00:00:24 <AaronSw> does java have a url parsing library?
00:04:48 <danja> eerrm - not sure exacty -
00:04:53 <danja> I took that as read
00:05:31 <danja> Class URL represents a Uniform Resource Locator, a pointer to a "resource" on the World Wide Web. A resource can be something as simple as a file or a directory, or it can be a reference to a more complicated object, such as a query to a database or to a search engine. More information on the types of URLs and their formats can be found at: 
00:06:04 <danja> here : http://www.ncsa.uiuc.edu/demoweb/url-primer.html
00:06:05 <danja>  
00:06:39 <danja> A URL can optionally specify a "port", which is the port number to which the TCP connection is made on the remote host machine. If the port is not specified, the default port for the protocol is used instead. For example, the default port for http is 80. An alternative port could be specified as: 
00:06:53 <danja> again :http://www.ncsa.uiuc.edu:8080/demoweb/url-primer.html
00:06:53 <danja>  
00:07:11 <danja> it continues..
00:07:19 <danja> Sun Java docs
00:08:09 <danja> interesting methods, e.g. 
00:08:18 <danja> getAuthority()
00:08:28 <danja> Returns the authority part of this URL.
00:08:31 <danja> ?
00:11:04 <danja> Java would be lovely, if it was os...
00:13:08 <danja> bloody great knowing your code would work on a gergil too
00:15:40 <danja> http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4/docs/relnotes/features.html
00:15:41 <dc_rdfig> A: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4/docs/relnotes/features.html from danja
00:16:08 <danja> A:| Java 1.4 beta changes
00:16:08 <dc_rdfig> titled item A
00:16:22 <danja> A: got assert
00:16:22 <dc_rdfig> commented item A
00:16:39 <danja> A: but no sign of functional 
00:16:39 <dc_rdfig> commented item A
00:18:38 <danja> A: still strongly typed, guys...
00:18:38 <dc_rdfig> commented item A
00:27:50 <look> AaronSw: I think that's intentional... :)
00:27:56 <look> ack!
00:28:03 <AaronSw> what is?
00:28:11 <look> I think my client is too smart for its own good
00:28:23 <look> I type "A:" and it expanded it to AaronSw
00:28:25 <AaronSw> ahh, i see
00:28:35 <AaronSw> take out the space after the :
00:28:49 <look> A:I think that's intentional... :)
00:28:50 <dc_rdfig> commented item A
00:29:03 <look> A:The new ImageIO API in Java 1.4 is great
00:29:03 <dc_rdfig> commented item A
00:29:08 <look> That works then
00:29:28 <deltab> look: you should be able to turn that off
00:30:08 <deltab> you'd still be able to complete nicks with Tab, iirc
00:30:45 <look> I'll experiment
00:36:27 <sbp> sbp has joined #rdfig
00:37:47 <Morbus> Morbus has joined #rdfig
00:39:50 <AaronSw> Hi Morbus
00:39:53 <AaronSw> Hi Sean
00:40:31 <Morbus> good day. its too hot to think.
00:41:27 <AaronSw> too hot to think: ahh, so that's why you're on IRC ;-)
00:41:39 <Morbus> hehehe. yeah, you nailed that exactly :)
00:42:15 <sbp> Hi Aaron
00:42:34 <AaronSw> so you two, in case you didn't see my note above:
00:42:43 <AaronSw> <AaronSw> OK, note to anyone here... effective now any changes you make to logicerror.com/blogspace.com/etc. (any of the sites that were down before) are likely to be lost
00:43:03 <Morbus> ah. i can't even get to either of those sites, myself.
00:43:07 <AaronSw> That's as of an hour ago.
00:43:14 <Morbus> tried earlier today to post bond's new faq thingy and just timed out.
00:43:17 <AaronSw> morbus, you still can't? they came back up...
00:43:23 <sbp> Will the SURF stuff be lost?
00:43:27 <Morbus> that was about five hours ago. lemme try again.
00:43:31 <AaronSw> No SURF got in before the deadline.
00:43:36 <sbp> Phew
00:44:20 <Morbus> ok. yeah, i can see em now
00:45:42 <danja> jeez, edd has a mail response with attitude
00:45:50 <AaronSw> edd?
00:45:59 <danja> xml.com
00:46:04 <AaronSw> what'd he say?
00:46:18 <danja> standard issue - *** off
00:46:26 <danja> reflector
00:46:35 <AaronSw> odd... he's not usually like that
00:46:46 <danja> no, it was a machine
00:47:07 <danja> worse than danc's
00:47:18 <AaronSw> ahh, he gets a lot of mail, tho
00:47:26 <danja> so he says
00:47:37 <AaronSw> and most of it is probably:
00:47:51 <AaronSw> come visit my great xml {site,conference,book,t-shirt,movie,safari}
00:48:12 <sbp> XML safari?
00:48:16 <danja> XML-safari - we have a future!!!
00:48:35 <Morbus> Morbus has quit
00:49:30 <danja> in the jungle, the quiet jungle, the markup sleeps to-night...
00:50:57 <sbp> lol
00:51:25 <danja> * danja regrets the fact that sbp know's he's had wine
00:52:03 <danja> otherwise he'd join in on the chorus ;-)
00:52:37 <sbp> that's probably true, although I was actually reminded of Homer singling it during a recent episode of The Simpsons
00:52:46 <danja> * danja reverts to topic
00:52:50 <sbp> s/singling/singing
00:52:56 <Morbus> Morbus has joined #rdfig
00:53:02 <danja> what he sing?
00:53:02 <Morbus> grumble, grumble
00:53:10 <danja> hi morbus
00:53:12 <sbp> anything else interesting happening in the SW community recently?
00:53:13 <sbp> wb
00:53:36 <Morbus> hey danja.
00:53:49 <danja> what'ya doin?
00:54:09 <Morbus> right now? getting sweaty and annoyed at my computer :) ...
00:54:14 <danja> heh
00:54:25 <Morbus> and yourself?
00:54:58 <danja> I *was* trying* to follow some threads about anon resources
00:55:14 <danja> then I drank some wine
00:55:18 <danja> etc.
00:55:30 <sbp> except you couldn't find them because they don't have URIs?
00:55:35 <Morbus> yeah, that would do it :)
00:56:00 <danja> no - trying 3 nights on end is a bit frustrating
00:56:06 <danja> w3c
00:56:37 <danja> the list archive dies
00:56:50 <sbp> Yeah...
00:56:57 <danja> urn/uri/or pst?
00:57:12 <danja> if it's unavailable...
00:57:52 <sbp> what for? sorry, I've lost the plot a bit
00:58:03 <danja> or pts ? I foget...
00:58:50 <danja> morbus said "grumble, grumble"
00:58:56 <sbp> er... PTS. I think we're going for tag: instead, but I'm not certain
00:59:01 <danja> so here's my latest
00:59:20 <danja> like the tag: that matey done?
01:00:08 <danja> (the other rec?)
01:00:18 <sbp> er... http://www.taguri.org/
01:00:28 <sbp> s/matey/sandro
01:00:31 <sbp> I presume :-)
01:01:08 <danja> ta - didn't see the url before
01:01:50 <sbp> I'm trying to build an inference engine on top of SWIPT... it's so difficult! The problem is representing the inferences in NTriples
01:01:52 <danja> ta - didn't see the url beforei only saw the text ietf (or whatever) ascii version
01:02:14 <danja> what algorithm?
01:02:23 <sbp> Ah yes: sandro's meant to be submitting it to IETF as a rec., but there's soem more delay
01:02:54 <sbp> algorithm: that's the next difficult bit - trying to debug it etc.
01:02:54 <danja> while you are about it sbp
01:03:01 <danja> sbp
01:03:08 <sbp> yes?
01:03:09 <danja> here a minute...
01:03:31 <danja> * danja looking for the ref
01:05:04 <danja> aaagha, can't find
01:05:12 <danja> anyway,
01:05:33 <danja> you'll have it it one of your boxes
01:06:05 <danja> using EG (pierce an all that)
01:06:11 <sbp> EG?
01:06:12 <danja> as a strategy
01:06:54 <danja> existential graphs
01:08:18 <danja> pre - cg
01:08:18 <sbp> sbp has quit
01:10:08 <danja> ouch - bedtime.
01:10:13 <danja> danja has quit
01:10:20 <Morbus> xml-rpc or soap?
01:10:29 <Morbus> which would you rather work with?
01:10:53 <AaronSw> oouch, hard question
01:10:58 <AaronSw> neither... i'd use mark baker's service
01:11:24 <Morbus> url?
01:12:17 <Morbus> once i finish ampheta, i'll be working on a game that lives off webservers and talks to other webservers through one of those. i want to choose xml-rpc cos of the oreilly book ;)
01:13:14 <sbp> sbp has joined #rdfig
01:13:36 <Morbus> wb
01:13:42 <sbp> thank you
01:13:59 <AaronSw> AaronSw has quit
01:14:01 <Morbus> xml-rpc or soap? which would you rather work with?
01:14:32 <sbp> I'd rather use Mark Baker's service
01:15:11 <Morbus> hehe. goddamit <g>. that's what aaron said too, and then he reset before he could give me more info.
01:15:21 <sbp> I know, I just read the logs! :-)
01:15:24 <Morbus> hehe
01:16:12 <sbp> Seriously though, whichever one has better Python integration
01:16:52 <Morbus> ah. okeedoo. 
01:17:42 <sbp> * sbp hasn't tried out the modules yet...
01:18:11 <Morbus> i haven't touched python at all. mostly a perl lover. with a little cf on the side.
01:18:48 <sbp> if you like OOP, you'll love Python...
01:18:56 <Morbus> oop? blech <g>
01:19:11 <sbp> :-)
01:23:12 <Morbus> Morbus has quit
01:24:25 <Morbus> Morbus has joined #rdfig
01:31:06 <sbp> sbp has quit
01:34:53 <Morbus> Morbus has quit
01:40:38 <Morbus> Morbus has joined #rdfig
01:55:03 <nephrael> nephrael has quit
02:09:16 <Morbus> Morbus has quit
02:12:06 <em> em has quit
02:13:09 <em> em has joined #rdfig
02:19:29 <Morbus> Morbus has joined #rdfig
02:24:33 <Morbus> Morbus is now known as MorbusIff
02:29:25 <nephrael> nephrael has joined #rdfig
02:29:31 <nephrael> Morbus: whay do you mean by " with a little cf on the side. " ?
02:30:42 <MorbusIff> coldfusion
02:31:08 <nephrael> ah.. coldfusion is a dynamic gui kit for html?
02:31:24 <MorbusIff> well, more than that. it's more of a php than a perl
02:31:42 <nephrael> that is good
02:31:44 <nephrael> ;>
02:32:36 <nephrael> have people written perl functions that unroll into objects yet?
02:33:09 <nephrael> (as in printSelectBox(.....) ) ?
02:33:20 <MorbusIff> CGI.pm
02:33:41 <nephrael> i wonder why people don't use that more
02:33:55 <MorbusIff> i don't like it myself. i think code should be separated from design.
02:34:12 <nephrael> well in that senese it is kind of 'declaritive'
02:35:48 <nephrael> yeah that is true.. someione should use ActivePerl if thats what they are looking for
02:37:03 <nephrael> Are there any publich daml inference engines? or does anyone kno of any here?
02:41:15 <MorbusIff> MorbusIff is now known as Morbus
02:41:53 <nephrael> what would people think of an inference engine that allways took 10 seconds per query no mater what?
02:42:15 <nephrael> (meaning it was so big.. it just gave up after 10 seconds)
02:49:12 <Morbus> Morbus has quit
02:51:25 <nephrael> how is daml going to deal with conficting documents?
02:51:58 <nephrael> well documents deplicting infeormation that if understood would conflict
03:18:58 <AaronSw> AaronSw has joined #rdfig
03:19:34 <AaronSw> Grr, power outtage.
03:19:44 <AaronSw> There seems to be some cosmic balance between me and LCS...
03:19:57 <AaronSw> my email comes up, theirs goes down. theirs power comes up, mine goes down.
03:21:56 <nephrael> my emial just came back on. coincidence
03:22:34 <oierw> oierw has quit
03:22:52 <oierw> oierw has joined #rdfig
03:38:36 <cris|bed> cris|bed is now known as cris
03:49:19 <nephrael> nephrael has quit
03:49:43 <nephrael> nephrael has joined #rdfig
04:06:32 <AaronSw> AaronSw has quit
04:08:21 <AaronSw> AaronSw has joined #rdfig
04:56:38 <AaronSw> AaronSw has quit
04:56:54 <AaronSw> AaronSw has joined #rdfig
06:10:45 <deltab> re Python's urlparse and RFC2396: http://sf.net/bugs/?func=detailbug&bug_id=110834&group_id=5470
09:39:10 <Sacha> Sacha has joined #rdfig
09:39:51 <Sacha> Sacha has quit
09:39:57 <Sacha_> Sacha_ has joined #rdfig
09:58:24 <dajobe> dajobe has joined #rdfig
10:06:29 <still> still has joined #rdfig
10:06:38 <dajobe> dajobe has changed the topic to: RDF and Semantic Web Chat (home: http://www.w3.org/RDF/Interest/#irc blog: http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/ )
10:07:30 <still> who has experience in using the package tc57 with RDF validation?
10:08:05 <dajobe> that is a bit too cryptic, what is tc57?
10:08:09 <still> it always throws exception when i try to validate a cim /rdf xmlfile
10:08:30 <still> package tc57  is used to validate the cim/rdf Xml
10:08:57 <still> do u know CIM?
10:08:58 <dajobe> that's nice, what is cim?
10:09:08 <still> Common Infomation Model
10:09:24 <dajobe> sorry, I obviously can't help - I've never heard of any of that
10:09:25 <still> it is a standard of the Electroic Area
10:09:33 <still> never mind
10:09:36 <dajobe> any URLs?
10:09:42 <still> yes
10:09:56 <still> wait
10:10:06 <still> www.cim-rdf.org
10:10:14 <dajobe> http://www.cim-rdf.org/
10:10:14 <dc_rdfig> B: http://www.cim-rdf.org/ from dajobe
10:10:23 <still> yes
10:10:37 <dajobe> no such address
10:10:41 <still> ?
10:10:43 <still> wait
10:10:52 <dajobe> B:|Ignore this
10:10:52 <dc_rdfig> titled item B
10:10:53 <still> or 
10:10:55 <still> sorry
10:11:13 <still> http://www.cim-logic.com
10:11:13 <dc_rdfig> C: http://www.cim-logic.com from still
10:11:58 <still> could u tell me which parse or RDF validate u use?
10:12:19 <dajobe> I use the one I wrote
10:12:28 <still> i have used the parser SiRPAC
10:12:34 <dajobe> C:|CIM Logic
10:12:34 <dc_rdfig> titled item C
10:12:49 <still> o 
10:12:50 <dajobe> C:We develop tools to assist electrical utilities with implementations of the EPRI Common Information Model, which is also known as IEC 61970-301.
10:12:51 <dc_rdfig> commented item C
10:12:56 <dajobe> SiRPAC is a good start
10:13:08 <still> yesyes
10:13:13 <dajobe> online version http://www.w3.org/RDF/Implementations/SiRPAC/
10:13:34 <still> i try to understand the way they do 
10:13:56 <dajobe> there is a new java one ARP: http://www-uk.hpl.hp.com/people/jjc/arp/index.html
10:13:58 <still> but all the api package i found have not show me a good document
10:14:05 <still> o
10:14:18 <still> can it validata a rdf?
10:14:32 <still> does your works validate a rdf?
10:14:36 <dajobe> another good java API is Jena: http://www-uk.hpl.hp.com/people/bwm/rdf/jena/index.htm
10:14:40 <dajobe> arp can validate
10:14:46 <dajobe> for a strict validating one, go for VRP
10:15:02 <still> anyone else ?
10:15:07 <dajobe> VRP at http://www.ics.forth.gr/proj/isst/RDF/
10:15:13 <still> package that could validate
10:15:14 <still> en 
10:15:14 <still> yes
10:15:15 <dajobe> mine doesn't valide yet
10:15:42 <still> i think validate a RDF is too dificult for me 
10:16:01 <still> i can not understand the interfaces defined by the w3c
10:16:12 <libby> libby has joined #rdfig
10:16:21 <still> if i want to write a parse or a validator i must obey the interfaces
10:16:24 <still> shoule i
10:16:25 <still> ?
10:17:00 <dajobe> there are no official rdf (java, or any other lang) APIS, but the stanford rdf api in SiRPAC is very widely used
10:17:13 <dajobe> and jena is a new design, with a nother good novel interface
10:17:25 <bwm> bwm has joined #rdfig
10:17:29 <still> ennnn
10:17:33 <dajobe> and just then, the jena author bwm arrived...
10:17:42 <bwm> Hi folks
10:17:48 <still> the stanford rdf api can only parse a rdf
10:17:54 <dajobe> just explaining jena, sirpac, java rdf apis to still
10:17:58 <still> am i right
10:18:16 <dajobe> rdf parsed from the xml syntax, you mean?
10:18:19 <still> heelo bwm
10:18:31 <bwm> Hi there
10:18:52 <bwm> You seem to be talking about parsers
10:18:57 <still> i mean the api of the stanford package can only parse a RDF xml but could not validate it
10:19:04 <dajobe> still: yes
10:19:10 <dajobe> VRP does the validating
10:19:14 <bwm> errr - what do you mean by validate?
10:19:19 <dajobe> to a schema, I assume?
10:19:25 <still> yes
10:19:25 <still> yes
10:19:34 <still> validate with a schema
10:19:37 <bwm> RDF defines no concept of validation
10:19:53 <bwm> Are you thinking of an XML schema or an RDF schema?
10:20:12 <still> the schema of RDF is different from the schma of standard XML,am i right?
10:20:19 <dajobe> cris: [http://www.cim-logic.com/cim-rdf.htm|CIM-RDF] page and the [http://www.cim-logic.com/cim-rdf/|CIM RDF Schemas]
10:20:21 <still> bwm: RDF schema
10:20:23 <dajobe> C:[http://www.cim-logic.com/cim-rdf.htm|CIM-RDF] page and the [http://www.cim-logic.com/cim-rdf/|CIM RDF Schemas]
10:20:23 <dc_rdfig> commented item C
10:20:58 <bwm> This seems to be one of the problems with calling RDF Schema a Schema language
10:21:08 <dajobe> C:wow, that's large - ~400K of RDFS
10:21:09 <dc_rdfig> commented item C
10:21:10 <bwm> Folks expect it to be used for validationi
10:21:45 <bwm> Its not clear that's what its for - some folks use it for inference.
10:21:48 <still> dajobe: can jena validate ?
10:21:51 <dajobe> that mostly means checking range/domain constraints mentioned make sense applied to data
10:22:21 <bwm> One can check for inconsistencies - but I'm not sure that's the same as validating.
10:22:24 <dajobe> I wanted to rename it 'RDF Data typing' (& other useful bits)
10:22:29 <bwm> Anyway the short answer is not yet.
10:22:39 <still> dajobe: i am confused by a concept 
10:23:00 <bwm> * bwm wonders which concept
10:23:34 <bwm> * bwm but shuts up because still asked dajobe
10:24:18 <still> dajobe: the W3C has defined a interface stuctrue without impls to the RDF parsing.So if a vender want to implement it he must implements all the interfaces for extensible and standard?
10:24:26 <still> bwm: thx hehe
10:24:57 <dajobe> no the w3c has not defined an interface for rdf - the class names in the java are not to be taken as an official interface
10:25:12 <dajobe> but they are widely used
10:25:31 <bwm> * bwm bwm growls at further confusion because of api in w3c namespace
10:25:45 <still> yes
10:25:49 <still> yes
10:26:08 <still> and all the impls will import the package org.w3c.rdf.....
10:26:48 <still> import org.w3c.rdf.*;
10:26:48 <still> import org.w3c.rdf.util.*;
10:26:48 <still> import org.w3c.rdf.model.*;
10:27:15 <still> do u import all these packages in your own parser?
10:27:27 <dajobe> no, mine is written in C and has its own interface
10:27:38 <dajobe> I was concentraing on java since that was what you mentioned
10:27:52 <still> o 
10:28:06 <still> i have thoungt u write in java.:)
10:28:11 <dajobe> my suggestion: stick with importing the above for the moment
10:28:41 <still> o 
10:28:46 <bwm> brian's suggestion - have a look at Jena - its much better
10:28:54 <still> o 
10:28:56 <still> ok
10:29:21 <still> write a parse in c? do u map the xml trees to a B+ tree?
10:29:24 <bwm> And if you want a 'correct' (tho slo) parser try arp
10:29:33 <bwm> and if you want to use c use redland
10:29:41 <still> okok
10:29:57 <still> redland for c,arp for java
10:30:19 <still> dajobe: am i right? the way i think?
10:30:28 <dajobe> The xml syntax encodes the rdf graph; it is transformed to the rdf model - a set of statements that represent the graph.  B+ trees really don't come int o it
10:31:29 <dajobe> well I recommend redland since i wrote it!  Also good for perl & python, but there are pure-perl/python things oyu can look at
10:31:49 <dajobe> see my rdf guide for all this and more - http://www.ilrt.bristol.ac.uk/discovery/rdf/resources/
10:32:07 <still> dajobe: my god! u wrote if.Geniues!
10:32:17 <still> ok
10:32:42 <dajobe> ?
10:33:24 <still> dajobe: u are a very good c programmer and desinger
10:33:25 <still> haha
10:34:04 <dajobe> thx
10:34:39 <still> i write code all the days and view all kinds of docs ,but little i have improved myself
10:34:42 <still> :_((
10:34:55 <still> i dont know why
10:35:06 <still> i want to learn how to design but not only api using
10:36:05 <dajobe> OK
10:36:38 <still> dajobe: can Jena validate RDF?
10:36:56 <dajobe> bwm said not yet
10:37:11 <still> o 
10:37:43 <still> thank u very much
10:37:49 <still> still is now known as still|away
11:17:40 <oierw> oierw has quit
11:26:25 <tdxdave> tdxdave has quit
11:29:41 <still|away> still|away has quit
11:31:09 <dajobe> * dajobe hacks on logger
11:52:05 <danja> danja has joined #rdfig
12:07:50 <danja> bwm - any thoughts on the resource.setURI() thing?
12:09:38 <danja> * danja confesses to already using Jena in ways clearly not intended by the author
12:12:02 <dajobe> grr, Dublin Core having more secret technical discussions.  aarrghh
12:14:00 <em> ???
12:14:19 <em> * em is out of DC loop, but not sure what you're referring to?
12:14:51 <dajobe> well I can't discuss it in *public*, can I!
12:15:24 <em> :) ahh.. the evil boostrab problem
12:16:43 <oierw> oierw has joined #rdfig
12:32:16 <nephrael> nephrael has quit
12:38:35 <zooko> zooko has joined #rdfig
12:49:07 <danja> danja has quit
12:54:36 <Sacha_> Sacha_ has quit
12:59:44 <barstow> barstow has joined #rdfig
13:04:34 <Sacha> Sacha has joined #rdfig
13:05:14 <Sacha> Sacha has quit
13:05:29 <Sacha_> Sacha_ has joined #rdfig
13:14:26 <zooko> zooko is now known as zooko_1_pinkied
13:38:23 <AaronSw> AaronSw has quit
13:49:40 <AaronSw> AaronSw has joined #rdfig
14:17:45 <danbri> danbri has joined #rdfig
14:19:45 <zooko_1_pinkied> zooko_1_pinkied has left channel
14:23:49 <oierw> oierw has quit
14:35:27 <nephrael> nephrael has joined #rdfig
14:36:47 <zooko> zooko has joined #rdfig
14:42:39 <zooko> zooko has left channel
14:45:35 <tdxdave> tdxdave has joined #rdfig
14:50:59 <karld> karld has joined #rdfig
15:01:18 <oierw|out> oierw|out has joined #rdfig
15:09:33 <OpenKern> OpenKern has joined #rdfig
15:15:06 <bijan> bijan has joined #rdfig
15:36:33 <barstow> barstow has quit
15:39:54 <zooko> zooko has joined #rdfig
16:00:35 <Sacha_> Sacha_ has quit
16:04:00 <zooko> zooko has left channel
16:04:39 <lasDesk> lasDesk has joined #rdfig
16:07:50 <Sacha_> Sacha_ has joined #rdfig
16:21:04 <zooko> zooko has joined #rdfig
16:21:33 <zooko> zooko has left channel
16:29:14 <karld> karld has quit
16:32:19 <pbot> pbot has joined #rdfig
16:35:19 <pbot> pbot has quit
16:36:06 <karld> karld has joined #rdfig
16:38:24 <libby> libby has left channel
16:38:38 <cris> cris has quit
16:44:39 <theran> theran has joined #rdfig
17:05:28 <cris> cris has joined #rdfig
17:06:56 <cris> cris is now known as cris|bed
17:23:22 <danbri> danbri has quit
17:34:16 <danbri> danbri has joined #rdfig
17:38:42 <logger> logger has joined #rdfig
17:38:42 <benford.openprojects.net> topic is: RDF and Semantic Web Chat (home: http://www.w3.org/RDF/Interest/#irc blog: http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/ )
17:38:42 <benford.openprojects.net> Users on #rdfig: logger danbri cris|bed theran karld Sacha_ lasDesk bijan OpenKern oierw|out tdxdave nephrael AaronSw bwm @dajobe em tav grove_ deltab look dc_rdfig 
17:38:42 <ChanServ> This channel is logged and blogged: http://logicerror.com/rdfIRCWelcome
17:39:02 <logger> logger has joined #rdfig
17:39:02 <sagan.openprojects.net> topic is: RDF and Semantic Web Chat (home: http://www.w3.org/RDF/Interest/#irc blog: http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/ )
17:39:02 <sagan.openprojects.net> Users on #rdfig: logger danbri cris|bed theran karld Sacha_ lasDesk bijan OpenKern oierw|out tdxdave nephrael AaronSw bwm @dajobe em tav grove_ deltab dc_rdfig look 
17:39:02 <ChanServ> This channel is logged and blogged: http://logicerror.com/rdfIRCWelcome
17:42:35 <dajobe> dajobe has quit
17:51:30 <AaronSw> * AaronSw is suffering from telecon withdrawal ;-)
17:52:37 <Sacha_> Sacha_ has left #rdfig
17:58:52 <bwm> bwm has quit
18:11:57 <danbri> * danbri suffering from blog withdrawal. all quiet on #rdfig lately...
18:12:11 <tav> tav has quit
18:12:11 <nephrael> nephrael has quit
18:12:11 <oierw|out> oierw|out has quit
18:12:11 <theran> theran has quit
18:12:11 <look> look has quit
18:13:08 <barstow> barstow has joined #rdfig
18:13:42 <look> look has joined #rdfig
18:19:49 <danbri> anyone know of a Javascript SOAP implementation?
18:20:41 <danbri> ignore me, should've checked xmlhack instead of google before asking
18:20:46 <bijan> Ouch.
18:20:52 <bijan> I don't *want* to know about such a thing!
18:21:05 <AaronSw> heh, Google brings up:
18:21:06 <danbri> http://xmlhack.com/read.php?item=1307
18:21:06 <dc_rdfig> D: http://xmlhack.com/read.php?item=1307 from danbri
18:21:13 <AaronSw> > A parting shot: if you're after XML bits, don't just try Google, try 
18:21:14 <AaronSw> > <http://xmlhack.com/search.php> too! 
18:21:21 <danbri> D:|SOAP in Javascript toolkit
18:21:21 <dc_rdfig> titled item D
18:22:34 <danbri> D:An as-yet-undetermined prize for first person to hack a 'Semantic Web Services' demo into the [js-prolog|http://ioctl.org/logic/] tool.
18:22:34 <dc_rdfig> commented item D
18:23:22 <theran> theran has joined #rdfig
18:23:47 <danbri> D:Rules... The 'Semantic Web Services' demo should show a question being asked in the prolog environment, where certain values get plugged into a SOAP call and the results folded back into the answers found by js-prolog.
18:23:47 <dc_rdfig> commented item D
18:24:45 <danbri> D:Look at the external/3 predicate for a technique for calling out to other Javascript libraries
18:24:45 <dc_rdfig> commented item D
18:26:31 <danbri> D:see [xmethods|http://www.xmethods.com] for a list of sample web services that speak SOAP.
18:26:31 <dc_rdfig> commented item D
18:27:33 <danbri> D:Pity the idoox js-SOAP only supports IE5+ currently
18:27:33 <dc_rdfig> commented item D
18:31:44 <theran> does it support IE5 for mac?
18:35:03 <danbri> not sure. if the mac has MSXML, quite possibly.
18:35:09 <danbri> see http://www.idoox.com/eap/jsstack/index.html
18:35:52 <danbri> * danbri realises there are two xmlhack.com-hosted ways of commenting on that article (rdfig and xmlhack's own comment facility)
18:36:11 <AaronSw> But only one supports RDF, no?
18:36:22 <danbri> * danbri mails the idoox people asking about non-IE support and possibility of an opensource license
18:36:51 <danbri> only one's readily extractable as XML or RDF at the current time
18:37:55 <dajobe> dajobe has joined #rdfig
18:38:04 <danbri> hi dave
18:38:10 <dajobe> hi
18:38:29 <AaronSw> danbri, looks like http://ilrt.org/discovery/rdf/ has some i18n problems...
18:38:42 <AaronSw> """Vincent Quint will attend Ôcole d'été PDMS 2001"""
18:38:46 <danbri> It was done w/ XML::RSS
18:39:02 <AaronSw> * AaronSw looks at dajobe
18:39:48 <AaronSw> Oh, wait... XML::RSS.
18:39:55 <AaronSw> That's Rael's thingy... sorry
18:40:32 <AaronSw> I think it may be the iso declaration at the top
18:40:40 <AaronSw>  encoding="iso-8859-1"
18:40:42 <danbri> hey, bijan's article made it into the agentweb RSS feed :)
18:40:48 <bijan> Cool!
18:41:07 <danbri> and RSS-Info seems to have sprung back to life!
18:41:13 <AaronSw> bijan: Right next to IBM's smart fridge and fish invading the internet...
18:41:24 <danbri> * danbri should visit 'rdf at a glance' more often
18:41:25 <AaronSw> rss info: yes, for a few hours more at least
18:41:51 <AaronSw> ... turns out our RSS feed was broken! ha ha
18:42:21 <AaronSw> Luckily the place we're going to on vacation is right next to where my box is hosted, so maybe I can take it home.
18:49:11 <bijan> What do the little numbers beside the link mean on agentweb?
18:49:11 <zooko> zooko has joined #rdfig
18:50:19 <zooko> zooko has left #rdfig
18:51:03 <danbri> dunno. maybe click throuhs on their site? age since listed? inverse quality ofset agaisnt cost?
18:52:44 <deltab> which numbers?
18:53:12 <bijan> The leading numbers.
18:53:17 <bijan> Hell, the trailing numbers.
18:53:31 <bijan> trailing numbers are dates, ok.
18:53:34 <bijan> 67 Generic User Modeling Systems (7/6)  
18:53:37 <bijan> ^^
18:53:41 <bijan> What's that?
18:55:13 <deltab> number of hits
18:55:29 <deltab> at the bottom, "Hits in red."
18:55:48 <bijan> Aha! thanks.
18:57:21 <deltab> which for some reason conatins a link to http://www.raverwear.com/
19:04:26 <OpenKern> What are some colleges that a good for AI?
19:04:46 <ambient> ambient has joined #rdfig
19:08:35 <danbri> MIT?
19:08:58 <bijan> Standford?
19:09:05 <bijan> Carnegie Mellon?
19:09:08 <bijan> Pitt?
19:09:21 <bijan> That new jersy one.
19:16:17 <OpenKern> CM delivers distance courses.
19:16:30 <OpenKern> Which is nice.
19:16:37 <theran> UMass/Amherst has good AI (I think).  And it's easy to get into.
19:16:57 <OpenKern> MIT is $300K for 4 years.
19:17:54 <danbri> You can learn from Amazon and Google much cheaper.
19:18:02 <AaronSw> :-)
19:18:24 <AaronSw> * AaronSw is apparently taking courses at Lake Forest College, definitely not known for their AI department ;-)
19:18:44 <bijan> Or much else, it would seem :)
19:20:18 <theran> Has anybody used KM for sw projects?
19:22:15 <bijan> Kernal Manipulations?
19:22:39 <OpenKern> AaronSw, that is ok, we find you with deeper knowledge than say restaurant managment. :D
19:23:05 <OpenKern> Where is LFC?
19:23:26 <theran> bijian: http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mfkb/RKF/km.html
19:24:22 <AaronSw> * AaronSw learned everything he needed to know about restaurant management from Google.
19:24:30 <theran> Some people in my lab are using it as part of one of their projects.  I thought I'd take a look (at the moment it doesn't seem to want to cooexist with wilbur)
19:25:28 <AaronSw> LFC is in Lake Forest... :-) It's biggest benefit is that it's a 30 min. train ride.
19:33:35 <theran> theran has quit
19:41:59 <ambient> ambient has quit
19:42:23 <ambient> ambient has joined #rdfig
19:55:06 <logger> logger has joined #rdfig
19:55:06 <niven.openprojects.net> topic is: RDF and Semantic Web Chat (home: http://www.w3.org/RDF/Interest/#irc blog: http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/ )
19:55:06 <niven.openprojects.net> Users on #rdfig: logger ambient @dajobe look barstow danbri cris|bed karld lasDesk OpenKern tdxdave AaronSw em grove_ deltab dc_rdfig 
19:55:07 <ChanServ> This channel is logged and blogged: http://logicerror.com/rdfIRCWelcome
20:07:38 <look> look has quit
20:07:55 <OpenKern> OpenKern has quit
20:26:35 <AaronSw> http://zooko.com/EGTP.html
20:26:36 <dc_rdfig> E: http://zooko.com/EGTP.html from AaronSw
20:26:45 <AaronSw> E:|EGTP: Evil Geniuses Transport Protocol
20:26:45 <dc_rdfig> titled item E
20:27:01 <AaronSw> E:"""At the lowest level, EGTP messages are all s-expressions, as defined in Internet Draft draft-rivest-sexp-00.txt. This is a human-readable, 8-bit-clean, structured format which is simple and efficient to produce and to parse. It is therefore nearly as efficient in time and space as customized binary encodings or ASN.1, while being as flexible, and nearly as human-readable, as XML."""
20:27:02 <dc_rdfig> commented item E
20:28:07 <AaronSw> E:This is the protocol for [MojoNation|http://www.mojonation.net]
20:28:07 <dc_rdfig> commented item E
20:28:32 <AaronSw> E:Mojo Nation is a P2P file service, but these folks also study [Attack Resistant Meta Data|http://zooko.com/p2pcon1slides/1.html]
20:28:32 <dc_rdfig> commented item E
20:36:28 <oierw|out> oierw|out has joined #rdfig
20:39:00 <oierw|out> oierw|out is now known as oierw
20:45:28 <tav> tav has joined #rdfig
20:53:19 <tdxdave> tdxdave has quit
21:04:00 <tav> tav has quit
21:04:08 <oierw> oierw has quit
21:21:15 <lasDesk> lasDesk has quit
21:30:36 <danbri> danbri has quit
21:45:00 <bijan> bijan has joined #rdfig
22:08:48 <barstow> barstow has quit
22:19:39 <sbp> sbp has joined #rdfig
22:36:47 <sbp> sbp has quit
22:47:24 <dajobe> dajobe has quit
22:54:13 <ambient> ambient has quit
23:06:47 <danja> danja has joined #rdfig
23:11:08 <danja> hi/bye
23:11:10 <danja> danja has quit
23:23:14 <sbp> sbp has joined #rdfig
23:32:37 <sbp> BLURB:NQuads
23:32:38 <dc_rdfig> F: NQuads from sbp
23:33:07 <sbp> F:To do inferences etc. with NQuads, you have to hopelessly practically every statement that you make, so...
23:33:08 <dc_rdfig> commented item F
23:33:42 <sbp> F:If you simply add a fourth term to NTriples (as a context), it becomes a lot easier. You don't have to reify nearly as much
23:33:42 <dc_rdfig> commented item F
23:33:52 <sbp> F:e.g.:-
23:33:52 <dc_rdfig> commented item F
23:34:52 <AaronSw> have to hopelessly practically?
23:35:04 <bijan> Is the "fourth" term a language level construct? Or just sugar for triples?
23:35:08 <sbp> F: :x :y :z :m . :z :y :x :n . :m log:implies :n :a . :a log:forAll :x ... . :a log:forAll :y ... .
23:35:09 <dc_rdfig> commented item F
23:35:31 <bijan> Er..reified triples.
23:35:34 <sbp> F:s/hopelessly practically/hopelessly reify practically
23:35:34 <dc_rdfig> commented item F
23:35:55 <sbp> F:the fourth term it's just a context
23:35:55 <dc_rdfig> commented item F
23:36:05 <libby> libby has joined #rdfig
23:36:18 <sbp> not reified, because you can have more that one member
23:36:22 <bijan> The Loom papers that I chumped way back when has some interesting thoughts about, roughly, "how much reification" you can get away with.
23:36:31 <sbp> e.g. :x :y :z :m . :a :b :c :m .
23:36:51 <sbp> "how much reification": for parsers, it doesn't matter, for humans, very little I'm guessing...
23:36:54 <bijan> What I meant is that, e.g., in rdf_db you have a "fourth term", so rdf(sub, pred, obj, db0
23:37:09 <bijan> But this is for the application, not for the RDF itself.
23:37:29 <sbp> Uh huh
23:37:53 <bijan> But I take it you mean to add context inside the RDF. (I'm not arguing, mind, just trying to get clear)
23:38:42 <sbp> Yes, acutally put it in the RDF. It doesn't have to be in every file, just files that you are using for "rules"
23:38:43 <sbp> F:These things aren't strictly being reified, because you can have more that one member, e.g. :x :y :z :m . :a :b :c :m .
23:38:44 <dc_rdfig> commented item F
23:39:26 <bijan> Note there's many possible confusions, yes?
23:39:36 <sbp> It's interchangable with NTriples... I should have made that clear. You just have to reify it all out, which is a mess
23:39:43 <sbp> Many possible confusions?
23:39:47 <bijan> E.g., right now, it seems reasonable to treat the *document* as the context of all it's contained statments.
23:39:59 <sbp> Yeah... I was wondering about that
23:40:10 <sbp> but we could come up with a URI that denotes the parent document
23:40:25 <sbp> note that in the BLURB, I left a "..." where the root context should be
23:40:31 <bijan> Or by default.
23:40:37 <AaronSw> It seems more reasonable to give statments IDs than contexts... to me at least
23:40:38 <sbp> in the tool that I wrote to grok this, I just created a URI and used that
23:40:49 <bijan> I.e., NTriples are implict NQuads with the document context.
23:40:59 <AaronSw> With IDs you can implement contexts, but not the other way around.
23:41:03 <sbp> IDs: doesn't that mean that each triple can only have one ID?
23:41:16 <bijan> But the NQuads are made *in* their document's context.
23:41:25 <sbp> Yes, I'd say that's fair
23:41:32 <AaronSw> IDs: umm, no... perhaps ID is a bad name for it
23:42:09 <bijan> so, one has to be careful, i.e., if context is a explicit language feature then it's probably a *bad* idea to equate context with document.
23:42:38 <sbp> if you used IDs, you'd still have to reify quite a bit, because a context is a collection of triples. an ID just takes one level of reification out, not the two
23:43:08 <sbp> well, people have a choice to say what context a statement is in
23:43:33 <sbp> that's the beauty of it: you have to explicitly state the context for every statement you make. There's no guessing on the side of the parser
23:43:41 <sbp> In normal RDF, you have to guess
23:43:54 <sbp> although it's not difficult...
23:44:13 <bijan> Hmm. I'd say in normal RDF you have to *decide*.
23:44:17 <bijan> Which is a little different.
23:44:18 <sbp> the top level of the doucment is usually the context. But that doesn't have a URI. NQuads forces you to give all statements a URI
23:44:37 <bijan> (Assuming that there's no explicit contextualization.)
23:44:41 <sbp> Well, in NQuads you have to decide too :-)
23:44:41 <AaronSw> :m a :Context; :contains (:x, :y, :z, :e) .
23:44:49 <sbp> node lists? Ugh
23:44:58 <bijan> No, I mean the *application* has to decide.
23:45:09 <bijan> in NQuads the "author" has to decide, explicitly.
23:45:18 <AaronSw> well, maybe a better way is to say: :m is :context of :x, :t, :z, :e .
23:45:27 <bijan> It doesn't actually eliminate the burden, it just shifts it.
23:45:35 <sbp> yes, because a node list generates tons of anonymous nodes
23:45:58 <sbp> shifts the burden: but it makes you state in the document itself what the root context is... which is surely only a good thing
23:46:11 <bijan> Well...maybe.
23:46:24 <bijan> Sometimes you *want* the context to be ambiguous.
23:46:36 <bijan> E.g., if you are going to compose larger docs out of pieces.
23:49:03 <sbp> sbp has quit
23:49:26 <zooko> zooko has joined #rdfig
23:49:36 <nephrael> nephrael has joined #rdfig
23:50:24 <libby> guys, anyone there know about cwm?
23:50:34 <libby> having a bit of trouble
23:50:37 <bijan> Aaron does!
23:50:40 <AaronSw> :-)
23:50:49 <AaronSw> What's up?
23:50:49 <libby> trying to write a sign for new room at work
23:50:54 <libby> yey aaron
23:50:59 <bijan> Keep that python stuff away from me! :)
23:51:04 <libby> heh
23:51:16 <AaronSw> Speaking of Python stuff... when'll the Chimp be ready, bijan?
23:51:27 <AaronSw> what kind of sign, Libby? An N3 sign?
23:51:31 <bijan> Well, we're waiting on a couple of things.
23:51:35 <libby> well, I just keep getting notation3.BadSyntax: Line 126: Bad syntax (Prefix  not bound) at ^ in: "...itten in C. Of te order of 30k lines
23:51:36 <bijan> SourgeForge approval.
23:51:48 <bijan> Me finishing all the articles I've backlogged :(
23:51:57 <libby> yeah, an n3 sign saying who is in the new semweb romm at ilrt
23:52:17 <AaronSw> :-)
23:52:41 <AaronSw> Hmm, where is the ^ pointing to?
23:52:46 <libby> I get this error whatever args I use except help
23:53:06 <AaronSw> Sounds like the N3 input is malformed... is it online somewhere?
23:53:08 <libby> er, nothing in that case, but tried it with some tests
23:53:21 <libby> is there a standard test?
23:53:29 <libby> probably shoulda looked around
23:53:47 <AaronSw> python cwm.py test/t1.n3
23:53:52 <AaronSw> is pretty standard
23:53:52 <libby> can be online - probably all wrong though....that's why I wanted to try cwm
23:54:09 <libby> ok, I'll try that and get back to you 
23:54:09 <libby> thanks
23:54:18 <bijan> In any case aaron...next week I hope :)
23:54:22 <AaronSw> libby, if you put it online I can help you out with it
23:54:29 <AaronSw> great, bijan!
23:54:34 <libby> cool bijan, can't wait for chimp
23:55:02 <AaronSw> Woohoo: http://sourceforge.net/projects/semantichimp
23:56:59 <bijan> There you go! :)
23:57:08 <bijan> I have a few bugs to squash and a few features to add.
23:57:53 <libby> aaron - http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/~libby/cwm/room.n3
23:58:03 <libby>  - it really is all wrong probably
23:58:26 <libby> being lazy
23:58:28 <AaronSw> libby, it's almost right... just need to put <> brackets around the emails... i.e.
23:58:34 <AaronSw> <mailto:foo@bar.com>
23:58:36 <libby> ah
23:59:12 <AaronSw> and around the ILRT uri
23:59:22 <libby> of course, duh