Semantic Web Interest Group IRC Chat Logs for 2001-09-08

01:08:02 Topic now Semantic Web Chat: New RDF Working Draft out, another coming soon | http://www.w3.org/RDF/Interest/#irc

01:08:02 Users on #rdfig: logger sbp tim dmiles @dajobe AaronSw eikeon ArtB bijan jang dc_rdfig matt|umcp DanC sandro [filsa] deltab em

01:08:02 <ChanServ> This channel is logged and blogged: http://logicerror.com/rdfIRCWelcome

04:21:29 * eikeon waves

04:21:38 * jtauber waves back

04:28:59 * eikeon waves again

07:14:47 <dmiles> The SUO app. when adding a new name constant for the inference engine requires the user to pick a point on the ontology to add their new entity.. what is the easiest/most portable graph maker?

07:15:23 <dmiles> i am going to have them click a new point on the graph to add their class or predicate

07:16:04 <dmiles> (i just need a link to send to my PM so he can see what it looks like)

09:04:26 <dmiles>http://ectoplasm.teknowledge.com/inference/

09:04:26 <dc_rdfig> A: http://ectoplasm.teknowledge.com/inference/ from dmiles

09:04:57 <dmiles> A: SUO Inference Engine

09:04:58 <dc_rdfig> commented item A

09:05:33 <dmiles> A: Finially getting there - but still bugs.. please choose Web User Profile

09:05:33 <dc_rdfig> commented item A

09:06:30 <dmiles> A: language documentation at http://suo.ieee.org

09:06:30 <dc_rdfig> commented item A

09:06:49 <dmiles> A: mail bugs to dmiles@teknowledge.com

09:06:49 <dc_rdfig> commented item A

09:14:12 <dmiles> A: if the page is mangled please click refresh

09:14:12 <dc_rdfig> commented item A

09:21:25 <dmiles> A: Click ask/tell, then on the next page click the ask button (instance ?X Relation)

09:21:25 <dc_rdfig> commented item A

09:22:45 <dmiles> A: Note the SUO ontology (Merge) shown was created during voting and still needs to be approved once again

09:22:45 <dc_rdfig> commented item A

10:48:20 <danbri> danbri has changed the topic to: SemanticWebHack - http://www.w3.org/RDF/Interest/#irc

10:50:58 <danbri>http://www.w3.org/2001/09/soap-ntriples/

10:50:59 <dc_rdfig> B: http://www.w3.org/2001/09/soap-ntriples/ from danbri

10:51:21 <danbri> B:|SOAP Ntriple test cases (work in progress)

10:51:22 <dc_rdfig> titled item B

10:52:16 <danbri> B:I took Aaron's ntriple/soap examples and started to explore how they'd look as a set of tests for SOAP interop, visualisation etc.

10:52:16 <dc_rdfig> commented item B

10:54:25 <danbri> B:I edited the .nt files a bit, haven't touched the .n3; there were a few odd things in the .n3 I didn't understand; anyway, I like the way this is headed

10:54:25 <dc_rdfig> commented item B

10:55:38 <dmiles> good morning

10:59:03 <danbri> B:I also collected a few related links; the Apache Axis [tests|http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/xml-axis/java/test/encoding/] perhaps being of particular interest; they're couched in terms of Java objects instead of NTriple'd graphs.

10:59:03 <dc_rdfig> commented item B

10:59:08 <danbri> hi there!

10:59:39 <dmiles> cheery morning it is!

11:00:38 <dmiles> i am wide awake and creating and ontology graph for people to put in new suo terms

11:01:49 <dmiles> trying not to make it a transition of pages.. i still dont know what to do if they change their mind and want their constant located elsewhere on the graph. have to make a retract

11:03:28 <danbri> Is there some social/policy machinery that decentralises the creation of new SUO terms? I remember DMoz.org had a had time with sub-groups creating new ways of carving up the world without global coordination; wonder how SUO deals with this.

11:04:22 <dmiles> well the upper ontolgy is a big voting todo.. but a middle ontogy never really becomes suo.,. and that is what users will be creting

11:04:52 <danbri> ah, ok, that makes sense (except the design-by-voting bit...)

11:04:57 <dmiles> so coordiation will be a utiltity that merges the middle ontogies still

11:05:32 <dmiles> which means people will end up recreating the same constants

11:05:42 <danbri> Is anyone working on mappings into Wordnet's (perhaps quirky) class hierarchy?

11:05:46 <danbri> s/class/noun term/

11:05:56 <dmiles> Ian Niles has one

11:05:57 <danbri> recreating: that's probably inevitable

11:06:14 <danbri> Do you have a reference? I'm reworking the xmlns.com wordnet/rdf thing this weekend

11:06:21 <dmiles> 2 weeks ago he made a SUO to wordnet mapping

11:06:35 <danbri> for that matter, is there a SUO RDF representation? (DAML I guess?)

11:06:37 <dmiles> sure.. i'll load it into a SKB browser

11:06:44 <danbri> cool

11:07:44 <dmiles> well there is supposed to be one http://reliant.teknowledge.com/DAML/

11:08:45 <dmiles> someone said.. that the daml version was mostly just rdf

11:08:59 <danbri> nowt wrong with that!

11:09:39 <dmiles> next week we'll have a SKB to daml/rdf exporter

11:10:19 <dmiles>http://ontology.teknowledge.com:8080/rsigma/SKB.jsp?req=SC&skb=Merge-WordNet&id=1234

11:10:19 <dc_rdfig> C: http://ontology.teknowledge.com:8080/rsigma/SKB.jsp?req=SC&skb=Merge-WordNet&id=1234 from dmiles

11:10:25 <dmiles> oops ;>

11:10:42 <dmiles> C: SUO Merged with Wordnet

11:10:42 <dc_rdfig> commented item C

11:10:54 <danbri> I'm looking around the URL you chump'd earlier; wondering how well that stuff flattens down to simple RDF...

11:11:25 <danbri> C:See also [SUO in DAML work|http://reliant.teknowledge.com/DAML/]

11:11:25 <dc_rdfig> commented item C

11:11:41 <dmiles> very easily .. it just a java array

11:12:03 <dmiles> SKB formate is just a huge array that is serialized

11:12:19 <danbri> C:|SUO and WordNet

11:12:20 <dc_rdfig> titled item C

11:12:33 <rreck> wow

11:12:46 <danbri> I was thinking more of the kind of infomration in SUO (KIf?)

11:13:14 <dmiles> yes it starts out as KIF

11:13:46 <dmiles>http://ectoplasm.teknowledge.com/inference/kbs/

11:13:46 <dc_rdfig> D: http://ectoplasm.teknowledge.com/inference/kbs/ from dmiles

11:13:50 <danbri> Why does the Wordnet URL above go to the entry for 'Region'?

11:13:50 <dmiles> oh man

11:14:03 <dmiles> i wasnt trying to chump oit

11:14:05 <danbri> you have to describe it now ;-)

11:14:09 <dmiles> that eighetrhr

11:14:14 <danbri> with a d:| title an all...

11:14:32 <dmiles> well that is kinda a temp dirrectory

11:14:48 <dmiles> but it is up perminatent

11:15:05 <dmiles> but is the uplouad space for authors

11:15:46 <danbri> ...full of nutty military stuff: (documentation AviationReconUnit-MilitarySpecialty "Instances of ModernMilitaryUnit-Deployable that rely on the use of helicopters for reconnaissance operations to which they are dedicated.")

11:16:06 * danbri hopes this ontology only gets use by online gaming enthusiasts...

11:16:08 <dmiles> yeah.. i never know what gets upped

11:16:33 <dmiles> but in my oppinion and use.. its just to make a really cool mud/moo

11:16:53 <dmiles> a nivce realtime mud with an inference engine that spans the globe

11:16:56 <danbri> you've used it for a moo?

11:17:30 <dmiles> i have been using it with http://worlds.dev.aliensystems.com

11:17:30 <rreck> i work on a mud mystic.magik.net

11:17:51 <dmiles> but i need a player base to provide realtime interaction

11:17:54 <danbri> I made some abortive efforts towards an RDF MOO system, nothing fancy to show yet

11:18:30 <dmiles> i kinda think a moo is enevitable

11:19:00 <danbri> Aha! PrologVirtualWorlds was _you_ :)

11:19:14 <dmiles> yes

11:19:15 * danbri stumbled across it a while back, forget how/where.

11:19:48 <dmiles> i havent done anyhting wiuth it for over a year.. been too busy with other thiungs

11:20:09 <danbri> were you at MS Research?

11:20:14 <dmiles> but i want to find a good userbased moo and not go for the graphical qualities

11:20:45 <dmiles> I worked there as a web designer .. not part of the MSVW team

11:21:09 <danbri> I started trying to recode the bare bones of the LambdaMOO system over the top of a Perl RDF API, rough notes at http://ilrt.org/discovery/2001/03/rdf-moo/

11:21:09 <dmiles> they where just so happy someone used their stuff for anothing

11:21:39 <danbri> ...thinking was that many web folk understand perl/javascript style of coding, and the MOO informaion model was basically same as RDF's.

11:22:16 <dmiles> Excelent.. lookjoing at the URL

11:22:17 <danbri> I'd not heard of MSVW before. My hunch is that all the energy in this area is in the Quake/etc space now...

11:23:08 <dmiles> MSVW is their model for creating online RPGs.. all of the objects are com and very simple to write code for in any language

11:23:18 <dmiles> Asheron Call was based in it

11:23:29 <danbri> From time to time, http://www.o-r-g.org/~azaroth/ stops by here. He wrote a MOO<->IRC bridge, we were geeking on RDF meets MOO stuff after meeting at some dull dig library meeting

11:24:06 <dmiles> yes i would much rather connect to a moo via irc message windoiw

11:24:29 <danbri> azaroth wrote some MOO code that dumped the MOO graph into RDF-happy triples; wonder where that's gone...

11:25:35 <dmiles> was just looking over http://ilrt.org/discovery/2001/03/rdf-moo/ .. we need to really do something with this!

11:26:21 <dmiles> i really need to be thinking real time

11:26:48 <dmiles> the suo infernece engine kerenl only needs about 1/2 my time

11:27:04 <rreck> if you want access on semi-active mud go to mystic

11:27:26 * danbri is there, typing irc commands by accident half the time

11:27:27 <rreck> i can get you coding access on a test port

11:27:45 <dmiles> that would work.. what i am interested in is a message about pretty much what everybody is doing as an event model

11:28:11 <danbri> I made a couple of samples of MOO-ish data in RDF; see moo.rdf and verbmoo.rdf in http://cvs.ilrt.org/cvsweb/rudolf-perl/samples/

11:28:14 <dmiles> to where each event is classified into a triple

11:28:28 <danbri> ...the latter mixes scripts (in Perl, sorry guys) into an RDF graph

11:28:42 <rreck>http://mystic.uprising.net/~ron/

11:28:42 <dc_rdfig> E: http://mystic.uprising.net/~ron/ from rreck

11:29:10 <dmiles> :)

11:30:01 <dmiles> D: Mistaken Add.. temp dirrecory of Inference engine uplod dirrectory

11:30:01 <dc_rdfig> commented item D

11:30:19 <dmiles> man i have bad spelling

11:31:10 <dmiles> D: Data is stored here before it gets parsed

11:31:10 <dc_rdfig> commented item D

11:31:49 <dmiles> rreck: excelent

11:32:15 <rreck> that's all perl

11:32:24 <dmiles> it really looks like it would be good to use as a model of what people do and build

11:33:19 <danbri> yes; I'm interested in the APIs MOO/MUD engines use to talk to their database

11:33:19 <dmiles> mainly a planing system and the making of caseroles is target

11:33:24 <danbri> Is it all in memory, on disk...

11:34:54 <dmiles> (i can read perl danbri, i just dont normally start applications in it)

11:35:18 <danbri>http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2001-09-08.html#T11-15-46

11:35:19 <dc_rdfig> F: http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2001-09-08.html#T11-15-46 from danbri

11:35:33 <danbri> F:|SW-MOO IRC chat logs

11:35:33 <dc_rdfig> titled item F

11:37:05 <dmiles> hrrm so.. it seems the best way to do this is.. to have rreck moo give out a large RDF document of the starting state

11:37:40 <dmiles> or in some form.. can take into java to bootstrap the inference kernel

11:38:44 <dmiles> (err current state)

11:39:37 <dmiles> part of what the sigma system is about is i have a feeling no one will be ussing opnecyc to make moo bots

11:40:23 <dmiles> Sigma system is the teknowlege replacement for opencyc that uses a better collabrative ontology

11:42:44 <danbri> F:See also [PrologVirtualWorlds|http://worlds.dev.aliensystems.com] from dmiles; [Mystic MUD|mystic.magik.net] from rreck; [Azaroth|http://www.o-r-g.org/~azaroth/]'s [Syrinnia|http://syrinnia.o-r-g.org:8000/], and DanBri's [RDF MOO notes|http://ilrt.org/discovery/2001/03/rdf-moo/] and samples ( [places|http://cvs.ilrt.org/cvsweb/rudolf-perl/samples/moo.rdf] and [verbs|http://cvs.ilrt.org/cvsweb/rudolf-perl/samples/verbmoo.rdf]).

11:42:44 <dc_rdfig> commented item F

11:46:11 <danbri> F:See also Azaroth's [MOO to IRC gateway|http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2001-05-26.html] hacking, from #rdfig a while back.

11:46:11 <dc_rdfig> commented item F

11:49:06 <dmiles> so this irc moo client it will connect to another moo like rrecks?

11:49:29 <dmiles> (reading)

11:49:49 <danbri> I'm not sure; I think it is LambdaMOO code that makes a tcp/ip connection to an IRC server, and talks a bare subset of IRC-eze

11:54:08 <dmiles> that works out

11:57:28 <dmiles> oh earlier to get an SigmaKB (SUO Inference Engine Datafile) to export to RDF.. Chris Barbee of Teknowledge wrote one

11:58:30 <dmiles> its really just a matter of how many hours in a week we all have .. probly why we are all here saturday morning

11:59:35 <dmiles> so what i need i think i can find one is an eay way to convert an RDF document to KIF

12:00:42 <dmiles> is that simply a translieteration?.. i am pretty new to daml/rdf just in the last motn

12:00:46 <dmiles> err month

12:01:23 <danbri> Have a word with DanC, or see his recent msg to www-rdf-logic, I think he's the one best placed to advise on that. I don't know KIF well

12:01:47 <rreck> im new to it too, but i can tell im about to plummet into the maelstrom

12:02:02 * danbri dissapears into a MOO for a while

12:02:44 <dmiles> how are you doing that danbri?

12:26:39 <dmiles> i am looking for a link to soap on the rdf homepage http://www.w3.org/RDF/Interest/#irc

12:27:07 <dmiles> n/m found it

12:36:09 <dmiles> hrrm as much as i am finding i am not finding what i need to make a soap server

12:36:27 <dmiles> 404 at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-box-http-soap-00.txt

12:36:52 <danbri> Are you prepared to hack in Perl? The SOAP::Lite module is pretty nifty.

12:37:08 <danbri> For Java, things are in transition, at least the Apache stuff.

12:37:22 <dmiles> well it actually is in prolog

12:37:33 <dmiles> (the socket server)

12:37:44 <danbri> The Apache SOAP project started with a contrib, I tihnk from IBM. Then they made a v2.0; the 3rd is more of a rewrite, called Axis. Is looking good but not yet fully documented etc.

12:37:59 <danbri> I've had Axis work as a SOAP client, not investigated server yet. http://xml.apache.org/axis/

12:38:03 <dmiles> so i just ned to set my output file to wrok as soap

12:38:22 <danbri> Possibly; but also the machinery for having it passed arguments...

12:38:44 <dmiles> err you mean it passes serialied objects?

12:38:58 <dmiles> err i mean unserialied maybe

12:40:12 <dmiles> i am hoping to cut java right out of the picutre.. ecpt rewritting th sigma web client

12:40:20 <danbri> questiosn going into the server as well as answers coming out; soap has conventions for both

12:40:30 <danbri> Is your HTTP server in Prolog?

12:40:34 <dmiles> see the web client connects to an xml server that i wrote purely in prolog

12:40:52 <danbri> ok

12:41:02 <dmiles> actually even the html you see is passed from prolog .. shh

12:41:37 <dmiles> but they wanted it to talk purely xml.. i kinda mixed html in with the xml

12:41:52 <dmiles> but yes.. its pure prolog

12:42:26 <dmiles> the http server telnets into prolog server.. amkes requests.. does minumun formating and returns the page

12:43:51 <dmiles> look at for a sec http://ectoplasm.teknowledge.com/inference/engine/prolog_server.html

12:44:09 <dmiles> oh duh thats the incomlete tiny thing

12:44:27 <dmiles> but you get the picture

12:45:26 <dmiles> the inference engine dtd is quite a bit more complex and puts its stuff into the <result/>

12:47:17 <dmiles> i see i can use soap envelopes instead

12:49:53 <dmiles> ok then if the server is serving soap . what clients.. related to RDF do we have to choose fronm?

12:50:16 <dmiles> err thats a weird question

12:50:44 <dmiles> i am asking if i can serve up query resposes.. who would do the asking?

12:51:34 <dmiles> i'd like to make it's content usefull :>

13:07:27 <dmiles> hhrm do i wait for the bookstore to open in 6 hours or download a redhat cd.. in that abmount of time

13:08:55 <dmiles> my prolog server will only do one thing at once on windows

13:31:47 <danbri> see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2001Sep/ recently, eg http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2001Sep/0014.html for some example SOAP client code ; similar in python nearby

13:33:15 <danbri> oops i mean http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2001Sep/0010.html

13:37:27 <dmiles> ah, i see

13:39:27 <dmiles> the soap server is in perl right (the one you have presently?)

13:47:45 <dmiles> i think tho i see how to servre up content for that client

13:51:20 <dmiles> ok now i make an eggdrop

13:59:54 * danbri catches up; yes, the soap server is presently in Perl

14:00:48 <danbri> ...I wouldn't try coding the server end from scratch, you'd need to unpack the XML-wrapped queries etc. Better to find some SOAP java tool. If not Axis, then the older SOAP Apache project

14:00:54 <danbri> http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/n-triples2kif.pl

14:00:55 <dc_rdfig> G: http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/n-triples2kif.pl from danbri

14:01:09 <danbri> G:|DanC's Perl NTriples parser

14:01:09 <dc_rdfig> titled item G

14:01:28 <danbri> G:Which spits out kif; see also [earlier version|http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/n3-simple.pl]

14:01:28 <dc_rdfig> commented item G

14:01:46 <dmiles> ohh cool

14:06:09 <dmiles> i see you the soap query is the issue.. not the response

14:06:21 <dmiles> s/you/yeah

14:07:39 <dmiles> i the xml parsing library for prolog is still really small

14:07:57 <danbri> going via the java route might be easier

14:08:18 <danbri> use http://xml.apache.org/soap/ or http://xml.apache.org/axis/ (more recent; less documented...)

14:10:10 <dmiles> well then java has to still call prolog xml server to get a response.. but maybe i'll take in the request in a java server socket.. parse the invoke prolog server socket and pipe the response back to the client

14:10:52 <dmiles> virtually that is what is happening on ectoplasm but for http requests

14:11:46 <dmiles> i wrote a native server for http in prolog.. it could handle up to 5000 requests at once.. but the problem is no one knows how to write PSP (Prolog Server Pages :)

14:12:47 <danbri> see http://xml.apache.org/soap/docs/guide/rpc.html for quick 'what you need to do', after getting the stuff installed. If you've already got your prolog wrapped in Java, I'd go for writing a Java SOAP service interface around that. I don't think you'll find (or enjoy writing) a Prolog SOAP toolkit

14:12:53 <danbri> psp: lol :)

14:13:00 <danbri> all in good time...

14:32:35 <dmiles> in 10 minutes that server on ectoplams is launching an irc bot

14:32:56 <dmiles> i wrote a little tcl script that messages what we say to the server

14:35:00 <dmiles>http://ectoplasm.teknowledge.com/inference/engine/kifbot/scripts/prolog.tcl

14:35:01 <dc_rdfig> H: http://ectoplasm.teknowledge.com/inference/engine/kifbot/scripts/prolog.tcl from dmiles

14:35:10 <dmiles> doh!

14:51:06 <danbri> 10 mins? which 10 mins? ;-)

14:51:12 <dmiles> he is here

14:51:31 <danbri> who/which is he?

14:51:31 <dmiles> but i am trying to log into him

14:51:49 <dmiles> /whois KRLog

14:52:30 <dmiles> but.. i dont think i have the language module right

14:52:44 <dmiles> i cant get him to listen to my ownership request

14:53:07 <dmiles> basicly the prolog server telnets into him and uses him like a glove on irc

14:55:07 Topic now SemanticWebHack - http://www.w3.org/RDF/Interest/#irc

14:55:07 Users on #rdfig: logger dc_rdfig tav` dmiles @danbri AaronSw eikeon em tim @dajobe ArtB jang matt|umcp DanC sandro [filsa] deltab

14:55:07 <ChanServ> This channel is logged and blogged: http://logicerror.com/rdfIRCWelcome

14:55:31 <dmiles> its just that it is really pretty and readable to look at

14:56:37 <dmiles> and was wrtten before multithreading was part of the kernel

14:56:54 <dmiles> so it even has it's own event que and everything

14:57:23 <danbri> swiBot, looks like a lot of code...

14:58:17 <danbri> Did you see the SWI-prolog plugin for Mozilla that Geoff Chapel did? http://www.mozilla.org/rdf/doc/inference.html

14:58:25 <dmiles> it used to do alot of tricks.. like messaging to people anfd playing that it was the other one.. it used wordnet to transliterate and paraphrase their converstaion

14:59:05 <dmiles> as well as run sample apps like eliza.. oh and even plays tic-tac-toe

14:59:56 <dmiles> i was going to nest a moo into it .. but then sorta abandoned it .. becasue i had to amke a living

15:00:51 <danbri> bummer

15:01:11 <dmiles> well i am back and ready to pursue those types of dreams

15:01:27 <dmiles> hrrm he using XSB

15:01:51 <dmiles> ah and SWI a bit

15:02:14 <dmiles> XSB is so darn buggy.. but at least it automatcially produces transitive closure

15:04:11 <dmiles> ahha yes iu have seen this

15:04:31 <dmiles> i just never could find the source

15:06:58 <dmiles> ok i am going to read it in a few.. any prolog source file can be messaged as a url to this KRBot and he reads it in and runs it

15:07:33 <dmiles> i bet he can even run the .P files that are on that site

15:07:46 <dmiles> (or .pl , .swi)

15:14:06 <dmiles> hrrm this eggdrop thing is difficult

15:14:11 <danbri> the moz stuff is done in swi, I thought. src is c/o http://209.198.94.130/mzpl/

15:14:20 <danbri> is eggdrop perl?

15:14:28 <dmiles> its tcl

15:14:33 <danbri> oh, right

15:14:41 <dmiles> well its C .. with tcl scripting

15:15:05 <dmiles> [08:01] LANG: No lang files found for section notes.

15:15:14 <dmiles> its just dependancies

15:19:30 <dmiles> ok fixed that .. still not working

15:20:03 <dmiles> excelent about

15:20:04 <dmiles>http://209.198.94.130/mzpl/

15:20:04 <dc_rdfig> I: http://209.198.94.130/mzpl/ from dmiles

15:20:13 <dmiles> oh my man

15:20:23 <dmiles> i cut pasited it

15:20:32 <dmiles> it was supposed to be on the same line

15:20:45 <dmiles> "excelent about http://209.198.94.130/mzpl/"

15:24:31 <danbri> I:|Mozilla 'Enabling Inference', SWI-Prolog based browser component

15:24:32 <dc_rdfig> titled item I

15:24:46 <danbri> I:Chumped (again :) by accident, but maybe worth revisiting.

15:24:46 <dc_rdfig> commented item I

15:25:11 <danbri> I:All we need now is a good usage scenario -- why would anyone want a Prolog / RDF query system embedded in their Web browser...?

15:25:11 <dc_rdfig> commented item I

15:25:57 <dmiles> it the smallest and fastest representation of any problem

15:26:43 <dmiles> err the use of prolog.. but why .. yes

15:33:31 <dmiles> hello krlog

15:38:57 <dmiles> test

15:39:18 <dmiles> 1 2 3

15:39:25 <dmiles> (isa ?X ?Y)

15:44:52 <KRlog> ping

15:44:56 <dmiles> pong

16:15:13 <DanC> danbri? the arrays seem to disappear somewhere between .xml and .nt

16:22:15 <dmiles> test 1.

16:22:21 <dmiles> .

16:22:48 <KRlog> <swiProlog> <BadInput/>

16:28:42 <dmiles> test

16:29:13 <dmiles> halt

18:22:12 <dmiles> Seth. You are in seattle?

18:22:35 <dmiles> danbri: almost have the bot working ;>

18:24:05 <dmiles> in prder for him to handle mutlthreads i have to run the xml server on linux.. and ectoplasm is a little too slow.. so i am installing on a 1.4mhz with a gig of ram (266mhz bus)

18:24:39 <dmiles> each thread requires about 20 megs

18:25:51 <SethR> well actually in Renton

18:26:30 <SethR> where in seattle are you?

18:27:17 <dmiles> Capitol hill

18:27:36 <dmiles> maybe we should do coffee soon

18:28:36 <dmiles> did you meet Ian and Adam at ijcai seattle?

18:29:05 <dmiles> i guess they had a SUO both

18:29:16 <SethR> definitely

18:29:32 <SethR> no i didnt get to go

18:29:58 <dmiles> heh, i was cinderalla that didn't go to the ball (stuck in Palo alto)

18:30:43 <SethR> your mo stuff is great .... vertual reality meets the semantic web, huh?

18:31:35 <SethR> mo/moo

18:31:35 <dmiles> well i really need a good brokering system and MS COM Moo looked good and still does.. but i dont want to support something that people wont use

18:32:20 <SethR> so is your virtual space really controlled by kif axioms and inferences ?

18:32:21 <dmiles> if a good LambdaMOO server predestined for peop;le to write tools for i would be content

18:32:29 <dmiles> yes

18:32:50 <SethR> can i just download this and run it on my pc ?

18:33:12 <dmiles> the problem is its such a ouse of cards i only get the thing to work on my machjine on certain days of the week

18:33:51 <SethR> isee .. but soon, huh?

18:33:57 <dmiles> it requires weird dlls.. and i chenged the model of the origal MSVW .. to make it more expressive in it's event model

18:34:20 <dmiles> since they never designed it to express *everything* that happens

18:34:42 <dmiles> so there are alot of events that have odd datatypes i am still working out

18:34:46 <SethR> so do you use the 3d or the 4d model ?

18:35:09 <dmiles> well hehe.. i am still in 3D.. but the goal is to discover the secrets of 4d transformation

18:36:00 <dmiles> meaing i have time elements that march thru the => rules

18:36:13 <dmiles> well (not really implies)

18:36:34 <dmiles> cause/2

18:36:57 <dmiles> i am trying to stay close to Rodger Schanks script/lan/goals models

18:37:50 <SethR> for the conceptual mind of the characters, you could use a sem web wiki

18:37:54 <dmiles> meaning that the intent is to recognise frames

18:38:43 <dmiles> yes.. i want a shared space ammong the agents that is persisited in a way it can be browsed and altered

18:39:26 <dmiles> even the "world" is a is a charicater actor (playing god)

18:39:40 <SethR> each character (me thinks) should have its own wiki .. then maybe a shared one, but that could just be the semantic cloud

18:40:07 <SethR> so god moves space-time

18:41:43 <dmiles> yes.. but i need to have more spawning of his tasks.. like small demi gods.. each worshiping their own middle ontology

18:43:32 <SethR> yeah each god could run on different modules of the collective suo ontology

18:45:03 <SethR> each with his own wiki .. so if you talk to the gods wiki, your building its vocabulary and personality

18:53:45 <dmiles> ah i am away and back.. i am making redhat bootdisks

18:54:29 <dmiles> thats the idea.. i think as long as the moo arcitecture facilitaes talking to external resources that works out

18:54:58 <dmiles> you could say each has its own microtheory

18:55:39 <dmiles> i am hoping someone creates an ist (is true in) wrapper fro suo

18:56:03 <SethR> i see each ontology as being a cut of the whole tree of micortheories (modules), rather than bening just one module

18:57:15 <SethR> well like my latest silly question to suo, why not just use cyc micortheory ?

18:58:03 <dmiles> i saw it.. we may as well

18:58:04 <SethR> that is use cyc microtheory axioms

18:58:32 <dmiles> well genlMt, BroadMitcoryThery, ist is all thats really needed

18:59:02 <dmiles> broad microtheroy means it can be included inline to the child theory

18:59:50 <dmiles> (ist ?theory ?Formula) lets you call into a specific theory

19:00:16 <dmiles> (gemlMt ?Theory ?ParentTheory)

19:00:52 <dmiles> but cyc additionally creates Contexts as well

19:01:44 <SethR> ohisee so gemlMt is like my property 'dependant' in the diagram at http://robustai.net/mentography/modulesConforming.gif

19:02:36 <dmiles> yes

19:02:51 <dmiles> Time would be "BroadMicrotheory"

19:02:51 <SethR> and 'ist' is like my 'collects' in the diagram at http://robustai.net/mentography/contexts.gif

19:03:18 <dmiles> percisily i think

19:04:06 <SethR> only difference is that to me 'collects' does not imply truth .. just implies its in the same module (or i call it ContextCave)

19:04:45 <dmiles> well no theiory is ever truely trusteed

19:04:51 <SethR> so McCarthy contexts are truth functional and logical, but ContextCaves are a generalization that is alogical

19:05:25 <dmiles> well cyc has a Microtheroy typre that describes hypothethical or mythological

19:05:55 <dmiles> that would probly added as an attribute/2 of a context

19:06:41 <SethR> well i seeItAs an attribute of a ContextCave is that it is truth functional

19:07:26 <SethR> so i suppose my ContextCave is more just like the cyc collections

19:07:38 <dmiles> currently internally i am uses (believes ?Formual ?Agent) .. and merge axioms are believed by the 'SystemName'

19:08:21 <SethR> makes good sense

19:08:24 <dmiles> McCarthy said cyc lacked the infrastrucure to introspect

19:08:51 <dmiles> or create actuall agent beleif

19:09:06 <dmiles> i thought tho that was a KE not using it to full

19:09:24 <dmiles> i dont know.. i personally dont use cyc

19:09:41 <SethR> maybe cause everything has to be logical ... ie infered by a set of axioms ... but any ~program~ can introspect a collection of labeled arcs

19:19:30 <SethR> i wrote a stystem once that took a snapshot of the running stacks which were just labeled directed graphs refering to labeled directed graphs .. then could process that snapshot ... i called that introspection

19:20:28 <SethR> but that was when i was young ... now dont have enough short term memory left ... stack overflowing all over the place :(

19:24:27 <dmiles> yes that is introspection.. i think i am also refering to how we can alter an angents infernce mechinism.. each theory is like a beleife engine

19:25:35 <dmiles> so you should be able to say if he belives this and in she belives that.. then i must belief this something else or something that they believe

19:27:05 <dmiles> wow, one gig of ram makes a nice disk cache

19:27:45 <dmiles> i am giving up on ectoplam for a while.. that can be the stable SUOrelease

19:28:20 <dmiles> and i have a machine here at home to run it on including an irc bot that lets you do things normally having to do from the browser

19:28:59 <dmiles> and i figure for security reasons i shouldnt run the irc bot from tek

19:29:18 <SethR> so now 'nThdomani' is now just 'domain' in SUMO ?

19:29:23 <dmiles> yes

19:29:43 <dmiles> all the preopositions ave been blanketly removed

19:30:01 <SethR> when do we get to see the bot running here ?

19:30:16 <dmiles> i am not sure i like it on part(-of) looks like about 2 hrs :>

19:31:06 <dmiles> the infernce engine is running at http://ectoplasm.teknowledge.com:8080/inference now

19:31:23 <dmiles> but adam has acouple more things he wnats me to change before he announces it

19:31:30 <SethR> i think 'domain' is very anti intuitive ... isnt it more just like 'slot' ?

19:32:22 <dmiles> it means that if the complete extent of the predicate was known in a model that negation would be all missing instances of that class

19:32:58 <dmiles> also speeds up anonlogy accrossed contexts

19:33:26 <dmiles> as well as holds ?REl candidates

19:33:58 <dmiles> so 2nd order axioms can be divided and conquered

19:34:18 <dmiles> but what it means to a knowedge engineer :> i dont think in those terms

19:35:00 <SethR> i thought nthDomain just specified what each slot of predicates were

19:35:20 <dmiles> also it helps the KE when asserting to not have to declare his constants in terms of the ontology

19:36:06 <dmiles> yes each of the arguments' classes

19:36:50 <SethR> ohIsee .. so the class an argument can take is considered its domain

19:36:53 <dmiles> for a given predicate.. and each subrealtion inherits the nthDomians of its parent

19:37:13 <dmiles> yes.. cyc's argNIsa

19:38:35 <dmiles> that is why the upper predicates are so genral

19:39:15 <SethR> but then we have domain and range from daml .. and domain there is almost the opposite ... specifies the object rather than the subject of a arc ... gonna be hard to remember the switcheroo

19:39:37 <dmiles> and virtually useless in a real context.. if you think a predicate is a good for what your doing.. instnctively one will make a subrealtion of the predicate .. and make it specific for their own use

19:40:07 <dmiles> suo has range as well

19:41:12 <dmiles> each function returns a type http://ectoplasm.teknowledge.com/inference/SKB.jsp?req=SC&name=range&skb=Merge

19:41:59 <dmiles> a function is a transliteration of a holds

19:42:28 <dmiles> like http://ectoplasm.teknowledge.com/inference/SKB.jsp?req=SA&skb=Merge&id=912

19:43:07 <dmiles> so 'range' is the last nthDomain of a function

19:43:42 <dmiles> in that link ?INST2 is type cast based on Range

19:44:35 <dmiles> heh look at http://ectoplasm.teknowledge.com/inference/SKB.jsp?req=SC&skb=Merge&id=73

19:45:42 <dmiles> ok hrrm they are using (domain TruthFn 2 TruthValue) to say (range TruthFn TruthValue)

19:45:44 <SethR> good stuff .. havent studied this part of suo yet

19:46:36 <dmiles> i am not sure how much of the sentensianal stuff is up on http://ontology.teknowledge.com (thats what people vote on)

19:47:16 <dmiles> but we have a ton of real world test cases and alot of this stuff was added for that

19:50:20 <dmiles> <dmiles> i am not sure how much of the sentensianal stuff is up on http://ontology.teknowledge.com (thats what people vote on)

19:50:22 <dmiles> <dmiles> but we have a ton of real world test cases and alot of this stuff was added for that

19:50:51 <SethR> but everyting that has been voted on is now on sigma ?

19:51:09 <SethR> + the new sentential stuff

19:51:38 <SethR> and you think this will eventually be accepted by suo

19:51:43 <dmiles> at least (i hope)

19:52:23 <SethR> great suff ... gotta go to post office .. bye

19:52:43 <dmiles> you be arround later?

19:52:59 <dmiles> maybe we should do dinner

19:53:13 <SethR> definitely :)

19:53:34 <dmiles> ok well i am going to be geetting this bot up for the next couple hours

19:53:53 <dmiles> ..you have my email right?

19:53:54 <SethR> William Logouboura is gonna be in seattle area next week we were suppose to do dinner, maybe we can combine

19:54:07 <dmiles> yes.. good idea

19:54:22 <SethR> you know william ?

19:54:56 <dmiles> Not sure.. unless met at NaiF

19:55:18 <dmiles> which might be fun to go to now that i am back in seattle

20:58:09 * danbri crahes Amaya with two half finished documents; is relieved to find Amaya auto-saved them :)

20:58:18 <bijan> Amaya is good that way.

20:58:24 <bijan> Indeed, the best thing about it.

21:07:13 <danbri>http://www.w3.org/2001/08/rdfweb/svg-foaf

21:07:13 <dc_rdfig> J: http://www.w3.org/2001/08/rdfweb/svg-foaf from danbri

21:07:50 <danbri> J:Updated RDFWeb friend-of-a-friend co-depiction demo - added an Amaya/SVG HOWTO

21:07:50 <dc_rdfig> commented item J

21:08:01 <danbri> oops

21:08:20 <DanC> Hi Danbri. What part of the planet are you on today?

21:08:31 <danbri> J:|RDFWeb / FOAF co-depiction, now with Amaya SVG HOWTO

21:08:32 <dc_rdfig> titled item J

21:08:38 <danbri> J:To celebrate the SVG REC :)

21:08:39 <dc_rdfig> commented item J

21:08:48 <sbp> Hey, cool!

21:08:49 * danbri is in Bristol for the next howeverlong

21:08:54 <DanC> that soap->.nt stuff is interesting... but the arrays themselves got lost somewhere between .xml and .nt

21:09:27 <danbri> J:Added a couple more demo examples; I ought to check that the depictees don't mind...

21:09:28 <dc_rdfig> commented item J

21:10:15 <danbri> Yes, I think something got a bit screwy. I made some edits to the .nt files but not to the .n3; there was a lot of 'daml:equivalentTo' in there that I stripped to avoid scaring off the WebServices folk ;-)

21:10:36 * danbri waves at Sean

21:10:44 * sbp waves at DanBri

21:11:12 * sbp was going to chump http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2001Sep/0030 but thinks better of it now...

21:11:59 <sbp> it's my protest against "rdfs:SuperResource"

21:12:22 <danbri> I'd like to get 5 or so SOAP examples together that we're happy with; I don't yet u/stand the SOAP rules instinctively enough to be able to do it quickly

21:12:47 <danbri> ooops, there goes the evening. And day...

21:12:59 <sbp> :-)

21:14:26 <danbri> re urn nid: I'm afraid you're going for premature standardization there Sean; this isn't a topic that's well enough understood, even without throwing new URN schemes into the mix

21:14:49 <danbri> "any resource

21:14:50 <danbri> identified using this is considered to be an existentially quantified

21:14:50 <danbri> anonymous resource, with the limits of the document defining its scope "

21:15:18 <sbp> I think if it has identity, then it can have a URI. Since anonymous nodes have to be represented in a system anyway, I think that this is valid :-)

21:15:43 <danbri> ...I don't think works. You're tricked by the misleading piece of terminology "anonymous resouces", which suggests that the anonymity is something intrinsic to the resource (rather than being a property of some description of a resource).

21:16:45 <danbri> I've thought about having genid: URI schemes etc for similar motives, but would ask that you consider waiting on this until we get the RDF Core WG's new model theory out the door

21:16:45 <sbp> well, I guess I should have left the word "anonymous" out. I can quite easily do something like: this log:forSome :x .

21:17:20 <sbp> Yeah, I've been using "anon:" in SWIPT... so many processors do it, it's becoming a joke

21:17:47 <danbri> But its a hack. Making it a hack beginning urn: doesn't make it any less a hack!

21:18:21 <sbp> ah, but then it will at least be a standardized hack. if people are going to do weird things, at least let them be weird in the same way (who said that?)

21:19:05 <sbp> and I don't think it's a hack anyway... there is a real need for it, and although it tests many of the URI axioms to the limit, IMO it doesn't break any of them

21:20:29 <sbp> it could just have easily have been a URI scheme, but I just had to do a URN...

21:20:44 <danbri> People treat urn: URIs with an innapropriate amount of reverence. I am worried we'll be answering FAQs in 2-3yrs time from folk puzzled by the IETF/URN "standard" for anonymous node identification. You could be creating a monster here Sean!

21:20:49 <danbri> hi tim

21:21:41 <sbp> I am worried that we'll still be answeting FAQs in ten years time as to why anonymous nodes can't be identified using URIs, when a core tenet of URIs and the Semantic Web is that *anything* can be represented

21:21:56 <danbri> Sean, consider: "Nodes in an RDF graph arising from description elements without and

21:21:57 <danbri> rdf:about or an rdf:ID attribute (so called anonymous resources) can

21:21:57 <danbri> be distinguished from nodes that had such an attribute." (from http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/20010801-f2f/ )

21:21:59 <sbp> it could be more of a monster by hiding the fact that anonymous nodes are resources too

21:22:42 <sbp> yes, I'm not saying that an anonymous node is that same as a Web page, or the concept of love, or whatever

21:23:03 <danbri> We're not hiding that! the RDF Core WG has made it clear that the so-called anon node construction is more than mere XML syntax.

21:23:09 <sbp> I'm just saying it is something that can be identified, identified with a URI, identified on the SW. That's the definition of a resource, is it not?

21:24:30 <danbri> If you use URI syntax to represent these nodes within an RDF graph, even a well known sub-space of URIs, you risk not making the distinction that RDF Core has just approved. A naive processor, unless it hard-coded with knowledge of your URN scheme, might mistake the urn:blah:genid thing for a real Web name for the thing it stands for.

21:24:59 <danbri> *please* wait for the model theory before requesting URI schemes for this sort of thing

21:25:02 <sbp> but the thing it stands for is an anoymous node, so that's fine

21:25:04 * danbri grovels

21:25:11 <sbp> I will wait for the model theory

21:25:16 <danbri> thanks Sean :)

21:25:38 <sbp> as long as you promise not to kick me come the ERT/PF F2F

21:25:59 * danbri wouldn't dream of kicking you

21:26:17 <danbri> Worst I do is photograph people and annotate them in SVG

21:26:21 <sbp> lol

21:26:34 <dajobe> any suggestions for what I should rename ntriples production 'namedNode' for 3rd time, after anonNode, namedNode still got moans

21:26:37 <danbri> or goad them on mailing lists if they're Dave Winer

21:27:16 <sbp> this :forSome :DaveWiner, eh?

21:27:38 <sbp> namedNode got moans: how come?

21:27:40 <danbri> He was trolling w.r.t. XML-RPC and I couldn't keep my mouth shut...

21:27:50 <dajobe> it is a node with no name, someone said

21:28:02 <danbri> iNode?

21:28:07 <sbp> Oh, I see. So what was the problem with anonNode?

21:28:09 <danbri> nemaTode?

21:28:19 <dajobe> it implied anonymity

21:28:22 <sbp> horseWithNoName

21:28:28 <DanC> sean, don't be fooled by N3's "this forSome :x." syntax. That's not a triple.

21:28:30 <dajobe> I'm gonna go with just node

21:28:59 <dajobe> I was editing the test-cases doc but guess what, amaya crashed

21:29:03 <dajobe> so i gave up

21:29:13 <sbp> Amaya crashed, really? Wow, that's a first

21:29:15 <danbri> Did it recover the edits?

21:29:19 <dajobe> no, 2nd that day

21:29:22 <dajobe> edits: lost

21:29:41 <sbp> Hmm... it usually crashes a lot (renound for it), but I rarely hear of it losing edits

21:30:07 <sbp> did the computer crash, or was it actually Amaya? If it was Amaya, it shouldn't have lost them

21:30:19 <dajobe> I run linux, so no, it didn't crash

21:30:24 <sbp> heh

21:31:34 * sbp thinks that "Amaya => Crash" as "Dürst => UTF-8"

21:33:04 * sbp suddenly twigs

21:33:05 * danbri wouldn't dream of kicking you

21:33:05 <sbp> <danbri> Worst I do is photograph people and annotate them in SVG

21:33:11 <sbp> isn't that worse than being kicked?

21:34:13 * sbp reminds himself to send the FOAF property suggestions to rdfweb-dev

21:34:55 <danbri> suggestions: please do. i'm back on this evenings/weekends again

21:35:39 <sbp> cool

21:35:56 * danbri catalogues http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/20010801-f2f/Aaron-with-Ted-Doug.jpg

21:41:20 * danbri writes http://www.w3.org/2001/08/rdfweb/co-3.svg and wonders how best to annotate overlapping areas of an image