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02:06:41 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Good morning, all.  The news is up on http://openprojects.net/ with lots of other information about the project.  Please take a look.  Highlights:  Admin activity, shiny new Gelhausen record, still about $1,000 away from starting the non-profit registration status.  Have a great Friday!
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10:38:06 <pohl.openprojects.net> topic is: Semantic Web chat (logged: http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/)
10:38:06 <pohl.openprojects.net> Users on #rdfig: logger baud_vaio @dajobe urgen bwm edd jonas @AaronSw DanC dc_rdfig em bijan danbri kenm chihchun__ baud Nabil 
10:38:06 <ChanServ> Links and more info at: http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/
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10:43:55 <dajobe> my RDF web crawler (web pages=>RDF files that is) just finished getting 300K webpages.  Now to create the indexes, should take a day or so
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11:44:11 <jonb> * jonb got his coffee, notes that the only logs so far today are irc server traffic
11:44:43 <dajobe> yes, but I kicked logger - it had lost UTC 05:00-10:30
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14:00:38 <DanC> hmm... i wonder if logger can do his grep thing via http. ideally, the page pointed to from the /topic would have a "search logs: ____ today/all"
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14:06:48 <jhendler> http://www.nature.com/nature/debates/e-access/index.html
14:06:48 <dc_rdfig> A: http://www.nature.com/nature/debates/e-access/index.html from jhendler
14:07:07 <jhendler> A:This web debate on future e-access to the primary literature carries two new
14:07:08 <dc_rdfig> commented item A
14:07:08 <jhendler>  contributions. In the first,"Scientific publishing on the 'semantic web,'" Tim
14:07:08 <jhendler>  Berners-Lee, director of the World Wide Web Consortium, and James
14:07:08 <jhendler>  Hendler, responsible for research on agent-based computing at the US
14:07:08 <jhendler>  Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, argue that the current debate
14:07:08 <jhendler>  over web publishing of scientific research is but the beginning of a more
14:07:10 <jhendler>  profound change in the way scientific knowledge is produced and shared. The
14:07:12 <jhendler>  web that we know now, argue Berners-Lee and Hendler, is far short of
14:07:14 <jhendler>  reaching its full potential, because it amounts largely to a repository where
14:07:16 <jhendler>  humans simply search and retrieve information. Their vision of a semantic
14:07:18 <jhendler>  web is one where new technologies will allow computers to also understand
14:07:20 <jhendler> A: and communicate with each other, opening up a host of new opportunities.
14:07:20 <dc_rdfig> commented item A
14:07:40 <jhendler> A: Sem Web article in Nature - online now, print next week
14:07:40 <dc_rdfig> commented item A
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14:50:13 <Nabil> what a computer can say to another one in a really productive manner ?
14:53:29 <Nabil> how much memory you have, what packages are installed on you ?
14:53:46 <Nabil> you should upgrade your self old system ??
14:54:24 <Nabil> machine A: you should upgrade your self old system B ??
14:55:18 <Nabil> machine B: i know someone (a machine) which has bug fixes for you
14:55:43 <Nabil> machine A:
14:57:51 <Nabil> has anyone interesting talk subjects between two machines ?
15:00:13 <jhendler> sure - I'd love my machine to check with yours, in the context of this chat, to make sure you're really who you claim you are. and not someone using the "nabil" name to spoof me into thinking you're someone worth communicating with.
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15:15:06 <sagan.openprojects.net> Users on #rdfig: logger_1 dajobe gerald bwm urgen jhendler Nabil DanC jang e ArtB jonb logger dc_rdfig em bijan danbri kenm chihchun__ baud 
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15:16:05 <herbert.openprojects.net> topic is: Semantic Web chat (logged: http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/)
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15:19:33 <jonb> jhendler: nice article in nature
15:19:45 <dajobe> dajobe has changed the topic to: RDF and Semantic Web chat (http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/ home: http://www.w3.org/RDF/Interest/ )
15:20:01 <jonb> this is precisely my interest in rdf for medical/healthcare applications
15:20:30 <jonb> (note that pubmed is already online and in XML format)
15:22:45 <Nabil> jhendler : good start, who i am doesn't care, we already have problems in real live with stolen credit cards and we don't know how to deal with it.
15:23:26 <Nabil> authentication people are tryning to enforce authentication "semantics" as much as they can :)
15:23:37 <jang> eh? off-topic, but dealing with stolen credit cards is pretty simple
15:24:12 <Nabil> no, not off-topic : writing a proof that you're you is a problem
15:24:44 <jang> look up "identity-based authentication"
15:25:15 <Nabil> okay ...
15:26:25 <Nabil> what i was tryning to say is that we spent 50 years to get to the consensus that 2 machines talking together should do it at a global scale using ascii/unicode and markup
15:27:25 <jang> heh heh ... it didn't take that long
15:27:26 <jang> maybe 10 years
15:27:36 <Nabil> then, with this we built some specif semantics, documents(HTML), vector graphics (SVG), multimedia (SMIL), etc
15:27:41 <jang> prior to that, we'd all come to realise that ASN.1 was the way to talk.
15:27:42 <Nabil> on top of that 
15:27:54 <Nabil> yep agreed
15:28:06 <jang> or a protocol which you make uypas you go along
15:28:34 <Nabil> but yes this is my old computer opened to a global scale
15:29:00 <Nabil> this steps were necessary : understood
15:30:16 <Nabil> when a human wants to communicate to another human efficiently ... he uses now XHTML 
15:30:34 <Nabil> ... at a global scale
15:32:31 <Nabil> My question is what is the most global/usefull/simplest vocabulary to put on a machine
15:43:20 <Nabil> hey gerald
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15:50:15 <kenm> jonb: did that last email make sense?  I know Eric vdV was getting his best results with Schematron, but eventually faced the "don't have a schema for parts of this" issue anyway.
15:51:24 <e> e is now known as edd
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16:39:59 <timbl> http://www.nature.com/nature/debates/e-access/Articles/bernerslee.htm nature article with Jim Hendler on Semantic Web
16:39:59 <dc_rdfig> B: http://www.nature.com/nature/debates/e-access/Articles/bernerslee.htm from timbl
16:42:06 <DanC> B:|nature article with Jim Hendler on Semantic Web
16:42:07 <dc_rdfig> titled item B
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17:02:56 <jonb> kenm: i don't have an answer for 'don't have a schema for parts of this'
17:03:34 <jonb> just that if one does have schemata then one can schema validate
17:06:37 <jonb> regarding semantic web and scientific publishing - this is an area of extraordinary potential
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17:09:02 <jonb> linking of RDF metadata describing someones medical information with journal articles describing treatments and outcome probabilities
17:09:52 <jonb> the UMLS semantic network system is ripe for webification
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17:26:40 <kenm> jonb: thx.  just to be clear, it was 1) the "don't worry about the bits we don't have schemas for", and 2) no structure-interaction between modular schemas, that we ran into problems with all the schema languages.
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18:01:25 <jonb> i'm not sure how useful it is to xml schema validate an rdf application like RSS, the discussion is perhaps more useful in the context of XHTML + RDF where editors etc. might have a good reason to xml schema/DTD validate the document
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18:06:58 <timbl> http://www.lfcs.informatics.ed.ac.uk/reports/91/ECS-LFCS-91-180/
18:06:58 <dc_rdfig> C: http://www.lfcs.informatics.ed.ac.uk/reports/91/ECS-LFCS-91-180/ from timbl
18:08:27 <timbl> C|The Polyadic pi-Calculus: A Tutorial
18:08:51 <timbl> :C dc:creator [ foaf:name "Robin Milner] .
18:09:13 <timbl> :C dc:title "The Polyadic pi-Calculus: A Tutorial"
18:09:42 <timbl> .
18:12:22 <edd> C:|The Polyadic pi-Calculus: A Tutorial
18:12:22 <dc_rdfig> titled item C
18:12:38 <edd> C:By Robin Milner
18:12:38 <dc_rdfig> commented item C
18:14:00 <jonb> sem chump working yet?
18:14:51 <edd> clearly only with this edd-filter
18:17:11 <DanC> btw, tim, the dublin core folk have created a dca:agentName property
18:17:16 <DanC> analagous to foaf:name
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18:27:55 <GabeW> * GabeW gave dajobe a tiny patch to irclogs.xsl and now each irc line is directly referenceable via a URL (with #)
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18:39:40 <bwm> * bwm waves at danja
18:44:43 <danja> hi bwm - I was miles away...
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18:56:05 <jonb> * jonb wonders if the edd-chump works for all foaf:nick's
18:57:10 <jonb> if so, it will be useful to xlate sethr's sem english into something we can all understand :-)
18:58:16 <SethR> huh?
18:59:17 <SethR> i mean if humans can't understand it as it plays .. then it is already a miserable failure :(
18:59:37 <DanC> trying to put away some windows on my desktop so I can reboot... I've got a PDF viewer showing a document that I got from the web, but I can't tell WHERE!
18:59:39 <DanC> It's by...
19:01:38 <SethR> jonb: but i guess you meant translate it into XHTML ?
19:01:53 <jonb> right
19:02:34 <jonb> http://www.wirednews.com/news/business/0,1367,43061,00.html
19:02:34 <dc_rdfig> D: http://www.wirednews.com/news/business/0,1367,43061,00.html from jonb
19:02:34 <SethR> im working on translating it into pentuples ... generating xhtml from that is very easy ... what did you have in mind?
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19:03:19 <jonb> D:| Liking Records Raises Risks
19:03:20 <dc_rdfig> titled item D
19:03:43 <jonb> D: relevent regarding 'anonymous' nodes
19:03:44 <dc_rdfig> commented item D
19:03:51 <sbp> D:
19:03:51 <dc_rdfig> http://www.wirednews.com/news/business/0,1367,43061,00.html
19:03:52 <dc_rdfig> Liking Records Raises Risks
19:03:53 <dc_rdfig> (jonb) relevent regarding 'anonymous' nodes
19:05:09 <sbp> D:|Linking Records Raises Risks
19:05:09 <dc_rdfig> titled item D
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19:07:57 <SethR> D: Yep, if you want to remain anonymous, you'd better not identify yourself
19:07:57 <dc_rdfig> commented item D
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19:36:02 <bear.openprojects.net> topic is: RDF and Semantic Web chat (http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/ home: http://www.w3.org/RDF/Interest/ )
19:36:02 <bear.openprojects.net> Users on #rdfig: logger @dajobe sbp SethR timbl GabeW em gerald urgen Nabil DanC jang edd jonb dc_rdfig chihchun__ bijan danbri kenm 
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20:50:26 <danbri> * danbri catches up, wonders about all the [off]s
20:51:19 <sbp> just ignore them
20:52:36 <danbri> do you reckon it'd be useful to fork off an unlogged #rdfig-chat for unconstrained chatter? save on the [off] or navelgazing about whether something was on-topic?
20:53:23 <dajobe> It doesn't seem to be a big problem for most people
20:53:25 <sbp> doubt it. People just use [off] fopr idle comments usually, rather than big chats
20:53:30 <danbri> N3 - sorry, i'm not an N3 reader. When it's proclaimed stable and documented I'll certainly invest the time in learning it, looks like a cool hack. But right now I don't know it.
20:53:47 <danbri> 'k. 
20:54:16 <sbp> Erm... I could convert it into XML RDF for you?
20:57:05 <danbri> don't take the time right now; i have to rush off shortly. I'm interested in the EARL work though. Make a prototype what seems like years ago w/ Chaaals... (using JanG's stuff)
20:57:10 <danbri> oh, ok then!
20:57:14 <sbp> :-)
20:57:59 <sbp> yeah, I saw the Chaals/DanBri prototype
20:58:23 <sbp> IT was a fundamental dfactor in getting peiole to use RDF for ADL I reckon
20:58:38 <sbp> ADL was an early version of EDL, which was later renamed EARL
20:59:27 <danbri> what is rdf:is ? did timbl add this to the rdf namespace without telling us?
20:59:48 <dajobe> that was an Aaron suggestion on the rdf issues list
20:59:56 <danbri> fundamental factor: cool! we lashed it up at the back of some w3c ac meeting
21:00:45 <danbri> parsetype = quote. I don't know that either. timbl's way of representing contexts in naive rdf?
21:01:02 <dajobe> yes, might be daml invented 
21:01:24 <danbri> i thought they stuck to goofing around with better list syntaxes.
21:01:38 <danbri> btw best post the url we're discussing into the channel, or people will wonder...
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21:01:41 <dajobe> nope, parsetype daml:collection I think.
21:01:56 <danbri> collection - yep - quote's not a daml thing.
21:02:44 <danbri> er, syntax in sbp's file seems goofy. rdf:Description contains and rdf:description element (ie. no property striping...)
21:03:11 <dajobe> I assume he used cwm.py to do converting
21:03:26 <danbri> hmm, i have to admit to finding it a bit cryptic. Maybe a nice svg diagram would make it easier....
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21:08:35 <dajobe> Aside: got a working RSS 1.0 feed in Norweigan (spelling!) - works fine i18n-wise but I can't worrk out what it is about
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21:10:32 <ChanServ> Links and more info at: http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/
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21:30:43 <sbp> * sbp goes through some of DanBri's log comments
21:31:44 <sbp> Yep, I used CWM to convert it over (cwm.py,v 1.32 2001/04/05 21:33:55 timbl Exp), it's a lot quicker than doing it by hand
21:31:52 <sbp> but it does give a very kooky output often
21:32:48 <sbp> rdf:parseType="Quote" does look like a method for representing contexts... I'm not sure where it came from
21:33:06 <sbp> Anyway, the RDF output given by CWM doesn't matter too much here: and RDF model is an RDF model
21:33:27 <sbp> I might map it out in SVG as suggested... I just got a neat little SVG drawing progrma, and I've been wanting to try it out
21:39:47 <DanC> * DanC wonders if aaron is around...
21:40:40 <DanC> I updated the list of URI schemes again; more emphasis on the schemes themselves, and less on the references. http://www.w3.org/Addressing/schemes 1.83 2001/04/20 21:38:10
21:43:24 <dajobe> * dajobe adds another 7 RSS 1.0 feeds to his viewer
21:45:56 <sbp> * sbp takes a look at the URI schemes list
21:47:40 <sbp> ah, interesting way to generate the reference titles...
21:49:03 <sbp> and nice to see that the URI schemes are arranged alphabetically now
21:52:51 <sbp> DanC, are you there? Is Notation3 stable enough to be used in specifications? I mean, really? What advantages over XRDF at this stage?
21:53:52 <sbp> Currently, some people seem to be put off by Notation3 because it's not a recommendation. With EARL we have a choice of N3/XRDF... and I'm not sure which way to develop. IF CWM could do N3 <=> XRDF perfectly...
21:54:16 <DanC> "stable enough" is in the eye of the beholder. It's stable enough for stuff I'm working on.
21:54:27 <sbp> Is it stable enough for global implementation?
21:54:44 <DanC> I dunno what "global implementation" is.
21:55:12 <sbp> If people use it in their little evaluation programs, it's not going to be superceeded the next day by something else, is it?
21:55:30 <DanC> not superceded: no guarantees whatsoever.
21:55:44 <sbp> Bah, we'll probably have to use XML RDF then.
21:56:08 <DanC> RDF/n3 is not on the W3C Recommendation track; if you want to use it in WAI REC-track stuff, you'll have to copy the RDF/n3 spec into your spec.
21:56:18 <DanC> or not...
21:56:35 <sbp> Well, EARL isn't going to be a REC either, at least it doesn't look so at this stage
21:56:38 <DanC> i.e. the cc/pp spec has an informal notation in its diagrams. You could just use RDF/n3 without saying you're using n3.
21:56:43 <sbp> but it will have multiple implementations
21:56:55 <DanC> certainly RDF/n3 should be considered just short-hand for RDF/xml.
21:56:59 <DanC> * DanC gotta go...
21:57:01 <DanC> * DanC is away: family stuff
21:57:03 <sbp> O.K.
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22:57:25 <AaronSw> <danbri> what is rdf:is ? did timbl add this to the rdf namespace without telling us?
22:57:32 <AaronSw> <danbri> what is rdf:is ? did timbl add this to the rdf namespace without telling us?
22:57:41 <AaronSw> <dajobe> that was an Aaron suggestion on the rdf issues list
22:57:47 <AaronSw> * AaronSw wonders where rdf:is was spotted
22:58:23 <dajobe> har har, in [off] logged stuff.  Sean and Seth got caught out!
22:58:39 <AaronSw> had a feeling
22:58:46 <AaronSw> * AaronSw feels left out...
22:59:28 <dajobe> I did ask them to take it elsewhere but they refused
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23:01:29 <dajobe> AaronSw: do look in logs for earlier mention of updated URI schemes web page
23:01:37 <AaronSw> just saw it, thanks
23:02:06 <AaronSw> * AaronSw likes new schemes page very much
23:02:19 <AaronSw> but wonders where DanC got such nonsensical identifiers
23:05:06 <AaronSw> aha, it's by removing the AEIOURLSTaeiourlsth characters
23:05:08 <AaronSw> * AaronSw wonders why
23:05:35 <SethR> dajobe: for the record, we did take our discussion off list
23:06:36 <AaronSw> dajobe, re rss feeds, have you seen the new ones up at http://blogspace.com/rss/feeds/ ?
23:06:56 <dajobe> checking; just added 8+ from ones people were testing in my viewer
23:07:11 <dajobe> strangely, many in Estonia
23:07:21 <AaronSw> added washington post, plus a whole slew of weblogs, etc.
23:08:26 <dajobe> how do you get them?
23:09:03 <AaronSw> the weblogs are submitted by folks who use http://logicerror.com/blogifyYourPage
23:09:27 <dajobe> oh, you've scraped them from HTML pages
23:09:35 <AaronSw> oh, yes
23:13:45 <dajobe> better update rss info for Winer 0.93 :-)
23:13:58 <AaronSw> ooh, good point -- forgot about that
23:15:24 <sbp> Ah, hi Aaron
23:32:22 <SethR> http://robustai.net/sem/doc/DataStructure.html
23:32:22 <dc_rdfig> E: http://robustai.net/sem/doc/DataStructure.html from SethR
23:32:51 <SethR> E:| Sem (Semantic Memory) 
23:32:51 <dc_rdfig> titled item E
23:34:21 <sbp> E:great!
23:34:21 <dc_rdfig> commented item E
23:35:04 <SethR> E: This defines an internal data structure of an application
23:35:04 <dc_rdfig> commented item E
23:35:32 <SethR> E: it is not proposed to replace or extend the external RDF data model
23:35:32 <dc_rdfig> commented item E
23:36:17 <SethR> now wish me luck .. i start coding tonight !
23:36:53 <sbp> excellent
23:37:31 <SethR> hopefully i cleared up all the problems with the last diagram .. your questions were most useful, thanks
23:41:25 <sbp> no problem. I'm glad to see it
23:41:34 <sbp> It's quite clear now
23:47:06 <AaronSw> rss info updated with 0.93
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