Friend of a Friend (FOAF) IRC Chat Logs for 2004-03-13

00:05:23 <Remosi> what is foaf:sha1 used for?

00:10:10 <Remosi> should foaf:gender be CaseInsensitiveProperty?

00:15:25 <Remosi>http://coders.meta.net.nz/xmlns/2004/03/xfoaf

00:15:30 <Remosi> There we go, comments anyone?

00:16:45 <crschmidt> Are names always case-insensitive? I'm not sure how other languages deal with case

00:17:24 <Remosi> I was wondering about that

00:17:42 <Remosi> hence the request for clarification :)

00:18:57 <Remosi> maybe I should comment them out

00:19:19 <crschmidt> oh, the comments don't show up for me...

00:19:34 <crschmidt> er... yeah. i don't see comments there.

00:19:40 * crschmidt probably missed something, been gone most of the day

00:19:47 <Remosi> heh

00:21:42 <Remosi> now I have to hack my smusher to understand these new properties

00:49:06 <Remosi> I love in postgres you can create indexes of function's of columns.

01:36:09 <Talliesin> Hmm. That's disturbing.

01:36:39 <Talliesin> I just tried out plink for the first time, and I'm only 2 steps away from some of the people I killfile.

01:36:47 <Talliesin> FOAF is bad and must be stopped! :)

01:41:35 <Remosi> ROFL.

01:42:46 <Talliesin> I put all this effort into avoiding people and then along comes a bunch of smartasses who go "let's use the semantic web to reveal the connections between people". Well thanks a bloody lot.

01:43:38 <Remosi> well

01:43:42 <Remosi> you just need to find the people in the middle

01:43:44 <Remosi> hunt them down

01:43:46 <Remosi> and hurt them

01:43:54 <Remosi> they'll stop being your friend

01:44:07 <Remosi> and voila, the people you kill file are now further away!

01:44:14 <Talliesin> See, they're nice people, they've just made some poor judgements.

01:44:39 <Remosi> well

01:44:49 <Remosi> perhaps you can explain that during the torture phase above.

01:44:52 <Talliesin> And I do my best to educate them.

01:53:01 <Talliesin> Actually sooner or later the traits that lead to my killfiling in the first place will bring matters to a conclusion.

05:58:45 <crschmidt> meh. the rdf validator is broken again.

06:00:57 <kota> i guess not broken, the service is down.

06:01:55 <kota> > MIT Scheduled Systems Outage 13-15 March

06:01:59 <kota> > Many services will be suspended but the majority of the W3C Web site will remain accessible. Mail sent to W3C archives will be queued and posted when the move is complete.

06:02:39 <crschmidt> ah, okay

06:23:00 * crschmidt creates a geek code

08:29:14 <danbri> yay, got rubyrdf+expat working on laptop again

08:29:18 <danbri> spec update here we come

08:29:36 <danbri> get yer last minute bloatware requests in...

08:31:59 <ericP> ok, you asked for it

08:33:57 <ericP> since partial understanding (erasure, monotinicity) seems unpalatable to some folks, an IDREFS called needs that lists the statement ids that understanding of this term requires

08:34:05 <ericP> <rdf:about

08:34:50 <ericP> <rdf:RDF-and-a-half><rdf:Description rdf:about="trinket1">

08:35:31 <ericP> <sale-exception>tuesdays</sale-exception>

08:35:41 <ericP> strike that

08:35:54 <ericP> <sale-exception ID="s1">tuesdays</sale-exception>

08:36:42 <ericP> <sale-exception ID="s2">sundays</sale-exception>

08:37:07 <ericP> <price rdf:needs="s1 s2" rdf:resource="sale-price"/>

08:37:34 <ericP> </rdf:Description></rdf:RDF-and-a-half>

08:37:36 <danbri> damn, thought nobody'd be listening!

08:37:38 <danbri> hi ericp

08:38:15 * danbri defers that one to the SW Best Practices WG

08:38:35 <ericP> heya, i was just lecturing on the need of partial understanding when acpriciously looking at the properties you understand in a graph

08:38:43 <ericP> got some feedback

08:39:47 <ericP> thought this rdf1.5 or notRDF idea was an alternative so that people could see what they'd have to do if they didn't publish under such rules

08:40:45 * danbri not following, but brain not entirely booted yet

08:40:46 <ericP> it's kind of a neet idea: draw small circles around the bits that a consumer must understand.

08:42:03 <ericP> <rdf:Description><foaf:mbox rdf:resource="joe">

08:42:05 <ericP> <foaf:p1 rdf:resource="v1">

08:42:52 <ericP> <foaf:made><rss:Feed rdf:about="feed1">

08:43:08 <ericP> <rss:p2 rss:resource="v2"/>

08:43:13 <ericP> <///////>

08:43:42 <ericP> allows an RSS feed to interpret p2 without knowing anything about the rest of the graph.

08:44:45 <ericP> this is only valid if p1 does not change the interpretion of p2 (assuming the RSS software didn't know anything about foaf:p1)

08:45:55 <ericP> if it did, you'd have to re-spell p2 and attach semantics to the new spelling that required the understanding of p1

08:45:59 <ericP> or violate RDF

08:46:10 <ericP> i'm showing a way to violate RDF

09:27:53 <danbri> ok, http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/#term_primaryTopic

09:27:58 <danbri> more to follow over weekend.

09:28:10 <danbri> just proof that the spec does get updated from time to time...

09:59:23 * danbri adds http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/#term_tipjar

09:59:27 <danbri> ...doing the easy ones first

10:01:29 <kota> whoa, nice.

10:07:27 * Jibbler releases PieSpy 0.2.4

10:15:20 * libby waves

10:20:34 <danbri> hi lib

10:22:06 <libby> hows the schema?

10:22:30 <danbri> adding PPD now

10:22:43 <libby> cool

10:22:46 <danbri> i expect it'll be a bit rough over weekend, there are always buglets

10:23:35 <libby> good to get it moving though :)

10:24:06 <danbri> yeah

10:24:20 <danbri> i got expat working w/ ruby again

10:24:43 <danbri> spec is very not wf xhtml currently

10:25:03 <danbri>http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/#term_PersonalProfileDocument

10:25:08 <libby> neat re expat and ruby

10:26:12 <libby> looking good

10:26:32 <danbri> could be polished, but is ok i think

10:26:34 <libby> I think people might find the concept a bit confusing, but the example helps a lot

10:26:38 <danbri> yeah

10:26:53 <danbri> to explain it properly, we need to describe the two things ppl think of as "FOAF"

10:26:59 <danbri> (i) FOAF documents (ii) the FOAF vocab

10:27:27 <danbri> ...elaborating that properly will go a long way towards improving public understanding of how this (and SemWeb in general) works

10:28:19 <libby> yeah it's interesting how important documents are. same in the w3photo stuff

10:30:09 <danbri> so important, W3C has an entire ontology language optimised explicitly for reasoning about only those things that are XML Documents and their parts/structure, ie. XML Schema.

10:30:23 <danbri> RDF is for reasoning about everything else

10:30:37 <libby> heh, yeah. I meant within RDF. which I didn;t expect...

10:30:39 <danbri> of course, since documents represent things, the streamers get crossed...

10:33:35 * libby waits for a marshmallow explosion

10:48:39 <Jibbler> all the shakespeare stuff is mirrored now http://www.tux.org/pub/sites/jibble.org/shakespeare/divx/

11:47:44 * ephidrina discovers the rdf shirt goes nicely with a pair of argyle socks :)

11:57:46 <Jibbler> oh man... someone's accused me of hoaxing the shakespeare stuff(!)

11:59:45 <Remosi> ROFL.

12:00:03 <Jibbler> :-/

12:00:07 <Remosi> http://coders.meta.net.nz/xmlns/2004/03/xfoaf <- Comments?

12:00:25 <Remosi> and, what is foaf:sha1 used for?

12:00:38 <Remosi> oh, sha1 hash of a document?

12:00:47 <Remosi> if so, why isn't it IFP?

12:27:07 <danbri> it isn't IFP because two different documents, by different primary authors, could have the same contents and hence same hashes

12:27:44 <Remosi> hmm

12:28:05 <Remosi> then surely that's the same document with two different authors? :)

12:28:35 <Remosi> although I guess it's difficult to tell at that point if they collaborated

12:28:37 <Remosi> or didn't.

12:35:33 <Remosi> wow

12:35:38 <Remosi> neat foaf changes

12:42:06 <danbri> well 'Move Along, Nothing to see here' or '' or 'Go away' are common index.html files, independently created...

12:42:19 <danbri> changes, yeah good to get things moving again.

12:42:58 <Remosi> I made my changes to FOAF earlier today ( http://coders.meta.net.nz/xmlns/2004/03/xfoaf if anyone's interested)

12:47:51 <Remosi> still, they are the same document right?

12:47:57 <Remosi> they just have different authors.

12:53:32 <danbri> intuitions and notions of sameness break down given foaf's current crude notion of 'Document'

12:53:42 <danbri> it doesn't yet draw fine-grained enough distinctions

12:55:25 <Remosi> oh, what do you mean?

12:55:31 <Remosi> what other levels of distinction would you draw?

12:58:51 <danbri> cant explain now! off to lunch and airport home :)

12:58:59 <Remosi> ahh

12:58:59 <danbri> .google indecs metadata

12:59:00 <datum> indecs metadata : http://www.indecs.org/pdf/framework.pdf

12:59:02 <Remosi> See ya!

12:59:09 <danbri> have a look at that stuff, get rough idea

12:59:10 * Remosi RTFPDF

13:00:27 * danbri -> airport

13:10:51 <Remosi> hmm, fascinating.

14:22:59 <libby> libby is now known as l166y

14:41:07 <bengee> the german IT mag "c't" mentions foaf and the foaf-a-matic in its march 2004 issue. article is about "trends 2004"..

14:50:08 <monkeyqi> monkeyqi is now known as monkeyiq

16:45:35 <grault> grault is now known as earle

17:13:43 <kpreid> http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/#term_geekcode is inconsistent in capitalization

17:57:59 <golbeck_> golbeck_ is now known as golbeck

20:37:01 <xavier> hm. to make a seperate email alias for my foaf plaintext address to track it, or not?

23:11:33 <danbri-adrift> Anyone know a cheap hotel in Oxford?

23:12:37 <danbri-adrift> missed my bristol flight ended up in Gatwick too late to get to bristol...

23:13:55 <danbri-adrift> ...so I jumped on this coach, for no reason beyond that waking up in Oxford better than in Airport

23:17:42 <Remosi> heh

23:24:04 <danbri-oxford> loggerf,pointer?

23:24:04 <danbri-oxford> See http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/foaf/2004-03-13#T23-24-04