00:00:23 <sat1> sat1 has quit
00:15:44 <a_tim> a_tim has joined #rdfig
00:18:13 <sbp> sbp has joined #rdfig
00:44:19 <sbp> sbp has quit
00:48:43 <Morbus> Morbus has joined #rdfig
01:02:04 <sbp> sbp has joined #rdfig
01:05:24 <GabeW> GabeW has joined #rdfig
01:25:21 <Morbus> Morbus has left #rdfig
02:52:28 <GabeW> GabeW has quit
02:59:32 <DanC> DanC has joined #rdfig
02:59:44 <DanC> * DanC waves, wonders if anybody is around
03:00:10 <sbp> * sbp waves
03:00:22 <DanC> this is so cool, I just gotta tell somebody: check out Apple's statement on the W3C patent policy: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-patentpolicy-comment/2001Oct/1488.html
03:01:43 <sbp> oh, wow! Apple rejects RAND
03:03:27 <AaronSw> That's incredible! Wooohoo!
03:10:28 <DanC> surfing around the archive, it seems a few flames are still coming in, but there are heaps and piles of thoughtful comments.
03:10:57 <DanC> sigh... uninformed drivel: "As a Linux user, I oppose any WC3 change to its current patent policy."
03:12:32 <sbp> and what current patent policy would that be?
03:12:47 <DanC> exactly. there is no current patent policy.
03:13:32 <sbp> it's interesting how people often assume that there *is*, though...
03:14:06 <DanC> quite.
03:14:55 <DanC> probably due to the way the first news stories were written... "W3C proposes to allow patents in its specs" and such.
03:15:46 <DanC> the patents were always there; the news is that we've been working on a policy to deal with them. Criticizing the draft policy is certainly in order, but to assume that the status quo guaranteed RF specs is clueless.
03:16:52 <DanC> I think it's nifty that even folks who have the opportunity to make member-confidential comments are using the public comment forum.
03:17:06 <DanC> e.g. Apple, HP, and here's one from Schemasoft: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-patentpolicy-comment/2001Oct/1508.html
03:17:12 <AaronSw> nifty indeed
03:17:19 <sbp> yes, that's good
03:17:42 <sbp> the fact that there's a public comments forum in the first place is also encouraging :-)
03:18:59 <DanC> really? I mean: you wouldn't just assume that a public comments forum was business-as-usual?
03:19:39 <AaronSw> at most other places ;)
03:19:52 <AaronSw> But W3C is special.
03:20:17 <AaronSw> I would have tended to lump it as internal policy, like the process doc which has no public forum
03:20:29 <sbp> yeah
03:20:36 <DanC> hmm... good point.
03:22:20 <DanC> more folks that somehow assume a magic halo around W3C specs that just isn't there: [[[ I'm concerned about the recent Patent Policy Framework draft, which
03:22:20 <DanC>      could allow W3C members to charge royalty fees for technologies
03:22:20 <DanC>      included in web standards. ]]]
03:22:48 <sbp> c.f. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-patentpolicy-comment/2001Oct/1065
03:24:22 <DanC> er... sean, 1065 clearly violates member-confidentiality. I hope you don't expect me to be happy about that.
03:24:35 <sbp> of course not
03:24:55 <sbp> but I would argue that it doesn't
03:25:15 <AaronSw> How does it violate Member-Confidentiality?
03:25:28 <AaronSw> Oh, I see.
03:25:29 <DanC> "On 5th April 2001, an internal draft of the Patent Policy Framework
03:25:29 <DanC> document was announced to the chairs:"
03:25:37 <DanC> chairs is member-confidential.
03:26:08 <sbp> and what did I excerpt?
03:26:38 <AaronSw> You stole metadata!
03:26:48 <DanC> if you don't understand that it violates member-confidentiality, then I don't think you should enjoy that privilege. I could understand it as a sort of act of civil disobedience. But if you don't accept that what you did violates your agreement, I don't think you should be able to see member-confidential stuff.
03:27:35 <sbp> intersting standpoint. But since you do not know the motivation that lead to my statement, perhaps a rash one
03:28:17 <Morbus> Morbus has joined #rdfig
03:28:52 <Morbus> Morbus has left #rdfig
03:29:20 <DanC> first of all, sean, it was your WG chair who had the responsibility to forward the info, not the patent policy editors/WG. Did you take it up with your chair?
03:29:48 <sbp> even if I did, I would not be at liberty to discuss that
03:29:54 <AaronSw> Why not just send it to w3c-news?
03:30:14 <AaronSw> Oops, by revealing that, I may have stolen more metadata.
03:30:48 <sbp> w3c-news is public
03:31:03 <AaronSw> Oh, I meant the (possibly non-existant) member news one.
03:31:15 <DanC> er... sean, you understand that I have a job to do, right? and part of that job is enforcing member-confidentiality. With the information I have right now, I'm pretty much obliged to get your account closed.
03:33:04 <DanC> your comments in 1065 about the TAG are totally off base. There was never any serious possibility that the TAG proceedings wouldn't be public.
03:33:12 <AaronSw> Sean, didn't they explain this at W3C school? http://www.w3schools.com/w3c/
03:33:27 <AaronSw> """After you have studied W3C School, you will know what W3C is.
03:33:28 <AaronSw> You will know about the World Wide Web Consortium, and how the Web is standardized."""
03:34:04 <sbp> TAG: another thing that I am not at liberty to discuss... ugh
03:34:04 <dc_rdfig> Label TAG not found.
03:34:21 <sbp> not publically, anyway
03:34:38 <sbp> I can send you a pointer off-list if you would appreciate that
03:34:51 <DanC> * DanC has a hard time understanding how sbp is not at liberty to discuss all this stuff.
03:34:56 <AaronSw> sbp, you're allowed to link to w3c-conf docs, timbl sez so
03:35:27 <sbp> some stuff is conducted under private correspondance
03:36:13 <DanC> but sean, seriously, do you really think your 1065 didn't divulge any member-confidential information?
03:37:18 <AaronSw> DanC, you'
03:37:30 <AaronSw> ve already divulged the existance of a previous draft on this forum
03:37:49 <Morbus> Morbus has joined #rdfig
03:38:18 <DanC> no, what I said about previous drafts was already public: "This proposal has been under development since October 1999"
03:38:31 <Morbus> Morbus has left #rdfig
03:38:35 <AaronSw> OK, so we know part of what sbp said was public
03:39:55 <DanC> I think I should go before I learn more stuff that obliges me to close people's accounts. I don't think it's a good use of my time.
03:41:04 <DanC> * DanC wanders off...
03:41:12 <sbp> thank you...
03:43:54 <sbp> ah, metadata. I do love it...
03:47:56 <sbp> heh, http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2001-07-12.txt makes for interesting reading
03:54:31 <AaronSw> I hereby term the phenomenon that conversations about W3C-related topics end whenever drugs are mentioned Swartz's 43rd law.
03:55:13 <sbp> what's the 42nd law?
03:55:44 <AaronSw> I'm saving it for something really special.
03:56:14 <AaronSw> the 43rd is a corollary to Godwin's law... or something
03:56:53 <sbp> er... kinda
04:06:15 <sbp> sbp has quit
05:22:58 <dc_rdfig> dc_rdfig has quit
05:22:58 <sandro> sandro has quit
05:23:19 <sandro> sandro has joined #rdfig
05:24:18 <dc_rdfig> dc_rdfig has joined #rdfig
05:33:54 <danbri> danbri has joined #rdfig
06:13:03 <lasDesk> lasDesk has quit
06:13:58 <lasDesk> lasDesk has joined #rdfig
06:38:16 <stefan> stefan has joined #rdfig
06:38:52 <stefan> Anybody here?
07:00:06 <x0ni> x0ni has joined #rdfig
07:02:32 <x0ni> hi
07:05:55 <stefan> stefan has quit
07:31:34 <x0ni> x0ni has quit
07:50:55 <blanu> blanu has joined #rdfig
07:52:29 <danbri> hi brandon/blanu
07:52:53 <blanu> Hi! What's up?
07:53:46 <danbri> not so much, just saying hi :)
07:54:06 <danbri> * danbri was wondering what the Morpheus/Kazaa P2P model was for dealing with NAT/firewall
07:54:56 <danbri> ...noticed that my laptop doesn't seem to be accessed much by other morpheus clients, but it is occasionally; which means somethings going on in addition to the HTTP server on port :1214 (cos that's private to my network)
07:55:18 <danbri> * danbri should read the giFT srcs
07:55:20 <blanu> I don't know for sure, but I imagine that since it's centralized they might proxy for people behind firewalls.
07:55:55 <blanu> I can certainly find out though. The lead developer of the open source morpheus client hangs out on #infoanarchy.
07:56:27 <danbri> what is #infoanarchy? something like an IRC version of the decentralisation list?
07:57:19 <blanu> Sort of, yeah. More of the IRC version of the p2p-hackers list. All of the people from MojoNation, BitTorrent, giFT, Alpine, etc. are there. There is a website infoanarchy.org.
07:57:27 <danbri> joins...
07:57:30 <danbri> oh, cool :)
07:58:27 <blanu> :-)
07:58:52 <blanu> I imported the daily chump bot from this channel to #infoanarchy because I think it is so cool.
08:01:35 <danbri> Oh, I was just thinking of doing that! Does it spew an RSS feed too?
08:02:39 <danbri> * danbri adds #infoanarchy to his startup channel list
08:02:58 <blanu> I haven't set it up yet. All I have is this ever browing archive of XML files which I need to transform and make available. I just haven't had the time, which is unfortuante because people have entered tons of URLs once they discovered the existence of a bot that logs URLs.
08:03:44 <danbri> guess you could make the raw xml available online for starters?
08:05:11 <blanu> That is true, but I don't think it will take long to make HTML available. It's on my TODO list.
08:25:14 <deltab> deltab has quit
08:26:35 <deltab> deltab has joined #rdfig
08:45:01 <tim-gone> tim-gone has quit
08:45:01 <irc.openprojects.net> Disconnected from irc.openprojects.net (ERROR :Closing Link: logger[tatooine.ilrt.bris.ac.uk] by benford.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for logger[tatooine.ilrt.bris.ac.uk]))
08:46:02 <logger> logger has joined #rdfig
08:46:02 <benford.openprojects.net> topic is: Semantic Web Chat - http://www.w3.org/RDF/Interest/#irc
08:46:02 <benford.openprojects.net> Users on #rdfig: logger tim-gone deltab blanu lasDesk danbri dc_rdfig sandro @DanC a_tim oierw` Bayta_ chihchun ArtB AaronSw Iron_SpermWhale em xbill kifbot 
08:46:03 <ChanServ> This channel is logged and blogged: http://logicerror.com/rdfIRCWelcome
09:07:49 <ArtB> ArtB has quit
09:09:14 <ArtB> ArtB has joined #rdfig
09:28:22 <dajobe> dajobe has joined #rdfig
09:57:03 <libby> libby has joined #rdfig
09:58:51 <danbri> hey lib!
10:12:41 <shellac> shellac has joined #rdfig
11:31:03 <azaroth> azaroth has joined #rdfig
11:33:40 <Morbus> Morbus has joined #rdfig
11:34:20 <Morbus> Morbus has left #rdfig
11:46:36 <azaroth> Anyone know of a document comparing the Z39.50 Attribute Architecture to the semantics of the SW ?
11:46:51 <danbri> not as such
11:47:00 <azaroth> Because they seem quite similar to me.
11:47:21 <danbri> If you had a dictaphone and some beer I'd happily rant about it, unconstrained by nont knowing much about the new architecture
11:48:03 <danbri> it's basically still attribute-and-typed-value pairs, right? New feature being ability to mix together values from different namespaces/attribute sets?
11:48:07 <azaroth> * azaroth doesn't mean BIB1, but the actual /architectured/ attributes obviously. BIB1 isn't a lot like anything ;)
11:48:27 <danbri> yeah BIB1 =~ DC, ish.
11:49:01 <azaroth> Basically.  We can say 'Title from Cross Domain, Semanitically qualified by Mudname from MUD-1'
11:49:25 <danbri> which is akin to rdfs:subPropertyOf ?
11:49:30 <azaroth> Yup.
11:50:03 <danbri> Different to SemWeb: how do you name and 'register' (make findable) your descriptive attribute sets? how do you encode abitrarily squiggly data graphs?
11:50:28 <azaroth> Register OIDs with the maintenance agency.
11:51:15 <azaroth> And you only use the most appropriate level of subPropertyness, if I understand your question
11:52:34 <azaroth> So, I could build an attributeSet which was dependent entirely on BIB2 but added a few extensions for Archives. Then I'd use BIB2 semantic attributes for most things and only my own set when BIB2 wasn't appropriate
11:54:45 <danbri> central regsitration: unfashionable in SW circles
11:54:51 <danbri> some similar ideas though, yeah
11:55:42 <azaroth> * azaroth nods. You can have implementer's OIDs for attribute sets, but there's no official way to 'find' them
11:57:13 <danbri> if oids have a mapping into URI space, we can at least map them into RDFS and pretend they're properties, and as such store/search/describe them in RDF
11:57:35 <azaroth> Their description would be, probably.
11:58:16 <ArtB-logg> ArtB-logg has joined #rdfig
11:58:29 <azaroth> For example 1.2.840.10003.3.171.1 is http://gondolin.hist.liv.ac.uk/~cheshire/l5r/CCG2.html
12:03:31 <azaroth> But if it was important, I'm sure that the maintenance agency would provide URI space based on OID
12:03:57 <danbri> I think there may be an oid: URI scheme spec somewhere (Draft?)
12:04:32 <blanu> blanu is now known as blanuzzz
12:07:36 <deltab> RFC 3061
12:09:41 <deltab> e.g.      urn:oid:1.3.6.1
12:09:52 <azaroth> * azaroth reads and nods.
12:09:55 <azaroth> Voila :)
12:11:52 <deltab> there's a database at http://www.alvestrand.no/objectid/
12:28:12 <chaals> chaals has joined #rdfig
12:56:54 <libby> hey chaals
13:00:52 <sbp> sbp has joined #rdfig
13:01:06 <AaronSw> 'lo
13:01:16 <sbp> Hi there
13:03:49 <AaronSw> sbp, any thoughts on the anonymous nodes proposal the WG is discussing today?
13:06:30 <sbp> sbp has quit
13:29:01 <dajobe> dajobe has left #rdfig
13:31:01 <AaronSw> AaronSw has quit
13:48:19 <shellac> shellac has quit
13:52:59 <azaroth> azaroth has quit
13:58:59 <AaronSw> AaronSw has joined #rdfig
14:19:45 <shellac> shellac has joined #rdfig
14:34:50 <AaronSw> Watch out, Brits -- world will end soon: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/28/22200.html
14:58:12 <libby> h'm that one's been doing the rounds for a few weeks now. I think there's an IRA version too
14:59:02 <AaronSw> AaronSw has quit
14:59:38 <libby> pretty neat article
15:07:29 <DanC> * DanC is back
15:07:32 <DanC> * DanC is back
15:07:48 <DanC> * DanC is away: back later today
15:36:41 <chaals> chaals has quit
15:36:41 <deltab> deltab has quit
15:36:41 <danbri> danbri has quit
15:36:41 <lasDesk> lasDesk has quit
15:36:41 <shellac> shellac has quit
15:36:41 <ArtB-logg> ArtB-logg has quit
15:36:41 <DanC> DanC has quit
15:36:41 <xbill> xbill has quit
15:36:41 <Bayta_> Bayta_ has quit
15:36:41 <oierw`> oierw` has quit
15:36:41 <Iron_SpermWhale> Iron_SpermWhale has quit
15:36:41 <a_tim> a_tim has quit
15:36:41 <dc_rdfig> dc_rdfig has quit
15:36:41 <em> em has quit
15:36:41 <blanuzzz> blanuzzz has quit
15:36:41 <chihchun> chihchun has quit
15:37:24 <DanC> DanC has joined #rdfig
15:37:24 <chihchun> chihchun has joined #rdfig
15:37:24 <Iron_SpermWhale> Iron_SpermWhale has joined #rdfig
15:37:24 <em> em has joined #rdfig
15:37:24 <xbill> xbill has joined #rdfig
15:37:24 <Bayta_> Bayta_ has joined #rdfig
15:37:24 <oierw`> oierw` has joined #rdfig
15:37:24 <a_tim> a_tim has joined #rdfig
15:37:24 <dc_rdfig> dc_rdfig has joined #rdfig
15:37:24 <danbri> danbri has joined #rdfig
15:37:24 <lasDesk> lasDesk has joined #rdfig
15:37:24 <blanuzzz> blanuzzz has joined #rdfig
15:37:24 <deltab> deltab has joined #rdfig
15:37:24 <ArtB-logg> ArtB-logg has joined #rdfig
15:37:24 <chaals> chaals has joined #rdfig
15:37:24 <shellac> shellac has joined #rdfig
15:37:48 <sbp> sbp has joined #rdfig
15:38:29 <sbp> <AaronSw> sbp, any thoughts on the anonymous nodes proposal the WG is discussing today?
15:38:32 <sbp> * sbp chases that up
15:40:18 <sbp> taking that to be the thing discussed in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Oct/0141
15:42:13 <sbp> I'm indifferent to it. The proposal does not suggest that bNodes cannot be identified with URIs AFAICT, it just states that those particular resources do not have URIs in the model: that they are unlabelled. A resource could have a bNode in one graph and a URI in another, I presume, so that's alright
15:42:30 <sbp> er... actually, it does suggest that bNodes don't have URIs, but that's not what I meant
15:43:12 <sbp> s/suggest that bNodes/suggest that the resources identified by bNode labels
15:43:40 <sbp> I'm not massively happy with:-
15:43:41 <sbp> [[[
15:43:42 <sbp> These names are not URIs, and
15:43:42 <sbp> > > their scope is the N-triples document in which they appear.
15:43:43 <sbp> ]]]
15:43:52 <sbp> what's a document, please? Normative definition?
15:44:35 <chaals> "This"
15:44:42 <chaals> * chaals hides
15:44:59 <sbp> This?
15:45:18 <sbp> come out of hiding, and lay your money on the table!
15:45:58 <ArtB-logg> ArtB-logg has left #rdfig
15:46:21 <sbp> I'm also not so sure about "asserting the existence of at least one resource". Don't forget that the existential itself is/can be/+ a resource
15:46:52 <sbp> I guess that's suitably implied, though...
15:47:22 <sbp> * sbp decides to mail this to Aaron "Two Monitors" Swartz
15:48:28 <sbp> done: CC to www-archive@w3.org
15:48:46 <sbp> Gotta run
15:51:47 <sbp> sbp has quit
15:57:35 <libby> libby has quit
16:11:33 <chihchun> chihchun has quit
16:13:42 <shellac> http://rdfweb.org/~pldms/2001/10/RDFAuthor/RDFAuthor.sit.hqx
16:13:42 <dc_rdfig> A: http://rdfweb.org/~pldms/2001/10/RDFAuthor/RDFAuthor.sit.hqx from shellac
16:14:18 <shellac> A:|RDFAuthor - graphical authoring tool for Mac OS X
16:14:18 <dc_rdfig> titled item A
16:14:48 <shellac> A: written in java, using jena for exports
16:14:48 <dc_rdfig> commented item A
16:16:33 <chihchun> chihchun has joined #rdfig
16:17:53 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Hi all.  Services will be back up in a moment, accompanied by the usual splits.  Thanks for your patience.
16:18:27 <chaals> chaals has quit
16:18:27 <deltab> deltab has quit
16:18:27 <danbri> danbri has quit
16:18:27 <lasDesk> lasDesk has quit
16:18:27 <shellac> shellac has quit
16:18:27 <DanC> DanC has quit
16:18:27 <xbill> xbill has quit
16:18:27 <Bayta_> Bayta_ has quit
16:18:27 <oierw`> oierw` has quit
16:18:27 <Iron_SpermWhale> Iron_SpermWhale has quit
16:18:27 <a_tim> a_tim has quit
16:18:27 <dc_rdfig> dc_rdfig has quit
16:18:27 <em> em has quit
16:18:31 <ChanServ> ChanServ has changed the topic to: Semantic Web Chat - http://www.w3.org/RDF/Interest/#irc
16:18:40 <ChanServ> This channel is logged and blogged: http://logicerror.com/rdfIRCWelcome
16:18:54 <DanC> DanC has joined #rdfig
16:18:54 <em> em has joined #rdfig
16:18:54 <Iron_SpermWhale> Iron_SpermWhale has joined #rdfig
16:18:54 <xbill> xbill has joined #rdfig
16:18:54 <Bayta_> Bayta_ has joined #rdfig
16:18:54 <oierw`> oierw` has joined #rdfig
16:18:54 <a_tim> a_tim has joined #rdfig
16:18:54 <dc_rdfig> dc_rdfig has joined #rdfig
16:18:54 <danbri> danbri has joined #rdfig
16:18:54 <lasDesk> lasDesk has joined #rdfig
16:18:54 <deltab> deltab has joined #rdfig
16:18:54 <chaals> chaals has joined #rdfig
16:18:54 <shellac> shellac has joined #rdfig
16:18:56 <shellac> A: has simple drag and drop interface, and allows schemas to be imported
16:18:56 <dc_rdfig> commented item A
16:20:04 <shellac> A: written in java. Original idea: libby miller. Written by libby and damian
16:20:04 <dc_rdfig> commented item A
16:20:45 <shellac> A: mailto:dm_steer@hotmail.com 
16:20:45 <dc_rdfig> commented item A
16:21:15 <shellac> A: at some point it will have a swing interface - if we find a decent tool
16:21:15 <dc_rdfig> commented item A
16:22:20 <shellac> A: screenshot http://rdfweb.org/~pldms/2001/10/RDFAuthor/RDFAuthor.jpeg
16:22:20 <dc_rdfig> commented item A
16:22:55 <dajobe> dajobe has joined #rdfig
16:38:40 <shellac> A:source code will be released real soon now
16:38:40 <dc_rdfig> commented item A
16:39:19 <dajobe> shellac: do images like this A:screenshot +[image-uri|alt-text]
16:40:14 <shellac> make me ;-)
16:40:54 <shellac> A:screenshot + http://rdfweb.org/~pldms/2001/10/RDFAuthor/RDFAuthor.jpeg
16:40:54 <dc_rdfig> commented item A
16:41:47 <shellac> A:screenshot + [http://rdfweb.org/~pldms/2001/10/RDFAuthor/RDFAuthor.jpeg|RDFAuthor screenshot]
16:41:47 <dc_rdfig> commented item A
16:42:03 <dajobe> no space between + and []
16:42:22 <dajobe> maybe a bit big as an iline image, though
16:43:16 <shellac> indeed
16:44:51 <shellac> who chose such a confusing syntax? I mean [ | ] says 'alternate options' to me
16:44:59 <shellac> I'm pretty simple tho'
16:47:18 <shellac> dajobe: thanks for the suggestion
16:47:41 <dajobe> very pretty
16:47:59 <shellac> I'm very superficial
16:48:09 <shellac> using mac os x helps, of course
16:48:23 <dajobe> not *your* mac though?
16:48:37 <shellac> libby's G4
16:48:55 <shellac> my mac is waaayyyyy too underpowered for java
16:49:21 <shellac> 66MHz 601 - I think not
17:27:16 <shellac> shellac has quit
17:30:17 <dajobe> dajobe has quit
17:51:01 <AaronSw> AaronSw has joined #rdfig
17:55:56 <sbp> sbp has joined #rdfig
18:02:09 <dajobe> dajobe has joined #rdfig
18:03:06 <sbp> sbp has quit
18:06:42 <GabeW> GabeW has joined #rdfig
18:09:24 <AaronSw> Ooh, diddly! 
18:09:26 <AaronSw> * AaronSw downloads A:
18:10:41 <AaronSw> LOL @ "66MHz 601"... i think I had one of those
18:12:43 <AaronSw> A:Cool! Nice work... some suggestions...
18:12:43 <dc_rdfig> commented item A
18:13:15 <dajobe> best by email AaronSw
18:13:22 <AaronSw> A: The "Add" interface might make more sense to Mac users if the standard "pointer/circle/square" toolbar system was used.
18:13:23 <dc_rdfig> commented item A
18:13:30 <AaronSw> I'll compose them in the chump and then mail them.
18:13:48 <dajobe> don't forget, won't be an exclusive mac app eventually...
18:14:00 <danbri> by web would be cool too; I just been talking with Libby and Damian about feature-blaot ideas for this. Form an orderly queue...
18:14:04 <AaronSw> well we will enforce our Mac paradigm on you sad windows users!
18:14:14 <AaronSw> (and linux) because it's just better
18:14:16 <AaronSw> :-)
18:14:37 <AaronSw> A:floating info window is sort of annoying to use to name things -- be better if you could click and label
18:14:37 <dc_rdfig> commented item A
18:14:52 <danbri> I think there's an excellent case for sticking with the UI library he's used; it's very slick, integrated with Mac etc. But not up to me :)
18:16:03 <AaronSw> A:Save as and export as items could be combined, since they don't seem to do anything special...
18:16:03 <dc_rdfig> commented item A
18:16:19 <AaronSw> A:literals might want to be a different color/shape
18:16:19 <dc_rdfig> commented item A
18:19:21 <AaronSw> just for the record, the above thing about "enforcing the Mac paradigm" was a joke... us Mac users rarely share our world-domination plans.
18:20:40 <GabeW> because they are so laughable? long live the amigaOS! j/k
18:22:20 <AaronSw> Go Amigas!
18:22:49 <dajobe> I got an "Win95 / Mac89" badge somewhere...
18:23:09 <AaronSw> Heh, "You go, Amigas" would make quite a funny bilingual joke.
18:24:01 <GabeW> actually I like the mac interface the bestus, I just haven't used a mac in probably 3 years
18:25:36 <GabeW> "bestus" being "best" for the rest of you
18:25:54 <chihchun_> chihchun_ has joined #rdfig
18:25:56 <GabeW> So when can we play with RDFAuthor? 
18:26:21 <AaronSw> As soon as you get Mac OS X.
18:26:29 <AaronSw> (and a machine to run it) ;)
18:26:38 <GabeW> But isn't RDFAuthor java?
18:26:51 <chihchun> chihchun has quit
18:26:54 <AaronSw> Yeah, but not sure if the UI library it uses is portable -- you can try it.
18:27:12 <AaronSw> Link's in the chump.... http://rdfweb.org/~pldms/2001/10/RDFAuthor/RDFAuthor.sit.hqx
18:27:14 <GabeW> yeah, doesn't look like swing or anything java-ish
18:27:53 <GabeW> The chump ui where you click on the title to get to the link always throws me for a loop
18:28:36 <AaronSw> Really? What would you expect?
18:28:52 <GabeW> <blink></blink> ;-)
18:29:13 <GabeW> Donno .. I've gotten used to "click here" =(
18:31:48 <GabeW> so I guess my original "when do WE (non mac users) get to play around with RDFAuthor?" question still stands, in a different sorta way
18:31:57 <GabeW> heeh
18:32:12 <GabeW> nobody needs to answer that
18:35:14 <chaals> Aaron, I havea  BBC micro hanging around in Melbourne if you are ever looking for something to play with ;-)
18:35:36 <AaronSw> BBC micro?
18:35:46 <chaals> We used to think it was a commputer.
18:35:47 <AaronSw> I still have to get my Timex Sinclair working again.
18:35:53 <chaals> It was very cool...
18:36:08 <dajobe> my sinclair watch (digital watch #1) still works
18:36:11 <chaals> And mine was a model B, with the full 32k RAM
18:36:18 <AaronSw> That was fun... about the only thing I could get it to do though was "repeat 10 print 'aaron'"
18:36:27 <AaronSw> back then, at least
18:36:52 <chaals> Aaah, the Beeb was a bit cooler then.
18:37:17 <AaronSw> Did it come with news anchors? Or is that a different BBC?
18:37:20 <danbri> I got a Mac89=Mac99 badge somewhere. Mac2001 is neat tho
18:37:30 <chaals> It had software in ROM, a half-decent BASIC, and you could take  that out anyway and burn your own chips if you were a serious assembler nerd with more money than I had.
18:38:00 <AaronSw> * AaronSw thinks danbri's badge is funnier... hadn't heard of that one
18:38:03 <danbri> Gabe, yeah, you won't get it running w/out MacOS X. It's the NextStep based libraries that make it so purty
18:38:12 <danbri> badge - I just made it up
18:39:03 <danbri> Timex Sinclair: that's z381 or zx-spectrum? (original uk names...)
18:39:18 <AaronSw> the z381, I think
18:39:49 <danbri> * danbri learnt everything he knows about computers on his zx81. In 1982. That probably explains a lot about my coding style.
18:39:52 <danbri> goto 20
18:40:01 <AaronSw> Now it all makes sense. ;)
18:40:08 <chaals> * chaals learned programming before danbri then.
18:40:31 <AaronSw> Ahh, no, it's the zx-spectrum according to "planet sinclair"
18:40:37 <danbri> Yeah, oldie. 
18:40:39 <chaals> On an Apple ][+ ! With an extra memory expansion card, to make it big enough to run Logo, in 1981
18:41:02 <chaals> (although I had to go to the University at the other end of the Universe to do it)
18:41:06 <AaronSw> No, nevermind it's a zx81 with a new case.
18:41:33 <chaals> (well, 20 miles into the suburbs anyway)
18:41:34 <AaronSw> My first computer was the Mac 128k, I think.
18:42:19 <chaals> My first machine was a microbee.
18:42:33 <chaals> A Z80-based Australian-made thing, IIRC.
18:42:47 <danbri> lemme think: I had it I think for birthday, jan 1982. Yup. Age 10. Downhill all the way since then.
18:43:04 <chaals> Hey! Where are all the older guys on this list???
18:43:23 <AaronSw> They're all 29 and holding
18:43:26 <danbri> Doom, Quake etc all pale into comparison w.r.t. 3D Monster Maze on ZX81, which they are all based on
18:43:29 <chaals> :P
18:43:35 <danbri> * danbri not holding on for much longer
18:44:54 <chaals> Somewhere I think I might have my first laptop.
18:45:12 <chaals> T1100+ with TWO! floppy drives and 512k ram
18:45:34 <chaals> I recently looked at my DOS 2.11 disks, but don't have anything to put them into.
18:46:28 <danbri> A Java question: has anyone here managed to write files into the Web with HTTP PUT using java.net.URL ? 
18:46:58 <danbri> It's for Damian's editor thingy... we tried having it save state to my PUT-enabled webserver, but no workie
18:47:29 <AaronSw> Well, you could just logon to your server using Mac OS X's builtin webdavfs...
18:47:34 <GabeW> considering POST has to be hacked together, I wouldn't think PUT is any easier
18:48:20 <danbri> How?
18:48:23 <danbri> aaron, I mean.
18:48:34 <danbri> I only implement PUT, not the whole webdav kerboodle
18:48:48 <danbri> Can OS X do something useful with plain old PUT?
18:48:50 <AaronSw> Yeah, I think you'd need the whole WebDAV kaboodle set up.
18:49:23 <AaronSw> But you'd want that anyway, right? You only need mod_dav, I suppose.
18:52:32 <danbri> No I don't think I do, desparately. But curious I guess. I like having my own PUT-handler installed, so I can do CVS checkins, validation etc.; installed DAV will probably screw with that.
18:55:48 <AaronSw> Cool, so jwz did start coding intertwingle.
19:00:46 <sbp> sbp has joined #rdfig
19:18:47 <wendy> wendy has joined #rdfig
19:19:37 <sbp> * sbp waves
19:20:13 <wendy> hello
19:24:25 <Bayta> Bayta has joined #rdfig
19:31:41 <bijan> bijan has joined #rdfig
19:52:10 <AaronSw> Hi bijan
19:59:29 <AaronSw> Heh, just what we needed: "A Radical Reinterpretation of RDF and RDF Schema plus Datatypes" from Peter Patel-Schneider
19:59:47 <sbp> Heh heh
20:00:13 <sbp> ah, I've just got it too...
20:17:36 <sbp> wonder what he means by "(I have not yet incorporated rdf:Description here.)"?
20:23:19 <sbp> sbp has quit
20:29:28 <sbp> sbp has joined #rdfig
20:34:04 <DanC> I read about a page of PeterPS's message, didn't find any motivation, and stopped reading.
20:34:39 <danbri> me too; though mentally bookmarked for next time I do a trawl on progress w.r.t. the XML/RDF relationship
20:34:47 <DanC> I'm pretty bummed about today's RDF Core telcon, and the WG in general. We don't seem to be able to close issues.
20:35:23 <danbri> So I gather.
20:35:31 <danbri> * danbri reading yr msg now
20:35:36 <sandro> Is that because of the nature of the field, or just this WG?
20:35:57 <DanC> If ever an issue was ready to be closed, it was today's item 12, anon resources. The objections seemed, to me, to come completely from left field.
20:36:18 <danbri> who objected? I was in other meetings, tried to follow in irc
20:37:57 <danbri> Re Model Theory, I have seen highly mathematical messages flying back and forth between PeterPS and Pat Hayes, that seem to pertain to the formalisation of our notion of Literals, and to datatyping. I have for weeks lacked the bandwidth to follow or try to guide any of this.
20:38:16 <danbri> ...I'd like to know how others are finding the MT-based approach.
20:38:26 <AaronSw> * AaronSw found Dan's message Inspiring ;)
20:39:22 <sbp> * sbp is glad to see Capitals being used for Classes
20:40:56 <AaronSw> I think RonD was the only one who objected to the anon nodes decision, but suggested to bwm that we vote and move on.
20:49:31 <SethR> SethR has joined #rdfig
20:53:23 <dajobe> a bunch of people objected to the words
20:53:36 <dajobe> but they should have done that earlier
20:54:11 <dajobe> jeremy wasn't doing a "live-commentry" style irc log, you need to be fast for that
20:55:05 <dajobe> re peter p-s's mail; I gave up in 1st screenful.  I am only interested in things based on Pat's MT doc
21:13:35 <SeanP> SeanP has joined #rdfig
21:13:39 <sbp> sbp has quit
21:13:39 <SeanP> SeanP has quit
21:13:45 <sbp> sbp has joined #rdfig
21:15:47 <jrn> jrn has joined #rdfig
21:16:08 <bijan> Morning folks.
21:16:25 <AaronSw> Afternoon.
21:16:34 <AaronSw> I got Squeak to work, but got scared and ran off
21:16:51 <bijan> Heh.
21:16:57 <AaronSw> logger, grep -i Squeak
21:17:06 <logger> I'm logging.  I found 72 answers for 'Squeak' (showing 0...4)
21:17:08 <logger> 0) 2001-10-12 21:16:57 <AaronSw> logger, grep -i Squeak
21:17:09 <logger> 1) 2001-10-12 21:16:34 <AaronSw> I got Squeak to work, but got scared and ran off
21:17:10 <logger> 2) 2001-10-04 19:53:53 <AaronSw> Squeak is slowly pulling itself together.. I know have a really bad imitation of a bach fugue...
21:17:11 <logger> 3) 2001-10-04 19:51:03 <AaronSw> Whee, I am in SqueakLand!
21:17:12 <logger> 4) 2001-10-04 19:42:27 <AaronSw> Ahh, here they are: ftp://st.cs.uiuc.edu/Smalltalk/Squeak/3.0/platform-independent/
21:17:12 <bijan> Sorry, I've been sick.
21:17:28 <AaronSw> are you feeling better?
21:17:31 <bijan> Imitation?
21:17:38 <bijan> I think it's an actual bache fugue.
21:17:40 <AaronSw> It was all skippy for a bit.
21:17:46 <bijan> Somewhat.
21:17:54 <AaronSw> sounded like a drowning bach fugue, but then fixed itself
21:18:23 <bijan> sound on *nix is often a tricky business, i'm given to understadn.
21:18:43 <AaronSw> 19:59:59 <AaronSw> Hmm, once it starts working it's pretty cool.
21:18:43 <AaronSw> 20:08:31 <AaronSw> I feel like I'm trapped inside some low-rate children's television show with a shortage of graphic designers.
21:18:43 <AaronSw> 20:08:43 <AaronSw> I think I'm going to wait until Bijan gets back before doing any more.
21:19:08 <AaronSw> ;-)
21:19:23 <bijan> Er...hmmm...Well, you'll have to be nicer if I'm going to help you :)
21:19:31 <AaronSw> Yeah, just kidding. ;-)
21:19:42 <AaronSw> It was quite an experience playing with Squeak -- very interesting look to everything.
21:19:49 <bijan> No no, The SqueakPolice will be knocking on the door :)
21:19:57 <AaronSw> Uh oh!
21:20:24 <bijan> for me, some of the most interesting stuff is the hypertextuality/mediatiy of the IDE.
21:21:03 <bijan> Actually, what's *really* interesting (for me) is seeing how WikiWiki is a partial implementation of that IDE in HTML/CGI
21:23:35 <AaronSw> Hmm, that actually sounds quite cool.
21:23:41 <AaronSw> I will have to look into this.
21:24:47 <bijan> One of my longer term projects is to rework the Smalltalk IDE but for "regular" stuff.
21:25:08 <bijan> I.e., text snippets, papers, webpages, etc.
21:25:20 <AaronSw> that'd be pretty cool
21:25:30 <bijan> Yes.
21:27:39 <oierw`> oierw` has quit
21:28:15 <oierw`> oierw` has joined #rdfig
21:38:24 <sbp> sbp has quit
21:39:47 <wendy> wendy has quit
21:40:52 <sbp> sbp has joined #rdfig
21:43:01 <blanuzzz> blanuzzz is now known as blanu
21:45:46 <sbp> sbp has quit
21:49:42 <GabeW> GabeW has quit
21:58:42 <chaals> chaals has quit
22:02:43 <sbp> sbp has joined #rdfig
22:05:48 <sbp> sbp has quit
22:09:35 <sbp> sbp has joined #rdfig
22:12:16 <sbp> sbp has quit
22:14:49 <sbp> sbp has joined #rdfig
22:14:50 <sbp> sbp has quit
22:14:55 <sbp> sbp has joined #rdfig
22:15:59 <dajobe> dajobe has left #rdfig
22:16:57 <sbp> sbp has quit
22:17:15 <sbp> sbp has joined #rdfig
22:23:14 <jhendler> jhendler has joined #rdfig
22:27:51 <sbp> sbp is now known as sbp_
22:27:55 <sbp_> sbp_ is now known as SeanP
22:28:39 <jhendler> jhendler has left #rdfig
22:29:07 <SeanP> SeanP has quit
22:29:12 <sbp_> sbp_ has joined #rdfig
22:29:33 <sbp_> sbp_ is now known as sbp
22:34:57 <sandro> sandro has quit
22:35:08 <sandro> sandro has joined #rdfig
22:35:12 <Morbus> Morbus has joined #rdfig
22:43:30 <Morbus> Morbus has left #rdfig
22:49:31 <GabeW> GabeW has joined #rdfig
22:58:52 <SethR> SethR has quit
23:20:05 <Morbus> Morbus has joined #rdfig
23:23:42 <Morbus> Morbus has left #rdfig
23:55:59 <GabeW> GabeW has quit