13:00:04 <logger_1> logger_1 has joined #rdfcore
13:00:04 <irc.w3.org> Users on #rdfcore: @logger_1 
13:32:31 <bwm> bwm has joined #rdfcore
13:32:49 <DaveB> DaveB has joined #rdfcore
13:51:07 <AaronSw> AaronSw has joined #rdfcore
13:51:15 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfcore
13:51:17 <AaronSw> zakim, this will be rdfc
13:51:18 <Zakim> ok, AaronSw
13:55:10 <bwm> G'day Aaron
13:56:20 <Zakim> SW_RDFCore()10:00AM matches both rdfco and rdfc
13:57:22 <Zakim> SW_RDFCore()10:00AM matches both rdfco and rdfc
13:59:14 <DaveB> we've dialed in
13:59:23 <danb_lap> danb_lap has joined #rdfcore
13:59:28 <danb_lap> zakim, this is rdf_Core
13:59:29 <Zakim> sorry, danb_lap, I do not see a conference named 'rdf_Core'
13:59:40 <danb_lap> zakim, this will be RDFCore
13:59:41 <Zakim> ok, danb_lap, I see SW_RDFCore()10:00AM already started
13:59:50 <danb_lap> zakim, who is here?
13:59:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see FrankM, ??P1, ??P2
13:59:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see danb_lap, Zakim, AaronSw, DaveB, bwm, logger_1
14:00:09 <danb_lap> zakim, ??P2 is Steve
14:00:10 <Zakim> +Steve; got it
14:00:21 <danb_lap> zakim, ??P1 is ILRT
14:00:22 <Zakim> +ILRT; got it
14:00:31 <danb_lap> zakim, ILRT holds bwm, DaveB, JanG, DanBri
14:00:32 <Zakim> +Bwm, DaveB, JanG, DanBri; got it
14:00:38 <danb_lap> zakim, who is here?
14:00:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see FrankM, ILRT, Steve
14:00:39 <Zakim> ILRT has Bwm, DaveB, JanG, DanBri
14:00:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see danb_lap, Zakim, AaronSw, DaveB, bwm, logger_1
14:01:19 <AaronSw> odd. My phone is refusing to turn on
14:01:41 <Zakim> +??P5
14:01:44 <DanC> DanC has joined #rdfcore
14:02:06 <Zakim> + +1.850.202.aaaa - is perhaps PatH?
14:02:08 <danb_lap> zakim, ??P5 is PatrickS
14:02:09 <Zakim> +PatrickS; got it
14:02:24 <danb_lap> Zakim, who is here?
14:02:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see FrankM, ILRT, Steve, PatrickS, PatH?
14:02:25 <Zakim> ILRT has Bwm, DaveB, JanG, DanBri
14:02:26 <Zakim> On IRC I see DanC, danb_lap, Zakim, AaronSw, DaveB, bwm, logger_1
14:02:27 <DanC> agenda + 19Sep http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Sep/0182.html
14:02:28 <Zakim> * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
14:02:34 <Zakim> +??P7
14:02:46 <danb_lap> zakim, PatH? is PatH
14:02:47 <Zakim> +PatH; got it
14:02:56 <danb_lap> zakim, ??P7 is Graham
14:02:57 <Zakim> +Graham; got it
14:03:01 <AaronSw> Zakim, what's your phone number
14:03:02 <Zakim> I don't understand 'what's your phone number', AaronSw.  Try /msg Zakim help
14:03:10 <gk> gk has joined #rdfcore
14:03:31 <Zakim> +AaronSw
14:04:59 <jjc> jjc has joined #rdfcore
14:05:06 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
14:05:21 <Zakim> +??P10
14:05:28 <jjc> Zakim, ??P10 is Jeremy.
14:05:30 <Zakim> +Jeremy.; got it
14:05:31 <AaronSw> zakim, ??P10 is jjc
14:05:32 <Zakim> sorry, AaronSw, I do not recognize a party named '??P10'
14:05:37 <DanC> * DanC is having trouble dialing in
14:05:59 <jjc> Zakim, who is on the call?
14:06:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see FrankM, ILRT, Steve, PatrickS, PatH, Graham, AaronSw, Mike_Dean, Jeremy.
14:06:01 <Zakim> ILRT has Bwm, DaveB, JanG, DanBri
14:06:06 <danb_lap> zakim, ??P10 is jjc
14:06:07 <Zakim> sorry, danb_lap, I do not recognize a party named '??P10'
14:06:13 <Zakim> +DanC
14:06:23 <danb_lap> ah; zakim already knew.
14:06:33 <jjc> jjc is now known as jjcscribe
14:07:10 <danb_lap> === RDFCore 2002-09-20 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Sep/0182.html
14:07:17 <DanC> Zakim, pick a victim
14:07:18 <danb_lap> * danb_lap tries to change /topic, fails
14:07:18 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose PatH
14:07:29 <DanC> Zakim, pick a victim
14:07:30 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Graham
14:07:36 <DanC> Zakim, pick a victim
14:07:37 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose PatrickS
14:07:40 <DanC> Zakim, pick a victim
14:07:41 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Bwm
14:08:02 <DanC> * DanC thought he heard danbri volunteer
14:08:05 <DanC> Zakim, pick a victim
14:08:06 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Jeremy.
14:08:07 <danb_lap> * danb_lap didn't
14:08:18 <jjcscribe> Scribe next week: Graham - but might send regrets.
14:08:36 <jjcscribe> Agenda review:
14:08:46 <jjcscribe> Regrets: Jos, EricM
14:09:03 <jjcscribe> Agenda OK, telecon OK
14:09:08 <Zakim> +??P11
14:09:13 <jjcscribe> minutes approved
14:09:19 <danb_lap> zakim, ??P11 is Sergey
14:09:20 <jjcscribe> Zakim, ?p11 is sergey.
14:09:20 <Zakim> +Sergey; got it
14:09:21 <Zakim> sorry, jjcscribe, I do not recognize a party named '?p11'
14:09:38 <jjcscribe> complete actions ok.
14:10:19 <jjcscribe> (ACTION7 went to ACTION7A)
14:11:15 <jjcscribe> namespaces: DanC "namespace is a collection of names"
14:12:46 <gk> Jeremy points out that RDF abstract model uses URIs only, not namespaces
14:12:48 <jjcscribe> jeremy: we don't use the namespace abstract model
14:12:57 <jjcscribe> danc; we can't see their abstract model
14:13:07 <jjcscribe> agendum: semantics of untyped literals
14:13:38 <jjcscribe> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-names-editor/2002Sep/0011.html
14:13:44 <jjcscribe> was the namespaces uri
14:14:00 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:14:04 <danb_lap> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:14:04 <jjcscribe> bwm: lets go to straw poll.
14:14:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see FrankM, ILRT, Steve, PatrickS (muted), PatH, Graham, AaronSw, Mike_Dean, Jeremy., DanC, Sergey
14:14:09 <Zakim> ILRT has Bwm, DaveB, JanG, DanBri
14:14:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see FrankM, ILRT, Steve, PatrickS (muted), PatH, Graham, AaronSw, Mike_Dean, Jeremy., DanC, Sergey
14:14:17 <Zakim> ILRT has Bwm, DaveB, JanG, DanBri
14:14:25 <jjcscribe> tidy vs untidy
14:14:41 <AaronSw> * AaronSw wonders if who's speaking could be used to do a "press 1 now to vote for tidy" thing
14:14:49 <mdean> mdean has joined #rdfcore
14:15:49 <DanC> poll: U A A T A U T U T U U T A 
14:15:52 <sergey> sergey has joined #rdfcore
14:16:02 <DanC> poll: U A A T A U T U T U U T A 
14:16:24 <DanC> * DanC doesn't see much consensus
14:16:27 <jjcscribe> 5 to 4 in favour of untidy with 4 abstentions
14:16:42 <AaronSw> steve: tidy
14:17:00 <AaronSw> daveb: i've implemented tidy, but can see advantages of other
14:17:02 <AaronSw> bwm: you're abstaining
14:17:33 <AaronSw> sergey: i see tidy conceptually but think we'd do untidy if we do it right [?]
14:17:54 <gk> * gk Can we decide to not decide?
14:18:12 <AaronSw> jang: patricks compelling, could live with either, existing imps like tidy... what sergey says
14:18:19 <DanC> * DanC thinks that's another way to do the poll: ask each person for (a) their preference, (b) anything they cannot live with
14:18:20 <AaronSw> bwm: that's an untidy
14:18:24 <jjcscribe> q+
14:18:26 <Zakim> * Zakim sees Jjcscribe on the speaker queue
14:18:34 <AaronSw> * AaronSw thinks danc's proposal sounds like condorcet
14:18:45 <danb_lap> what's condorcet?
14:19:10 <AaronSw> the objectively best voting system. each voter ranks the things they can live with in order of preference
14:19:22 <AaronSw> and then you just run off each option to see who likes it best
14:20:01 <DanC> huh? what syntax would one use for a bnode for the type of a literal?
14:20:06 <jjcscribe> PatH: we could allow bnodes as datatype, and then we get both tidy and untidy
14:20:27 <gk> q+ to say in response to Pat that bnode datatypes sounds rather like untidy option
14:20:28 <AaronSw> DanC, _:b"foo" has been discussed
14:20:29 <Zakim> * Zakim sees Jjcscribe, Gk on the speaker queue
14:20:37 <AaronSw> oh, did you mean in rdf/xml
14:20:43 <DanC> yeah in rdf/xml
14:22:02 <AaronSw> pat: we could put datatype matching in the query system, not rdf
14:22:03 <AaronSw> +1
14:22:04 <Zakim> * Zakim wonders where 1 is
14:22:19 <DanC> er... if the app assumes something contrary to the spec, it's busted.
14:22:19 <AaronSw> patrick: then we have different stuff at different levels
14:22:49 <DanC> have we heard from Adobe on this matter?
14:22:55 <bwm> no
14:23:29 <DanC> * DanC would like the chair to collect "can't live with" data
14:23:35 <DanC> Zakim, who's talking?
14:23:44 <bwm> getting there
14:23:46 <Zakim> DanC, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: FrankM (64%), ILRT (95%), PatrickS (53%), PatH (4%), Jeremy. (50%)
14:23:55 <AaronSw> danbri: dublin core won't break if we go tidy
14:24:01 <AaronSw> pat: point about adobe well taken
14:24:05 <jjcscribe> zakim, mute Jeremy.
14:24:07 <Zakim> Jeremy. should now be muted
14:24:24 <bwm> ack jjc
14:24:25 <Zakim> * Zakim sees Gk on the speaker queue
14:24:26 <jjcscribe> zakim, unmute jeremy
14:24:27 <Zakim> Jeremy. should no longer be muted
14:24:40 <AaronSw> ack jer
14:24:41 <Zakim> * Zakim sees Gk on the speaker queue
14:24:48 <DanC> pls let the record show that we haven't heard from adobe, and that danbri doesn't think we can conclude much about their implementation.
14:25:09 <danb_lap> Yes, JJC pls ack that for the minutes.
14:25:52 <jjcscribe> jack
14:25:58 <AaronSw> jjc: i'm prepared to switch sides to make a decision
14:25:59 <AaronSw> ( ^ sounds like we should collect live-with data)
14:26:07 <danb_lap> also that RDFS never was a REC, while M+S was; my three M+S implementations break if we go Untidy; my draft RDF Schemas don't if we go tidy.
14:26:07 <jjcscribe> jjc - I am happy to change sides to make a decision
14:26:09 <DanC> er... are we having a design session? or are we deciding between two already-specified alternatives?
14:26:34 <danb_lap> DanC, are you on the call or just irc?
14:26:38 <DanC> I'm on the phone
14:26:41 <gk> q-
14:26:42 <Zakim> * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
14:27:51 <gk> q+ to say I don't think Pat's solution helps, but I am prepared to change to make a decision
14:27:52 <Zakim> * Zakim sees Gk on the speaker queue
14:28:03 <DanC> * DanC notes danbri's out of order; the chair asked if anybody had changed sides
14:28:27 <danb_lap> No, he asked if they'd changed views.
14:28:35 <jjcscribe> mike: please clarify?
14:28:49 <jjcscribe> mike: global typing in pat's proposal
14:28:51 <AaronSw> danbri: untidy seems cleaner, but tidy is more practical since we don't have the time to design untidy
14:29:46 <jjcscribe> pat: one response to my proposal was "very nice but doesn't work in xml"
14:29:48 <bwm> ack gk
14:29:50 <Zakim> Gk, you wanted to say I don't think Pat's solution helps, but I am prepared to change to make a decision
14:29:51 <Zakim> * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
14:29:55 <danb_lap> [call-process] Folks, we're hearing a lot of noise, echo. Can people try muting themselves locally or w/ Zakim unless talking?
14:30:04 <jjcscribe> zakim, mute jeremy.
14:30:05 <Zakim> Jeremy. should now be muted
14:30:23 <jjcscribe> gk: it comes down to what we are doing now.
14:30:35 <jjcscribe> last lineis wrong
14:30:54 <jjcscribe> gk: it comes down to what are we going to do with the RDF that is already out there.
14:31:09 <DanC> * DanC wonders who's in the busy room?
14:31:21 <jjcscribe> zakim, who is talking?
14:31:21 <AaronSw> patricks is on a boat
14:31:33 <bwm> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:31:33 <Zakim> jjcscribe, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: FrankM (55%), ILRT (70%), AaronSw (4%)
14:31:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see FrankM, ILRT, Steve, PatrickS (muted), PatH, Graham, AaronSw, Mike_Dean, Jeremy. (muted), DanC, Sergey
14:31:36 <Zakim> ILRT has Bwm, DaveB, JanG, DanBri
14:32:31 <jjcscribe> zakim, unmute jeremy.
14:32:32 <Zakim> Jeremy. should no longer be muted
14:32:51 <danb_lap> * danb_lap hears strange b/g noise (sratching...)
14:32:58 <jjcscribe> zakim, mute jeremy.
14:32:59 <Zakim> Jeremy. should now be muted
14:34:05 <DanC> poll tidy/untidy: U T U U T U T U T T U A U
14:34:07 <AaronSw> U T U~ U T U T U T T U A U
14:34:29 <jjcscribe> DanC can't live with Untidy.
14:34:53 <jjcscribe> DanBri can't live with.
14:34:58 <DanC> * DanC didn't hear the chair as for a speech
14:35:03 <jjcscribe> (Dan2 both w3c)
14:35:09 <jjcscribe> Patrick can't live with tidy
14:35:10 <danb_lap> I said that I could't; DanC noted that objections are per-Org
14:36:22 <sergey> +q
14:36:23 <Zakim> * Zakim wonders where q is
14:36:46 <sergey> q+
14:36:47 <Zakim> * Zakim sees Sergey on the speaker queue
14:38:33 <DanC> * DanC asks that the chair either put the question or move on to the next agendum
14:38:44 <Zakim> -AaronSw
14:39:23 <jjcscribe> bwm: i don't know any implementations that have implemented untidy
14:39:52 <DanC> * DanC asks that the chair ask folks not to point out, again, things they've pointed out N times already
14:39:53 <gk> How many implementations have included entailment?
14:40:09 <danb_lap> (aside) hmm, http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-rdf-syntax-19990222/fig9.gif seems to illustrate Tidy quite graphically.
14:40:50 <Zakim> +AaronSw
14:40:56 <jjcscribe> (aside) that's muddled with reifiication
14:41:03 <danb_lap> (indeed)
14:42:07 <jjcscribe> danbri: schema never reached rec, M&S did.
14:42:09 <DanC> * DanC q+ to make a point of order: either put the question or let's please move on to the next agendum
14:42:10 <Zakim> * Zakim sees Sergey, DanC on the speaker queue
14:42:59 <jjcscribe> jan: i would implement untidy the way that Pat described tidy
14:43:13 <bwm> ack sergey
14:43:14 <Zakim> * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
14:43:20 <bwm> ack danc
14:43:21 <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to make a point of order: either put the question or let's please move on to the next agendum
14:43:22 <Zakim> * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
14:43:27 <jjcscribe> sergey: introduce a new node with identity
14:43:51 <bwm> zakim, who is here?
14:43:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see FrankM, ILRT, Steve, PatrickS, PatH, Graham, Mike_Dean, Jeremy. (muted), DanC, Sergey, AaronSw
14:43:53 <Zakim> ILRT has Bwm, DaveB, JanG, DanBri
14:43:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see sergey, mdean, jjcscribe, gk, DanC, danb_lap, Zakim, AaronSw, DaveB, bwm, logger_1
14:44:06 <bwm> <age>10</age>
14:44:08 <danb_lap> (baby b/g noise)
14:44:11 <jjcscribe> Chair: non-datatyped literals tidy or untidy.
14:44:55 <jjcscribe> The question: where you have an rdf;descipriton element containing a property element of <age>10</age> is that tidy or untidy.
14:45:27 <jjcscribe> DanC: this is two options and you are going to take a majority?
14:45:32 <jjcscribe> Frank: untidy.
14:45:38 <DanC> in the XML WGs, the chair could only put yes/no questions.
14:45:52 <jjcscribe> ILRT Dave, Jan: tidy
14:45:58 <jjcscribe> Steve: tidy
14:46:05 <jjcscribe> PatrickS: untidy
14:46:21 <jjcscribe> Pat: tidy
14:46:25 <DanC> abstentions are in order, btw.
14:46:31 <jjcscribe> Graham: untidy
14:46:34 <jjcscribe> Mike: untidy
14:46:40 <jjcscribe> Jeremny: untidy
14:46:53 <jjcscribe> Zakim, unmute Jeremy
14:46:54 <Zakim> Jeremy. should no longer be muted
14:46:55 <jjcscribe> .
14:47:03 <jjcscribe> DanC, tidy.
14:47:09 <jjcscribe> Sergey, tidy.
14:47:17 <jjcscribe> Aaron, tidy.
14:47:24 <jjcscribe> Sergey, untidy (correction)
14:48:03 <jjcscribe> Vote: untidy 7, tidy 5.
14:48:11 <jjcscribe> DECIDED: untidy semantics.
14:48:22 <jjcscribe> DanC has outstanding dissent.
14:48:31 <danb_lap> (...for untyped literals)
14:48:38 <jjcscribe> (mistake) Vote: 6 to 5
14:50:35 <gk> Agendum 9.
14:50:37 <DanC> er... any actions resulting from the datatyping decision? I guess the editors already have relevant actions?
14:50:47 <bwm> yes
14:50:50 <gk> Document issue: http://www.ninebynine.org/wip/DocIssues/RDF-Concepts/009-DatatypingSyntax.html
14:51:44 <jjcscribe> Question about xml:lang on typed literals
14:51:50 <Zakim> -AaronSw
14:51:53 <jjcscribe> DanC: literals are unions
14:52:09 <jjcscribe> DanC: integers don't have langs, plain strings don't have langs
14:53:08 <jjcscribe> Jeremy: xml:lang="en" xsd:string="foo" the lang is lost
14:53:14 <jjcscribe> Patrcik: I have problems with that
14:53:22 <gk> q+ to say I think M&S does have language on string (non-XML) literals
14:53:23 <Zakim> * Zakim sees Gk on the speaker queue
14:54:00 <DanC> <rdfs:label xml:lang="en">knob</rdfs> <- that has a lang thingy, no?
14:54:11 <jjcscribe> Patrick: we have deployed code that relies on the language tagging
14:54:16 <DaveB> yes, but patrickS is discussing a datatyped literal
14:54:34 <DaveB> <foo:bar rdf:datatype="uri of something">blah</>
14:54:35 <DanC> er... yeah, if you have a datatyped string, no langy.
14:54:40 <DaveB> he says he needs it
14:54:48 <bwm> ack gk
14:54:49 <Zakim> Gk, you wanted to say I think M&S does have language on string (non-XML) literals
14:54:50 <Zakim> * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
14:55:01 <jjcscribe> PatH: the lang component can be in the graph and the l2v mapping just pulls out the string
14:55:10 <gk> <rdf:li xml:lang="en">The Coolest Web Page</rdf:li>
14:55:11 <gk> <rdf:li xml:lang="it">Il Pagio di Web Fuba</rdf:li>
14:55:42 <gk> M&S example from sect 7.2
14:55:56 <jjcscribe> jeremy to circulate draft
14:56:09 <jjcscribe> next agendum: changes to MT
14:56:51 <jjcscribe> PatH I am not very sure at the  moment
14:57:16 <jjcscribe> This things are visible in tests
14:57:36 <jjcscribe> ACTION jjc Produce test case domaina nd range.
14:58:06 <jjcscribe> agendum 11:
14:58:14 <jjcscribe> gk: I have an action
14:58:25 <jjcscribe> danC: let's keep it omn the agenda for next week.
14:59:06 <Zakim> -Steve
14:59:07 <jjcscribe> ACTION gk Post references to his previous actions on "assertion"
14:59:13 <DanC> note that the concepts issues list doesn't have the same status as the WG issues list.
14:59:17 <jjcscribe> meeting closes
14:59:19 <Zakim> -Sergey
14:59:20 <Zakim> -PatH
14:59:35 <jjcscribe> Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:59:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see FrankM, ILRT, PatrickS (muted), Graham, Mike_Dean (muted), Jeremy., DanC
14:59:38 <Zakim> ILRT has Bwm, DaveB, JanG, DanBri
15:06:23 <jjcscribe> REQUEST jan (from danc) please do datatype test case (literal to bnode)
15:07:17 <jjcscribe> test case showing CC/PP and RDF agreemnt
15:08:27 <gk> gk has quit
15:11:15 <Zakim> -Jeremy.
15:11:25 <jjcscribe> jjcscribe has quit
15:11:34 <sergey> sergey has quit
15:20:44 <Zakim> -PatrickS
15:20:49 <Zakim> -ILRT
15:20:50 <Zakim> -Graham
15:20:51 <Zakim> -DanC
15:20:52 <Zakim> -FrankM
15:29:09 <bwm> bwm has quit
15:29:17 <DaveB> DaveB has quit
15:49:35 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
15:49:37 <Zakim> SW_RDFCore()10:00AM has ended
16:12:01 <danb_lap> danb_lap has quit
16:15:47 <danb_lap> danb_lap has joined #rdfcore
16:20:38 <mdean> mdean has quit
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