Open Source Conference IRC Chat Logs for 2003-07-09

This web site provides the chat logs for the OSCON Community Coverage for attendee-generated notes and coverage of the O'Reilly Open Source Software Convention 2003.

To join in, point your IRC client at irc.freenode.net's #oscon channel. The channel is publicly logged, and also runs a chump bot, dc_oscon, for which there are instructions available.

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00:00:26 <fjkljw23ojtrjodi> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
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00:00:54 <dajobe> dajobe has kicked fjkljw23ojtrjodi from #oscon
00:01:07 <dajobe> dajobe has changed the topic to: Open source conference
00:01:17 <H000ZKLJDFKLklfd> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
00:01:56 <H000ZKLJDFKLklfd> whatz up guys\
00:02:24 <mdubinko> wow
00:02:38 <dajobe> dajobe has kicked H000ZKLJDFKLklfd from #oscon
00:02:53 <dajobe> like I wanted to waste my time doing this
00:03:04 <dajobe> dajobe has changed the topic to: open source conference 2003
00:04:13 <psypete> heh
00:05:14 <mdubinko> danbri is famous in Antone's SVG demo
00:05:23 <dajobe> oh, he's here? cool
00:05:31 <mdubinko> "He's got a lot of friends" (FOAF in SVG)
00:09:30 * danbri uhohs
00:09:35 <danbri> ;)
00:09:40 <questionlp> uh oh?
00:09:48 <danbri> its odd being in a demo i can't see :)
00:09:50 <dajobe> anyone else want op, I'll be heading off for a bit
00:10:05 <danbri> gimme op, for safekeeping, tho i'm off to bed
00:10:11 * questionlp doesn't need ops
00:10:12 <danbri> or op everyone...
00:10:24 <dajobe> arse
00:10:29 <questionlp> lol
00:10:51 <danbri> is this chanserv managed? we're not going to be in an opless mess if you drop off?
00:11:05 <questionlp> dunno...
00:11:08 <dajobe> it is chanserver
00:11:14 <danbri> cool, no worries then
00:11:29 <danbri> what was Antone's SVG demo about?
00:11:42 <danbri> <subliminal>svg rules</subliminal>
00:13:51 <rjbs> danbri: SVG. :)
00:14:02 <rjbs> danbri: especially the manipulation of SVG via ecmascirpt and the DOM
00:14:08 <rjbs> danbri: showed it off largely as a DHTML replacement
00:14:12 <collord> amen!
00:14:30 <danbri> sounds good
00:14:36 <rjbs> danbri: my notes at http://rjbs.manxome.org/oscon/tuesday
00:14:45 <collord> here's to someday mozilla not exploding trying to run foafnaut
00:14:54 <questionlp> :)
00:15:11 <danbri> mozilla... we can dream...
00:15:59 <collord> how does batik do on it?
00:17:49 <collord> ehh not too well :/
00:18:12 <Schuyler> yay batik
00:18:47 <collord> it's giving it a go though, mozilla is blink, lights out
00:19:04 <questionlp> dasblinkenlights, ja!
00:19:47 <Improv_Away> Improv_Away is now known as Improv
00:19:55 <collord> Schuyler: do you want to have a wireless get together at some point?
00:20:23 <HOIZNFKLZSFKLJLK> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
00:20:34 <dajobe> dajobe has kicked HOIZNFKLZSFKLJLK from #oscon
00:20:38 <Improv> Improv has changed the topic to: O'Reilly Open Source con vention
00:20:48 <dajobe> I fought chanserv and lost
00:20:54 <HOIZNFKLZSFKLJLK> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
00:20:55 <dajobe> dajobe has kicked HOIZNFKLZSFKLJLK from #oscon
00:21:03 <HOIZNFKLZSFKLJLK> XXXXXXXXXXXX
00:21:04 * Schuyler detonates Java, Mozilla, and SVG in a flying wreckage of curly braces and missing external character entities
00:21:11 <dajobe> dajobe has kicked HOIZNFKLZSFKLJLK from #oscon
00:21:23 <mdubinko> dajobe++
00:21:25 * Improv yawns, wonders where to eat
00:21:37 <questionlp> Improv: same here
00:24:14 <Improv> I had some really good Indian food yesterday, but it was a bit of a walk
00:24:24 <questionlp> hmm
00:24:34 <collord> up on the max tracks at about 10th?
00:24:41 <HJOZO3NTKL4NKLZN> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
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00:24:42 <Improv> *sigh*
00:24:44 <HJOZO3NTKL4NKLZN> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
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00:24:48 <HJOZO3NTKL4NKLZN> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
00:24:49 <Improv> Improv has changed the topic to: O'Reilly Open Source Convention
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00:25:09 <dajobe> dajobe has kicked HJOZO3NTKL4NKLZN from #oscon
00:25:19 <Improv> Argh, there goes the history.
00:25:27 <questionlp> damned trolls... must be from slashdot
00:25:27 * dajobe will fix
00:25:32 <dajobe> oh no
00:26:44 <questionlp> so... where to eat :)
00:26:57 <Improv> Yup
00:27:13 <Improv> One of the inponderables that has plagued humanity since its beginnings
00:27:16 <questionlp> i guess anywhere decently close and not too expensive :)
00:27:56 <questionlp> i'm not too familiar with downtown pdx though
00:28:18 <Improv> It's odd -- if this is downtown, then this really isn't a big city
00:28:30 <Improv> It has a definite smalltown feel
00:28:33 <questionlp> yeah
00:29:00 <questionlp> that's one of the things that people tout about portland :\
00:29:04 <collord> only a couple million in the metro area
00:29:09 <questionlp> yeah
00:29:38 <questionlp> add some thousands during business hours and weekends when vancouver, wa people come down to work and shop ;)
01:02:35 Topic now open source conference
01:02:35 Users on #oscon: logger_oscon keturn BilldaCat mmlj4 funroll-loops jerenkrantz danbri_dna @dajobe evlist lilo rohrer katie Improv_Away toffer esinclai JeffSuttor Rich_G Acapnotic GabeW danbri judah collord autrijus @rjbs dc_oscon blech dngor
01:06:46 <rjbs> bbiab. seeking fluids.
01:07:04 <dajobe> good plan
01:11:12 <dajobe> later...
01:38:22 <gautamg> any mac users here?
02:21:50 <BilldaCat> food..........
02:22:13 <questionlp> heh
02:46:24 <danese> Somebody SAY something, eh?
02:46:34 <questionlp> moo
02:47:01 <danese> What happened to moof? Looking around this conference, I think it might be more appropriate
02:47:13 <rjbs> heh
02:47:19 <rjbs> <clarus> moof
02:47:39 <questionlp> cowdog
02:48:01 <danese> So, is this an interesting talk to any Python folks out there?
02:48:52 <itamar> yeah
02:48:54 <rjbs> questionlp: I thought it was dogcow. :)
02:49:01 <questionlp> ya ya ya
02:49:01 <itamar> "argh argh don't do that to my language"
02:49:04 <danese> It was dogcow
02:49:15 <rjbs> <danese> but now it's cowdog.
02:49:18 <questionlp> lol
02:49:22 <questionlp> rjbs: :P
02:49:25 <danese> but at this point most of these folks don't even know the dogcow
02:49:26 <rjbs> <danese> he's been carbonized
02:49:45 <rjbs> <guido> mumblemumble
02:50:02 <danese> so, who is he going to smartup with?
02:50:21 <itamar> the rest of pythonlabs aren't going
02:50:32 <danese> Yes, so I heard...but going where?
02:50:46 <danese> There's an opening at Transmeta
02:52:40 <itamar> presumably they're staying
02:55:26 <danese> Hey, Greg
02:55:36 <gstein> danese! :-)
02:55:49 <gstein> guess you're here, eh? :-)
02:55:54 <danese> So far, I think this would be hard to turn into a blog...but maybe more so during keynotes, eh?
02:56:21 <gstein> hmm... oh, I think you could capture bits for a blog
02:56:24 <danese> Yes, apparently. Brian is getting in tomorrow (flying back from Belgium now)
02:56:33 <gstein> yup
02:56:55 <gstein> lots of CN folks actually :-) (about 5 during the week)
02:57:37 <danese> That's a good thing...what's the number if you could former CN?
02:57:43 <danese> Just kidding
02:58:51 <danese> Is this the second or a later talk? I got here during Larry Wall
02:59:15 <itamar> I think 2nd
02:59:25 <itamar> assuming they follow order in schedule
03:03:06 <danese> Hello ged (and who are you?)
03:05:55 <jerenkrantz> php 5 before 'perl 6'
03:06:30 <ged> danese: Hi. I'm Michael Granger.
03:06:45 <danese> Hey Michael...how's your OSCon so far?
03:07:08 <danese> Any why are so many folks timing out just now? Trialsize software?
03:07:10 <ged> It's been a little slow so far, but I always get much more out of the presentations than I do the tutorials.
03:07:27 <ged> How's yours been?
03:07:29 <gstein> jerenkrantz: finish your talk yet? :-)
03:07:32 * itamar hopes ged wasn't at his tutorial
03:07:37 <danese> I always get most out of the Speaker's Lounge and the hallway discussions
03:07:45 <jerenkrantz> gstein: aren't you still editing your talk you're doing in 5 min? =)
03:07:53 <gstein> hehe
03:07:59 <gstein> been tweaking it. I think it is about done :-)
03:08:04 <gstein> and I have an hour
03:08:08 <danese> State of the patch?
03:08:08 * gstein sticks his tongue out at jerenkrantz
03:08:14 <gstein> State of the Feather
03:08:16 <jerenkrantz> gstein: hour? oh, PHP guys like to hear themselves talk?
03:08:20 <danese> Of course
03:08:29 <itamar> I thought elephant was postgresql mascot?
03:08:31 <gstein> jerenkrantz: MySQL is next. then me. then linux.
03:08:41 <jerenkrantz> ah.
03:09:53 <jerenkrantz> gstein: is PHP listed as an ASF project on your talk? ;-)
03:09:55 <ged> itamar: I was. Your talk gave me some ideas I had to get into code before I forgot them, and I though it'd be more rude to show up for the second half if I were just going to be coding.
03:10:13 <itamar> oh
03:10:21 <itamar> I just hope it wasn't slow :)
03:10:24 <danese> I love the hyper-connectivity at OSCon...I'm sitting next to a guy (from CN) who is writing me an email
03:10:27 <gstein> jerenkrantz: I call out a number of other things, but I didn't get php in there
03:10:35 <ged> itamar: No, not at all: I liked your tutorial a lot.
03:10:36 <gstein> danese: heh. louis?
03:10:42 <danese> Yup
03:10:51 <gstein> jerenkrantz: I'm uploading a new copy of the talk. one sec...
03:10:51 <itamar> thank you!
03:11:10 <itamar> ged: what're you coding? and what's your name? :)
03:11:34 <itamar> hehe
03:11:37 <danese> ged is Michael Granger
03:11:54 <ged> I wrote a server framework much like Twisted in Ruby called MUES (http://mues.FaerieMUD.org/). My names' Michael Granger.
03:11:56 <itamar> php needs to include a database since they can't store stuff in memory across page renders
03:12:04 <itamar> oh!
03:12:11 <itamar> yeah, twisted started as mud :)
03:12:36 <ged> Yeah, I know. I first heard of it two OSCons ago at another Python game-related talk.
03:12:49 <itamar> probaby jason asbahr?
03:13:03 <ged> Yes, sounds right, though I don't remember for sure.
03:13:29 <itamar> if you have any questions about the interals
03:13:45 <andym|oscon> what do elephants have to do with php?
03:13:47 <itamar> I'd be glad to answer (just not on IRC :)
03:13:50 * gstein grins at rooneg
03:14:12 * rooneg grins back
03:14:15 <ged> Twisted's Deferred stuff gave me an idea of how to do similar stuff for MUES with Ruby's "iterator" blocks, so I had to go play. =:
03:14:23 <itamar> andym|oscon: they both produce large amounts of fertilizer? ;)
03:14:38 <andym|oscon> lol
03:14:41 <itamar> Deferreds would be much nicer if we had closures in python, yeah
03:14:45 <ged> itamar: Cool.
03:15:29 <itamar> and continuations would make them unnecessary in some cases
03:15:40 <ged> Yeah. MUES is completely event-driven (though with generic events with publish/subscribe), and I solved the async problem by passing Method objects (callbacks).
03:16:04 <itamar> I assume ruby has exceptions?
03:16:31 <itamar> so, one of deferred's main design goals was exception handling
03:16:39 <ged> Yes.
03:17:37 <itamar> any ideas we can steal from MUES? :)
03:17:54 <ged> Yeah, you can set an exception handler for a closure in Ruby, so it's easy to do things like: queueEvent( ConnectEvent::new ) do |result| if result.success? ... else ... end ; rescue IOError; ...; end
03:18:12 <itamar> awwwww
03:18:12 <danese> Hey, Steve
03:18:18 <itamar> I want that :(
03:18:27 <ged> itamar: I don't know. There's only 2 or 3 developers, so we're not nearly as far along as Twisted, I think.
03:18:55 <ged> itamar: Yeah. Ruby's pretty nifty.
03:19:15 <itamar> unfortanutely I have too much invested code in python
03:19:59 <itamar> if I spend some time on new language I want it to be in something very different
03:20:15 <itamar> like oz
03:20:16 <ged> Yeah, I can appreciate that. Python is pretty nice, anyway.
03:20:43 <ged> Ah, never seen that.
03:20:45 * ged googles.
03:20:59 <itamar> www.mozart-oz.org
03:21:28 <SteveMallett> ass behind me is on cell phone
03:21:38 <ged> Hmmm... declarative programming, cool.
03:21:48 <gstein> heh. co-author
03:22:05 <gstein> he should just claim himself as the sole author of the com extensions nowadays,
03:22:06 <itamar> it's OO! it's logic programming! it does erlang style stuff!
03:22:17 <gstein> it has been years since I committed to them...
03:22:26 <itamar> oh, you were coauthor?
03:22:39 <ged> Yeah, that looks very interesting.
03:22:55 <gstein> yup
03:23:03 <gstein> there was some original crappy stuff,
03:23:12 <gstein> and then I rebuilt it from scratch back in '96
03:23:18 <ged> Illya == colorful.
03:23:20 * ged giggles.
03:23:21 <gstein> and that was the core of the current com extensions
03:23:30 <ged> s/l//
03:23:32 <danese> Well, when the phone rings ;-)
03:23:44 <jerenkrantz> boy, this is funny to hear them pronounce their names
03:23:47 <danese> But I agree that this isn't the place...
03:23:49 <itamar> I'm looking forward to seeing how ctypes COM support goes
03:23:59 <itamar> does C++ interfaces as well!
03:24:07 <danese> There should be a phonetic crib for Open Source Marketeers
03:24:27 <itamar> they're all europeans!
03:24:30 <itamar> yay europe
03:24:39 <gstein> heh
03:24:43 <itamar> or sound european anyway :)
03:25:04 <itamar> argh
03:25:07 <rjbs> er.
03:25:07 <itamar> enough with the "congrats"
03:25:12 <rjbs> network wonkiness.
03:25:41 <jerenkrantz> resolution looks off
03:25:47 <rjbs> yeah
03:26:25 <danese> Okay, so some of my bosses think MySQL is the most brilliant business model...what do you guys think?
03:26:37 <jerenkrantz> danese: no.
03:26:56 <andym> they need an elephant
03:26:57 <andy> brilliant why?
03:27:02 <andy> a running elephant.
03:27:05 <danese> that's terse...why no?
03:27:59 <danese> brilliant because they get more control. They don't try to build community. They push out releases and it all appears less messy than real engagement to corporate types
03:28:02 <jerenkrantz> danese: it's about selling support. it only goes so far. if mysql were easier to use, it wouldn't need such help
03:28:14 <rooneg> umh, isn't slashdot written in perl?
03:28:23 <itamar> yes
03:28:31 <ged> Yes, Perl + DBI + Mysql.
03:28:43 <rooneg> ah, shit, i'm out of it...
03:28:52 <ged> Hehe.
03:29:15 <ged> I find Mysql easy to use.
03:29:30 <Acapnotic> Are they letting unwashed masses into the activestate party?
03:29:43 <lilo> hi all
03:29:46 <danese> GPL "poison pill" to limit freeloading looks attractive to corporate types, too
03:29:50 <ged> Hi lilo.
03:29:50 <lilo> did you get your problem child fixed?
03:30:02 <lilo> hey ged
03:30:40 <SteveMallett> danese: poison pill?
03:31:05 <lilo> hmmm, I'm going to take the liberty of fixing the topic situation
03:31:18 <lilo> lilo has changed the topic to: http://oscon2003.xmlhack.com/ || O'Reilly Open Source Software Convention 2003 Chat -- July 7-11
03:31:26 <lilo> step one
03:31:35 <questionlp> heh
03:31:46 <jerenkrantz> SteveMallett: if you change MySQL, you have to give it back to MySQL
03:31:47 <danese> Yes, the idea is to use the GPL as the free license to drive proprietary participants into your commercial terms (because presumably they won't accept the GPL).
03:31:59 <lilo> step two
03:32:08 <jerenkrantz> (or as danese said, buy the license)
03:32:17 <danese> So if you accept a proprietary license with MySQL, you can change to your heart's content...
03:32:30 <danese> as long as you pay them
03:33:22 <lilo> the problem with using the GPL to drive participants into your commercial terms is, what if their value proposition is the working software?
03:33:30 <itamar> gstein: do *you* have pictures of children?
03:33:34 * lilo is coming in late and apologizes if he's a bit behind 8)
03:33:41 <gstein> not in my talk, no
03:33:42 <jerenkrantz> danese: that works (sort of) as long as you have centralized copyright/ownership.
03:33:52 <danese> We have a couple of projects which have been appropriated by (large) proprietary vendors who are *not* giving anything back...and that's annoying our bosses.
03:34:04 <itamar> someday
03:34:13 <danese> How about pictures of Elephants?
03:34:21 <itamar> OSCON will be people showing slideshows of their grandchildren
03:34:39 <jerenkrantz> danese: greg has nice pictures of feathers
03:34:53 * gstein wiggles
03:35:05 <SteveMallett> states of the union should be "lightning states of the union"
03:35:15 * lilo goes off to look for a succinct description of MySQL's licensing scheme
03:35:29 <dajobe> hi
03:35:31 * rooneg notes that gstein still has time to find pictures of someone's kids for his presentation
03:35:37 <jerenkrantz> man, how come they never fixed his resolution?
03:36:07 <gstein> rooneg: well, I know you have pictures of kids, but we probably shouldn't talk about that here
03:36:12 <rooneg> probably didn't want to talk and fiddle with things
03:36:14 * gstein grins mischieviously
03:36:19 <rooneg> gstein: ouch
03:36:34 <danese> now boys...
03:37:07 * rooneg makes rumblings about it being a good thing gstein never has time to write svn code anymore ;-)
03:37:19 <gstein> heh
03:37:41 <jerenkrantz> hey rich. havin' fun in the back?
03:37:46 <danese> Wow it would be easy to lampoon these guys...they're like Hans and Franz of MySQL
03:38:01 <gstein> danese: now girls...
03:38:05 * gstein smirks
03:38:08 <SteveMallett> danese: ++
03:38:12 <danese> Yeah, yeah
03:38:26 <danese> At the R
03:38:31 <danese> Whoops
03:38:37 <DrBacchus> jerenkrantz: I can barely hear back here.
03:38:41 <DrBacchus> jerenkrantz: but I needed the outlet
03:39:01 <danese> At the RenFaire the crew used to do a "night show" that was a lampoon of the daytime...could be fun here, I think
03:39:59 <gstein> DrBacchus: there are outlets all the way down the center of the chair groups
03:40:08 <gstein> they daisy-chained (oof!) power strips all the way back
03:40:18 <DrBacchus> gstein: Oh, now you tell me
03:40:31 <DrBacchus> gstein: I didn't realize you were here yet.
03:40:41 <itamar> ged: oh
03:40:45 <DrBacchus> What is the deal with the left half of the slide missing?
03:40:52 <rooneg> DrBacchus: i hope gstein is here, he's speaking in a few minutes ;-)
03:40:53 <itamar> you're the ruby programmer I met on the way to the talk
03:41:01 * BilldaCat looks around
03:41:03 <DrBacchus> Oh, yeah, I guess I knew that.
03:41:13 <DrBacchus> Is there a State of Ruby talk?
03:41:18 <ged> itamar: Yes. =:)
03:41:19 <itamar> no
03:41:24 <jerenkrantz> DrBacchus: don't think so
03:41:25 <itamar> apache, then linux
03:41:36 <itamar> then we go get free drinks on activestate's bill
03:41:39 <BilldaCat> anyone here going to the activestate drinkfest later?
03:41:43 <jerenkrantz> itamar: hell yeah
03:41:47 <gstein> DrBacchus: I gotta be here. my talk is in 5-10 minutes
03:41:52 <danese> Where is ActiveState party?
03:41:57 <BilldaCat> umm... i forget.
03:42:00 <jerenkrantz> danese: maccormick and schmidts.
03:42:03 <BilldaCat> yeah.
03:42:04 <jerenkrantz> (spelling way off)
03:42:07 <BilldaCat> close enough
03:42:11 <jerenkrantz> womdpw 2
03:42:19 <danese> Okay, and if you're not from here...where is that?
03:42:30 <gstein> signing off... gotta get this laptop ready :-)
03:42:31 <BilldaCat> close
03:42:45 <gstein> (I'll be at the activestate party)
03:42:45 <BilldaCat> it's apparently a 2 minute walk .. just follow all the people with glasses
03:42:49 <danese> Shall I follow the thirsty people?
03:42:52 * rooneg is amused to note that jerenkrantz was the one who wasn't drinking at dinner, and yet the rest of us manage to type...
03:43:12 <jerenkrantz> rooneg: hey! i forgot the slash. sue me!
03:43:31 <rooneg> jerenkrantz: you'll hear from my lawyers
03:43:43 <SteveMallett> is the AC party invite only?
03:43:49 <BilldaCat> i hope not
03:43:54 <jerenkrantz> rooneg: talk to mysql. they have good lawyers
03:43:58 <itamar> the free drinks are little-ticket only I think
03:44:03 <BilldaCat> little ticket?
03:44:06 <itamar> yep
03:44:09 <itamar> you need one
03:44:10 <BilldaCat> explain
03:44:12 <jerenkrantz> red-ish with directions
03:44:14 <SteveMallett> ahhhh.. little ticket.
03:44:26 <rooneg> where did one get the ticket, for future reference...
03:44:29 <jerenkrantz> oh, come on. please stop this talk!
03:44:31 <itamar> actually
03:44:41 <itamar> maybe it doesn't give you a free drink and it's an invitation
03:44:45 <itamar> I do not know
03:44:47 <SteveMallett> rush the stage!
03:44:50 <BilldaCat> hmmmmm
03:44:59 * BilldaCat is ticketless and invitationless, yet still thirsty
03:45:11 <lilo> hey MacRat
03:45:12 <SteveMallett> hey flip
03:45:14 <DrBacchus> BilldaCat: I don't expect they'll actually check.
03:45:19 <BilldaCat> .... excellent.
03:45:25 <jerenkrantz> DrBacchus: the only thing is they may flood the place with people
03:45:37 <MacRat> eek, someone knows me?
03:45:51 <SteveMallett> MacRat: sadly yes. 8^)
03:46:02 <DrBacchus> lilo: Are you actually here at oscon?
03:46:14 <jerenkrantz> how many slides do they have?
03:46:19 <lilo> DrBacchus: unfortunately no, no budget for such things
03:46:24 <DrBacchus> Oh.
03:46:27 <lilo> DrBacchus: no budget at all to speak of, yet 8)
03:46:29 <BilldaCat> is anyone from around here?
03:46:43 <lilo> DrBacchus: I'm just keeping an eye on the channel when I can
03:47:17 <jerenkrantz> does anyone believe them?
03:47:55 <itamar> crazy swedes
03:48:02 <rjbs> SLUT
03:48:10 * lilo thwaps rjbs :)
03:48:32 * lilo points to the little eyes reading the logs 8)
03:48:40 <DrBacchus> Where the heck is everyone going?
03:48:54 <BilldaCat> i go where the free drinks are
03:48:58 <BilldaCat> whereever that is
03:49:08 <DrBacchus> That pretty much ensures that nobody will stay for the last two talks.
03:49:19 <rooneg> giving a 5 minute break seemed rather silly...
03:49:37 <BilldaCat> heh
03:49:58 <mjkrooker> are there statistics somewhere about OSCON attendance over the years? I see ~1500 this year, how does that compare to the past?
03:50:13 <jerenkrantz> mjkrooker: is that what they are predicting? wow. more than last year
03:50:30 <lilo> nice numbers
03:51:10 <mjkrooker> that's what the cites articles on oreilly.com say
03:51:22 <mjkrooker> *cited*
03:52:30 * lilo tosses in a few extra users
03:53:26 <mjkrooker> jerenkrant: how many last year?
03:54:15 <jerenkrantz> mjkrooker: didn't seem that many. no idea what official count was though. just a rough sense
03:54:16 <lilo> hey sabian
03:54:22 <sabian> hello
03:55:07 <DrBacchus> Geddy Lee giving the Apache talk.
03:55:15 <jerenkrantz> lol
03:55:16 <lilo> hi zeno-
03:55:20 <zeno-> hi lilo
03:55:42 <lilo> re oulipo
03:56:07 <mjkrooker> "take off to the great white north"
03:56:18 <SteveMallett> mjkrooker: nice
03:56:21 <DrBacchus> beauty, eh?
03:56:22 <danese> There would be more girls here if more of the presenters looked like Greg
03:56:40 <lilo> hallo skvidal
03:56:41 <SteveMallett> danese likes big hair?
03:56:41 <jerenkrantz> danese: no! stop it!
03:56:44 <skvidal> 'lo all
03:57:01 <skvidal> how is the conference going thus far?
03:57:09 <danese> Child of my generation, I'm afraid (and Greg's a baby to me, most guys my age look like Maddog)
03:57:17 <lilo> hehe
03:57:28 <danese> and DAve Stutz
03:57:32 * lilo is slightly ancient himself
03:57:53 <BilldaCat> there are actually some quite attractive chicks in portland
03:57:57 * BilldaCat met a few wandering around
03:58:10 <mjkrooker> more fuzzy slides
03:58:14 <danese> Were they friendly?
03:58:25 <BilldaCat> yeah. hell, everyone on the west coast is friendly compared to back east
03:58:26 <SteveMallett> did they have big hair?
03:58:26 <lilo> re mlangham
03:58:29 <jerenkrantz> danese: if you give them money....
03:58:33 <BilldaCat> lol
03:58:35 <SteveMallett> BilldaCat: word
03:58:41 <danese> yeah, that's where I was going
03:58:44 <SteveMallett> people here are really nice
03:58:46 <BilldaCat> yep
03:58:49 <BilldaCat> i like it out here
03:58:59 <danese> Duncan just moved here (from San Francisco)
03:59:01 <jerenkrantz> we need to tell greg to pump up the font size
03:59:11 <DrBacchus> The great thing about having the conference here is that the weird people don't stand out quite as much.
03:59:13 <BilldaCat> SF isnt bad either, i visited there
03:59:17 <lilo> hehe
03:59:27 <MacRat> There are weird people here?
03:59:29 <BilldaCat> dc is the sux tho
03:59:34 <danese> Well I like it, but Duncan lived in the middle of homelessland
04:00:01 <danese> Yes, you have to ask yourself...why would they put the capitol in a swamp
04:00:14 <BilldaCat> yes.. dc is terrible
04:00:19 <BilldaCat> 100% humidity all the time
04:00:23 <BilldaCat> too many people too
04:00:25 <itamar> anyone here know anything about mac os x and python?
04:00:27 <danese> except when its freezing
04:00:31 <lilo> I'd say to make attacking it less interesting, but so far it doesn't seem to have worked
04:00:35 <BilldaCat> i much prefer freezing
04:00:39 <BilldaCat> easier to get warm than cool
04:00:54 <jerenkrantz> itamar: sort of. why?
04:00:55 <questionlp> itamar: i think panther is including python 2.3 beta right now
04:00:58 <danese> well, its pretty humid here
04:01:03 <questionlp> at least the test version of panther
04:01:06 <danese> and hotter than San Francisco just now
04:01:21 <questionlp> it seems that they are accelerating the 2.3 release cycle to meet the release cycle of mac os x 10.3
04:01:21 <itamar> we are having a lack of speaker issue
04:01:22 <jerenkrantz> questionlp: i have a hunch it is because of the dyld support in 2.3. 2.2 doesn't work with shared libraries right
04:01:30 <questionlp> yeah
04:01:46 <questionlp> and 2.3 has some nice features and feature updates
04:01:59 <questionlp> it's also probably a marketing thing for apple as well
04:02:19 <jerenkrantz> knowing the darwin team, i bet it's purely because of the dylib thing
04:02:21 <SteveMallett> "viral"
04:02:32 <danese> Yeah...Apache vs. FSF
04:02:37 <danese> its an old story
04:02:42 <SteveMallett> oh I know
04:03:11 <danese> Problem is, they actually have a point
04:03:19 * questionlp nods
04:03:20 <SteveMallett> which
04:03:28 <MacRat> which end is pointed?
04:03:29 <danese> We have projects using all the possible license schemes, and the ones under Apache actually do the best
04:03:36 <questionlp> just think of the libvorbis was only gpl'd
04:04:06 <SteveMallett> danese: it's so much easier to understand.
04:04:14 <danese> Where "best" is defined as "attracts the most external committers" and/or "creates unexpected innovations"
04:04:16 <Diablo-D3> Woah.
04:04:18 <SteveMallett> and it's not scary
04:04:30 <Diablo-D3> Has anyone tried the website on mozilla yet?
04:04:35 <danese> No, I think its the possibility of doing whatever you want
04:04:37 <questionlp> which site?
04:04:45 <danese> and an insistence on the health of the commons
04:04:46 <Diablo-D3> the one in the topic
04:04:46 <SteveMallett> hmmm
04:04:49 <jerenkrantz> SteveMallett: it's a problem that might get muddied with a new apache license. it's going to be about as long as the GPL. which sort of sucks.
04:05:03 <SteveMallett> ekkk
04:05:11 <DrBacchus> Where's ACO when you need him?
04:05:14 <danese> Now, its not done yet
04:05:29 <danese> I think Brian is worried about the length and complexity
04:05:30 <Diablo-D3> The top url is causing mozilla to require a bottom scrollbar =P
04:05:38 <questionlp> man... major horizantal scrollage
04:05:40 <jerenkrantz> danese: right. i should prolly shut up on this now.
04:05:52 <danese> I can't actually READ the URL...again with the oldness
04:06:00 <questionlp> damn... that's my url too :P
04:07:14 <questionlp> the gpl license is tooo long
04:07:30 <danese> And the new one will be longer (or at least as long)
04:07:37 <Diablo-D3> questionlp: its shorter than the ms eula
04:07:38 <questionlp> ugh
04:07:48 <jerenkrantz> questionlp: the problem is if you listen to lawyers, it has to be long.
04:07:53 <questionlp> Diablo-D3: and the End User Product Use Rights doc too
04:08:07 <mjkrooker> same scrolling issue with Safari
04:08:12 <jerenkrantz> i hope they do the 'ms food eula' for the lunch. it'll be hilarious.
04:08:22 <questionlp> it's my long-ass url that was caught by the bot
04:08:28 <Diablo-D3> eula = end user liscense agreement... isnt it the same thing as the eupur?
04:08:46 <danese> Did you guys see the /. saying "don't eat the free lunch...it could be an easy way to wipe out Open Source"?
04:08:47 <questionlp> not quite
04:08:49 <DiabloD3> erp.
04:08:51 <questionlp> but close
04:09:24 <danese> We could do a lunch EULA...does anybody else have Hydra?
04:09:27 <questionlp> EUPUR expands the EULA with additional explanations that aren't captured in the EULA as a hole
04:09:39 <MacRat> It is ok to eat the lunch as long as you don't drink the cool-ade.
04:09:55 <Diablo-D3> Well, I think I need a new liscense
04:10:05 <Diablo-D3> FMSL. (Guess what it stands for.)
04:10:11 <jerenkrantz> imagine if they did a Jim Jones on the lunch. kill Guido and Larry in one shot
04:10:17 <questionlp> Fuck Microsoft Licensing?
04:10:31 <Diablo-D3> Bingo.
04:10:41 <questionlp> :)
04:10:51 <Diablo-D3> (and that was my manditory microsoft bash for the day.)
04:11:02 <questionlp> heh
04:11:36 <danese> Apache responsible for what percentage of traffic on the web?
04:11:56 <questionlp> too much? :D
04:11:58 <jerenkrantz> danese: ?
04:12:05 <MacRat> rush hour traffic.
04:12:08 <oulipo> fair question; I was also curious if enterprises are using it more
04:12:12 <danese> Guy in front of me really impressed that Apache is on one box...but that's not actually true I think
04:12:21 <jerenkrantz> danese: two boxes.
04:12:26 <jerenkrantz> one is CVS. one is mail/web.
04:12:28 <questionlp> i think it's more of a mini cluster
04:12:35 <jerenkrantz> dual pii's.
04:12:39 <jerenkrantz> freebsd.
04:12:39 <danese> What about the one that hosts Jakarta?
04:12:49 <questionlp> not all of the ASF projects are on the Apache web server
04:12:51 <jerenkrantz> nagoya? that got removed. it only does bugzilla now
04:12:53 <Diablo-D3> Apache handles most websites, if thats what you're asking.
04:12:55 <questionlp> PHP is on it's own...
04:13:06 <jerenkrantz> questionlp: PHP is a separate issue.
04:13:26 <oulipo> Diablo-D3: no, i tink it is rather bandwidth handling
04:13:38 <jerenkrantz> we just got a new box and plan to move back to one box for everything.
04:13:54 <Diablo-D3> I dont understand the question.
04:14:01 <danese> Monthly bill for bandwidth...that's got to be a good thing for CollabNet...it was getting expensive
04:14:10 <Diablo-D3> The biggest websites in the world use apache, and most websites use apache.
04:14:13 <danese> My question?
04:14:16 <jerenkrantz> danese: indeed. but, we need to pay for it now.
04:14:22 <oulipo> danese: charity begins at home... ;)
04:14:24 <danese> Are you counting WebSphere?
04:14:30 <Diablo-D3> <danese> Apache responsible for what percentage of traffic on the web?
04:14:37 <Diablo-D3> that question.
04:14:38 <jerenkrantz> i should have told greg to mention we take paypal donations now. darn.
04:14:45 <danese> Hey, I do what I can to get $$$ to Apache.
04:14:46 <Diablo-D3> If its what webserver software takes the most hits, its apache.
04:14:58 <jerenkrantz> danese: oh, i know. ;-)
04:15:01 <danese> And what about the CafePress teeshirts?
04:15:07 <Diablo-D3> danese: isnt there a donation link somewhere on apache.org?
04:15:13 <DrBacchus> And we offer the optional ACO ridiculing service.
04:15:26 <jerenkrantz> DrBacchus: lol. oh, man.
04:15:33 <danese> More hair
04:15:38 <DrBacchus> Hey, I can actually hear him
04:15:40 <questionlp> lol
04:15:42 <SteveMallett> danese: haha
04:16:03 <questionlp> and more hair and more hair
04:16:09 <questionlp> :P
04:16:23 <jerenkrantz>http://www.apache.org/foundation/contributing.html
04:16:26 <MacRat> Danese has left the room
04:16:37 <Diablo-D3> Bacchus... as in the Baccus that drowned more humans than Neptune?
04:16:40 * edd finally makes it into Portland
04:16:47 <lilo> edd: congrats :)
04:16:51 <SteveMallett> edd: welcome
04:16:52 <DrBacchus> Diablo-D3: It's a little unfair to pin that on me.
04:16:52 <MacRat> Danese is at the mic, look out!
04:16:59 <SteveMallett> oh ph
04:17:00 <lilo> cool
04:17:00 <questionlp> uh-oh!
04:17:07 <jerenkrantz> oh, this should be fun
04:17:30 <jerenkrantz> hahahha. go danese!
04:17:30 <mjkrooker> very nice
04:17:43 <questionlp> danese: nice ;)
04:18:10 <lilo> hmmm, dc_oscon
04:18:17 * edd resurrects the chump weblog bot
04:18:18 <danese> But what about the Tom Lord tee shirts?
04:18:21 <lilo> ahhhh
04:18:30 <jerenkrantz> danese: no, those aren't ASF. thanks!
04:18:31 * lilo notes that freenode could use a plug 8)
04:18:34 * rooneg should wear his tom lord t-shirt tomorrow...
04:18:51 * questionlp plugs freenode with lili
04:18:53 <questionlp> :D
04:18:57 <lilo> hmph :)
04:18:59 <edd> lilo: sure thing. will amend template asap. wanna msg me some suitabletext?
04:19:02 <questionlp> s/lili/lilo/
04:19:27 <DrBacchus> My DrBacchus TShirt did not arrive before I left for the conference :-(
04:19:27 <lilo> edd: I'll cc: you what I sent to Schulyer
04:19:31 <lilo> edd: what email addy?
04:19:34 <questionlp> what's with the disco music?
04:19:39 <edd> lilo: edd@usefulinc.com
04:19:54 <DrBacchus> FOCUS
04:20:39 <DrBacchus> So when is Apache 2.0 coming out?
04:20:47 <questionlp> apache 2.x is out
04:20:52 <BilldaCat> it just doesnt work
04:21:01 <questionlp> yeah... unfortunately
04:21:01 <lilo> sent
04:21:04 <DrBacchus> heh
04:21:06 <DrBacchus> Actually ...
04:21:15 <DrBacchus> I'm an ASF member, and I'm running 2.0 on my web site.
04:21:18 <questionlp> it works, but not properly like 1.3.x
04:21:19 <lilo> darn, I should have sent Schulyer the contrib url, I sent him the about url instead 8)
04:21:22 <BilldaCat> correct
04:21:24 <DrBacchus> It was yet another weak attempt at humor.
04:21:28 <Diablo-D3> I think its cool that there is such a thing as an oss con.
04:23:38 <SteveMallett> cruise talks just make me jealous
04:23:45 <questionlp> heh
04:24:02 <danese> bye lads...I'm off to drink and drive (no really to walk)
04:24:04 <DrBacchus> Being penned up on a boat with a few hundred geeks does not sound like my idea of a vacation.
04:24:10 * Improv_Away yawns
04:24:11 <Improv_Away> Improv_Away is now known as Improv
04:24:11 <SteveMallett> cya danese
04:24:12 <questionlp> nite danese
04:24:16 <lilo> DrBacchus: put that way, it does sound a bit scary 8)
04:24:21 <questionlp> hey Improv :)
04:24:26 <Improv> Hi there :)
04:24:30 <Diablo-D3> I would like to mention that Larry scares me.
04:24:40 <questionlp> Larry and RMS scare me :)
04:24:40 <Diablo-D3> Specifically, in reference to ponie.
04:24:45 <SteveMallett> Larry Elison?
04:24:49 <DrBacchus> Just think. a week on a boat with Randal Schwartz, and YOU CAN'T LEAVE.
04:24:52 <questionlp> both ;)
04:24:53 <Diablo-D3> no, larry wall
04:25:15 * Improv likes RMS
04:25:32 <lilo> Improv: I think he grew on me
04:25:40 <lilo> hey gstein
04:25:45 <gstein> hey
04:25:47 <rooneg> gstein: nice talk
04:25:53 <gstein> rooneg: thanks!
04:25:53 <SteveMallett> gstein: ++
04:26:00 <jerenkrantz> gstein: woo-hoo.
04:26:04 * gstein smiles
04:26:18 <Diablo-D3> I like rms the way I like telling a pitbull to attack someone I dont like.
04:26:33 <lilo> hmm
04:26:34 * Improv is a stallmanist :)
04:26:36 * rooneg notes gstein talked about using the new hardware for a cvs server instead of an svn server ;-)
04:26:37 <gstein> hard to figure out the Right Thing to talk about given that it wasn't possible to talk about a single project like the other States...
04:26:47 <gstein> rooneg: hehe
04:26:51 <gstein> was thinking about that, yah,
04:26:58 <edd> lilo: thanks, i updated the credits box. look forward to getting this thing going tomorrow in earnest
04:27:01 <gstein> but figured it would be a bit self-serving to plug subversion :-)
04:27:10 <lilo> edd: great :)
04:27:11 <questionlp> gstein: is the revised license going to be bsd-like?
04:27:11 <jerenkrantz> gstein: probably the least technical talk of all of them. well, who knows what larry was talking about...
04:27:14 <Improv> I do find it very odd that there's so much attention on MySQL here
04:27:16 * edd wanders off to get a shower then mosey down to where everyone else (& beer) is
04:27:18 <Improv> *grumble*
04:27:20 <lilo> edd: did you get our pager numbers?
04:27:22 <gstein> questionlp: yes
04:27:22 <jerenkrantz> Improv: LAMP?
04:27:24 <lilo> edd: (email)
04:27:28 <questionlp> thanks :)
04:27:31 <Diablo-D3> Its probably wrong to consider RMS as a weapon, though.
04:27:37 <DrBacchus> questionlp: It's going to be the HJTI license. (Here, Just Take It)
04:27:44 <Improv> jeren: IMO, Postgres is far more deserving of a place in there than MySQL
04:27:45 <gstein> questionlp: there are some things that need clarification (e.g. trademarks, patents, etc) and the contributor agreement hing,
04:27:55 <questionlp> ah... ok
04:27:56 <Improv> Although admittedly, it doesn't make as nice an acronym
04:27:57 <gstein> but underneath that, it will continue to have the BSD-ish flexibility
04:28:02 <jerenkrantz> Improv: don't disagree. but, whomever coined LAMP, like mysql
04:28:03 <Diablo-D3> But thats what he is. Hes oss's version of a nuclear weapon.
04:28:20 <jerenkrantz> Diablo-D3: 'stink bomb' is a better analogy
04:28:25 <gstein> jerenkrantz: hehe... least technical. that's for sure.
04:28:29 <DrBacchus> Diablo-D3: He doesn't believe in the term OSS.
04:28:33 <lilo> I like postgresql a lot
04:28:43 <questionlp> pgsql is nice...
04:28:45 <Improv> I also must grumble that they're closing the lab here too early, just like previous years.
04:28:48 <lilo> seems to be very solid stuff, it's getting better
04:28:50 <rooneg> it would have been hard to have a 'technical' talk about all the apache projects...
04:28:58 <DrBacchus> Improv: 802.11 is up all nght
04:29:02 <jerenkrantz> we'd need a whole convention for that...oh...wait...
04:29:04 <jerenkrantz> we do!
04:29:08 <gstein> ouch!
04:29:09 <Improv> DrBacchus: My laptop died some months back
04:29:21 <gstein> rooneg: ya
04:29:22 <rooneg> wow, that was harsh, but true.
04:29:24 <SteveMallett> ouch
04:29:26 <Diablo-D3> well, okay... for all you rmsists... Free Software.
04:29:27 <questionlp> although postgresql.com is proving more commercial support into the public eye... there is always redhat's version
04:29:45 <Improv> o/~ Join us now, and share the software o/~
04:29:58 * lilo grew up with science fiction fandom and is used to folks like RMS
04:30:09 <questionlp> lilo: lol
04:30:15 <Diablo-D3> lilo: And I use them as weapons too =P
04:30:17 <questionlp> damn... that was a finger twister
04:30:20 <DrBacchus> You can get used to RMS?
04:30:21 <jerenkrantz> Improv: heh. did you see RMS last year?
04:30:30 <Improv> jeren: No -- I wasn't here last year
04:30:33 * Diablo-D3 sends the startrek fandom after berman...
04:30:37 <lilo> DrBacchus: you can get used to a lot 8)
04:30:41 <questionlp> although RMS in Revolution OS didn't seem too, too bad
04:30:47 <jerenkrantz> Improv: he did a keynote last year.
04:30:49 <Improv> jeren: I was moving between Columbus and Pgh at the time
04:30:52 <lilo> DrBacchus: and the staff of FSF are very professional :)
04:30:56 <Improv> jeren: Argh, I regret missing that.
04:30:58 <gstein> rms last year was awful
04:31:07 * jerenkrantz agrees with gstein
04:31:08 <gstein> I found him to be a very poor speaker
04:31:09 <lilo> DrBacchus: RMS, well, he's RMS
04:31:14 <DrBacchus> lilo: I like Brad. He doesn't make me want to strangle puppies.
04:31:17 <Diablo-D3> Heh
04:31:19 <Improv> Actually, the conference this year doesn't seem to be as interesting as the 3 past years
04:31:26 <DrBacchus> RMS, on the other hand ...
04:31:32 <Improv> (well, 4 past years minus last year, which I missed)
04:31:40 <questionlp> this is my first one
04:31:41 <gstein> haven't had a chance to look at the schedule yet
04:31:45 <Diablo-D3> RMS is like... like... that scary old dude that everyone stays away from because he eats little children
04:31:48 <gstein> figure out what I might go to
04:31:48 <lilo> DrBacchus: emphatically yes....he's very professional
04:31:50 <questionlp> mostly because it's so close to home :D
04:31:56 <jerenkrantz> i heard someone who was at the MIT/Harvard conference last month and said RMS is starting to be polished. perhaps Brad et al are starting to get him better?
04:31:59 * lilo thwaps Diablo-D3 ;)
04:32:11 <Improv> I wonder if the party will be worth going to
04:32:18 <lilo> jerenkrantz: well, if you want to accomplish things, you hire professional people and take their advice
04:32:19 <questionlp> i'm not going
04:32:21 <Improv> I'm not much of a party person.
04:32:26 <questionlp> same here
04:32:31 <Diablo-D3> x_X
04:32:32 <questionlp> it seems to be mostly a way to get drunk
04:32:39 <lilo> jerenkrantz: I think he's done a lot but he could do more for sure
04:32:41 <gstein> I'm all over it
04:32:44 <Improv> Ahh. It might help if I drunk.
04:32:45 <jerenkrantz> since it is at a restaurant, it'll have to close. unlike last year.......
04:32:50 * rooneg hears rumors that gstein can drink like a fish, and needs to see if it's true...
04:32:57 * gstein grins at rooneg
04:32:59 <jerenkrantz> rooneg: don't tempt him! no!
04:33:07 <questionlp> i drink maybe one guiness or hard lemonade every month
04:33:08 <Diablo-D3> Okay, RMS is like lilo.
04:33:10 <gstein> rooneg: I'll show you, if you match me
04:33:16 <lilo> Diablo-D3: erm?
04:33:18 * jerenkrantz winces
04:33:18 * Diablo-D3 gets back at lilo XD
04:33:19 <DrBacchus> questionlp: but it's REALLY REALLY BIG
04:33:22 <questionlp> so yeah, i'm not much into drinking
04:33:31 <gstein> questionlp: heh. that's a starter :-)
04:33:36 <rooneg> gstein: somehow, i'm thinking this is going to be one of those 'seemed like a good idea at the time' kind of nights...
04:33:36 * lilo sighs
04:33:39 <jerenkrantz> rooneg: you don't even know!
04:33:39 * lilo is boringly unique
04:33:40 <questionlp> DrBacchus: no... i can't finish a can of guiness or hard lemonade
04:33:45 <Diablo-D3> lilo: I was insulting someone.
04:33:52 <lilo> Diablo-D3: uh, okay
04:33:53 * gstein grins at rooneg
04:33:55 <Diablo-D3> It didnt quite work.
04:34:02 <Diablo-D3> Anyhow
04:34:06 <gstein> jerenkrantz and I have drank together :-)
04:34:14 <Diablo-D3> So how many people are at oscon?
04:34:21 <jerenkrantz> gstein: yes, we have. =)
04:34:37 <DrBacchus> Diablo-D3: Asking gnat ...
04:34:40 <gstein> Diablo-D3: I'd think most of the people in this channel
04:34:44 <questionlp> gstein: i know that some of the ASF servers are running freebsd... is that still the case?
04:34:46 <jerenkrantz> 'your presentation is in 10 minutes, greg! wake up!'
04:34:57 <gstein> questionlp: yes
04:35:03 <DrBacchus> 'your presentation is starting, wake up.'
04:35:03 <questionlp> woo :)
04:35:05 <gstein> jerenkrantz: ouch. that was a tough one.
04:35:18 <gstein> took me five minutes to wake up
04:35:21 <questionlp> heh... some juicy news for us bsd guys ;)
04:35:22 <DrBacchus> Diablo-D3: 1500 registered
04:35:25 <Diablo-D3> gstein: I didnt mean that. I ment how many people _total_ are at oscon?
04:35:26 <gstein> and that was after I had been talking for five minutes already :-)
04:35:33 <jerenkrantz> make sure you tell the planners no session before noon for you
04:35:37 <Diablo-D3> DrBacchus: _woah_
04:35:39 <DrBacchus> heh
04:35:39 <lilo> Diablo-D3: I heard an estimate of 1,500
04:35:41 <Diablo-D3> oscon is huge
04:35:42 * gstein grins Diablo-D3... figured that out after I hit <return> (of course)
04:35:47 <DrBacchus> <gnat> drb: that doesn't include janitors, but includes press, exhibitors, exhibit hall passes, and anyone else who gets a badge.
04:36:02 <gstein> jerenkrantz: unfortunately, I think my talk on Friday is at 11am
04:36:07 <gstein> but tomorrow is great. like 5pm
04:36:14 <lilo> that's a nice-sized conference
04:36:15 <DrBacchus> gstein: That's pretty early in the morning, dude.
04:36:20 <rooneg> gstein: yeah, but you can talk about webdav in your sleep, so it's ok
04:36:27 <gstein> DrBacchus: 11am is *WAY* better than the 9am at ApacheCon
04:36:40 <DrBacchus> gstein: I did a 8am bof at apachecon.
04:36:42 <gstein> I had been drinking for about six hours straight, went to bet at 4am
04:36:54 <DrBacchus> And then I did it again when the folks showed up at a bout 9.
04:36:55 <gstein> got up at 8:45 to go talk at 9am
04:36:57 <jerenkrantz> 8AM BOFs are stupid.
04:36:58 <DrBacchus> That sucked.
04:36:59 <Diablo-D3> Bah, I dont go to bed until 11am! ;)
04:37:18 <jerenkrantz> wtf goes to an 8AM BOF?
04:37:32 <questionlp> let's get some caffiene and sleep in? ;)
04:37:34 <DrBacchus> jerenkrantz: Well, there were about 2 people there at 8.
04:37:39 <Improv> Oh, nice, the blog bof already happened
04:37:50 <jerenkrantz> DrBacchus: you and Ken?
04:37:59 <DrBacchus> jerenkrantz: Ken wasn't there.
04:38:20 <jerenkrantz> if it wasn't at 8AM, i would have been at that one. (authentication, right?)
04:38:20 <DrBacchus> jerenkrantz: It was the Apache 2.1 auth bof. Some guy was supposed to show up to help me with it.
04:38:25 <Improv> I apparently had to check during the 2 hours between my last class and the keynotes to find out that it was going on during the keynotes.
04:38:26 * jerenkrantz looks around
04:38:28 <DrBacchus> heh
04:38:29 <Improv> Grr.
04:38:31 <jerenkrantz> dunno who that could have been.
04:38:51 <gstein> hehe
04:39:00 <BilldaCat> 8am .. grr
04:39:10 <BilldaCat> i got like the worst room in the hotel
04:39:14 <BilldaCat> right next to the elevators
04:39:19 <DrBacchus> You think he'll keep going until 10?
04:39:26 * Improv isn't even in the hotel
04:39:28 <BilldaCat> so like every morning during the morning rush .. DING DING DING .. wakes me up .. the worst.
04:39:33 <gstein> "futex"
04:39:34 <questionlp> now if only SMPng gets finished and put into FreeBSD 5.x-RELEASE!
04:39:40 * Improv is staying at the DaysInn down the street..
04:39:44 <gstein> "oh yah?! futex THIS!"
04:39:49 <BilldaCat> ahh
04:39:51 <questionlp> futile execution ;)
04:39:57 <Diablo-D3> gstein: heheh
04:40:11 <gstein> Improv: I'm down at the four points
04:40:15 <BilldaCat> so when are people heading to this activestate thing?
04:40:22 <DrBacchus> When Theo stops talking.
04:40:22 <gstein> BilldaCat: after Ted's talk
04:40:27 <BilldaCat> ok
04:40:30 <questionlp> i'm going home afterwards
04:40:35 <Improv> Theo?!
04:40:42 <questionlp> theodore
04:40:44 <gstein> I have some drinking to do with rooneg
04:40:47 <Improv> Aww, darn
04:40:52 <questionlp> not to be mistaken with theo de raadt ;)
04:40:58 <gstein> questionlp: "Ted"
04:41:00 <Improv> I was hoping Theo de Raadt was here.
04:41:05 <questionlp> same here
04:41:06 <Diablo-D3> Heh.
04:41:13 <questionlp> or someone from freebsd or wasabi systemsw
04:41:17 * rooneg is slightly worried
04:41:18 <Diablo-D3> confusing anyone with raadt is an insult
04:41:28 <DrBacchus> I try not to think about the OS if at all possible. I'm blissfully ignorant about the stuff he's talking about.
04:41:28 <questionlp> :P
04:41:30 <Improv> I mean, really, we're missing out on a lot of interesting people and sessions this time.
04:41:52 <gstein> Improv: hunh? how you missing out?
04:41:57 <Diablo-D3> So, wait
04:41:58 <gstein> because the simul tracks?
04:42:07 <Diablo-D3> if it isnt raadt, then which theo is it?
04:42:18 <Diablo-D3> ts'o?
04:42:19 <DrBacchus> Will the new Linux have dav-fs support?
04:42:26 <questionlp> theo from the crosby's?
04:42:31 <gstein> Diablo-D3: yes. misspoke. he goes by Ted T'so
04:42:33 <questionlp> cosby's
04:42:48 <gstein> DrBacchus: davfs2 is based on the coda fs
04:42:49 <Improv> No Theo, no RMS, too much a focus on MySQL, not much *BSD talk, Julian Cash isn't here (I *REALLY* hope he comes), etc
04:42:49 <Diablo-D3> questionlp: hah
04:43:05 <questionlp> little if any bsd talk :(
04:43:12 <Diablo-D3> heh
04:43:15 <Diablo-D3> well
04:43:16 <Diablo-D3> bsd doesnt need talk
04:43:17 <jerenkrantz> Cash is always hilarious.
04:43:19 <BilldaCat> the new features in mysql class was a zzzzz
04:43:21 <DrBacchus> gargantuan++ # nice word.
04:43:24 <Improv> Where's the mozilla series?
04:43:26 <questionlp> which sucks since i'm from daemon news, which limits what bsd stuff i can report on
04:43:28 <gstein> DrBacchus: you use the coda kernel FS and plug in a new user-space daemon that speaks DAV to the server
04:43:32 <Diablo-D3> BSD has been around... forever, and works nice.
04:43:37 <questionlp> yeah...
04:43:40 <DrBacchus> gstein: Cool
04:43:42 <jerenkrantz> is there more? geeeeeesh.
04:43:44 <questionlp> but some advocacy would have been nice
04:43:48 <Diablo-D3> Do you really have to stand up infront of a crowd and talk about it?
04:43:59 <gstein> DrBacchus: so that works today on both linux and solaris (both ship with a code fs)
04:44:09 <Improv> Darn it, I can't believe I forgot my ORA FSF protest shirt :)
04:44:10 <Diablo-D3> I think the time is to use the name linux, and run with it
04:44:23 <Diablo-D3> people recognize linux
04:44:30 <gstein> I wanted to bring my Tom Lord shirt,
04:44:32 <gstein> but forgot it
04:44:33 <BilldaCat> lunix
04:44:35 <Diablo-D3> its almost at household word status
04:44:45 <gstein> "Your Open Source Project Sucks" -- Tom Lord
04:44:49 <BilldaCat> lol
04:44:55 <rooneg> i had to decide between my tom lord shirt and my svn shirt... went with svn today, tlord tomorrow ;-)
04:44:58 <jerenkrantz> i wore mine last week...people were like, 'who's tom lord?'...totally wrong audience for that shirt
04:45:02 <Diablo-D3> gstein: tom lord is cool
04:45:03 <questionlp> which is also SCO's target ;)
04:45:19 <Improv> Also, it's irritating that we don't get meals
04:45:22 <Diablo-D3> ugh, dont mention sco
04:45:24 * gstein nods at rooneg. awesome
04:45:26 <rooneg> i wore the tlord shirt to work, and had to explain it to people all day long
04:45:29 <Diablo-D3> This week, I hate them more than ms
04:45:40 <jerenkrantz> Improv: lunch wed & thurs?
04:45:47 <gstein> rooneg: heh
04:45:50 <gstein> not at collabnet :-)
04:45:54 <DrBacchus> The YAPC t-shirt takes more time to explain that it's worth. I've stopped wearing it.
04:45:58 <rooneg> gstein: hire me ;-)
04:45:59 <gstein>http://www.cafeshops.com/yoss
04:45:59 <Improv> jeren: It should be part of the convention, and it should not be hosted by microsoft
04:45:59 <dc_oscon> C: http://www.cafeshops.com/yoss from gstein
04:46:12 <gstein> oh hell. what is that bot?
04:46:14 <DrBacchus> YAPC: Laziness, Impatience, Hubris, pick any three.
04:46:14 <dc_oscon> Label YAPC not found.
04:46:15 <Diablo-D3> Did you guys hear about Vivendi earlier?
04:46:20 <gstein> what did it just do with my url?
04:46:21 <DrBacchus> That takes about 20 minutes to explain.
04:46:24 <Diablo-D3> Like, a few weeks ago?
04:46:29 <questionlp> what about vivendi?
04:46:30 <BilldaCat> oh who cares that it's hosted by microsoft
04:46:37 <BilldaCat> someone gives you free food, you eat it and dont ask questions
04:46:45 <BilldaCat> thats what i was always taught
04:46:47 <jerenkrantz> Improv: oh, bah. free food...
04:46:53 * gstein agrees with BilldaCat
04:46:53 <Improv> I would be very happy if microsoft were just not here at all.
04:47:00 <questionlp> part of my paycheck is provided indirectly by microsoft :(
04:47:01 <DrBacchus> BilldaCat: Folks are always digging for controversy where there is none.
04:47:05 <Diablo-D3> Vivendi sent the legal equivlent of what tom lord said to freecraft.
04:47:06 <BilldaCat> dr: yep
04:47:07 <jerenkrantz> Improv: they are not going anywhere.
04:47:15 * rooneg things people should stop whining about MS
04:47:25 <Improv> jeren: They have no place here.
04:47:30 <gstein> bah
04:47:31 <jerenkrantz> how much more can there be on linux?
04:47:32 <BilldaCat> their place is to give me free food
04:47:40 <jerenkrantz> BilldaCat: +1
04:47:43 <Diablo-D3> A cease and desist letter because freecraft's name is too similiar to what blizzard uses.
04:47:43 <gstein> msft has delivered GPL code :-)
04:48:08 <gstein> Mark Hammond and I did some .NET work and made 'em release it under GPL :-)
04:48:10 * Diablo-D3 hates all sorts of large corperations.
04:48:15 * jerenkrantz starts thinking of activestate beer
04:48:19 <mxmasster> anyone know what happened with the state of the onion
04:48:20 <BilldaCat> ... beeeeer
04:48:27 <DrBacchus> Diablo-D3: Yeah, those damned capitalists.
04:48:52 <DrBacchus> mxmasster: What happened with it? What do you mean?
04:48:52 <Diablo-D3> Well, I hate vivendi because of bnetd, farscape, then freecraft
04:48:53 <BilldaCat> i'm a president of a little startup, my view on corporations has changed :)
04:49:04 <gstein> BilldaCat: heh
04:49:14 <Diablo-D3> And I hate microsoft because they give me headaches via windows
04:49:21 <gstein> my view on msft was just fine. when they bought my company, it was even better. :-)
04:49:28 <questionlp> lol
04:49:28 <rjbs> I hate them because they killed my dog.
04:49:33 <jerenkrantz> gstein: if they give me money, cool!
04:49:38 <gstein> hehe
04:49:39 <BilldaCat> food, money, all good
04:49:45 <Improv> gstein: You seem familiar, somehow. Have we met before?
04:49:46 <Diablo-D3> And I hate VA because they arnt spending enough money on osdn
04:49:55 <BilldaCat> does VA have any money left?
04:49:57 <DrBacchus> I want a pony.
04:49:59 <BilldaCat> i didnt even know they were sitll around.
04:50:04 <jerenkrantz> DrBacchus: ponie!
04:50:04 <Improv> gstein: Do you work on subversion, maybe?
04:50:05 <questionlp> and a parrot
04:50:06 <jerenkrantz> get it right!
04:50:08 <BilldaCat> i just assumed they filed for chapter 11 already
04:50:24 <Diablo-D3> Actually, I dont care about VA
04:50:33 <Diablo-D3> I do, however, care about OSDN.
04:50:33 <DrBacchus> BilldaCat: MS did?
04:50:35 <gstein> Improv: yes
04:50:37 <rooneg> Improv: gstein is subversion's official code reviewer ;-)
04:50:38 <DrBacchus> BilldaCat: Wow. I missed that.
04:50:44 <BilldaCat> systems are too expensive :\ or they were when my company was in the market for some. went with dell instead
04:50:53 <Improv> gstein: Ahh, I thought we had talked before. You probably don't remember me :)
04:50:59 <gstein> I do :-)
04:51:10 <gstein> you also talked at length about viewcvs with me,
04:51:13 <lilo> BilldaCat: I don't think they have
04:51:18 <gstein> before realizing that I wrote it :-)
04:51:26 <lilo> BilldaCat: but the numbers sure look like they will sooner or later
04:51:28 <Improv> gstein: How was I to know? :)
04:51:35 <BilldaCat> i guess they are still around, no domain for sale sign up yet
04:51:42 <gstein> rooneg: heh. "official code reviewer" ... hehe
04:51:51 <questionlp> haha
04:51:53 <jerenkrantz> i saw larry augustin at a conference a few months ago
04:51:56 <Diablo-D3> lilo: help me out here, isnt osdn good for the community?
04:51:56 <gstein> rooneg: you could also say the "official owner" to some extent :-)
04:52:06 <rooneg> gstein: that to i suppose
04:52:09 <lilo> Diablo-D3: hmmmm
04:52:11 <lilo> Diablo-D3: I think so
04:52:15 <jerenkrantz> yea! done!
04:52:16 <jerenkrantz> beer!
04:52:16 <gstein> Improv: look at the viewcvs page maybe? :-)
04:52:18 <rooneg> to the bar!
04:52:20 <DrBacchus> beer &
04:52:20 <lilo> Diablo-D3: it's too centralized though
04:52:21 <gstein> vodka!
04:52:26 <gstein> scotch!
04:52:26 <questionlp> heh
04:52:28 <Improv> I guess I'll go to the oscon party. Maybe I'll get some fries.
04:52:29 <questionlp> i'm heading home
04:52:34 <questionlp> nice talking to yall
04:52:35 <gstein> laterz questionlp
04:52:40 <Improv> Cya questi
04:52:47 <lilo> Diablo-D3: and a bit too tightly-coupled to a painfully-difficult business model
04:52:56 <questionlp> nite yall
04:52:57 <Improv> Are people all leaving for it now?
04:53:02 <questionlp> i'm not ;)
04:53:10 <BilldaCat> anyone meeting up first? i know like, 1 person here
04:53:11 <questionlp> but i think most are
04:53:27 <Improv> Bill: Where are you?
04:53:28 <questionlp> BilldaCat: maybe... :)
04:53:38 <questionlp> lobby?
04:53:43 <BilldaCat> room 624 in the downtown marriott .. people want to meet in the lobby?
04:53:48 * BilldaCat is gambling online killing time
04:53:52 <questionlp> prolly
04:53:55 <Diablo-D3> lilo: I agree
04:53:56 <questionlp> i know improv
04:54:10 <Diablo-D3> lilo: but the centralization isnt _too_ bad
04:54:10 <questionlp> so i guess i can maybe spot you with him?
04:54:14 <Improv> Lobby sounds ok to me
04:54:19 <BilldaCat> cool cool
04:54:21 <questionlp> k... cya in a couple then
04:54:21 <lilo> Diablo-D3: I could talk about that for about a year 8)
04:54:24 <lilo> Diablo-D3: it's bad
04:54:28 <lilo> hey SteveMallett
04:54:52 <SteveMallett> hi lilo
04:55:22 <Diablo-D3> lilo: well, its bad because VA isnt buying more hardware and badnwith
04:55:25 <Improv> Improv is now known as Improv_Away
04:55:35 <Diablo-D3> lilo: its not bad because the websites can share resources
04:55:41 <Isle> ODMSGGSDGKJSDF
04:55:43 <Isle> SDFHKSDJFHSD
04:55:46 <Isle> erm
04:55:51 <BilldaCat> fhqwhgads
04:55:52 * lilo looks at Isle
04:56:09 <Isle> sorry, uhh, was my kid
04:56:17 <lilo> ah
04:56:40 <BilldaCat> BilldaCat is now known as Bill_DRNK
04:56:42 <Diablo-D3> woah
04:56:45 <Diablo-D3> lilo broke =P
04:57:56 <lilo> hmmm?
04:58:20 * Diablo-D3 points above ;)
04:58:26 <lilo> Diablo-D3: anyway, not sure it's germane
04:59:29 <Diablo-D3> Sharing resources is never bad
04:59:38 <lilo> Diablo-D3: the planet is full of *nix servers
04:59:45 <Diablo-D3> However, va is mostly bad.
04:59:51 <Diablo-D3> money good, idiot phbs bad.
04:59:59 <lilo> Diablo-D3: the only reason to create a potential single-point-of-failure is *cough*S-1*cough*
05:00:18 <Diablo-D3> erm?
05:00:46 <lilo> it's really not germane, and I already expressed the opinion long ago
05:01:03 <lilo> and I think a lot of good people have worked for VA
05:01:22 * lilo shrugs and moves on
05:01:48 <Diablo-D3> Heh
05:01:55 <Diablo-D3> A lot of good people have
05:02:01 <Diablo-D3> but a lot of bad people have as well.
05:02:14 <lilo> Diablo-D3: let's move on ;)
05:03:22 <Diablo-D3> Heh fine.
05:05:04 <lilo> hey Abstraction
05:05:10 <Abstraction> Hey
05:05:21 <Diablo-D3> hey Abstraction
05:05:43 <Abstraction> What's the score here?
05:06:00 <lilo> Abstraction: well, mostly at this point I think people are going out for drinks and food and getting some rest
05:06:06 <lilo> Abstraction: lot of travelling involved
05:06:27 <Diablo-D3> And the rest of us, who arnt at the con, are wishing we were
05:06:59 <Abstraction> Have most people headed to the ActiveState party?
05:07:09 <lilo> I wouldn't be surprised at all
05:07:21 <lilo> hard to tell for sure though
05:07:59 <Diablo-D3> lilo: I think you missed something in what I said, Im glad va is funding osdn, Im not glad that they are underfunding them.
06:43:21 <Diablo-D3> hey all
06:43:34 * Diablo-D3 gives the evil eye to lilo
06:52:09 <Bill_DRNK> Bill_DRNK is now known as BilldaCat
06:52:11 * BilldaCat looks around
06:53:27 * Diablo-D3 looks at BilldaCat
06:54:46 * BilldaCat looks at Diablo
06:54:51 <BilldaCat> -D3
06:54:53 <BilldaCat> :D
06:54:57 <BilldaCat> mmm, alcohol
06:55:19 <Diablo-D3> heh
06:55:21 * Diablo-D3 doesnt drink
06:56:20 <BilldaCat> i used to be like that
06:56:35 <BilldaCat> and then i started playing hockey, so i had to drink
06:56:39 <BilldaCat> and it was good
06:57:15 <Diablo-D3> Im not even old enough to drink anyhow
06:57:27 <BilldaCat> didn't stop me
06:57:38 <BilldaCat> at least you have something to look forward to :)
06:57:42 <BilldaCat> i'm an old man :(
06:57:44 <Diablo-D3> And I cant afford it.
06:57:57 <BilldaCat> yeah, drinking = expensive
06:57:59 <BilldaCat> :\
06:58:14 <Diablo-D3> "I go to OSCON for the chicks! Yeah, baby!" -- Spaceman
06:58:39 <BilldaCat> ...
06:58:43 <BilldaCat> there are chicks here?
06:59:25 <Diablo-D3> Dunno
06:59:42 * Diablo-D3 was just repeating a comment he saw off the no linux track article
07:00:07 <BilldaCat> lol
07:04:55 <BilldaCat> hi
07:05:14 <phroggy> Hi, I'm an unemployed Portland-area resident with no interest in paying money to attend the conference officially; what kinds of cool stuff is available to do for free?
07:05:32 <Diablo-D3> whats with everyone and the 31337 hostmasks?
07:05:42 <phroggy> mine's legit.
07:06:08 <crysflame> diablo: freenode staff get 31337 stuff
07:06:10 <Diablo-D3> of course it is, freenode checks if its valid.
07:06:15 <crysflame> phroggy: hang out, go to keynotes
07:06:17 <crysflame> and social events
07:06:23 <Diablo-D3> or atleast I think it is.
07:06:28 <crysflame> register for free online for an exhibit pass
07:06:32 <Diablo-D3> crysflame: I ment phroggy.
07:06:33 <crysflame> then go pick it up and hang out
07:06:46 <phroggy> ahh, there we go.
07:07:00 <crysflame> oh. i didn't tag phroggy's as leet :)
07:07:01 <Diablo-D3> crysflame: and staff dont even have real hostmasks =P
07:07:03 * crysflame cringes
07:07:06 <crysflame> that was phrased wrong
07:07:51 <Diablo-D3> heh.
07:07:56 * Diablo-D3 does a kefka laugh
07:08:34 * kefka takes out his King's Sword of Haste..
07:08:59 * crysflame puts on the ring of speed (+10), and dons his cap of protection from bugs (+6)
07:09:03 <Diablo-D3> uh, wrong game kefka
07:09:18 <Diablo-D3> crysflame: booting windows again?
07:09:53 <collord> nice seeing you again crysflame
07:10:12 <crysflame> hi collord
07:10:12 <crysflame> did i meet you sunday?
07:10:16 <crysflame> diablo: no
07:10:17 <collord> no, etech
07:10:31 * Diablo-D3 notices collord
07:10:55 <Diablo-D3> collord: you paying attention to #lf?
07:11:39 <crysflame> rock on
07:11:39 <crysflame> hiya
07:11:44 <crysflame> wish i'd seen you at oscon
07:12:33 <Diablo-D3> heh
07:12:41 <Diablo-D3> I wish I had the money to go =P
07:19:38 <BilldaCat> i wouldnt be here if my company wasnt paying for it all
07:19:40 <BilldaCat> only way to fly
07:19:46 <Diablo-D3> heh
07:19:52 <Diablo-D3> I live in maine, btw
07:19:56 <BilldaCat> DC here
07:19:59 <Diablo-D3> so Im _waaaaaaayyyy_ over here
07:20:06 <BilldaCat> eeaaaaaaaast coast
07:20:08 <Diablo-D3> Heh.
07:20:19 <BilldaCat> at least maine doesnt sux0r like dc
07:20:22 <Diablo-D3> yeah, why couldnt they have hosted it in... say... portland maine? ;)
07:20:32 <Diablo-D3> maine does sux0r
07:20:38 <Diablo-D3> it sux0rz l0tz0rz.
07:20:45 <Diablo-D3> No tech industry.
07:20:48 <Diablo-D3> None. At all.
07:20:50 <BilldaCat> dc is just all traffic :(
07:20:51 <Diablo-D3> Period.
07:20:59 <BilldaCat> i hate everyone in dc >:\
07:21:05 <Diablo-D3> Atleast jobs exist down there
07:21:10 <BilldaCat> true
07:21:13 <Diablo-D3> There is _nothing_ up here.
07:21:19 <BilldaCat> maine has more hockey
07:21:58 <Diablo-D3> hockey doesnt pay the bills.
07:22:23 <BilldaCat> hopefully with my company, it will eventually :)
07:22:47 <BilldaCat> <-- startup that does hockey stats for ice rinks etc.
07:23:28 <ppc> y0
07:23:29 <Diablo-D3> heh
07:23:34 <Diablo-D3> need a webdev?
07:23:39 <ppc> Nope
07:23:47 <Diablo-D3> hi ppc
07:23:54 * Diablo-D3 wasnt asking ppc
07:24:00 <ppc> Well you didnt specify
07:24:09 <ppc> If I didnt answer you and you were asking that could be rude
07:25:01 <Diablo-D3> Heh =P
07:25:10 <Diablo-D3> BilldaCat: so, do you need a webdev?
07:27:33 <Diablo-D3> ... heh
07:28:29 <BilldaCat> grr.. dumb laptop
07:28:53 <Diablo-D3> <BilldaCat> hopefully with my company, it will eventually :)
07:28:57 <Diablo-D3> <BilldaCat> <-- startup that does hockey stats for ice rinks etc.
07:28:59 <Diablo-D3> <Diablo-D3> need a webdev?
07:29:06 <BilldaCat> once we get profitable, perhaps :)
07:32:03 <Diablo-D3> Then remember me when you need one =)
07:54:53 <phroggy> I just registered for the free exhibit pass. What do I need to do, print the confirmation page and show it to them?
07:55:43 <crysflame> well
07:55:46 <crysflame> now your name is in the database
07:55:47 <crysflame> walk in
07:55:52 <crysflame> go upstairs, second floor
07:55:53 <crysflame> er
07:55:56 <crysflame> basement level 1
07:56:04 <crysflame> present identification, grovel
07:56:13 <crysflame> sure, print the confirmation page. that's always wise.
08:01:13 <phroggy> registration starts at 9:30?
08:03:07 <phroggy> hmm, Microsoft-sponsored lunch.
08:03:18 <phroggy> hope it's not as buggy as their software.
08:03:27 <crysflame> aaaugh
08:03:28 <crysflame> hahaha
08:03:29 <BilldaCat> lol
08:04:12 <phroggy> whoa, free Linux certification exams!
08:04:20 <UdontKnow> OScon, M$ sponsored lunch?
08:04:34 <UdontKnow> hehe, kinda scary
08:04:50 <phroggy> yes, tomorrow, 12:15-1:45 in the exhibit hall.
08:05:03 <BilldaCat> f00d
08:05:52 <phroggy> I really should have planned on this a long time ago, instead of ignoring it until the last minute and then deciding I might want to show up.
08:06:32 <UdontKnow> enjoy, I guess I am some thousand miles from there
08:08:12 <phroggy> it's a 45 minute <A HREF="http://www.trimet.org/">bus ride</A> for me.
08:08:54 <crysflame> trimet!
08:09:03 <phroggy> TriMet kicks ass.
08:10:47 <BilldaCat> night all
08:14:30 <phroggy> OBJECTIVE: 1.8.1 TYPE: mc
08:14:30 <dc_oscon> Label OBJECTIVE not found.
08:14:31 <phroggy> What is the 'man' command used for?
08:14:46 <phroggy> 2. it is the replacement for the 'boy' command
08:14:47 <phroggy> rofl
08:14:52 <phroggy>http://www.lpi.org/en/tasks_101.html
08:14:52 <dc_oscon> D: http://www.lpi.org/en/tasks_101.html from phroggy
08:14:57 <crysflame> haha
08:23:19 <phroggy> ooh, Stonehenge Consulting party tomorrow night, those are Perl guys, right?
08:23:51 <crysflame> yes
08:23:54 <crysflame> stonehenge is randal schwartz
08:24:00 <phroggy> kick ass.
08:30:33 <UdontKnow> UdontKnow is now known as UdontKnow|afk
08:44:27 <Diablo-D3> randal schwartz... that name sounds familiar
08:44:43 <phroggy> co-author of Learning Perl
08:45:05 <phroggy> got arrested for hacking Intel's servers and reporting a security hole to them, while he was working for them.
08:45:35 <Diablo-D3> Guess which one I remember him for?
08:45:43 <phroggy> hehe
08:46:06 <Diablo-D3> Though..
08:46:14 <Diablo-D3> I wonder how you get arrested for helping your company and doing it the right way
08:46:25 <Diablo-D3> silly intel kiddies
08:58:16 <phroggy>http://www.lightlink.com/spacenka/fors/
08:58:16 <dc_oscon> E: http://www.lightlink.com/spacenka/fors/ from phroggy
09:00:12 <phroggy>http://www.lightlink.com/spacenka/fors/jeffrey/ovs/
09:00:13 <dc_oscon> F: http://www.lightlink.com/spacenka/fors/jeffrey/ovs/ from phroggy
09:08:55 * Diablo-D3 makes an evil suggestion.
09:09:05 <crysflame> ?
11:36:07 <mattwest> y0
11:39:42 <mattwest> what, nobody is awake?
11:39:44 <mattwest> damn.
11:40:53 <Diablo-D3> no one is ever awake
11:41:31 <blech>http://ponie.org/ponie/ponie-faq.html
11:41:32 <dc_oscon> G: http://ponie.org/ponie/ponie-faq.html from blech
11:41:48 <blech> G:|Ponie FAQ
11:41:49 <dc_oscon> Titled item G.
11:42:02 <blech> G: For the Perl/Parrot folk
11:42:03 <dc_oscon> Added comment G1.
11:44:42 <coderman> indeed
11:45:36 <mattwest> you in portland?
11:45:44 <mattwest> bars open in 1:15 right?
11:46:47 * Diablo-D3 wishes he was in portland
11:46:56 <mattwest> no you dont
11:47:04 <mattwest> there is nothing going on
11:47:07 <mattwest> there's no mezzanine
11:48:00 * coderman is in portland
11:48:08 <mattwest> where?
11:48:12 <mattwest> we're over at collords
11:48:19 <coderman> tigard.
11:48:19 <mattwest> bring beer
11:48:20 <Diablo-D3> mattwest: its better than the assend of maine
11:48:21 <coderman> ah, cool.
11:48:29 <Diablo-D3> collords? as in collord collord?
11:48:33 <coderman> lol - i cant make it to oscon. so im lurking in channel
11:48:34 <mattwest> yeah
11:48:46 <moshez> anyone here went to the Guido state of Python talk?
11:48:48 <mattwest> why can't tyo umake it?
11:49:11 <Diablo-D3> tell collord that he idles too much on irc ;)
11:49:22 <mattwest> he's not here
11:49:33 <mattwest> he left us with a vacant vegan stocked kitchen
11:49:33 <Diablo-D3> damn
11:49:45 <mattwest> someone bring some beer and steaks
11:50:19 <mattwest> and a box with a working gcc
11:51:08 <coderman> im working :-(
11:51:19 <mattwest> ditch work. bring beer
11:51:21 <mattwest> fuck.
11:51:36 <coderman> i wish
11:51:46 <coderman> sucking down a case of drop top would rule
11:51:51 <mattwest> get into town, there's no mezzanine, there's like 2 people in the lobby
11:52:09 <mattwest> there are 1500 people at the con, and there are no hangout areas
11:52:17 <coderman> weiiird
11:52:40 <coderman> everyone milling around the hallways when it gets busy?
11:52:48 <mattwest> not sure
11:52:54 <mattwest> got in at 3am
11:53:00 <mattwest> but it should be hoppin
11:53:04 <mattwest> dammit
11:53:04 <coderman> ah, heh
11:53:15 <mattwest> lazy fucks
11:56:13 <Diablo-D3> Im surprised everyone isnt on here
12:39:42 <lilo> mattwest: my impression is that most everybody got in yesterday, some of them travelled a fair distance
12:40:15 * lilo figures they'll be a bit more awake tonight
13:28:14 <maniac_> hello from chicago!
13:29:28 <coderman> greetings
13:29:41 <maniac_> so whats th scoupe at OSCON?
13:32:44 <coderman> im not there, actually :-)
13:33:01 <maniac_> aaah, one of the slashdotters that read the article?
13:35:45 <coderman> lol, im not quite that bad.
13:36:40 <coderman> im in portland, just cant make it.
13:38:15 <Diablo-D3> heh
13:38:19 <Diablo-D3> no ones actually there
13:38:24 <Diablo-D3> infact, no one in this channel is there
13:38:40 <maniac_> lol
13:39:05 <maniac_> Diablo-D3: oddly ironic, actually
13:49:04 <coderman> this is the reason no one is here! -- http://www.internetisshit.org/
13:49:10 <coderman> or maybe just coincidence ... .
13:49:21 <maniac_> lol
13:49:29 <autrijus> morning.
13:52:34 <maniac_> mornin
13:56:08 * Diablo-D3 goes poof
14:12:38 <maniac_> dead in here
14:16:30 * maniac_ fades to nothing
14:27:24 <lilo> morning all
14:27:52 <lilo> slashdot article?
14:27:52 <evlist> morning
14:27:55 <lilo> that doesn't sound like good news ;)
14:27:58 <lilo> hey evlist
14:29:27 <lilo> ah, Ritchie published some papers
14:29:29 <lilo> excellent
14:31:05 <lilo> the court order is beautiful
14:31:07 <lilo> this might help
14:33:56 <collord> edd: still in chicago?
14:34:44 <edd> collord: heh, no, i made it to portland late last night.
14:35:59 <evlist> morning edd
14:36:06 <edd> evlist: hi
14:36:11 * edd coming to find breakfast soon
14:38:23 <lilo> omigod, is it possible that some large percentage of the overlap with Linux is in *header* files? ;)
14:38:34 <lilo> oh, my, if so, SCO certainly have bitten off more than they can chew 8)
14:38:48 * lilo shakes his head, finding this unlikely
14:42:13 <lilo> oh my, they're even seeking relief in Utah courts, interesting parallel
14:45:13 <lilo> "In their official and
14:45:14 <lilo> individual capacities, the Regents are apparently liable in so far
14:45:14 <lilo> as they authorized, knew of, or reasonably should have known of
14:45:17 <lilo> Net2's release."
14:46:00 <lilo> that's interesting in that, similarly, SCO/Caldera should have known they were putting up the Linux kernel source for free download under the terms of the GPL, for 2 months or so 8)
14:46:32 <lilo> should have audited the code
14:46:53 <Improv_Away> Improv_Away is now known as Improv
14:47:01 <lilo> well, apparently they *had* audited the code and believed there were violations
14:47:16 <lilo> at the beginning of that period, and they left it up
14:47:26 <lilo> fascinating
14:49:08 <Improv> wow, this GLTerminal program is kinda cute
14:49:35 <Improv> Either I found a machine with more cool stuff than most, or Apple installed a lot of good stuff last night onto all lab boxen
14:54:42 <lilo> oh my
14:54:54 <lilo> there may not be a valid copyright for the underlying material, which is interesting
14:55:43 <lilo> hmmm, headers, underlying material, couple of interesting things to look for further down the line
14:56:13 <lilo> that stuff may well protect FreeBSD
15:01:27 <lilo> hey dajobe
15:02:01 <dajobe> hi
15:05:12 <lilo> hey Chris61vw, tuxipuxi
15:05:17 <tuxipuxi> hey
15:05:17 <Chris61vw> howdy sir
15:05:23 <lilo> hi b1rk0ff
15:05:29 <b1rk0ff> hi there
15:05:52 <lilo> hey Jaykul
15:05:52 * Improv is back
15:05:58 <lilo> re Improv
15:06:45 <Jaykul> Hi
15:06:51 * Jaykul looks around
15:07:11 <Jaykul> Had to come find out what all the wallops are about ;-)
15:07:16 <ada> :)
15:07:20 <ada> hi *
15:07:22 <dajobe> hmm?
15:07:34 <lilo> hallo ada
15:07:40 <ada> hi lilo
15:07:54 <lilo> hi dmalloc
15:08:02 <lilo> I figured the OSCON channel might be of general interest
15:08:11 <lilo> good morning charlieS
15:08:17 <charlieS> morning
15:08:27 <lilo> hmm, it's afternoon, nevermind 8)
15:08:38 * lilo tends to inhabit local timezones when he is tirde
15:08:44 <charlieS> its 8am :)
15:08:50 <lilo> hey dc|lunch
15:09:05 <dc|lunch> hey
15:09:08 <dc|lunch> dc|lunch is now known as dreamcatcher
15:09:13 <dmalloc> hello
15:09:20 <lilo> exec bash -c "date |sed -e 's/ UTC / fST /' &>/dev/null"
15:09:23 <lilo> oops
15:09:35 <dreamcatcher> heheh
15:09:37 <charlieS> heh, that was no accident.
15:09:40 <lilo> what *is* is going on there
15:09:48 <lilo> 1057763367 /bin/stty: standard input: Invalid argument
15:09:52 * lilo hmms
15:10:27 <dajobe> the conf sessions don't start till 08:45 PST today
15:10:31 <lilo> /bin/stty: standard input: Invalid argument
15:10:31 <lilo> Wed Jul 9 15:10:30 fST 2003
15:10:34 <lilo> hmmm, grump
15:10:37 <lilo> ah dajobe
15:11:23 <lilo> so that would be in about 33 minutes
15:11:44 <dajobe> yes - the Tim O'Reilly keynote and (I forget)
15:12:02 <dajobe> tech sessions start at 10:45
15:12:10 <lilo> well, tell Tim we said hi 8)
15:12:27 <lilo> re-danbri
15:12:32 <danbri> heya
15:12:46 * danbri has oscon envy, watching from a distance...
15:12:52 <lilo> danbri: me too
15:13:10 <lilo> morning PaulSm, geeknews
15:13:27 <lilo> hallo KateS
15:13:30 <dajobe> hi KateS
15:13:36 <lilo> we seem to be developing something of a gallery 8)
15:13:42 <KateS> Hi!
15:14:00 <lilo> if anybody can provide a bit of transcription from the keynote, that'd be great
15:17:58 <DanielSmith> will anyone be using hydra during keynotes?
15:19:05 <lilo> hey GeorgC, floobart, re-Jaykul
15:19:23 <GeorgeC> lilo: hey 8-)
15:19:23 <floobart> greetz again lilo
15:19:37 <floobart> floobart is now known as kennyt
15:23:30 <lilo> main coverage page over at O'Reilly is http://www.oreillynet.com/oscon2003/
15:23:31 <kennyt> when starteth the session?
15:23:42 <lilo> it points to press coverage, blogs and so on
15:23:44 <dajobe> in now+20
15:23:45 <lilo> hey qmacro
15:23:48 <kennyt> and i'm too lazy to check, so don't suggest that i do :P
15:23:48 <qmacro> hey there
15:23:57 <lilo> kennyt: chill 8)
15:24:00 <kennyt> dajobe: coo :)
15:24:35 * kennyt must find out what this is all about =)
15:24:42 <GeorgeC> rofl, that Randal case thing looks a bit daft
15:24:49 <lilo> hey dybbuk
15:24:52 <dybbuk> Howdy.
15:24:57 <GeorgeC> I mean how can they convict someone they have like "between ** and **"
15:25:10 <dybbuk> So is this channel more chic than the one on irc.develooper.org?
15:25:11 <GeorgeC> a year in one case
15:25:23 <lilo> dybbuk: hard to say 8)
15:25:33 <dybbuk> It is more exciting so far.
15:25:49 <dybbuk> I feel cooler.
15:25:50 <GeorgeC> if they cant give an even moderately estimate on when he commited a crime, how do they have any evidence that could be taken seriously
15:25:51 <dybbuk> It must be.
15:25:58 <lilo> dybbuk: if you feel cool, you're cool :)
15:26:03 * lilo is easy
15:26:32 <GeorgeC> what you talking about? this is gangsta's corner, your only cool if we say you are.
15:26:40 <GeorgeC> hehe ;)
15:26:42 * kennyt goes to #flamewar to discuss problems in judicial systems
15:26:44 <lilo> hehe GeorgeC
15:27:20 <GeorgeC> So what exactly is the agenda for this conference?
15:27:32 * kennyt wonders with GeorgeC
15:27:37 <Improv> World domination, fast.
15:27:40 <dybbuk> There is going to be a keysigning BOF tonight at 8:00 if anybody is interested.
15:27:56 <GeorgeC> With Perl, that shouldnt take too long, why the hell does it need a conference?
15:28:09 * lilo thwaps GeorgeC 8)
15:28:15 <Improv> GeorgeC: Everybody wants to rule the world.
15:28:21 <dybbuk> GeorgeC: They need to come up with some good propaganda, see.
15:28:33 <lilo> hey mdubinko
15:28:56 <GeorgeC> Agenda: 1. Take over world. 2. Cofee Break.
15:28:59 <Jaykul> Jaykul is now known as Jaykul[BRB]
15:28:59 * Jaykul[BRB] is away: Isn't is a bit unnerving that doctors call what they do a 'practice'?
15:29:02 <kennyt> wow. this authentication handler is horrible.
15:29:18 <kennyt> Jaykul[BRB]: no. they're putting their skills into *practical* use :)
15:29:34 <Improv> Jaykul: Well, having doctors being 'finished with you' is scary too
15:30:22 <lilo> we'll be around all day, folks, drop in whenever you need a little virtual conversation, or to compare notes :)
15:31:24 <lilo> so, $program_start - 15 minutes or so
15:31:41 <mdubinko> morning
15:31:46 <GeorgeC> would'nt it be:
15:31:53 <lilo> 15m maybe?
15:32:02 <GeorgeC> $program_start = $time + 15;
15:33:01 <lilo> probably time or time() rather than $time
15:33:10 <kennyt> now() ?
15:33:19 * lilo is thinking perl
15:33:29 * kennyt is thinking sql ;)
15:33:31 <GeorgeC> lilo: but you could assign the time to the $time var
15:33:45 * GeorgeC is thinking sexeh ladehs
15:33:46 <GeorgeC> ;)
15:33:55 <lilo> hmmm
15:33:58 * kennyt thwaps GeorgeC with a foobat
15:34:22 * GeorgeC scans dictonary for "thwaps" and "foobat"
15:35:12 <GeorgeC> My new bike frame and forks came today. 8-D
15:35:43 <GeorgeC> Marzocchi Bomber MX Comp '03 and a Coyote HT-5
15:35:57 <GeorgeC> Anyone other geeks in here into mountain biking ?
15:36:24 * qmacro & # stuff
15:37:26 <kennyt> if ($result['user_perms'] & $this->_perms[$permission]) { return true; } return false;
15:38:26 <GeorgeC> if($kennyt != '') { die(kennyt); }
15:38:27 <GeorgeC> ;)
15:38:38 <GeorgeC> hehe
15:38:45 <kennyt> GeorgeC: yay! i get to be in a die message! =)
15:38:58 * GeorgeC awards kennyt a medal
15:39:07 <GeorgeC> Congrat's sir
15:39:14 * kennyt opens the medal and extracts the chocolate
15:39:29 <Improv> Improv is now known as Improv_Away
15:39:35 * GeorgeC steals box of chocolates and does a runner
15:40:13 * kennyt forgot to tell GeorgeC what was in that chocolate... ;)
15:40:25 <GeorgeC> woops ;)
15:40:33 <GeorgeC> good job i gave them to your mum :0
15:40:49 <GeorgeC> so what will they be discussing? i mean, who can flem the furthest or what>
15:44:25 * GeorgeC steals box of chocolates and does a runner
15:44:26 * kennyt forgot to tell GeorgeC what was in that chocolate... ;)
15:44:28 * kennyt is timing out
15:44:30 <ken_> <kennyt> lilo: what's the deal with +P channels and topic retention? you always have at least one server running, and that one keeps the topic, mode, etc while the other is down?
15:44:33 <ken_> <kennyt> lilo: or is there some way to store channels?
15:44:35 <ken_> :-)
15:45:05 <ken_> ohhhhh
15:45:06 <GeorgeC> is there an echo in here or something?
15:45:08 <ken_> did a server die?
15:45:38 <GeorgeC> and it did
15:45:40 <GeorgeC> im on orwell
15:45:45 <GeorgeC> i didnt die
15:46:12 <edd>http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2003/view/e_sess/4389
15:46:13 <dc_oscon> H: http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2003/view/e_sess/4389 from edd
15:46:25 <edd> H:|Tim O'Reilly OSCON opening keynote
15:46:25 <dc_oscon> Titled item H.
15:46:41 <edd> H:|Tim O'Reilly OSCON opening keynote, "The Open Source Paradigm Shift"
15:46:41 <dc_oscon> Titled item H.
15:47:11 <edd> tim o'r takes the stage
15:47:20 <dmwaters> {global notice} Good afternoon everyone, apparrently one of our main rotation servers has crashed, and the problem is being looked at. Any further messages will be given in wallops.
15:48:44 <edd> hey matt, welcome
15:48:52 * mattb waves from london
15:48:52 <ken_> ken_ is now known as kennyt
15:48:56 <kennyt> woo woo woo
15:49:04 <rjbs> mattb: you'll never make it in time to see Tim.
15:49:08 <mattb> heh, s'ok
15:49:18 <mattb> i saw him at ukuug a few weeks back, same talk :)
15:51:22 <edd> mdubinko: hi
15:53:13 <SteveMallett> hi danese
15:53:20 <edd> talking about pc paradisdm shift; effect of commoditsation onthe computing industry
15:53:26 <danese> Howdy
15:53:50 <DrBacchus> MORBUS
15:54:00 <Morbus> hey DrB.
15:54:17 <coderman> there goes the neighborhood!
15:54:18 <coderman> ;-)
15:54:22 <Morbus> coderman! <G>
15:58:45 <edd> tim's talk heading towards web services
16:01:29 <danese> He gave a similar (but slightly different) talk at eTech this year. What do you guys think about his assertion that the "pure" open model requires proprietary components to be commercially viable?
16:02:36 <oulipo> danese: sun bought him off?
16:02:39 <oulipo> :)
16:04:37 <SteveMallett> danese: I'm not sure he said "requires" did he?
16:04:39 <danese> No, really not! I'm asking because I've heard lots of criticsm of businesses (like CollabNet for instance) which appear to me to be trying to do the right thing and I'm trying to understand why folks react so strongly to this
16:05:21 <danese> linuxninja: you're right, he didn't say "requires"...My mistake
16:05:31 <oulipo> danese: actually, I agree substantially with the idea, and was obviously only kidding
16:05:34 <danese> Sorry Steve, that was you
16:05:40 <VxD> well yay, the party is in here
16:05:42 <danese> Yeah, no worries
16:06:18 <oulipo> but the logic of adding proprietary elements is in keeping with the larger issue of open architectture in which vendors produce unique/boutique apps predicated on standard source
16:06:48 <oulipo> thus allowing for, say, cosmetic, and even structural innovation while allowing for interoperability and full compatibility
16:06:49 <SteveMallett> danese: it is odd that people freak out that someone is trying to make a buck somewhere accompanying an os software product.
16:07:02 <danese> Okay, so the "release cycle" issue is major for corporations...I should write about that.
16:07:17 <oulipo> SteveM: in art, it would be the same horror of the market
16:07:49 <SteveMallett> danese: I think if companies included the users in the revenue stream products somehow the reaction wouldn'g be so dramatic.
16:08:07 <mlangham> This is the same talk he gave at reboot in Denmark. I saw the video.
16:08:14 <danese> We see it all the time...on OpenOffice.org for instance. Some folks act as if they don't want Sun to be able to benefit from their work, which is interesting in light of the substantial gift we gave them in opening the code in the first place...
16:08:31 <rooneg> SteveMallett: what do you mean by that? should they be giving back some of their profits? how?
16:08:40 <SteveMallett> rooneg: no....
16:08:51 <danese> Yeah, he used parts of this at JavaOne also. That's sort of smart if you give as many talks as he does
16:09:25 <SteveMallett> rooneg: often some of the proprietary revenue devices are handled soooo differently than the os side. They close the poeple out of participating in the product.
16:10:08 <danese> Not giving back profits, more like watering the commons. So for instance if they have worked on a dictionary that could be of use to many but they insist on licensing it in such a way that we *can't* include it in the core distro...what is up with that? They aren't charging for it, they just don't want it to show up in StarOffice so we "benefit".
16:10:28 <SteveMallett> SteveMallett: rooneg if they still invite people to particpate, hack, or form communitis around those products, like movabletype for instance, those efforts would likely be more successful.
16:10:35 <SteveMallett> whoop
16:11:29 <rooneg> but isn't that what they're doing? the openoffice.org project is exactly that. they're giving out a gigantic amount of code, infrastructure, and people working on it already.
16:12:03 <rooneg> with collab.net there are a number of projects that they're funding that are either part of their proprietary offering, or will be in the future.
16:12:04 <SteveMallett> rooneg: I'm not addressing openoffice per se.
16:12:29 <rooneg> i think these kind of companies should be held up as the example of 'the right way to do it'
16:12:29 <danese> But Collab still leaves the open thread out there...which SourceForge doesn't do
16:12:41 <danese> rooneg: who is "They"
16:13:04 <rooneg> sun, with their openoffice stuff, collab.net in general... that's all that come to mind at the moment.
16:14:36 <oulipo> hm. I think it should go farther--and does, in the cae of OO0--that is, say that MS were to release code to the world for development, under, say, APSL 1.2
16:14:55 <edd> talking about ASP.NET as if it's something I should know about
16:14:55 <rooneg> (apple would be another good example, IMHO)
16:14:56 <oulipo> this would delight many people and offend an equal many
16:15:01 <danese> Yes we (Sun and Collab) are gifting code and work, but there are many community members who don't want to behave in kind
16:15:06 <oulipo> people would complain that it is open but not standardized
16:15:22 <oulipo> and they'd be right, probably, unless things change
16:15:37 <rooneg> danese: that's part of the nature of open source. nobody is forced to contribute if they don't want to.
16:17:14 <danese> rooneg: Yes, I'm okay with that...I just want to understand what we can do to make more people believe that its a good thing to create one codebase that can, for instance, be defended in the event of legal issues
16:18:04 <rooneg> i think the thing to concentrate on is that if you have this project, and you create a community around it, you will get more out of it than you put in. collab.net has done this with subversion.
16:19:06 * edd notes more mentions of Microsoft than of Linux in Tim's speech
16:19:14 <edd> I wonder if that's basically his point :>
16:19:28 <DrBacchus> edd: The theme of the conference
16:19:39 <edd> DrBacchus: Quite.
16:20:02 <danese> He's always said that Microsoft will "get" this eventually
16:24:06 <lilo> danese: it seems clear that one way to defend open source legally is to create a business and individual constituency for its use
16:24:42 <Jaykul[BRB]> Jaykul[BRB] is now known as Jaykul
16:24:42 * Jaykul is back (gone 00:55:43)
16:25:10 <spaceman> spaceman is now known as SteveMallett
16:25:32 <lilo> danese: because one of the avenues for legal denial is via legislation and legal challenge, and the law is probably not quite in the shape it needs to be
16:26:22 <ircleuser> ircleuser is now known as MacRat
16:26:26 * lilo sees successful business advocacy of free software and open source to be pretty important in that way
16:26:47 <danese> True, but US Copyright Law requires that you assemble a majority share of copyright holders if you enter into defense based on copyright...and for many projects (such as Mozilla) that just isn't going to be practical because the copyrights are not "together"
16:27:21 <lilo> danese: it may be ambitious, but maybe copyright law needs to end up being tweaked a bit
16:27:40 <danese> Well, if Larry couldn't make that point...
16:28:44 <Jaykul> You know ... the issue of copyright ownership on a project like Mozilla is an interesting question.
16:28:46 <lilo> danese: there are key applications whose copyrights may never be collected in that way
16:28:53 <lilo> hey hanna
16:28:57 <hanna> lilo, greets.
16:29:12 <hanna> lilo are you at oscon? or just helping out with irc?
16:29:12 <lilo> danese: which to me says that it's important to grow that constituency, particularly in the business community
16:29:22 <Jaykul> I work on a much smaller project, where we've had a bit of developer churn in the last year or two ...
16:29:26 <lilo> hanna: just helping out....conventions aren't in the, uh, lack of budget this year :)
16:29:35 <Jaykul> and one of the big questions is, who owns the copyrights now.
16:29:50 <lilo> Jaykul: it *is* an important question to consider, early and often
16:29:54 <edd> hmm, urging us to "be there" and compete with the corporates. why _should_ open source get there before the businesses?
16:30:12 <Jaykul> That is: can the "active" dev team make decisions to change, for instance, from a GPL to a BSD license or vice-versa
16:30:47 <lilo> edd: because open source and free software are useful models, and they ought to grow....and one way to grow is to break trail
16:30:51 <danese> Or from ASL v1 to ASL v2 or GPL v2.2 to GPL v3?
16:30:59 * Jaykul nods
16:31:11 <lilo> danese: yes
16:31:24 <lilo> danese: in some ways, copyright snarl, when well-documented, can be useful
16:31:29 <edd> lilo: but nobody does open source because of growing open source. they do it to get the software they want
16:31:40 <Jaykul> My though has been, recently ... that it might actually be worth making a point in a code license that co-operating developers need to cede copyright to an "entity"
16:32:00 <Jaykul> eg: the "development team" inc.
16:32:01 <lilo> edd: it's useful to grow open source, so why not encourage people to do things for the reasons they do them, to have that effect? :)
16:32:42 <lilo> Jaykul: I'm not sure what meaning that has when it's not a legal entity
16:33:01 <danese> Well, CollabNet and Sun do it to "grow" opensource
16:33:02 <ircleuser> Jaykul: Like the music industry?
16:33:06 <Jaykul> edd: sure ... some people do Open Source solely for tthe reason of growing open source. if they didn't Open Source couldn't have gotten started, and there wouldn't _BE_ a GNU foundation.
16:33:25 <SteveMallett> is sam ruby here yet?
16:33:29 <lilo> edd: I think there is no single reason why people do open source, or free software
16:33:37 <Jaykul> lilo: yeah, I know. We actually considered incorporating as a non-profit for that very reason -.-
16:33:40 <lilo> edd: at least that's what I've seen for the last 10 years
16:33:51 <danese> Probably not..Sam was going to SuperNova in DC Tuesday
16:33:51 <rooneg> danese: i'm not sure that's entirely accurate. they do it because they think it makes financial sense, because the results of the project will be more valuable to them if the community contributes.
16:33:56 <lilo> Jaykul: I may be able to give you some useful advice there
16:33:58 <edd> ok. you're right there.
16:34:21 <danese> jamie: not entirely accurate (believe me)
16:34:26 <edd> i still don't see why we should be harangued for not being up there aping every single little thing OS X does :)
16:34:36 <danese> Sorry, meant rooneg
16:34:43 <lilo> I like the FSF people a lot, because they're steadfast, and a lot of the reason for that is why they do what they do
16:35:02 <lilo> but there are a lot of different motivations in the communities we're in, and that variety keeps the process robust
16:35:14 <DrBacchus> steadfast, inflexible, it's all in your perspective.
16:35:15 <lilo> edd: well, a little haranguing may be a good thing 8)
16:35:17 <dana> but they always act like such nuts when they rant on in public
16:35:21 <danese> lilo: violent personal agreement with what you say about FSF
16:35:29 <autrijus> variety good. stagnation bad.
16:36:00 <lilo> danese: well, the thing about the FSF is, they certainly generate strong reactions 8)
16:36:07 <lilo> danese: I'm not saying that's good or bad, just noting it 8)
16:36:16 <Jaykul> lol
16:36:29 <DrBacchus> dana: Doesn't everybody?
16:36:40 <rooneg> danese: well, if the motivation is really "we like open source software", then i hope it manages to work out that the result is valuable enough to the companies in question, since if it doesn't, it isn't much of a sustainable pattern to continue with.
16:37:05 <danese> Which gets me back to my original rant...
16:37:22 <lilo> I'm not 100% sure that I want to talk about RMS in an open source-oriented group, he's....unusual....and interesting
16:37:35 <lilo> but I've found the FSF staff to be very down-to-earth and practical
16:37:46 <edd>http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2003/view/e_spkr/1529
16:37:46 <dc_oscon> I: http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2003/view/e_spkr/1529 from edd
16:37:57 <lilo> again, not necessarily on the same page as OSS people in general
16:37:59 <edd> I:|Paul Buck keynote on Eclipse
16:37:59 <dc_oscon> Titled item I.
16:38:14 <danese> For clarity, I was violently agreeing (personally) with lilo's admiration for their steadfastness
16:38:27 <lilo> danese: oh 8) I missed it 8)
16:38:43 <lilo> danese: and here I am backfilling heavily with diplomacy 8) oh well, I guess diplomacy is an ultimate good :)
16:38:53 <edd> I:[abstract|http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2003/view/e_sess/4301]
16:38:53 <dc_oscon> Added comment I1.
16:38:59 <lilo> or at least a worthwhile thing for its own sake 8)
16:40:29 <lilo> but somebody does have to be in there for the long haul, and I think the FSF's credentials there are pretty strong
16:41:01 <danese> Agree
16:41:22 <danese> As Larry Lessig says about EFF, have you donated money to the FSF lately?
16:41:40 <edd> I:[Eclipse|http://eclipse.org/] home page.
16:41:40 <dc_oscon> Added comment I2.
16:41:43 <rooneg> personally, i think the apache software foundation has a better shot at being the 'there for the long haul' person, but that's just me.
16:41:49 * lilo checks to see if his main affero profile (http://www.affero.net/) still has FSF
16:42:00 <lilo> rooneg: that's where differential motivations are a good thing
16:42:09 <lilo> rooneg: they're there for the long haul, but in a different way
16:42:46 <ged> speaker =~ s/uh//
16:42:59 <jamie> I don't suppose anyone here at the hotel has a car with jumper cables? I stupidly drained my battery last night.
16:43:04 <edd> I:Eclipse is a neat IDE, which I really quite like. There's a talk this week about using PHP with eclipse.
16:43:04 <dc_oscon> Added comment I3.
16:45:15 <DrBacchus> I can't say I really care for product-pitch talks.
16:45:52 * lilo nods
16:47:38 <jamie> ooh, pretty candy graphics that I can't read
16:47:48 <SteveMallett> ged: 8^)
16:48:25 <SteveMallett> I held a BoF Monday night & all I said was ahh ahhh, ummm
16:48:29 * edd senses this is a repurposed talk from something aimed at more corporate audience
16:48:35 <lilo> SteveMallett: it's a popular word 8)
16:48:45 <danese> Okay, but is it an Open Source project (to our last conversation)
16:48:53 <lilo> well, that's worthwhile
16:48:53 <mattb> when he gave the talk in london, he said he'd presented it at microsoft UK that morning
16:49:00 <lilo> ahhhh mattb
16:49:13 <edd> mattb: this is the Eclipse talk, not Tim's
16:49:21 * mattb loses track
16:49:23 <lilo> hmmm
16:49:25 <mattb> ignore me
16:50:10 <SteveMallett> I love plugins
16:50:29 * YT is away: class
16:50:30 <DrBacchus> buzzwords++
16:50:50 <ircleuser> SteveMallett: do plugins love you back???
16:50:54 <oulipo> danese, how does eclipse work with netbeans?
16:51:01 <SteveMallett> ircleuser: sadly, no.
16:51:02 <ircleuser> ircleuser is now known as MacRat
16:51:06 <rooneg> we've started to see people building eclipse plugins for subversion recently... now we just need to get them to compile them for something other than windows so i can try them out ;-)
16:51:35 <ged> rooneg: They're not written in Java?
16:51:47 <danese> oulipo: they are separate projects trying to do the same thing...but Eclipse was started second and of course they never came to NetBeans to ask if they could join.
16:51:48 <Jaykul> this is a good question: <oulipo> danese, how does eclipse work with netbeans?
16:51:50 <rooneg> the java bindings for svn require native code (JNI)
16:51:52 <Jaykul> Does it work at all?
16:52:05 <Jaykul> I mean, can you 'convert' a netbeans project?
16:52:09 <danese> Eclipse has a few features that folks want NetBeans to have
16:52:17 <Jaykul> or co-operate with a team that is using netbeans?
16:52:41 <edd> I:Java 1.3 is the baseline for running Eclipse. This makes me happy as it means I can run it on PPC Linux
16:52:41 <dc_oscon> Added comment I4.
16:53:03 <danese> Not sure. Eclipse supports SWT which is a non-standard Java interface (not JCP'd and alternate to the standard)
16:53:20 <evlist> edd: ibm's java 1.4 works fine on linux PPC (with JIT disabled)
16:53:44 <edd> evlist: i just want to apt-get install...
16:53:59 <evlist> of course ;-)
16:57:14 <edd> I:[Eclipse Perl Integration|http://e-p-i-c.sourceforge.net/]
16:57:14 <dc_oscon> Added comment I5.
16:57:37 <danese> So, back to my question. From my perspective, Eclipse is a "corporate" project. All the voices on the website are IBM or it's affiliates. The license is OSI approved, which is of course a really good thing...but they don't seem to be building community
16:57:55 <lilo> danese: sometimes they have trouble with the community thing
16:58:22 <MacRat> Daanese: but they seem to be building a user base right? Maybe that is all they want.
16:58:23 <edd> I:[subversion plugin for eclipse|http://sourceforge.net/projects/subclipse/]
16:58:23 <dc_oscon> Added comment I6.
16:58:26 <lilo> danese: otoh, as you say, the code is out there, which is good....and given time, they'll probably begin to accrete a community
16:59:09 <danese> Well, I wonder why they don't get criticized for it. If Sun were doing that on OpenOffice.org we'd get reams of criticism about it.
16:59:10 <edd> I:[beginning of logged chat re Eclipse talk|http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/oscon/2003-07-09.html#T16-37-59]
16:59:10 <dc_oscon> Added comment I7.
17:02:00 <Jaykul> why are OSS people so obssessed with Community?
17:02:18 <lilo> Jaykul: some are, and then some are obsessed with *not* being obsessed 8)
17:02:35 <MacRat> Jaykul: Because the community drives the OSS project developement.
17:02:37 <danese> Well, are they obsessed? Eclipse seems to suggest not (and MySQL as well)
17:02:38 <ged> Because people are the resource that's the most scarce.
17:02:41 <lilo> Jaykul: a good chunk of what's going on with large OSS projects is an interaction of communities
17:02:42 <DrBacchus> Jaykul: Because that's mostly what OSS is about.
17:02:47 <Jaykul> as far as I can tell, the only reason you need community, is to maintain developer interest. If it's a corporate project, the dev's are being PAID, which is enough to maintain a high-level of interest ;-)
17:03:09 <lilo> Jaykul: if you look at each project as isolated and permanent, that's true
17:03:27 <lilo> Jaykul: but there is not an operating system extant today that has to be around in 20 years
17:03:33 <lilo> Jaykul: or an application
17:03:36 <danese> Well but then you have Mozilla for instance, which has changed owners and the new ones may or may not continue to pay, no?
17:03:42 <DrBacchus> Software is merely a means to foster community.
17:03:49 <lilo> Jaykul: in the long run, how people interact is very important, because you want them to keep interacting and keep doing new work
17:03:53 <Jaykul> Well, if you don't look at them as isolated, then you don't need to worry about any given project not trying to develop it's own community :-p
17:03:56 <MacRat> Jaykul: If an OSS project has corporate backing, that doesn't mean all dev is corporate.
17:04:15 <danese> lilo: Can you say that given that Unix is 30 years old?
17:04:23 <DrBacchus> The software itself is unimportant. I'm in it for the community, most of the time.
17:04:39 * Jaykul nods at DrBacchus. ditto.
17:04:47 <lilo> danese: *doesn't have to*....Unix has been through the mill, and its evolution may not be the evolution of its successors
17:04:52 <DrBacchus> That and the free drinks. ;-)
17:04:58 <lilo> danese: I'm just saying, change will come, and there will be a lot of it
17:05:05 <danese> As discussed last night, I guess I'm ultimately in it for the hair
17:05:09 <lilo> danese: so the community is important
17:05:11 <lilo> danese: ah :)
17:05:33 <danese> Hey, is anybody using Hydra in here? I can't get a login
17:05:42 <lilo> these days I tend to regard open source and free software as a whole lot of communities
17:05:58 <lilo> there are commonalities of interest and there are people pulling things together, and then there is a lot of sprawl
17:06:10 <lilo> hi miguel
17:06:10 <miguel3> Edd?
17:06:12 <miguel3> hey
17:06:19 <miguel3> What is your email address? You sure keep it secret
17:06:24 <lilo> hehe
17:06:26 <danese> Well, IMHO the license incompatibility problem creates much of the sprawl
17:06:40 <lilo> danese: it does, and the, uh, "differential advocacy"
17:06:41 <edd> miguel3: heh, google knows it! edd@usefulinc.com
17:06:48 <lilo> danese: zero-sum advocacy, I should say
17:07:08 <lilo> danese: not everybody advocates their project that way, but those who do tend to pull things apart some
17:07:16 <danese> lilo:diplomatic of you
17:07:22 * lilo grins
17:09:41 <danese> and discretion the better part of valor
17:10:04 <lilo> well, there is a style of "letting it all hang out" that has a following in the communities
17:10:27 <lilo> I don't know....you can always toss in a spare grenade if you really need to, but most of the time it seems to be more useful to wait 8)
17:10:33 <lilo> hey hydo
17:10:55 <ged> danese: I have Hydra running, and can see one doc.
17:10:58 <miguel3> edd: Nat said we should meet ;-)
17:11:15 <miguel3> I saw your nice bluetooth dashboard plugin
17:11:17 <danese> I notice many of its more voluable proponents have recently tired and moved on (and isn't that true historically as well? For instance Jon Stevens, Jamie Zawinsky, Tom Lord)
17:11:53 <lilo> sometimes wisdom is a lot like 'getting tired'
17:12:08 <lilo> and sometimes getting tired of doing unproductive things is the better part of wisdom 8)
17:12:13 <edd> miguel3: sure. i don't have it to demo here unfortunately due to having a ppc laptop
17:12:15 <lilo> hey sch
17:12:19 <sch> hey
17:12:40 <lilo> hey Maniac
17:12:57 <Maniac> helo
17:13:02 <hydo> heya lilo. you the same lilo from #linpeople?
17:13:16 <lilo> hydo: yah
17:13:27 <hydo> lilo: nice! you here at the conference?
17:13:42 <lilo> hydo: unfortunately, not this time around....the nonprofit doesn't precisely have a budget yet 8)
17:15:13 <danese> lilo: and yet, through the magic of IRC...
17:15:32 <lilo> danese: *nod*
17:15:39 <miguel3> danese, everyone moves on
17:15:48 <miguel3> I dont want to be doing software development in 20 years
17:15:49 <miguel3> :-)
17:17:02 <lilo> hey lima
17:17:11 <lima> lima is now known as jd
17:17:13 <Maniac> ic lilo is the offical greeter
17:17:38 <lilo> Maniac: just keeping things a bit livelier 8)
17:18:12 <lilo> eek, that didn't look good 8)
17:19:06 <lilo> I would like to hope I'll be doing similar things in 20 years....just hopefully more of them, and better-funded
17:19:09 * lilo has a list
17:19:32 * Maniac wonders how many people here are @ oscon and how many are living oscon vicariouly through blogs and IRC
17:19:36 <lilo> but I code here and there, as needed, and learn a new language every few years
17:20:13 <lilo> Maniac: hard to say....I know there's some local interest on freenode, from people who haven't been able to attend
17:20:39 <jd> bye
17:20:42 <Jaykul> I'm in the vicarious camp
17:21:03 <Jaykul> The real question is ... why are the people AT oscon even on here ;-)
17:21:19 <Jaykul> Not that we don't appreciate it, since we can't be there ...
17:21:34 <jamie> I'm here because I left my car's lights on, and I'm hoping someone ELSE who is here has jumper cables :)
17:21:40 <lilo> well, I've noticed it seems to be a popular thing at conferences
17:22:06 <lilo> when you're sitting in a hall, you don't necessarily know a lot about the people who are sitting on either side of you
17:22:13 <qmacro> actually, the IRC channel is good for me because the actual physical spaces here at the Marriott (OSCON location) are rather spread out and there's less of a sense of a whole as there was in San Diego
17:22:16 <lilo> it's another way to add to the networking
17:22:28 <lilo> ah qm
17:22:30 <qmacro> it's over 4 floors
17:22:39 <lilo> and about 1,500 people?
17:22:43 <lilo> that's pretty spread out
17:23:30 <qmacro> the hotel in San Diego was somehow more appropriate, vast tracts of carpet to commune in (on?) and you were more likely to bump into people physically
17:23:57 <lilo> I don't know, I think networking via text is a useful adjunct to meeting people physically
17:24:38 <lilo> it adds another dimension, another chance to meet people you might want to then talk to physically
17:25:02 <qmacro> I don't disagree; I'm saying it's even more valuable this year than last
17:25:06 * lilo nods
17:25:24 <lilo> well, glad we could help
17:25:35 <lilo> let's see, it's 10:25 or so....I wonder what is on the schedule atm
17:26:54 <lilo> interesting, people are dropping off everywhere, there has to be some scheduled something
17:28:06 <qmacro> lilo: thanks, yes - appreciated
17:29:02 <qmacro> morning sessions start at 10:45, which is in about 15 mins.
17:30:34 <Jaykul> heh
17:30:39 <Jaykul> there goes another one.
17:30:49 <Jaykul> we need to get these people some wireless connectivity :-p
17:31:34 <jamie> oh, we're definitely bumping into each other physically
17:31:57 <jamie> may be 4 floors, but almost all the talks are on 2 floors
17:34:08 <sch> ?
17:37:22 * kennyt watches lilo fall in love with oscon ;-D
17:37:36 <lilo> well, it's live, and it's been interesting so far
17:37:40 <judah> ugh.. to much bad whiskey last night..
17:37:41 <kennyt> hehe
17:37:48 * lilo wonders if we can't do this for a few more conferences
17:38:04 <lilo> hey all
17:38:06 <kennyt> lilo: support for non-SERVERHIDE setups is back
17:38:39 <lilo> checking the state of play, I wonder if we had a bit of a network outage at OSCON :)
17:38:54 <lilo> gateway is still pinging
17:39:10 <lilo> hi all, welcome
17:39:12 <kennyt> lilo: you better be careful, or they'll think you're a "hacker"
17:39:18 <kennyt> lilo: ping is *eeeveil* now
17:39:19 <vnc> hi there
17:39:24 <lilo> kennyt: but that's *good* if they think I'm a hacker ;)
17:39:29 <kennyt> almost as eeevile as telnet
17:39:31 * lilo is only a mild hacker
17:39:37 <kennyt> lilo: not hacker; "hacker"
17:39:39 <lilo> and not a cracker at all
17:39:42 <vnc> is this chatlog displayed on a BIIIG screen? ;)
17:39:48 <kennyt> "hacker" == cracker ;(
17:39:52 <vnc> i want to be in TV ;)
17:39:53 <lilo> vnc: no, just a lot of little screens :)
17:40:13 <Chris61vw> we would make a boring tv show vnc :-)
17:40:15 <lilo> vnc: but maybe we can make arrangements for a future convention :)
17:40:31 <Jaykul> that would be kind-of funny, and a little dangerous for the 'sponsor'
17:40:37 <lilo> Chris61vw: depends....if you're on, then people will tend to connect more from the various PC stations to make some little comment
17:40:39 <vnc> erm... join #mldonkey - its cool ;)
17:40:47 * lilo thwaps vnc ;)
17:40:54 <Chris61vw> lilo, maybe if we chatted about... well, anything of value :-)
17:41:11 <lilo> Chris61vw: well, there's some good stuff on the logs
17:41:25 <Jaykul> yeah
17:41:39 <lilo> (anyway, welcome everybody....I think the gateway at OSCON2003 seems to be down, hopefully we'll have them back presently)
17:41:47 <Jaykul> good chat about licenses, and eclipse ... and community.
17:41:52 * lilo nods
17:42:00 <Jaykul> all in the last ... say ... 3 hours
17:42:04 * lilo nods
17:42:21 <lilo> it's 10:42 local time in US/Pacific, where OSCON is (Oregon)
17:42:41 <lilo> and the first thing on the program was Tim O'Reilly's keynote, if I'm not mistaken...at 8:45
17:43:20 <lilo> fascinating, let me fix that
17:43:38 <Shimei> it's in oregon? Didn't know that, might be close then. What city?
17:43:53 <lilo> not sure, but check the home page....
17:44:07 <sch> It's in Portland.
17:44:33 <Shimei> that's cool, a 2 hour ride from here
17:46:37 <kennyt> woo, they're back!
17:46:38 * lilo grumps at services
17:46:48 <lilo> there we go
17:46:57 <vnc> nickserv is chatting with me...
17:47:24 <lilo> services is a bit grumpy
17:47:29 <kennyt> lilo: c'mon, /die services.
17:47:36 * lilo thwaps kennyt
17:47:40 <kennyt> or /squit, even
17:47:42 <lilo> well, so it looks like we are getting OSCON back
17:47:46 <Shimei> wow, oscon is quite expensive, 400 for a day pass
17:47:46 <kennyt> you can't /die it :P
17:48:01 * kennyt wonders why he was thwapped :)
17:49:04 <elihu> Shimei, where are you? I'm down in Eugene, OR
17:49:27 <Shimei> I'm in corvallis, OR
17:50:00 * kennyt suggests that elihu and Shimei pretend that they are one person, and get in half-price
17:50:16 <elihu> heh :)
17:50:30 <Shimei> siamese twins? ;)
17:51:36 <elihu> I was up there yesterday for OSCAMP and wandered around oscon wishing my company could pay for me to be there.
17:52:48 * lilo nods
17:53:06 <lilo> I'd love to attend, but PDPC doesn't have a budget for such things yet
17:53:17 <kennyt> heh
17:53:52 <kennyt> lilo: what you need... is to get big sponsors to put their name all over everything... like, redhat.freenode.net
17:53:58 <lilo> hehe
17:54:06 <kennyt> or even microsoft.
17:54:08 <kennyt> :)
17:54:12 <lilo> :b :)
17:54:21 <kennyt> that will be more than enough money to get you by ;)
17:54:30 <lilo> or ximian.freenode.net :)
17:54:36 <kennyt> heh
17:54:48 <lilo> or sun.freenode.net 8)
17:54:56 <kennyt> sco.freenode.net
17:55:01 <elihu> supposedly MS is paying for the lunch today at oscon, so beware. ;)
17:55:03 <lilo> hey, be nice ;)
17:55:08 <lilo> hehe elihu
17:55:10 <kennyt> hehe
17:55:16 <lilo> I would eat Microsoft's lunch
17:55:18 <grishnav> It will contain FUDge.
17:55:22 <lilo> I mean, really, don't we all want to? ;)
17:56:06 * kennyt would like to get *something* good from them...
17:56:12 <lilo> okay, folks, I'm going to do a latency check....I won't be offended if your client is a little grumpy :)
17:56:18 <Jaykul> I'd love to eat Microsoft's Lunch ;-)
17:56:27 * Jaykul chuckles at the double entedre
17:56:33 <lilo> looks good
17:56:35 <kennyt> i'd prefer their lunch(tm) though
17:56:36 <Jaykul> entendre
17:57:07 <kennyt> lilo: how DARE you DoS me?!?!?! I will have you disconnected! ;)
17:57:16 <lilo> hmmmm
17:57:21 * kennyt gets lilo's ip
17:57:33 <lilo> let me check the schedule
17:58:06 <Jaykul> Jaykul is now known as Jaykul[AFK]
17:58:11 <elihu> I notice on the oscg.kwiki.org, some people are doing audio recordings... are those going to be available somewhere?
17:58:23 * Jaykul[AFK] is away: Caffeine Trip. Be right back.
17:58:44 <lilo>http://conferences.oreillynet.com/os2003/
17:58:45 <dc_oscon> J: http://conferences.oreillynet.com/os2003/ from lilo
17:59:01 <kennyt>http://foo.bar/
17:59:02 <dc_oscon> K: http://foo.bar/ from kennyt
17:59:05 <kennyt> lol
17:59:08 * lilo looks at kennyt
17:59:10 <kennyt> j? k?
17:59:28 * kennyt looks back at lilo
18:00:03 * kennyt sighs
18:00:14 <Shimei> Shimei is now known as Shi|tea
18:02:28 <kennyt> dc_oscon:morehelp
18:02:28 <dc_oscon> Put emphasis in a comment by using *asterisks*
18:02:29 <dc_oscon> To create an inline link in a comment, say:
18:02:30 <dc_oscon> A:Look at [this thing here|http://pants.heddley.com]
18:02:31 <dc_oscon> You can also link to inline images in a comment:
18:02:32 <dc_oscon> A:Chump logo +[alt-text|http://pants.heddley.com/chump.png]
18:02:33 <dc_oscon> To see the last n links, say dc_oscon:view n (where n is a number)
18:02:34 <dc_oscon> To see the details of a link labelled A, say A: on a line on its own
18:02:35 <dc_oscon> To view a particular comment, say An:, where n is the number of the comment
18:02:36 <dc_oscon> To replace, say, the second comment on a link labelled A, say A2:replacement_text
18:02:37 <dc_oscon> To delete the second comment on a link labelled A, say A2:""
18:02:37 <kennyt> eeks
18:02:39 <dc_oscon> To set keywords for a link labelled A, say A:->keyword1 keyword2 etc.
18:02:40 <b1rk0ff> b1rk0ff is now known as b1rk0ff|OUT|
18:02:41 <dc_oscon> Send any comments or questions to chump@heddley.com
18:02:47 * kennyt hits dc_oscon
18:03:08 <lilo> okay, it's 11am... a whole set of 45 minutes programs started at 10:45
18:03:49 <Jaykul[AFK]> Jaykul[AFK] is now known as Jaykul
18:03:49 * Jaykul is back (gone 00:05:26)
18:08:12 <kennyt> kennyt is now known as loggy
18:08:36 <loggy> loggy is now known as kennyt
18:12:16 <sch> The Conway/Wall presentation on "What's new in Perl 6" is being given to a full room.
18:12:49 * kennyt looks around
18:13:39 <Shi|tea> it'd be nice to be able to get video streams from those...
18:13:51 <grishnav> grishnav is now known as vanhsirg
18:14:00 <Shi|tea> it'd have to cost money to watch though
18:14:10 <kennyt> Shi|tea: shush! ;)
18:14:17 <Shi|tea> :p
18:15:24 <elihu> speaking of sushi... for those new to Portland waning sushi, hit up Todai. All you can eat sushi buffet. it rocks! There's a 10% off coupon in the Marriot by the info desk.
18:15:26 * edd catches a few moments of quiet in the pressroom
18:15:37 <Shi|tea> yeah, todai is sweet...
18:15:54 <Shi|tea> I love their desserts too
18:16:15 <Shi|tea> though no one was speaking of sushi :p
18:16:27 <vanhsirg> vanhsirg is now known as pen0s
18:16:30 <pen0s> pen0s is now known as grishnav
18:18:03 <elihu> heh. thought the ! was an i. Must be hungry
18:22:10 <Adian> my brother got food poisoning from Todai once...
18:22:35 <Adian> needless to say, I don't eat there
18:24:05 * Improv_Away sits
18:25:47 <matchboy> are there really no people in here?
18:25:56 <grishnav> Nope. They are all at some convention.
18:25:57 <Improv_Away> Where's here?
18:25:57 <fajita> i heard here was the problem, I don't have much time
18:34:51 <BilldaCat> hello all
18:34:52 <fajita> He's not here today.
18:36:15 * Jaykul blinks at fajita. he looks hungry
18:44:22 <lilo> hi BilldaCat
18:45:13 <lilo> so, how is OSCON going? :)
18:46:38 * lilo figures people are pretty immersed in the programming
18:47:15 <grishnav> Or the convention.. ;)
18:48:52 <lilo> hehe, yeah 8)
18:48:54 <lilo> seems reasonable :)
18:50:59 <BilldaCat> not bad :)
18:51:43 <BilldaCat> trying to decide what sightseeing i want to do today.
18:55:05 <lilo> re danbri_dna
18:56:23 * Jaykul randombly mentions NASA's G5 review. Just to give people something to look at while they wait for more interesting fare. http://members.cox.net/craig.hunter/g5/
18:56:53 * Jaykul is feeling clever 'cause he snuck that by dc_oscon
18:59:01 <lilo> there's a report on yesterday at OSCON here.... http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/3464
19:01:16 <Jaykul> hrm. what makes dc_oscon ignore that? do you have to mention the URL on it's own to set him off?
19:02:16 <lilo> not sure
19:02:20 <lilo> hey DarG
19:02:35 <DarG> hi
19:02:37 <fajita> hola, DarG
19:02:53 <Jaykul> hey, is it just me ... or is there no CONTENT available about these session for non-attenders? http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2003/view/e_sess/4088
19:03:28 <lilo> Jaykul: one reason I like having a channel here for the conference is to shake up the usual dichotomy between attenders and non-attenders
19:03:49 <lilo> Jaykul: over time, maybe we'll see a bit more content availability for people following from afar
19:04:34 <Jaykul> well, I was just hoping, since he'd already delivered the speech, that they'd have it online. It is after all, an Open Source conference ;-)
19:04:37 <lilo> hmmm, there's a little typo/thinko in the conference report
19:04:57 <lilo> the reporter was suffering from jetlag yesterday, and he has Linus moving to OSDN instead of OSDL 8)
19:05:01 <lilo> I'm sure he'll fix it though
19:06:09 <Jaykul> uhm... what? "discusses Perl's new "source filter" feature. This magic allows you to write Perl programs in any language, and translate them to Perl at the last moment"
19:06:25 * Jaykul is going to have to go read up on Perl6. clearly
19:11:44 <lilo> hmmmm
19:12:21 <lilo> hey Schulyer!
19:14:20 <lilo> hmmmm
19:15:57 <Schuyler> hiya lilo
19:16:42 <kennyt> lilo: wow
19:20:37 <lilo> kennyt: it'll take him to a channel that says there's a problem
19:21:07 <kennyt> lilo: where? 8)
19:21:54 <lilo> #limbo
19:22:09 <kennyt> ah, now that ban syntax makes sense *g*
19:22:36 <lilo> hey louis
19:22:45 <lilo> re dajobe
19:22:58 <dajobe> hey - it's lunch
19:23:09 <louis> hi
19:23:18 <lilo> cool, I figured folks would probably stop by on their way 8)
19:23:25 <lilo> dajobe: how have things been going? :)
19:24:02 <dajobe> perl6 was fun
19:24:12 <dajobe> still vapo(u)rwear, imho
19:24:35 <dajobe> they've added Junctions which are quantum superpositions
19:26:33 <Jaykul> uhm. #limbo ... that's neat. Is it possible to set such bans for the rest of the world?
19:27:47 <kennyt> Jaykul: you need forwarding enabled
19:27:57 <Jaykul> err, what I mean is, can I use something like that on my channel?
19:28:06 <Jaykul> forwarding enabled ... where?
19:28:14 <kennyt> Jaykul: only if you get staff to enable it :)
19:28:41 <Jaykul> ah.
19:34:33 <lilo> Jaykul: right now it's an experimental feature
19:35:01 <lilo> Jaykul: might do a few more of them when 1.0.32 gets in, we added modes to allow forwarding to be disabled
19:35:18 <Jaykul> Neat.
19:35:34 <Jaykul> I could see using something like that once in a while.
19:35:45 <lilo> it can be handy
19:36:04 <lilo> actually, the only reason to leave it +X in 1.0.32 is that traditionally everytime we assume every last bug with it is fixed, there's one more 8)
19:36:31 <Jaykul> hehe
19:36:49 <lilo> but we've added a feature to chanserv which lets a staffer with umode +X add +-PF to mode locking for a channel
19:36:57 <lilo> they have to be the one to remove those modes
19:37:05 <Jaykul> I see
19:37:13 <lilo> but at least you can get it set relatively easily
19:37:42 <Jaykul> Well, I've got to go now, taking Probability & Statistics over the summer, and ... must take a test.
19:37:47 <lilo> enjoy
19:38:02 <lilo> hehe, digressions
19:38:10 <lilo> dajobe: I'm definitely looking forward to perl6
19:46:43 <lilo> bingo
19:47:12 <lilo> for those of us not in attendance, I'm poking around looking for interesting summaries and so on
19:48:22 <lilo> I saw this on the irc.perl.org side, butwasn't sure it was linked anywhere
19:48:43 <lilo> Ricardo Signes has some journals and other stuff up from OSCON2003: http://rjbs.manxome.org/oscon/
19:49:04 <lilo> in particular, he's got notes on the perl6 talk: http://rjbs.manxome.org/oscon/perl6
19:49:11 <questionlp> hello all!
19:49:11 <fajita> He's not here today.
19:49:16 <lilo> heya questionlp
19:49:24 * lilo looks at fajita
19:49:27 <questionlp> how is it going?
19:51:09 <DrBacchus> See also oscon.kwiki.org
19:53:54 <lilo> yah, there's quite a bit of good stuff on there
19:54:12 <questionlp> hello itamar
19:54:35 <lilo> lilo has changed the topic to: http://oscon2003.xmlhack.com/ || http://oscon.kwiki.org/ || O'Reilly Open Source Software Convention 2003 Chat -- July 7-11
19:54:38 <lilo> there we go
19:54:44 <lilo> hey itamar, mlangham
19:54:49 <itamar> hi
19:54:49 <fajita> hey, itamar
19:54:58 <mlangham> hi
19:54:58 <fajita> hey, mlangham
19:55:05 * lilo is thinking fajita is a bot
19:55:39 <lilo> yah, seems to be
19:55:44 <DrBacchus> lilo: Yeah, he's my bot from #apache. I missed him.
19:55:50 <lilo> ah, okay 8)
19:55:50 <kennyt> yup
19:55:56 <DrBacchus> I can have him leave if you want.
19:56:09 <lilo> well, maybe just not have him say hello to new people 8)
19:56:18 <lilo> if a bot says hello, there's no follow-up 8)
19:56:23 <questionlp> :D
19:56:24 <DrBacchus> easier to just have him leave.
19:56:28 <lilo> ah, kay
19:56:32 * lilo looks apologetic
19:57:11 <lilo> so, apparently quantum superpositions are standard in perl6
19:57:23 <DrBacchus> Hmm. Apparently I've forgotten the syntax
19:57:26 <lilo> I love an interpreter design with a sense of humor 8)
19:57:28 <DrBacchus> fajita: part #oscon
19:57:28 <fajita> goodbye, DrBacchus.
19:57:33 <DrBacchus> There we go
19:57:44 <lilo> he should ask, "Will I dream?" :)
19:58:06 <DrBacchus> heh
19:58:20 <Improv_Away> Improv_Away is now known as Improv
19:58:29 <Improv> Hey all
19:58:57 <questionlp> hey improv!
19:59:03 <kennyt> my bot has !kill >:-D
19:59:13 <questionlp> :P
19:59:33 <lilo> so, junctions are something like a matrix type on lsd
19:59:52 <lilo> I kind of like it
20:00:10 <DrBacchus> It is flipping cold in here.
20:00:25 <questionlp> downstairs?
20:00:26 <Improv> DrB: Where's here?
20:00:54 <lilo> perl6 is going to be odd....which I think is appropriate, perl has always been a bit odd
20:00:56 <DrBacchus> I'm waiting for the Perl Lightning Talks. Salon something-or-other
20:00:57 <questionlp> i'm up by one of the exits in the hotel lobby, so i get a nice gust of cool wind here and there
20:01:23 <kennyt> lilo: <dontflame>PHP</dontflame>
20:01:23 <questionlp> i'm not sure what to think of perl6 either
20:01:43 <questionlp> heh... i do most of my stuff in php, some python... very little perl
20:01:44 <DrBacchus> kennyt: What about php?
20:02:06 <kennyt> DrBacchus: who needs perl when you have php?</dontflameme:)>
20:02:27 <DrBacchus> Who needs php when you have cobol.
20:02:37 <kennyt> teehehehe
20:02:43 <questionlp> how needs * when you have *+1
20:02:48 <questionlp> :D
20:02:51 <DrBacchus> Seems like a silly thing to say. It's all about preferences, really.
20:03:04 <Improv> Who needs Java when we have /bin/sh ?
20:03:05 <Improv> :)
20:03:08 <questionlp> hehe
20:03:12 <kennyt> heh
20:03:15 * DrBacchus goes back to implementing an OS in dos batch files.
20:03:25 <DrBacchus> Oh, wait, that's called Windows.
20:03:33 <questionlp> I think Java is going to end up relegated in the super highend enterprise apps
20:03:47 <Improv> Actually, that's an interesting task -- to write a .BAT interpreter for Unix
20:03:47 <lilo> who needs nasal decongestant when you have pyrex?
20:04:05 <questionlp> or wasabi
20:04:18 <DrBacchus> wasabi++
20:04:32 <Improv> Bonus points for letting it emulate dos commands outside of command.com
20:04:34 <questionlp> wasabi with minced habaneros
20:04:39 <lilo> hehe
20:04:49 * kennyt writes a log bot in php
20:04:50 * lilo fans his forehead
20:05:14 <questionlp> how about running freedos under bochs under linux/bsd under vmware on windows which is virtual pc'd on a linux system emulating dos?
20:05:36 <questionlp> :P
20:05:37 <lilo> how bout those Dodgers?
20:05:39 <lilo> 8)
20:05:51 <questionlp> yay for draft dodgers!
20:05:59 <questionlp> OOOOOH... THooooooooooooose dodgers
20:06:00 <lilo> oh, I meant corn dodgers
20:06:09 <lilo> but either one, really
20:06:17 <questionlp> dunno
20:19:30 <lilo> questionlp: so, what sessions have you been to so far?
20:19:50 <lilo> questionlp: anything interesting today? 8)
20:19:52 <questionlp> subversion tactics: python
20:20:00 <questionlp> and yahoo + php, one year later
20:20:23 <lilo> hmmm....how was yahoo lecture?
20:20:30 <questionlp> i'm taking a break during the third session period and will probably do the openoffice.org after that
20:20:37 <questionlp> pretty good
20:20:37 <lilo> oic, cool
20:20:50 <lilo> questionlp: so, one year later, how are yahoo and php doing? 8)
20:20:54 <questionlp> yahoo is still using bsd, so that's coo ;)
20:20:58 * lilo nods
20:21:03 <lilo> how about PHP? 8)
20:21:06 <questionlp> good... but they have found some pitfalls
20:21:09 <questionlp> with php
20:21:19 <lilo> what sort of problems did they have?
20:21:25 <questionlp> oo isn't so great, they've had to implement a lot of logic into c/c++ extensions for php
20:21:50 <lilo> performance-related, or feature-related problems?
20:21:53 <questionlp> php accellerators a must for performance
20:21:56 <lilo> hey erista
20:22:04 <lilo> questionlp: ah, yeah
20:22:13 <lilo> questionlp: what did they use along those lines?
20:22:13 <erista> hey lilo
20:22:14 <questionlp> oo is the biggest feature-related problem since oo in php4 aren't that great
20:22:23 <lilo> ah, hmmmm
20:22:36 <questionlp> they wouldn't say exactly which php accellerators they use
20:22:55 <lilo> oic
20:22:55 <questionlp> but it could be a combination of ioncube, apc and mmcache (?)
20:23:00 * lilo nods
20:23:08 <questionlp> zend could be an option, but it's f-ing expensive
20:23:13 <lilo> yeah, I gather
20:23:37 <questionlp> using oo in c++ extensions for php is faster and more scalable than php4 oo
20:23:47 <questionlp> so that's the reason why they went that way
20:23:57 <questionlp> but they are openly looking at php5 and freebsd 5.x
20:24:05 <lilo> well, that's encouraging
20:24:08 <questionlp> yeah
20:24:15 <lilo> I know next to nothing about what php5 is going to be like though
20:24:21 <questionlp> oo in php5 is supposed to be much better
20:24:28 <lilo> how about performance?
20:24:37 <questionlp> i haven't heard too too much there
20:24:41 * lilo nods
20:24:49 <questionlp> it is supposed to be a bit faster, but nothing specific
20:24:51 <lilo> let's see...ioncube is proprietary, doesn't look expensive
20:25:01 <questionlp> there is a free version of ioncube phpa
20:25:11 <questionlp> but there is no support and limited builds available
20:25:14 <lilo> oic
20:25:16 <questionlp> i use it at home and it's ok
20:25:20 <questionlp> but not great
20:25:24 <lilo> is it beer-free or licensed free?
20:25:30 <questionlp> free as in beer
20:25:34 <lilo> re mdubinko
20:25:34 <questionlp> closed source
20:25:35 <lilo> oic
20:26:10 <questionlp> APC is supposed to be fairly better than phpa in a lot of cases and it is open sourced
20:26:32 <questionlp> another thing learned is that PHP's Smarty is slow as ****
20:26:36 <lilo> ah, was just looking
20:26:42 <lilo> that's useful input 8)
20:26:48 <questionlp> :)
20:26:59 <questionlp> i guess it's way too abstracted
20:27:17 <questionlp> and abstraction in php is expensive in terms if resources
20:27:31 <lilo> hmmm, so mmcache is free software
20:27:43 <questionlp> yeah... open sourced iirc
20:28:34 <questionlp> another thing i learned from the yahoo session was that for an optimal and lightweight php build for a server farm - configure and build a very minimal php and build extensions separately and tie them in individually
20:29:11 <lilo> ah, hmmm
20:29:14 <questionlp> of course that increases the load time to link to the .so's but it's only done once per instance iirc
20:29:18 * lilo nods
20:29:26 <lilo> why does that work better?
20:29:28 <lilo> hey andy5m
20:29:31 <lilo> erm andym 8)
20:29:41 <andym> hey lilo
20:29:49 <questionlp> instead of having php statically load all of the modules, it reduces the memory footprint
20:30:08 <lilo> ah....so you get the benefits of shared storage
20:30:13 <lilo> yeah, that actually does make sense 8)
20:30:22 <questionlp> i mean... if you have a server that only parses data via xml-rpc or soap via wsdl or http xmls, then you won't need gd or mysql
20:30:25 <questionlp> yeah
20:30:28 * lilo nods
20:31:37 <lilo> I guess if they use ioncube it's to provide security between applications?
20:32:08 <questionlp> i'm not too familiar with the diffs between each of the accelerators
20:32:26 * lilo nods
20:32:37 <lilo> I wonder if apache 2.0 would have too big a footprint for them
20:33:03 <lilo> you can use it to separate php sessions by user, but that might not be very efficient
20:33:10 <questionlp> apache 2.0 and php are still considered experimental support :*
20:33:11 <questionlp> (
20:33:14 * lilo nods
20:33:37 <lilo> yeah, I've stayed away from 2.0, I'm waiting for the dust to settle
20:33:38 <questionlp> apache 2.0 seems a bit more "bloated" than apache 1.3.x
20:33:54 <questionlp> i dunno... 1.3 just works for me
20:33:56 * lilo nods
20:34:28 <questionlp> but i'm willing to take the plunge with php5 once it's available in the freebsd ports collection :D:D:D
20:34:51 <questionlp> 10 minutes till the next session
20:35:06 <lilo> I found some introductory material for php5: http://www.phpbuilder.com/columns/argerich20030411.php3
20:35:11 <questionlp> but i'll be chilling out since none of those sessions grab my attention
20:35:22 * lilo nods
20:35:26 <questionlp> php builder is a nice site
20:35:26 <lilo> hmmm,
20:35:30 <lilo> I:http://www.phpbuilder.com/columns/argerich20030411.php3
20:35:30 <dc_oscon> Added comment I8.
20:35:55 * questionlp wants to kick that bot
20:36:03 <questionlp> dc_oscon: shut up!
20:36:04 <dc_oscon> Not understood: shut up!
20:36:09 <lilo> well, at least it's not recording every last url now
20:36:13 <kennyt> argh
20:36:15 <lilo> probably better to require it to be done manually
20:36:17 <questionlp> yeah
20:36:30 <kennyt> lizznog: you da man
20:36:35 <lilo> I:(above is introductory material for php5)
20:36:35 <dc_oscon> Added comment I9.
20:37:08 <questionlp> heh
20:37:50 <questionlp> lol...
20:38:00 <lilo> re rooneg
20:38:05 <questionlp> check the latest url on http://oscon2003.xmlhack.com/ :D
20:38:57 <questionlp> lilo: so ya at oscon (i can't remember if you've answered that q or not)
20:39:00 <questionlp> ?
20:39:44 <lilo> no, wasn't able to
20:39:48 <lilo> no budget for such stuff
20:40:01 <questionlp> ah
20:40:33 <lilo> I should put up a contrib url for freenode 8)
20:40:45 <questionlp> :)
20:41:12 <questionlp> i dunno if anyone in here would agree with the following comment or not... but:
20:41:24 <questionlp> the eclipse part of the keynote was primarily just "uh"'s
20:41:33 <lilo> oic
20:41:38 <lilo> well, I remember hearing that earlier
20:41:50 <lilo> ged said something
20:41:56 <lilo> 1057768965 <ged> speaker =~ s/uh//
20:42:04 <questionlp> :D
20:42:24 <lilo> but you know, when you hit the stage and everybody is staring at you, it can be a bit tough 8)
20:42:31 <questionlp> yep
20:42:44 <lilo> let me try doing another URL, I think I see my problem
20:43:22 <lilo> re DrBacchus
20:43:29 <DrBacchus> Hi
20:44:07 <lilo> M:PHP5 intro 1057768965 <ged> speaker =~ s/uh//
20:44:07 <dc_oscon> Label M not found.
20:44:10 <lilo> argh
20:44:16 <questionlp> haha
20:44:17 <lilo> anyway, clearly I do not understand how the bot works 8)
20:44:31 * lilo goes off to find docs
20:45:41 <lilo>http://www.phpbuilder.com/columns/argerich20030411.php3
20:45:42 <dc_oscon> M: http://www.phpbuilder.com/columns/argerich20030411.php3 from lilo
20:45:47 <lilo> there we go
20:45:58 <lilo> M:|Some introductory material on PHP5
20:45:58 <dc_oscon> Titled item M.
20:46:02 * andym leaves to avoid the bot
20:46:08 <questionlp> hehe
20:47:13 <questionlp> L:|Silly bot
20:47:13 <dc_oscon> Titled item L.
20:47:27 <questionlp> :D
20:47:49 * lilo is not sure what it is about some folks and bots
20:47:53 <lilo> this one seems fairly well-behaved
20:47:54 <lilo> hey DarG
20:48:02 * DarG waves
20:48:23 <lilo> re edd
20:48:27 <questionlp> hello DarG
20:48:35 <edd> re.
20:48:42 * edd in Guido's session
20:48:49 <edd> he has no slides, the talk will entirely by Q&A
20:48:53 <edd> about what's new in Python
20:48:57 * mdubinko there too
20:48:57 <questionlp> is it any better than the state of the snake?
20:49:01 <itamar> anyone know where Kevin Altis is?
20:49:09 <questionlp> itamar: no...
20:49:15 <itamar> someone needs to tell him the appleevents talk is happening
20:49:19 <edd> questionlp: dunno, I was still travelling here at that point
20:49:20 <DrBacchus> Or who for that matter.
20:49:30 <questionlp> ah
20:49:58 <lilo> re DanielSmith
20:53:42 <DarG> new www.perl.org announced in lignting talk
20:54:00 <edd> guido talking about the removal of rexec
20:54:06 <edd> over my head, i'm afraid
20:54:45 <rooneg> i should have gone to the perl lightning talks... this 'distributed development' talk is kind of lame.
20:54:57 * eric needs rexec for xvif :-(
20:55:08 <questionlp> heh
20:55:21 <edd> eric: oh dear. so what are your options now?
20:55:43 <eric> drop a nice feature (or at least allow users to invalidate it).
20:55:51 <questionlp> ip wars - sco v linux will be crowded
20:59:09 <itamar> rexec was insecure
20:59:17 <itamar> so there was no point in keeping it
20:59:23 <questionlp> i dont think i've ever used rexec
21:04:06 <edd> dc:view 1
21:04:11 <edd> dc_oscon: view 1
21:04:11 <dc_oscon> O: http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/bsdi/bsdisuit.html
21:04:19 <edd> O:|USL vs. BSDI documents
21:04:20 <dc_oscon> Titled item O.
21:04:30 <DrBacchus> The feature is broken, so the solution is to remove it, rather than fix it?
21:04:34 <DrBacchus> That's ... odd.
21:04:38 <edd> O:*In view of the interest in the newly-launched suit by SCO against IBM, I thought it might be of interest to make available some of the documents from an earlier case. Here USL, at the time the owner of a predecessor of the intellectual property now controlled by SCO, sued BSD Incorporated.*
21:04:38 <dc_oscon> Added comment O1.
21:04:42 <DrBacchus> Is that the Python way to do things?
21:04:59 <itamar> DrBacchus: it was *fundemantally* broken
21:05:16 <DrBacchus> The same question applies, I think.
21:05:24 <itamar> and no one had the time to fix it
21:05:25 <DrBacchus> Are they replacing it with another regex implementation?
21:05:37 <DrBacchus> regex is a pretty important feature in any language, I would think.
21:05:38 <itamar> DrBacchus: huh?
21:05:43 <itamar> this isn't regexs
21:05:45 <itamar> this is rexec
21:05:55 <itamar> (restricted execution)
21:06:04 <DrBacchus> I'm sorry, I misunderstood.
21:06:05 <itamar> so being broken is a security issue
21:06:12 <DrBacchus> I have no idea what that means, so I guess I don't care.
21:06:14 <DrBacchus> ;-)
21:06:22 <questionlp> :P
21:08:09 * ralphm says hi from .nl
21:08:32 <questionlp> hello ralphm-from-.nl :D
21:08:40 <ralphm> heh
21:09:13 <ralphm> can't be over there IRL, so I thought I'd join you this way
21:09:14 <edd> Talk about Python.NET
21:09:26 <questionlp> ralphm: :)
21:09:28 <edd> It needs some loving.
21:10:00 <questionlp> python.net would be a good way to get programmers where i work to use python for prototyping their .net dev stuff
21:10:04 <itamar> edd: there's a .NET wrapper
21:10:25 <edd> itamar: what I want is to be able to target the CLR from Python
21:10:50 <itamar> oh
21:10:52 <itamar> can't do that
21:10:58 <itamar> probably will never be able to
21:11:15 <questionlp> part of it is that the clr requires strong typing iirc
21:11:19 <itamar> you can call C# stuff from python, sbclass C# classes, etc.
21:11:41 <edd> it's not impossible with enough effort. after all, jython exists.
21:11:47 <edd> i guess someone needs to pay for it
21:12:09 <questionlp> maybe pyMono?
21:12:10 <questionlp> :D
21:12:28 <itamar> someone tried
21:12:35 <itamar> (mark hammond and greg stein)
21:12:39 <itamar> it was pathetically slow
21:12:39 <questionlp> ah
21:12:52 <questionlp> ugh
21:13:13 <jerenkrantz> m$ funded that
21:14:28 <questionlp> damned acrobat reader plugin...
21:15:00 <itamar>http://www.zope.org/Members/Brian/PythonNet/index_html
21:15:01 <dc_oscon> P: http://www.zope.org/Members/Brian/PythonNet/index_html from itamar
21:15:53 <questionlp> at least the sco v linux will be held in one of the bigger salons
21:16:04 <itamar> personally, seeing how badly Python faired on CLR
21:16:21 <itamar> I think the MS claim that its better than JVM for multiple languages is bullshit
21:16:51 <questionlp> heh... where the multiple langauges is C#, J# and VB.NET
21:17:09 <Improv> Improv is now known as Improv_Away
21:17:41 <lilo> I'm still not seeing the massive utility of .NET .... I'm sure that people are working their way into it, but it seems like an iceberg
21:18:09 <questionlp> yeah...
21:18:41 <questionlp> well... i'm going to get ready to head to the next session
21:18:54 <lilo> k, let us know how it goes :)
21:18:56 <questionlp> i'll probably be back on at around 4:30p
21:19:01 <questionlp> will do
21:19:06 <lilo> cool :)
21:19:16 <questionlp> i have all of the notes in a text file opened in vim ;)
21:19:19 <questionlp> cya
21:22:43 <ircleuser> ircleuser is now known as MacRat
21:25:49 <MacRat> Anyone here????
21:25:56 <itamar> yep
21:25:56 <DrBacchus> No
21:26:08 <DrBacchus> Who you gonna believe?
21:26:33 <questionlp> ok... i lied
21:26:36 <questionlp> i'm back :D
21:26:40 <lilo> hehe
21:26:45 <lilo> wb 8)
21:27:09 <MacRat> Come on to Salon G and see the OpenOffice.org preso w/ Danese.
21:27:11 <questionlp> i've got enough battery life and am like 15' away from the ap
21:27:21 <questionlp> MacRat: already there!
21:27:27 <questionlp> or here :)
21:29:12 <lilo> hehe
21:29:30 <questionlp> so where are *you* macrat?
21:30:23 <lilo> hey evlist
21:30:35 <lilo> oops, somebody had your nick regged
21:31:03 <MacRat> questionlp: Danese is my boss...Take a good guess. ;-)
21:31:08 <lilo> questionlp: MacRat: let us know how the openoffice presentation is :)
21:31:26 <questionlp> MacRat: dunno :D
21:31:40 <questionlp> the guy running solaris on his laptop? :D
21:35:08 * zul is away: I'm busy
21:35:19 * zul is back (gone 00:00:03)
21:59:58 <don-o> im at OScon and I have no pass
22:00:55 <lilo> hmmm, hmmm, I'm in Marsport without Hilda
22:01:05 <lilo> oops, sorry
22:01:10 <lilo> don-o: no pass??
22:01:32 <don-o> lilo: i have the exhibitor's hall pass, but not a pass for the conferences. :(
22:01:44 <lilo> yeouch
22:02:24 <questionlp> press pass here :D
22:02:26 <don-o> im using some freaky wireless net called "Apple Wireless Network" which im hoping is not some script kiddy cracking my ssh sessions :)
22:02:41 <questionlp> heh
22:02:51 <don-o> how can I get one??
22:03:14 <lilo> hmmm, you would probably have to purchase a one-day
22:03:16 <lilo> they're not cheap
22:03:21 <questionlp> i'm an ass't managing editor for an online magazine
22:03:34 <don-o> yeah, like $400 not cheap. i spend less on food for a month.
22:03:36 <lilo> questionlp: cool....say, you aren't hiring, are you? *grin*
22:03:47 <questionlp> it's daemon news ;)
22:03:48 <don-o> lilo are you looking for a job?
22:03:58 <lilo> questionlp: hmmm, you guys looking for articles?
22:04:00 <questionlp> it's volunteer... so not paid :D
22:04:02 <lilo> don-o: definitely
22:04:03 <MacRat> don-o: the script kiddies are on the MS Wireless Network. ;-)
22:04:07 <questionlp> lilo: yes :)
22:04:27 <lilo> questionlp: no guarantees but maybe I can come up with something, I'll talk to you about wants 8)
22:04:40 <lilo> questionlp: where do I email you? 8)
22:04:41 <questionlp> heh...
22:04:57 <don-o> lilo what kind of job are you looking for?
22:05:34 <lilo> don-o: system administration and some coding in C/perl/whatever
22:05:56 <lilo> don-o: I code pretty well, though I haven't really made a career of it per se
22:06:00 * lilo has been coding since 1968
22:07:02 <lilo> don-o: would prefer contract, but I haven't really found much out there, things are a bit slow
22:07:18 <lilo> eep, I hate putting that into logs
22:07:22 * lilo hides
22:07:27 <questionlp> heh
22:07:43 * lilo shrugs philosophically and moves on :)
22:07:53 <questionlp> :)
22:09:36 <BilldaCat> 1968! yikes
22:09:42 <BilldaCat> i was -10 back then
22:09:43 <lilo> 8th grade :)
22:10:00 <questionlp> -12 for me
22:10:03 <BilldaCat> hehhe
22:10:03 <lilo> on a 33/ASR connected to GE TymeSharing :)
22:10:11 <BilldaCat> wow
22:10:18 <lilo> Dartmouth BASIC
22:10:21 <lilo> not just basic
22:10:27 <lilo> Dartmouth BASIC :)
22:10:58 <questionlp> 10 print-y'all "What yew wont?"
22:11:00 <questionlp> :D
22:11:18 <don-o_> sorry bout that. my lappy went to sleep due to low batt
22:13:24 <lilo> np, what was the last thing you heard? 8)
22:13:35 <lilo> don-o: oh, wait, you can look in the logs 8)
22:14:31 <BilldaCat> i thought i was old school programming sprite parades on my c64
22:14:33 <BilldaCat> lol
22:15:38 <lilo> hehe BilldaCat c64....that's one of them new-fangled gizmos, right? 8)
22:15:51 <BilldaCat> to you, i'm sure :D
22:15:51 <edd> i have one in my cellphone
22:15:52 <BilldaCat> heheh
22:17:04 <judah> edd did you make it to p'tld?
22:17:12 <lilo> BilldaCat: I loved PC's, they were like antique mainframes on a desk 8)
22:17:33 <edd> judah: yes, i am here in sunny glorious pr0tland
22:17:34 <BilldaCat> hahahh
22:17:41 <BilldaCat> the weather out here rocks
22:17:44 <BilldaCat> i dont want to go home
22:17:44 <judah> awesome!
22:17:53 <questionlp> heh...
22:17:57 <questionlp> not a problem for me
22:18:06 <questionlp> ... i live within 15-20 minutes from here
22:18:11 <BilldaCat> lucky
22:18:20 <questionlp> but remember it's summer ;)
22:18:27 <BilldaCat> ahh
22:18:35 <questionlp> all three other seasons usually mean cloudy and rain
22:18:41 <questionlp> not always and not everyday
22:19:18 <questionlp> bbl
22:27:05 <hanna> damn weather... now people wont believe that it rains all the time and might want to move here ;)
22:27:53 <BilldaCat> heheh
22:34:00 <questionlp> back
22:41:23 <questionlp> brb... switching connections
22:42:50 <questionlp> i think that's a bit better now
22:44:06 <questionlp> ok... maybe not better.
23:11:47 * dajobe just saw the worst talk so far - on apache AXIS - useuless and patronising
23:13:43 <BilldaCat> heheh
23:15:42 <dajobe> nex I think I'll go to see the SWIG one and then subversion
23:15:57 <dajobe> I've done enough CVS to wonder what might be better than that
23:19:09 <danbri> who gave the axis talk?
23:19:20 <dajobe> some f00l
23:19:27 <dajobe> Christian Gross it says
23:21:05 <danbri> seems a bit harsh, but i wasn't there
23:21:13 <danbri> some good work gone into Axis, regardless...
23:21:38 <dajobe> it wasn't apparaent from this presetnation
23:21:58 <dajobe> also admitted they hadn't got soap 1.2 (final) at all, were months out of date
23:22:18 <danbri> not alone in that
23:22:47 <dajobe> I was a bit surprised by the hubris - "only 2 SOAP toolkits, .net and axis"
23:23:02 <dajobe> only - only two decent that is
23:23:21 <dajobe> then, if you don't use java, change to it
23:26:33 <DrBacchus> Has another session started?
23:26:39 <dajobe> in 5 mins
23:29:30 <gautam> state of parrot is almost ready to go
23:29:30 <DrBacchus> So I picked a great time to have a book signing, hmm?
23:29:30 <dajobe> yup, I'm off too :)
23:33:05 <kennyt> hi hi
23:33:21 <kennyt> bottie! oh bottttttie!
23:55:48 <Diablo-D3> woah, more peeps
23:56:11 <danese> Hi, SCO fans!
23:56:24 * gautam growls
23:56:28 <gautam> :-)
23:56:31 <danese> It was a yoke
23:57:39 <danese> Hey, I have a good Hydra doc about R0mel's "business models" talk. Anybody know how I go about giving it to O'Reilly?
23:58:01 <gautam> how about putting it on the wiki
23:58:36 <gautam>http://oscon.kwiki.org/
23:58:36 <dc_oscon> Q: http://oscon.kwiki.org/ from gautam