritically :)

21:35:15 <JibberJim> We can give them at foafcon1...

21:35:17 <mortenf> yeah, i'll see where i can break it

21:35:18 <ChrisDodo> tom coates published some slightly tidyed notes for the proposals that weren't accepted last year

21:35:27 <ChrisDodo> s/the/his/

21:35:50 <dajobe> Yes, I'll be doom if emacs ever gets a style checker inside it. (I guess there is probably one somewhere; but I'm not looking for it!)

21:35:52 <dajobe> domed

21:36:02 * dajobe hits the oo key

21:36:40 <edd> style checkers are largely hopeless

21:36:57 <edd> i've seen more errors introduced through slavish adherence to those damn green wiggles than problems solved

21:37:16 <edd> average sentence length and a few rules of thumb are reasonable enough metrics to go by

21:37:30 * JibberJim swears loudly at debian

21:37:35 * dajobe M-x count-sentence-length

21:37:48 <edd> JibberJim: that's the spirit

21:38:09 * danbri elects edd Style Checker

21:38:29 <edd> danbri: oooh no you dont

21:38:33 <edd> ^'

21:38:48 <dajobe> ha ha

21:38:54 <danbri> _on't_

21:39:26 * edd already has enough of this sort of thing checking the reports his wife writes

21:39:32 * danbri elects Edd FOAF's new chief checker of style

21:39:36 <danbri> <- verbosity flamebait

21:39:50 <edd> unfortunately her bosses are so convinced they're right, she has to write them according to the various errors they espouse.

21:39:55 <JibberJim> I discover my kernal compilation didn't have initrd support, so I put it in, and you can see it load the ram disk, but then it still fails with the unable to mount root :-(

21:40:03 <edd> things like single quotes outside of doubles.

21:40:19 <edd> JibberJim: is your kernel source the debian patched source? if not, initrd won't work

21:40:28 <JibberJim> yes it's the debian one.

21:40:32 <edd> JibberJim: i should have told you this earlier. initrd only works with the debian patched versh

21:42:50 * JibberJim is going to start all over again with a new download...

21:43:49 <JibberJim> at least the windows XServer works which is more than the debian one...

21:43:54 * danbri welcomes Jim to the (buy a mac) seamless and smooth (buy a mac) world of (buy a mac) modern unices

21:44:20 <JibberJim> can you run Konqueror and win IE next to each other on the single machine?

21:45:01 <JibberJim> anyway they don't make nippled ibooks.

21:46:12 * JibberJim downloads a new kernel source...

21:48:09 * mortenf fills out the submission form

21:54:14 <JimH_> JimH_ is now known as JimH

22:03:46 * danbri smiles at http://www.google.com/search?q=%22fear+of+a%22+planet&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

22:03:56 * danbri cringes at bio writing

22:05:40 <mortenf> it's just 50 words... :)

22:06:05 <JibberJim> and you've already got one...

22:09:51 <danbri> it isn't 50 words tho

22:13:21 * danbri blahs 51 words

22:14:11 <JibberJim> join 2 together!

22:14:17 <edd> don't get hung up about it, they won't notice

22:15:27 * danbri actually quite likes shortening stuff; I rarely force myself to both

22:15:28 <danbri> er

22:16:03 <edd> sense optional too?

22:16:20 * danbri notes their example (Rael) is nearly 100 words

22:16:25 <danbri> sense -- i hope so

22:17:12 * JimH notices libby is at No. 14 on popdex - poptastic!

22:19:45 <danbri> libby++ #hmm i never got to no. 14 in popdex! it must be broken...

22:20:23 <danbri> what did you folks put for audience level?

22:20:36 <danbri> general, experienced, entry?

22:20:41 <mortenf> entry

22:20:42 <danbri>http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/et2004/create/e_sess#form

22:20:44 * JibberJim had never seen popdex before.

22:20:53 <danbri> podex, blogdex, and there's a few others

22:21:01 <libby> !

22:21:08 <edd> we should make dexdex

22:21:10 <libby> yeah, probly broke

22:21:19 <danbri> feedster most useful such beast imho

22:21:21 * libby writes http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/discovery/2003/09/etcon/index.txt, gets depressed

22:21:34 <libby> it's like, the 12th version, and still not soi hgood

22:21:42 <libby> anyway, enough!

22:21:43 * JibberJim wonders how to get libby 2.5 more points...

22:22:16 <mortenf> erh, a link?

22:22:41 * JibberJim doubts it looks at my site though...

22:23:10 <JimH> popdex must be broken, my feed turns up at No. 92 for no obvious reasons!

22:24:08 <mortenf> looks good libby, although i think i'd drop the "foaf:depicted"

22:24:25 <mortenf> perhaps mention some 6 degrees?

22:24:36 <libby> yeah, it doesnt exist

22:24:44 <libby> I was wondering about that

22:24:47 <libby> thanks mortenf

22:26:15 <danbri> I assume you're all going for the 45 minute slot...?

22:26:21 <mortenf> yep

22:26:34 <danbri> they do 90, but i'm not slick enough to entertain for that long!

22:26:40 * danbri figures if it can't be done in 45, ...

22:27:00 <mortenf> i put feb 11 for prefered date (for no reason)

22:27:10 <danbri> I put 'any'

22:27:19 * mortenf damns http: preferred

22:27:21 <danbri> being less constrained might make the talk easier to accept?

22:27:32 <mortenf> yep, also added something like that

22:27:54 <mortenf> the title doesn't match the subtitle (preferred/available)...

22:28:49 * danbri conferred w/ DanC and is using W3C affiliation, email etc on this

22:28:54 * danbri never sure when to, or not...

22:30:46 <danbri> ok submitted http://rdfweb.org/2003/09/danbri-etcon/abstract.txt

22:31:23 <JibberJim> because it's foaf? surely w3 appearances are good for the w3?

22:31:50 <edd> because it might make the chances of acceptance higher

22:31:58 <JibberJim> ah, good point edd... :-)

22:32:01 <danbri> they are good for W3C, I think yeah. But FOAF isn't a work product of W3C. And I wouldn't be there representing the formal stds track work of the Consortium.

22:32:20 <danbri> I am also very wary of being perceived to be exploiting my W3C position to further such goofy side projects.

22:32:34 <danbri> Vice-versa is fine, of course :)

22:33:39 <danbri> Also FOAF or the even-vaguer rdfweb umbrella is tinged with mischief and folly, so sometimes better to keep at arms length from day job

22:46:54 <edd> danbri: i find no less folly in what the W3C pursues than in rdfweb experiments

22:48:56 * danbri is a big fan of folly

22:49:06 <danbri> (though there was no excuse for XML Schema, really)

22:54:13 <mortenf> nn, thanks all

23:16:07 <danbri> I'm also filling out a proposal for "FOAF, social software and the Semantic Web panel discussion"

23:17:09 * Jibbler doesn't know where to submit his PieSpy paper to

23:17:21 <danbri> for etcon? http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/et2004/create/e_sess#form

23:17:47 <Jibbler> nah, i already looked at that one but i'm on holiday then

23:18:07 <Jibbler> shame!

23:19:19 <Jibbler> cos the only one i can currently think of putting it in is in the czech republic, which is probably not as nice a place as etcon :)

23:19:47 <Jibbler> and that's a visualization conference rather than anything more networky

23:20:11 <JimH> the beer will almost certainly be better in the czech republic

23:20:18 <Jibbler> i don't do beer

23:20:28 <JimH> ah

23:20:42 <danbri> Are you kidding? I'd much rather go to czech republic than CA

23:20:46 * danbri going there next week anyway

23:20:52 <edd> staropriman (sp?) has found its way to york eventually

23:20:54 <danbri> (states)

23:20:59 * edd too

23:21:01 <Jibbler> rather go to CA ... dunno, maybe it's the whole language thing

23:21:07 <JimH> blonde czech women? architecture?

23:21:29 <Jibbler> although, on the conference web site, it says "We usually have a nice weather in this period, suny and temperature just above zero. It can happen that snowfalls and winds could be here for couple of days with a possibility temperature fall down. Please, be prepared for such weather changes."

23:21:39 <Jibbler> certainly sounds warmer in CA!

23:21:50 <Jibbler> plus i'd get a chance to bump into some friends over there

23:22:51 <edd> frriends, yeah, that's important

23:23:06 * edd only goes to conferences really to see his friends, these days

23:23:15 <danbri> likewise

23:23:16 <edd> aside from the one i chair, that is :)

23:23:21 <Jibbler> conference to nice place == free holiday :)

23:23:23 <danbri> and if i wasn't so unfriendly, to make new ones...

23:23:45 <Jibbler> maybe i'll even meet some of you one day...

23:23:45 <danbri> rarely learn much from the papers, attention span too flakey to learn at pace of reading

23:23:54 <danbri> that'd be cool

23:23:56 <danbri> foafcon1

23:24:15 * danbri writing a quick abstract for a panel session...

23:24:15 <Jibbler> i've met one person in this channel, that's all

23:24:17 <edd> danbri: i hear you re atn span

23:24:54 * danbri counts the tabs and windows visible on his monitors

23:25:04 <danbri> not given to thinking about just one thing any more...

23:25:16 <Morbus> danbri: heh, heh, exactly.

23:25:17 <Morbus> which is the primary reason I still use dialup.

23:25:24 <Jibbler> i have a mad setup here

23:25:27 <Morbus> I have no need to go faster, because I'm always slower than the page display.

23:25:30 * edd not given to achieving anything any more ... :-(

23:25:38 * JibberJim would also rather to .cz than .us

23:25:54 <edd> JibberJim: i hope you paid ISO for use of those codes

23:26:07 <Jibbler> what's good about cz if i don't like beer, then? (incidentally, that's actually a selling point on the conference web site)

23:26:19 * libby toasts co-ownership of geek-flat, signs off

23:26:23 <libby> cheers all, nn

23:26:50 <Jibbler> my sister appears to have turned her car upside down :-/

23:26:59 * danbri toasts new landlord's reign of terror

23:27:03 <verbosus> Jibbler: Prague is enough in itself to justify cz

23:27:11 <Jibbler> the conference is in prague

23:27:19 <JibberJim> Yeah edd, I'm implementing an SMS payment solution for them... you just text the codes you want to use to 81111 and it sends back a licence via sms...

23:27:25 <edd> prague sadly being polluted by british stag parties... :(

23:27:37 <edd> JibberJim: clever!

23:27:51 <Jibbler> oh, it's actually in Plzen, close to prague

23:27:57 <Jibbler> i can't even say Plzen!

23:28:06 <danbri> wanna check another abstract?

23:28:07 <danbri> [[

23:28:10 <edd> If you drink the beer, you might be able to.

23:28:17 <danbri> FOAF exploits W3C's XML and RDF technology to provide a vendor neutral platform for the publication and interchange of rich, descriptive information about people, their relationships, and pretty much anything else we care to describe.

23:28:18 <danbri> However the rise of FOAF raises as many questions as it answers. Who should do all this describing? Can the articulation of a previously unclassified relationship change, damage or reinforce that relationship? What business models are there which support the use of FOAF as an interchange format between Web sites and services? For that matter, what business models are there for social networking sites at all? Do we have adequate

23:28:20 <danbri> technological, legal and social machinery to deal with the privacy and other risks associated with machine-readable profiles?

23:28:23 <danbri> ]]

23:28:27 * danbri ran out of ideas at this point

23:28:43 <danbri> it went from somewhat upbeat to a bit downbeat

23:28:44 <edd> Will Brian run off to Germany with Siobhan?

23:28:52 * JibberJim spots that the scsi driver I was installing, and the one actually being used by the rescue boot was different...

23:29:07 <edd> JibberJim: that would do it..

23:29:15 <danbri> seem ok for a panel sesh?

23:29:38 <edd> danbri: looks ok from here, maybe a bit worthy

23:29:47 <danbri> in what sense?

23:29:53 <danbri> too boosterish re f**f

23:30:00 * JibberJim would think of good panel questions now, and then on the day forget them all :-(

23:30:03 <edd> well, just complex wording

23:30:13 <edd> [[ Can the articulation of a previously unclassified relationship change, damage or reinforce that relationship? ]]

23:30:21 <edd> not exactly a catchy debating topic

23:30:34 <danbri> yeah, i had someone's weblog comments in mind there... apparently it's a hot topic in certain circles.

23:30:36 <edd> Make it a bit more sensational.

23:30:37 <danbri> rephrasing.

23:33:34 <danbri> Are we classifying the unclassifiable when we introduce new kinds of FOAF relationships?

23:33:39 <danbri> Are we creating a monster with FOAF-for-dating bluetooth apps?

23:34:15 <danbri> How big is your FOAF file?

23:34:22 * danbri bored with writing. can i go home now?

23:34:34 <JibberJim> yes danbri, you can go home now.

23:34:49 <JibberJim> now you're home - more writing please...

23:40:12 <danbri> [[

23:40:12 <danbri> FOAF exploits W3C's XML and RDF technology to provide a vendor neutral platform for the publication and interchange of rich, descriptive information about people, their relationships, and pretty much anything else we care to describe.

23:40:12 <danbri> However the rise of FOAF raises as many questions as it answers. Who should do all this describing? What can we do if they lie? Are we classifying the unclassifiable when we introduce new kinds of FOAF relationships? What business models are there which support the use of FOAF as an interchange format between Web sites and services? For that matter, what business models are there for social networking sites at all? Do we have a

23:40:15 <danbri> dequate technological, legal and social machinery to deal with the privacy and other risks associated with machine-readable profiles? Are we creating a monster with FOAF-for-dating bluetooth apps?

23:40:18 <danbri> How big is your FOAF file? Does anyone remember sixdegrees.com? What does RDF (or XML) buy us? How can I protect my data?

23:40:23 <danbri> (exact topics for panel session would be tuned to recent hot topics and the expected participants)

23:40:31 <danbri> ]]

23:40:33 <danbri> any objections?

23:40:35 <danbri> short blurb

23:40:37 <danbri> [[

23:40:39 <danbri> The rise of FOAF and social networking interop tools raise both technical and social questions. This panel will focus on the relationships between the two, bringing together technical, academic, activist and commercial perspectives on the issues.

23:40:43 <danbri> ]]

23:43:08 <JibberJim> who do you imagine would sit on the panel?

23:43:28 <danbri> depends who gets in

23:43:30 * JibberJim has no objectoins though...

23:43:36 * danbri will spin a bottle

23:43:53 <JibberJim> is that in you meinbild.ch personality?

23:57:23 * danbri sends proposal

23:57:51 <danbri> OK that took 40 mins. not ideal but not too bad.