13:01:03 logger has joined #rdfcore 13:01:03 Users on #rdfcore: logger @sandro 13:36:30 bwm has joined #rdfcore 13:46:18 bwm has quit 13:51:35 AaronSw has joined #rdfcore 13:51:44 Zakim has joined #rdfcore 13:51:50 zakim, this will be rdf 13:51:51 ok, AaronSw 13:52:12 bwm has joined #rdfcore 13:52:53 jjc has joined #rdfcore 13:53:00 hi aaron 13:53:05 jjc is now known as jjcscribe 13:53:05 hi jjc 13:53:31 hi brian - my parcel man took linger than I expected, and I wanted to go to habitat 13:53:39 so here i am down at ILRT 13:53:56 I got your voice mail; I would have joined you but didn't have time. 13:54:16 And I'm trying to sync up with a visitor from crl after the telecon. 13:54:31 T-300 13:54:32 who's that? 13:55:07 (is it bad form to have changed my nick before the official start?) 13:55:40 Beth someone; put herself in my diary - she's going round talking to lots of folks. I stood her up yesterday by accident so feel I want to make up. 13:56:06 re form: I have absolutely no idea. 13:56:09 DaveB has joined #rdfcore 13:57:08 * bwm waves to Sandro who he has not seen/talked to for some time 13:57:32 brb 13:57:38 SW_RDFCore()10:00AM has now started 13:57:40 +FrankM 13:57:56 em has joined #rdfcore 13:58:06 RRSAgent has joined #rdfcore 13:58:07 * RRSAgent is logging 13:58:19 em has changed the topic to: rdfcore 2002-10-11 teleconference 13:58:29 +??P9 13:58:30 -??P9 13:58:31 +??P9 13:58:36 zakim, this is rdfcore 13:58:37 this was already SW_RDFCore()10:00AM 13:58:37 ok, em 13:58:46 zakim, who is on the phone? 13:58:47 On the phone I see FrankM, ??P9 13:58:51 anyone know who ??P9 is? 13:58:53 gk has joined #rdfcore 13:58:54 Zakim, ??P9 is ILRT 13:58:55 +ILRT; got it 13:59:05 Zakim, ILRT has DaveB, jjcscribe 13:59:06 +DaveB, Jjcscribe; got it 13:59:32 +??P10 13:59:42 zakim, ??p10 is GK 13:59:43 +GK; got it 13:59:53 +??P11 14:00:20 sandro has left #rdfcore 14:00:48 Zakim, ILRT has DaveB, jjcscribe, jang 14:00:49 DaveB was already listed in ILRT, DaveB 14:00:49 Jjcscribe was already listed in ILRT, DaveB 14:00:50 +Jang; got it 14:01:26 -??P11 14:01:31 * em tries dialing again 14:01:36 +??P12 14:01:46 zakim, p12 is bwm 14:01:47 sorry, bwm, I do not recognize a party named 'p12' 14:01:51 jan_g has joined #rdfcore 14:01:55 zakim, ??p12 is bwm 14:01:56 zakim, ??p12 is bwm 14:01:57 +Bwm; got it 14:01:57 sorry, bwm, I do not recognize a party named '??p12' 14:02:02 +??P13 14:02:03 +??P11 14:02:04 thanks aaron 14:02:31 +??P14 14:02:43 zakim, who is here? 14:02:45 On the phone I see FrankM, ILRT, GK, Bwm, ??P13, ??P11, ??P14 (muted) 14:02:45 ILRT has Jang 14:02:45 zakim, ??p13 is jos 14:02:46 On IRC I see jan_g, gk, RRSAgent, em, DaveB, jjcscribe, bwm, Zakim, AaronSw, logger 14:02:47 +Jos; got it 14:02:55 Zakim, ILRT has DaveB, jjcscribe, jan_g 14:02:56 +DaveB, Jjcscribe, Jan_g; got it 14:02:58 zakim, ??p11 is steveP 14:02:59 +SteveP; got it 14:03:07 JosD has joined #rdfcore 14:03:12 beginning to start up ... 14:03:17 zakim, ??p14 is PatrickS 14:03:18 +PatrickS; got it 14:03:31 +EricM 14:03:39 * em dials manually 14:03:39 zakim, who's on the phone? 14:03:41 On the phone I see FrankM, ILRT, GK, Bwm, Jos, SteveP, PatrickS (muted), EricM 14:03:42 ILRT has DaveB, Jjcscribe, Jan_g 14:04:01 + +1.850.202.aaaa - is perhaps PatH? 14:04:21 agenda? 14:04:22 * Zakim sees nothing on the agenda 14:04:31 zakim, +1.850.202.aaaa is PatH 14:04:32 sorry, em, I do not recognize a party named '+1.850.202.aaaa' 14:04:39 zakim, 1.850.202.aaaa is PatH 14:04:40 sorry, em, I do not recognize a party named '1.850.202.aaaa' 14:04:46 arggg... 14:04:50 danbri has joined #rdfcore 14:04:54 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Oct/0103.html 14:04:57 * danbri along shortly 14:05:25 +Mike_Dean 14:05:49 Item 1: 14:05:51 DanC has joined #rdfcore 14:05:57 Volunteer for next week: JanG 14:05:59 zakim, 1.850 is PatH 14:06:01 sorry, AaronSw, I do not recognize a party named '1.850' 14:06:06 zakim, +1.850 is PatH 14:06:07 sorry, AaronSw, I do not recognize a party named '+1.850' 14:06:10 Volunteer for week after: JosD 14:06:16 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:06:17 On the phone I see FrankM, ILRT, GK, Bwm, Jos, SteveP, PatrickS (muted), EricM, PatH?, Mike_Dean 14:06:18 ILRT has DaveB, Jjcscribe, Jan_g 14:06:20 2: RollCall 14:06:31 zakim, Pat is PatH 14:06:32 sorry, AaronSw, I do not recognize a party named 'Pat' 14:06:46 AaronSw: you not dialling? 14:06:47 mdean has joined #rdfcore 14:06:49 Roll Call complete from zakim 14:06:54 * AaronSw looks for phone number 14:07:07 +DanC 14:07:11 +AaronSw 14:07:11 3: Review Agenda 14:07:21 jjc: it's somewhat dull 14:07:28 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Oct/0103.html 14:07:29 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Oct/0103.html 14:07:52 +DanBri 14:08:01 DanC: does not list all outstanding actions, specifically those on editors to do datatyping stuff. 14:08:07 DanC: please minute this. 14:08:27 5. Minytes 14:08:49 Minutes 2002-10-04 were sparse but are approved. 14:09:00 4Oct minutes http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Oct/0064.html 14:09:00 6. untyped literals 14:09:06 bwm: critical to move forward 14:09:24 6 (review of new info) 14:09:39 jan_g has quit 14:09:47 see links from agenda 14:10:39 DanC: option B gave problems with "10" "010" and cardinality constraints 14:11:03 jan_g has joined #rdfcore 14:11:05 DanC: (about webont) 14:11:05 that's a really bad argument 14:11:13 well, it's coherent. 14:11:23 q+ to say I think there may be a problem with Pat's 14:11:24 PatH: model theory wheeze ... 14:11:24 every app should have to have information about what strings are value equivalent just so a single app doesn't have to have this information? 14:11:24 * Zakim sees Gk on the speaker queue 14:11:52 q+ 14:11:54 * Zakim sees Gk, Jjcscribe on the speaker queue 14:12:18 ack gk 14:12:19 Gk, you wanted to say I think there may be a problem with Pat's 14:12:20 * Zakim sees Jjcscribe on the speaker queue 14:12:25 PatH: it may be a possible way, but don't want to urge it on anyone ... 14:12:33 * DanC q+ to ask whether this "possible untidy route" has the same problem with cardinality constraints 14:12:34 * Zakim sees Jjcscribe, DanC on the speaker queue 14:12:35 -EricM 14:12:48 [[[ 14:12:49 From: pat hayes 14:12:49 To: w3c-rdfcore-wg@w3.org 14:12:49 Subject: possible untidy route 14:12:49 Date: 09 Oct 2002 12:38:21 +0100 14:12:50 ]]] 14:13:16 ack danc 14:13:17 DanC, you wanted to ask whether this "possible untidy route" has the same problem with cardinality constraints 14:13:17 it's a heisenstring 14:13:19 * Zakim sees Jjcscribe on the speaker queue 14:13:39 Zakim, why are you scribing? 14:13:41 I don't understand your question, jjcscribe. 14:13:45 ack jjc 14:13:46 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 14:13:59 jjc notes that b,c,d,f are quite simple - likes this 14:14:12 ... and sees path's suggestion as rather complex to explain 14:14:28 Path: I withdraw my suggestion 14:14:40 q+ to suggest merge of C and F similar to DAML+OIL approach 14:14:41 * Zakim sees Mdean on the speaker queue 14:14:58 PatrickS: speaks about profium implementation 14:15:08 * DanC q+ to say I'm not convinced 14:15:09 * Zakim sees Mdean, DanC on the speaker queue 14:15:27 ack mdean 14:15:28 Mdean, you wanted to suggest merge of C and F similar to DAML+OIL approach 14:15:29 * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue 14:15:51 -PatrickS 14:16:00 q+ 14:16:01 * Zakim sees DanC, JosD on the speaker queue 14:16:08 * DaveB also would also like C+F if poss 14:16:12 q+ 14:16:14 * Zakim sees DanC, JosD, Jjcscribe on the speaker queue 14:16:22 +??P14 14:16:33 zakim, ??p14 is PatrickS 14:16:34 +PatrickS; got it 14:16:53 +EricM 14:17:00 ack DanC 14:17:01 DanC, you wanted to say I'm not convinced 14:17:01 * Zakim sees JosD, Jjcscribe on the speaker queue 14:17:19 DanC: profium did not distinugish B and F 14:18:07 DanC: option C can be used with range constraints but you must still tag the values 14:18:11 ack JosD 14:18:12 * Zakim sees Jjcscribe on the speaker queue 14:18:26 q- 14:18:28 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 14:18:37 em has quit 14:18:43 Jos: C + F are incompatible in that you have to choose on the tidy entailment 14:18:50 do both C and F require my applications to keep all this value-space information (i.e. distinguish between integers, dates and binary digits)? 14:19:21 (I just said that, didn't I?) 14:19:47 * JosD thinks so 14:19:58 Agenda item 7. 14:20:04 Picking the option 14:20:31 bwm: not everyone will be happy ... 14:20:50 bwm: straw poll results have been posted 14:21:03 bwm: let's remove option D 14:21:07 yes, please. 14:21:12 jjc: happy with this 14:21:15 yes do this, move on 14:21:55 bwm: remove option B? B/C pretty even, but webont argument was compelling. 14:22:16 danc: unhappy, but can live with it 14:22:32 bwm: we are down to C and F 14:22:46 bwm: strongest support and least dissent is C 14:23:09 PatS, bwm: changed nokia vote has been taken into account 14:23:43 FrankM: I checked your numbers, the raw data was sligtly different but summary C/F was not impacted 14:24:01 -PatrickS 14:24:18 MikeD: in this situation I would go unacceptable on C 14:24:40 bwm: my proposal is to put the question and ask the working group to support C. 14:25:10 +??P14 14:25:14 bwm: without an agreement we cannot get enough consensus to publish another MT 14:25:18 zakim, ??P14 is PatrickS 14:25:20 +PatrickS; got it 14:26:27 q+ 14:26:28 * Zakim sees Jan on the speaker queue 14:26:29 MikeD: any way to put bopth options in the question 14:27:14 jjc: i want the wg to make a decision 14:27:17 bwm: remind of choices - concur too ? 14:28:01 danc: if too many vote abstain then C will not carry. 14:28:03 sorry, I neglected to mention concur 14:28:43 bwm: I think the right thing to do is to put the question with C 14:29:39 frankm: this may come back if we get lots of neagtive feedback 14:29:49 q+ 14:29:50 * Zakim sees Jan, JosD on the speaker queue 14:29:54 * jan_g is only on the queue to point out that C doesn't preclude the bnode/rdf:value idiom to do long-range typing 14:29:55 bwm: you are right, I hope wg members will not stir up trouble 14:30:08 -PatrickS 14:30:09 ack jan 14:30:10 * Zakim sees JosD on the speaker queue 14:30:12 I agree with Jan's point 14:30:16 ack jos 14:30:18 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 14:30:28 +??P14 14:31:02 [[[ 14:31:03 From: Brian McBride 14:31:03 To: RDF Core 14:31:03 Subject: draft question: option C 14:31:03 Date: 10 Oct 2002 21:50:11 +0100 14:31:04 ]]] 14:31:22 -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Oct/0098.html 14:31:34 -??P14 14:31:41 we are takingitem 8 together with item 7 14:31:51 I dissent to the possible additions 14:32:06 q+ I strongly rpefer the additions 14:32:08 * Zakim jjcscribe, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...' 14:32:40 AaronSw, I was a bit asleep w.r.t the 6Sep decision, but I don't think you're giving new info here. 14:32:43 q+ to strongly prefer the additions 14:32:45 * Zakim sees Jjcscribe on the speaker queue 14:32:45 +??P14 14:33:53 Aaron: additional datatype stuff (from the older decision) gives me stuff to implement that I don't want 14:35:12 em has joined #rdfcore 14:35:47 PatrickS: is it a type clash 14:35:56 +Guha 14:36:08 jjc: I like the range constraint and the untyped literal stuff .. 14:36:27 bwm: I believe I have heard that people prefer the additions 14:36:28 +1 to addition (since it reconfirms an existing decision) 14:36:40 +??P3 14:36:46 -??P3 14:36:46 -AaronSw 14:37:12 +AaronSw 14:37:32 9: putting the question 14:37:38 q+ 14:37:39 * Zakim sees Jjcscribe on the speaker queue 14:38:07 ack 14:38:18 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:38:19 On the phone I see FrankM, ILRT, GK, Bwm, Jos, SteveP, EricM, PatH?, Mike_Dean, DanC, DanBri, ??P14, Guha, AaronSw 14:38:20 ILRT has DaveB, Jjcscribe, Jan_g 14:38:25 -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Oct/0098.html 14:38:25 bwm: would anyone object to a formal vote now 14:38:47 optional parts are included in question, there is a typo corrected by graham 14:38:49 0098 as ammended per Graham's fix 14:39:14 otpions are AYE, CONCUR, ABSTAIN, NO 14:39:27 this is per-person or org? 14:39:49 bwm: per-org 14:39:57 "aye" sounds like "I ..." 14:40:11 For W3C, I defer to DanC (or Em) 14:40:48 FWIW I support DanC's 'AYE' 14:41:01 CAAAANANAAAA 14:41:02 poll: C Y Y Y Y N Y N Y Y Y Y 14:41:33 10/2 > 2/3, yes 14:41:38 er... oops... 14:41:49 yes, 10/2 > 2/3, yes 14:41:49 just do it bwm! 14:41:51 We are putting the question ... 14:41:58 please, ask the question 14:42:15 FrankM: concur 14:42:27 ILRT: yes 14:42:37 Graham: yes 14:42:40 Jos: yes 14:42:43 Steve: yes 14:42:45 PatH: yes 14:42:52 MikeD: no 14:42:56 W3C: yes 14:42:59 Nokia: no 14:43:02 Guha: yes 14:43:05 Aaron: yes 14:43:07 HP: yes 14:43:21 * gk DanC, I think you meant 10/(10+2) = 10/12 > 2/3, no? 14:43:25 so RESOLVED, Nokia and Mike Dean dissenting 14:43:29 * jan_g makes tmesis out of "hooray" by putting in a rude word 14:43:30 Decisioon carried 10 to 2 14:43:41 * DanC doesn't feel like cheering when we've got dissent outstanding 14:43:53 wait till we show it to the outside world 14:43:56 -Guha 14:44:51 several existing actions cover this re-decision; esp with rdf:datatype 14:45:26 Sergey: proxy was not counted -vote changed 11 to 2 14:46:21 sergey's proxy in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Sep/0375.html 14:46:36 yes, please, let's have the example from today's question in the RDF Schema spec. 14:47:17 q+ 14:47:18 * Zakim sees Jjcscribe, Em on the speaker queue 14:47:20 PatH - has model theory stuff to do 14:47:21 q+ 14:47:22 * Zakim sees Jjcscribe, Em, DaveB on the speaker queue 14:47:32 Schema some stuff to do 14:47:42 Test Cases they are in the question 14:47:54 q+ 14:47:55 * Zakim sees Jjcscribe, Em, DaveB, JosD on the speaker queue 14:47:57 ack jjcscribe 14:47:58 ACTION: jang - add test cases 14:47:58 Jjcscribe, you wanted to strongly prefer the additions and to 14:47:58 * Zakim sees Em, DaveB, JosD on the speaker queue 14:47:59 * RRSAgent records action 1 14:48:15 q+ 14:48:17 * Zakim sees Em, DaveB, JosD, Jjcscribe on the speaker queue 14:48:21 ack em 14:48:22 * Zakim sees DaveB, JosD, Jjcscribe on the speaker queue 14:48:23 ack em 14:48:24 ack daveb 14:48:24 * Zakim sees DaveB, JosD, Jjcscribe on the speaker queue 14:48:25 * Zakim sees JosD, Jjcscribe on the speaker queue 14:48:27 * DanC hopes to have a fairly complete set of drafts to review within 2 weeks. 14:49:12 * gk I'd hope so too 14:49:52 * DanC q+ to ask about ntriples... 14:49:53 * Zakim sees JosD, Jjcscribe, DanC on the speaker queue 14:50:06 ack danC 14:50:07 DanC, you wanted to ask about ntriples... 14:50:08 * Zakim sees JosD, Jjcscribe on the speaker queue 14:50:19 ack JosD 14:50:20 * Zakim sees Jjcscribe on the speaker queue 14:50:22 ACTION: daveb make changes to ntriple 14:50:22 * RRSAgent records action 2 14:50:25 the ntriples will be "blah" 14:50:35 hmm... 14:50:37 -AaronSw 14:51:01 bwm: in illustrative examples q:name"foO" 14:51:14 ack jjcscribe 14:51:15 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 14:51:46 as I outlined in in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Sep/0198.html - I'm making change 3 only 14:51:58 um, and change 1 14:52:22 danc: concepts seems critical path 14:52:27 * JosD thinks that works i.e. "abc" and eg:dt"abc" 14:52:56 * JosD ... at least in our running code 14:53:00 * DanC noodles on a process idea... any WG decision that isn't published in a WD within, say, 2 months, is vacated. 14:53:48 jjc: webont guide would benefit from new RDF Xyntax WD 14:54:16 ... that shows parseType="Collection" details. 14:54:56 ACTION: jjc circulate new version of concepts doc 14:54:57 * RRSAgent records action 3 14:55:25 * DanC awaits action on syntax spec... 14:55:28 ACTION: daveb circulate new version of syntax doc, with a view to publication 14:55:30 * RRSAgent records action 4 14:55:49 gk: i think agenda item 12 should be deleted from next agedna 14:56:01 gk: it is passed its sell by date 14:56:09 close early 14:56:10 -SteveP 14:56:11 -Jos 14:56:13 -ILRT 14:56:14 -??P14 14:56:16 -Bwm 14:56:20 -DanC 14:56:28 -FrankM 14:56:28 -DanBri 14:57:24 DaveB has quit 14:57:31 JosD has quit 14:57:33 zakim, please disconnect me 14:57:34 sorry, em, I do not see a party named 'em' 14:57:40 zakim, please disconnect EricM 14:57:41 EricM is being disconnected 14:57:42 -EricM 14:58:55 jan_g has quit 15:02:09 jjcscribe has quit 15:02:21 -PatH? 15:02:56 danbri has left #rdfcore 15:03:10 bwm has quit 15:04:38 -Mike_Dean 15:04:46 -GK 15:04:47 SW_RDFCore()10:00AM has ended 15:15:08 gk has quit 16:33:45 mdean has quit