W3C RDF Core Working Group IRC Chat Logs for 2001-06-22

13:00:03 Users on #rdfcore: logger_1 AaronSw danbri ArtB

13:02:19 <AaronSw> Hey, how'd logger get here?

13:02:23 <AaronSw> Cron script?

13:51:58 <AaronSw> AaronSw has changed the topic to: a

13:52:02 <AaronSw> AaronSw has changed the topic to: Phone Number: +1 630 536 3003 room #3003

13:52:30 <AaronSw> AaronSw has changed the topic to: RDF Core Telecon

13:53:36 <frankb> ping

13:53:51 <AaronSw> Hello Frank.

13:53:58 <frankb> Hi Aaron

13:54:26 <spetschu> hi folks

13:59:53 <AaronSw> +Aaron

14:00:13 <ArtB> +Art, Stephen, Brian

14:00:24 <mdean> mdean is now known as mdean_

14:00:32 <AaronSw> Phone Number: +1 630 536 3003 room #3003

14:01:30 <AaronSw> +GK, Frank, em

14:01:39 * danbri dials in

14:01:51 <danbri> +danbri

14:03:13 <spetschu> spetschu is now known as spetschu-scribe

14:03:49 <ArtB> Brian: minutes should be posted within 1 working day

14:04:07 <spetschu-scribe> WELCOME, ROLL CALL, SCRIBE

14:04:28 <spetschu-scribe> regrets daveB, DanC

14:04:29 <ArtB> +Ron

14:04:36 <spetschu-scribe> regrets BillD

14:04:37 <ArtB> +Jos

14:05:12 <spetschu-scribe> regrets, JanG, MartinH, Yoshiyuki (sp?)

14:05:38 <AaronSw> regrets manola

14:05:46 <spetschu-scribe> regrets: Mike, SitoshiN (sp?)

14:06:00 <mdean_> Mike Dean is here (phone and IRC), but apparently can't be heard

14:06:03 <spetschu-scribe> absent: MikeD, PatH

14:06:06 <spetschu-scribe> + Sergey

14:06:12 <mdean_> see above

14:06:21 <ArtB> +MikeD

14:06:36 <spetschu-scribe> REVIEW AGENDA

14:06:44 <spetschu-scribe> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Jun/0391.html

14:07:27 <spetschu-scribe> Thoughts on semantics if there is time..

14:07:31 <ArtB> AOB=AnyOtherBusiness

14:08:15 <spetschu-scribe> REVIEW MINUTES OF PREVIOUS MEETING (see previous link)

14:08:29 <spetschu-scribe> Agenda is at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Jun/0392.html

14:08:38 <bwm> graham?

14:09:00 <spetschu-scribe> CONFIRM FOLLOWING ACTIONS COMPLETED

14:09:03 <em> we can't hear you graham...

14:09:47 <spetschu-scribe> AP: 2001-06-15#1: Brian: done, see agenda

14:09:57 <spetschu-scribe> AP: 2001-06-15#2: Jan: done, see agenda

14:10:08 <AaronSw> Grant's action: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Jun/0340.html

14:10:35 <AaronSw> Brian's action: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Jun/0400.html

14:12:17 <spetschu-scribe> Anything to add to last weeks meeting minutes, email Graham.

14:12:26 <AaronSw> Will review again next week

14:12:54 <spetschu-scribe> A4: Guha: re #rdfms-reification-required:

14:13:05 <AaronSw> Postponed

14:13:05 <spetschu-scribe> Will postpone this action.

14:13:24 <spetschu-scribe> ACTION: JUN-01-01-#1: Martyn: absent, postpone

14:13:34 <spetschu-scribe> ACTION: JUN-01-01-#9: Ora: absent, postpone

14:13:53 * ArtB cannot hear the speaker

14:14:10 <spetschu-scribe> AP: 2001-06-15#3: Jan: done

14:14:16 <spetschu-scribe> AP: 2001-06-15#4: Brian: done

14:14:19 <AaronSw> steve, i put the links above

14:14:37 <spetschu-scribe> REVIEW STATUS OF FOLLOWING ACTIONS

14:14:42 <spetschu-scribe> AS: thx

14:15:01 <spetschu-scribe> Face to Face Meeting - Goals and Objectives (15 mins)

14:15:12 <AaronSw> no, actually: Partitioning the Problem Space (5 minutes)

14:15:32 <spetschu-scribe> :)

14:17:16 <AaronSw> danbri: glad we have a single WG

14:17:24 <AaronSw> gk: not chinese walls, simply guidelines

14:17:43 <AaronSw> ron: we still need to solve the issues

14:17:56 <AaronSw> brian: this is just a way to parition the issues to tackle in parallel

14:18:03 <AaronSw> brian: we're running out of time on the calendar

14:18:23 <AaronSw> ron: now's the hard part -- getting resolution

14:18:27 <spetschu-scribe> ron: how to evaluate candidate solutions

14:19:45 <spetschu-scribe> brian: charter explains our requirements

14:20:13 <AaronSw> ron: is n-triples a sufficient model? implementation experience shows no

14:21:28 <spetschu-scribe> brian: issue of core containing n-triples on, still up for discussion

14:21:56 <spetschu-scribe> s/on/only/

14:22:43 <gk> GK: Purpose on N-triples us (only) to express test case results

14:23:23 <AaronSw> jos: useful interop utility -- sees differences between parsers

14:23:25 <gk> s/on/of/, s/us/is/

14:23:56 <spetschu-scribe> brian: may have to change n-triples

14:24:03 <gk> Brian: May need to change N-triples to represent xml:lang

14:24:19 <spetschu-scribe> brian: n-triples will be target syntax

14:24:25 <spetschu-scribe> s/will/may/

14:24:30 <AaronSw> (brian's personal view)

14:24:31 <gk> Brian: define syntax as translation into N-triples

14:24:38 <gk> GK: has reservations

14:25:24 <spetschu-scribe> Need to have just one language, not two

14:25:55 <spetschu-scribe> (brian)

14:26:56 <spetschu-scribe> Will probably find n-triples is insufficient

14:26:59 <spetschu-scribe> (credit?)

14:27:08 <gk> Was Ron, I think

14:27:27 <AaronSw> yes, ron

14:27:27 <spetschu-scribe> sorry, I'm horrible at recognizing voices ;)

14:27:49 <gk> Sergey: being machine readable doesn't necessarily help human readability

14:27:56 <spetschu-scribe> sergey: wonders if this syntax is meant to be parsed by tools or is it just human communication

14:28:06 <AaronSw> jos: definitely between machines

14:28:42 <spetschu-scribe> brian: back to the agenda

14:29:12 <AaronSw> brian: general agreement problem space is a way to move forward but not a panacea

14:29:24 <AaronSw> ...just a way to break work up and get framework for issues

14:29:24 <spetschu-scribe> Face to Face Meeting - Goals and Objectives (15 mins)

14:29:41 <spetschu-scribe> open discussion...

14:29:59 <gk> +Pat Hayes

14:30:00 <spetschu-scribe> pat: timing w.r.t SWWS

14:30:21 * danbri apologises for mostly lurking (jetlag, lack of sleep + hay fever) taking their toll...

14:30:31 <AaronSw> pat since 9:06

14:30:36 <AaronSw> cst

14:31:14 <spetschu-scribe> brian: are the goals acheivable?

14:31:23 <spetschu-scribe> s/ei/ie/

14:31:32 <bwm> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Jun/0394.html

14:31:45 <spetschu-scribe> aaron: build foundation first

14:32:18 <AaronSw> gk: want to see the big picture, and the interactions between the issues

14:32:22 <spetschu-scribe> graham: we need to all need to be on the same page

14:32:24 <AaronSw> ...common sense of purpose, direction

14:33:28 <spetschu-scribe> eric: lets figure this out now, not when we get there

14:33:35 * AaronSw raises hand

14:33:43 * ArtB raises hand

14:33:45 <spetschu-scribe> pat: agrees

14:33:57 <gk> GK: agrees (silently)

14:34:06 <spetschu-scribe> art: agrees

14:34:31 <AaronSw> art: would it be useful for the chairs to pick out issues in scope and those not

14:34:53 <spetschu-scribe> art: lets assign issues into partitions & figure out dependencies

14:34:59 <gk> (What I think Eric said was that we should not spend too much F2F time on "process and coordination" issues, and also use it to address meaty technical issues)

14:35:00 <spetschu-scribe> sergey: agrees

14:35:48 <spetschu-scribe> Need an action

14:35:57 <spetschu-scribe> - which issues are in scope

14:36:06 <spetschu-scribe> - what are the partitions

14:36:15 <spetschu-scribe> - what are the dependencies for these issues

14:36:25 <spetschu-scribe> ACTION: Brian - draft these three items

14:37:28 <spetschu-scribe> jos: 3-4 partitions (ASS, vocabs, schema)?

14:37:32 <ArtB> By 'what are the partitions', I was suggesting that we try to assign the issues to the partitions

14:37:38 <AaronSw> jos: what is the difference between schema and vocab?

14:37:43 <spetschu-scribe> aaron: raised this on list

14:37:48 <gk> Jos: what is difference between schema and vocab

14:37:55 <gk> Brian: schema is mechanism for defining vocab

14:38:00 <danbri> RDF Schema 1.0 CR: [[

14:38:01 <danbri> This specification describes how to use RDF to describe RDF vocabularies. The specification also defines a basic vocabulary for this purpose, as well as an

14:38:01 <danbri> extensibility mechanism to anticipate future additions to RDF.

14:38:02 <danbri> ]]

14:38:36 <AaronSw> danbri: partiioning issues is not the same as paritioning the specs

14:39:11 <spetschu-scribe> brian: lets see some discussion on list about f2f time... it is valuable time

14:39:32 <AaronSw> brian: what are the technical goals for the f2f?

14:40:02 <spetschu-scribe> em: partitioning discussions helpful... try & prioritize some of these partitions, identify dependencies

14:40:21 <spetschu-scribe> em: priorities will focus us

14:40:46 * danbri notes that http://www.w3.org/2000/03/rdf-tracking/ already partitions out the RDF Schema issues (from RDFS 1.0 Cand Rec period and subsequent discussion)

14:41:04 <spetschu-scribe> brian: source of priorities?

14:41:54 <spetschu-scribe> em: educated guessing is ok, we are the right group to do it

14:42:05 <spetschu-scribe> brian: post your priorities to list

14:42:20 <spetschu-scribe> danB: we aready have partitions (see link above)

14:43:33 <spetschu-scribe> em: priorities are just one tool to help focus

14:44:00 * gk I have a concern that we're spending more time talking about how to tackle issues rather than actually tackling them

14:44:03 <AaronSw> aaron: list of prioritization should be the same as the layering

14:44:22 <AaronSw> eric: don't think there'll be much disagreement

14:44:25 <AaronSw> danbri: i disagree

14:44:41 <spetschu-scribe> danbri: decouple schema from xml serialization

14:45:02 <spetschu-scribe> danbri: wants to roll years of feedback into draft

14:45:30 <spetschu-scribe> aaron: wants to rebuild from gnd up.. partitions, connections

14:46:00 <spetschu-scribe> danbri: could be a case for re-partition, but have to deal will current issues

14:46:54 <AaronSw> aaron: if you're willing to do the work, i have no problem

14:47:07 <spetschu-scribe> ACTION: Danbri: get a draft of RDFSchema to the group

14:48:01 <spetschu-scribe> aaron: what will be the changes to the doc?

14:48:04 <AaronSw> danbri: purely editorial changes in this draft

14:48:06 <spetschu-scribe> danbri: editorial primarily

14:48:14 <AaronSw> ... get it back in the world of the living

14:48:40 <AaronSw> new action? activate more issues

14:49:01 <spetschu-scribe> ACTION: Danbri: start activating issues on RDFS

14:49:10 <spetschu-scribe> (correct, danbri?)

14:49:28 <spetschu-scribe> brian: Do we want to reschedule f2f

14:49:43 <spetschu-scribe> brian: due to SWWS schedule being extended

14:50:07 <danbri> ACTION-in-Progress: the URI for my edits-in-progress WG internal copy is: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/Schema/20010618/

14:50:34 <spetschu-scribe> danbri: lets just miss the last half day of SWWS

14:50:41 <spetschu-scribe> (who was that speaking?)

14:50:44 <danbri> ...for info only. ""This text is undergoing active editorial work an is

14:50:44 <danbri> subject to change""

14:51:01 <danbri> scribe: it wasn't me (I was typing...)

14:51:10 <spetschu-scribe> How many attendees are expected at F2F

14:51:39 <gk> Brian: estimate 20-30

14:51:39 <spetschu-scribe> Anyone want to claim the statement attributed to danbri?

14:52:25 <spetschu-scribe> graham(?): stanford possible?

14:52:37 * gk not I. I thiunk it was Pat

14:52:40 <spetschu-scribe> brian: doesn't want to lose a half a day to SWWS

14:53:37 <spetschu-scribe> graham & others: flights are booked already

14:54:11 <spetschu-scribe> em: we will miss out on DanC's time if we start on the 2nd

14:54:15 * gk raises hand

14:55:01 <spetschu-scribe> graham: can someone talk to the SWWS organizers

14:55:14 <spetschu-scribe> graham: and get the stuff relevant to us early on

14:55:21 <spetschu-scribe> sergey: can talk to the organizers

14:56:05 <spetschu-scribe> [5 min left]

14:56:33 <spetschu-scribe> action?

14:56:43 <spetschu-scribe> ACTION: sergey: talk to organizers

14:56:54 <spetschu-scribe> ... of SWWS

14:57:18 <spetschu-scribe> brian: Anyone have open issues with test case for rdf-containers-syntax-ambiguity, rdf-containers-syntax-vs-schema

14:57:25 <spetschu-scribe> ?

14:57:41 <AaronSw> art: i want to see how test cases reflect new grammar

14:58:05 <AaronSw> ...trouble using test cases to see the decision

14:58:18 <gk> art: concerned thatthe test cases don't entirely reflect the full extent of the decisions that are being made (??)

14:58:44 <gk> pat: similar concern?

14:58:52 <AaronSw> ACTION Brian: do a writeup of the containers proposal

14:58:54 <spetschu-scribe> Faild to close the container issues

14:59:01 <spetschu-scribe> s/Faild/Failed/

14:59:24 <spetschu-scribe> sergey: reiterate we should all action on EM's proposal for priorities

14:59:41 <spetschu-scribe> ACTION: sergey: summarize priorties that are posted

14:59:51 <spetschu-scribe> ACTION: all: post priorities with reasons

15:00:08 <spetschu-scribe> [meeting closed, time up]

15:00:36 <spetschu-scribe> Thanks GK & AS for scribing assistance..

15:00:59 * gk welcome -- last week I realized how hard it was!

15:01:18 <AaronSw> no problem, steve

15:01:25 <spetschu-scribe> lol... I recognize most of the voices now, but it's hard putting them to names...

15:01:27 * gk listening and typing together can be real tough

15:01:33 <spetschu-scribe> I suspect the f2f will help that

15:01:55 <gk> Byeee....

15:03:05 <spetschu-scribe> spetschu-scribe is now known as spetschu

15:03:20 <AaronSw> logger, depart

15:03:24 <danbri> thanks all; bye!

15:03:34 <AaronSw> bye all

15:03:36 <AaronSw> I'm logging. I don't understand 'depart', AaronSw. Try /msg logger_1 help

15:03:36 <AaronSw> logger_1, depart

15:03:40 <AaronSw> Logger told to quit

15:04:04 Topic now RDF Core Telecon

15:04:04 Users on #rdfcore: logger_1 gk mdean_ bwm frankb em spetschu AaronSw ArtB

15:04:18 <AaronSw> well, so much for that idea

15:06:02 <spetschu> Does anyone have URL for the logger?

15:06:26 <AaronSw> yes, hold on

15:06:37 <AaronSw> http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfcore/2001-06-22

15:06:47 <spetschu> thx