Open Source Conference IRC Chat Logs for 2003-07-10
Open Source Conference IRC Chat Logs for 2003-07-10 |
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This web site provides the chat logs for the OSCON Community Coverage for attendee-generated notes and coverage of the O'Reilly Open Source Software Convention 2003.
To join in, point your IRC client at irc.freenode.net's #oscon channel. The channel is publicly logged, and also runs a chump bot, dc_oscon, for which there are instructions available.
You are here: Logs Home / 2003-07-10
00:02:40 <judah> yeah! my headache is gone.
00:10:31 <Diablo-D3> Damn.
00:10:50 * Diablo-D3 is reading that x86 vs ppc article that was posted on slashdot
00:11:04 <Diablo-D3> why do people still use x86?
00:11:35 <DrBacchus> Diablo-D3: Because it costs a lot less.
00:11:42 <questionlp> ?
00:12:57 <Diablo-D3> DrBacchus: in the long run, it doesnt
00:13:08 <Diablo-D3> less power usage
00:13:41 <DrBacchus> You have to use a computer for a hell of a long time before the difference in power usage makes up for the addtional cost.
00:13:42 <danese> Well, sadly it appears to me that isn't hosting space for actual content, only for pointers. My blog space isn't appropriate for this (long) document, either...
00:13:42 <Diablo-D3> and since, in most places in the world, power costs lots of money, the fact that ppc uses a shitload less power, ppcs are _much_ cheaper to run
00:14:26 <DrBacchus> Tell you what. You buy me some hardware, and I'll pay your electric bill for a few months.
00:14:37 <lilo> danese: how long is the document?
00:15:00 <Diablo-D3> DrBacchus: I get new hardware roughly every 5 years
00:15:11 <danese> Maybe 3 pages...not sure (its in text format, of course)
00:15:12 <Diablo-D3> DrBacchus: so it isnt over a few months, its over a few years.
00:15:43 <DrBacchus> Diablo-D3: I spend, maybe $1000 a year, total, on electricity.
00:15:44 <lilo> danese: it's not likely to get slashdotted? 8)
00:15:55 <DrBacchus> I can't imagine that my computers are a significant percentage of that.
00:16:06 <danese> Nope, don't think so...
00:16:08 * lilo can handle bandwidth, just not quite slashdotting
00:16:16 <Diablo-D3> DrBacchus: holy crap, that little?
00:16:25 <DrBacchus> I don't believe that, even over 5 years, that it would pay for itself to buy hardware 3 times as expensive
00:16:39 <gautam> it's sad that kwiki won't let you upload attachments, twiki does
00:16:41 <Diablo-D3> ppc isnt _that_ expensive, DrBacchus
00:16:42 <lilo> danese: if you can put it in an email attachment I'll pop it up on http://somegeek.org/danese/...
00:16:50 <apple> apple is now known as phroggy
00:17:01 <lilo> danese: levin at somegeek dot org
00:17:12 <Diablo-D3> how much would it cost for a high end non-apple g4 system?
00:17:38 <phroggy> non-Apple?
00:17:45 <lilo> danese: the bandwidth is pretty good
00:17:49 <Diablo-D3> well, not a macintosh.
00:18:00 <DrBacchus> I have no idea. I've never bought one.
00:18:07 <DrBacchus> oh, non-apple
00:18:12 <phroggy> for what purpose?
00:18:18 <DrBacchus> I spent about $500 for the last machine I bought to be a server.
00:18:22 <phroggy> there are a couple companies that sell them.
00:18:28 <Diablo-D3> phroggy: a workstation
00:18:34 <phroggy> they're more expensive than a comparable Mac.
00:19:33 <Diablo-D3> nothing can be as expensive as a mac
00:19:58 <phroggy> you'd be surprised.
00:20:26 * Diablo-D3 has trouble believing that
00:20:42 <phroggy> I don't remember the name of the companies or anything...
00:20:55 <phroggy> but yeah, nobody sells PowerPC systems cheaper than Apple.
00:21:08 <gautam> in an apples to apples comparison, Xserve fairs well
00:21:16 <gautam> :-)
00:21:41 <phroggy> the eMac isn't a bad machine...
00:21:50 <phroggy> noisier than I'd like.
00:22:00 <Diablo-D3> what is an Xserve? I keep hearing about them
00:22:01 <questionlp> the eMac is a good "desktop" system
00:22:09 <phroggy> www.apple.com/xserve
00:22:10 <questionlp> Xserve is a 1u mac server
00:22:14 <questionlp> dual g4 capable
00:22:14 <phroggy> yeah.
00:22:28 <Diablo-D3> Hrm
00:22:29 <questionlp> then there is Xserve RAID which is an IDE->Fibre-Channel storage array system
00:22:31 <Diablo-D3> think I can use it as a desktop?
00:22:41 <questionlp> it's quite loud ;)
00:22:46 <gautam> it's meant to be rack mounted
00:22:52 <Diablo-D3> glgks;dkg
00:22:52 <lilo> o'edcnvv
00:22:55 * Diablo-D3 explodes
00:22:58 <questionlp> a used dual g4 867 may be a better option
00:23:01 <phroggy> Diablo-D3: you could, but why?
00:23:09 <lilo> (my four-year-old son, Benjamin, says hi :)
00:23:12 <Diablo-D3> wtf is the point of having ppc if no one can use it?
00:23:15 <questionlp> it's not made for desktop use
00:23:15 <lilo> (I have no explanation for what Diablo typed ;)
00:23:20 <phroggy> Diablo-D3: what do you mean?
00:23:33 <questionlp> lol
00:24:02 <questionlp> lilo: we know you are a mastermind behind freenode and probably have uber powers
00:24:23 <Diablo-D3> a? try the.
00:24:31 <Diablo-D3> phroggy: well, it costs mad $$.
00:24:48 <phroggy> Diablo-D3: compared to..? a low-end PC?
00:24:50 <lilo> questionlp: ah, hmm
00:24:58 <questionlp> an ibook that is around $1000 isn't mad $$$
00:25:01 <Diablo-D3> compared to a comparible x86 syste,
00:25:12 <Diablo-D3> an ibook isnt a desktop, questionlp
00:25:15 <phroggy> btw, I've noticed the VAST majority of laptops people are carrying around here at OSCon are PowerBooks and iBooks.
00:25:32 <questionlp> phroggy: yep... it makes me want to get an ibook :)
00:25:40 <gautam> that's because geeks like a unix box with a pretty gui
00:25:42 <questionlp> at least it gets better battery life than my thinkpad :\
00:25:52 <Diablo-D3> Bleh, I give up.
00:25:56 <Diablo-D3> x86 > * =(
00:25:57 <phroggy> eMac = $799
00:26:08 <questionlp> it may not be as powerful as an equivalent x86, but it's more efficient
00:26:11 <questionlp> ppc anyway
00:26:18 <questionlp> i can't say the same about mac os x ;)
00:26:24 <phroggy> 800MHz G4, 128MB, 40GB, CD-ROM drive.
00:26:25 <Diablo-D3> I want a ppc box I can treat like an x86 box.
00:26:41 <kennyt> how about a g5?
00:26:49 <phroggy> Diablo-D3: you can get one, but Apple won't officially support it, and it'll cost you more than a Mac would.
00:26:54 <questionlp> emac with mac os x, openoffice.org or microsoft office, bsd tools
00:27:03 <Diablo-D3> =/
00:27:03 <questionlp> boom... you've got yourself a fancy bsd-like boxen
00:27:44 <gautam> i used to install cygwin on any windoze box i had to rely on
00:27:55 <questionlp> x86 > * ; where price/performance ratio is required
00:28:00 <gautam> now that I have access to mac os x i get *nix natively
00:28:01 <Diablo-D3> I wish a company would make atx ppc970 capable mobos
00:28:18 <questionlp> x86 < (most risc) ; where stability, reliability and scalability are required
00:28:34 <Diablo-D3> x86 is reliable.
00:28:34 <Diablo-D3> and stable.
00:28:37 <questionlp> Diablo-D3: it may take a while :P
00:28:42 <Diablo-D3> thats never been an issue.
00:28:48 <questionlp> Diablo-D3: not for everything
00:29:09 * Diablo-D3 can make any non-windows-running x86 box very stable
00:29:48 <Diablo-D3> by box I mean _box_. A real box. Not emedded or laptop or not-box-like.
00:29:53 <questionlp> but stable enough to run critical financial, medical, emergency or air control systems?
00:30:12 <questionlp> x86 is getting there...
00:30:15 <DrBacchus> ok, new topic.
00:30:41 <questionlp> but not quite without the use of clustering and mad failover and redundancies that would increase latencies in such transactions
00:30:41 <Diablo-D3> questionlp: yeah, but who would want to?
00:30:59 <questionlp> unfortunately... cheap-ass companies that don't know any better?
00:31:01 <Diablo-D3> you use clustering no matter what
00:31:04 <Diablo-D3> ppcs fail too.
00:31:24 <questionlp> ppc's aren't used in such systems though
00:31:33 <Diablo-D3> Everything fails, and everything needs a failover.
00:31:37 <questionlp> the big brother of the PPC 970 is... the POWER4
00:31:46 <Diablo-D3> well, this is a x86 vs ppc here.
00:32:04 <DrBacchus> yes, and it's getting boring.
00:32:29 <Diablo-D3> Heh.
00:32:39 <Diablo-D3> It is boring
00:33:00 <Diablo-D3> why dont we do something more fun. Like ...
00:33:04 <questionlp> anyway... i do have to say that higher-end ppc systems are a bit overpriced compared to their dual athlon or xeon counterparts
00:33:10 <Diablo-D3> Are semi-colons good for programming languages?
00:33:17 <phroggy> lol
00:33:25 <phroggy> what the hell kind of question is that?
00:33:52 * questionlp wonders if Diablo-D3 is a closet VBer trolling non-VB languages
00:34:13 <Diablo-D3> questionlp: dont insult me.
00:34:29 <questionlp> i'm not
00:35:01 <phroggy> ActiveState is showing off VisualPerl, a plugin for MS VisualStudio.NET
00:35:01 <Diablo-D3> Dont make me say perl is the best language ever created.
00:35:05 <phroggy> very nice IDE.
00:35:06 <Diablo-D3> Ill do it! I swear!
00:35:09 <Diablo-D3> ... hah!
00:35:14 <phroggy> Not that I'd use it...
00:35:23 <Diablo-D3> ActiveState is a little scary
00:35:46 <questionlp> Perl is the best language ever created.............. <-- only to perl zealots
00:36:02 <DrBacchus> language bigots suck
00:36:07 <Diablo-D3> questionlp: I am Larry Wall! ... no, not really.
00:36:30 <lilo> I like perl
00:36:30 <phroggy> Larry Wall should be here for book signing in half an hour.
00:36:40 * questionlp % use.perl
00:36:46 <questionlp> # core dump
00:36:47 <lilo> I'm not sure the earth moves, but I like perl
00:37:09 <Diablo-D3> Im like this... if it cant be coded in perl or c, then it shouldnt be coded.
00:37:20 <questionlp> lol
00:37:40 <questionlp> now if only marketers can be made to understand and follow that rule
00:38:18 <Diablo-D3> even larry agrees with me... perl is coded in c. ;)
00:38:23 <phroggy> hehe
00:38:37 <questionlp> better add parrot to that list too
00:38:40 <Diablo-D3> Hrm.
00:38:41 <phroggy> somebody asked me what language they should start with if they want to learn programming.
00:39:03 <DrBacchus> eiffel
00:39:06 <Diablo-D3> Dude, eventually, everything goes back to C.
00:39:06 <phroggy> I said C, because if you start with Perl, you'll never want to learn C, and you can't get a job programming in Perl.
00:39:16 <questionlp> or assembler ;)
00:39:56 <Diablo-D3> even C eventually goes back to C.
00:40:13 <questionlp> C <--> C
00:40:29 <Diablo-D3> questionlp: Im pretty sure its a one way trip.
00:40:35 <Diablo-D3> gcc is written in c.
00:40:38 <Diablo-D3> gcc compiles c.
00:40:59 <Diablo-D3> gcc can compile... gcc. which is written in c. which can compile c. which gcc is c, so gcc can compile itself......
00:41:20 <Diablo-D3> for(;;)
00:41:50 <phroggy> yeah, there's a name for that.
00:41:59 <phroggy> what's it called, when a compiler can compile itself?
00:42:03 <Diablo-D3> bootstrapping youreslf =P
00:42:10 <phroggy> ah..
00:42:15 <DrBacchus> incestuous compillation
00:42:19 <phroggy> haha
00:42:25 <Diablo-D3> hah
00:42:26 <phroggy> that's awesome.
00:43:31 <Diablo-D3> isnt the c++ part of gcc written in c?
00:46:21 * Diablo-D3 killed the channel.
00:46:37 <DrBacchus> Holy wars are boring.
00:46:52 <questionlp> naw... i was checking my work e-mail
00:47:04 <Diablo-D3> Damnit, I have to think of a non-boring topic
00:47:27 <DrBacchus> perhaps ... I dunno ... oscon?
00:47:28 <phroggy> who's going to the Stonehenge party?
00:47:29 <Diablo-D3> Blah, I wish I was at oscon
00:47:37 <questionlp> i'm not
00:47:41 <Diablo-D3> I could be asking larry wall for his autograph
00:47:49 <phroggy> hell yeah.
00:48:13 <DrBacchus> I have a camel that he signed for me a few years ago.
00:48:19 <questionlp> or stormy peters' :)
00:48:35 <Diablo-D3> DrBacchus: ... I hate you.
00:49:55 <Diablo-D3> heh.
00:50:10 <Diablo-D3> I wonder how much larry wall's autograph would be worth on ebay
00:50:31 <questionlp> too much?
00:50:33 * questionlp ducks
00:50:53 <Diablo-D3> I think you're right =P
00:51:25 <questionlp> at least until he's a dead white male :D
00:51:36 <DrBacchus> I wish people would let folks finish their talks, and not keep interrupting.
00:51:41 <DrBacchus> He has less than 10 minutes left.
00:51:43 <Diablo-D3> er...
00:51:49 <questionlp> ??
00:51:54 * Diablo-D3 almost misread that as dead white whale
00:51:58 <Diablo-D3> DrBacchus: who?
00:52:02 <questionlp> lol
00:52:11 <DrBacchus> Greg Stein. Subversion talk.
00:52:21 <questionlp> ah
00:52:22 <DrBacchus> People won't let him move on, and I'm starting to get really irritated.
00:52:32 <Diablo-D3> DrBacchus: heh, probably the audience is all cvs people
00:52:36 <questionlp> the oo.org talk almost ended up that way
00:52:54 <Diablo-D3> DrBacchus: dude, just stand up and say "Let greg finish and ask questions after!"
00:53:29 <DrBacchus> That's what session chair is for.
00:53:35 <DrBacchus> Of course, this session doesn't have one ...
00:53:40 <questionlp> it could be worse... a talk on bitkeeper
00:53:42 <Diablo-D3> then go beat the session chair with a cluebat =P
00:53:48 <questionlp> lol
00:53:53 <Diablo-D3> ... oh.
00:54:11 <Diablo-D3> questionlp: oh god
00:54:16 <Diablo-D3> thatd be ... very bad
00:54:21 <questionlp> yeah
00:55:12 <questionlp> i my POV... use the best tool for the job
00:55:16 <Diablo-D3> <questionlp> or stormy peters' :)
00:55:19 <Diablo-D3> ^ the hp person?
00:55:25 <questionlp> :)~
00:55:55 <questionlp> or Ceren Ecren... the BSD Daemon Booth Babe :)~~~~~~~~~~~~~
00:56:24 <Diablo-D3> yeah, you know your os rocks when you have booth babes
00:56:43 <questionlp> compared to some looney prof with a beanie :D
00:57:14 <phroggy> Stonehenge has some booth babes.
00:57:14 <DrBacchus> or that it doesn't because you have to have a booth babe to draw the customers in.
00:57:24 <Diablo-D3> Not to be mean to stormy, but "The Business and Economics of Open Source in the Enterprise" doesnt sound to interesting to me.
00:57:32 <Diablo-D3> It looks like a phb recruitment session
00:57:37 <Sp4wN> hello
00:57:44 <phroggy> well, I'm off.
00:57:48 <questionlp> Diablo-D3: heh...
00:57:50 <Diablo-D3> hi Sp4wN
00:57:57 <Diablo-D3> seeya phroggy
00:58:07 <Sp4wN> anyone in the IP Wars thingy atm?
00:58:13 <questionlp> but for people who are trying to get open source into a large company...
00:58:26 <questionlp> no... i didnt want to go to it
00:58:32 <Sp4wN> heh
00:58:32 <Diablo-D3> questionlp: I gladly dont have that problem =P
00:58:41 <questionlp> i dont either...
00:58:43 <Sp4wN> i wanted to but had nothing to do between noon and 4:30
00:58:51 <Diablo-D3> Actually, who am I kidding, I wish I had that problem.
00:58:52 <Sp4wN> so i went home
00:59:06 <questionlp> Sp4wN: you live in portland metro?
00:59:07 <Diablo-D3> jobs > *
00:59:11 * Sp4wN nods
00:59:18 <Sp4wN> I live in SE area
00:59:19 <questionlp> cool :)
00:59:24 <Diablo-D3> why does everyone live in portland?
00:59:25 <questionlp> beaverton here
00:59:27 <Sp4wN> im like the only 17 year old that signed up
00:59:28 <Sp4wN> lol
00:59:41 <questionlp> heh... i'm a 23 yo with a press pass :D
00:59:52 <Diablo-D3> hah
01:00:01 <Sp4wN> i bet im the only minor that went
01:00:02 <Sp4wN> =/
01:00:04 <questionlp> i dont think age matters
01:00:08 <Sp4wN> true
01:00:10 <Diablo-D3> age doesnt matter
01:00:18 <Diablo-D3> there are several kernel hackers our age
01:00:19 <questionlp> except if you want a beer :D
01:00:25 <Sp4wN> yeah
01:00:45 <Sp4wN> well i also felt kinda lonely since im one of the very few c++ programmers that went
01:00:53 <questionlp> ah
01:00:55 <Sp4wN> its like everyone is into the higher level stuff like php,perl,java
01:01:01 <Diablo-D3> bah, drinking is for lusers. If I wanna kill braincells, I code perl.
01:01:09 <questionlp> yeah... that's pretty much the focus lately
01:01:21 <Diablo-D3> heh
01:01:21 <questionlp> Diablo-D3: lol... i'm not much of a drinker either
01:01:33 <questionlp> higher level languages and drinking ;)
01:01:34 <Sp4wN> im actually gunna try out this eclipse sdk see how good it really is
01:01:34 <Diablo-D3> perl isnt "higher levle"
01:01:34 <Diablo-D3> its more specialized.
01:01:48 <questionlp> eclipse is pretty nice
01:01:55 <Sp4wN> i guess you could say it...perl has same kinda syntax as c/c++
01:02:05 <questionlp> but i don't need an entire ide for my php/python coding, so i use jedit
01:02:09 <Sp4wN> yeah
01:02:14 <Diablo-D3> Sp4wN: duh.
01:02:27 <Diablo-D3> I feel like an old man
01:02:29 <questionlp> even jedit is nice at java stuff too
01:02:38 <Diablo-D3> I use xemacs and a few terms as my ide.
01:02:41 <questionlp> Diablo-D3: how old? :)
01:02:45 <Sp4wN> haha...i just use plain ole emacs!
01:03:06 <Diablo-D3> questionlp: 19.
01:03:15 <questionlp> when i'm not at my unix machine... i have several putty windows with vim (or whatever editor) and a local copy of vim
01:03:34 <questionlp> Diablo-D3: you're too young to feel like an old man
01:03:35 <questionlp> :D
01:03:43 <Sp4wN> the only thing that sucks about not using a true ide is makefiles
01:03:48 <Sp4wN> i could never find an easy tutorial on makefiles
01:03:59 <questionlp> ture
01:04:03 <questionlp> er... true at that
01:04:05 <Diablo-D3> ...
01:04:11 <Diablo-D3> Sp4wN: autotools.
01:04:20 <Diablo-D3> if you arnt using autotools, then you arnt coding right.
01:04:21 <Sp4wN> automake you mean?
01:04:41 <Diablo-D3> automake is an autotools.
01:04:44 <Sp4wN> oh
01:04:45 <questionlp> or code scripts and tools that dont need a makefile ;)
01:04:45 <Diablo-D3> as is autoconf.
01:04:53 <Diablo-D3> and, for those library hackers, libtool.
01:05:07 <Sp4wN> so automake would make my makefile for me eh?
01:05:11 <Sp4wN> i should check it out
01:05:34 <Diablo-D3> well, duh.
01:05:36 <Diablo-D3> Thats the point of it
01:05:47 <questionlp> any good c/c++ book should cover some makefile writing
01:06:05 <Diablo-D3> no, only bad c/c++ books will
01:06:16 <edd> heh. automake is not without its pain, but it's well worth the pain
01:06:37 <Diablo-D3> Its not up to the c/c++ book to teach you things outside c/c++.
01:07:00 <Diablo-D3> I would be very angry at kernighan and ritchie if they put in a chapter for makefile writing.
01:07:11 <Diablo-D3> besides... autotools _has a book_ already.
01:09:01 <Diablo-D3> edd: automake is incredably useful, and its basically the standard on *nix
01:09:29 <edd> Diablo-D3: i know. i use it :)
01:09:52 <Diablo-D3> heh
01:09:57 <Diablo-D3> as do I.
01:12:20 <Sp4wN> omg
01:12:26 <questionlp> ?
01:12:27 <Diablo-D3> omg omg!
01:12:28 <Sp4wN> this hp cd they are giving out is junk
01:12:35 <Sp4wN> all it has are links
01:12:36 <questionlp> heh
01:12:37 <Diablo-D3> whats on it?
01:12:59 <Diablo-D3> is it a full sized cd?
01:13:02 <Sp4wN> yeah
01:13:08 <Diablo-D3> or a mini cd?
01:13:14 <Sp4wN> its got links to downloads and info
01:13:17 <Sp4wN> full sized
01:13:19 <Diablo-D3> full sized? wtf is wrong with them
01:13:23 <Sp4wN> i know
01:13:26 * Diablo-D3 beats with cluebat
01:14:36 <Sp4wN> its kinda like microsoft making WindowsME....you either create a whole operating system, or don't call it one
01:14:48 <questionlp> lol
01:15:05 <questionlp> Windows ME = Windows 98 3rd Edition = Windows 95 9th Edition :D
01:15:15 <Diablo-D3> hah
01:15:21 <Sp4wN> minus DOS
01:15:34 <questionlp> DOS is there... just hidden even more
01:15:41 <Sp4wN> but its emulated
01:16:02 <Diablo-D3> no
01:16:07 <Diablo-D3> windows me is still 9x
01:16:11 <questionlp> XP and 2K yes
01:16:13 <Sp4wN> really? i thought they tossed DOS
01:16:16 <questionlp> no
01:16:17 <Diablo-D3> dos is there just like on every other 9x.
01:16:19 <Sp4wN> well for ME
01:16:25 <Diablo-D3> NT is the one that needs a virtual dosbox.
01:16:30 <questionlp> Windows 9x/ME are all shells on top of a slightly modified DOS
01:16:33 <Sp4wN> i heard all ME had was a "shell" but wasn't really DOS
01:16:34 <Diablo-D3> (2k and xp being nt5)
01:16:41 <questionlp> yeah
01:16:48 <Diablo-D3> Sp4wN: no, its a real dosbox.
01:17:00 <Diablo-D3> well, as real as you can get, its still runing slightly virtualized.
01:17:01 <Sp4wN> but many dos based programs won't run on ME DOS
01:17:09 <Sp4wN> so technically it isn't dos
01:17:11 <Sp4wN> =/
01:17:18 <questionlp> that's because microsoft removed some components
01:17:22 <Diablo-D3> many dos based programs wont run on 9x at all
01:17:43 <questionlp> part of it is because dos programs want Real mode or it's own virtual mode
01:18:00 <questionlp> running a dos app under windows 9x/me means that the app runs in virtual mode
01:18:26 <questionlp> so you have to shut down windows down to the point of leaving DOS running.. then you can run those apps
01:18:34 <Diablo-D3> questionlp: not entirely true, 9x never had a full virtual mode
01:18:37 <questionlp> or boot into dos only
01:18:37 <Sp4wN> yeah i remember that...that was lame
01:18:47 <Sp4wN> i had to do that with Warcraft 2
01:18:48 <questionlp> yeah... true...
01:18:52 <Diablo-D3> questionlp: it was running on your machine, not in a virtual machine
01:19:03 <questionlp> well... protected mode
01:19:06 <questionlp> sorry...
01:19:28 <questionlp> i dunno why i mixed virtual with protected :P
01:21:03 <Diablo-D3> heh
01:21:28 <Diablo-D3> what I never liked is 9x couldnt snoop on the program, and provide virtual interfaces to windows devices
01:22:36 <Diablo-D3> like, no virtual sb16 interface, or no virtual com port interfaces, etc
01:23:00 <questionlp> yeah.
01:23:11 <Sp4wN> wow...i can work on different projects that use different languages at the same time in the same instance of eclipse
01:23:13 <Sp4wN> coooooool
01:23:20 <questionlp> windows 9x had some stupid restrictions and limitations alright
01:23:27 <questionlp> Sp4wN: yeah
01:23:45 <Diablo-D3> and to think of it, nt's virtual dosbox cant either
01:23:57 <questionlp> which is truly virtual
01:24:15 <questionlp> all because NT requires all hardware access to be done through a proxy: HAL
01:24:42 <Diablo-D3> questionlp: yeah, but Im saying virtual interfaces
01:25:00 <Diablo-D3> it emulates said hardware, then uses the HAL to access the real hardware
01:25:08 * questionlp nods
01:25:31 <Diablo-D3> dosemu can do that
01:26:16 <questionlp> now if only ms would use something very close to dosemu in xp/2k :D
01:26:57 <Diablo-D3> heh
01:27:04 <Diablo-D3> I wish dosemu could play older epic games
01:27:08 <Diablo-D3> like epic pinball
01:27:26 <questionlp> epic pinfall or one must fall :)~~~ loved those games
01:27:34 <Diablo-D3> yeah
01:28:00 <questionlp> now i want to play Scorched Earth (i have it at home) and The Incredible Machine
01:29:34 <questionlp> and backup files to a floppy QIC 120 tape drive ;)
01:31:36 <questionlp> well... i'm going to get ready and head home
01:31:47 <questionlp> traffic on hwy 26 ought to have died down a bit now
01:32:05 <questionlp> ttyl!
01:32:05 <Diablo-D3> seeya
01:32:13 <questionlp> have a good night
01:32:19 <Diablo-D3> you too
01:40:59 <BilldaCat> hello
01:41:33 <autrijus> hi BilldaCat !
01:41:51 <BilldaCat> hey aut :D
01:41:57 <autrijus> where are you at?
01:42:06 <BilldaCat> in my room, just got back from dinner.
01:42:07 <BilldaCat> you?
01:42:16 <autrijus> at the exhibit hall
01:42:19 <autrijus> having dinner
01:42:24 <BilldaCat> cool :)
01:43:49 <lilo> man, I'm tired
01:45:06 <BilldaCat> i'm a little tired too, dunno why. probably the food.
01:45:41 <BilldaCat> anyone else feel like going to see T3 tonight at some point? i like guns, and i hear it has a few of them
01:46:42 <Diablo-D3> heh
01:48:18 <autrijus> unfortunately i'm hosting one of the BOFs :(
01:48:36 <BilldaCat> what time?
01:49:18 <autrijus>http://oscon.kwiki.org/index.cgi?CpanBOF
01:49:19 <autrijus> 8pm
01:49:20 <dc_oscon> A: http://oscon.kwiki.org/index.cgi?CpanBOF from autrijus
01:49:35 <BilldaCat> i know people on the wiki talked about thurs night, but the dyndns party is thurs night, so i want to consume my free alcohol before i leave town, so i'd rather go tonight
01:49:53 <autrijus> k
01:50:18 <BilldaCat> ah, that's early. i was thinking of hitting a showing around 10 or so, wait till most of the con stuff gets out of the way, and see who wants to go then
01:57:26 <BilldaCat> windows is blowing up.. must reboo
01:57:27 <BilldaCat> t
02:04:26 <Sp4wN> heh...socket programming is a pain in the ass
02:11:04 <lilo> seems like tridge came up with a sockets library at some point that's kind of nice
02:11:26 <lilo> all I remember about it is that it was very simple to use
02:13:14 <Sp4wN> yeah im actually trying to figure out how to set a socket server to work over telnet
02:13:23 <Sp4wN> it seems to partially work but the formatting is all screwed up
02:16:38 <Sp4wN> wow when i use a linefeed, in telnet the line starts halfway across the next line so i gotta do a carridge return
02:16:53 <Sp4wN> i thought \n would do the whole shabang
02:32:25 <miguel3> welllwell well
03:21:12 <rjbs> anyone know what happened with some guy in the basement who was wheelchaired out of hhere?
03:22:14 <Acapnotic> That sounds scary. Wonder if the camera crew caught that.
03:23:10 <rjbs> derno
03:23:44 <BilldaCat> ?
03:23:51 <BilldaCat> what happened?
03:24:13 <rjbs> when I got down here, there werew 2304823 hotel employees
03:24:26 <rjbs> one guy was sitting on a chair, and a few people were around him, one half-kneeling and talking to him
03:24:32 <BilldaCat> wow
03:24:32 <rjbs> after a while a dude with a wheelchair showed up and took him
03:24:35 <rjbs> he looked fien to me
03:24:36 <rjbs> er, fine.
03:24:38 <BilldaCat> seizure?
03:24:39 <BilldaCat> hmm
03:25:16 <rjbs> mebbe
04:00:36 <kennyt> kennyt is now known as kennytz||zala
04:19:40 <BilldCat> BilldCat is now known as BilldaCatr
04:19:42 <BilldaCatr> err
04:19:46 <BilldaCatr> no r
04:22:46 <BilldaCatr> BilldaCatr is now known as BilldaCat
04:23:07 <BilldaCat> anyone know the name of that theatre up the street, and if it's playing T3 or not?
04:33:20 <Acapnotic> I think that's the Fox Tower
04:33:32 <Acapnotic> It's in the Regal Cinemas chain, I believe
04:34:51 <Acapnotic> the light rail also will get you to cinema at lloyd center mall and lloyd cinemas (two theatres, both Regal, close together) if it's not playing
04:35:28 <BilldaCat> ok, cool
04:35:29 <BilldaCat> thanks :)
04:35:42 <Improv_Away> Improv_Away is now known as Improv
04:35:54 <Improv> Mhh. Getting late at night
04:36:01 <BilldaCat> late? it's 9:30 :P
04:36:13 <Improv> Weel, the lab's closing soon
04:36:40 <BilldaCat> ahh
04:37:00 <Improv> And once it closes, well, there's nothing left for nonlocals to do :)
04:37:19 <Improv> At least, nothing left they can easily find out about :)
04:37:44 <BilldaCat> i'm going to go see a movie, anyone is welcome to join me. i need to find out showtimes
04:37:52 <Improv> What movie?
04:38:15 <BilldaCat> T3
04:38:21 <BilldaCat> i'm a big arnold fan, what can i say
04:49:07 <BilldaCat> anyway, i'm headed down to the lobby, anyone who wants to come, show up. i'll be the scruffy looking guy in the green/white shirt
04:57:33 <Improv> Argh, lab closes soon.
04:57:50 <Improv> If anyone has any ideas on what to do, please float them now while I'm still on IRC :)
04:59:10 <BilldaCat> i decided i'd rather drink than see a movie.. watching a bunch of people walk in with 6 packs changed my mind
04:59:27 * Improv never drinks...
04:59:31 <BilldaCat> (looks around) .. i wonder where everyone is
04:59:43 <Acapnotic> at the Stonehenge party
04:59:46 <BilldaCat> people have to be doing -something- tonight .. right?
05:00:14 <Improv> Oh well, back to the hotel room, I guess.
05:00:16 <BilldaCat> musta missed the memo about that.
05:00:33 <Improv> Later, tater
05:00:38 <Acapnotic> s'on the web site
05:00:39 <Improv> Improv is now known as Improv_Away
05:00:53 * BilldaCat looks
05:01:11 <BilldaCat> hrm
05:01:45 <BilldaCat> now that sounds like a good idea.
05:01:51 <BilldaCat> Stonehenge Consulting Services is proud to invite you to a night of dancing, free pool and free drinks
05:01:58 <BilldaCat> they had me at 'free'
05:02:38 <Diablo-D3> heh
05:11:42 <BilldaCat> i think i'm gonna try to catch the 10:30 bus if anyone wants to head over.
05:16:07 <Sp4wN> free means you wear their t-shirt
05:16:08 <Sp4wN> lol
05:16:22 <Diablo-D3> lol
07:15:23 <matchboy>http://pdxluggallery.tearitalldown.com/oscon2003/
07:15:24 <dc_oscon> B: http://pdxluggallery.tearitalldown.com/oscon2003/ from matchboy
07:16:17 <matchboy> B:| Pictures from July 9th, 2003 at the O'Reilly Open Source Confernece...of the Portland Linux User Group (PDXLUG) http://www.pdxlug.org
07:16:17 <dc_oscon> Titled item B.
07:17:16 <matchboy> B: About 50 pictures of our booth. We handed out PDXLUG Knoppix Cds and bookmarks to people. Come stop by on Thursday for a cd and/or bookmark! :-)
07:17:16 <dc_oscon> Added comment B1.
07:18:29 <matchboy>http://www.pdxlug.org/
07:18:29 <dc_oscon> C: http://www.pdxlug.org/ from matchboy
07:18:36 <matchboy> C: Portland Linux User Group
07:18:36 <dc_oscon> Added comment C1.
07:18:48 <matchboy> C:| Portland Linux User Group (PDXLUG)
07:18:48 <dc_oscon> Titled item C.
13:56:01 <kennytz||zala> kennytz||zala is now known as kennyt
14:08:20 * Diablo-D3 goes poof
14:42:00 <Improv_Away> Improv_Away is now known as Improv
15:36:43 <Malkuth> Malkuth is now known as Dybbuk
15:36:45 <Dybbuk> Woo!
16:08:35 <danese> 'morning
16:08:57 <Dybbuk> Good morning!
16:09:27 * Dybbuk for some reason doesn't feel like seeing the HP keynote after yesterday's blatent IBMvertisement keynote.
16:09:32 <edd> hi
16:09:35 <Dybbuk> Er, blatant.
16:09:49 <danese> So far its not really HP keynote as much as Open Source Primer
16:09:54 <edd> Hmm, it's quite interesting actually Dybbuk
16:10:11 <Dybbuk> Sure, ruin my moment of bitter self-righteousness!
16:10:14 <danese> This is the type of preso I do for folks who don't know OSS...is this keynote worthy news here?
16:10:25 <edd>http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2003/view/e_sess/3784
16:10:26 <dc_oscon> D: http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2003/view/e_sess/3784 from edd
16:10:42 <edd> D:|The Business and Economics of Open Source in the Enterprise
16:10:42 <dc_oscon> Titled item D.
16:10:48 <DrBacchus> danese: ah, so I picked a good one to work through?
16:10:48 <edd> D:Stormy Peters keynote
16:10:49 <dc_oscon> Added comment D1.
16:12:01 <edd> D:talking about the decisions and consequences for companies open sourcing their software
16:12:01 <dc_oscon> Added comment D2.
16:13:27 <vdv> "you might not open source just because it's cool technology" ?
16:13:53 <spaceman> "might not"
16:13:55 <autrijus> that's correct.
16:14:07 <lilo> hey autrijus, hi all
16:14:18 <spaceman> spaceman is now known as SteveMallett
16:14:24 <autrijus> yo people
16:18:11 <danese> Wow - massive late influx...were you guys at the party really late or something?
16:18:20 <lilo> danese: local wallops announce :)
16:18:32 <lilo> danese: miscellaneous interested people 8)
16:18:58 * jeremyp is guilty of reading the wallops and just coming in to see what's going on
16:19:14 <lilo> jeremyp: np :)
16:19:22 * lilo takes a deep breath,
16:19:27 <vnc> yep....
16:19:41 <vnc> wallops apparently work
16:19:51 <lilo> hi jeremyp, hypercooljake, vnc , Pyramide, sya, soxie, joe-, kester :)
16:19:57 <kester> i'd like to thank stonehenge for the mild hangover ;)
16:19:59 <skvidal> hi joe-
16:19:59 <soxie> ello :)
16:20:08 <joe-> hi skvidal :)
16:20:10 <lilo> heya elihu
16:20:17 <hypercooljake> hi
16:20:21 <elihu> mornin'
16:21:27 <edd> HP have thoroughly thought through their open source strategy.
16:21:43 <skvidal> edd: why do you say that?
16:22:22 <edd> Well, the presenter is explaining their strategy and approach right now.
16:22:29 <skvidal> edd: I'm not there
16:22:33 <skvidal> I'm far far away
16:22:34 <lilo> hey Dekkard
16:22:45 <Dekkard> greetings
16:22:50 <skvidal> you're talking about stormy's talk, right?
16:22:52 <lilo> skvidal: maybe we can find someone who's taken notes :)
16:22:55 <skvidal> she's gnome foundation, right?
16:23:03 <danese> I'm taking notes
16:23:10 <lilo> danese: great
16:23:12 <skvidal> lilo: too bad there isn't a cnn-irc like channel for oscon :)
16:23:14 <edd> Yes, this is Stormy's presentation.
16:23:17 <elihu> Stormy gave a good presentation at the oscamp, too.
16:23:21 <joe-> skvidal: you'll be here in spirit later today :)
16:23:28 <skvidal> joe-: probably not
16:23:31 * edd hopes danese will port them online and share the url :)
16:23:35 <joe-> hehe
16:23:43 <lilo> danese: did you find a spot for that file of yours?
16:23:47 <danese> But I have to say, I've been doing much the same presentation (I mean, nearly exactly the same words) for like 4 years (and for competing company of course)
16:23:56 <joe-> skvidal: I'm going to put a picture of you up ;P
16:23:57 <lilo> danese: if you need space, let me know
16:23:58 <danese> Yeah - Gina Blaber took it
16:24:03 <lilo> ah, good
16:24:04 <skvidal> joe-: you need help
16:24:20 <skvidal> :)
16:24:23 <edd>http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/3468
16:24:24 <dc_oscon> E: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/3468 from edd
16:24:35 <joe-> skvidal: yeah, and it's all your fault ;P
16:24:56 <edd> E:|Robert Kay on Tim O'Reilly's keynote from yesterday
16:24:56 <dc_oscon> Titled item E.
16:25:41 <danese> Good question from Tim - because the content wasn't that new to this crowd
16:26:01 <Dekkard> will anyone be discussing the new japanese embedded linux consortium in the context of opensource in business and or daryl McBribes trip to japan?
16:26:29 <DrBacchus> What was Tim's question?
16:26:49 <edd>http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/network/2003/07/09/photos1.html?page=13
16:26:49 <dc_oscon> F: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/network/2003/07/09/photos1.html?page=13 from edd
16:27:03 <edd> F:|Microsoft-sponsored lunches
16:27:03 <dc_oscon> Titled item F.
16:27:12 <edd> F:The number of MS people here is interesting.
16:27:12 <dc_oscon> Added comment F1.
16:27:28 <edd> F:+[lunches|http://www.oreillynet.com/network/2003/07/09/graphics/3-13.jpg]
16:27:28 <dc_oscon> Added comment F2.
16:27:43 <edd> F:(photo D. Story/J. Blanchard/O'Reilly Network.)
16:27:43 <dc_oscon> Added comment F3.
16:27:53 <danese> Generally asking what this audience might be interested in
16:30:12 <elihu> that's a strangly scary picture
16:30:24 <qmacro> F:The title on th
16:30:24 <dc_oscon> Added comment F4.
16:30:52 <qmacro> F4:""
16:30:53 <dc_oscon> Deleted comment F4.
16:31:16 <edd> derrick story on stage, announcing winners of ORA MacOS X innovators contents
16:31:18 <edd> s/contents/contest/
16:31:54 <qmacro> F:The original caption is "Microsoft to go". I thought that was an interesting choice of phrase
16:31:54 <dc_oscon> Added comment F4.
16:32:07 <edd> this time it's not just open to US developers.
16:32:26 <lilo> "Where do you want to go today?" "To an open source conference."
16:32:38 <edd> one winner is something called "Launch Bar" apparently
16:32:53 <edd> winner is Hydra
16:33:07 <edd> oddly, there's an International category and a US developers category
16:33:17 <edd> how peculiar to have separate categories!
16:33:22 <edd> US category, 2nd place: Audio Hijack Pro
16:34:02 <skvidal> edd: maybe the prize money is from the dod :)
16:34:09 * edd misses the exact name of the US winning piece of s/w
16:34:18 <lilo> hey Chris
16:34:25 <Chris61vw> howdy sir
16:35:54 <Chris61vw> any interesting news?
16:36:21 <collord> did the openoffice groupware announcement come out yesterday or today?
16:37:05 <mdubinko> New punctuation: Linux'
16:37:20 <edd> Mitch Kapor up
16:37:23 <mdubinko> language_evolution++
16:37:28 <edd> he's not talking about Chadler
16:37:31 <edd> but on linux on the desktop
16:37:33 <skvidal> linux on the desktop
16:37:49 <edd> mdubinko: it's actually correct punctuation. fussy, but correct.
16:38:05 <edd>http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2003/view/e_sess/4307
16:38:05 <dc_oscon> G: http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2003/view/e_sess/4307 from edd
16:38:29 <edd> G:|Linux' journey to the mainstream desktop, Mitch Kapor
16:38:29 <dc_oscon> Titled item G.
16:38:42 <edd> G:his slides have a slightly different title from that in the program and on the web site
16:38:42 <dc_oscon> Added comment G1.
16:49:46 <skvidal> anything interesting in his talk?
16:50:38 <edd> he's talking generally about linux getting to the desktop
16:50:42 <joe-> skvidal: he's talking about how linux on the desktop will work itself from the edges in, but nothing ground breaking...
16:50:42 <qmacro> mitch is talking about linux adoption strategies and phases
16:50:44 <edd> saying it's made it for technical users like us
16:50:58 <edd> saying the next step is to get it to "transactional workers"
16:51:01 <edd> call centers, etc.
16:51:10 <skvidal> gotcha
16:51:35 <edd> cost factors low, easy customisation and able to run a small set of apps
16:51:46 <edd> easily lock downable to specific target applications
16:51:54 * qmacro is reminded of the thin client movement
16:52:08 * SteveMallett agrees with qmacro
16:52:19 <edd> stage 3, consumers. "i think it's going to be a while". doesn't think adoption will start before 2007
16:52:19 <qmacro> we *will* return to mainframe days (I hope!)
16:52:29 <jerenkrantz> what about us mac users? ;-)
16:52:43 <edd> "even though OOo is really good it's not as good as MS Office"
16:52:47 <edd> "file compatibility isn't 100%"
16:52:52 <edd> danese: any comment to that?
16:53:39 <edd> showing a "report card", grading Linux on the desktop
16:53:41 <edd> The desktop: B
16:53:46 <edd> Desktop developer platform: C-
16:53:47 <danese> Well, I spoke for a long time with Bart as he worked on this talk...it is his feeling that OpenOffice.org isn't there yet...he said he was "happy to get back to Microsoft Office" on the Mac
16:54:08 <edd> Hardware support: Computer (B-) Peripherals (D)
16:54:14 <edd> Applications C+, Windows connectivity A
16:54:23 <skvidal> danese: how much longer will he have ms office on the mac?
16:54:41 <jerenkrantz> skvidal: not much.
16:55:00 <skvidal> and mac office to windows office isn't guaranteed 100% compat either
16:55:14 <danese> skvidal: that was my response at the time
16:55:16 <qmacro> it seems to me that apps like Chandler are interesting in that they run on both platforms; the problem with moving from e.g. MS-Office to OOo is (regardless of which is "better") there's no consistency in transition
16:55:19 <jerenkrantz> powerpoint always crashes for me when i'm editing my presentations. keynote is a bit better...not perfect...
16:55:35 <skvidal> keynote isn't any better
16:55:42 <skvidal> it still suffers from the file format problem
16:55:43 <jerenkrantz> doesn't crash
16:55:53 <jerenkrantz> what file format problem?
16:55:58 <skvidal> unless it imports ppt 'perfectly' it suffers from the same problem
16:56:06 <skvidal> and keynote is no better b/c its tied to one platform
16:56:07 <qmacro> so if you can introduce apps that are OS-independent to your (MS) users first, changing the carpet is easier later
16:56:11 <danese> also have to point out that Java (yes, I know its not Open Source ;-( ) tries to create consistency across ALL platforms for application-layer development
16:56:19 <jerenkrantz> i guess i'm more concerned about *writing* presentations.
16:56:25 <skvidal> danese: python does it too
16:56:27 <skvidal> and it's open source
16:56:33 <edd>http://www.ometer.com/hardware.html
16:56:33 <dc_oscon> H: http://www.ometer.com/hardware.html from edd
16:56:46 <skvidal> jerenkrantz: I'm a sysadmin - my people are concerned with taking a presentation on a cd somewhere and being able to show it
16:56:47 <edd> H:|Making Hardware Just Work
16:56:48 <dc_oscon> Titled item H.
16:56:52 <edd> H:by Havoc Pennington
16:56:52 <dc_oscon> Added comment H1.
16:57:03 <skvidal> keynote isn't gonna fly in 90% of the locations
16:57:08 <skvidal> b/c they won't have macs
16:57:11 <edd> H:referenced by Kapor when talking about Linux desktop hardware support.
16:57:12 <dc_oscon> Added comment H2.
16:57:21 <edd> huh? kapor claims linux bad for asian sites.
16:57:25 <jerenkrantz> skvidal: *shrug* it exports to PDF just fine. quicktime and PPT as well
16:57:31 <skvidal> edd: flash supports
16:57:32 * edd 's linux desktop has way better i18n support than windows
16:57:44 <skvidal> jerenkrantz: can pdf do animations?
16:58:04 <lilo> I guess if we need to improve, we need to improve....I'm happy enough with OOo, but I tend to be pretty flexible
16:58:10 <edd> anothe report card: the eco-system
16:58:15 <skvidal> and exchanging docs to collaborate with others ties you to a single format even in keynote
16:58:19 <edd> Distros, A-, desktop platforms, A-
16:58:35 <edd> developers, B, ISVs, D, OEMs, C, Distribution channels, D
16:58:40 <jerenkrantz> skvidal: who collaborates in powerpoint? that's silly. imho.
16:58:40 <edd> Consortia, A, News and support, C
16:59:21 <skvidal> jerenkrantz: knowledge workers do
16:59:40 <skvidal> jerenkrantz: academics do it all the time
17:00:07 * qmacro collaborated (remotely) on joint presentation using Wiki (and presented using Wiki). Worked very well.
17:00:41 * vdv is writing all his presentation using a wiki too
17:00:57 <skvidal> and I think all of us in this channel represent the 'technically savvy'
17:01:21 <Dybbuk> Except me.
17:01:39 <Dybbuk> I represent the "technically cheap".
17:01:55 <qmacro> "technically cheap"?
17:02:12 <edd> G:[start of chat about Mitch's talk|http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/oscon/2003-07-10.html#T16-38-05]
17:02:12 <dc_oscon> Added comment G2.
17:03:00 <edd> mitch talking about poor state of integration of network resources like webdav into the filesystem
17:03:00 <lilo> probably wiki's are not "high-level" enough for most current Windows users
17:03:08 * edd agrees, that's a big lack
17:03:12 <joe-> cool, he just quoted havoc
17:03:13 <edd> another Havoc quote
17:03:16 <edd> havoc rocks
17:04:05 <jerenkrantz> we've been using wiki's in our research group.
17:04:16 <lilo> it's an elegant approach
17:04:22 <mdubinko> mitch++
17:04:37 <edd> ROW (rest of world) leads US in Linux desktop adoption
17:04:45 <lilo> definitely
17:04:45 * edd notes ROW should be MOW, "most of world" :-)
17:04:51 * lilo nods at edd
17:07:06 <edd>http://opensector.org/
17:07:07 <dc_oscon> I: http://opensector.org/ from edd
17:07:16 <edd> I:|OpenSector
17:07:17 <dc_oscon> Titled item I.
17:07:26 <edd> I:*Open Source, Public Sector, Good News*
17:07:26 <dc_oscon> Added comment I1.
17:07:31 <danese> opensector is cool
17:07:43 <edd> I:"where public sector decision makers meet the people, projects and principles of the open source software (OSS) movement so they can deliver the benefits of free software to their constituents â and where OSS developers and organizations can find opportunities and advocate for adoption of free software."
17:07:43 <dc_oscon> Added comment I2.
17:08:09 <skvidal> jerenkrantz: one additional thing - keynote doesn't help for open source desktops at all.
17:09:54 <edd>http://blogs.osafoundation.org/mitch/000272.html#000272
17:09:55 <dc_oscon> J: http://blogs.osafoundation.org/mitch/000272.html#000272 from edd
17:10:03 <joe-> skvidal: it's being taped so I'm sure it'll be up some where btw
17:10:08 <edd> J:|Mitch Kapor's blog entry on his talk today
17:10:09 <dc_oscon> Titled item J.
17:10:13 <Dybbuk> Ok, I am going to go hunt for more schwag.
17:10:17 <edd> J:link to PDF of of the talk
17:10:17 <dc_oscon> Added comment J1.
17:10:21 <Dybbuk> See y'all later.
17:15:34 <kalleth> hmm
17:15:42 <kalleth> can someone please tell me why i'm here? :/
17:16:11 <skvidal> kalleth: depends on your religion, I think.
17:16:20 <skvidal> :)
17:17:14 <edd> *break*
17:27:26 * Improv yawns
17:29:24 <jeremyp> Hmm, did the conference leave us? (all those broken connections from 65.121.82.178)
17:37:56 * vdv is making a first attempt to understand "the philosophy of Ruby"...
17:38:42 * Improv is racking his brain trying to remember the name of that text-based newsreader
17:39:33 <kester> NNTP?
17:39:41 <Improv> NNTP is the protocol
17:42:18 <vdv> The room is much too small for the ruby presentation!
17:45:14 <kalleth> lol
17:47:03 <lilo> hey greed, DanielSmith, plugh
17:47:38 <ducky> BTW, if anyone was looking for the paper Mitch Kapor mentioned in the keynote -- it wasn't off our home page right when he said it was, but it is now, or go directly at www.osafoundation.org/desktop-linux-overview.pdf
17:47:49 <ducky> err "our" = "OSAF's"
17:49:15 <lilo> fantastic, thanks
17:52:06 <Improv> Improv is now known as Improv_Away
17:55:09 <lilo> hey ruaok
17:55:23 <ruaok> hey.
18:14:35 <ruaok> Does anyone know where Louisa Young is?
18:14:47 <ruaok> An O'Reilly person came into this session looking for her...
18:24:33 <questionlp> hello
18:28:18 <vdv>http://www.ruby-lang.org/~matz/slides/oscon2003/index.html
18:28:19 <dc_oscon> K: http://www.ruby-lang.org/~matz/slides/oscon2003/index.html from vdv
18:28:28 <vdv> K:|The power and philosohy of Ruby (Yukihiro Matsumoto)
18:28:28 <dc_oscon> Titled item K.
18:39:21 <DrBacchus> Hi, gstein
18:39:26 <gstein> hey hey!
18:39:31 <questionlp> hello
18:39:32 <gstein> in Justin's talk right now
18:39:41 <DrBacchus> gstein: I have transcripts for you. I forgot to email them to you.
18:39:46 <Schuyler> hello Cleveland
18:40:01 <gstein> DrBacchus: yes... I was hoping to get those. thx.
18:40:57 <DrBacchus> gstein: sent
18:41:21 <gstein> thx!
18:42:31 <gstein>http://subversion.tigris.org/webdav-usage.html
18:42:31 <dc_oscon> L: http://subversion.tigris.org/webdav-usage.html from gstein
18:42:40 <sanxiyn> vdv: I agree 100% English speakers are lucky.
18:43:00 <sanxiyn> Unfair, but such is a life.
18:45:05 <DrBacchus> This is kinda cool stuff. I wonder why I've been ignoring it so far.
18:45:41 <gstein> DrBacchus: hmm?
18:45:57 * DrBacchus is still using cvs. (Hangs head in shame.)
18:46:23 <Morbus> i still use cvs.
18:46:26 <Morbus> never used webdav.
18:46:27 <Morbus> not once.
18:46:29 <sanxiyn> You mean, SVN?
18:46:47 <sanxiyn> Subversion's nice.
18:46:48 <DrBacchus> Yeah. I'm in justin's svn talk.
19:11:51 <raelity___> raelity___ is now known as raelity
19:12:24 <Morbus> hey raelity.
19:12:29 <raelity> hey morbs
19:12:32 <raelity> quiet channel
19:12:38 <questionlp> yep
19:12:41 <Morbus> yeah, has been.
19:12:43 <Morbus> kinda through me.
19:12:49 <raelity> odd
19:13:00 <raelity> are there other places osconites are hanging?
19:13:16 <rjbs> raelity: real or fake places?
19:13:18 <questionlp> irc.develoopers.org (or .com, can't remember) #oscon
19:13:18 <Morbus> threw me, rather.
19:13:22 <edd> there's irc.develooper.com/#oscon
19:13:26 <edd> it's noisy in here during keynotes
19:13:36 <questionlp> yeah
19:13:38 <edd> but quiet during other sessions
19:13:48 <questionlp> develoopers/#oscon can be quite noisy too
19:14:00 <raelity> hey edd
19:14:03 <raelity> where are you?
19:14:17 <edd> in the web services panel thingy
19:14:22 <raelity> me too
19:14:30 <raelity> front, back, middle, left, right
19:14:38 <edd> behind you, back left
19:14:44 <Morbus> heh, heh.
19:15:08 <raelity> nice shirt
19:15:19 <raelity> haven't seen you in donkey's years
19:15:43 <edd> raelity: lol, it's the same shirt i always wear at conferences
19:15:48 <Morbus> now, this is really funny.
19:15:58 <edd> i had a much meaner shirt to wear, but i have a meeting this afternoon which wearing that shirt might prejudice
19:16:07 <Morbus> what's the shirt say?
19:16:16 <raelity> morbus: you mean two guys discussing outfits within feet of one-another over the internet?
19:16:19 <edd> "i liked you better before you sold out"
19:16:22 <Morbus> raelity: yeah :)
19:16:30 <Morbus> buit, then again, i've never been to a con.
19:16:33 <Morbus> so that could be normal.
19:16:36 <Morbus> i'm not a people person ;)
19:16:44 <questionlp> Morbus: same here
19:17:00 <raelity> morbus: but you're one heck of a virtual people person
19:17:14 <edd> This debate is hard to track, get a hold of really.
19:17:15 <Morbus> raelity: aww, thanks :)
19:17:21 * edd struggles to link it to open source.
19:17:26 <questionlp> it's easier to be a virtual people person than a real people person myself
19:20:27 <Morbus> hey DrB.
19:21:19 <DrBacchus> Hi, Morbus
19:24:36 <edd> *lunch*
19:27:00 <DrBacchus> Microsoft++ # Free as in lunch
19:27:09 <dajobe> but beware the shrink wrap
19:27:42 <dngor> TANSTAAFL
19:28:13 <lilo> I'm still thinking that eating Microsoft's lunch is a perfectly valid thing to want to do ;)
19:28:27 <DrBacchus> heh
19:29:05 <greed> ...
19:29:25 <questionlp> lilo: so long as it comes back up at microsoft? :D:D:D
19:34:09 <DanielSmith> I balanced it by drinking Stonehenge water
19:34:22 <questionlp> :D
19:39:39 <Morbus> hey katie.
19:39:44 <Morbus> you've the same name as my gf.
19:39:47 <Morbus> are you as cute? picture please!
19:40:05 <questionlp> lol
19:40:13 <Morbus> i'm like, super suave.
19:40:13 <dajobe> careful now
19:40:14 <Morbus> <g>
19:40:15 <Improv_Away> Improv_Away is now known as Improv
19:40:22 <questionlp> hey Improv
19:40:32 * Improv wonders how long Morbus will still have a gf :)
19:40:34 <Improv> Hey all
19:40:39 <Morbus> heh, hey Improv :)
19:40:52 <questionlp> no gf or so here
19:41:21 * Improv on the other hand, has no s.o., so could attempt suavity if he were so inclined
19:41:26 <questionlp> heh... there's a game of go going on in the lobby
19:41:41 <questionlp> hello steve
19:41:44 <Morbus> after discovering who "katie" is:
19:41:48 <Morbus> [15:41] <@Morbus> i'm wooing someone important.
19:42:05 <holdenweb> questionlp: talling to me?
19:42:11 <questionlp> yep :)
19:42:14 <holdenweb> ^ll^lk^
19:42:25 <holdenweb> and u would b?
19:42:39 <questionlp> linh... i was in your network programming with python tutorial
19:42:51 <holdenweb> Cool! Having a good conference?
19:42:56 <questionlp> pretty good
19:43:03 * Improv ponders getting another FSF Tshirt
19:43:21 <holdenweb> Great. I had a call from a customer, so I've ended up doing some programming :-(
19:43:35 <holdenweb> AAP was my first session after the State of the Union!
19:43:53 <questionlp> heh
19:44:01 * Improv wonders if it would be taboo to get another MS lunch
19:44:03 <holdenweb> Did you enjoy the tutorial?
19:44:06 <katie> katie is Katie Parlante, with OSAF
19:44:07 <Improv> 1 of them wasn't enough to fill me up
19:44:31 <questionlp> holdenweb: i really enjoyed it
19:44:40 <questionlp> i primarily use smtplib at work
19:44:41 <holdenweb> Improv: you can have mine, I'm not eating the MS lunch today!
19:45:01 <katie> Morbus: I think I've had this conversation with you before
19:45:04 <Improv> holden: w00t!
19:45:22 <holdenweb> questionlp: thanks. Did you fill in a feedback form for O'Reilly?
19:45:28 <Morbus> katie: probably. heh, heh.
19:45:33 <Morbus> you code chandler?
19:45:33 <questionlp> but playing around with sending messages via python would be nice for debugging apps remotely ;)
19:45:43 <questionlp> holdenweb: yep.
19:45:58 <katie> morbus: yes
19:46:04 <holdenweb> qlp: thanks!
19:46:18 <katie> morbus: no wooing, though, I'm married :)
19:46:18 <questionlp> np... thanks and great job on the tutorial
19:46:34 <Morbus> katie: i'll try to remember for next time. i need to hang out in the same places you do for it to stick.
19:47:17 <holdenweb> questionlp: thanks again, and you've got a URL for the creosote code in your notes. Mail me if you have any problems.
19:48:21 <questionlp> mmm... http://starship.python.net/crew/jbauer/creosote/
19:48:33 <questionlp> it's one that i have for the creosote code :D
19:50:52 <holdenweb> That's right!
19:51:02 * holdenweb is breaking for lunch but lurking
20:03:54 <don-o> hello oscon'ers
20:04:25 <Improv> olleh :o-nod
20:04:27 <questionlp> hello don-o
20:06:00 <questionlp> hey BilldaCat
20:06:08 <BilldaCat> heya
20:06:53 <questionlp> how goes?
20:07:17 <BilldaCat> eh, the usual :) trying to decide what to do
20:07:26 <questionlp> :)
20:07:41 <questionlp> i think i'm going to the ogg vorbis/helix session after the lunch break
20:08:00 <BilldaCat> i'm going to the php under attack one, but it's not till 2:30
20:08:48 <questionlp> i'm thinking about going to that one
20:09:04 <questionlp> it's the 5:15 one that i'm split on
20:09:11 <questionlp> either php5 or the tickmaster one
20:09:52 <BilldaCat> yeah
20:09:56 <BilldaCat> i'm leaning towards php5
20:10:03 <questionlp> ditto
20:18:23 <Improv> Improv is now known as Improv_Away
20:23:12 <elihu> From Jeremy Zawodny's blog: Matz liked Perl's text processing but didn't think that Python was OO enough.
20:23:24 <elihu> I thought Python had really good OO.
20:23:49 <itamar> yep
20:24:01 <itamar> but, depends how you define "OO"
20:34:32 <don-o> is anyone in one of the sessions?
20:41:03 * qmacro is sitting in the Jabber Jazz session which is just about to get started
20:42:22 <Morbus> qmacro: transcribe!
20:45:47 <qmacro> Morbus: can't type fast enuf
20:45:50 <qmacro> :-/
20:46:02 <Morbus> qmacro: find five other people.
20:46:07 <Morbus> each person will type every fifth word.
20:46:11 <qmacro> Dave Smith (dizzyd) is going to tell us about the latest thing happening in the Jabber world
20:46:30 <qmacro> basic info about jabber - what it is, background, history, and so on
20:47:32 <qmacro> dizzyd apologises for (mentioning) SIP
20:48:26 <itamar> hee hee
20:48:37 <spaceman> anyone in the emerging tech lightning talks?
20:48:47 <spaceman> spaceman is now known as SteveMallett
20:49:06 <questionlp> nope
20:49:14 <questionlp> :)
20:49:20 <questionlp> at least not me
20:49:39 <DrBacchus> yes
20:49:42 <DrBacchus> that's where I am
20:50:43 <qmacro> "Rumblings" slide is displayed: bulletpoints include Chandler
20:50:52 <qmacro> (Chandler uses jabberpy - whoo!)
20:52:24 <DanielSmith> Hydra doc for JabberJazz.. join in y'all
20:53:10 <qmacro>http://www.jabberstudio.org/projects/sluice/project/view.php
20:53:11 <dc_oscon> M: http://www.jabberstudio.org/projects/sluice/project/view.php from qmacro
20:53:30 <qmacro> M|Sluice - workflow on top of Jabber
20:53:56 <qmacro> M:|Sluice - workflow on top of Jabber
20:53:56 <dc_oscon> Titled item M.
20:56:53 <Sp4wN> any c++ programmers in here at the moment?
20:57:36 <Sp4wN> i can't figure out how to make this legal: if(istream >> variable)
20:59:57 <coderman> yeah
21:00:45 <Sp4wN> how wold i go about doing that? should i use some kinda timer?
21:01:00 <coderman> you are waiting for user input?
21:01:12 <Sp4wN> well i DON'T want to wait for user input
21:01:19 <Sp4wN> but allow for it
21:01:44 <coderman> ah, thats tricky. you basically need to set stdin to non blocking, and use unbuffered terminal I/O.
21:02:01 <Sp4wN> well im actually using sockets
21:02:02 <Sp4wN> =/
21:02:07 <Sp4wN> so that would be different
21:02:13 <coderman> so that a read without data will not block, and also so that you can capture specific variables
21:02:16 <coderman> hrmmm
21:02:17 <Sp4wN> but the client is telnet...could that be the problem?
21:02:54 <Sp4wN> cause i know MUDS use telnet as a client so there's gotta be a way for that to happen
21:03:06 <coderman> yeah, they tweak terminal modes
21:03:13 <Sp4wN> oh
21:03:29 <itamar> and use event loop
21:04:02 <coderman> if you look at curses or any other event handling text interface you will see that they all use non blocking I/O and poll for input (often NOT line buffered, but character by character)
21:04:20 <coderman> you may have to use something like curses to do what you want nicely.
21:04:27 <Sp4wN> you mean like getch() and getche()?
21:05:18 <coderman> sort of, those require some cooperation for the terminal as well. if your terminal is line buffered and you try using getch() the results will be disappointing :-)
21:05:32 <coderman> its been a long time since i've messed with character input in c++ though ...
21:05:38 <Sp4wN> oh
21:07:26 <Sp4wN> ncurses should work too?
21:07:30 <coderman> yup
21:08:57 <shaheenb> w
21:10:26 <shaheenb> does someone have a does someone have a url for note from the Embracing and Extending RT session?
21:10:38 <shaheenb> a problem typing too...
21:10:51 <shaheenb> just me it seems...
21:17:12 <coderman> doh, lost an AP
21:17:14 <coderman> hehehe
21:26:00 <shaheenb> hrmm... trackback doesn't have anything on rt either.....
21:40:21 * lilo looks in
21:40:27 <lilo> how are things going? :)
21:45:59 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> heheheheheheeheheheheh niggazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
21:46:01 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> heheheheheheeheheheheh niggazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
21:46:01 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> heheheheheheeheheheheh niggazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
21:46:01 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> heheheheheheeheheheheh niggazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
21:46:02 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> heheheheheheeheheheheh niggazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
21:46:02 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> heheheheheheeheheheheh niggazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
21:46:02 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> heheheheheheeheheheheh niggazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
21:46:04 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> heheheheheheeheheheheh niggazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
21:46:06 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> heheheheheheeheheheheh niggazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
21:46:08 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> heheheheheheeheheheheh niggazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
21:46:10 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> heheheheheheeheheheheh niggazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
21:46:12 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> heheheheheheeheheheheh niggazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
21:46:14 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> heheheheheheeheheheheh niggazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
21:46:17 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> heheheheheheeheheheheh niggazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
21:46:18 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> heheheheheheeheheheheh niggazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
21:46:20 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> heheheheheheeheheheheh niggazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
21:46:22 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> heheheheheheeheheheheh niggazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
21:46:24 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> heheheheheheeheheheheh niggazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
21:46:26 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> heheheheheheeheheheheh niggazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
21:46:28 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> heheheheheheeheheheheh niggazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
21:46:30 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> heheheheheheeheheheheh niggazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
21:46:32 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> heheheheheheeheheheheh niggazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
21:46:34 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> heheheheheheeheheheheh niggazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
21:46:45 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> .-------------------------------.
21:46:45 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> | 1 .d888b. ONE|
21:46:45 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> | d8' )8b INTERNET CLUEPON |
21:46:45 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> | ' .d8P' good for |
21:46:45 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> | 88' One *FREE* Clue |
21:46:46 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> | |
21:46:48 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> |ONE 88 1|
21:46:50 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> `-------------------------------'
21:48:08 * bear_ gives the cluepon to jkl3h5oil2j3oi seeing as he seems to need it more than him
21:48:24 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> _oI<LIKE>=vo__
21:48:24 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> ?/$="'" """^SATAN$~\
21:48:24 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> .&?/' `""$$,
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21:48:28 <holdenweb> most amusing ;-)
21:48:29 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> ,Td' `&:`H' "&7, .__
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21:48:39 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> `b?\ 9/? ??H, |L *b.,'"\ :$:& H]'
21:48:41 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> `b$\o. */\. ??*b. 9. `\\:(| .,/$6d' |\T
21:48:43 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> ``\Z\\ `\7b. ,To?&b. \(\:-.-S:-~=-"'',P MJ'
21:48:45 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> `\?*b ?&&\. d\|<_ `\o_ `&&M\:SATAN>\IS,&' |LT
21:48:47 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> `\?\\ ``\?\^I/HATE@:~:$=v\. `$k<MY&PAL@%#J' HJ'
21:48:49 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> `\?\. `\b/$KIDS!-?&<?::P\\ `"^-^-?b=Sd' |\T
21:48:51 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> _o~=~$&$>==v\.??\, `\d `\$$'9P'I-LOVE=SATAN\/$$~?$\ ,R/
21:48:53 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> /$?~^'"""""`"\\&&< ?b "`~$P:c: /v==v,#::?<<&:'T| d$/'
21:49:05 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> FAT POO
21:50:04 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> .*'~~^^^~~'*.
21:50:04 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> .` `.
21:50:04 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> / \
21:50:04 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> | :'^'. .'^'; |
21:50:04 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> { `._.' `._.' |
21:50:05 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> { /\ }
21:50:07 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> `! !'
21:50:09 <jkl3h5oil2j3oi> `*._ _.*`
21:51:24 * bear_ thanks the wonderful people of freenode for that mighty fast response
21:51:30 <dmwaters> heh
21:52:46 <bear_> it was interesting ascii art - just not very polite
21:53:05 <spaceman> is there a way to not receive floods like that?
21:53:09 <mdubinko> not too accessible, though
21:53:41 <bear_> spaceman: a lot of clients can be setup to monitor for x number of lines per client and stop them
21:54:05 <Flooda> he must of come from msn chat somehow
21:54:07 <bear_> the channel can also be setup for flood protection - but it can be annoying sometimes
21:55:39 <bear_> from the looks of his ip and user name it's probably a hijacked shell account
21:56:47 <bear_> ahh - he sent exactly 20 lines - that's the default for most irc clients IIRC
21:56:59 <spaceman> bear_: I'll look for that. thanks. Using xchat
22:01:35 <DrB> DrB is now known as DrBacchus
22:01:39 <apple> apple is now known as phroggy
22:02:11 <bear_> well, time for those of us who have to work this week to head home
22:02:19 <bear_> the rest of you enjoy your oscon!
22:02:27 <DrBacchus> Later, taters
22:02:30 <mdubinko> see ya
23:30:34 <DanielSmith> hydra - amazon web services
23:34:17 <qmacro> hi mlangham
23:41:51 <coderman> spiff?
23:42:07 <spaceman> no
23:42:15 <spaceman> spaceman is now known as SteveMallett
23:47:46 <DrB> DrB is now known as DrBacchus