W3C RDF Core Working Group IRC Chat Logs for 2002-08-16

13:00:12 Users on #rdfcore: @logger_1

13:49:03 * danb_usa waves to brian

13:49:07 <danb_usa> danb_usa is now known as danbri

13:59:52 * RRSAgent is logging

14:02:11 <DanConn> Zakim, what's the passcode?

14:02:12 <Zakim> sorry, DanConn, I don't know what conference this is

14:02:16 <DanConn> Zakim, this is RDF

14:02:18 <Zakim> ok, DanConn

14:02:23 <DanConn> agenda?

14:02:25 * Zakim sees nothing on the agenda

14:02:45 <DanConn> agenda + 16Aug http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Aug/0144.html

14:02:46 * Zakim notes agendum 1 added

14:02:47 <em> zakim, who is here?

14:02:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P10, Manola, EricM, PatrickS, ??P14

14:02:49 <Zakim> On IRC I see DanConn, mdean, RRSAgent, Zakim, em, bwm, danbri, logger_1

14:03:18 <Zakim> +EricP

14:03:26 <DanConn> ericP?

14:03:32 <danbri> zakim, EricP is DanBri

14:03:34 <Zakim> +DanBri; got it

14:03:37 <DanConn> ah

14:03:47 <danbri> zakim, who is muted

14:03:48 <Zakim> danbri, you need to end that query with '?'

14:03:50 <Zakim> +DanC

14:03:51 <danbri> zakim, who is muted?

14:03:52 <Zakim> I see no one muted

14:03:57 * DanConn wonders if that should have been "is temporarily DanBri"

14:03:58 <em> zakim, ??P10 is BrianM

14:03:59 <Zakim> +BrianM; got it

14:04:08 <em> zakim, ??P14 is SteveP

14:04:09 <Zakim> +SteveP; got it

14:04:15 * danbri wonders how to fix the temporarily

14:04:36 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean

14:04:39 * DanConn suggests, under "4: Next telecon 23rd Aug 2002" choosing a scribe for next week, with nominations from Zakim

14:04:48 <DanConn> Zakim, pick a scribe

14:04:49 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DanC

14:04:51 <DanConn> Zakim, pick a scribe

14:04:52 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose EricM

14:05:06 <mdean> Mike Dean is scribing

14:05:12 <DanConn> DanConn has changed the topic to: RDFCore 16Aug. scribe: MikeD

14:05:25 <DanConn> Zakim, who's on the phone?

14:05:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see BrianM, Manola, EricM, PatrickS, SteveP, DanBri, DanC, Mike_Dean

14:05:27 <danbri> zakim, who is here?

14:05:28 <em> zakim, who is here?

14:05:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see BrianM, Manola, EricM, PatrickS, SteveP, DanBri, DanC, Mike_Dean

14:05:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see BrianM, Manola, EricM, PatrickS, SteveP, DanBri, DanC, Mike_Dean

14:05:31 <Zakim> On IRC I see DanConn, mdean, RRSAgent, Zakim, em, bwm, danbri, logger_1

14:06:11 <mdean> regrets: Jos, Aaron, Jan Grant, Sergey, Dave Beckett, Jeremy Carroll

14:06:40 <mdean> Frank Manola proposes WG sing happy birthday to Frank

14:06:41 <danbri> zakim, mute danbri

14:06:42 <Zakim> DanBri should now be muted

14:07:08 <mdean> next telecon same time next week

14:07:19 <mdean> no other agenda changes

14:07:33 <DanConn> Zakim, pick a scribe

14:07:35 <em> zakim, pick a victim.

14:07:35 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Manola

14:07:36 * danbri waves happy birthday to Frank (you wouldn't want me to sing...)

14:07:36 <Zakim> I don't understand 'pick a victim.', em. Try /msg Zakim help

14:07:38 <DanConn> Zakim, pick a scribe

14:07:40 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Manola

14:07:41 <DanConn> Zakim, pick a scribe

14:07:43 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose EricM

14:07:45 <DanConn> Zakim, pick a scribe

14:07:46 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose SteveP

14:08:31 * DanConn didn't mean to get too meta here

14:08:45 <DanConn> Zakim, pick a scribe

14:08:46 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose EricM

14:08:48 <DanConn> Zakim, pick a scribe

14:08:49 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Mike_Dean

14:08:51 <DanConn> Zakim, pick a scribe

14:08:53 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DanBri (muted)

14:08:56 <mdean> Eric Miller will scribe next week if he's here (babysitting)

14:09:16 <mdean> reviewing action list

14:09:40 <mdean> minutes of July 19 missing?

14:09:41 <danbri> zakim, unmute danbri

14:09:42 <Zakim> DanBri should no longer be muted

14:10:17 <DanConn> 19 July IRC log: http://www.w3.org/2002/07/19-rdfcore-irc#T14-54-10

14:10:46 <mdean> DanBri: split between 2 authors with IRC access vs. time

14:11:06 <em>http://www.w3.org/2002/07/19-rdfcore-irc.html

14:11:08 <mdean> IRC log was submitted and accepted as minutes

14:11:51 <mdean> approval of last week's minutes postponed due to late availability

14:12:11 <mdean> Brian will check IRC log against his action list

14:12:34 * DanConn suggests calling for a 2nd before calling for objections

14:12:38 <DanConn> Zakim, who's talking?

14:12:39 <danbri> zakim, drop danbri

14:12:40 <Zakim> DanBri is being disconnected

14:12:40 <Zakim> -DanBri

14:12:42 <mdean> reviewing long list state of completed actions

14:12:50 <Zakim> DanConn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: DanC (29%)

14:13:02 * DanConn suggests calling for a 2nd before calling for objections

14:13:13 * danbri hears a terrifying screeching noise in his phone; suspects fax user

14:13:45 <mdean> no objections to actions being closed off

14:13:46 <DanConn> === 8: daml:collection test case - volunteer to complete

14:14:19 <mdean> DanC has anyone implemented parseType="Literal"?

14:14:23 <mdean> bwm: ARP has

14:14:49 <mdean> EricM: validator produces ntriples

14:15:10 <mdean> ACTION: bwm to complete test case

14:15:11 * RRSAgent records action 1

14:15:15 <Zakim> +DanBri

14:15:49 <mdean> item 9:

14:16:34 <mdean> DanC: dark triple request from WebOnt may have gone away

14:16:56 <danbri> Should note that there is active discussion on www-rdf-logic about layering amongst Horrocks, Guha and other WG members

14:17:01 * DanConn can't figure out how to get the validator to spit out n-triples

14:17:02 <mdean> ACTION: bwm ask SWCG to check priority of dark triples requirement

14:17:03 * RRSAgent records action 2

14:17:06 <mdean> item 10:

14:17:22 * DanConn figured it out

14:17:37 <mdean> em: wanted to confirm with bwm as series editor

14:17:45 <mdean> em: additional pubrules cleanups, etc.

14:17:50 <DanConn> validator looks buggy w.r.t. parseType="Literal"

14:17:57 <mdean> bwm: go ahead

14:18:45 <mdean> em: WG previously approved publication

14:18:56 <mdean> ACTION: em publish GUIDE

14:18:57 * RRSAgent records action 3

14:19:06 <mdean> additional regrets: Graham

14:19:24 <mdean> bwm: on 19th, discussed detailed review of individual documents

14:19:37 <mdean> em: WG didn't get to this

14:20:28 <mdean> em: editors indicated that they would all need to include material on datatypes - more than an editorial change for last call - need to integrate and review schedule

14:20:51 <mdean> em: would require 2 reviews: current and with datatypes

14:22:12 <mdean> Frank: PRIMER doesn't yet address parseType="Collection" since it hasn't appeared in SYNTAX yet

14:22:53 <mdean> Frank: newer draft of July 25 on server now

14:23:25 <DanConn> "on the server"... which server? where?

14:23:27 <mdean> DanBri: more work needed before review - would like another week

14:23:31 * DanConn can't find primer draft from WG home

14:24:00 <DanConn> #

14:24:01 * new Primer version Frank Manola (Thu, Jul 25 2002) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jul/0156.html

14:24:10 <mdean> review SCHEMA week of August 30

14:24:19 <mdean> PRIMER also August 30

14:25:12 <DanConn> 0156 -> http://www.w3.org/2001/09/rdfprimer/rdf-primer-20020725.html

14:26:00 <Zakim> +Pat_Hayes

14:26:59 <mdean> Pat: Model Theory waiting for data type resolution

14:27:36 <mdean> Frank: DanBri may want to look at current PRIMER re schema

14:28:14 <mdean> item 12: namespace test case / vs. #

14:28:26 <mdean> APPROVED

14:28:48 <mdean> item 13: review of OWL Working Drafts

14:29:28 <mdean> Pat: mentioned on WebOnt telecon yesterday that this is not a formal request

14:29:58 <mdean> suggest emailing individual comments directly

14:31:05 <mdean> some ambiguity about data types in Working Drafts: waiting for RDF Core or not

14:31:36 <mdean> also bring any relevant comments to RDF Core WG

14:31:48 <mdean> recent TAG discussions

14:32:22 <mdean> DanC: based on detailed comments, lots of changes likely

14:32:45 <mdean> DanC: TAG hasn't decided that RDF is broken and we need to respond

14:32:54 <danbri> re webont, see http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-absyn/ [[

14:32:57 <danbri> As the RDF Core WG has not yet produced a feature for datatyping in RDF this document includes its own solution for datatyping, assuming that issue 5.8 will be resolved in favour of OWL having its own datatyping facilities.

14:33:00 <danbri> ]]

14:33:24 <danbri> (sorry, didn't add this before we moved into TAG agenda item)

14:33:28 <mdean> issue 14 not resolved by this document

14:33:33 <mdean> item 15: datatypes

14:34:53 <mdean> bwm: 2 things outstanding: 1) replace local type idiom bNodes with xsi:type in Literal node

14:35:04 <mdean> bwm: implementers seem to like this

14:35:49 <DanConn> "two sources of information"?

14:36:15 <mdean> Pat: structured literals not inherent problem for Model Theory, but requires looking at both literals and graph vs. just graph

14:36:35 <mdean> Pat: no serious objections

14:37:05 <mdean> DanC: replacement vs. supporting both?

14:38:39 <mdean> DanC: received some negative feedback on incorporating xsd:date

14:39:54 <mdean> DanC: quad is a dis-server, really a union: string, language-qualified string, XML blob, etc.

14:40:12 <mdean> Patrick: this is essentially a third proposal

14:40:35 <mdean> Pat: union is perhaps closer to Guha's original proposal

14:42:12 * DanConn q+

14:42:13 * Zakim sees DanConn on the speaker queue

14:42:15 <mdean> bwm: second decision: some fixed set of datatypes vs. extensible set identified by URI

14:42:25 <mdean> bwm: third issue: tidiness

14:44:07 <mdean> DanC: proposals need to address each of these issues, but deciding issues independently may not produce a good result (based on XML experience)

14:44:48 <mdean> em: not looking at this from a holistic perspective

14:45:05 <mdean> need to also look at CC/PP and other use cases

14:45:18 <mdean> DanC objects to compartmentalizing discussion

14:45:23 <mdean> bwm: good point

14:46:10 <mdean> bwm: should we ask "datatyping subgroup" (Sergey, Pat, Patrick) to work this into a proposal?

14:47:21 <DanConn> so... have the 3 datatypes editors proposed something to the WG? pointer?

14:48:10 <mdean> Patrick: this is an unnecessary sidetrack (minor issue) vs. more important issues such as tidiness

14:48:48 <mdean> Pat: this proposal won't solve the big problems

14:49:21 <mdean> DanC: orthogonal issue, but may solve a big problem from the user perspective

14:50:04 <mdean> Patrick opposed to built-in native types such as int

14:50:40 <mdean> or xsd:int

14:51:29 <mdean> Patrick's latest ++-- proposal: RDF should be agnostic, just providing mechanism

14:52:20 <mdean> Patrick happy with datatype nodes, but concerned about nature of label and constraints upon it

14:52:20 * DanConn q+ to say: I'm interested in *anything* that (a) all three of PatH, Sergey, and PeterS agree, and (b) explicitly addresses the use cases we've seen: dublin core, cc/pp, DAML. with RDF/XML examples, and maybe n-triples correspondence.

14:52:21 * Zakim sees DanConn on the speaker queue

14:54:02 <em> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/ -> # Datatyping Discussion Document (editor's working draft) ... no link

14:55:06 <em> patrick, can you send a link?

14:55:48 <mdean> ACTION: patrick send URI for latest draft circulated to group

14:55:49 * RRSAgent records action 4

15:00:13 <mdean> Pat: local idiom does impact long-range (global) datatyping -- e.g. decision to use string in absence of xsi:type

15:00:41 <mdean> Patrick: CC/PP wants to use rdfs:range to type literals

15:00:57 <DanConn> q?

15:00:59 * Zakim sees DanConn on the speaker queue

15:01:15 <em> q+

15:01:16 * Zakim sees DanConn, Em on the speaker queue

15:02:42 <mdean> bwm: are there other use cases besides rdfs:range where we would get type and values separately

15:02:58 <DanConn> hmm... you have to type rdf:parseType="Literal" every time.

15:03:08 <DanConn> why not xsd:integer?

15:03:45 <Zakim> -BrianM

15:03:56 <DanConn> did we really lose BrianM?

15:04:14 <mdean> mdean: local Restrictions are an example

15:04:16 <em> so RDF had a requirement/desire/hope not to rely on RDF Schemas///

15:04:26 <mdean> ACTION: MDean to write-up use case

15:04:27 <em> s /BrianM/SteveP

15:04:27 * RRSAgent records action 5

15:04:37 <mdean> Patrick: CC/PP is also such a use case

15:04:47 <em> i think we lost SteveP

15:05:12 * em notes he didn't finish his scentence re the point he was making wrt RDF and Schemas

15:05:16 <DanConn> q?

15:05:17 * Zakim sees DanConn, Em on the speaker queue

15:07:57 <danbri> timecheck: Fri Aug 16 11:07:15 EDT 2002

15:08:22 <DanConn> q?

15:08:24 * Zakim sees DanConn, Em on the speaker queue

15:08:30 * danbri proposes we extend the meeting to 15 past

15:10:54 * DanConn notes brian did say he'd get back to me

15:11:00 <DanConn> q?

15:11:01 * Zakim sees DanConn, Em on the speaker queue

15:11:22 <mdean> ACTION: bwm to summarize responses from community on datatype question for next week

15:11:23 * RRSAgent records action 6

15:11:28 <DanConn> ack DanC

15:11:29 <Zakim> DanConn, you wanted to say: I'm interested in *anything* that (a) all three of PatH, Sergey, and PeterS agree, and (b) explicitly addresses the use cases we've seen: dublin core,

15:11:32 <Zakim> ... cc/pp, DAML. with RDF/XML examples, and maybe n-triples correspondence.

15:11:33 * Zakim sees Em on the speaker queue

15:13:38 <mdean> Sergey off for next 2 weeks

15:14:08 <mdean> em: could Mike or Guha represent his views temporarily?

15:14:37 <mdean> em: able to provide teleconferencing for small groups that want to discuss datatypes

15:17:13 <mdean> bwm: meeting closed

15:18:13 <em> a example for the dublincore group would be how to represent a date in iso8601

15:18:51 <em> <dc:date><xx:is8601><rdf:value>2002-03-04</rdf:value></xx:iso8601></dc:date> ....

15:18:54 <danbri> yeah. Similar for RSS, events, calendaring.

15:18:54 <em> or...

15:19:09 <em> <dc:date xsi:type="xx:iso8601>2002-03-04</dc:date>

15:19:10 <em> or..

15:19:17 <em> this would be helpfule

15:20:04 <em> come up with a proposal based on all of the evidence, present this to the group and ask how much this would hurt

15:20:27 <em> my guess is that the group is simply looking for an indication of how to do this... and they *will* do this

15:20:51 <em> "the group" includes DC, RSS, etc.

15:21:14 <em> hmm... Adobe might be as well

15:23:08 <danbri> Mozilla/Netscape-AOL have a working practice for RDF datatyping

15:23:18 <Zakim> -Manola

15:23:29 <danbri> Zakim, DanBri is EricP

15:23:30 <Zakim> +EricP; got it

15:23:38 <em> ??

15:23:41 <danbri> Zakim, EricP is temporarily DanBri

15:23:42 <Zakim> +DanBri; got it

15:23:46 <em> ah

15:23:52 <danbri> :)

15:25:29 <em> zakim, who is here?

15:25:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see EricM, PatrickS, SteveP, DanC, Mike_Dean, DanBri, Pat_Hayes

15:25:32 <Zakim> On IRC I see bwm_, DanConn, mdean, RRSAgent, Zakim, em, danbri, logger_1

15:26:04 <em> zakim, SteveP is BrianM

15:26:05 <Zakim> +BrianM; got it

15:47:45 <em> folks, i'm going to have to run.... thnks for the bar talk

15:51:30 * danbri heads off

15:51:33 <Zakim> -DanBri

15:53:19 <Zakim> -EricM

16:18:57 <Zakim> -DanC

16:19:29 <Zakim> -BrianM

16:19:29 <Zakim> -PatrickS

16:19:32 <Zakim> -Pat_Hayes

16:19:34 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean

16:19:35 <Zakim> SW_RDFCore()10:00AM has ended