Friend of a Friend (FOAF) IRC Chat Logs for 2003-12-12

00:00:15 <danbri> foaf:page and foaf:topic are inverses, btw.

00:00:20 <Davey> I see!

00:00:26 <danbri> hope that helps

00:00:29 <Davey> yeah, I read that :)

00:00:59 <danbri> see http://rdfweb.org/topic/UsingFoafTopic btw

00:01:03 <Davey> so does foaf:page have the same domain as foaf:homepage? (and in mind, the same level in the RDF/XML Tree)

00:01:21 <danbri> I forget

00:01:30 <danbri> sorry, i have to go... prep for talk

00:01:53 <danbri> i thing domain of page is Resource; and that domain of homepage is current Agent , but that is too specific needs liberalisng.

00:02:42 <Davey> thanks :)

00:39:51 * edd going to try and do a live foafbot demo from here

00:39:55 <edd> foafbot, libby's anme

00:39:55 <foafbot> I don't know how to find the property 'anme'

00:39:57 <edd> foafbot, libby's name

00:39:58 <foafbot> libby's name is Libby Miller, according to Dave Beckett, Earle Martin, Jo Walsh, Morten Frederiksen; and anonymous sources

00:39:58 <foafbot> libby's name is libby, according to anonymous source

00:40:41 <libby> :)

00:40:54 <libby> !foaf:name libby

00:40:57 <edd> i'll be using danbri's machine though

00:41:07 <whwhwhwh> Libby Miller Libby Miller

00:41:08 <whwhwhwh> Libby Miller Libby Miller

00:41:09 <whwhwhwh> Libby Miller Libby Miller

00:41:10 <whwhwhwh> Libby Miller Libby Miller

00:41:10 <edd> dancon is talking at the moment

00:41:11 <whwhwhwh> libby libby

00:41:12 <whwhwhwh> libby libby

00:41:13 <whwhwhwh> libby libby

00:41:14 <whwhwhwh> libby libby

00:41:15 <whwhwhwh> Libby Hammond Libby Hammond

00:41:16 <whwhwhwh> Libby Hammond Libby Hammond

00:41:18 <whwhwhwh> Libby Hammond Libby Hammond

00:41:20 <libby> heh, sorry

00:41:22 <edd> nice ;)

00:41:26 <libby> needs a bit o tweaking

00:51:25 <Davey> http://rdfweb.org/topic/UsingFoafTopic <--- the last example, is that the only way you would every likely use foaf:page ?

00:52:06 <Davey> s/every/ever

01:31:07 <edd> danbri: thanks :-))

04:32:24 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

04:39:19 <adr> Are URI's all you can do with foaf:interest at this point?

06:03:07 <kota> Hmm, nifty will start cocolog service for not nifty people. Seems nice.

06:03:41 <kota> Paying only 250 yen, it is the half price of typepad basic.

10:58:10 * maxf waves

10:58:32 <maxf> still getting up early danbri, or are you back?

11:00:09 <danbri> I'm beginning to understand why early-risers think they're better people

11:00:14 <danbri> We are!

11:00:25 <maxf> :)

11:00:26 <danbri> bow before my pre-6am consciousness, mortals

11:00:41 <libby> uhoh, the lack of sleep is getting to him

11:00:44 * mattb wonders what early risers do with all that extra time

11:00:57 <dajobe> extra sleep

11:01:00 <maxf> sleep early, mattb

11:01:09 <mattb> that's what i always suspected

11:01:19 <mattb> my mum's an early riser due to a dad who was career army

11:01:22 <mattb> but she goes to bed at 10pm

11:01:29 * danbri only woke up to put on some mp3s

11:01:55 <danbri> also i was dreaming of all the stuff i haven't got done, which is a bad use of sleep

11:02:23 <dajobe> try dreaming of all the great stuff you have done. That should make you sleep well.

11:02:57 <danbri> thanks

11:03:46 * danbri zzz ...oooOO("Projects started: 10000; active projects: 60000; completed projects: hmm... ")

11:04:00 <danbri> or somesuch ;)

11:05:46 <dajobe> the great thing is with FOAF, other people are completing them :)

11:06:22 <danbri> yeah, much happier since I realised things work better that way :)

11:27:59 <libby> jibbler? where did you get your postcode data from?

11:30:08 <Jibbler> the postcode list was off some site on the wb

11:30:09 <Jibbler> web

11:30:24 <danbri> is it free in terms of licensing?

11:30:34 <Jibbler> i believe that list was

11:31:11 <Jibbler> the coordinates are from multimap/streetmap and are rounded to be 100 times less accurate

11:31:26 <Jibbler> the lat/long was calculated by a program

11:31:45 <Jibbler> the OS gridref was contributed by someone else (and is based on the x,y coords)

11:32:35 <dajobe> loggerf, pointer?

11:32:35 <dajobe> See http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/foaf/2003-12-12#T11-32-35

11:35:57 <kota> foaf:postcode?

11:36:06 <kota> oh, never mind.

11:38:39 <danbri> foafbot, analyze danbri and edd

11:38:39 <foafbot> Dan Brickley (INTP) and Edd Dumbill (ENFJ) could learn a lot from each other.

11:38:39 <foafbot> Computed using information from Edd Dumbill; and anonymous sources.

11:38:57 <libby> heh

11:45:32 * danbri wonders if Davey is involved in http://simon.incutio.com/archive/2003/12/05/phpCommunitySite

11:45:41 <danbri> via http://www.ldodds.com/blog/archives/000096.html

11:53:41 <ldodds> morning

11:53:58 <dajobe> hello leigh

11:54:22 <ldodds> what's this foafml malarkey then?

11:55:05 <dajobe> wtf?

11:55:18 <dajobe> google knows of www.foafml.com

11:55:18 <ldodds>http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/foaf/2003-12-11.html#T10-54-04

11:55:39 <dajobe> Administrative Contact:

11:55:39 <dajobe> Briggs, Graham graham@firevision.co.uk

11:55:50 <ldodds> that's it, I wondered whether anyone had unearthed any more info

11:56:04 <dajobe> there's a phone number :)

11:56:08 <ldodds> heh

12:15:47 <dino> foafbot, analyze danbri and dino

12:15:48 <foafbot> Dan Brickley (INTP) and Dean Jackson (INTJ) haven't paid their shrink fees, try again some other time.

12:15:48 <foafbot> Computed using information from anonymous sources.

12:16:01 <dino> foafbot, spell analyse correctly

12:16:09 <libby> heh, hello dino :)

12:16:15 <dino> hi libby!

12:16:33 <danbri> foafbot, picture of Dean Jackson

12:16:34 <foafbot> Picture at http://www.picdiary.com/barcelona/conf/dean_libby.jpg -- according to anonymous source

12:16:48 <danbri> foafbot, picture of Dean Jackson and Libby Miller?

12:16:48 <foafbot> Picture at http://www.picdiary.com/barcelona/conf/dean_libby.jpg -- according to anonymous source

12:16:52 <danbri> easy one

12:17:02 <danbri> !paths Dean Jackson, Dan Brickley

12:17:02 <whwhwhwh> try !picpath <name1>,<name2> to find connections between people via images

12:17:07 <danbri> !picpath Dean Jackson, Dan Brickley

12:17:18 <danbri> is it thinking?

12:17:29 <libby> I think so. it's abit slow at the moment

12:17:39 <dino> i find it hard to imagine we are not codepicted

12:17:41 <libby> it gets tired

12:17:45 <danbri> foafbot, analyze danbri and Dean Jackson

12:17:45 <foafbot> Dan Brickley (INTP) and Dean Jackson (INTJ) haven't paid their shrink fees, try again some other time.

12:17:45 <foafbot> Computed using information from anonymous sources.

12:18:15 <whwhwhwh> Dean Jackson to Dan Brickley via Libby Miller

12:18:16 <whwhwhwh> in 2 steps

12:18:17 <whwhwhwh> see http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/discovery/2002/02/paths/byname.jsp?name=Dean+Jackson&name2=Dan+Brickley

12:18:36 <danbri> dino, we're probably codepicted, it just doesn't know that yet

12:18:48 <danbri> http://svn.usefulinc.com/svn/repos/branches/foafbot/foafbot-twisted/src/mbti.py for folks curious re mbti stuff

12:19:05 <dajobe> # myers-briggs rubbish

12:19:47 <dajobe> how did the demoing go yesterday?

12:20:26 <dino> danbri, have the w3c booth bunnies been showing foafnaut. I provided them with link.

12:20:29 <dino> ?

12:20:31 <danbri> what's yours, dave?

12:20:39 <danbri> not sure

12:21:58 <dajobe> mine's IRDF

12:22:32 <danbri> heh

12:22:52 <danbri> foafbot, analyze danbri and danbri

12:22:53 <foafbot> Dan Brickley (INTP) and Dan Brickley (INTP) have similar personality types.

12:22:53 <foafbot> Computed using information from anonymous sources.

12:23:01 <danbri> nss!

12:29:15 <Davey> danbri: no.

13:55:59 <ldodds> hi edd, how was the demo?

13:56:37 <edd> hola. not bad thanks

14:58:36 <Davey> Hmm, shouldn't foaf:gender be in the domain of foaf:Person only?!

14:58:49 <edd> RS232 connectors have gender

14:58:54 <edd> so do Cows

14:59:04 <libby> and bender

14:59:06 <libby> and data

14:59:30 <Davey> Hmm... so not only foaf:Person?

14:59:40 <libby> no, Agent I think

15:00:13 <Davey> ok, I have it this way so far, is 6 lines OK to paste?

15:02:28 <Davey> make that 3 lines :)

15:02:37 <Davey> foaf:Agent - name, maker, depiction, fundedBy, logo, page, theme, dnaChecksum, title, nick, givenname, phone, mbox, mbox_sha1sum, gender, jabberID, aimChatID, icqChatID, yahooChatID, msnChatID, homepage, weblog, made, holdsAccount

15:02:38 <Davey> foaf:Person - geekcode, firstName, surname, family_name, plan, img, myersBriggs, workplaceHomepage, workInfoHomepage, schoolHomepage, knows, interest, topic_interest, publications, currentProject, pastProject, based_near

15:02:38 <Davey> foaf:Group - member, membershipClass

15:03:18 <Davey> foaf:Organization has no properties not in foaf:Agent.

15:27:21 <ldodds> Davey, a class has any property which it is explicitly in the domain of, plus any property that its superclasses are in the domain of, up to and including Resource.

15:27:46 <Davey> yeah, I understand this.

15:27:48 <ldodds> so, for example a foaf:Person can have a foaf:page

15:27:56 <libby> hence the results of rosco...

15:34:06 <ldodds> I assume you're staying "within" the FOAF NS. Otherwise foaf:Person can also have all properties of a SpatialThing plus stuff from the contact namespace (e.g. nearestAirport).

15:35:58 <ldodds> After tinkering for ages with an object friendly layer in the F-Matic Mark2, I've decided to throw it out. It was too brittle. Either that or code-generate the class from the schema(s).

15:40:17 <Davey> ldodds: mostly I'm staying in it. For foaf:page I put in some necessary DC stuff for example

15:40:31 <Davey> if people want more customizeability, they can extend the class and overwrite the methods they need too

15:47:59 <swh> swh is now known as swh_coffee

15:52:11 <Davey> are there specific values that foaf:gender can have? like should it be "Male" "Female" "Other"?

15:52:21 * Davey reads properly

15:52:22 <Davey> ignore me :D

15:54:29 <Davey> there should be a new <foaf:holdsAccount> for each account, right?

15:55:38 <Davey> hmm.

15:58:49 * Davey notes that if this class works out, you guys could use it to generate examples for every foaf element

16:08:11 <ldodds> Davey: yes, there should be a foaf:holdsAccount for each online account

16:08:16 <ldodds> same as foaf:knows per person

16:08:19 <Davey> ldodds: thanks :)

16:08:23 <Davey> thats what I was thinking :)

16:08:53 <Davey> now I understand the striping... how do object, predicate and subject relate to the stripes? this is what I don't understand yet :/

16:09:50 <ldodds> subject, predicate, object -> I, know, you -> Resource, Property, Resource

16:12:04 <Davey> so in the striping, foaf:person = subject, foaf:knows = predicate, foaf:person = object ?

16:14:43 <ldodds> yep

16:16:16 * Davey is starting to get the RDF element of RDF/XML :)

16:16:57 <Davey> my apidoc for this is impressive

16:17:24 <Davey> each element states the foafstatus (stable, unstable, testing) and a link to the FOAF spec for it :)

16:19:16 <Davey> heh, its 16KB already

16:19:27 <Davey> 543 LOC

16:28:06 <Davey> ok, foaf:weblog is a foaf:document *thinks*

16:29:27 <Davey> ok, nevermind :)

16:30:06 <ldodds> you don't have to explicitly have a foaf:Document resource in there. just an rdf:resource attribute on the weblog property is OK

16:30:27 <Davey> yeah, thats what I just realised :)

16:31:30 <Davey> http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/#term_made <-- ok, that makes no sense

16:31:36 <Davey> read the last sentence of the description

16:32:11 <Davey> heh, could foaf:maker contain foaf:Persons for my rents? :)

16:32:29 <ldodds> looks like a typo, should by foaf:maker which points to the relevant DC related discussion

16:32:45 <Davey> yeah :)

16:33:36 <Davey> Hmm, so <foaf:made rdf:resource="foo" /> says that the foaf:Agent -> made -> foo ?

16:33:49 <ldodds> yep

16:33:56 <Davey> OK, yay.

16:35:16 * Davey should be pretty good with FOAF by the end of this. heh

16:36:42 <Davey> ok, in *theory* theres no reason a person should ever call a foaf:holdsAccount explicitly? it's implicitly added with a call to foaf:onlineAccount or foaf:onlineChatAccount

16:37:03 * ldodds notices that foaf:owns didn't make it into the schema

16:38:07 <ldodds> in an object based view you'd probably have thing.holdsAccount(typeOfOnlineAccount)

16:38:13 <ldodds> so yes, I think so

16:38:17 <Davey> ARGH! no onlineAccount or onlineChatAccount methods. Wonder why not.

16:39:01 <Davey> ldodds: from all the googleing I've done, it seems that thing.msnChatID for example is correct... though I did wonder if it should be in a holdsAccount

16:39:51 <Davey> 608 LOC. Wow.

16:41:17 <ldodds> yeah there's two ways of doing this. There are specific properties for the various services, e.g. msnChatID

16:41:29 <ldodds> but this requires us to add a new property for each different service

16:41:34 <Davey> and those need no holdsAccount?

16:41:38 <ldodds> whereas OnlineAccount is more generic

16:41:43 <Davey> yeah, this I understand.

16:41:54 <Davey> Just not sure if msnChatID et al; imply the holdsAccount

16:42:42 <Davey> does foaf:OnlineAccount *need* an rdf:type?

16:43:19 <ldodds> I'm not sure. I must admit that I use the simpler properties in the FOAF-a-Matic. They're also inverse functional, so arguably more useful to scutters at the moment

16:43:32 <Davey> :)

16:43:56 <ldodds> No, that's redundant in the example

16:45:24 <Davey> yes, I get that :)

16:45:28 <Davey> but in general?

16:49:54 <ldodds> sorry, distracted. In general what?

17:02:12 <Davey> ldodds: if its not one of the online*Accounts

17:09:46 <ldodds> if its not one of the online accounts you don't need holdsAccount, just the property

17:16:04 <swh_coffee> swh_coffee is now known as swh

20:31:00 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

21:04:59 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

21:13:03 <Davey> PEAR::XML_FOAF is now 635 Lines of Code (including apidoc) and ~20KB.

21:29:50 <Davey> 716LOC and only now starting on the foaf:Person stuff... except for a few that I already did that is.

21:31:13 <JimH_> JimH_ is now known as JimH

22:32:22 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey