00:02:10 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-interest/2001May/0054.html 00:02:11 A: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-interest/2001May/0054.html from AaronSw 00:02:21 A:|QName Problem Isn't One 00:02:22 titled item A 00:03:13 A:to combat misconceptions about the RDF QName->URI function 00:03:14 commented item A 00:03:29 A:... now watch the flames roll in... 00:03:30 commented item A 00:29:08 GabeW has joined #rdfig 01:09:09 Disconnected from irc.openprojects.net (ERROR :Closing Link: logger[tatooine.ilrt.bris.ac.uk] by forward.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for logger[tatooine.ilrt.bris.ac.uk])) 01:09:09 Attempting to reconnect 01:10:04 logger has joined #rdfig 01:10:04 topic is: [WWW10 Edition] Semantic Web (archives: http://rdfig.xmlhack.com) 01:10:04 Users on #rdfig: logger GabeW AaronSw bijan eikeon dc_rdfig baud Nabil 01:10:05 Links and more info at: http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/ 01:20:51 DanC_hk has joined #rdfig 01:22:11 Hey DanC. 01:22:47 hi. setting up for devday here. 01:22:57 Cool. 01:23:11 ed says hi. 01:23:18 Ah! 01:23:25 I return the greeting. 01:23:28 this channel is projected, just now, btw. 01:23:36 Eek! 01:23:44 Hello Hong Kong! 01:23:56 there are only 3 of us in the room, though. 01:24:14 my talk is in T-35 min. 01:24:14 Well, two of you make a quality audience, so. 01:24:19 Eek. 01:24:22 What on? 01:24:26 eek: exactly! 01:24:36 * bijan notes that he knows a victim of the Great China Hacker assault: http://www.exobox.com/ 01:24:37 what on: good question! any suggestions? 01:24:45 Erhm. 01:24:57 "A day in the life of the semantic web" is the general theme I intend to talk on. 01:25:12 Well, I just read a paper about the problems of sharing knowledge between different inference engines. 01:25:16 Er..*started* to read. 01:25:19 I'm deciding which of the recent hacks to present: RSS from our home page, palmpilot stuff, circles-and-arrows, etc. 01:25:36 sharing: interesting. 01:25:37 And I read some Loom stuff on subsuming ontologies over a wide scale... 01:25:58 Loom---must be studied. 01:26:02 * DanC_hk disconnects from the projector... 01:27:00 Hmm. A day in the life of the semantic web... 01:27:08 "I read your news today, oh boy." 01:27:20 "Your rules tell me that it's time to leave!" 01:27:44 "You'd love to turn me ononononon..." 01:28:52 Well, remember, *never show fear*> 01:30:03 edd has joined #rdfig 01:41:59 RalphS has joined #rdfig 01:42:12 Hiya Ralph. 01:42:29 hey all. about to chair WWW10 Semantic Web DevDay track :-) 01:42:47 mmm, bijan: want to chair it remotely? :) 01:42:53 Sure! 01:43:10 I've called you all here.... 01:43:20 hmm. speaker-mobile-phone for 7 hours. could be costly. or ip-phone?! 01:43:45 Just project the channel on the screen! 01:43:55 ArtB has joined #rdfig 01:44:37 Good morning Art. 01:48:17 bijan has quit (Ping timeout for bijan[login7.isis.unc.edu]) 01:48:36 rBijan has joined #rdfig 01:51:21 rBijan is now known as bijan 02:11:23 RalphS is now welcoming people to the session. 02:12:02 ralph notes emiller's son born last week. 02:13:01 room is pretty full. 02:13:53 http://potlach.org/people/alex/ 02:13:53 B: http://potlach.org/people/alex/ from DanC_hk 02:14:26 B:|Alexander Christian Miller 02:14:26 titled item B 02:14:32 B:born 1 May 2001! 02:14:32 commented item B 02:14:32 Isn't dan speaking? 02:14:43 ralph is doing his introduction. 02:15:18 Intro for the whole track? 02:15:25 * edd nods. 02:17:35 ralph notes the semantic web has more than just navigational links, ie. semantic links. 02:17:40 introduces DanC. 02:18:30 title of DanC's slides; "A Day in the Life of the Semantic Web" 02:19:07 sbp has joined #rdfig 02:19:14 Oh boy! 02:19:40 danc "the phone rings, and up comes a description of the caller, and a list of plans and meetings that involves the caller" 02:20:08 danc "the caller and i often use irc, and scribble it in there, and web sites get updated..." 02:21:10 talking about deciding travelling arrangements ... danc wants to get the info into his palm pilot from the online meeting 02:21:28 danc "the bane of my existence is doign anything the compute rcould do for me" 02:21:54 Heh. I believe that. 02:22:03 object of the semantic web: making it cost-effective for people to record their knowledge for machine conspumption -- reducing the cost, increasing the value 02:22:22 danc moves on to start talking about DAML and OIL. 02:24:55 explains rdf syntax basics, URIs for terms. 02:26:03 explains namespace prefixes and demonstrates the XML syntax of RDF 02:26:31 Yes, I've been struggling with how to incorporate this into part ii. 02:26:49 explains Class and subClassOf 02:27:00 danc "i just learned what ontologies mean in the last few months ... " 02:27:09 Heh 02:27:15 shows type, subclass relations on screen. 02:27:20 http://www.daml.org/2001/03/daml+oil-index 02:27:20 C: http://www.daml.org/2001/03/daml+oil-index from bijan 02:27:37 C:|DAML+OIL, March 2001 version. 02:27:38 titled item C 02:27:52 C:What DanC is talking about...as a last minute sub! 02:27:54 commented item C 02:28:08 C:*Right* now, so mind your manners. 02:28:15 commented item C 02:28:17 mentions that using subClassof information, we can infer rdf:type relations ... 02:28:35 audience member says "is this like finding a trnasitive closure of a graph "... danc says yes. 02:29:19 refers to timbl's cwm 02:30:34 talks about domain and range of properties. 02:30:34 http://www.mozilla.org/docs/xul/xulnotes/template-outliner.html 02:30:35 D: http://www.mozilla.org/docs/xul/xulnotes/template-outliner.html from edd 02:30:58 D:|The Outliner stuff from XUL 02:30:58 DanC_hk: properties are first class citizens; they can be arcs and nodes 02:30:58 titled item D 02:31:41 AaronSw has quit (Ping timeout for AaronSw[c930384-a.hlndpk1.il.home.com]) 02:31:42 danc introduces daml. 02:31:59 DanC_hk: DAML+OIL: Set Operations 02:32:05 explains how they came up with a list of common useful terms 02:32:09 * bijan reading the DAML walkthrough and trying to imagine DanC's voice...which /me's never heard. 02:32:53 * sbp wonders how far apart ArtB and Edd are in the room 02:32:54 explains unionOf intersectionOf disjointWith 02:33:36 shows that cwm can be run with daml rules to show contradictions 02:34:27 explains the 'first' and 'rest' operations in DAML 02:34:37 came about cos RDF sequences caused trouble for describing lists 02:34:47 so first and rest as a list vocabulary came into being 02:34:58 Greenspun's law. 02:37:29 Hi Sean - Edd's about two meters in front of me :-) 02:38:06 Heh, you can look over his shoulder to see what he's writing. Oh hang on, you don't need to :-) 02:38:06 edd has quit (Read error to edd[203.85.255.40]: Connection reset by peer) 02:38:21 Oops. Looks like wireless kicked out. 02:38:41 edd has joined #rdfig 02:39:07 danc concludes, takes questions. 02:39:35 That was quick! 02:39:48 That's what I was thinking 02:40:18 * bijan claps anyway....good going Dan! 02:40:36 member of the DAML+OIL actvitiy points out 02:40:49 People who fill in deserve boostering. 02:40:59 http://www.ontoknowledge.org/oil/ 02:41:00 E: http://www.ontoknowledge.org/oil/ from edd 02:41:26 E:|OIL 02:41:26 titled item E 02:42:16 RalphS: that Carole Goble? 02:42:53 danc moves on now. 02:43:06 finished with daml, talks about some tools he has. 02:43:08 edd has quit (Read error to edd[203.85.255.40]: Connection reset by peer) 02:43:15 Ugh... 02:44:02 * sbp is trying to figure out how to express that a bunch of Classes are pairwise disjoint in Notation3 02:44:43 edd has joined #rdfig 02:45:33 talks about RSS in XHTML 02:45:33 describes his XSLT script for getting RSS items from the W3C homepage. 02:45:38 shows meerkat. 02:45:45 audience member asks how meerkat knew about the channel. 02:45:56 (Lucky guess) 02:45:57 answer: just told rael about its existence. 02:46:52 danc talks about his palm pilot calendar syncing 02:47:05 palm pilot -> rdf 02:47:09 rdf via xslt -> html 02:47:30 . http://www.w3.org/2001/05dc-hkg/trip-sched 02:47:46 that last URL protected :) 02:47:49 Needs... 02:47:50 but that's what he's showing on the screne 02:47:52 BOut to say ;) 02:49:07 Aw... I guess you just have to be there 02:49:31 danc wants top run a query engine over his scheudle. 02:49:35 he hopes to do that over lunch :) 02:49:39 danc finishes. 02:49:40 edd has quit (Read error to edd[203.85.255.40]: Connection reset by peer) 02:50:46 edd has joined #rdfig 02:51:17 danc wants top run a query engine over his scheudle. 02:51:18 he hopes to do that over lunch :) 02:51:18 danc finishes. 02:51:18 audience member asks about subsumptive and some other types of relationships 02:51:54 ralph now starts to talk abot annotea 02:52:12 "a generic annotation environment using rdf/xml" 02:52:22 that would be [ a daml:Disjoint; daml:first :Car; daml:rest (:Tree :Book)]. 02:52:36 er... I think. 02:52:37 Hey dan! 02:52:44 Oh... cheers Dan :-) And well done on your speech 02:52:46 Sounds like a good show. 02:52:55 earlier danc talked about it would be good to get chump annotations into Annotea. 02:53:02 Yep. 02:53:07 02:53:07 Annotea: http://www.w3.org/2001/Annotea 02:53:15 * DanC_hk checks in his slide, such as they are... 02:53:21 goals of annotea: to support collaborative working groups with a general web annotation system, 02:53:26 I started digging on an IRC-->annotea interface.... 02:53:31 and to demonstrate the SW 02:53:35 Should just finish the chimp and role from there. 02:53:56 ArtB: what do i need to get set up on annotea? 02:54:05 yes... don't do a specific IRC->annotea thingy; do a general IRC/RDF thingy and use it to interface with annotea. 02:54:41 IIRC, edd pointed me to annotea, but they just have textual comments, yes? 02:54:54 ralph encourages folks to check out annotea code and run your own oen 02:55:13 * sbp wonders about Annotea ports for IIS 02:55:27 So, actually, current chumps are just an XSLT away from annoteabliss? 02:56:06 * edd finds the form at http://annotest.w3.org/access 02:56:19 edd - do you mean with Amaya or the bookmarklets or Annozilla? 02:56:28 ArtB: Amaya 02:57:01 edd - I'd start with http://www.w3.org/2001/Annotea 02:57:13 * edd fills in the access request form 02:57:35 ralph explains that annotea uses POST, GeT PUT and DELETE 02:57:40 RDF is sent to and returned from the server 02:57:43 bijan - an annotation body can contain any HTML 02:58:12 Ah, right. 02:58:15 any XML? 02:58:28 a POST stores the RDF in a database and returns the URI it assigned to 'that package' of RDF 02:58:30 For the semantiChimp, I was looking for RDF/XML commetns. 02:58:48 sbp - XML vs HTML - that's a browser issue. Annotea doesn't care. 02:58:51 But plain chump is just text. 02:59:06 Ah! 02:59:10 Cool; so it can store any textual data 02:59:10 when surfing, send a URI with a GET to the annotea server, it returns an RDF/XML list of all the annotations 02:59:16 So it's just orthoganal. 03:00:03 ralph explains that raw HTTP is used, they're looking at where it might be appopriate to use WebDAV 03:01:34 shows a graph of an annotation 03:01:45 an annotation is anything with rdf:type of Annotation 03:01:49 http://www.w3.org/2001/Talks/05www10-swfig/all.htm 03:01:49 F: http://www.w3.org/2001/Talks/05www10-swfig/all.htm from DanC_hk 03:02:02 F:|Building Ontologies with RDF and DAML+OIL 03:02:02 titled item F 03:02:03 edd has quit (Read error to edd[203.85.255.40]: Connection reset by peer) 03:02:07 F:my talk from yesterday 03:02:08 commented item F 03:02:39 edd has joined #rdfig 03:02:42 F:Complete with more of those neat SVG diagrams.. ah, accessible image formats 03:02:42 commented item F 03:03:06 * edd getting tired of these connectivity breaks 03:03:25 * edd misses ralph's explaantion of why RDF is ideal for Annotea ... anyone fill in? 03:04:18 q; can you only annotate complete documents or partial documents? 03:04:31 a; ralph explains the context property of an annotation. 03:04:38 F:all the [parts|http://www.w3.org/2001/Talks/05www10-swfig/] of the talk 03:04:38 commented item F 03:04:40 Edd - the point was that new properties can be added to an annotation without having to change the Annotea server or the Annotea protocol. 03:05:23 ArtB: thanks. same reasons we wanted for RSS -- evolvability 03:06:27 edd - partial vs complete. The Annotea protocol doesn't specify. The Amaya implementation of Annotea allows the user to create document-level annotations or fine-grained [e.g. the current selection, part of a SVG element] annotations. 03:06:49 http://www.w3.org/2001/Talks/www10-Annotea-devday/all.htm 03:06:50 G: http://www.w3.org/2001/Talks/www10-Annotea-devday/all.htm from DanC_hk 03:07:08 G:|Annotea: A Generic Annotation Environment Using RDF/XML 03:07:08 titled item G 03:07:18 G:|the slides Ralph is presenting 03:07:18 titled item G 03:08:58 ralph explains that annotations can be threaded like a discussion. 03:09:05 jonb has joined #rdfig 03:09:45 and that they didn't think that a reply to an annotation should be an annotation, they invented the type reply. 03:10:02 at some point the future they may decide that reply is a subclass of annotation, when they've decided... 03:10:17 ArtB: Those bookmarklets are really great, BTW 03:11:06 * ArtB grins to Sean and suggests that he give Annozilla a try ... 03:12:17 * sbp tries to find a reference to Annozilla... 03:12:39 Got it 03:12:51 http://annozilla.mozdev.org/ 03:12:52 H: http://annozilla.mozdev.org/ from sbp 03:12:59 H:|Annozilla 03:13:00 titled item H 03:13:18 * edd gets annotea working in Amaya 03:13:41 Sean - I'm going to give a demo in about 10 minutes and in my demo I use both Mozilla and NC. For some [unknown] reason, they seem to be fighting with each and Moz seems to kill NC. So, for the moment, I'm reluctant to touch these browser until after my demo. 03:14:20 ... Thus I'm not able to post URIs to this channel ... 03:14:38 ralph metions the chump on a slide 03:14:44 Hmm... interesting. Well, I'm going to attempt to install it with Ns6 anyway, and see how it goes 03:14:49 see future ideas for annotea slide. 03:15:13 Oh, and I'd better try to find my Annotea user/pass combo as well; ugh 03:15:38 To use Annozilla, I needed to install the 0.8.1 version of Mozilla. 03:15:57 Haven't tried NS 6. Please let me know how it goes. 03:16:11 O.K., I'll start it up and try it right now 03:18:02 Jose Kahan from W3c demonstrates anotea with amaya 03:21:55 * sbp has installed Annozilla on Ns6, and is restarting the browser... 03:23:43 hmm, annozilla doesn't work on my mozilla 03:23:54 about:mozilla says version is "Mozilla 0.8.1+" 03:24:06 which i got from debian unstable. 03:25:34 Yep, it doesn't appear to have worked on Ns6 either 03:27:52 edd - what do you mean by it doesn't work? 03:29:11 Edd, Sean - go to http://www.w3.org/2001/Annotea - do you see any annotations? 03:30:55 Where would the annotations be? I've got nothing 03:31:10 ArtB: the prefs dialog. seems i have anewer than 0.8.1. i see annos in amaya just fine. 03:33:28 * DanC_hk updates http://www.w3.org/Talks/ to show the Annotea slides and my RDF/DAML+OIL slides 03:33:48 * DanC_hk fails to publish my slides from to day; can't cvs commit them. 03:36:25 * sbp sees the Annotations just fin in Amaya too, but can't get Ns6 to work... ugh 03:38:29 art demos the bookmarklet stuff. 03:39:18 Cool 03:40:40 Oh, note to Art: if you make the annotation bookmarklets links, then you can just drag them onto the toolbar 03:41:43 http://www.w3.org/2000/02/collaboration/annotation/JavaScript/Annotea-JavaScript.html 03:41:44 I: http://www.w3.org/2000/02/collaboration/annotation/JavaScript/Annotea-JavaScript.html from sbp 03:42:11 I:|Annotea Bookmarklets, by ArtB 03:42:13 titled item I 03:46:01 eric p describes his rdf database tool suite: and rdf parser, rdf databases, and algae -- a generalized rdf query engien 03:47:42 * sbp notes that Karl has just annotated the same document as I have, at roughly the same time 03:49:52 in ericp's db, URIs are defined only once. 03:50:00 then uses inside integer keys to refer to the URIs. 03:50:06 so gets pretty good compression on repetitive data. 03:51:06 algae has s-expression syntax: 03:51:18 sbp has quit (Bye, bye!) 03:51:41 (ask '( (URI ?varname ?URI ) ( URI ?var "literal" ):collect '(?doc)) 03:52:02 (umm, no question mark intended on the second isntance of "URI") 03:52:48 the query language gets trnslated into a graph before processing 03:52:56 so alternative query syntaxes are possible. 04:00:21 http://www.w3.org/2001/Talks/0505-perl-RDF-lib/all.htm 04:00:23 J: http://www.w3.org/2001/Talks/0505-perl-RDF-lib/all.htm from edd 04:00:49 J:|Eric Prud'hommeaux's presentation on RDFdb and Algae 04:00:50 titled item J 04:00:54 * DanC_hk thinks Eric blew away the audience... he sure made me think. 04:01:15 * edd was impressed 04:07:04 ArtB has quit (Read error to ArtB[203.85.255.55]: EOF from client) 04:14:32 DanC_hk has quit (Ping timeout for DanC_hk[203.85.255.35]) 04:16:19 RalphS has quit (Leaving) 04:39:44 * edd notes that its lunchtime, but he's not eating. 04:40:49 * jonb waves 04:41:11 hey jonb 04:41:25 having fun 04:42:16 yeah 04:42:27 i just found out that hong kong airport has wireless! 04:42:36 so i'll be happy while waiting for the plane 04:42:49 when are you leaving? 04:43:09 wireless as in 802.11b? 04:43:13 tomorrow, but not until 23:50 04:43:14 802, YES. 04:43:19 * edd takes capslock off. 04:43:19 cool 05:14:56 edd has quit (Read error to edd[203.85.255.40]: Connection reset by peer) 05:16:14 edd has joined #rdfig 05:17:13 edd has quit (Killed (NickServ (This nick is reserved by another user))) 05:17:19 rotceh has joined #rdfig 05:20:58 rotceh has quit (Read error to rotceh[203.85.255.40]: Connection reset by peer) 05:21:57 rotceh has joined #rdfig 05:22:08 rotceh is now known as edd 05:39:22 DanC_hk has joined #rdfig 05:44:03 RalphS has joined #rdfig 05:44:18 ArtB has joined #rdfig 05:47:37 eric van der vlist is talking now 05:47:44 he is introducing RSS 1.0 06:00:32 * RalphS has just been told that the WWW10 DevDay closing plenary has been moved to 30 minutes earlier 06:00:55 RalphS: might be a good idea to give 10 minutes each to the folk who want to talk about their stuff and axe the panel 06:01:29 I think there are a lot of pent-up questions people want to discuss, so even a 30-minute panel is useful, IMHO 06:01:47 OK, but I don't think it'll end up being about what I thought it was going to be about. 06:01:54 What kind of questions do you think are pent-up? 06:02:47 I don't know -- there were hands after DanC's talk and during Jose's talk that didn't get ack'd 06:03:17 OK... Let's call it a "Q&A" then, I have some seed questions I could use if everyone's quiet :) 06:03:35 Q&A: ok, sorry about your panel plans :( 06:03:43 * edd weeps copiously 06:03:44 * ArtB thinking about possible questions/issues, wonders if Stu Wiebel (sp?) is present ... 06:04:30 ArtB: if he's not then I'll ask the xml schema/rdf schema ques :) 06:04:30 :-) 06:05:43 * DanC_hk better update his XML schema for RDF real quick before the panel/Q&A session... 06:06:11 * RalphS makes a note on behalf of DanC observing EvdV's use of http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns##li 06:06:18 * ArtB wonder is DanC/Ralph/DanBri should be proactive and just say what the W3C plans ... 06:07:41 http://www.w3.org/2001/04rs22/ 06:07:41 K: http://www.w3.org/2001/04rs22/ from DanC_hk 06:08:00 K:|an XML Schema for (a little bit of) RDF 06:08:01 titled item K 06:08:50 RalphS: what's the deal w.r.t

? 06:10:07 http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2001/05/02/semanticwebsite.html 06:10:07 L: http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2001/05/02/semanticwebsite.html from edd 06:10:29 L:|Article version of Eric van der Vlist's presentation on "Building a Semantic Website" 06:10:29 titled item L 06:10:36 L:As presented today at WWW10 06:10:37 commented item L 06:11:50 "li" is syntactic sugar; it becomes http://www.w3.org/1999/02/220-rdf-syntax-ns#_ in a graph. Eric's query processor can interpret it similarly, I s'pose 06:15:03 RalphS: i knew that about li, i just didn't quite catch why it should be noteworthy that vdV used it... 06:39:41 dajobe is now presenting the irc logs 06:39:50 so what i am typing right now will appear on the projector 06:40:08 my words will appear in RDF/XML 06:40:25 GK has joined #rdfig 06:44:59 GK has quit (Read error to GK[203.85.255.61]: Connection reset by peer) 06:56:29 A participant asks where the logs are kept in XHTML 06:57:04 GK has joined #rdfig 07:00:24 GK has left channel 07:05:37 GabeW has quit (Read error to GabeW[adsl-216-103-252-4.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net]: EOF from client) 07:20:38 baud has quit (forward.openprojects.net brin.openprojects.net) 07:20:38 bijan has quit (forward.openprojects.net brin.openprojects.net) 07:20:38 edd has quit (forward.openprojects.net brin.openprojects.net) 07:20:38 RalphS has quit (forward.openprojects.net brin.openprojects.net) 07:20:38 ArtB has quit (forward.openprojects.net brin.openprojects.net) 07:20:38 DanC_hk has quit (forward.openprojects.net brin.openprojects.net) 07:20:38 eikeon has quit (forward.openprojects.net brin.openprojects.net) 07:20:38 dc_rdfig has quit (forward.openprojects.net brin.openprojects.net) 07:20:41 dc_rdfig has joined #rdfig 07:20:41 eikeon has joined #rdfig 07:20:41 baud has joined #rdfig 07:20:41 bijan has joined #rdfig 07:20:41 edd has joined #rdfig 07:20:41 DanC_hk has joined #rdfig 07:20:41 RalphS has joined #rdfig 07:20:41 ArtB has joined #rdfig 07:20:45 Links and more info at: http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/ 07:43:22 nifty presentation, but note the glitches... ID="room/2" ... / isn't allowed in an ID 07:52:16 http://www.nesstar.org/sdk/neoom.html 07:52:16 M: http://www.nesstar.org/sdk/neoom.html from ArtB 07:52:43 http://www.nesstar.org/M_What_Is.shtml 07:52:44 N: http://www.nesstar.org/M_What_Is.shtml from DanC_hk 07:52:52 N:|What is NESSTAR? 07:52:52 titled item N 07:53:10 N:a guy from NESSTAR just demonstrated web services based on RDF. 07:53:10 commented item N 07:53:12 M:| Objectifying the Web the "light" way: an RDF-based 07:53:12 titled item M 07:53:13 framework for the description of Web objects 07:53:25 oops. 07:53:44