W3C RDF Core Working Group IRC Chat Logs for 2003-10-03

13:01:02 Users on #rdfcore: @logger

13:57:29 <ericm> ericm has changed the topic to: rdfcore oct 3 teleconference - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003Oct/0036.html

13:57:37 * RRSAgent is logging

13:59:23 <ericm> zakim, this will be RDF

13:59:23 <Zakim> ok, ericm; I see SW_RDFCore()10:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute

14:00:33 <Zakim> SW_RDFCore()10:00AM has now started

14:00:35 <Zakim> +EMiller

14:00:42 <Zakim> +FrankM

14:01:05 <ericm> zakim, who is here?

14:01:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see EMiller, FrankM

14:01:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see gk, Zakim, RRSAgent, ericm, bwm, dajobe-lap, logger

14:01:36 <Zakim> +GrahamKlyne

14:01:49 <Zakim> +??P19

14:01:55 <dajobe-lap> dajobe-lap is now known as DaveB

14:02:03 <ericm> zakim, ??P19 is hp

14:02:03 <Zakim> +hp; got it

14:02:20 <ericm> zakim, hp includes bwm, jjc, daveb

14:02:20 <Zakim> I don't understand 'hp includes bwm, jjc, daveb', ericm

14:02:28 <ericm> zakim, hp contains bwm, jjc, daveb

14:02:28 <Zakim> +bwm, jjc, daveb; got it

14:03:07 * gk notes the apparent problem with psudo-natural-labguage interfaces... ;-)

14:04:10 <ericm> :)

14:04:23 <bwm> zakim, who is on the phone?

14:04:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see EMiller, FrankM, GrahamKlyne, hp

14:04:24 <Zakim> hp has bwm, jjc, daveb

14:05:37 <ericm> zakim, pick a victim

14:05:37 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose FrankM

14:06:02 <DaveB> DaveB is now known as daveb-sc

14:06:08 <Zakim> +Patrick

14:06:26 <daveb-sc> roll call

14:06:29 <daveb-sc> as above

14:06:33 <daveb-sc> 3 thanks

14:06:43 <daveb-sc> bwm notes there's lots of work going on

14:06:48 * DanC running late, reviewing agenda

14:06:59 <daveb-sc> wanted to recognise people helping move to LC2

14:07:01 <daveb-sc> 4 review agenda

14:07:33 <daveb-sc> xml validation of rdf/xml

14:07:50 <Zakim> +PatH

14:08:20 <daveb-sc> ericm: aob xml schema review

14:08:33 * DanC Zakim, call DanC-BOS

14:08:34 * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made

14:08:35 <Zakim> +DanC

14:08:38 <daveb-sc> msg http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003Oct/0060.html

14:08:46 <daveb-sc> ^- informal indication of comments from xmls

14:09:39 <daveb-sc> 5 next telcon

14:09:42 * DanC Zakim, pick a victim

14:09:42 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose jjc

14:09:44 <daveb-sc> next week same time

14:09:46 * DanC Zakim, pick a victim

14:09:46 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose daveb

14:09:52 <daveb-sc> chair next week bwm

14:09:55 <daveb-sc> 6 minutes

14:10:10 <daveb-sc> minutes of 26 sep approved as revised

14:10:17 <daveb-sc> 7 completed items

14:10:20 * DanC q+ to ask about webont test action

14:10:20 * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue

14:10:22 <daveb-sc> all done

14:10:37 <daveb-sc> 8 withdrawn items

14:10:43 <daveb-sc> noted, no action ened

14:10:57 <daveb-sc> 9 status misc actions

14:11:34 <daveb-sc> 10 update on LC1 comments

14:12:28 <daveb-sc> merging pfps-04 &05 into one objection from PFPS with his agreement

14:13:37 <daveb-sc> note that an objection deep down in informative part of semantics will need to be explained

14:13:52 <daveb-sc> 11 literals must be in NFC

14:14:14 * DanC is totally not up to speed on this one; would love to see a test case

14:14:36 <daveb-sc> everyone seems happy with MUST to SHOULD, not clear agreement on what happens when not NFC

14:14:43 * DanC wonders if ericm is prepared to give the team's position on this; I'm OK to abstain, I guess

14:14:51 <daveb-sc> ^jjc - so we remain silent on this part

14:15:20 <daveb-sc> jjc - there is a test case for MUST under charmod-literal

14:15:30 <daveb-sc> .. with a SHOULD language, it would probably be better to withdraw it

14:15:48 * ericm is not prepared to offer a team position on this issue

14:15:50 <daveb-sc> ... since impls can do other things than just reject it

14:16:26 <daveb-sc> bwm triple (s, p, "u<umlaut combining char")

14:16:31 <daveb-sc> is that a legal triple?

14:16:39 <daveb-sc> we presently say no

14:16:59 <daveb-sc> proposal is to say you shouldn't, but it is not illegal

14:17:06 <daveb-sc> (jjc current test is on e acute)

14:17:17 <daveb-sc> jjc - and we'd withdraw that test, be silent

14:17:37 <daveb-sc> bwm current indication from i18n & pfps is that they're happy with that

14:17:52 <ericm> q+

14:17:52 <ericm> +q

14:17:52 * Zakim sees DanC, ericm on the speaker queue

14:17:53 * Zakim wonders where q is

14:18:03 <ericm> never mind zakim, i'm asleep

14:18:20 <daveb-sc> scribe note: regrets from MikeD, JosDe roo seen on email

14:20:17 <ericm> ack danc

14:20:17 <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to ask about webont test action

14:20:18 * Zakim sees ericm on the speaker queue

14:21:30 <ericm> ack ericm

14:21:30 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue

14:21:55 <ericm> .me notes between Danc's question and jjc's update from I18N, these answers my questions

14:23:38 <bwm> q?

14:23:38 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue

14:25:24 <DanC> PROPOSED: to change NFC SHOULD to MUST, contingent on confirmation from I18N WG and with some editorial discretion for the editors to take advice from peers

14:25:48 <DanC> PROPOSED: to change NFC MUST to SHOULD, contingent on confirmation from I18N WG and with some editorial discretion for the editors to take advice from peers

14:26:10 <gk> SECONDED

14:26:15 <daveb-sc> against: none

14:26:35 <daveb-sc> abstains: none

14:26:38 <daveb-sc> decided

14:26:59 <daveb-sc> actions jjc: continue NFC dicussion with I18N

14:27:10 <ericm>http://www.w3.org/XML/Group/2003/10/xmlschema.rdf.comments.responses.html#id2612457

14:27:13 <daveb-sc> action jjc: change concepts NFC MUST to SHOULD

14:27:13 * RRSAgent records action 1

14:27:23 <daveb-sc> action daveb: change syntax NFC MUST to SHOULD

14:27:23 * RRSAgent records action 2

14:28:24 <daveb-sc> item 12

14:29:39 <daveb-sc> some of us look at the (member only) url above and xml schema wg response

14:29:53 <daveb-sc> q+ jjc

14:29:53 * Zakim sees jjc on the speaker queue

14:30:00 <daveb-sc> ack jjc

14:30:00 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue

14:30:27 <daveb-sc> jjc: our response could be in the draft I sketched

14:30:36 <gk> q+ to ask about Patricks final comfort level with Jememy's latest proposal

14:30:37 * Zakim sees gk on the speaker queue

14:31:00 <bwm> zakim, who is on the phone?

14:31:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see EMiller, FrankM, GrahamKlyne, hp, Patrick, PatH, DanC

14:31:02 <Zakim> hp has bwm, jjc, daveb

14:31:55 <daveb-sc> straw poll on whitespace in xsd

14:32:28 <daveb-sc> bwm: the literal has " 3 " type xsd:decimal; does it map to decimal value 3?

14:32:41 <daveb-sc> bwm: do allow/support whitespace processing, or do we not?

14:32:48 <daveb-sc> straw poll

14:32:57 <daveb-sc> frank: sbtain

14:33:58 <daveb-sc> nearby jjc's proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003Oct/0003.html

14:35:37 <bwm> does _:a <eg:prop> " 3 "^^xsd:decimal xsd entail <eg:prop> "3"^^xsd:decimal

14:36:20 <DanC> poll: A Y Y C N N N Y

14:38:18 <gk> (I would happily switch my Y to C -- I don't feel strongly)

14:38:53 <daveb-sc> bwm: suggests we won't pass for a change, and move on

14:39:20 <daveb-sc> re-phraseing, we won't get enough support for a change, so default to no change.

14:40:59 <DanC> path's comment is consistent with my intuitions, but seems difficult to accomplish.

14:41:15 <daveb-sc> item 12 reuqirements ofr last call

14:41:21 <daveb-sc> xmlsch-02 just dealt with

14:41:36 <daveb-sc> action bwm: ensure last call comment disposition is up to date

14:41:36 * RRSAgent records action 3

14:41:59 <daveb-sc> rdf:RDF http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-comments/2003JulSep/0358.html

14:42:00 * DanC wonders if ericm is confident that all the comments have been dealt with

14:42:01 <ericm> q+ to provide feedback on last-call review period from xml-cg and ws-cg

14:42:01 * Zakim sees gk, ericm on the speaker queue

14:42:07 <gk> (Re. Pat's comment, maybe an RDF Parser MAY perform XSD whitespace processing? Not suggesting any change now)

14:42:09 <gk> q-

14:42:09 * Zakim sees ericm on the speaker queue

14:42:56 * ericm has confidence in Brian for answering if all the comments have been dealt with

14:45:10 <daveb-sc> interop with xslt and best practice with xml community

14:45:38 <daveb-sc> daveb-sc: notes it will mean impl change, but not a large on

14:45:40 <daveb-sc> one

14:46:20 <daveb-sc> jjc: when we have rdf/xml, we already know it's rdf, so rdf:RDF is really not necessary

14:46:42 <daveb-sc> not strong feeling from jjc

14:46:52 <daveb-sc> frank: would like to change this

14:47:07 <daveb-sc> ericm: lot easier for users

14:47:09 <gk> I can imagine situations in RDF/XML processing in which one wants to replace a single element (e.g. rdf:Description) with many -- rdf:RDF eases such changes, I think. This kind-of supports DanC's intuitions.

14:47:47 <daveb-sc> proposal to allow rdf/xmld ocuments to start with a nodeElement production in addition to rdf:RDF

14:49:12 <daveb-sc> jjc: should be ok, ned to check the validator

14:49:24 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean

14:49:38 <daveb-sc> seconded jjc

14:49:41 <daveb-sc> against none

14:49:52 <daveb-sc> abstain: path, miked

14:50:02 <daveb-sc> approved

14:50:08 <daveb-sc> action jjc: check the w3c rdf validator handles this

14:50:08 * RRSAgent records action 4

14:50:13 * DanC q+

14:50:13 * Zakim sees ericm, DanC on the speaker queue

14:50:26 <daveb-sc> action daveb: change rdf/xml syntax to allow nodeELement as root

14:50:26 * RRSAgent records action 5

14:50:35 * DanC q-

14:50:36 * Zakim sees ericm on the speaker queue

14:50:44 <daveb-sc> action daveb: add test case to test allowing omitted rdf:RDF

14:50:44 * RRSAgent records action 6

14:50:55 <daveb-sc> ^- out element of book might be nice

14:51:05 <daveb-sc> action frankm: change primer to show documetn with omitted rdf:RDF example

14:51:05 * RRSAgent records action 7

14:51:16 <daveb-sc> bwm: bahck to xml schema comments

14:51:27 <daveb-sc> they intend to formally object that we have not defined a new syntax

14:52:20 <daveb-sc> next comment dtd examples invaldate rdf/xml http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-comments/2003OctDec/0005.html

14:52:43 <DanC> we do have a postponed issue (or issues) around new syntax, I'm pretty sure.

14:52:53 <daveb-sc> frankm: an example using a subset to define entities

14:53:22 <daveb-sc> ... it not's clear that only (?) non-validating parsers should be used with rdf & owl

14:54:43 <daveb-sc> frankm: could you add something to syntax

14:54:53 <daveb-sc> daveb-sc: "a validating xml parser is not required"

14:55:43 <gk> Dave, is your DTD published anywhere?

14:55:44 <daveb-sc> frankm repons

14:55:53 <daveb-sc> gk: it's the dublin core XML rdf simple doc

14:56:16 <daveb-sc> path: we have addressed all comments on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-comments/2003JulSep/0363.html

14:56:44 <daveb-sc> path re http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-comments/2003JulSep/0373.html from herman

14:56:50 <daveb-sc> ... adopted some wording changes to clear up things

14:57:10 <daveb-sc> jjc: there might be some more comments isnce this is a prtial review from herman

14:57:30 <gk> (Dave, got it thanks: http://dublincore.org/documents/2002/07/31/dcmes-xml/dcmes-xml-dtd.dtd)

14:59:37 <daveb-sc> ericm: negotiating time for reviews

14:59:55 * DanC q+ to propose extending the meeting as long as it takes to get the last call decision made

14:59:55 * Zakim sees ericm, DanC on the speaker queue

15:00:01 <daveb-sc> web services - interested, nobody signed up

15:00:23 <daveb-sc> xml core - met and agreed to provide responses

15:00:30 <daveb-sc> xml schema - on agenda in WG meeting today, expect to say yes

15:00:35 <daveb-sc> (xml core want 4 weeks)

15:01:10 <daveb-sc> bwm - htmlwg expect to review, no comments on timescale

15:01:22 <daveb-sc> meeting extended 15 mins

15:04:31 <daveb-sc> action ericm: chase other groups on the 'heads up list' re reviews for RDF LC2 WDs

15:04:31 * RRSAgent records action 8

15:04:53 * DanC notes that planning a 3 week last call had the relevant effect, which was to allow us to actually do it in 4 weeks ;-)

15:05:17 <daveb-sc> documents

15:05:34 <daveb-sc> jjc: missing SOTD, script for links not ready

15:06:03 <daveb-sc> frankm: change to primer re rdf:RDF not ready (decision from today) & clarification about usning non-validation parsers. Ready Monday 6th

15:06:12 <daveb-sc> path: tiny edit to semantics to get NFC right

15:06:22 <daveb-sc> bwm: schedule by next Wed ok?

15:07:30 <daveb-sc> bwm suggests to make links to point to shadow TR space now

15:07:34 <gk> DanBri talks about script for documents: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003Oct/0049.html

15:07:41 <daveb-sc> and the script runs it will do the url rewriting

15:08:23 <gk> Suggests links set to .../incoming/...:

15:08:24 <gk> [[

15:08:24 <gk> Basic outline: we put docs into

15:08:25 <gk> RDFCore/TR/incoming/rdf-schema/ (or whatever, eg. .../rdf-mt/), and

15:08:25 <gk> whenever we have a dated document we point to sibling docs in this

15:08:25 <gk> space, eg. in RDFS when I link to Primer I'll use uris like

15:08:26 <gk> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/TR/incoming/rdf-primer/

15:08:28 <gk> ]]

15:08:56 <bwm>http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/TR/WD-rdf-schema-20030117/

15:09:11 <daveb-sc> ^- appropriate link to schema doc

15:09:37 <daveb-sc> will get automatically updated by 'the script' - bwm

15:13:18 <daveb-sc> action ericm: produce boiler place for SOTD template; earlier and editors will add doc-specific bits

15:13:18 * RRSAgent records action 9

15:13:35 <daveb-sc> action daveb: write script for fidxing up intenral references

15:13:35 * RRSAgent records action 10

15:13:49 <daveb-sc> publication date will be 10th October, previously discussed

15:13:56 <daveb-sc> ericm: right date, get by 8th

15:14:16 <daveb-sc> put them in the doc, and use in references

15:14:24 <daveb-sc> bwm: changelogs must be uptodate, get them done if not

15:14:40 <daveb-sc> PatH: how detailed?

15:14:52 <daveb-sc> DanC: an item for anhything viisible from a test

15:15:09 <daveb-sc> bwm: it would be good to do diffs (htm), will look at offline

15:15:32 <daveb-sc> Path: Propose we move all 6 docs to LC2

15:15:34 <daveb-sc> against: none

15:15:36 <daveb-sc> abstain: none

15:15:41 <daveb-sc> decision: RDF docs move to LC2

15:15:54 <daveb-sc> seconded: jjc

15:16:25 <daveb-sc> DanC: who's in the critical path

15:16:50 <daveb-sc> frankm: want to see change made to RDF:RDF in syntax

15:16:57 <daveb-sc> ... by daveb-sc

15:17:14 <daveb-sc> jjc: waiting for some i18n feedback (martin duerst, potentially there)

15:17:40 <gk> Jeremy, if you get delayed beyond your availability cutoff, can you be prepared to hand over final details to me?

15:17:45 <daveb-sc> syntax: no

15:17:54 <daveb-sc> schema - bwm: we believe it is ready

15:18:37 <daveb-sc> nobody present beleives there are bytes needed changed

15:19:04 <daveb-sc> semantics - done, path happy to get eyeballs

15:19:57 <daveb-sc> jjc suggests telling reviewers looking at previous WDs to stop, thank them and note new LC2 WD out soon

15:20:36 * gk my phone battery's getting low

15:21:00 <daveb-sc> test cases - wording about negative entailment

15:21:38 <daveb-sc> action daveb: either work with jang to change negative entailment test wording, or do it myself, monday 6th oct

15:21:38 * RRSAgent records action 11

15:22:26 <daveb-sc> ericm: 6 docs & new lbase, very small changes

15:22:36 <daveb-sc> DanC: great if it goes, not critical

15:23:02 <daveb-sc> meeting closed

15:23:09 <Zakim> -PatH

15:23:11 <Zakim> -DanC

15:23:13 <Zakim> -Patrick

15:23:16 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean

15:23:17 <Zakim> -hp

15:23:24 <ericm> zakim, who is here?

15:23:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see EMiller, FrankM, GrahamKlyne

15:23:25 <Zakim> On IRC I see DanC, gk, Zakim, RRSAgent, ericm, bwm, daveb-sc, logger

15:23:27 <Zakim> -GrahamKlyne

15:23:32 <ericm> zakim, who is here?

15:23:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see EMiller, FrankM

15:23:33 <Zakim> On IRC I see DanC, gk, Zakim, RRSAgent, ericm, bwm, daveb-sc, logger

15:29:03 <Zakim> -EMiller

15:29:04 <Zakim> -FrankM

15:29:05 <Zakim> SW_RDFCore()10:00AM has ended