W3C RDF Core Working Group IRC Chat Logs for 2001-05-18

10:49:02 Users on #rdfcore: logger_1 dajobe

13:46:00 * ArtB waves to bwm

13:49:29 <bwm> bwm is now known as bwm-dave

13:49:32 * bwm-dave waves

13:52:35 <frankb> Ping

13:52:45 <ArtB> Pong

13:58:35 <ArtB> ... RDF Core WG teleconf +1-630-536-3003, room 3003

13:59:18 <bwm-dave> bwm-dave is now known as bwm-dan-dave

14:00:46 <bwm-dan-dave> +steve

14:00:53 <bwm-dan-dave> +martin

14:00:57 <ArtB> +ArtB

14:00:59 <bwm-dan-dave> +frank x2

14:02:40 <mdean> mdean is now known as _mdean

14:02:47 <bwm-dan-dave> +eric

14:02:49 <bwm-dan-dave> +aaron

14:02:57 <bwm-dan-dave> +klyne

14:03:22 <ArtB> +Jos

14:03:25 <bwm-dan-dave> +jos

14:03:34 <bwm-dan-dave> +mike

14:06:02 <bwm-dan-dave> regarding minutes from last week, approved except amend re frank manola ref

14:06:03 * em agrees to scribe

14:07:00 <ArtB> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001May/0084.html

14:07:55 Issue: A1: ALL Send feedback to Guha about use of RDF features.

14:08:03 <bwm-dan-dave> regrets from ora, guha, jan grant, rael

14:08:22 A2: Dave Beckett Update the proposed changes for this issue and add test

14:08:23 cases to demonstrate how they worked.

14:08:39 issue: http://www.w3.org/2000/03/rdf-tracking/Overview.html#rdf-ns-prefix-confusion

14:08:59 daveb: action addressed, open for discussion

14:09:24 * em scribe raises hand

14:09:27 <ArtB> Containers: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001May/0113.html

14:10:01 A2: discussion to be postponed to end

14:10:07 A4: Jan Grant reword #rdfms-empty-property-elements proposaland send

14:10:08 a new message with test cases, including one with just an

14:10:08 ID attribute.

14:10:24 danbri: jan sumbitted to list

14:10:32 daveb: missing still last point

14:10:41 daveb: of action

14:10:49 A5: Dave Beckett re #rdfms-not-id-and-resource-attr: Revise analysis and

14:10:50 post to list

14:11:05 daveb: done, discussion postponed

14:11:10 A6: Guha: re #rdfms-reification-required: Present analaysis to list

14:11:10 for discussion.

14:11:26 danbri: not completed.. danbri to poke guha

14:11:29 A7: Brian McBride Link test cases, results etc. from issues list

14:11:42 brian-ill: still open as not feeling well

14:12:03 group wishes brian well

14:12:07 A8: Jan Grant Do an analysis of the impact of XML Base and summarise to

14:12:08 list.

14:12:12 danbri: still open

14:12:21 danbri: anyone want to help with this?

14:12:26 A9: Brian McBride Contact Rael about hosting face to face at O'Reilly.

14:14:27 brian: agress to continue this

14:14:45 danbri: point raised... helping RDF people comming up to speed

14:15:15 * ArtB wants DanBri to justify reification :-)

14:15:19 danbri: suggests contacting danbri offlist if help is needed

14:15:34 20 Ensuring DAML issues are captured in the issue list

14:15:59 <ArtB> Brian: by DAML issues, do you mean issues raised on www-rdf-logic?

14:16:10 brian: wants to make sure that the DAML issues that are being raised on other lists are fully addressed by RDFCore open issues list

14:16:30 mikedean: current status... simple issues by and large on list

14:16:40 mikedean: lots of discussion on rdf-logic,

14:17:00 mikedean: solicit pat hayes and others to take a look at this

14:17:17 danbri: can you say at this stage if there are glaring inconsistenciese?

14:17:24 mikedean: not really...

14:17:55 danbri: technical concerns with perhaps how DAML is handling datatyping

14:18:14 danbri: seems to be potential problem with groups like DublinCOre

14:18:35 danbri: eg. literal as the value of dc:creator

14:18:56 mikedean: (missing something here... somethink about changing damml-)

14:19:00 * AaronSw thinks that it's preferable to be clear -- authorName vs. author

14:19:49 gk: question about reification

14:19:58 group seems to agree

14:20:02 <AaronSw> many laughs

14:20:15 danbri: reification... big issue, suggests to defer

14:21:08 gk: notes simple notes that reification is yet another of these issues that DAML has raised

14:21:53 danbri: gk? interested in summerizing rdf-logic?

14:21:59 <_mdean> i'm hard to hear from a hotel room in Staunton Virginia

14:22:03 <AaronSw> mike agrees to being contact point for daml/rdfcore and will try to get them to provide some concrete recommendations

14:22:13 <_mdean> here's a summary of some of the DAML/RDF issue discussion

14:22:32 gk: agrees to summerize rdf_logic list

14:22:41 frankm: agrees to help with this

14:23:11 ACTION ITEM: gk, and frankm: agreed to summerize rdf-logic perspective and report back to rdfcore wg

14:23:47 wrt reification dsicussion... summerise rdf-logic discussion

14:23:56 <_mdean> i haven't yet finished comparing the DAML concerns to the RDF issues list, but i think they capture the simple issues -- there has also been a lot of discussion (particularly this week) on www-rdf-logic dealing with higher-level issues (reification, minimalist RDF, etc.)

14:24:24 as it applies to both logic and rdf

14:24:43 frankb: agrees to have something (at least issues and distinctions) by nbext weel

14:25:04 * ArtB pats FrankM on the back ...

14:25:22 frankb: agrees to have something by early next week

14:26:01 <_mdean> for next week's Joint Committee telecon, I'll plan to open a discussion of providing specific issues/recommendations to RDF Core

14:26:11 <_mdean> i'm willing to serve as a weekly coordination point

14:26:12 danbri: "what do the ontologists want" thread

14:26:34 danbri: asks jos to summarise the fact that the issue hasn;t been addressed

14:26:45 frankb: ehat would the logicians like to see in rdf

14:27:12 eg clarification of semantics, removing the cruft, etc.

14:27:38 ACTION ITEM: frank to agree to provide references to this work

14:27:53 danbri: 25 Acquiring control of the RDF errata document

14:28:29 <_mdean> also, danbri asked about the object/datatype separation for DAML properties, particularly related to Dublin Core -- if you use daml:ObjectProperty or daml:DataTypeProperty, you're limited -- if you continue to use rdf:Property [names/namespaces from memory] the value can still be either a data type (literal) or object, but you may lose some of the power of DAML

14:28:53 * AaronSw raises hand

14:29:25 <bwm-dan-dave> action on emiller: find out how to get rdfcore control of rdf errata doc

14:29:30 <bwm-dan-dave> aaron: ack'd

14:30:15 <ArtB> Errata for M&S: http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-rdf-syntax-19990222/errata

14:30:38 issue status: http://www.w3.org/2000/03/rdf-tracking/Overview.html#rdf-ns-prefix-confusion

14:30:48 discussion:...

14:31:00 * AaronSw comments that Ralph Swick has edited errata several times based on feedback from public list

14:31:45 * em is unable to scribe for sec.

14:31:58 * em asks group to fill in here

14:32:28 * em is back

14:33:24 daveb: refelcting danc point... instead of issue *nust* to this, change this to *may*

14:33:39 which reflects our atticute toward backward compatability

14:33:50 ArtB: are we guided by w3c process

14:33:50 ?

14:34:05 danbri: in charter, but this is loose provacative interpretation

14:34:24 daveb: suggests keeping this as is

14:35:00 * horner raises hand

14:35:08 danbri: are best judgement of the group is that we deprecate this at this time

14:35:28 martinh: deprecate is a hard line, one level removed...

14:35:52 martinh: advocating deprecation... just remembering this is an evolutionary concept

14:36:05 frankb: deprecation means... next version is gone

14:36:37 frankb: be very clear... if we say deprecation, its gone next version.

14:37:17 * em raises hand

14:37:44 <ArtB> Dave's last comments re ns-prefix-confusion: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001May/0110.html

14:38:11 <AaronSw> danbri: is it gone in the rec we publish or the rec after that?

14:39:24 * ArtB raises hand

14:40:31 <bwm-dan-dave> danbri: this wg anticipates making a hardline spec for eventual w3c recommendation; therefore we as a wg currently discourage the use of x, y, z constructs as our best judgement is that these things will go...

14:40:46 ArtB: suggests that these changes be reflected in a seperate page so developers can easiliy find these uissues/resolutions

14:41:07 ArtB: a page for resolution, a page for issues

14:41:20 * AaronSw thinks that that would be the errata page

14:41:27 * em agrees

14:41:57 * GK (testing IRC feature)

14:42:03 * em waves to gk

14:42:11 * GK waves to em

14:42:12 jos: agrees to arts suggestion

14:42:39 daveb: am I done?

14:42:58 other than some additional prose (danbri's suggestion)

14:43:39 <AaronSw> +Ron Daniels on phone?

14:43:49 ron: agrees to artb's suggestion

14:44:03 ron: notes all of this is subject to change until final sepc is out

14:44:06 * AaronSw raises hand

14:44:44 ACTION ITEM: artb to formalize his suggestion rdfcore changes be reflected in a seperate page so developers can easiliy find these uissues/resolutions

14:45:05 Issue: http://www.w3.org/2000/03/rdf-tracking/Overview.html#rdfms-not-id-and-resource-attr

14:45:09 * AaronSw lowers hand but wonders whether danbri's text lets us decide if it goes in the rec or not

14:46:35 AaronSw: notes there does seem to be an issues of empty prop elements

14:46:50 brian: dave's ananlysis went to list late yesterday

14:47:11 brian: suggest more time is needed for disussion... suggests this is not a closed issue

14:47:40 * em requests dave to submit the url of the issue response

14:48:14 danbri: suggests this be taken offline and continue discussion

14:48:29 end discussion of issue...

14:49:15 issue: http://www.w3.org/2000/03/rdf-tracking/Overview.html#rdfms-resource-semantics

14:49:24 martin - owner

14:49:39 martinh: spent a lot of time on this... more than expected

14:50:25 martin: 2 questions - is a uri a pack of atoms (suggest answer is no), can 2 resources point to the same object (suggests answer yes)

14:50:37 amrtin: suggests cutting this loose

14:51:10 * ArtB wonders if that is Bill speaking ?

14:51:12 <bwm-dan-dave> +bill (not in roll call?)

14:51:14 +bill

14:51:26 Bill deOra (sp?

14:52:08 martin: very close to philosophical discussions...

14:52:14 danbri: rathole (em agrees)

14:52:37 frankb: notes that this perhaps is being too quickly suggested this is philosphy

14:52:46 frankb: suggest perhaps more test cases

14:53:16 frankb: suggests conclusiosn we come to illustrated with test cases to ensure distinctions we want to convey are done by terms we use

14:53:47 frankb: e.g. the thing on the web that is obtained with derefencing uri amd the thing the uri denotes

14:54:03 <GK> Web-copy of the old terminologicus document is at http://public.research.mimesweeper.com/RDF/RDFTerminologyConcepts.html

14:54:09 <AaronSw> em, was that not frankM?

14:54:11 danbri: as fars as issue... technically critcal, but clear rathole

14:54:20 s/frankb/frankm

14:54:23 * em thanks

14:55:33 general: group agres to talk about test cases rather than philosophy about this

14:55:44 end discussion

14:55:55 issue: http://www.w3.org/2000/03/rdf-tracking/Overview.html#rdf-terminologicus

14:55:59 owner martin

14:57:02 ACTION ITEM: martin agrees to provide test cases

14:57:06 wrappup...

14:57:11 danbri: other business?

14:58:41 GK: notes http://public.research.mimesweeper.com/RDF/RDFTerminologyConcepts.html as perhaps help to terminoligy

14:59:19 <AaronSw> all leave

19:33:56 <dajobe> Logger told to quit

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