Friend of a Friend (FOAF) IRC Chat Logs for 2004-07-23

00:18:03 <lilo> [Global Notice] Hi all. Services have been restored. Please be on the lookout for any problems with nickserv and chanserv data. Feel free to message if you see anything unusual. Thanks!

06:55:46 * eaon likes doap

07:03:05 <eaon> what if a project is coded in a few programming languages? comma seperated?

07:03:16 <eaon> +list them

07:03:22 <eaon> ah, no, nevermind

07:03:25 * eaon kicks himself

07:03:37 <eaon> damn guis

07:42:47 <stork> well, several <doap:programming-language>, no?

07:58:03 <stork> eaon: do you think that multiple programming languages are often used on a project? If so, i should include it in DOAP-a-matic :)

07:58:52 <eaon> stork: i think so

07:59:01 <bengee> hi native en speakers, is it ok to say: a lecture is *lecturedBy* a lecturer?

07:59:18 <stork> readBy?

07:59:27 <stork> though i'm not a native speaker :)

07:59:31 <libby> givenBy?

07:59:38 <stork> better

07:59:42 <libby> (it isn't necessarily read, right)

07:59:45 <libby> [[

07:59:46 <libby> A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its

07:59:46 <libby> recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:

07:59:46 <libby> danbri+uob@w3.org

07:59:47 <libby> (ultimately generated from rocky-fanmail@rdfweb.org)

07:59:48 <libby> ]]

07:59:52 <libby> poor rocky

08:00:01 <bengee> I'm looking for a predicate that gives a hint on the domain

08:00:10 <libby> right

08:00:40 <bengee> readBy seems ok.

08:00:58 <stork> eaon: ok, let's include it! btw, could you give me the address of your DOAP file (if public)? I need to see how users use it :)

08:01:12 <stork> bengee: i'd prefer givenBy...

08:02:02 <bengee> is that unambigous enough if you knew that the context was "campus"

08:02:18 <eaon> stork: sorry i just made a test file - however i'm going to document all our companies projects and i'll make some doap files ;)

08:02:25 <stork> :)

08:02:39 <stork> you can use DOAP-a-matic ;)

08:02:56 <stork> B:

08:03:13 <stork> B)

08:03:36 * bengee picks givenBy. has to finish his position paper for galway in -8 hours...

08:03:59 <stork> :D

08:04:16 <libby> heh

08:06:01 <bengee> if a student takes notes of a lecture and shares them with peers, is *LectureNotes* still a proper term or is there something better..

08:06:51 * bengee tries to translate his thesis project. that's more complicated than he thought..

08:07:16 <stork> what's the original language?

08:07:20 <bengee> german

08:08:10 <stork> is it yet on the web? (the german version)

08:09:41 <bengee> there is a version but I plan to re-write the whole stuff to be more general. (initial version has e.g. cafeteria menus and other strange stuff)

08:09:52 * bengee looks for link

08:11:34 <bengee> those were my first steps into the RDF world. not the best modeling I guess..

08:12:05 * stork would have a hard time trying to make an RDF Schema...

08:12:27 <bengee> http://www.semanticcampus.de/pages/semca_doc_classes

08:13:06 <bengee> and http://www.semanticcampus.de/pages/semca_doc_properties

08:13:24 <libby> [[

08:13:25 <libby> 22:52:07 * sh1mmer had forgotten what gits ecconomists could be

08:13:25 <libby> 22:52:11 <sh1mmer> sorry libby :P

08:13:26 <libby> ]]

08:13:41 * libby an *ex*-economist :)

08:13:43 <stork> bengee: thanks :)

08:13:50 <dajobe> lol

08:14:02 <sbp`> heh, heh

08:19:40 * libby *fully* recovered now

08:20:45 <LeoS> <foaf:Person rdf:about=""><foaf:knows rdf:resource="soon hopefully more of you at the foaf-camp" /></foaf:Person>

08:30:03 <stork> LeoS: can't we express the "foaf-camp" as <geo:lat>, <geo:long> and <geo:alt>? ;)

08:30:36 <LeoS> sorry, we don'T need to! I have a better idea...

08:31:17 <LeoS> <foaf:Project rdf:about="http://foafcamp.asemantics.org/" />

08:32:04 <LeoS> <foaf:Person rdf:about=""><foaf:currentProject rdf:resource="http://foafcamp.asemantics.org/" /></foaf:Person>

08:32:49 <LeoS> which is the overkill: The website is the first resource that comes to our minds, when we talk about foaf-camp (perhaps not to libbys mind, as she has to wrestl more than this resource)

08:33:13 <stork> :)

08:33:31 <libby> hang on - I have the gps coords somewhere

08:33:31 <LeoS> stork: are you at the camp?

08:34:43 <stork> LeoS: no :( i think i'll go to italy...

08:35:10 <libby> approx locations are on the rdf attachment in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-interest/2004Jul/0081.html

08:35:35 * libby struggles with gps

08:39:32 <libby> Twente campus, enchede - 52deg14.545, 06deg51.266 elevation 60ft

08:40:02 <libby> enschede

08:40:04 <libby> rather

08:41:26 * stork has a silly logo idea for DOAP...

08:41:52 * stork isn't at all a graphist :(

08:45:10 <CaptSolo> hi all

08:45:22 <stork> hi

08:53:16 <Cloud> hello uldis

08:55:07 * bengee thanks CaptSolo for blogging the arc parser.

08:57:06 <CaptSolo> hi cloud

08:58:04 <CaptSolo> bengee: you are welcome :) - it deserves to be blogged so it was

08:58:44 <libby> capt, have you got any more time to work on your paper? I'm sure it could make a good long paper with a bit more detail and discussion

08:59:06 <libby> time in the next day or two I mean

09:00:56 <CaptSolo> stork: how's your foaf?

09:01:24 <CaptSolo> libby: i could find some time

09:01:55 <stork> CaptSolo: well, thanks :) i added your "skills"

09:02:51 <CaptSolo> thanks for using them

09:03:11 <CaptSolo> now that i think about them more, i see some improvements that could be made

09:03:18 <stork> they're useful!

09:03:20 <stork> yeah

09:03:34 <CaptSolo> regarding skillLevels - how did you decide which level to assign?

09:03:47 <stork> err... the way i could :)

09:03:57 <stork> but that seems correct...

09:06:29 <stork> one problem, i think, as we said yesterday, is about the skills by themselves...

09:06:40 <stork> it'd be easier to define them by an URI

09:06:51 <stork> easier or more understandable and standard

09:08:04 <kasei> what is one to do for image annotation if a word doesn't exist in wordnet? (wn having become such a defacto standard and all...)

09:08:26 <stork> kasei: what kind of word?

09:08:51 <kasei> at the moment, kiteboard and kiteboarder

09:09:03 <kasei> which are too new to have been in wn

09:09:07 <stork> aoh... yes :)

09:09:17 <stork> well... just use them as words

09:09:24 <stork> or create our own def

09:09:39 <stork> and when they are included in wn, link your def to wn

09:10:16 <kasei> what do you mean "link my def to wn"?

09:10:26 <CaptSolo> stork: i encourage using URIs for skills - the Resume schema limit skills names to literals, but then probably the schema needs to be changed

09:10:41 <CaptSolo> kasei - subclass from wn

09:10:51 <CaptSolo> or make sameAs

09:11:15 <kasei> ah, yes. that could work...

09:11:26 <stork> that's what i meant by "def"... shud have been more precise :)

09:11:36 <kasei> given tools that understand the sameAs or subclassing...

09:11:40 <CaptSolo> stork: i do not remember if I have provided definitions for skill levels

09:11:58 <stork> CaptSolo: what do you mean by defs?

09:12:13 <CaptSolo> skill levels are very subjective

09:12:43 <CaptSolo> by definition i mean a textual explanation when you should put '5' for a skill and when '3'.

09:12:48 <stork> yeah... you can't define them, i think...

09:12:54 <CaptSolo> or what '5' means and what '3' means

09:13:01 <stork> subjective and dependent of the skill type...

09:13:32 <CaptSolo> they could be made independent from skill type

09:13:36 <stork> on*

09:13:40 <stork> how?

09:13:51 <CaptSolo> 0 = does not know anything

09:14:07 <CaptSolo> 5 = knows everythig, exended understanding and experience (GOD)

09:14:14 <CaptSolo> 4 = good knowledge

09:14:32 <CaptSolo> these are just examples - if creating such definition, it would need community feedback

09:14:50 <stork> yeah... but GOD at milking a cow does not imply the same as GOD at coding...

09:15:52 <stork> you can be a GOD at milking a cow within weeks, GOD at coding implies years

09:18:09 <stork> don't like my examples ;)?

09:20:48 <libby> heya jibs

09:22:04 <JibberJim> hey libby

09:23:59 <CaptSolo> sotkr: but we are attaching skillLevel to every skill

09:24:30 <stork> yep

09:24:58 <CaptSolo> so - if we are talking about milking a cow, we can compare a number of people by skill level in this area, disregarding other coding skills these people have (as we need to milk a cow after all)

09:25:09 <stork> yes

09:25:22 <stork> but you can't define skill levels the same way

09:25:25 <stork> i think

09:27:49 <danja> anyone using AIM? I could do with a test ping to 'dannyayrs'

09:28:11 <CaptSolo> you can - that's what they do with grades in school

09:28:33 <CaptSolo> stork: just that these skills will be self-assigned, so - subjective

09:29:35 <stork> CaptSolo: well, why not, but... don't know, do how you feel it :)

09:31:24 <stork> coin coin

09:37:52 <danja> bengee needs a tipjar

09:39:35 * andyp is away: I'm busy

09:39:56 <Talliesin> :)

09:40:25 <Talliesin> So, big long URIs that tell my service what to do directly, or short URIs matching stored details? What way should I go?

09:56:01 <danja> short URIs matching stored details sounds a bit unRESTful - where's the state?

10:12:00 <Talliesin> Well, you could PUT state of the stored details, GET state of those details + current state of the wishlists referenced.

10:12:38 <Talliesin> It could certainly be done RESTfully, though I like the URI containing all the server needs to know.

10:13:49 <Talliesin> No need for shared state or cookies etc.

10:15:10 <danja_> remind me, is the limit on uri length (255 chars?) in the rfc or just implementations?

10:16:04 <Talliesin> implementations, Around 2k is common, but 256 still isn't unheard of, at least as far as some proxies go. Another reason for my concern.

10:17:21 <danja_> can you (comfortably) get all you need in that?

10:18:22 <Talliesin> Also, I'd no longer have the issues I'm having with certain characters triggering the ISPs security filter to redirect to /<Rejected-By-UrlScan>?~ followed by the URI (I can subvert this, but then rdf:about="" no longer holds)

10:18:37 <danja_> ouch

10:18:40 <Talliesin> http://d1152316.u35.hosting365.ie/p/jon%40hackcraft.net/d/Script%20Encoding%20Initiative//www.unicode.org%2Fsei%2Fdonations.html//d/Rape,%20Abuse%20%26%20Incest%20National%20Network/0/w%2Fdonate.html/info@rainn.org/d/Dublin%20Rape%20Crisis%20Centre/1/www.drcc.ie%2Fabout_us%2Fdonations.html/fundraising@rcc.ie/t/81cf2b03e/u/2TIKZAEMBQYO0 is 337 chars

10:19:38 <Talliesin> I'm doing a sort of poor man's rewriting (catching the URI in a dynamic 404 page) to catch the filter bounces

10:19:57 * danja_ wonders if gzip+base64 encoding would make that any uglier...

10:20:25 <Talliesin> A variant on "funky caching" (annoying how when you come up with an idea someone else already has and named it too).

10:20:43 * Talliesin wonders if gzip+base64 encoding would be much shorter anyway.

10:20:44 <danja_> not seen that

10:20:47 <Talliesin> gzip has overhead.

10:20:51 * danja_ googles

10:20:52 <Talliesin> .g "funky caching"

10:20:55 <phenny> "funky caching": http://philringnalda.com/blog/2002/11/halfbaked_and_a_little_fried.php

10:21:32 <danja_> thats novel

10:22:06 * danja_ imagines the whole web generated on demand

10:23:13 * danja_ also suspects reality works on a just-in-time system as well...

10:23:15 <Talliesin> I'm not doing the caching thing (though I am the RDF/XML for the wishlists), just the 404-catching bit (because I don't have the access needed for rewriting, but I do for scripting the 404)

10:25:17 <Talliesin> W00t! The DNS is propagated, and http://bagofwishes.com/p/jon%40hackcraft.net/d/Script%20Encoding%20Initiative//www.unicode.org%2Fsei%2Fdonations.html//d/Rape,%20Abuse%20%26%20Incest%20National%20Network/0/w%2Fdonate.html/info@rainn.org/d/Dublin%20Rape%20Crisis%20Centre/1/www.drcc.ie%2Fabout_us%2Fdonations.html/fundraising@rcc.ie/t/81cf2b03e/u/2TIKZAEMBQYO0 is only 326 chars :)

10:25:23 <danja_> it's a cunning approach, doesn't make much difference for the long-uri thing though, does it?

10:26:24 <danja_> let me know when it's bloggable ;-)

10:26:49 <Talliesin> No, the URI is long becaues of the data. You'll notice (if you can look at the URI without your eyes hurting) that have small single-char switches for "the abbreviation of this the obvious abbreviation" and (web domain is same as mail, but with www.)

10:27:07 <Talliesin> Will do

10:27:20 <Talliesin> If I get time to do more with it.

10:27:48 <Talliesin> Time I want, graphic skills I could do with even more :(

10:28:22 <danja_> could you make a local map from rel uris to the uris in the query?

10:28:43 <Talliesin> ?

10:28:55 <Talliesin> oh.

10:29:26 <danja_> oops, client probs

10:29:44 <danja_> unicode => http://blahblahblah

10:30:07 <Talliesin> You mean a /somethingShort mapping to http://someCharityWithALongDomain/andABitOfPathToThe/DonationPage.html

10:30:13 <danja_> yep

10:30:24 <danja_> if they're likely to occur a lot

10:31:48 <danja_> like the service (?) dajobe mentioned, but local and specific to certain uris

10:32:08 <danja_> i.e. easier ;-)

10:32:57 <Talliesin> I like that in a few ways

10:34:24 <Talliesin> It also allows be to apply semantics over those of the use of it through the HTML representations.

10:35:54 <Talliesin> Also, charities tend to have even less stability in terms of their URIs than the rest of us, so it'll be possible to have a stable URI with the redirection changing as necessary. Of course some charities are very stable indeed, since no-ones looked at the code in 2years+

10:36:42 <Talliesin> But it again requires storing state rather than mapping everything from the URI.

10:38:32 <Talliesin> I can forsee my needing quite a bit of storage if lots of people set up lists, but no commissions, if hardly anyone actually uses them. I don't want to end up paying more than what I am now for it (indeed ideally it would break even).

10:42:10 <danja_> hmm, the mappings would be (allegedly) permanent though, rather than a dynamic thing

10:52:14 <Talliesin> Well if I was to do it I would like to allow people to add them.

10:52:40 <Talliesin> Though that said, anyone tries to donate to stormfront and I'm going to redirect it somewhere unexpected.

10:53:03 <Talliesin> (The link, redirecting their money, while better, I can't work out how to do)

10:53:46 <danja_> heh, I hadn't though of it that way - phishing again

11:33:47 <stork> do you think it's useful to encode (%20...) the URLs of rdf:resource's?

11:35:55 <Talliesin> Actually I want to check the spec for that.

11:36:09 <Talliesin> Depending on how it's defined it's either a very good idea, or a very bad idea.

11:36:17 <stork> :)

11:36:49 <Talliesin> What state of *exactly* goes into an rdf:about or rdf:resource

11:37:10 <Chopinhauer> Isn't that in the XML specification?

11:37:13 <Talliesin> Anyway, I'd much rather just have "", but for the security filter issues mentioned

11:37:51 * Talliesin suspects he's going to find that it's not entirely clear where it's defined. And that the rival specs differ subtly on the point.

11:38:12 * Chopinhauer is maybe mixing XHTML and XML.

11:39:12 <Talliesin> More likely to have differences with characters in the range U+0080 and above.

11:45:09 <stork> jsled: received your mail at doap-interest...

11:46:08 <jsled> stork: me too. :)

11:47:26 <stork> stork is now known as balbinus

11:47:40 * jsled lightbulbs

11:47:49 <balbinus> jsled: just wanted to that it was a good idea :)

11:48:01 <balbinus> balbinus is now known as stork

11:48:22 <jsled> :) Yeah, I guess I should have justified it a bit more; but parsing the various /deeply/personal/ ways people have for representing versions is going to be a pain.

11:48:33 <jsled> There are probably a couple of good heuristics to be employed.

11:48:34 <stork> yep!

11:48:42 <stork> dunno...

11:48:52 <jsled> But as other pointed out yesterday; there exist whole Perl modules for guessing.

11:49:06 <jsled> Plus, having the release date lets you do other interesting stuff like track activity

11:49:16 <jsled> and cross-compare projects.

11:49:47 <stork> yes... both release date and release number are interesting... both should be included

11:50:37 * stork should change nick to balbinus forever...

11:50:49 <jsled> Hmm... and I guess I didn't see it, but some indication of the "intent" or "Status" of the release is in order.

11:50:59 <jsled> "development", "stable", ...?

11:51:03 <stork> what do you mean?

11:51:34 <jsled> If there is one [ ?doap doap:release ?release ] per "branch", then it helps to know why.

11:51:41 <jsled> Those two tags are the most common I've seen...

11:52:13 <jsled> Looking at http://www.wincvs.org/download.html, for instance.

11:52:26 <stork> well, normally, there's only one current release per branch...

11:52:30 <jsled> They describe "recommended", "milestone" and "development" releases.

11:52:50 <jsled> I guess 'recommended' is more a sub-property.

11:52:56 <stork> they are what means "branch": "stable", etc

11:54:10 <jsled> that case, for instance, could be ...

11:54:23 <jsled> <...> :release [ a :Version; :revision "1.3.17.2"; :status :stable; :recommended true ]

11:54:38 <jsled> , [ a :Version; :revision "1.3.18"; :status :dev ]

11:54:50 <jsled> , [ a :Version; :revision "1.2"; :status :stable; :recommended false ].

11:55:04 <jsled> plus release dates, I guess...

11:55:25 <stork> yes, but how do you define the semantics for "dev", "stable"...?

11:56:33 <jsled> doap:dev rdf:label "In active development; things may be broken; backup your datafiles! ;)".

11:56:42 <stork> yeah...

11:56:49 <stork> why not

11:56:52 <jsled> doap:stable rdf:label "Effort being expended to minimize bugs and disruption.".

11:56:53 <stork> :)

11:57:18 <jsled> [rabbit feeding time; biab]

11:57:43 <stork> doap:unstable rdf:label "Don't go complaining if it screwed up your computer and erased all your data"

11:58:33 <lyle|afk> lyle|afk is now known as lyle

12:06:40 <jsled> good point.

12:07:07 <jsled> There's the stable/unstable axis ... is the Version stable or not?

12:07:31 <jsled> Then there's the dev/release axis ... is the focus on features or [for lack of a better term] stability?

12:07:54 <jsled> Then there's the 'recommended' bit.

12:08:06 <stork> should dev be used by "normal" people?

12:08:17 <jsled> who can say?

12:08:22 <jsled> probably not.

12:08:35 <stork> well, forget it

12:08:46 <stork> it's the same as repository access

12:09:00 <stork> doap only provides anon access; not dev access

12:09:03 <stork> i think

12:10:18 <jsled> eh?

12:11:05 <stork> err... if dev version is "reserved" to developers, no need to insert it in the doap

12:11:13 <jsled> why not?

12:11:15 <stork> as the dev (read/write) access on the repository

12:11:22 <stork> is not included

12:11:52 <stork> well, why not... it's small... but i don't think it's very useful :)

12:15:01 <jsled> I don't understand.

12:15:17 <jsled> what's small but not very useful?

12:21:35 <stork> well, this "dev" stuff... i know few people who would download dev versions

12:27:31 <stork> well, you should mail edd (and the whole ml) about all that :)

12:30:23 <jsled> Yeah ... might re-construct it in a more presentable form later ...

12:30:33 <jsled> unfortunatley, work calls.

12:30:34 <jsled> :/

12:31:52 <stork> :)

12:35:16 <crschmidt> pfft, work.

12:35:20 <crschmidt> what's that all about?

12:41:01 <stork> ?

12:41:03 <stork> :D

12:41:35 <crschmidt> (he says, as he gets in to work)

12:42:00 <stork> :)

12:42:10 * stork is on holydays

12:51:49 * edd pops in, reads the scrollback

12:51:57 <edd> there's no telling what people want to call branches

12:52:06 <edd> look at the mozilla project for an example

12:52:11 <danbri_dna> or banyan trees

12:52:14 <edd> am happy to keep that a literal value for now

12:52:14 <crschmidt> wow, edd is a fast reader ;)

12:52:19 <jsled> no kiddings.

12:52:25 <crschmidt> 8 seconds, and read all the backscroll.

12:52:52 <edd> and i'm listening to the circket at the same time

12:53:00 <danbri_dna> http://community.webshots.com/s/image2/2/51/90/108125190RqoIGR_ph.jpg

12:53:14 <stork> suppress all my lines (well, err, why not...), it makes a lot less to read :)

12:54:07 <stork> any doap-project.org domain to be built up?

12:54:10 <jsled> edd: what do you mean by "want to call [branches]"?

12:54:47 <edd> of releases

12:54:51 <edd> there's more than stable/unstable.

12:55:02 <jsled> certainly.

12:55:07 <edd> for instance, there's windows/linux/osx

12:55:11 <jsled> But that's a pretty common distinction.

12:55:22 <edd> the most common, yes

12:55:32 <jsled> so much so that multiple projects have adopted other conventions for representing the same thing.

12:55:40 <jsled> x.{even,odd}, for example.

12:55:46 <edd> yeah

12:55:54 <edd> so maybe a stability indicator in addition to a branch name

12:55:59 * jsled nods

12:56:09 <edd> as you can tell, i'm being very very conservative about complicating things

12:56:13 * jsled nods

12:56:15 <edd> i want to see some test implementations first

12:56:16 <jsled> And with good reason!

12:57:00 <stork> btw: http://foaf.balbinus.net/doap/doap-a-matic.php -> DOAP-a-matic's DOAP, created w/ DOAP-a-matic

12:57:26 <edd> 404.

12:57:32 <stork> ooopd

12:57:37 <stork> ooops*

12:57:42 * stork is tired

12:57:55 <stork>http://foaf.balbinus.net/doap/doap-a-matic.rdf

12:58:04 <danbri_dna> anyone tried making a doapnaut?

12:58:35 <jsled> I'm trying to make a *naut, but no...

12:58:42 <stork> anyone thought of a logo?

12:58:53 <edd>http://www.cc-ent.net/albums/ebay/dog_and_pony.jpg

12:58:56 <edd> mattb did

12:59:03 <edd> DOAP = Dog On A Pony

12:59:14 <stork> lol

13:00:11 <stork> seriously?

13:01:03 <edd> no, it's just a joke

13:01:26 <stork> :) i had understood :) i meant: is there any serious idea?

13:01:47 <edd> not yet. i'd like something simple but cool

13:02:23 <jsled> project -> "file" or "package"...

13:02:38 <jsled> description of -> "magnifying glass" or ... microscope?

13:02:47 <jsled> scroll?

13:03:09 <edd> i wonder if i could get one of the GNOME artists interested

13:03:11 <edd> they make nice graphics

13:03:18 <stork> yep

13:03:19 <stork> well, i'm not at all a graphist :) but i thought of http://images.balbinus.net/logo-idea.png...

13:03:30 <stork> but i'm not graphist

13:03:40 <edd> i fear it won't reduce too well

13:03:58 <stork> err...

13:04:11 <edd> the dots, i mean, to a small size.

13:04:13 * stork looks

13:05:01 <crschmidt> Yah, I think edd is right.

13:05:07 <stork> could be better, true :)

13:05:08 <edd> ok, i have to go to this conference now. later all.

13:05:11 <crschmidt> Maybe pull the dots out?

13:05:19 <stork> where?

13:05:57 <crschmidt> So it's just the colored squares with letters?

13:06:20 <stork> err... i tried to make it look like keys (on a keyboard)

13:06:41 <stork> but yes, they are

13:08:02 <stork> why?

13:10:05 <lyle> lyle is now known as lyle|away

13:12:05 <crschmidt> I'm just trying to think ways to make it reduce better.

13:12:17 <crschmidt> I think if you got rid of the dots, it might help with that

13:12:41 <stork> yes... but the idea was to make it recall the FOAF logo...

13:12:50 <stork> i'd rather suppress the letters

13:13:52 * crschmidt shrugs. Just guessing. I'm no artist :)

13:14:13 * stork has already told that neither was he

13:14:15 <stork> :)

13:15:00 <stork> well... either way, it's readable...

13:15:16 <stork> do you want to see what it gives?$

13:16:07 <crschmidt> sure

13:16:19 <stork> wait a sec, gotta upload it

13:17:22 <crschmidt> np, i'm at work, i have all the seconds in the world (until 5:30)

13:17:33 <stork> :D

13:18:28 * stork is lost is the jungle of his Photoshop layers

13:19:13 * stork triumphed

13:19:27 <stork> here they are: http://images.balbinus.net

13:19:42 <stork> logo-wo-eyes.png and logo-wo-letters.png

13:19:45 <crschmidt> Congratlations! you have reached level 3, Photoshop warrior!

13:19:50 <stork> lol

13:20:07 <stork> i KNOW how to use photoshop ;)

13:20:25 <crschmidt> Well then, you're much better off than me :)

13:20:45 <crschmidt> I like the "without letters" better.

13:20:56 <stork> "i prefer"

13:21:08 <stork> ;)

13:21:10 <stork> ok

13:21:19 <stork> recenter the eyes?

13:21:26 <crschmidt> I think so, at least on the yellow one

13:21:28 <crschmidt> the others look fine

13:22:11 <crschmidt> I'm not sure if it's distinctive enough from the FOAF logo, which the DOAP gave you, but I think that like all logos, until it's widely accepted, it may not be widely recognized :)

13:22:30 <stork> :)

13:22:46 <stork> maybe a little drop-down shadow?

13:22:54 <Talliesin> Yet more evidence for my assertion that foaflet are the new lego

13:23:01 <stork> :p

13:23:49 * stork screams: he hadn't saved his logo file since this morning!!! fortunately, it's still here

13:23:53 <danbri_dna> ah, was http://images.balbinus.net/w3chica.png you, stork? :)

13:24:28 <stork> i'm a boy, you know?

13:24:42 <stork> but if you mean my "work", yes :)

13:24:52 <stork> err... i only colorized her :)

13:25:02 <stork> but that's not my idea

13:25:49 <stork> what i meant by "i'm a boy" is "i'm not *this* girl";)

13:26:50 <danbri_dna> I assumed she didn't exist as such :)

13:26:54 <danbri_dna> .g w3c-girl

13:26:58 <phenny> w3c-girl: http://white.sakura.ne.jp/~piro/w3cg/w3cg.html

13:27:02 <danbri_dna> no relation? ;)

13:27:26 <stork> not at all!

13:27:30 <stork> .g w3chica

13:27:33 <phenny> w3chica: sorry, no results were found.

13:27:35 <stork> :(

13:29:23 <stork> instead of having a look at the silly things i did, have a look at http://images.balbinus.net/logo-idea-small.png ;)

13:29:37 <danbri_dna> http://images.balbinus.net/logo-idea.png looks good

13:29:47 <danbri_dna> foafish but also different enough

13:29:51 <crschmidt> danbri_dna: problem with it is it doesn't scale

13:30:01 <danbri_dna> could go more different if edd picked some doap colours

13:30:29 <stork> i exactly picked foaf's colors

13:30:41 <danbri_dna> small one cute too, but no letters so looks perhaps too foafy for doap if edd wants to maintain a clear identity; colour switch could fix that?

13:30:51 <stork> crschmidt: i think we should keep the too...

13:31:05 * crschmidt shrugs. I honestly don't know :)

13:31:06 <stork> i chose the simplest font i found...

13:31:15 <stork> the two*

13:31:20 <stork> both

13:31:36 <crschmidt> I think keeping the letters would be good, but it just doesn't seem like it scales well to me. I'm not the end all/be all of the decision :)

13:31:38 <stork> i mean: the big one: letters and eyes, the small ones: eyes only

13:33:26 <stork> ?

13:39:51 <crschmidt> oh, hm

13:39:56 <crschmidt> I kind of like that idea

13:42:00 <stork> :)

13:47:07 <stork> do you dawp or doo wap?

13:47:37 <stork> do you pronounce*

13:50:05 <jsled> doh-app? [like soap, but with a 'd'?]

13:50:20 <stork> doh...

13:50:23 <crschmidt> Dope. that's how i think it :)

13:50:31 <jsled> =crschmidt

13:50:42 <stork> :)

13:50:43 <crschmidt> which is why doap-a-matic is so amusing in my mind.

13:50:50 <crschmidt> "Create your very own Dope!"

13:51:05 * stork gotta write it somewhere...

13:51:25 <stork> "Get DOAP for free"

13:52:13 <stork> lol

13:53:33 <eaon> hehe

13:54:01 <stork> aoh, eoan!

13:54:12 <stork> i implemented the multiple programming-language feature

13:54:19 <eaon> cool thanks :)

13:54:28 <eaon> going to do that in a few minutes

13:54:52 <eaon> i will probably force monochrom (www.monochrom.at) to use foaf and doap ;)

13:54:55 <eaon> that'll be insane ;)

13:55:00 <stork> :D

13:55:16 <eaon> (you might find http://www.monochrom.at/english/ better hehe)

13:57:04 <stork> :):

14:09:05 <stork> a little DOAP-viewer: http://83.154.132.44/dotclear/doap-viewer.php?url=http://foaf.balbinus.net/doap/doap-a-matic.rdf

14:09:52 <stork> be careful: this is my own server...

14:09:56 <jsled> stork: nice.

14:10:04 <stork> and that's not at all a permalink!

14:10:11 <stork> jsled: thx :)

14:10:26 <crschmidt> hm.

14:10:28 <crschmidt>http://83.154.132.44/dotclear/doap-viewer.php?url=http://sdlroads.sf.net/doap.rdf

14:10:29 <stork> should work with any DOAP file...

14:10:32 <stork> :)

14:10:36 <crschmidt> Why do I get the things with the funky #?

14:10:42 <Talliesin>http://www.hackcraft.net/foafletsInSpace.png

14:11:57 <stork> err... you created it with a bogus version of DOAP-a-matic, sorry :S

14:12:10 <stork> just need to remove the final slash in the DOAP ns

14:12:11 <crschmidt> oh, heh

14:12:21 <crschmidt> ah, i see, thanks

14:12:22 <stork> mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!

14:12:45 <crschmidt> no es un problema: sin tu ayuda, yo no sabe nadir de esta proyecto!

14:13:00 <stork> nada :)

14:13:20 <crschmidt> si, si. I got to nadi and said.... "shit. Somethings' wrong there. oh well."

14:13:23 <stork> pero no soy español ;)

14:14:09 <stork> and the foaflets "en goguette" are nice ;)

14:15:57 <Talliesin> "en goguette" is "in space" I assume?

14:16:28 <stork> err... not exactly :)

14:16:37 <Talliesin> "In round"

14:16:40 <Talliesin> "In black void"

14:16:42 <stork> that's what it "means" here...

14:16:49 <stork> "in space"

14:17:40 <stork> the dictionary translates it by "to be on the binge", or "to be on a spree":)

14:18:22 <stork> it's a little bit archaical

14:19:23 <Talliesin> Going on a bender?

14:20:16 <stork> yes...

14:22:46 <lyle|away> lyle|away is now known as lyle

14:24:46 <lyle> stork: do you see right offhand why you DOAP viewer is choking on this one: http://83.154.132.44/dotclear/doap-viewer.php?url=http://www.fxruby.org/doap.rdf

14:24:51 * eaon wants doap to use http://www.cyc.com/2004/06/04/cyc#Project :P

14:26:18 <crschmidt> lyle: same problem as mine

14:26:22 <crschmidt> wrong URL for DOAP

14:26:30 <lyle> crschmidt: ahhh

14:26:33 <crschmidt> take out the / before the # in the xmlns

14:26:44 <stork> lyle: excuse me, I hadn't heard the beep :S

14:26:45 <lyle> crschmidt: ok, let me fix it...

14:31:41 <lyle> hmmm

14:32:35 <crschmidt> ah

14:32:39 <crschmidt> youre &'s aren't escaped

14:32:47 <crschmidt> s/&/&amp;/ in URLs

14:33:05 <stork> i'm f**** escaping them (mmmmmmmmm)

14:33:24 <stork> :pppppp

14:33:27 <stork> here they are

14:33:41 <crschmidt> oh wait, yeah

14:33:58 <crschmidt> sorry, i'm just not paying attention. too busy with stupid work :P

14:34:47 <lyle> stork: the &'s in my doap.rdf file are escaped, I think.

14:35:04 <crschmidt> yah, that was my bad

14:35:07 <lyle> stork: i mean, i don't see any non-escaped ones.

14:35:19 <stork> ok

14:35:31 <lyle> stork: the doap viewer is still choking, but in a different way ;)

14:35:48 <stork> lyle: there were also problems with foaf ns (strip the final slash), nd with the rdfs ns (strip the -19990303) :S

14:36:47 <stork> i'm totally sorry...

14:37:13 <crschmidt> stork: trust me, no one is upset that you're helping to popularize a project :)

14:37:22 <lyle> stork: woo! success!

14:37:31 <lyle> stork: thanks!

14:38:38 <stork> lyle: not...

14:38:54 <stork> lyle: gotta remove the PR- in RDFS ns in order it to work :S

14:39:46 <stork> oh, btw, i added a form to allow you to type the URL of a DOAP instead of inserting it in the URL by yourself... just call doap-viewer.php

14:39:56 <lyle> stork: i was just happy that it displayed something at all ;)

14:40:07 <lyle> stork: ok, now it's even more fixed (removed the PR-)

14:40:58 <stork> :'( still not this RDFS URL... :S

14:41:14 <stork> gotta verify it

14:41:39 <stork> except this, it displays :)

14:43:15 <stork> err...

14:43:37 <stork> i think it should be http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#...

14:43:50 <stork> when you change this, it'll display a tiny FOAF icon

14:43:57 <stork> try to click on it...

14:44:15 <stork> (if the ns thing works :()

14:46:05 * stork wonders why does everything displays twice???

14:46:47 <lyle> stork: sorry, was afk for a moment.

14:46:53 <stork> :) np

14:47:13 <lyle> stork: yes, when I changed the RDFS URI to the newer one and redisplay, I see the FOAF icons.

14:47:37 <stork> so it works :)

14:48:18 <lyle> yup

14:50:27 <lyle> my foaf doesn't correctly reference the DOAP for that project, but I will fix that tonight. I had not yet seen Edd's example of how to annotate that in FOAF.

14:52:57 <stork> it's complicated...

14:53:05 <stork> some say rdfs:seeAlso

14:53:17 <stork> some say doap:maintainer-of...

14:53:25 <lyle> stork: that's what i'm currently using (rdfs:seeAlso).

14:53:37 <stork> that's the easiest way

14:53:40 <lyle> stork: but I think Edd's example uses doap:maintainer-of

14:53:48 <lyle> stork: yes

14:53:55 <stork> but doap:maintainer-of isn't really in the spec

14:53:59 <stork> though edd uses ut

14:54:01 <lyle> stork: oh

14:54:01 <stork> it*

14:54:26 <eaon> stork: <doap:programming-language>test,anothertest</doap:programming-language>

14:54:40 <lyle> stork: i asked about it on the doap-interest mailing list but no one's responded...

14:54:49 <eaon> stork: shouldn't this be doap:programming-language>test</doap:programming-language><doap:programming-language>anothertest</doap:programming-language>

14:54:49 <stork> eaon: do you know what a semicolon is?;)

14:54:54 <eaon> erk

14:54:57 <eaon> sorry i didn't read

14:54:57 <stork> :)

14:55:09 <eaon> sorry ;D

14:55:20 <stork> lyle: i suscribed to the doap-interest ml too :)

14:55:26 <eaon> ah nice :)

14:55:28 <eaon> thanks

14:55:45 <stork> lyle: well, either way is semantically correct

14:55:53 <stork> lyle: only one is in the specs ;)

14:56:30 * stork has an enormous problem: his hosting doesn't accept curl!!!

14:57:45 <lyle> stork: where is the DOAP spec? is there something other than the articles at developerWorks?

14:57:51 <stork> yep!

14:57:56 <stork> a sec...

14:58:13 <crschmidt> http://usefulinc.com/doap/ ?

14:58:50 <eaon> the doap ontology is pretty easy to read too ;)

14:59:10 <stork>http://usefulinc.com/ns/doap#

14:59:15 <lyle> hmmm

14:59:21 <lyle> firefox is not being very cooperative

14:59:40 <stork> eaon: does it work now?

14:59:49 <eaon> stork: yeah

15:00:02 <eaon> if you scroll up you see me saying thanks ;)

15:00:25 <stork> oops... sorry :S

15:01:03 <eaon> np ;)

15:01:12 <eaon> woo! gpl works in germany :P

15:03:04 <stork> 15 DOAPs have been generated since 12 am (CET) using DOAP-a-matic

15:03:20 <lyle> oh the irony; IE lets me open the RDF schema for DOAP but Firefox doesn't :(

15:03:50 <stork> ah?

15:04:05 <stork> why doesn't firefox let you open this?

15:04:15 <stork> it works for me...

15:04:25 <crschmidt> Firefox doesn't deal well with application/rdf+xml, possibly?

15:04:33 <crschmidt> Maybe you need to update firefox :)

15:04:45 <lyle> stork: hmm. both browsers are confused since there's no file extension.

15:04:54 <lyle> crschmidt: maybe so; am running 0.9.1 though.

15:05:16 <lyle> stork: IE at least gives me the option of saving it to a file since it doesn't know what it is.

15:05:33 <stork> no, firefox can't deal natively with app/rdf+xml (personnally, i mapped this extension to an XML editor)

15:05:37 <lyle> stork: Firefox doesn't want me to do anything with it.

15:05:44 <stork> i use 0.9 and it works perfectly :)

15:05:50 <stork> dunno...

15:05:59 <lyle> stork: ok, maybe that's what i need to do (catch that mime type)

15:07:11 * lyle sees that he's actually running Firefox 0.9.2

15:09:48 <stork> you've seen the DOAP-viewer? Maybe you liked it? It has a ttl of 4 hours max.

15:11:40 <crschmidt> stork: you want me to host it for you?

15:12:30 <stork> crschmidt: where?

15:12:51 <crschmidt> stork: crschmidt.net somewhere

15:13:41 <stork> stork: got curl?

15:13:50 * stork is overstressed

15:13:56 <stork> crschmidt: got curl?

15:14:30 <crschmidt> stork: looks like i lost it in my last emerge world. I'm recompiling php with it, will have it in a few minutes.

15:15:17 <crschmidt> if you want me to put it up temporarily, just drop me an email with the files at crschmid@uiuc.edu

15:15:23 <stork> well, i'm having a look at pear...

15:15:48 <crschmidt> stork: alright. if you need somewhere to stick it, feel free to dump it on me for as long as you like

15:16:13 <stork> thanks!!!

15:29:46 <stork> ah yessss!

15:29:49 <stork> it works :)

15:29:59 <crschmidt> yay :)

15:30:00 <stork> thank you very much crschmidt

15:30:35 <stork> so, here it is: http://mouettes.balbinus.net/doap-viewer.php

15:30:59 * stork thinks he MUST link his domain name bonjourlesmouettes.org to his website...

15:35:25 <stork> crschmidt: i think i should build a site around all that Dope stuff...

15:39:59 <stork> crschmidt: i can find an interesting domain name, as createyourveryowndoapforproject.bonjourlesmouettes.org ;)

15:40:10 * crschmidt grins

15:44:02 <Talliesin> Damn!

15:44:13 <stork> ?

15:44:21 * Talliesin stops placing his order for createyourveryowndoapforproject.org

15:44:24 <Talliesin> :)

15:44:34 <stork> lol

15:44:56 <stork> mine was a subdomain... worse :)

15:45:58 <Cloud> doap.net is still there

15:46:51 <stork> i think i'll book doap-project.org

15:49:17 * danbri_dna wonders if edd has plans for something like that

15:49:32 <Cloud> can you use doapey the dwarf as your logo? ;-)

15:49:39 <jsled> heh

15:49:45 <stork> i don't! i book, and ask him to pay if he wants it back! ;)

15:55:46 <stork> provided the number of persons who used commas instead of semicolons to separate programming-languages (5+/15), should i put an example?

16:04:23 <crschmidt> or just support both?

16:10:46 <stork> lol

16:11:16 <stork> well, i wonder... are there any programming languages that have ";" or ","'s in their names?

16:12:50 <stork> found a list of prog. lang... browsing it

16:12:53 <crschmidt> i don't know of any

16:13:00 <crschmidt> but that doesn't mean a whole lot :)

16:13:23 <stork> :)

16:19:13 <stork> according to the listing on Wikipedia, there's no prog lang that contain ";" or ",". i'll add both...

16:21:16 <stork> earlgrey "asked" on #rdfig to add doap metadata extraction from xhtml feature to doap-a-matic

16:21:22 <stork> sounds interesting

16:30:06 <stork> crschmidt: i made you install curl for nothing :S

16:30:33 <sh1mmer> hello boys and girls :)

16:30:41 <stork> hello

16:30:42 <sh1mmer> having curl installed is a good thing anyway

16:30:45 <sh1mmer> its a nice tool

16:30:50 <stork> yep

16:31:07 <sh1mmer> and you can tell people you have been "doing curls" ;)

16:31:11 <bengee> stork, in case you're still interested, I just put my (this time in english) campus position paper for foaf 2004 online (linked from http://www.appmosphere.com/). written in a hurry, may have bugs, though..

16:31:24 <sh1mmer> sounds a lot healthier than "I have been sitting on my fat arse at home"

16:32:14 <stork> thank you bengee!

16:34:11 <crschmidt> stork: I needed it anyway for PeopleAggregator testing

16:34:19 <crschmidt> stork: there were pages on my server that had curl errors :)

16:34:49 <bengee> CU foafers

16:34:56 <sh1mmer> ttfn

16:34:57 <stork> bye

16:35:04 <sh1mmer> crschmidt so what the criac?

16:35:08 <stork> kwak kwak

16:35:43 <crschmidt> sh1mmer: huh?

16:38:42 <sh1mmer> `g define:craic

16:39:04 <stork> .g define:craic

16:39:07 <phenny> define:craic: sorry, no results were found.

16:39:23 <sh1mmer>http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=craic

16:39:43 <Talliesin> Craic agus ol agus ceol

16:40:39 <crschmidt> sh1mmer: not much, i guess, if i understand the word :)

16:41:29 <Talliesin> First definition is the best.

16:41:53 <crschmidt> "what the craic" seems like "What's up?" ?

16:42:06 <crschmidt> Right now, I'm just cursing safari.

16:42:17 <Talliesin> But "the craic" can mean "the current gossip" (as gossiping is part of craic) and hence "What's the craic?" means "what is the current gossip?" or more generally" "what's up?"

16:42:40 * stork : "Whazzza"

16:43:22 <Talliesin> "'bout ye?", "story?", "story? buzz?"

16:43:55 <Talliesin> Oh, "Craic agus ol agus ceol" means "Craic and drink and music"

16:45:26 <Talliesin> For some reason "ninety" is an adjective applied to craic to mean it was very intense indeed, "sure, the craic was ninety".

16:45:45 <sh1mmer> Talliesin I just happen to hang around with the lads from Dublin

16:45:58 * sh1mmer speaks a weird mix of Yorkshire, Jordie and Celtic ;)

16:46:28 <crschmidt> I speak engrish!

16:46:28 <crschmidt> ;)

16:46:34 <Talliesin> (a restriction on the ninety property when the domain is a resource of type Craic)

16:46:55 <Talliesin> crschmidt, the English for "Craic" is "Craic"

16:47:11 <crschmidt> Heh, so I noticed :)

16:48:57 <Talliesin> Much as the English for "Shampoo" is "Shampoo" and for "Crêpe" is "Crêpe" or sometimes "Crepe" and so on.

16:50:07 <Talliesin> sh1mmer, so you'll be familiar with "story?" as well then?

17:12:38 <stork> well, here i got my doap xhtml extractor :)

17:13:15 <sh1mmer> man i just love it. all the SW will start being doap soon.

17:13:18 * sh1mmer giggles

17:13:22 <sh1mmer> phonetics amuse e

17:13:23 <stork> lol

17:13:24 <sh1mmer> me

17:13:26 <jsled> heh

17:14:11 <jsled> we need a FLY, too... then the sw can be both fly and doap

17:14:32 <jsled> ooh, and a phat.

17:15:03 <stork> lol

17:16:49 * stork thinks i should give the address now... they'll feel withdrawal

17:20:13 <stork>http://mouettes.balbinus.net/doap-xhtml-extractor.php

17:21:11 <stork> it takes as an input an HTML file

17:21:46 <stork> and looks for a <link rel="meta" type="application/rdf+xml" title="DOAP" href="..." />

17:22:19 <stork> according to Edd's spec (http://usefulinc.com/doap)

17:22:23 <stork> gotta chump it

17:26:34 <danbri_dna> OK made a DOAP file for FOAF project (though we're a vapourware project, no software deliverables).

17:27:00 <danbri_dna> It does make me wonder when to have non-person homepages have 'DOAP' vs 'FOAF' in the autodiscovery.

17:27:46 <stork> why not both?

17:28:19 <danbri_dna> could do, sure

17:28:34 <jsled> hmm; seems like projects have DOAP, which points to FOAF.

17:28:34 <danbri_dna> i think i should tweak foaf spec to encourage crawlers to scoop up DOAP too

17:29:06 <danbri_dna> its only the title= attribute anyway; a pretty gentle hint.

17:31:08 <stork> and still no logo to adorn our pages...

17:31:25 <stork> ;)

18:06:35 <MacIntire> Nice job on that OPML transform, Danny. However for some reason after the transform, your server serves it as some .PHP file and my client therefore wants to open it with Dreamweaver rather than open it as RDF in my browser.

18:06:54 <danja> suggestions?

18:07:38 <MacIntire> Dunno...can you force a server mimetype post-transform?

18:07:51 <MacIntire> ie send a mimetype to the browser

18:07:53 <danja> oh yeah - what would be the .htaccess for getting the server to run .rdf files

18:08:03 <danja> it is sending rdf mime type

18:08:13 <MacIntire> weird

18:08:17 <danja> application/rdf+xml

18:09:01 <stork> You can force the mime-type from your php script

18:09:14 <danja> I am doing

18:09:30 * MacIntire kicks IE

18:09:34 <danja> heh

18:09:39 <stork> but there will still be the .php extension

18:09:53 <danja> yes

18:10:22 <stork> dunno if some browser identify files according to their extension... think so

18:10:36 <MacIntire> I wouldn't be surprised if IE did.

18:10:37 <danja> yep, IE does

18:10:39 <crschmidt> it shouldn't :P

18:10:47 <stork> true, but it does

18:10:54 <danja> I think it was at least partially fixed

18:11:13 <danja> aha!

18:11:30 <danja> try adding a ?dummy=.rdf to the end of the uri

18:11:40 <stork> aoh...

18:11:42 <stork> :)

18:11:52 <danja> it was a trick that came in handy for svg on ie

18:11:58 <stork> yep

18:12:25 <stork> isn't a mime type of application/xml sufficient?

18:12:36 <stork> as IE displays xml...

18:13:03 <danja> what happens with ?dummy=.xml then?

18:13:33 <MacIntire> Doesn't work for me either way.

18:13:48 * danja fires up ie

18:14:05 <stork> what do you want to do? to let users download a file, or to display it?

18:14:40 <danja> 3. load it into their triplestore

18:14:50 <stork> what's a triplestore?

18:14:58 <stork> i mean, what form does it take?

18:15:17 <crschmidt> Depends on what you're doing with it ;)

18:15:37 <danja> I suppose it's a loose term for anything that can store RDF

18:15:41 <stork> so, you want to make users download the file

18:16:01 <danja> no, for their Semantic Web clients to open it

18:16:30 <stork> SW Client == browser???

18:16:32 <danja> ;-)

18:16:35 <crschmidt> What's a SW client? :P

18:16:53 <danja> wget

18:17:01 <stork> SW Client = Semantic Web Client

18:17:21 <stork> the SWC Client is different from the browser, then?

18:17:54 <stork> so, you want to make them download that file, in order to let another program (the SW Client) to import it in its database?

18:17:54 <crschmidt> stork: it doesn't exist as a seperate entity, is what he's saying (by answering wget)

18:18:05 <stork> ooh...

18:18:09 * danja sorry, sarcasm

18:18:17 * stork looks for aspirin

18:18:28 <danja> .g foaf explorer

18:18:31 <phenny> foaf explorer: http://xml.mfd-consult.dk/foaf/explorer/

18:18:39 <stork> ohmygod

18:18:42 <danja> that *might* be able to make sense of it

18:18:42 <stork> well.

18:19:11 <stork> Then. You've got a website, and a *normal* browser (IE, firefox...) surfing on it.

18:19:43 <danja> aw, it only sees the first seeAlso

18:19:55 <stork> what "it"?

18:20:02 <danja> foaf explorer

18:20:20 <danja> are more likely use for this [articular data

18:20:25 <danja> a more..

18:20:37 <stork> ok.

18:20:41 <danja> would be to use it as a blogroll in an aggretor

18:20:48 <danja> aggregator

18:20:53 * danja needs coffee

18:21:25 <stork> then, you dunno what will be its use, nor the program that will use it.

18:21:34 <danja> nope

18:21:51 <stork> then, try to send it as application/xml if you want a web browser to display it

18:22:18 <stork> else application/rdf+xml if you want to be standard, and let the user do what he wants with it...

18:22:22 <stork> no?

18:22:45 <danja> the latter would be my first choice ;-)

18:23:16 <stork> then, why do you care about browsers' compliance?

18:24:28 * stork should calm down

18:25:03 * danja not very sensitive

18:25:14 <stork> one day, i had a dream... all browser were displaying everything the way it should...

18:25:42 <danja> *if* a browser had a plugin designed to handle rdf/xml

18:25:45 <mattmcc> stork: http://mmcc.cx/DreamingOfWebStandards

18:25:52 <JibberJim> does should mean the way the publisher intended, or the way the author said?

18:26:02 <mattmcc> Er. s/Web//

18:26:03 <stork> put my sentence in the right order, it'll be better

18:26:27 <stork> lol

18:26:28 <danja> everything would be tickateeboo

18:26:39 <stork> Better compliance to XHTML 2.0!

18:26:46 <danja> Webbing of My Dream Standards

18:26:53 <danja> by Philip K. Dick

18:27:44 <danja> which reminds me,

18:28:00 <danja> somewhere around Planet RDF I saw an explanation of how it was done

18:28:03 <mattmcc> Personally, I'd go with some content negotiation. Send RDF/XML to UA's that say they accept it, and some appropriate HTML to web browsers.

18:28:06 <danja> but I can't find it now

18:28:44 <mattmcc> Although I don't know if scutters send appropriate Accept headers or not..

18:28:48 <danja> a list of URIs isn't very interesting to a human

18:29:20 <danja> I guess I could add another xslt to make them nicer

18:29:29 <stork> mattmc: you may say that if there's no Accept:, you send it as rdf...

18:30:25 <mattmcc> Well, I was hoping to just let Apache handle the negotiation, rather than having to script it myself.

18:30:30 * danja submits link to http://semanticwebsearch.com/

18:30:53 <danja> I don't know how many of those seeAlsos point to RDF though

18:31:11 <danja> could all be RSS 2.0

18:31:36 <stork> well, you can test them if you wanna know..

18:31:56 <danja> spent too much time on this already...

18:35:35 <edd> afternoon

18:35:43 <danja> hi edd

18:35:53 <danja> DOAP's looking grand

18:36:06 <edd> cheers, i'm happy with how it's shaping up

18:36:09 <stork> hi

18:36:17 <edd> niel's working on a nice .NET AssemblyInfo -> DOAP thing right now

18:36:24 <edd> that works on introspecting an assembly

18:36:27 <edd> that will rock

18:36:29 <danja> ooh

18:36:32 <stork> :)

18:36:57 <crschmidt> Is SourceForge open sourced code? Does it tend to take patches as a project?\

18:36:57 <danbri_dna> :)

18:37:14 <stork> crschmidt: ?

18:37:25 <edd> crschmidt: it's open source at its core, but i doubt they want to rev the software running SF itself very often

18:37:50 <danbri_dna> edd, a foaf proejct doap file http://www.foaf-project.org/doap.rdf

18:37:51 <danbri_dna> <doap:programming-language>RDF/XML</doap:programming-language>

18:37:52 <danbri_dna> <doap:os>The Web</doap:os>

18:37:57 <edd> titter.

18:38:18 <danbri_dna> are you on the road still?

18:38:24 <edd> yeah Ottawa right now

18:38:28 <crschmidt> ah, but is FOAF truly an RDF/XML project? I mean, surely it could also be RDF/N3 :)

18:38:29 <edd> going to Simon's house tomorrow

18:38:40 <edd> And then onto Portland on Tuesday

18:39:00 <danbri_dna> and RDF/XHTML (GRDDL, XFN2FOAF, etc)

18:39:02 <danja> DOAP world tour!

18:39:13 <mattmcc> Oh, you're going to be in town for OSCON?

18:39:26 <edd> Yep, I'm presenting DOAP there.

18:39:33 <edd> And Linux & Bluetooth too.

18:40:26 <stork> edd: is there any DOAP logo decision scheduled? i'd like to decorate my doap-a-matic ;)

18:40:43 <edd> It would be premature to decide just yet.

18:41:20 <edd> Maybe I should run a competition or something.

18:41:25 <crschmidt> edd: have you any information, as my primary contact for bluetooth related knowledge ;), whether linux on a powerbook has any bluetooth support?

18:41:31 * danja like dog/pony

18:41:34 <stork> that's what i wanted to know

18:41:37 <edd> crschmidt: yes, it works just fine

18:41:49 <edd> crschmidt: as it does on all architectures on which linux runs, afaik

18:42:07 <crschmidt> edd: I'd never looked into it to see if it worked builtin, only used my usb dongle

18:42:18 <edd> Oh, you mean builtin?

18:42:22 <crschmidt> Yeah, sorry :/

18:42:27 * crschmidt not very clear sometimes

18:42:28 <edd> No idea. But I don't see why not. It'll just be on the USB buis

18:42:34 * crschmidt nods.

18:42:58 <crschmidt> I'm thinking about installing gentoo on here to dual boot. OS X is great for a lot of things, but I don't do any hacking in it, I've found over the past 3 weeks.

18:43:18 <edd> Spend all your time playing with Exposé?

18:43:24 <danbri_dna> doap seems to be going down well, anyway :)

18:43:25 <crschmidt> heh

18:43:35 <crschmidt> nah, I don't do expose much, typically have two monitors

18:43:45 <danbri_dna> expose: press F11 then hold down Tab!

18:43:51 <crschmidt> and i'm far too used to evilwm and not even having a bar to minimize to.

18:43:52 <danbri_dna> er F10 sorry

18:44:14 <crschmidt> nifty, danbri

18:45:05 <danbri_dna> and so the hours go by...

18:45:19 <crschmidt> it's more that I spend all my time doing the same things i did in windows: IRC, AIM, aggregating, newsreading

18:46:01 <crschmidt> Rather than what I spend time in linux doing, which is "hiding all apps which distract me and hacking hardcore"

18:47:08 <edd> It's easy to waste time that way on Linux too.

18:47:11 <edd> Just look at me.

18:47:22 <edd> danbri_dna: yep, pleased with DOAP adoption so far.

18:47:28 <crschmidt> Oh, sure, but I find it much more easy to STOP wasting time there

18:47:44 <crschmidt> I think it's mostly the multiple desktops that does it

18:47:59 <edd> Yeah

18:48:01 <crschmidt> In evilwm, i can put things on another desktop, and i get 0 notificcation that things are happening there

18:48:06 <edd> maybe I should adopt that as a discipline

18:48:09 <crschmidt> or even that i have them open.

18:53:47 <mattmcc> danbri_dna: Ah, in http://www.foaf-project.org/doap.rdf the xmlns for FOAF has a # on the end.

18:54:06 <edd> Showing his true allegiance! :)

18:54:27 <crschmidt> heh

18:59:25 <stork> danbri_dna: created using doap-a-matic? ;) gotta insert a :maker tag...

19:01:26 <crschmidt> stork: i think there's a :Generater you can use instead

19:01:51 <stork> crschmidt: yes... what ns?

19:02:02 <mattmcc> DC?

19:02:57 <crschmidt> <admin:generatorAgent rdf:resource="http://www.livejournal.com"/>

19:03:02 <crschmidt> but I don't have a namespace for admin

19:03:05 <stork> yep

19:03:08 <crschmidt> that was just what Julian gave me at one point

19:03:13 <stork> i know.. rss module

19:03:13 <mattmcc> xmlns:admin="http://webns.net/mvcb/"

19:03:18 <mattmcc> From foaf-a-matic.

19:03:42 <crschmidt>http://web.resource.org/rss/1.0/modules/admin/

19:03:45 <stork> adding another ns is maybe a bit heavy?

19:04:18 * crschmidt can't think of why?

19:04:42 <crschmidt> It's also a tiny namespace, only two properties.

19:04:48 <stork> well, it's just another ns :)

19:04:59 <stork> (nothing in DC)

19:05:06 <crschmidt> I'm just nto sure of why a namespace is more than one line of text

19:05:27 <mattmcc> stork: Oh, that's where the # came from.. The xmlns for FOAF is http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/ doap-a-matic.php is putting a # on the end.

19:05:49 <stork> mattmcc: well, i'll change it

19:06:22 <stork> description is part of the dc ns, right?

19:08:25 <crschmidt> yah

19:14:51 * edd heads off

19:19:26 * crschmidt is proud of himself, he made two webpages for work validate and still look good

19:34:52 <stork> mattmcc: did i tell you the problem was solved?

19:36:18 <stork> thanks for your feedback on dam :)

19:37:17 * mattmcc takes a look.

19:38:21 <mattmcc> Cool. But I'm afraid crschmidt didn't guess which context of 'description' you meant right.. :)

19:38:33 <mattmcc> dc:Description should be rdf:Description (There is a dc:description, though.. :) )

19:38:51 <stork> aoh! true... i'm aslept...

19:40:14 <stork> corrected!

19:41:14 <stork> has someone got an idea about how to allow people to add developers? i mean, i think that javascript, as used on fam, isn't *the* solution... too poorly compatible. And there's often more than 1 developer :)

19:42:17 <JibberJim> if you're not going to use the f-a-m style javascript to create multiple rows, you need to have the server do it...

19:42:49 <mattmcc> The method they use is actually pretty portable. It's standard DOM code.

19:43:59 <stork> yep... but if i do it server-side, it means that i will have to save the form data each time...

19:44:28 <JibberJim> only re-populate it, that's not too bad...

19:44:40 <stork> i like mortenf's solution: http://xml.mfd-consult.dk/foaf/new

19:44:43 <JibberJim> (or even just prompt the user straight off, how many entries do they want?

19:44:44 <stork> worse!

19:44:55 <stork> (for repopulate)

19:47:00 <stork> there are many fields...

19:47:27 <mattmcc> Heh. I love that foaf-face-plus logo.

19:47:34 <stork> :) nice

19:47:43 <stork> in svg too

19:49:01 <crschmidt> :%s/type='text' name='\(.*\)'/& value='<?=\$_POST[\1]?>/g <- adds printing of stored values into form data quite well

19:49:07 <crschmidt> (depending on your code, i suppose)

19:49:22 <stork> err... yes! depends a lot on my code!

19:49:31 <stork> but i can make a function to do this

19:49:33 <crschmidt> ;)

19:49:59 <crschmidt> I tend to copy paste a lot at work, so i can almost always do something like that and make it so values are reprinted on a failed post

19:50:11 <stork> takes $_POST and the field name as arguments... returns a value field... or not

19:51:07 <crschmidt> well, it's just a vim thing

19:51:08 <stork> ooops... i need to validate my xhtml...

19:51:37 <stork> does someone know why w3c Xhtml parser choke on xmlns's?

19:51:40 <crschmidt> it basically says "find type='text' name='foo' and replace it with type='text' name='foo' and some code to set the value to $_POST[foo]"

19:52:02 <danja_> just a thought - perhaps a js based in-browser XHTML editor with xslt to rdf might be nice for doap

19:52:12 <danja_> like: http://semtext.org/2004-02/slides/w6.html

19:52:44 <stork> what's that???

19:53:34 * stork should stop doing monolithic stuff... 576 lines are far too much

19:56:05 <danja_> bit of fun, still not finished

19:56:19 <stork> what would be edited in the form?

19:58:54 <danja_> grr, seems not to work any more on Firefox/Debian

19:59:09 <danja_> there is no form - editing is in-place

19:59:31 <danja_> once done the DOM is serialized

19:59:50 <stork> yes... maybe a little too complicated for average user

20:01:04 <danja_> ?

20:01:53 <stork> and not really compatible...

20:02:00 <danja_> ??

20:02:04 <stork> can't test it on epiphany

20:02:15 <crschmidt> just crashed safari

20:02:23 <danja_> heh

20:02:31 <crschmidt> but safari+js == bad anyway

20:02:32 <danja_> it's only XHTML and Javascript...

20:02:52 <crschmidt> javascript is not all equal.

20:03:04 <stork> javascript *isn't* the most compatible thing on earth :)

20:03:17 * JibberJim believes it's more compatible than XHTML...

20:03:27 * stork does not

20:03:50 <stork> :)

20:04:37 <JibberJim> javascript implementations are stunningly compatible, you'll struggle to find an incompatibility unless you really know.

20:05:23 <crschmidt> Safari's Javascript implementation sucks ass. Lots of times I've found sites with javascript that simply don't work.

20:07:54 <JibberJim> that would be there DOM implementation their script implementation is good :p

20:08:06 <crschmidt> ah.

20:08:14 <crschmidt> I don't know anything about javascript other than that I dislike it

20:08:21 <danja_> it *has* worked on on Moz and IE

20:08:41 <crschmidt> So, anything I say about it is usually wrong.

20:08:43 <mattmcc> There's a lot of IE-specific JS out there, unfortunately.

20:08:55 <danja_> but it looks like I didn't try it on the linux version of FF

20:09:05 <JibberJim> there's just a lot of crap JS out there.

20:09:09 <danja_> ;-)

20:09:17 <JibberJim> most of it isn't IE specific, it's just crap!

20:10:16 <crschmidt> I know that javascript can sometimes be useful and friendly and blah blah blah, but my only personal use of javascript has been to make up for the fact that IE has a shitty CSS implementation

20:10:30 <crschmidt> which is obviously not going to invoke the best reaction

20:10:32 <danja_> works if you do ctrl+alt!!

20:10:37 <danja_> on epiphany

20:11:37 <danja_> gives a pop-up box for editing

20:11:54 <danja_> I vagueky remember now, the true in-place only worked on IE

20:12:36 <balbinus> balbinus is now known as stork

20:13:03 <stork> and you call this compatible?

20:13:32 <danja_> doesn't work on safari (or lynx)

20:13:35 <danja_> sorry

20:13:46 <crschmidt> it kinda works in safari

20:14:07 <danja_> it is still a bit buggy anyhow

20:14:09 <crschmidt> I'm more upset at applications that use javascript for core functionality and offer no alternative

20:14:16 <crschmidt> gmail is a prime example

20:14:21 <stork> true, it works under epipahany

20:14:44 <crschmidt> Or orkut, and their "rating" system, which could easily provide a non js alternative

20:14:55 <danja_> yep, not good

20:15:06 <danja_> however the fallback for this is view-only

20:15:24 <crschmidt> which is good

20:15:26 <crschmidt> i like that

20:15:40 <danja_> so you see a regular HTML <ol><li> thingy

20:17:27 * danja_ goes eat

20:17:50 <stork> javascript:void(d=document);void(el=d.getElementsByTagName('link'));for(i=0;i<el.length;i++){if(el[i].title.match('/doap/i')!=-1 && el[i].type.indexOf('application/rdf+xml')!=-1){newlocation='http://mouettes.balbinus.net/doap-viewer.php?url=';doap=el[i].href;if(doap.charAt(0)=='/'){doap=location.href+doap.substring(1);}void(location.href=newlocation+doap)};}; looks like this, sorry, it's crappy

20:21:04 <JibberJim> WTF is that?

20:21:15 <stork> 22:5

20:21:18 <stork> 22:15

20:21:33 <JibberJim> you're looking for things of type app/rdf+xml and then wanting to redirect to them?

20:21:37 * stork should have put it on a website... hadn't seen it too big

20:22:17 <JibberJim> no need for the void (d=document) only need void on the last statement

20:22:23 <JibberJim> location not location.href

20:22:33 <stork> yep... looking for a <link title="DOAP" type="app/rdf+xml" href="..."/>

20:22:38 <stork> i don't know :)

20:23:06 <JibberJim> not sure the absolute URI reference is logical either :-)

20:23:13 <stork> i've never coded in js... i adapted one of mortenf's script that did the same with foaf :)

20:23:35 <JibberJim> :-)

20:27:13 <crschmidt> JibberJim: It's a redirect: if a page has a DOAP info in the page, you click the bookmarklet, and it takes you to the DOAP viewer

20:27:24 <stork> yes :)

22:57:52 <sh1mmer> y0

22:59:27 <crschmidt> y0

22:59:51 <crschmidt> what's the craic?

23:01:02 <JibberJim> Hi sh1mmer, crschmidt

23:13:04 <sh1mmer> ah crap

23:13:07 <sh1mmer> i killed my norm

23:13:57 <sh1mmer> crschmidt just been to dinner with a mate

23:16:11 * crschmidt menow:isWith jessical

23:16:18 <JibberJim> you killed Norm?

23:16:32 <sh1mmer> a norm

23:17:28 <JibberJim> ah, the one from Cheers then maybe, not #foaf's norm.

23:18:02 <sh1mmer> no no

23:18:15 <sh1mmer> norms are the things from the AL game 'creatures'

23:20:05 <JibberJim> Oh right, so Norm is really some sort of artificial creature? he's good! I met him in the pub and he seemed like a regular guy!

23:21:04 <crschmidt> heh

23:21:11 <crschmidt> I feel like i'm supposed to be hacking something

23:21:14 <crschmidt> but i'm not sure what

23:22:06 <sh1mmer> JibberJim i accidentally dropped one down a lift shaft and it went in to a coma and died...

23:22:07 <sh1mmer> opps

23:22:17 <JibberJim> well that's just negligent