W3C RDF Core Working Group IRC Chat Logs for 2001-08-17

13:01:03 Users on #rdfcore: logger_1 AaronSw

13:44:36 <DanC_> hi gang.

13:44:49 * em_ waves

13:45:06 <dajobe> hi all - dave and jeremy carroll

13:45:34 <DanC_> Hi Jeremy. Sure is nice to have high quality software like ARP drop from the sky unexpectedly.

13:46:04 <dajobe> jeremy says: hi I've never used IRC bedfore

13:47:06 <DanC_> IRC is fun. as long as you keep your expectations suitably low (e.g. don't expect you have 100% of everybody's attention) it can be a fantastic tool.

13:47:36 * danbri waves groggily from Bristol

13:47:38 <DanC_> DanC_ has changed the topic to: RDF Core WG 17Aug

13:49:25 * AaronSw waves... only one phone line here, won't be able to make it via IRC

13:50:56 <danbri> Folks, I am going to lurk in IRC. I flew through the night and arrived back only just now. Am exhausted.

13:51:43 <AaronSw> awww

13:52:48 <DanC_> hmm... I was sorta expecting danbri to fill in the gaps in my "3 WDs in Aug" from the RDF Schema angle. I'll lower my expectations. Maybe we can follow up on that Monday in the SemWeb CG.

13:53:27 * DanC_ wonders how scribe duties will be assigned

13:53:28 * em_ would really like to see, MT, syntax and test cases out the door asap

13:54:12 * em_ appologizes for delay in joining todays call... will be on shortly

13:54:47 <danbri> I had an abortive phone chat about that w/ Brian on the coach back from the airport. I'm of the view that a modestly amended RDFS spec could go out the door as an rdfcore WD pretty soon. If we wanted to scrap it and write it in KIF, that'd be another story.

13:55:26 <em_> danbri, we still have a Sept 6 date for RDF Schema, correct?

13:55:50 * em_ was including RDF Schema as a Sept deliverable... but still supports DanC's Aug request

13:55:55 <danbri> Yes, I was just looking up in the ACTIONs to confirm that.

13:56:21 * em_ still offers the vegimite tease for the Sept 1 date :)

13:56:29 * ArtB is dialed-in

13:56:42 <danbri> RDFS is, as I said during the F2F discussion, relatively peripheral to the main thrust of RDFCore's work. Fixing domain/range and doing datatypes mostly has us done.

13:58:10 * dajobe dials in

13:59:27 <spetschu> +StephenP

13:59:40 <dajobe> +bwm, +jeremy

14:00:30 <ArtB> +ArtB, AAron, DaveB, Martyn

14:01:00 * ArtB wonders if the new guy automatically gets scribe duties :-)

14:01:35 <DanC_> +DanC

14:01:58 * DanC_ nominates EricM real quick

14:02:32 * em_ notes earlier appologies re being late... will be on teleconference in about 5 min

14:03:06 <dajobe> agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Aug/0071.html

14:03:13 <spetschu> spetschu is now known as spetschu_scribe

14:03:13 <DanC_> ======= Welcome Jeremy!

14:03:27 <spetschu_scribe> ROLL CALL

14:03:35 <DanC_> regrets from DanBri

14:03:45 <DanC_> +Barstow, Beckett, Boumphry

14:03:47 <spetschu_scribe> ArtB, DaveB,

14:03:54 <spetschu_scribe> RonD not here

14:03:55 * DanC_ stops taking role

14:04:07 <spetschu_scribe> BillD absent

14:04:08 <ArtB> Bill, no

14:04:09 <spetschu_scribe> Jos here

14:04:14 <spetschu_scribe> Rael absent

14:04:17 <spetschu_scribe> Jan regrets

14:04:22 <spetschu_scribe> Yoshi absent

14:04:28 <spetschu_scribe> Graham regrets

14:04:29 <spetschu_scribe> ?

14:04:34 <spetschu_scribe> Kwan absent

14:04:38 <spetschu_scribe> ora absent

14:04:41 <spetschu_scribe> frank regrets

14:04:50 <spetschu_scribe> Y. Nakamura absent

14:04:55 <spetschu_scribe> Pierre Richard absent

14:04:59 <spetschu_scribe> AaronS here

14:05:06 <spetschu_scribe> Mike regrets

14:05:08 <DanC_> ?=Michael Kopchenov

14:05:09 <spetschu_scribe> Guha absent

14:05:11 <spetschu_scribe> Pat here

14:05:13 <spetschu_scribe> thx

14:05:28 <spetschu_scribe> Michael Kopchenov absent

14:05:34 <spetschu_scribe> REVIEW AGENDA

14:05:42 <DanC_> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members.html seems to be missing Sergey

14:05:47 <spetschu_scribe> Martin is HERE

14:06:27 <spetschu_scribe> bwm: is eric here? ... on shortly

14:06:49 <spetschu_scribe> bwm: AOB?

14:06:51 <spetschu_scribe> no..

14:06:56 <spetschu_scribe> REVIEW MINUTES OF MEETING on 27th July 2001

14:07:01 <bwm>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Aug/0065.html

14:07:11 <spetschu_scribe> bwm: accurate?

14:07:16 <spetschu_scribe> yes

14:07:22 <spetschu_scribe> REVIEW MINUTES OF FACE TO FACE MEETING 1-2 AUG 2001

14:07:26 <spetschu_scribe>http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/20010801-f2f/

14:07:57 <spetschu_scribe> art: a few questions about part time attendees

14:08:16 <DanC_> ftf minutes are dated $Id: Overview.html,v 1.29 2001/07/27 16:00:21 bmcbride Exp $

14:08:19 * em_ dials

14:08:32 <em_> +ericm

14:08:45 <spetschu_scribe> need to clear up who was there when so record shows who agreed to what

14:09:12 <spetschu_scribe> ACTION: bwm: updated F2F page with part time (Mike)

14:09:18 <ArtB> Decision: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/20010801-f2f/2001-08-02.html#T21-09-50

14:09:51 <DanC_> Art's asking what was decided where the record says "

14:09:51 <DanC_> Subproperties of transitive properties are not necessarily transitive"

14:10:04 <spetschu_scribe> bwm: recalls that it was

14:10:36 <spetschu_scribe> ACTION: bwm: take it off the decision

14:10:50 <spetschu_scribe> ... unclear it was amended

14:10:54 <spetschu_scribe> bwm: any other objections?

14:11:04 <spetschu_scribe> Danc: link to presentations?

14:11:15 <spetschu_scribe> bwm: KWan needs to deliver his

14:11:32 * danbri uploading pat's as you speak

14:12:05 <spetschu_scribe> DanC: diagram of model theory needs to be in the record

14:12:40 <danbri> (I also have some photos, but don't believe they captured content of whiteboard)

14:13:03 * spetschu_scribe has some photos he will upload

14:13:20 <dajobe> danbri: what are you uploading?

14:13:38 <danbri> pat's .ppt slides on the model theory, plus some generated MS-HTML

14:14:21 * DanC_ suggests tidying the MS-HTML

14:14:30 <em_> DanC, is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-semweb-ad/2001Aug/0009.html what you were refering to?

14:14:40 <spetschu_scribe> ACTION: bwm: gather any slides, materials, etc. for the website

14:14:51 <dajobe> em_: bwm wants your emacs files

14:15:20 <DanC_> em, that's one thing that should be in the record, but there's also the 3 interpretations of the book/title/author example.

14:15:21 <spetschu_scribe> jos: found some broken links on the webpage

14:15:38 <ArtB> Link checker utility: http://validator.w3.org/checklink

14:16:18 <spetschu_scribe> bwm: will wait until changes are made before approving F2F minutes

14:16:29 <spetschu_scribe> bwm: approval next week

14:16:44 <spetschu_scribe> DanC: summary of F2F for members... "letter to members"

14:16:50 <spetschu_scribe> em: examples would be good

14:17:02 <spetschu_scribe> ACTION: em: write letter to members

14:17:05 <danbri> photos: from my personal photo archive, http://rdfweb.org/people/danbri/2001/07/media/6/images/ (covers day 1 of F2F)

14:17:27 <spetschu_scribe> CONFIRM FOLLOWING ACTIONS COMPLETED (2 min)

14:18:43 * DanC_ suggests declaring victory; a new action is OK

14:18:51 <spetschu_scribe> ... discussion over whether to call ACTION 2001-08-02#4 continued

14:18:53 <DanC_> oh well.

14:18:59 <spetschu_scribe> bwm: ACTION 2001-08-02#4 marked continued

14:19:32 <spetschu_scribe> all others in this section marked completed

14:19:41 <spetschu_scribe> CONFIRM FOLLOWING ACTIONS CLOSED

14:19:41 <DanC_> up thru ACTION 2001-07-27#3 - Brian - Update f2f page to point to Pat's model theory that is

14:19:58 <spetschu_scribe> bwm: confirm these ones are obsolete

14:20:22 <spetschu_scribe> ACTION: 2001-06-22#5

14:20:23 <spetschu_scribe> ACTION 2001-07-20#1

14:20:32 <spetschu_scribe> ACTION 2001-07-20#5

14:20:36 <spetschu_scribe> ACTION 2001-07-27#4

14:20:42 <spetschu_scribe> all closed (group agrees)

14:20:47 <spetschu_scribe> REVIEW STATUS OF FOLLOWING ACTIONS (5 min)

14:20:56 <spetschu_scribe> ACTION 2001-07-27#1 - EricM

14:21:01 * DanC_ wonders about skipping over those actions where folks aren't around so quickly; hopes the chair follows up offline

14:21:11 <spetschu_scribe> continued

14:21:16 <spetschu_scribe> ACTION 2000-07-20#10 - Bill

14:21:19 <spetschu_scribe> continued

14:21:24 <spetschu_scribe> ACTION: 2001-07-06#2

14:21:26 <spetschu_scribe> continued

14:21:35 <spetschu_scribe> ACTION 2001-08-01#3

14:21:38 <spetschu_scribe> continued

14:22:03 <spetschu_scribe> both of Jan's continued

14:22:18 <spetschu_scribe> ACTION 2001-08-02#13

14:22:20 <spetschu_scribe> done

14:22:32 * em_ mails Brian and Dabri all of his notes/documents from the f2f (including Kwan's presentation)

14:23:17 <spetschu_scribe> ACTION 2001-08-02#14 Ora Lassila

14:23:18 <spetschu_scribe> absent

14:23:25 <spetschu_scribe> ACTION 2001-08-02#15 Pat Hayes

14:23:36 <spetschu_scribe> continued.. will discuss at next telecon w/ DAML

14:23:43 <spetschu_scribe> ACTION 2001-08-02#15 Sergey Melnik

14:23:47 <spetschu_scribe> absent -- con't

14:23:53 <spetschu_scribe> ACTION 2001-08-02#22 Hyung-Jin Kwon

14:23:54 <spetschu_scribe> con't

14:24:03 <spetschu_scribe> ACTION 2001-08-02#23 Brian McBride

14:24:05 <spetschu_scribe> con't

14:24:20 <spetschu_scribe> DanBri's many ACTIONs....

14:24:22 <spetschu_scribe> all continued

14:24:35 <spetschu_scribe> Discuss the strawman document structure: (15 mins)

14:24:43 <spetschu_scribe> see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Aug/0038.html

14:25:18 <spetschu_scribe> DanC: "stimulated his brain"... good work :)

14:26:02 <spetschu_scribe> DanC: model theory... doesn't want it merged

14:26:44 <spetschu_scribe> +Ron Daniel

14:27:35 <spetschu_scribe> bwm: write from scratch or start from M&S... probably latter

14:28:01 <spetschu_scribe> bwm: lets get started on standards track doc

14:28:06 <spetschu_scribe> bwm: thoughts?

14:28:36 <spetschu_scribe> RonD: still thorny issues we need to nail before proceeding (reif, etc.)

14:29:31 <spetschu_scribe> PatH: large areas of agreement... lots of room to get started in these areas

14:29:50 * danbri sheds an ACTION: Pat's MT slides are now online - http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/20010801-f2f/mt/

14:29:52 <spetschu_scribe> DanC: WG are *required* to publish something every three months at min

14:30:27 <spetschu_scribe> DanC: would like to publish the model theory first & get feedback... scribblings on formal descr. of grammar + one other thing (missed it)

14:30:45 <spetschu_scribe> Jos: more in favour of new doc structure

14:31:30 * dajobe asked if model doc not ready, how about others?

14:31:36 <spetschu_scribe> PatH: concerned whether set of these docs will be the final result

14:32:27 <spetschu_scribe> (DanCs missing thing above was a tutorial)

14:32:44 <spetschu_scribe> DaveB: too early for XML syntax

14:33:07 <spetschu_scribe> DanC: note Working Draft does not imply concensus

14:33:44 <spetschu_scribe> DaveB: n-triples normative is issue

14:34:46 <spetschu_scribe> em: don't publish for the sake of publishing, however we do have some stuff we can bake & get feedback (w/ caveats)

14:34:54 <spetschu_scribe> martin: stake in the ground would be nice

14:35:40 * DanC_ checks the process document about the 3 month rule... whether it has to be a /TR/

14:35:42 <spetschu_scribe> stevep: would like to see a model theory & tutorial out a soon as possible

14:36:15 <spetschu_scribe> DanC: was there a task force for tutorials?

14:36:20 <spetschu_scribe> Pat: just a list of volunteers

14:37:09 <spetschu_scribe> Danc: we should make it clear we are looking into things like Johnathan Bordens comments, infoset, etc.

14:37:59 <spetschu_scribe> ACTION: DaveB: write up draft Experimental RDF XML syntax

14:38:34 <spetschu_scribe> bwm: publish model theory in present form?

14:39:05 <spetschu_scribe> jeremy: would like reif done first?

14:39:13 * danbri dials in (can't sleep)

14:39:14 * spetschu_scribe missed part of that

14:39:49 <spetschu_scribe> ... can Graham help Pat w/ getting model theory into ship shape?

14:39:54 <spetschu_scribe> DanC will help Pat

14:40:31 <spetschu_scribe> ACTION: Pat: producde draft of model theory (reif. and container stuff excluded)

14:40:46 <spetschu_scribe> Pat will get help with W3C style bit later (DanC and others)

14:41:34 <spetschu_scribe> Art volunteered for test case doc

14:41:36 <ArtB> ACTION: Art - create a WD for test cases [include N-Triples]

14:42:00 <spetschu_scribe> DaveB will help art with that

14:42:40 <spetschu_scribe> bwm: concerned that we don't have a clear path from Working Drafts to final deliverables

14:43:14 <spetschu_scribe> ---------

14:43:14 <spetschu_scribe> Issue #rdfms-glossary Martyn (10 mins)

14:43:59 * spetschu_scribe notes he misspelled Martyns name earlier... same with Kwon... sorry

14:44:36 <spetschu_scribe> Martyn: let multiple voices into the doc initially & then consolidate the terms & definitions down later

14:45:08 <spetschu_scribe> Martyn: don't want to bog down in the philosophy terms initially... save for later

14:45:53 * DanC_ is happy to have Martyn taking an action to write something for the end users; it's not *quite* a tutorial, but I hope it'll be connected to one eventually.

14:46:06 <dajobe> martyn's doc http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Aug/att-0064/01-RDFTerminologyConcepts.html

14:46:06 <spetschu_scribe> ACTION: Martyn: collection comments & definitions

14:46:46 <spetschu_scribe> clarify above action: ACTIOn Martyn: update doc at URI & get feedback

14:46:52 <spetschu_scribe> Issue #rdfs-transitive-subProperty (10 mins)

14:47:14 <spetschu_scribe>http://www.w3.org/2000/03/rdf-tracking/#rdfs-transitive-subSubProperty

14:47:22 <spetschu_scribe> Jan's message:

14:47:23 <spetschu_scribe>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Aug/0031.html

14:47:54 <spetschu_scribe> bwm: proposes Jan's message resolves this

14:48:27 <spetschu_scribe> Danc: we should copy the person who originally raised this issue

14:48:40 <spetschu_scribe> bwm: notes taht we should add this to our standard process for issue resolution

14:48:57 <spetschu_scribe> pat: will try to remember

14:49:16 <spetschu_scribe> DanBri is with us +DanBri

14:50:30 <spetschu_scribe> [10 min left]

14:50:39 <spetschu_scribe> Issue #rdfms-literal-is-xml-structure (10 mins)

14:50:47 <spetschu_scribe>http://www.w3.org/2000/03/rdf-tracking/#rdfms-literal-is-xml-structure

14:50:55 * dajobe notes jeremy, sitting here raised his hand

14:51:21 <spetschu_scribe> bwm: who wants to own it? Jeremy?

14:51:49 <spetschu_scribe> Jeremy volunteers to own this.

14:53:18 <spetschu_scribe> Model Theory (10 mins)

14:53:45 <spetschu_scribe> pat: question iswhere are the boundaries between RDF & RDFS

14:53:58 <spetschu_scribe> +Pierre (joined late)

14:54:52 <spetschu_scribe> Pierre: two docs should be defined in a better way... this creates a barrier for beginners learning the tehcnology

14:55:17 <spetschu_scribe> DanC: would like syntactic gizmos like LI, aboutEach, etc. in another namespace

14:55:28 <spetschu_scribe> Danc: but what is the cost this late in the game?

14:56:09 <dajobe> my analysis of rdf, rdfs and syntax gizmos: http://www.redland.opensource.ac.uk/notes/concepts.html

14:56:21 <spetschu_scribe> Pat: agrees users are confused by the namespace issues daml, rdfs, rdf namespaces all in one doc

14:56:35 <spetschu_scribe> Danc: prism seems to pull off the multiple vocabs in one doc

14:56:47 <spetschu_scribe> DanBri: points out they are vocab based

14:57:07 <spetschu_scribe> RonD: PRISM finds it easier to set the rules & users accept it

14:57:20 * ArtB likes the PRISM users' pragmatic view ...

14:57:36 <spetschu_scribe> bwm: back to question: boundary between RDF & RDFS

14:57:57 <dajobe> danbri's historical answer to pat: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Aug/0087.html

14:58:08 <spetschu_scribe> [5 min left]

14:58:16 * em_ raises his hand

14:58:29 <spetschu_scribe> RonD: recalls schema is there to define a type system

14:58:34 <spetschu_scribe> s/is/was/

14:59:02 <spetschu_scribe> Pat: containers break this distinction

14:59:34 <spetschu_scribe> eric: agrees with ron, but adds M&S was design so no additional stuff needed to be retrieved (ie. it is self contained)

14:59:50 * danbri glances at the clock

15:00:03 <DanC_> regular meeting next week?

15:00:30 <spetschu_scribe> bwm: 1 min left.. would like to close the meeting

15:00:39 <spetschu_scribe> next Meeting: same time, same place...

15:00:46 <danbri> +

15:00:49 <spetschu_scribe> CLOSE

15:00:53 <spetschu_scribe> ============

15:01:08 <spetschu_scribe> ..... some more discussion.....

15:02:13 * DanC_ takes another call

15:02:44 * DanC_ returns

15:03:42 <danbri> -audio

15:03:44 * dajobe offline

15:03:45 <spetschu_scribe> bye folks

15:03:53 <danbri> bye!

15:04:36 <dajobe> bye