Semantic Web Interest Group IRC Chat Logs for 2001-10-19

NOTICE: #rdfig logs are being turned off 2004-12-03. Please switch to the new and shiny #swig channel for Semantic Web Interest Group chat. Change your client to #swig and enjoy the new experience. Or read the latest #swig logs to see what you've been missing :)

00:38:49 <AaronSw> Hello

00:38:56 * rillian waves

01:26:31 <rillianbis> rillianbis is now known as rillian

01:26:40 <AaronSw> How's Snak?

01:26:49 <rillian> better than Athena

01:26:57 <rillian> but still far from ideal

01:27:13 <rillian> neither of them seem to deal with disconnects very well

01:27:31 <AaronSw> Hmm, how would you imagine disconnects working?

01:27:41 <rillian> don't know much about it really

01:28:00 <rillian> but both clients seem to not notify you if you're disconnected via ping-timeout

01:28:13 <rillian> snak at least doesn't erase your scrollbuffer :)

01:28:14 <AaronSw> Ahh, yeah -- I emailed him about that and he said it'd be in the next version.

01:28:20 <AaronSw> (the ping-timeout thing)

01:28:29 <rillian> nifty

01:28:49 <rillian> maybe I'll have to pay for it then

01:29:07 * rillian bought ircle early this year, but it was just going nowhere

01:29:35 <AaronSw> Yeah, he's quite good about answering email.

01:30:20 <rillian> the channel layout is an interesting idea as well

01:30:49 <rillian> I seem not to mess up quite as much

01:31:10 <rillian> though the scrollbars should work in the non-selected panes :)

01:31:51 <AaronSw> True, email him about that.

01:32:13 <AaronSw> It works in the finder if you hold Command down.

01:34:42 <rillian> have you been lusting for the new apple machines?

01:38:03 <AaronSw> They don't seem that much different that the previous models...

01:38:07 <AaronSw> I do wish I had a bigger disk.

01:41:27 <rillian> adequite video memory

01:41:31 <rillian> gigabit ethernet :)

01:41:44 <rillian> and hopefully they fixed the torsion->short problem

01:41:46 <AaronSw> Hmm, I must've missed that.

01:41:52 <AaronSw> torsion?

01:42:20 <rillian> if I pick up my tibook wrong, it goes dead

01:42:30 <rillian> annoying, and scary

01:42:52 <AaronSw> Weird!

01:42:59 <rillian> don't see one

01:43:07 <rillian> sorry, wrong window

01:43:36 <rillian> anyway, there were some complaints and one of the changelog entries is a new, more rigid interior

04:23:06 <AaronSw>http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2001/10/17/strikes-back.html

04:23:06 <dc_rdfig> A: http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2001/10/17/strikes-back.html from AaronSw

04:23:15 <AaronSw> A:|Patent Wars: The W3C Strikes Back

04:23:16 <dc_rdfig> titled item A

04:23:38 <AaronSw> A:Quotes danbri and DanC from an interview here earlier.

04:23:39 <dc_rdfig> commented item A

07:02:40 * AaronSw heads off

07:08:34 <rillian> can somebody point me at a reference for the .rtx 'textstream' format mentioned in the SMIL spec?

07:37:04 * AaronSw returns

07:41:47 <AaronSw> rillian, I think it might be this: http://service.real.com/help/library/guides/realtext/realtext.htm

07:42:01 <AaronSw> now time to sleep

07:42:03 <AaronSw> c'yas

07:48:12 <rillian> AaronSw: thanks, that looks like it

07:49:22 <rillian> except they give the extension as .rt

08:58:15 <danbri> http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/library/x-xdnat.html?n-x-10181

08:58:15 <dc_rdfig> B: http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/library/x-xdnat.html?n-x-10181 from danbri

08:58:35 <danbri> B:|XML for Data : Native XML databases: a bad idea for data?

08:58:35 <danbri>

08:58:35 <dc_rdfig> titled item B

09:01:25 <danbri> B:"Columnist Kevin Williams takes a look at the pros and cons of using a native XML database to store structured information. He outlines the most common requirements for working with structured data and discusses how well native XML databases can cope with them."

09:01:26 <dc_rdfig> commented item B

09:02:13 <danbri> B:Wisely concludes: "don't throw away your relational database just yet!"

09:02:13 <dc_rdfig> commented item B

09:25:41 <danbri>http://rdfstoredemo.jrc.it/rdql/

09:25:41 <dc_rdfig> C: http://rdfstoredemo.jrc.it/rdql/ from danbri

09:26:12 <dajobe> dajobe has changed the topic to: Semantic Web Chat - http://www.w3.org/RDF/Interest/#irc

09:26:18 <danbri> C:|RDFStore does RDF query: another RDQL/Squish implementation :)

09:26:18 <dc_rdfig> titled item C

09:26:47 <danbri> C:Time for a test suite, I reckon...

09:26:48 <dc_rdfig> commented item C

09:28:52 <danbri> C:See also [semanticweb-southwest|http://groups.yahoo.com/group/semanticweb-southwest] mail [archives|http://groups.yahoo.com/group/semanticweb-southwest/messages] for Bristolians discussion syntax convergence issues.

09:28:52 <dc_rdfig> commented item C

09:30:01 <dajobe> Bristol and nearby... :)

09:31:46 <danbri> :)

09:32:30 <danbri> C:If he's got a decent Perl parser for RDQL/Squish, that'll come in handy for my Algae and RDFdb wrappers

09:32:30 <dc_rdfig> commented item C

09:35:57 <danbri> C:Hmm, I could also use this as an alternative backend to my current (Perl) SOAP service, which at moment uses EricP's Algae/Perllib system.

09:35:58 <dc_rdfig> commented item C

10:39:42 <danbri>http://www.fileangel.org/docs/DAV_2min.html

10:39:42 <dc_rdfig> D: http://www.fileangel.org/docs/DAV_2min.html from danbri

10:39:50 <danbri> D:|WebDAV in 2 Minutes

10:39:50 <dc_rdfig> titled item D

10:40:19 <danbri> D:A handy technology overview, referenced from the [Jigsaw WebDAV page|http://www.w3.org/Jigsaw/Doc/User/webdav.html]

10:40:19 <dc_rdfig> commented item D

10:43:01 <dajobe> D:More [http://www.webdav.org/|WebDAV] resources including apache module, neon C library, cadaver ftp-like client

10:43:02 <dc_rdfig> commented item D

10:46:19 <danbri>http://www.w3.org/TR/soap12-part2/#N4004D0

10:46:19 <dc_rdfig> E: http://www.w3.org/TR/soap12-part2/#N4004D0 from danbri

10:46:36 <danbri> E:|The SOAP 1.2 spec on "Polymorphic Accessors"

10:46:36 <dc_rdfig> titled item E

10:46:52 <danbri> E:For comparison with RDF datatyping discussions

10:46:52 <dc_rdfig> commented item E

10:47:13 <danbri> E:"Many languages allow accessors that can polymorphically access values of several types, each type being available at run time. A polymorphic accessor instance MUST contain an xsi:type attribute that describes the type of the actual value."

10:47:13 <dc_rdfig> commented item E

10:47:32 <danbri> E:"For example, a polymorphic accessor named "cost" with a value of type "xsd:float" would be encoded as follows [...]"

10:47:33 <dc_rdfig> commented item E

10:48:47 <danbri> E:It isn't clear how the "value type" of a SOAP accessor (edge-label / property) is declared. Using XML Schema?

10:48:47 <dc_rdfig> commented item E

12:18:14 <danbri> An idea about RDF datatyping and syntax...

12:18:57 <danbri> Could we squeeze datatyping information into RDF/XML 1.0 by using a magic attribute from the reserved xml* namespace?

12:18:58 <danbri> eg:

12:19:39 <danbri> <cost xmldt:type="util:float">23.23</cost>

12:20:12 <danbri> on the assumption that RDF parsers oughtn't to barf on xml* attributes, nor match them against existing productions in the RDF/XML grammar

12:20:53 <danbri> We'd need to persuade(?) the XML CG of the value... Just a thought, wondering if it makes sense.

12:50:42 <jang> that's why I suggested rdf:parseType

12:57:58 * Aaron-groundhog wonders whether to go to the telecon or put his head down for one more hour of sleep

12:58:14 <dajobe> sleep during the telcon

12:58:27 <dajobe> <joke/>

13:00:34 <AaronSw> It looks like you'll mostly be approvng various things, which I agree with.

13:01:39 <AaronSw> s/,//

13:01:50 <dajobe> later...

13:21:29 * AaronSw heads off

13:56:38 * AaronSw returns

14:17:27 * DanC looks around for Edd... re http://www.xmlhack.com/read.php?item=1417

14:17:29 <DanC>http://www.xmlhack.com/read.php?item=1417

14:17:30 <dc_rdfig> F: http://www.xmlhack.com/read.php?item=1417 from DanC

14:17:37 <DanC> F:|SOAP 1.2 needs you!

14:17:37 <dc_rdfig> titled item F

14:18:13 <AaronSw> Heh heh heh.

14:18:15 <DanC> F:Edd, this is just plain childish: "For those in the community interested in donating aid to multi-million dollar corporations, instructions for contributing are on the W3C's web site."

14:18:15 <dc_rdfig> commented item F

14:21:34 <DanC> hey cool... a wine KB... http://www.xmlhack.com/read.php?item=1416

14:21:52 and the RDF instance data is availiable as well :)

14:22:20 http://www.openwine.org/data.jsp

14:22:20 <dc_rdfig> G: http://www.openwine.org/data.jsp from em

14:22:20 <DanC>http://www.xmlhack.com/read.php?item=1416

14:22:21 <dc_rdfig> H: http://www.xmlhack.com/read.php?item=1416 from DanC

14:22:27 <sandro> I wonder if they've connected with the Stanford KSL wines KB, which I guess is a classic test case for reasoning.

14:22:36 <DanC> H:the [raw raw data|http://www.openwine.org/open_wine_data.xml]

14:22:36 <dc_rdfig> commented item H

14:22:51 <DanC> H:|RDF a friend of plonk

14:22:51 <dc_rdfig> titled item H

14:23:06 <DanC> H:about the [openwine project|http://www.openwine.org/index.jsp]

14:23:06 <dc_rdfig> commented item H

14:23:19 <DanC> H:let's see what cwm thinks of the data...

14:23:19 <dc_rdfig> commented item H

14:24:01 <sandro> H: compare/contrast/relate to http://www.daml.org/ontologies/76

14:24:01 <dc_rdfig> commented item H

14:24:30 <DanC> H:i.e. [a daml wine ontology|http://www.daml.org/ontologies/76]

14:24:30 <dc_rdfig> commented item H

14:24:53 <DanC> H:phtpht. xml.sax._exceptions.SAXParseException: <unknown>:3:0: xml processing instruction not at start of external entity

14:24:53 <dc_rdfig> commented item H

14:26:28 <DanC> H:cwm finds no data in there cuz there's no rdf:RDF tag.

14:26:28 <dc_rdfig> commented item H

14:28:55 hmm... seems http://www.openwine.org/open_wine_data.xml burps on redfoot parser

14:29:13 ah! yes... same problem Danc

14:29:44 * em very much enjoys redfoot... wish he had more time to play with this

14:30:01 * sandro wonders what anyone actually uses the rdf:RDF tag for.

14:30:42 <sandro> Maybe you need it for typedNodes.....

14:31:44 H: notes there is no default namespace declared, yet default classes, properties are defined

14:31:44 <dc_rdfig> commented item H

14:32:08 <sandro> Aparently they didn't follow the standard RDF checklist. :-)

14:33:02 yes, but this is a group i for one wouldn't mind helping :)

14:34:57 * sbp didn't know that there was such a thing as a "default namespace" :-)

14:58:30 * AaronSw heads off

16:00:03 <sandro> XML/RDF lets you meaningfully repeat attributes, like <x:Person x:nickname="Sandro" x:nickname="SanDan"> ... right? Is that someone that XML normally allows?

16:03:57 <sandro> (it looks like it's not, from what I can tell.)

16:04:48 <grove> AFAIK that's not well-formed XML. :)

16:07:42 <grove> ref http://www.xml.com/axml/target.html#uniqattspec

16:07:52 sandro, XML does not allow duplicate attributes

16:08:14 err.. thanks grove for digging up the reference :)

16:08:51 <sandro> Thanks muchly.

16:15:48 http://sesame.aidministrator.nl/doc/rql-babysteps.html

16:15:48 <dc_rdfig> I: http://sesame.aidministrator.nl/doc/rql-babysteps.html from em

16:15:50 <danbri> Yes, that explains some RDF oddities, like rdf:_n for Bags described using attributes.

16:15:58 I:|Babysteps in Sesame RQL

16:15:58 <dc_rdfig> titled item I

16:16:06 Iron_SpermWhale: This document is a tutorial for the RDF Query Language RQL, as it is supported by Sesame. It shows how to create basic queries and gives

16:16:06 some tips on how to create your own slightly more complex queries.

16:16:06

16:16:20 arrg... silly irc client

16:16:24 <danbri> xchat?

16:16:29 yes

16:16:36 * em curse xchat for trying to help me

16:16:56 * danbri returns to his inbox; wondering how many msgs can have arrived in 3 hrs

16:17:10 I:This document is a tutorial for the RDF Query Language RQL, as it is supported by Sesame. It shows how to create basic queries and gives some tips on how to create your own slightly more complex queries.

16:17:10 <dc_rdfig> commented item I

16:17:12 <DanC> does sesame grok xml:lang?

16:17:34 <DanC> I:does sesame grok xml:lang? i.e. can you query for the french labels in the RDFS schema for RDFS?

16:17:34 <dc_rdfig> commented item I

16:17:53 <danbri> 109 msgs / 3hrs

16:17:55 not sure yet.. digging up language case and reviewing trip notes from talking with the RQL guys was how i came abuot this

16:19:44 http://139.91.183.30:9090/RDF/publications/sigmod2000.html

16:19:44 <dc_rdfig> J: http://139.91.183.30:9090/RDF/publications/sigmod2000.html from em

16:19:55 J:|Querying Community Web Portals

16:19:56 <dc_rdfig> titled item J

16:20:16 dc_rdfig, help

16:20:33 hmm.. anyone know how to assert dc:creator in chump bot?

16:20:56 J:In this paper, we propose a declarative language suitable for querying

16:20:57 <dc_rdfig> commented item J

16:20:57 Portal Catalogs created according to the Resource Description

16:20:57 Framework (RDF) W3C standard. Our language, called RQL, relies on a

16:20:57 formal graph model, that captures the RDF modeling primitives and

16:20:57 permits the interpretation of heterogeneous descriptions by means of

16:20:57 one or more schemas.

16:21:03 <DanC> semantic-chump isn't released yet, AFAIK, ericM

16:21:43 * em thinks semanitc-chump is such a tease :)

16:21:56 <DanC> yup

16:23:19 <DanC> G:this wine data isn't quite in real RDF syntax. Any volunteers to tutor them?

16:23:19 <dc_rdfig> commented item G

16:24:23 * em has a strong desire on many levels to help the openwine.org community :)

16:27:05 * DanC works thru syntax errors in their data...

16:27:08 <DanC> sax2rdf.BadSyntax: No namespace on property attribute daml:cardinality

16:27:24 <DanC> phpht. that one's a problem in the daml spec

16:27:50 * em wonders about the engine behind openwine.org... anyone have any ideas?

16:27:52 <DanC> oops... no... just a problem in the way I set up the rdf:RDF root...

16:28:36 * DanC thinks he's got the wine data parsing as real RDF... starts wondering where to send the diffs...

16:28:58 <DanC> whee! got it to parse with cwm...

16:28:59 <SethR> i havent seen this chumped yet ... so here goes

16:29:04 <SethR>http://www.cetis.ac.uk/content/20010927163232/viewArticle

16:29:05 <dc_rdfig> K: http://www.cetis.ac.uk/content/20010927163232/viewArticle from SethR

16:29:44 <SethR> K:| The next wave: CETIS interviews Mikael Nilsson about the Edutella project

16:29:44 <dc_rdfig> titled item K

16:30:38 <SethR> K: reads like the Scintific American article on semantic web ... but looks like its closer to workable

16:30:39 <dc_rdfig> commented item K

16:31:02 <SethR> K: also looks strangely like a sembrowser :)

16:31:03 <dc_rdfig> commented item K

16:32:17 K: We hope to make Edutella a fundamental part of the central JXTA services, such as JXTA Search. Enabling RDF searches within JXTA have clear benefits for the whole JXTA project, and they have shown great interest in Edutella.

16:32:18 <dc_rdfig> commented item K

16:32:32 excellent! :)

16:33:06 * em notes his JXTA contacts have moved on... anyone here working with them?

16:33:33 - http://edutella.jxta.org/

16:33:47 http://edutella.jxta.org/

16:33:47 <dc_rdfig> L: http://edutella.jxta.org/ from em

16:33:53 L:This project is a multi-staged effort to scope, specify, architect and implement

16:33:53 <dc_rdfig> commented item L

16:33:53 an RDF-based metadata infrastructure for JXTA.

16:34:03 L:an RDF-based metadata infrastructure for JXTA.

16:34:03 <dc_rdfig> commented item L

16:34:26 L:|RDF-based Metadata Infrastructure for P2P Applications

16:34:27 <dc_rdfig> titled item L

16:35:02 * em thinks he could catalog sites all day given the chance... goes back to work

16:36:19 * em notes to himself to update RDF page to reflect these tools

16:36:20 <DanC> G:figured out their data had just a few problems. sent them an [explanation and diffs|http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2001Oct/0019.html]

16:36:21 <dc_rdfig> commented item G

16:38:37 <SethR> the biggest problem facing query languages is the solution of the problem of not knowing what is in the data prior to quering it

16:42:16 <danbri> that strikes me as a problem for applications and for people, rather than for the languages (or their designers)

16:43:26 * danbri trawls the W3C SWAD archives for all his previous RDF<->SOAP stuff, to make public

16:43:36 <danbri> Most of its in www-archive already I think

16:43:46 <SethR> ok, the solution layers on top of the query languages .... thing is you can't make a query of RDF, unless you know some the exact subject or propery ... so how do you discover those?

16:43:57 <danbri> Libby's just got Apache's Axis stuff working, so Java RDF query server a distinct possibility...

16:44:47 <danbri> sure, there's no point in shouting into a cave unless you've an idea of what might be in there... But you needn't know _exactly_ what to expect.

16:45:00 <SethR> has anybody installed conzilla yet ?

16:45:02 <danbri> Proding around using rdf:type queries is one way of exploring the data

16:45:06 <danbri> not me

16:45:34 <danbri> Aaron, you around?

16:46:29 <SethR>http://conzilla.sourceforge.net/

16:46:29 <dc_rdfig> M: http://conzilla.sourceforge.net/ from SethR

16:49:34 <SethR> M:! Conzilla ... a sembrowser ... isa combination of context/concept/content and Mozilla

16:49:35 <dc_rdfig> commented item M

16:50:09 <SethR> M:| Conzilla

16:50:09 <dc_rdfig> titled item M

16:50:49 <SethR> hi sean

16:51:16 <sbp> hi Seth

16:51:35 <sbp> I've just been writing a Py version of the SAWG-D

16:51:40 <sbp> er... SWAG-D

16:51:53 <SethR> you mean the swag dictionary ?

16:51:57 <sbp> yep!

16:52:04 <SethR> Kewl !

16:52:39 <sbp> it's not working brilliantly yet, but it allows anyone to upload data (as NTriples), and we can delete contexts, and add special triples

16:52:42 <SethR> did you see where they are considering going to a dictionary approach over at SUO ?

16:52:52 <sbp> yep, that's what inspired me to write this

16:53:01 <sbp> I'm hoping that Aaron or someone can develop it

16:53:24 <SethR> does it run on a NT server ?

16:53:31 <sbp> at the moment, we're using some odd templating language through TCL over an Oracle backend... expensive

16:53:40 <sbp> The Py thing will run on any OS which supports Python

16:53:47 <sbp> including NT (I use WinMe)

16:54:28 <SethR> but in what db is the data contained ?

16:54:40 <sbp> it's contained in a Python database

16:54:48 <sbp> exportable as NTriples, or NQuads

16:55:18 <SethR> does this Python database thingy scale up to millions of triples ?

16:56:28 <SethR> hey ,.. when did we get NQuads ... url ??

16:56:47 <sbp> I'm not sure. It pickles the store, but I've not tested it on huge amounts of triples. I can think of a way of optimizing the store, and I know that there have been huge scale developments tried with Python

16:56:58 <sbp> NQuads... er... try www-rdf-logic (I'll look it up)

16:57:50 <sbp> here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-logic/2001Aug/0007

16:58:01 <SethR> Jena has interfaced with BerkeleyDb for a large scalable data storage

16:58:30 <tim> Anyone here use python on windows, with the nice GUI interface (not the Tk one)?

16:58:34 <xbill> BerkeleyDb? Scalable?

16:59:12 <SethR> yes definitely scalabel :)

16:59:20 <sbp> I use Py on Windows, but I'm not sure what GUI interface you mean

16:59:31 <DanC> sigh... more subtle bugs in the wine data...

16:59:32 <DanC> :Fermentation a daml:DatatypeProperty;

16:59:33 <DanC> rdfs:domain :WineIssue-Brand,

16:59:33 <DanC> :WineIssue-Domain;

16:59:38 <dajobe> berkeleydb: yes, I've got 10s millions of triples in mine

16:59:44 <DanC> i.e. they're misusing rdfs:domain. WHERE'S THE PRIMER?

16:59:48 <sbp> Gotta run

17:00:02 <dajobe> yeah, why wasn't primer on the agenda

17:00:50 cause the primer component deliverables were due today and we need time to integrate these into a more coherent whole

17:00:54 <tim> spb, There is one which it is easy to find which is based on Tk - the icons in the window taitlebars are all red. There is another GUI I just broke which is much easier to use, pythonwin tends to be used for both.

17:01:37 <DanC> is there any draft primer matieral that talks about how to use rdfs:domain yet?

17:01:40 and as far as rdfs:domain... Schema spec no?

17:01:57 <DanC> no, not the schema spec. I don't want to send newbies into the schema spec.

17:02:04 <tim> sbp, (Does your shell window call itself "Interactive window" or "Python shell"?)

17:02:06 no draft primer stuff on how to use rdfs:range rdfs:domain

17:02:09 <dajobe> or newbies to the syntax spec either :)

17:02:28 <dajobe> unless they are new parser/serialiser writers

17:02:29 <SethR> Does CWM use context as the fourth element of the NQuad ??

17:03:01 <DanC> I think the RDF Core WG is perhaps not a good place to develop a primer. We're getting material on the abstract model and reification... stuff that I don't want within 10 miles of the primer.

17:03:32 <tim> Yes, cwm uses the fourth bit of hte quad (actually the zeroth) as the context - a pointer to the Formula in which the triple appears.

17:03:42 <DanC> the guys working on this wine thing are *exactly* the audience I want this primer for. (or the guy doing an email schema a few weeks ago...)(

17:03:51 yep

17:03:56 schema in a week

17:04:17 but there will be some details that will have to be punted to reicher specs

17:04:26 <danbri> Send them to the MCF Tutorial

17:04:28 <SethR> Does CWM also use statement ID internally to reify statements ??

17:04:39 where we draw the line is going to be tough

17:05:08 actually... i thought about s/MCF/RDF in the MCF Tutorial and starting from there... Danbri, you did this one no?

17:05:17 <danbri> I did...

17:05:21 <tim> No, cwm internally reifies nothing. It does not use statement Ids.

17:05:33 * em recalls this actually was still quite a useful doc

17:05:36 <danbri> Actually it was the old MCF white paper. I'll dig it out.

17:05:42 yes please

17:05:48 <danbri>http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-MCF-XML/MCF-tutorial.html

17:05:49 <dc_rdfig> N: http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-MCF-XML/MCF-tutorial.html from danbri

17:05:54 <danbri> N:|MCF in XML Tutorial

17:05:55 <dc_rdfig> titled item N

17:06:08 <SethR> so a reified statement to CWM is just a single statement context ?

17:06:59 <danbri> N:See also [MCF/XML Spec|http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-MCF-XML/], which [introduces domain and range|http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-MCF-XML/#sec2.1] quite nicely.

17:07:00 <dc_rdfig> commented item N

17:08:27 <danbri> N:And the old MCF white paper: here's a [hacked version|http://rdfweb.org/people/danbri/2001/05/mcf-rdf/rdf.html] with s/MCF/RDF/ for curiousity' sake...

17:08:28 <dc_rdfig> commented item N

17:08:45 <danbri> There you go Eric... How's it read?

17:09:35 <danbri> reads like Guha...

17:11:07 :)

17:11:16 looks like a good start to me...

17:11:45 <danbri> there are of course technical differences. MCF has layering more explicitly in there. Or at least the older Apple version did.

17:12:18 yes... but the audience target is right, and i think a good chuck of the content makes sense still

17:12:54 * em goes back to work

17:13:04 thanks danbri for digging this back up

17:13:17 <danbri> talking of audiences, that MIT SemWeb interview was quoting Guha as a SW sceptic, though this paper to me is the same pitch. Wasn't clear whether he'd changed his mind, or just didn't like the slogan.

17:13:43 he was misquoted... he called me shortly after... he was talking about somehting with Cyc

17:14:19 <SethR> shucks .. i really did want conformation on that one point .... Is a reified statement in CWM really just a context containing a single statement ??

17:14:20 "I'm building services around this stuff for cripes sake!" - guha

17:14:20 * danbri hopes they fix it (else we'll have to use Annotea...)

17:15:01 <tim> He mailed me and apologized for the way Tech Review had misrepresented it. Tech Review are not famous AFAIK for forming accurate balanced opinions and representing then fairly.

17:16:00 <tim> Seth, what do you mean by a reified statement? A set of four statements? If so, it is a set of four statements.

17:16:18 <tim> CWM doens't use reification to represent formulae internally.

17:17:09 <SethR> i mean the thing that has identity as a single sgtatement such that one can talk about it ... something to use as a subject or an object of another arc

17:20:08 <tim> I never use that. Yes, this is in violation of the RDF spec I suppose. But I find that it complicates life.

17:20:52 <SethR> to what does 'that' in your prior response refer?

17:20:55 <tim> It adds a whole new column, a whole new dimension to the system which I've never needed.

17:21:13 <tim> I've never used IDs on individual statements.

17:21:42 <tim> N3 syntax doesn't have a way of doing it.

17:21:45 * danbri doesn't see any violation of the rdf spec; nobody forces databases to keep track of statement IDs. You're free to throw stuff out, use native/proprietary grouping mechanisms etc.

17:22:33 <SethR> well ok ... i see its not necessary if we can talk about {s p o} as out subject .. then that context node is just the same thing as the RDF spec reified statement was

17:22:43 <tim> If I add it in, then the whole model gets more complicated. For me, the formula, which is a set of statements, and is the context of any statement, is a simple and nice concept.

17:23:31 <tim> Yes, whenever you might feel like using a special syntax for a statment, I just use a formula with one statement in it.

17:24:07 <tim> Like in python, there is no "character" type. You just use a string with length 1.

17:24:29 * tim thinks he has found the phantom GUI http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Downloads/ActivePython/Extensions/Win32all

17:25:14 <danbri> What're you after? Python GUI stuff instead of Tk? There's a Gtk+ library somewhere...

17:25:20 <SethR> ok i think i see it ... but why do you pull back from just saying "yes a context containing a single statement " **IS** what people have been calling a RDF reified statement (that is the reification quad four statement thingy) ?

17:26:19 <tim> Danbri, Win32all from Mark Hammond has the "Pythonwin" developemnt environment which I was using.

17:26:32 <danbri> ah, right

17:28:10 <tim> Seth, it ain't for me to say what other people mean. Especially when they talk about reification! Keep well clear of it, misself.

17:28:10 <DanC> tim, is something like the swap/pim/calendar schema a rm:program or not? how about the roadmap?

17:28:43 <DanC> in a way, a schema is more like a spec. in other ways, it's more like a piece of software.

17:28:44 <SethR> ok .. thanks tim, I needed that :)

17:29:43 <tim> Dan, I reckon rm:program I would use for software in general, schemata included.

17:29:58 <danbri> DanC, for the roadmap can you hook that up to www-rdf-calendar (http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2001/07/25/rdfcalendar.html etc) in the plan

17:31:26 <DanC> how do you mean, danbri? what's the relationship?

17:31:51 <DanC> hmm... I have a hard time thinking of a schema as software.

17:31:54 <danbri> Just if you were documenting W3C work on a pim/calendar schema, to make www-rdf-calendar closeby findable

17:32:50 <DanC> I don't have a :closeby relationship in this thing, danbri.

17:33:00 <danbri> rdfs:seeAlso ?

17:33:09 <danbri> no worries

17:33:11 <sandro> is there really a need to differentiate between specs and programs? If you do, you're bound to get tripped up by machine-readable specs.

17:33:15 <DanC> I make seeAlso notes to myself, but they don't show up in the diagrams.

17:33:21 <danbri> 'k

17:33:34 <tim> The www-rdf-calendar group delivers calenaring in general I suppose

17:33:56 <DanC> danbri, calendaring is not in the plan; i.e. we haven't promised anybody we'll do it by any deadline, as far as I know.

17:34:14 <tim> Of course Retsina is an actual product, make by hte CMU group, members of www-rdf-calendar.

17:34:56 <DanC> er.. I'm not trying to make a plan for the whole world here.

17:35:40 <DanC> re need to differentiate: well, sorta; but I have gotten pretty far being sloppy about it.

17:36:30 <sandro> danbri, Can you just start making your own RDF file, which can be graph-merged with Dan's to make a plan for a larger part of the world?

17:36:41 * DanC was just gonna say that; thanks, sandro

17:37:16 <sandro> I've been thinking about that approach for adding a whole bunch more detail to the part of the diagram I'm focussed on.

17:37:22 * DanC wonders if DaveB would be willing to connect the stuff in his resource guide into this worldview.

17:37:40 <dajobe> maybe

17:37:50 <DanC> go for it, sandro! meanwhile, I'm splitting swad-chart.n3 into chunks.

17:38:31 <DanC> dajobe, do you have any RDF version of your guide? I guess you have it in RSS form?

17:39:03 <dajobe> sort of in RSS, not in RDF yet

17:39:59 <dajobe> actually that doesn't make much sense. I can produce an RSS 1.0 view of recent items which is RDF/XML of course

17:41:06 <sbp> <tim> sbp, (Does your shell window call itself "Interactive window" or "Python shell"?)

17:41:20 <sbp> Python Shell: but I tend to use command line/batch files

17:43:17 * sbp reviews the NQuads discussion...

17:44:35 <sbp> Aaron argued with me that statement IDs would be useful to have in the language, to assert triples in odd places... but I'm not so sure. I certainly think there's a brighter future for context flags, especially w.r.t. rules/inferences

17:44:54 <sbp> plus, they're good for database management

17:45:26 <sbp> but then you get into root context/rule context debates...

17:46:35 <sbp> Seth, are you still here? How do you do it in SEM pents?

17:47:26 * sbp had better do some more work...

17:47:32 <sbp> c'ya

17:48:44 <DanC> tim, do you believe that { :s a rm:done; rm:needs :o } log:implies { :o a rm:done }?

17:49:55 <DanC> also, is the roadmap done, or just prototyped? should living documents like that be typed as rm:done?

17:52:21 * AaronSw returns

17:54:38 <DanC> also, tim, I'm introducing terms like :due and :after; should I put those in the rm: vocabulary?

17:57:12 <dajobe> DanC: I've made one big RSS 1.0, RDF/XML file if that helps: http://www.ilrt.bristol.ac.uk/discovery/rdf/resources/index.rdf

17:57:41 <DanC> umm... I guess it's a step in the right direction...

17:57:52 <DanC> do you maintain identifiers for the items?

17:58:02 <dajobe> well...

17:58:05 <dajobe> mostly

18:01:08 <AaronSw> danbri, still looking for me?

18:01:38 * SethR wonders where the chat logs are in mozilla .94

18:02:02 <DanC> have you thought about capturing all the info from the HTML view in RDF so that you could regenerate the HTML, dajobe? how did you make the big RSS file? scrape the HTML?

18:02:18 <dajobe> thought only a little; yes

18:03:28 <dajobe> steps along the road include adding around bits to pull out

18:04:09 <DanC> btw... dajobe, my action (in the SemWeb CG) to ask you about top 10 developer resources for /RDF/ is still outstanding. Had any cycles for that?

18:04:22 <dajobe> I was thinking about it today actually

18:04:23 <SethR> Aaron, did you know about Conzilla ?

18:04:39 <AaronSw> Nope.

18:04:52 <SethR> check it out .. it's way cool

18:04:57 <dajobe> DanC: I was mostly thinking in terms of implementation languages and best tools from that point

18:09:16 <DanC> makes sense.

18:09:35 <DanC> is stuff like that comparison of triple-stores still worth a read by most developers?

18:10:55 <danbri> AaronSW, yes... I was going to ask about the SOAP-ntriples tests that you started. I'm thinking about making the ntriples rather than n3 versions the one that are edited/polished, to save from fixing up cwm-isms in the resulting triples. Would you be OK with that.

18:11:09 <AaronSw> Of course.

18:11:27 <AaronSw> It was just that I can't write N-Triples by hand very easily

18:11:29 <danbri> ok, cool

18:11:36 <AaronSw> so cwm was a good way for me to get them done quickly

18:11:38 <dajobe> DanC: that, probably more as background reading

18:11:45 <danbri> me neither, but we're most of the way there now, so it should just be add/subtract a few

18:12:25 <danbri> re top 10, if I had a vote, I'd use it on Tim Bray's 'what is RDF' piece, http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2001/01/24/rdf.html

18:12:36 <dajobe> I hadn't got to articles

18:12:52 <danbri> ...now available in spanish too

18:12:53 <dajobe> but several of AaronSw's and sbp's on list

18:13:02 <danbri> sure, I'm just barging in with random aside

18:14:08 <DanC> yes, danbri, that's #1 at http://www.w3.org/RDF/#overview

18:14:17 <DanC> but I'm asking about stuff for developers.

18:14:29 <DanC> i.e. to prune http://www.w3.org/RDF/#developers

18:15:49 <danbri> OK. A good read for developers too fwiw

18:17:27 <danbri>http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2001/05/23/jena.html

18:17:27 <dc_rdfig> O: http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2001/05/23/jena.html from danbri

18:17:51 <danbri> O:|Using the Jena API to Process RDF, by Joe Verzulli (May 23, 2001)

18:17:52 <dc_rdfig> titled item O

18:18:41 <danbri> O:"There has been growing interest in the Resource Description Framework (RDF) and a number of tools and libraries have been developed for processing it. This article describes one such library, Jena, a Java API for processing RDF"

18:18:41 <dc_rdfig> commented item O

18:18:46 <DanC> danbri, if you're in the mood, wanna take a whack at /RDF/#developers yourself?

18:19:53 <danbri> I'm off for food in a minute, but you got me thinking so I'm slapping a few URLs into the chump. See how they compare to what Dave (and others?) reckon are 'top 10'...

18:20:02 * danbri likes the XML.com stuff generally

18:20:04 <danbri>http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2000/08/09/rdfdb/

18:20:05 <dc_rdfig> P: http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2000/08/09/rdfdb/ from danbri

18:21:12 <AaronSw> Hmm... I want to try out Conzilla, but it's completely unauthenticated and wants full access to my machine.

18:21:25 <AaronSw> At times like this I wish folks had implemented the Principle of Least Power.

18:21:31 <danbri> P:|Putting RDF to Work, by Edd Dumbill (August 09, 2000)

18:21:32 <dc_rdfig> titled item P

18:22:12 <SethR> oh yee of little trust

18:22:37 <danbri> ...and Bijan's thing for Prolog programmers... We're going to end up creation a table-o-contents for xml.com :)

18:23:02 <danbri> hmm http://www.xml.com/metadata/ is a bit random. wonder how they classify stuff

18:25:15 <AaronSw> Conzilla makes me dizzy like gZigZag did.

18:25:20 <AaronSw> But not as much

18:25:45 <SethR> actually, Aaron, you should read Mikeal's interview i chumped earlier .. the too itself is probably early alpha if that

18:26:24 <AaronSw> Yeah, I skimmed it -- I'll go look more carefully.

18:26:45 <AaronSw> I'm betatesting Mark Bernstein's new app "Ceres" which seems a lot like this.

18:27:14 <AaronSw>http://eastgate.com/Development/

18:27:14 <dc_rdfig> Q: http://eastgate.com/Development/ from AaronSw

18:27:26 <SethR> what excites me about it is that is is going to be connedted to p2p .... were gonna find that semantic cloud .. or bust

18:27:26 <AaronSw> Q:|Eastgate Development Peekhole: Ceres

18:27:26 <dc_rdfig> titled item Q

18:29:03 * sandro doesn't want to be outside during a semantic cloudburst.

18:29:15 <SethR> :)

18:29:34 <SethR> or rather ;-)

18:29:35 <AaronSw> It's raining triples!

18:29:45 <sandro> ewwwwwwww.

18:29:48 <SethR> or quads .. me likes them better

18:31:33 <AaronSw> Yeah, quads -- with statement IDs ;)

18:32:35 <SethR> Nope! .. quads with context uri ... see prior discussion with TimBl today ... this is a major switcheroo in my thinking

18:32:39 <sandro> It's very hard to smoothly connect character grammars and XML grammars, like to allow only element tags matching certain patterns. Grumble.

18:33:12 <AaronSw> Hmm, I think Jeremy was struggling with that too in Snail.

18:33:28 <sandro> Pointer to his solution?

18:33:34 <AaronSw> He had to use a system of variables which seemed a little ugly to me...

18:33:48 <sandro> ah. ugly no good. :-)

18:33:58 <sandro> I can do ugly.

18:34:21 <AaronSw> http://www-uk.hpl.hp.com/people/jjc/snail/rules.html

18:34:33 <sandro> thanks

18:35:50 <AaronSw> aaaargh Oracle died!

18:36:10 <SethR> get a good db like Berkely

18:36:51 <AaronSw> Berkely isn't even a real DB, I don't think.

18:36:54 * sandro thinks that's like comparing an Arabian (horse) with a Ferrari (car).

18:36:59 <AaronSw> I'm trying to switch to Postgres tho.

18:37:33 * DanC liked what he saw of postgress, last time he looked into it.

18:38:14 <AaronSw> s/real DB/real RDBMS/

18:38:42 <DanC> there's a quicken work-a-like implemented in postgress (well, PHP using postgress). works pretty good. I was able to load about 7 years of quicken data into it and get at it at fairly comfortable speed.

18:38:44 <AaronSw> Yep, Postgres has hit an 80/20 point and left out Oracle's ability to completely irritate you every moment you use it.

18:39:36 <DanC> hmm... trying to fit these SWAD diagrams into manageable sizes... for printing or presentation.

18:40:06 <DanC> (I should probably be preparing for my python/zope talks... I'm nowhere on those. yikes!)

18:40:42 <DanC> I'm losing. I think I'm gonna get them into sort of consistent state and give up...

18:41:07 <SethR> problem is that everybody can't have a Oracle db sitting on their desktop like Aaron gets

18:41:58 * DanC notes the way people deal with fuzziness in language... we all understood "not everyone can..." when he said "everyone can't".

18:42:43 <AaronSw> It's not on my desktop -- if it was I'd really go insane. Instead it's in the cloud.

18:42:57 <AaronSw> But everyone can have Postgres on their desktop... or at least Gadfly.

18:43:10 <AaronSw> So I'm aiming at an RDBMS.

18:43:50 <DanC> gadfly is pretty amazing... to think what one guy did. I dunno how it performs at scale, but it's fun to study!

18:44:07 <SethR> me thinks RDBMS is overkiss if all you want to do is retrieve quads

18:44:16 <SethR> i meant overkill

18:45:19 <AaronSw> Perhaps so.

18:45:20 <SethR> i mean that is just what quads do for us ... they collaps all those tables running around into just one table :)

18:46:02 <AaronSw> Well, if BerkelyDB is a bottleneck for you then can always fix it.

18:47:05 <sandro> DanC, what the quicken/PHP thing? Are you actually using it, or still using quicken?

18:47:37 <DanC> haven't completely switched to it... I think it's called saCASH. a sourceforge project.

18:47:51 <DanC> I started XHTML-izing its output.

18:48:10 <DanC> and fixing some problems with split transactions.

18:48:18 <DanC> never sent my patches in, though.

18:50:10 * DanC discovers saCASH is still running on my desktop machine.

18:50:56 <sandro> Interesting.

18:52:01 <DanC>http://www.darpa.mil/ito/psum2001/K535-0.html

18:52:02 <dc_rdfig> R: http://www.darpa.mil/ito/psum2001/K535-0.html from DanC

18:52:43 <DanC> R:Semantic Web Development, summary of MIT DAML project, 2001

18:52:43 <dc_rdfig> commented item R

18:53:06 <DanC> R:I transcribed it into [rdf/n3|http://www.w3.org/2000/01/sw/damlK535.n3]

18:53:06 <dc_rdfig> commented item R

18:53:41 <sandro> Nice, Dan.

18:53:42 <DanC> R:anybody wanna see if the resulting [how/why diagram|http://www.w3.org/2000/01/sw/damlK535.svg] makes sense?

18:53:42 <dc_rdfig> commented item R

18:54:21 <DanC> R:|Semantic Web Development, summary of MIT DAML project, 2001

18:54:21 <dc_rdfig> titled item R

18:55:46 <DanC> R:crud... some pieces aren't showing up in this version of the diagram...

18:55:47 <dc_rdfig> commented item R

18:56:19 <sandro> Are any of the circles supposed to be clickable?

18:56:32 <AaronSw> What's Annotea D2?

18:56:45 <DanC> annotea release for DAML FY2

18:57:00 <SethR> dan, when are we gonna be able to acess svg's in mozilla ?

18:57:11 <AaronSw> When you implement it. ;-)

18:57:13 <DanC> why do you ask me, SethR?

18:57:25 <SethR> cause you just posted one

18:58:02 <sandro> See http://www.google.com/search?q=mozilla+svg&btnG=Google+Search

18:58:32 <DanC> I use Amaya and/or sodipodi to look at SVG docs.

18:58:38 <AaronSw> SethR, see http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=26186

18:58:52 <AaronSw> builds at http://www.croczilla.com/svg/

18:59:04 <SethR> google scores again

18:59:48 <DanC> D:fixed missing bubbles. damlK535.svg is at 1.2 now

18:59:48 <dc_rdfig> commented item D

19:00:34 <AaronSw> brb...

19:00:41 * AaronSw heads off

19:01:23 * AaronSw returns

19:02:58 <sandro> The Amaya I have installed (V4.3) doesn't handle many of croczilla's test cases...

19:03:19 <AaronSw> Uh oh.

19:03:25 <AaronSw> Hmm, no #amaya.

19:03:44 <DanC> did you know the SVG support in Amaya is specifically developed to handle output from dot?

19:03:44 <AaronSw> Does the Amaya group have an IRC channel hangout?

19:03:59 <DanC> doubt it, AaronSw. it's 9pm or so there anyway.

19:04:07 <AaronSw> Where is "there"?

19:04:16 <DanC> grenoble, France.

19:04:34 <AaronSw> Ah, didn't know the team was geographically centralized.

19:04:56 <AaronSw> Hmm, these test cases don't trigger SVG display in my browser.

19:04:59 <DanC> most of the Amaya development happens in grenoble.

19:08:08 <danbri> There's a problem with Amaya-authored SVG if you're trying to view it in Adobe's viewer. Amaya doesn't add width/height or something in all the right places.

19:08:12 * danbri owes a bug report

19:09:10 <danbri> For no obvious reason, I find myself writing a brief note on the notion of 'striping', and how it helped me u/stand RDF's freaky XML syntax. I'll give up in a minute and ping it to www-archive.

19:09:55 <DanC> tim, I've got a how/why diagram of just the daml project summary; would you please tke a look? (see http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/index.html)

19:10:29 <DanC> I remember when I got the 'aha' about striping. I have since come to believe it's evil.

19:11:10 <danbri> the striping design is evil, perhaps. But the word is a saviour. I'm trying to figure out how to colour in some markup examples to illustrate it.

19:11:18 <danbri> in amaya...

19:12:39 <tim> Chemical Markup Language is XML and when you look at it, striped, it seemed to me.

19:13:19 <tim> I agree it is evil.

19:13:52 * em remembers CML discussions from early CORE (Chemical Online Retrieval Exteriment) days

19:14:22 <DanC> EricM, have you looked at the DAML project summary, comparing the text form with the diagram?

19:14:50 you mean http://www.darpa.mil/ito/psum2001/K535-0.html and your diagram?

19:15:14 <DanC> yup

19:15:42 <DanC> I've got a diagram of just the stuff in that daml summary; (chumped it)

19:15:53 <tim> The diagram seems to use cwm for everything, but I should blindfolf could become a replacement in many roles.

19:15:54 only briefly... just to see how you were codifying this in N3... looked to me like a fairly complete representation

19:16:22 <DanC> yes, tim, sandro noticed that... in the text version.

19:16:31 <tim> Not to mentio Euler, etc. I suppose this is just MIT-based work if you are looking at our DAML funding.

19:17:26 there were a few things that seemed to be missing... query

19:17:27 to remote systems, hopefully using DAML-Services and XML/Protocols.

19:17:57 i didn't recall seeing this on the diagram...

19:18:03 * em goes to look again

19:18:28 <DanC> missing from which, em? text or diagram?

19:18:39 diagram

19:18:40 <tim> Well, if Sandro will commit to making blindfold do certain things, then I think that the system would be much stronger, with duplicate building blocks. It would also be a (tada!) test of interoperability for the langauges which emerge.

19:19:17 * em see's this in text...

19:19:25 :remoteQuery a :FY2; dc:description """We plan to extend the cwm tool to delegate certain forms of query to remote systems, hopefully using DAML-Services and XML/Protocols."""; u:label "remote query"; rm:needs :cwm-rules; # alternatives? blindfold? rm:prototypes :DAML-S, :rdfXMLP. :DAML-S u:label "DAML-Services"; a rm:external; rm:needs :

19:19:25 daml_oil.

19:19:28 eek!

19:19:30 <DanC> remote query is right in the middle, under DAML FY2

19:19:42 ah! now i see it

19:20:04 was looking for DAML-services o XML/Protocols

19:20:14 * em thinks the n3 is a bit earier to read

19:20:39 <tim> I agree now it would be better to distinguish programs from schemas.

19:20:40 <DanC> the DAML-S bubble is right above the "remote query" bubble

19:20:52 --> http://potlach.org:8000/view?subject=file%3a/home/connolly/w3ccvs/WWW/2000/01/sw/swad-chart%23remoteQuery

19:20:56 * tim wanted N3 to be readable but not that readable ! ;-)

19:21:47 * em thinks adding a few more vocabularies to this allow for another interesting way of navigating the plan

19:21:50 <DanC> oops... the green arrow in the key is goofy... should connect a scenario to a piece of software

19:22:27 <sandro> Tim, I'd certainly like to make blindfold serve as a backup & interoperability test for cwm; I'm not sure it makes sense for me to commit to that yet, though.

19:22:43 <DanC> I'm afraid I'm doing a bit of copy-and-paste programming; I have my own howwhy.n3 which is a branch of timbl's roadmap/style

19:23:21 * timbl-lap hates it when mIRC throws the text to date away because the connection glitched.

19:23:27 hmm.. i need to hook back up the n3toxml translator... danc, you don't provide rdf/xml schemas of these namespaces and this is the only thing my tool knows how to read at this time (sigh)

19:24:16 arrg... 404 on http://www.w3.org/2001/04/roadmap/vocab

19:24:16 <sandro> [repeat] Tim, I'd certainly like to make blindfold serve as a backup & interoperability test for cwm; I'm not sure it makes sense for me to commit to that yet, though.

19:24:18 <DanC> er... I think I'm publishing rdf/xml versions of everything, no?

19:24:39 * SethR wanted Semenglish to be readable but readable :)

19:24:40 dosen't look like it...

19:24:49 <timbl-lap> em, I had that problemusing your tool. I had to generate .rdf files and check them into CVS to publish them :-(

19:24:57 <DanC> er... of everything I have in .n3 form. roadmap/vocab has been 404 since I started. I noted that (@@) along the way.

19:25:15 no http://www.w3.org/2001/02pd/gv.rdf only n3

19:25:32 timbl-lap... yes, I only have rdf/xml parser at this time

19:25:48 <DanC> er... gv.n3 isn't used for anthing

19:26:12 <DanC> the "truth" for the gv vocabulary is in rdf2dot.xsl, unfortunately.

19:26:14 <timbl-lap> sandro, cool, lets chat about what it would take and what stage with respect to doing something one commits to do it!

19:26:17 <timbl-lap> :)

19:27:09 DanC, http://potlach.org:8000/view?subject=http%3a//www.w3.org/2001/04/roadmap/vocab%23needs has a gv property

19:27:14 <timbl-lap> Need an (rdf2dot.xsl)2n3.xsl

19:28:12 <DanC> the gv vocabulary is used all over the place. it's just the schema (gv.n3) that isn't used.

19:28:28 <DanC> quite, tim

19:28:55 <DanC> or: 2rdf

19:29:34 <DanC> y'know what's a pain? when you have one big happy .n3 file, and you split it in two, and you gotta go and find all the common terms and patch them up.

19:29:50 <sandro> tim, that seems an appropriate swad meeting topic, yes?

19:30:18 <sandro> common terms, DanC?

19:31:16 <DanC> I mean: everything lived in swad-chart.n3. Then I split out the daml stuff into damlK535.n3. Now there are a bunch of dangling references in swad-chart.n3 that need to point into the daml thingy.

19:32:49 <sandro> Don't you just include both files when you're doing the whole thing anyway?

19:33:28 <SethR> dan, why not put the files in a db and have the db output the file you want?

19:34:08 * sbp grabs the latest CWM. Notes that many people have been confused by the refactoring...

19:35:22 <DanC> yes, I include both files... but if I call something :foo in both files, those are different :foo's

19:35:30 <sbp> heh: Llyn. Nice Welsh theme going there

19:35:46 <DanC> SethR, cuz the db doesn't have a DWIM button.

19:36:07 <SethR> wich is?

19:36:13 <DanC> Do What I Mean

19:36:20 danc, i've gone the path of renaming :foo to ev:foo and defining a common 'erics varaible namespace'

19:36:51 <SethR> well it should have a select context and saveAs button ... doensn't it?

19:36:56 <DanC> variables are easy... those *are* local to a file. it's constants that are shared across files that are kind of a pain.

19:37:35 <sbp> grmpgprmgh; 403: http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/llyn.py Hooray for CVS!

19:38:05 <DanC> but seth, the stuff was in one context (swad-chart.n3). I manually extracted the stuff that is known to daml, by carefully studying some prose text. You've got a database engine that can do that?

19:38:45 * SethR blushes he doent have it yet

19:39:29 <timbl-lap> (Em, it is a cooltool, but then it does put URLs in hyour face .... how about using the label as a label, with the URI as a hover tip?)

19:39:37 <sandro> DanC, why don't you just have the default @prefix of both files be the same?

19:39:40 <DanC> it's brain-dead simple to tell the computer to merge the two contexts, now that I've got them split... *provided* they use common terms.

19:39:40 <timbl-lap> SAndro, SWAD meeting, yes.

19:39:49 <DanC> sandro, that's evil.

19:40:03 <sandro> Really? Hm.

19:40:26 <DanC> that's like C programming: one big namespace. no thanks. I like to be explicit about when I'm importing stuff.

19:40:37 <timbl-lap> DanC: Your mistake it that you should define the :foo namespace the same in each file.

19:40:41 timbl-lap: a human readable label shows up when you load the schema of the data

19:40:55 <timbl-lap> O I C

19:41:18 <timbl-lap> Which of course it could do recurisively automatically....

19:41:26 and i they need to be (right now) Rdf schemas rdf/xml

19:42:10 <AaronSw> em, want to run it thru n3tordf?

19:42:16 yes, i'm testing some auto-robot-load code right now that (given permission) will go and download the schemas if they're encountered but not currently registered

19:42:28 n2tordf... yes, this is the short fix

19:43:10 AaronSw, can you give me a URL for the gv.n3 schema in rdf/xml?

19:43:17 * timbl-lap fixes access http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/llyn.py,access

19:43:25 <sbp> thanks, Tim

19:43:26 <AaronSw> what's the url in n3 again?

19:43:51 - http://www.w3.org/2001/02pd/gv.n3

19:44:09 <sbp> Hmm... where'd notation3.DAML_LISTS run off to?

19:44:24 <AaronSw> em, http://swag.webns.net/n3tordf?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2001%2F02pd%2Fgv.n3&from=n3

19:44:37 thanks!

19:44:56 * em notes that danc dosent use a lot of human readable lables in these declarations

19:44:57 <AaronSw> sure

19:45:16 <timbl-lap> DanC, you don't have to use one big namespace, just one medium-sized namespace. Its ok to share one across a set of tools.

19:45:20 <DanC> where, EricM?

19:46:05 <DanC> er... your schema validation stuff assumes one file, one namespace, no, timbl?

19:46:15 gv.n3 namespace

19:46:19 * timbl-lap installs new Pythinwin and finds it fails to launch just like te old version. rats.

19:46:29 <DanC> as I said, EricM, gv.n3 isn't used.

19:46:45 <SethR>http://suo.ieee.org/email/msg06857.html

19:46:46 <dc_rdfig> S: http://suo.ieee.org/email/msg06857.html from SethR

19:46:46 * em reads the schemas to get human readable labels... so it is used at least be me :)

19:47:04 <DanC> you're welcome to add the lables.

19:47:18 <SethR> S:| A fairly profound insight by John Sowa

19:47:19 <dc_rdfig> titled item S

19:47:50 <DanC> I'm starting to think that in stead of { :brother :label "brother"; a rdf:Property.} we should have gone with { :brother :propertyName "brother" } where { :propertyName rdfs:domain rdfs:Property}.

19:48:06 <timbl-lap> One file, one namespace - unless you redirect with rdfs:isDefinedIn (sp?). The schema checking only applies to Properties of course, not to resources like tasks and groups

19:48:20 <DanC> what about classes?

19:51:07 <timbl-lap> Seth, I think we would say nowadays that Bohr "embraced and extended" Newton's system.

19:51:21 <DanC> SethR, pls don't pollute the title slot; use the author's title, then add your annotation. (re R)

19:51:26 <timbl-lap> DanC, I don't validate classes _ i don't look them up. I could I suppose.

19:52:15 <SethR> sorry about that, DanC

19:53:01 <sbp> don't forget, you can change titles on the chump

19:53:10 <timbl-lap> em, No information about this resource is known at this time. Add schema to navigator.

19:53:21 <timbl-lap> -- should be a button.

19:53:42 <SethR> you mean just write over the prior title?

19:54:50 <SethR> S: | Foundations for Ontology

19:54:50 <dc_rdfig> commented item S

19:54:59 <SethR> nope doenst work

19:55:01 timbl-lap... good idea

19:55:12 <DanC> tim, is it the case that { [ :foo :bar] } log:includes { [ :foo :bar]}? I'm having trouble getting a rule to fire.

19:55:18 <timbl-lap> I couldn't connect http://www.daml.org/2001/03/daml+oil#inverseOf

19:55:45 <timbl-lap> Danc, yes it should be the case.

19:55:49 <danbri> Bored with XML/RDF striping now. /me off for food. Snapshotting scribbles.

19:59:49 <danbri>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2001Oct/att-0020/01-stripes.html

19:59:49 <dc_rdfig> T: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2001Oct/att-0020/01-stripes.html from danbri

20:00:38 <danbri> T:|An experiment in writing up RDF's striped syntax

20:00:38 <dc_rdfig> titled item T

20:00:44 <danbri> T:...because I liked the word 'striped'

20:00:45 <dc_rdfig> commented item T

20:01:22 <danbri> oops, formatting screwed. ho hum.

20:04:51 <AaronSw> T:Of course people will get really confused when they hit parseType="Resource"...

20:04:51 <dc_rdfig> commented item T

20:08:11 <timbl-lap> <rdf:rdf defaultParseType="Resource">

20:08:20 <danbri> T:Yeah, but most of the time they won't. The exceptions (when you know to watch out for them) illustrate the guiding rule.

20:08:44 <DanC> or rather: <rdf2:RDF>...

20:09:04 <dc_rdfig> commented item T

20:09:18 <danbri> T:Same goes for rdf:Description. It's pretty redundant since we could just have a typedNode called Resource.

20:09:19 <dc_rdfig> commented item T

20:09:34 <AaronSw> T:Yeah, I always wished that it was outlawed in deference of rdfs:Resouce

20:09:35 <dc_rdfig> commented item T

20:09:46 <AaronSw> So how'd this relate to SVG? Does SVG use striping too?

20:10:18 <danbri> T:I'm doing this as part of my investigation into SOAP as an XML edge-labeled graph syntax. I wanted something to show to SOAP folks that would help them read some basic RDF examples.

20:10:18 <dc_rdfig> commented item T

20:10:52 * sbp installs the latest CWM/notation3/llyn/thing, but gets caught out on "import RDFSink" in notation3.py... help?

20:11:17 <sbp> I changed it to "from llyn import RDFSink", but then something else barfs, in thing

20:12:12 <sbp> oh, RDFSink.py. Duh

20:12:14 <danbri> Does the striping writeup seem worth investigating further? I'm happy to leave it dangling...

20:12:19 <AaronSw> Yeah, just going to say that, sbp

20:12:52 <DanC> d'oh! I spent the last 30 min or so debugging the fact that I moved the forall p,s,o out of swad-chart.n3 and into howwhy.n3, so the rules that were in swad-chart didn't fire. i.e. lack of ?foo in N3 cost me .5hr

20:13:41 <AaronSw> We really need to replace notation3 with the new version

20:13:48 <AaronSw> yapps -- that's what i meant

20:13:54 <DanC> yeah

20:14:34 <DanC> timbl's willing to do that if we enhance happs to spit out event-based parsers.

20:14:43 <DanC> i.e. state-machine parsers.

20:14:53 <DanC> s/happs/yapps/

20:14:58 <sandro> Would ?foo simply be an implicit global scope universally quantified variable? Or would you still need to give it scope, but unlike now it could give an error if you forgot to?

20:14:58 <AaronSw> Is notation3.py event-based?

20:15:13 <DanC> implicit file scope, yes

20:15:21 <DanC> no, it's not, AaronSw. go figure. ;-)

20:15:30 <AaronSw> Heh.

20:15:47 <sbp> could we have "cwm.py, cwm_os.py, cwm_string.py, llyn.py, notation3.py, RDFSink.py, thing.py" linked to from /2000/10/swap/, please?

20:16:00 <DanC> ok... swad-chart.svg is working again, after splitting out the daml stuff.

20:16:39 * sbp wonders how many people come at CWM through /swap/ compared to /swap/cwm.py

20:17:02 <DanC> next step: a diagram of just the XML integration stuff. I might do that one by filtering, rather than by manual extraction, since there's no document where we said what XML integration looks like.

20:18:10 <sandro> What syntax do you imagine for (1) existentially quantified variables, and (2) smaller scope universal variables (needed for negation) ?

20:18:19 <SethR> dan, no title on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2001Oct/att-0020/01-stripes.html ... can't bookmark it yet :-(

20:18:36 <DanC> dunno, sandro. that's why we/I haven't done ?foo as global yet.

20:18:44 <sandro> :-)

20:19:12 <DanC> I just wanted to note the cost in the meantime.

20:19:30 <sandro> Are you/Tim attached to keeping logical connectives (eg log:implies) as appearing to be normal RDF elements?

20:19:51 <DanC> er... implies, yes, fairly. but not forAll/forSome.

20:19:55 <sandro> (even though they rely on nesting, which is not in RDF)

20:20:12 <DanC> log:implies isn't a logical connective, btw. it's just a predicate.

20:20:27 <DanC> normally, implies is a logical connective. But not in N3.

20:20:37 <DanC> implies is a relation between quoted formulas.

20:21:30 <DanC> we could define it thus: (defrelation (log:implies ?P ?Q) (wtr ^(=> ,?P ,?Q)))

20:21:55 <DanC> almost. there's some hairy interaction with variables inside the quoted formulas.

20:22:55 <sandro> I don't know KIF well enough -- I don't really grok weakly true (wtr). I also don't know defrelation or the comma prefix.

20:23:50 <sandro> But I think you're making n3 a lot more complicated than necessary there. Why not just make log:implies part of the n3 language?

20:24:16 <DanC> I dunno. I didn't make it the way it is.

20:24:26 <sandro> :-)

20:25:04 <DanC> N3 is a very, very odd way to do FOPL.

20:25:12 <sandro> Yah. :)

20:25:13 <DanC> (actually, FOPL without the LEM.)

20:25:22 <sandro> LEM?

20:25:32 <DanC> law of the excluded middle. P or not P.

20:26:18 <DanC> aka reductio ad absurdum: not not P -> P

20:26:21 <sandro> cwm doesn't actually do anything with log:Falsehood, or other negation-style reasoning, does it?

20:26:33 <DanC> er... no, I don't think so.

20:27:07 <DanC> so you can't really tell whether cwm believes in LEM or not. But TimBL and I don't.

20:27:14 <sandro> :-)

20:28:07 <sandro> I'm hoping to have a proposal for a less odd way to do FOPL w/RDF shortly.... Getting stuck in the hairiness of XML+lex+yac right now.

20:29:58 <sandro> timbl-lap: could use a circles-and-arrows diagram

20:30:03 <sandro> urp

20:30:26 * timbl-lap returns from loss of log - is the chump log realtime?

20:30:30 <sandro> my irc client wont let me start a line with "T:" :-)

20:30:47 <timbl-lap> T: weris

20:30:48 <dc_rdfig> commented item T

20:30:54 <sbp> heh

20:31:09 <timbl-lap> sbp, I have KIFSink.py cwm.py gram2html.py notation3.py rdfx2kif.py thing.py yappsrt.py

20:31:09 <timbl-lap> RDFSink.py cwm_os.py kifForm.py rdf2dot.py sax2rdf.py xml2rdf.py

20:31:09 <timbl-lap> SemEnglish.py cwm_string.py llyn.py rdfn3_yapps.py spark.py xmllib.py

20:31:09 <timbl-lap> converter-cgi.py de-cr.py n3spark.py rdfn3_yappstest.py tab2n3.py yapps2.py

20:31:15 <timbl-lap> but you don't need them all

20:31:30 <sbp> wow... that's some library of code you've got going there :-)

20:31:32 <AaronSw> timbl-lap, yep log is real time

20:31:34 <AaronSw> sandro, remove the space after the t:

20:31:36 <timbl-lap> I have been crying out for the CVS for the website to get access controlled public access

20:31:47 * timbl-lap goes of fto find log

20:32:01 <sbp> at: http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2001-10-19.txt

20:32:18 * AaronSw has no less than 89 files in his cwm directory

20:32:19 <sandro> T:could use a circles-and-arrows diagram

20:32:19 <dc_rdfig> commented item T

20:32:23 <dajobe> or for a quick review, /msg logger grep .

20:33:30 <DanC> T:this would make good primer material, after cutting the historical stuff out.

20:33:30 <dc_rdfig> commented item T

20:36:31 <danbri> T:Yeah, I left that in to justify my interest in the word 'striped' :)

20:36:32 <dc_rdfig> commented item T

20:37:04 <danbri> T:I've just committed a [working copy|http://www.w3.org/2001/10/stripes/] to w3.org and added an image. Feel free to hack away at it.

20:37:04 <dc_rdfig> commented item T

20:37:54 <timbl-lap> re log:includes -- well, it is nice not to have to extend the langauge, and nice to be able to do all the things with log:includes which you can do with predicates, like deduce rules....

20:37:59 * danbri heads off

20:38:19 * timbl-lap waves to the departing figure of the danbri

20:38:55 <timbl-lap> log:conjunction does not BTW

20:39:00 <DanC> tim, did you get a look at the DAML-only extract of the swad-chart diagram?

20:39:23 <DanC> i.e. http://www.w3.org/2000/01/sw/damlK535.svg ?

20:39:24 <timbl-lap> yes not sure I still have it

20:39:47 <timbl-lap> damlkschoen.

20:40:29 <sandro> My sense is that those games with log:includes, for the most part, terribly complicate the formal semantics (or at likely to just be omitted).

20:41:11 <DanC> nah... the formal semantics is just FOPL with quoting. it's the syntax that's horribly contorted.

20:41:35 <DanC> i.e. the decoding of N3 into traditional syntax.

20:42:16 <timbl-lap> Ok, give me an example of a syntax challenge.

20:43:32 <DanC> this log:forAll :x. { this log:forAll :y. :A log:implies { :x :greaterThan :y}}.

20:43:34 <DanC> spell that in KIF.

20:44:04 <DanC> (without using KIFSink.py ;-)

20:44:20 <sandro> Let me repeat with emphasis: "My sense is that THOSE GAMES with log:includes...." implies-leading-to-implies is just a more complicated syntax tree (doesn't actually mean anything about deducing rules since this is implication, not inference), but there are more weird things one is tempted to do, like { { } :myImplies { }. :myImplies daml:subPropertyOf log:implies. } which I think get crazy.

20:47:22 * DanC remembers thinking the very same thoughts.

20:47:49 <sandro> No doubt. :)

20:48:30 <DanC> the formalist in me thinks N3 is just wierd; not novel, just arbitrarily different from traditional stuff. But the engineer in me says hell, it works for lots of fun applications.

20:49:13 * sandro is trying to write the ISBN logic in blindfold, to see what features he need to get it clean.

20:49:34 <DanC> ISBN logic? international standard book number logic?

20:49:44 <AaronSw> That'd be interesting...

20:49:59 <bijan> The loguc of ISBN is "anything goes".

20:50:07 <bijan> "Sometimes more than once"

20:50:31 <sandro> Yeah -- the weird stuff about how if it starts with 90-93 the second field is 3 digits long, etc. And the checksum calculation.

20:51:12 <AaronSw> Yeah, ran a site that did ISBN lookup data for a while... someone implemented all that in a large mass of perl code.

20:51:27 <sandro> From http://www.xfront.com/isbn.html where it's an XML Schema example.

20:51:57 <AaronSw> So does that mean blindfold does XML now?

20:53:58 <sandro> Not yet -- I'm trying to get it to, but I haven't settled on all the details yet, so I'm trying to work through some use cases. I think XML/RDF is probably the scariest use case, but this ISBN one is challenging too.

20:58:32 <AaronSw> XML/RDF: Hmm, perhaps you should join the RDF Core SYNTAX subgroup.

21:01:18 <sandro> Yeah, I'm just getting back to this after about 2 months of putting it down. If I can make some real progress in the next few days, I'll try to coordinate with that group.

21:06:47 <DanC> holy cow... somebody encoded the ISBN checksum constraints in XML Schema? how the hell did they do that?

21:07:43 <SethR> S: see [Signs, Processes, and Language Games |http://www.jfsowa.com/pubs/signproc.htm]

21:07:44 <dc_rdfig> commented item S

21:08:13 <AaronSw> DanC, " Clearly, this constraint is not expressable with XML Schemas. Consequently we needed to supplement the ISBN schema simpleType definition with something else. We choose to express the additional constraints using XSLT."

21:08:26 <sandro> aaron beat me to that.

21:08:53 <sandro> My hope is to express that constraint using a math vocabulary, I guess.

21:13:21 * SethR wonders why quantification needs to be part of the N3 language instead of simply another arc labeled (forall or forsome) that goes from a variable to a context

21:16:06 <sbp> it doesn't (witness log:forAll log:forSome)

21:17:36 <SethR> so it is just a arc ?

21:18:28 <SethR> only i drew the arc in the wrong direction ... it goes from the context to the variable ??

21:18:35 <AaronSw> Yep.

21:18:37 <AaronSw> Right now... but for some reason they want to change it.

21:18:45 <AaronSw> err, change it so it's not just an arc

21:19:01 <SethR> oh i hope they dont do that

21:19:03 <sbp> you could do _:x daml:inverseOf log:forAll . and use that, Seth

21:19:25 <sbp> ah, but contexts aren't a part of RDF 1.0, so it doesn't matter

21:19:59 <AaronSw> RDF 1.0 doesn't matter. ;)

21:20:04 <sbp> yeah, ture

21:20:04 <bijan> "Just an arc"...why is this even a *value*? I don't even understand what it's supposed to *mean* much less what advantage it's supposed to convey.

21:20:18 <SethR> i agree with Aaron :)

21:20:55 <SethR> bijan, huh?

21:21:41 <bijan> I can't make sense of "quantification is simply another arc labelled blah blah blah blah"

21:22:34 <bijan> And I strongly doubt that there's a coherent reading of it that makes it an especially desireable state.

21:22:43 <SethR> see http://robustai.net/mentography/entailsIdentity.gif

21:23:03 <bijan> And how is that supposed to help?

21:23:42 <SethR> draws a rdf graph showing how a quantification relates a variable to a context

21:24:48 <bijan> And, granting that, how is that supposed to help make the desire for "quantification to be just an arc" be either coherent or interesting?

21:25:46 <SethR> well in my mind everything is an arc ... so now i can put quantification in my mind :)

21:26:21 <SethR> you may want to substitute model for mind

21:26:34 <bijan> Yes, but why would anyone, including you, be interesting in a quantification that was just "in your mind"? Most of us are interesting in regular quantification.

21:26:51 <SethR> huh?

21:27:19 <SethR> if its in my model, then i can compute with it

21:27:20 <bijan> Thus far, you're argument reduces to "I want quantification to be an arc" but you haven't explained what that is and why having things that way is interesting or useful.

21:27:25 <bijan> Or even possible.

21:27:50 <SethR> if it is not in my model, i cant compute with it

21:28:03 <bijan> Not at all, it has to be in your model *correctly*, yes? At the very least.

21:28:52 <SethR> the arc is correct if it does not contradict any of the axioms in my model ... that is if my model believes in LEM

21:29:48 <bijan> Seth: That's gibberish. "The arc", what arc? "The arc that is quantification", but that's the very thing that still needs explication.

21:30:17 <bijan> And *presumably* it's not the "axioms in your model" that an expression of quantification need answer to, but facts about quantification.

21:30:29 <SethR> so, explicate it off of it's property node .. that's the way we do things in rdf .. isnt it?

21:30:38 <bijan> Finally, I don't know why the LEM crops up at all.

21:31:05 <SethR> you cant know if it contradicts unless you can assume LEM

21:32:34 <bijan> Er..the first sentence still fails to explicate a thing. Thus another dodge.

21:33:01 <bijan> The second is just false, on most readings and in most situations, and it still, afaict, irrelevant.

21:33:46 <SethR> errr ... im not sure what you are asking me to do at the moment ... too many pronouns to evaluate

21:33:59 * timbl-lap had been just going to leave

21:34:40 <bijan> You said: "so, explicate it off of it's property node .. that's the way we do

21:34:42 <bijan> +things in rdf .. isnt it?"

21:34:43 <timbl-lap> The difference betwen forAll and an arc in the normal sense? That if :x = :y in the daml:equivalentTO sense, then you can't assume from forAll x that froAll y too.

21:35:12 <timbl-lap> SO htey work on tokens rather than daml:equaivalnce classes.

21:35:36 <timbl-lap> Also, forSome has hte problem that you can't remove a forSome triple from a formula which was true and know you have one left which is still true.

21:36:04 <AaronSw> Ah!

21:36:08 * AaronSw groks now

21:36:10 <timbl-lap> That latter problem could be fixed by changin the syntax but the first couldn't. Basically, quantifiers don't behave like properties enough.

21:36:35 <SethR> why?

21:36:36 <timbl-lap> So I trat them as triples which aren't RDF statements.

21:36:37 <bijan> Except, sometimes, in modal contexts.

21:37:28 <timbl-lap> You could write { blah blah blah } log:forSome2 ( :x :y :z ) which gets over the triple removal problem.

21:38:06 <timbl-lap> ut it is easiest to say "first extract all the forAll and forSome triples and use them to find hte scope of variables, then treat hte rest as preciates.

21:38:15 <timbl-lap> Especially when talking to Kiffy people.

21:38:33 * timbl-lap really ahs to leave and amy check logs later

21:39:42 <SethR> well that gives me something to chew on

21:40:06 * bijan points out to Seth that Tim *already* explained why. "quantifiers don't behave like properties enough" *summarizes* what he wrote just before that.

21:40:46 <SethR> yes i saw that .. was on phone .. i feel a mentograph comming on ... i cant think in these stings of words

21:51:26 <SethR> tim's first objection is easy: "hat if :x = :y in the daml:equivalentTO sense, then you can't assume from forAll x that froAll y too"

21:52:32 <SethR> obviously '=' in a formula is *not* daml:equivalentTo

21:52:49 <AaronSw> It is in cwm.

21:52:58 <SethR> too bad for cwm

21:53:47 <SethR> '=' is equal on value .... daml:equivalentTo is more like identical ... usually we use ==

21:54:12 <SethR> to be equal is not to be identical

21:55:03 <sbp> CWM also has log:equalTo

21:55:19 <sbp> er... but I think that means that the URIs are identical

21:55:57 <SethR> anyway there is no reason here not to have quantifications not be arcs

21:56:54 <bijan> So there *is* reason to have quantification not "be arcs"

21:56:58 <bijan> Glad you agree.

21:56:59 <SethR> the second objection is deeper .. got to noodle on that one

21:57:30 <SethR> huh .. did i not count the nots correstly in my sentences?

21:57:31 * AaronSw thinks bijan should speak Spanish -- there double negatives are required!

21:57:58 <bijan> No seth, you did :)

21:58:29 <AaronSw> But bijan, just because there is no reason not to doesn't necessarily mean that there is a reason to.

21:58:50 <bijan> I niether said, nor implies, nor suggested otherwise :)

21:59:05 <AaronSw> You said "Glad you agree."

21:59:57 <bijan> Oops. yes, I was assuming double negation.

22:00:26 <SethR> let me be perfectly clear: i see nothing in Tim's =/equivalentTo statement that would require quantification to not just be an arc from a variable to a context

22:01:10 <bijan> Look harder!

22:01:51 <SethR> hey i just explained why .... '=' is not '==' .... they are totally different relationships ... end story

22:03:19 <bijan> Why you think that helps is beyond me.

22:03:57 <SethR> tim's argument was based upon the assumption that = was the same as ==

22:04:13 <bijan> Not in the way that you seem to think.

22:04:32 * AaronSw decides that giving a node a URI doesn't need to use a triple

22:07:33 <bijan> At the very least you have to show that "If :x = :y in the SethSense, then you *can* assume from forAll x that forAll y too"

22:07:41 <bijan> Actually you have to do more, but I'd like to see this bit first.

22:25:37 <AaronSw>http://blogspace.com/rdf/rdfapi.txt

22:25:38 <dc_rdfig> U: http://blogspace.com/rdf/rdfapi.txt from AaronSw

22:25:46 <AaronSw> U:|Aaron's experimental RDF API

22:25:46 <dc_rdfig> titled item U

22:26:37 <bijan> def literalToURI(value):

22:26:38 <bijan> return 'data:' + urllib.quote(value)

22:26:53 <bijan> Doesn't value need to be in backticks? i.e., `value`?

22:27:02 <bijan> Or are you supposed to only pass it strings?

22:27:25 <AaronSw> What do backticks do?

22:27:27 <bijan> (in which case I might call the var something liek aString :)

22:27:37 <bijan> They force the repr of the object.

22:27:44 <AaronSw> U:Passes [simple testcase|http://blogspace.com/rdf/rdfapi-tests.txt]

22:27:45 <dc_rdfig> commented item U

22:27:46 <AaronSw> Ahh, cool...

22:27:53 <bijan> I.e., 'This is ' + `1`

22:28:06 <AaronSw> Hmm...

22:28:12 <AaronSw> I guess I'll stick the backticks in.

22:28:54 <bijan> Note: that might well count as an extention of your api.

22:29:42 <bijan> Actually, if value is some sort of Literal object, you may want the backticks.

22:29:45 <bijan> I'm not sure.

22:30:03 <bijan> i see a commented out Literal class :)

22:30:21 <AaronSw> Yeah... I think I can do it all from the node interning

22:30:22 <bijan> Why is triple a subclass of node?

22:30:45 <AaronSw> So that you can assert things about triples.

22:31:16 <bijan> Without quotation?

22:31:45 <AaronSw> Well, if the triple never changes, you don't really need to quote it.

22:31:55 <bijan> Huh?

22:31:55 <AaronSw> Err... that could be musunderstood.

22:33:00 <AaronSw> Hmm...

22:33:02 <bijan> Y'know, it might be fun to put some "vocab" checking into Namespace.

22:33:10 <AaronSw> Heheh.

22:33:15 <AaronSw> Is there a py function for that?

22:33:17 <bijan> I.e., if you try to dc.subjdct it gives you an error.

22:33:33 <AaronSw> There's no way to definitvely check that tho.

22:34:07 <bijan> Well, you'd have to check a schema or something.

22:34:18 <sbp> yeah, CWM can do it, why can't you? :-)

22:34:19 <AaronSw> But schemas aren't required to be definitive, AFAIK.

22:34:29 <AaronSw> You could give warnings, but not errors.

22:34:30 <sbp> but you can check to see if something is defined

22:34:42 <bijan> Eh..ok, warnings then.

22:35:00 <bijan> "You stupid schmuck! Why are you polluting this namespace with your made up, ad hoc crapola!"

22:35:06 <sbp> ah, that's the whole point about "validating" RDF based schemata; you can only ever check for inconsistencies

22:35:26 <bijan> "If you do that again, I'm going to change all your variables to hungarian notation!"

22:35:27 <AaronSw> Heheh.

22:35:30 <AaronSw> LOL!

22:36:36 <AaronSw> But bijan, what's wrong with asserting something about a resource that identifies a triple?

22:36:44 <AaronSw> s/resource/node/

22:36:59 <AaronSw> We will have to identify whether assertions are quoted or not, true.

22:38:02 <bijan> "resoruce that identifies a triple" *is* a quotation of that triple (in some extended sense)

22:38:44 <bijan> There is *no* benefit, afaict, to avoiding quotation. Embrace it, and it will set you reification-free :)

22:40:12 <bijan> In an api, it's nice if the exposed programming stuff, if possible and convenient, reasonably mirrors the domain (IMHO)

22:40:43 <bijan> So, I just want to be sure that a triple *is* (resonably though of as) a kind of node.

22:41:03 <bijan> (Whether it's usefully *implemented* as a subclass of node is a different story, of course)

22:41:15 <AaronSw> Right.

22:41:36 <AaronSw> The problem with quotation is that if someone says:

22:41:41 <AaronSw> <triple> implies <triple>

22:41:53 <AaronSw> you want to be able to bugger inside the triples and produce valid statements

22:42:01 <AaronSw> But I'm not sure if that's a special case or not.

22:42:18 <sbp> but implies is a special case because of the quantification

22:42:23 <sbp> pick another use case!

22:42:35 <AaronSw> That's the trouble -- I can't think of any!

22:42:37 <bijan> I'm never sure if "implies" is supposed to be ->, -<, |-, or |=

22:42:55 <AaronSw> Me neither. ;)

22:43:00 <sbp> heh, heh

22:43:06 <sbp> what is "=>" in KIF?

22:44:44 <bijan> They call it implication, and I'm *guessing* that it's material implication...checking.

22:45:01 <bijan> yes.

22:45:11 <bijan> If every antecedent in an implication is true, then the implication as a whole is true if and only if the the consequent is true. If any of the antecedents is false, then the implication as a whole is true, regardless of the truth value of the consequent.

22:45:16 <sbp> I would guess that's the same flavour of implication used in CWM

22:45:33 <bijan> So, that's ->

22:45:34 <AaronSw> That's the normal implication that I know of.

22:45:37 <sbp> cool

22:45:48 <bijan> But it's a sentential operator.

22:45:58 <sbp> do explain

22:46:16 <bijan> Ok, |- and |= give relations between sentences.

22:46:32 <bijan> Thus are not usually in your object language. They're for saying stuff about the object language.

22:46:47 <bijan> -> is uses to compose sentences out of other sentences.

22:47:32 <sbp> O.K., that explains the "it's a sentential operator", now what about the "But"?

22:48:50 <bijan> Er...nothing much :)

22:49:19 <sbp> and anyway... if |- and |= say things about the object language, surely any type of inference can still be used to make new statements out of what you alreay have? Or are they sort of definition rules for a language?

22:51:11 <bijan> er...

22:51:30 <bijan> Typically |- and |= are part of a metalangauge.

22:52:06 <bijan> You could use them definitionality, i.e., in this language I'm inventing P, P->Q |- Q.

22:52:57 <bijan> So, |- isn't an *operator* in the defined language, though it does help tell you what transformations are possible *in* that langauage.

22:53:05 <bijan> Take &.

22:53:29 <bijan> I can say that I'll allow the following transformation : A. B. |- A & B.

22:53:58 <bijan> I've thereby (assumign all the relevant machinery) defined a new sentential operator, &, and how to "get it" into the language.

22:54:47 <bijan> By "use to compose new sentences out of old sentences" I meant "use to create a larger sentence which has the older sentences as componants"

22:54:53 <sbp> ah! got it

22:55:59 <bijan> So, really, I guess the problem isn't so much quotation (in RDF) but that you can't have arcs that are sentential connectives.

22:57:55 <sbp> but why do you *need* to have arcs that are sentential connectives? is it really necessary?

22:58:17 <bijan> "necessary"? Not in some sense.

22:58:32 <sbp> I can see the value of them in defining languages, but RDF is meant to be just such a language, is it not?

22:58:40 <bijan> But it makes some things trickier and some things less convenient.

22:58:54 <bijan> Sentential conncetives *are* part of the language.

22:59:52 <bijan> They're hand to have in the language because we like saying things like , "If Bob and Betty keep kissing, then I'm going home."

23:00:58 <bijan> I *love* saying that.

23:01:02 <bijan> I say it all the time.

23:01:07 <sbp> so, (let's see if I've got this straight) the problem is that one cannot add to the list of rules with sentential connectives in them in RDF; that it would be handy to do so

23:01:19 <sbp> heh, heh: can you write it out for me?

23:02:17 <bijan> Sean: Well, I don't like saying it in rdf :)

23:02:35 <sbp> ah, you can write it in whatever notation suits you

23:02:55 <sbp> just give me something to try to grok...

23:03:13 <bijan> Alas, it's ambiguous: (B & B2) -> H

23:03:18 <sbp> the problem is that expressing time frames in RDF is so messy... ugh

23:03:20 <bijan> Or B -> H.

23:03:42 <bijan> Or, (Kissing(bob, betty)) -> GoingHome(bijan))

23:03:47 <sbp> well, if -> = => = log:implies...

23:04:10 <sbp> { :Bob :kissing Betty } log:implies { :Bijan a :GoingHome } .

23:04:23 <bijan> Or, (Kissing(bob) & Kissing(better)) -> GoingHome(bijan))

23:04:36 <sbp> I think that N3 should adopt having binary statements as methods of typing

23:05:06 <sbp> is that really equivalent? i doesn't appear to me to say who they are kissing

23:05:22 <bijan> Or, E(x)E(y) (Kissing(Bob, x) & Kissing(Betty, y) -> goingHome(Bijan))

23:05:30 <bijan> They need *not* be kissing each other :)

23:05:48 <sbp> ah, but you didn't say that with the original statement

23:05:50 <bijan> Though the pragmatics lean that way.

23:05:52 <sbp> (and "heh", BTW!)

23:05:53 <bijan> Sure I did.

23:06:05 <bijan> If Bob and Bettey keep kissing...

23:06:11 <bijan> I didn't say they were kissing each other.

23:06:12 <sbp> oh no, you did... I misread it

23:06:40 <bijan> (If Bob and Betty keep kissing their dog...)

23:06:53 <sbp> heh, I can see why you'd want to leave

23:07:05 <bijan> Slobber city. :)_

23:09:09 <sbp> (exists ((?x) (?y)) (=> (and (kissing Bob ?x) (kissing Betty ?y)) (GoingHome Bijan)))

23:09:19 <sbp> or something or other

23:09:46 <bijan> Yes. That looks about right.

23:10:55 * sbp would really like ":x :Person ." to be valid in N3

23:11:37 <sbp> and for that matter, ":x ."

23:11:47 <bijan> Meaning....?

23:12:06 <sbp> { :x :Person } log:implies { :x rdf:type :Person } .

23:12:22 <sbp> { :x } log:implies { :x rdf:type rdfs:Resource } .

23:12:26 <sbp> this log:forAll :x .

23:12:29 <sbp> because then...

23:12:49 <sbp> if you had a list of people and dogs, do search through and extract all people, you'd do:-

23:13:04 <sbp> { :x :Person } log:implies { :x } .

23:13:11 <sbp> using -filter in CWM

23:13:21 <sbp> this log:forAll :x . # again

23:13:59 <sbp> does that make theoretical and practical sense?

23:14:35 <bijan> I'm afraid I really don't know enough about CWM.

23:15:29 <bijan> Wow, the KIF world-book ontology is....big.

23:15:48 <sbp> URI?

23:15:59 <sbp> Aw, man... sorry, I've gotta run

23:16:09 <bijan> Ta.

23:17:04 <tim> sbp finds that "a" is too long for rdf:type? Sigh ...

23:18:13 <bijan> Heh.

23:18:42 <bijan> I saw a perl article which (perhaps tongue in cheek) claimed that "sum" was too long to type "for such a common operation)

23:18:52 <tim> But using => forlog:implies of course I have thought about. Or ->

23:19:25 <tim> And I could add <- for "is log:implies of" which would make the people happier who expect it that way around.

23:19:52 <bijan> Well, I guess I would endorse the KIF spellings for this sort of thing. I guess :)

23:20:59 <bijan> Actually, I'd support N3 being one of the conformance subsets of KIF :)

23:22:44 <tim> Well, were would a complete mapping break down?

23:24:38 <tim> Coul dput some links, like (kif:and (kif:or kif:raining kif:pouring) kif:cold) a kifn3:wtf

23:26:09 <tim> Right now have the problem when log:conjunction generates a new formula containing two formulae merged, it doesn't realize if it had that formula before - so just generates it again and agian. I have been wondering about interning formulae, like I intern strings and URIs.

23:26:35 * bijan notes that he was referring to 12.2 of the kif spec.

23:26:38 <tim> That would solve the problem of having space and time taken by copies, and it would allow instant comparison.

23:26:55 <bijan> Which defines such things as: 12.2.2 Logical Form

23:26:55 <bijan> The first conformance dimension concerns logical form. There are five basic categories: atomic, conjunctive, positive, logical, and rule-like. Rule-like knowledge bases are further categorized as Horn or non-Horn and recursive or non-recursive.

23:26:55 <bijan> A knowledge base is atomic if and only if it contains no logical operators.

23:26:55 <bijan> A knowledge base is conjunctive if and only if it contains no logical operators except for conjunction.

23:26:57 * tim doesn't have a KIF spec in front of him

23:26:57 <bijan> A knowledge base is positive if and only if it contains no logical operators except for conjunction and disjunction.

23:27:06 <bijan>http://logic.stanford.edu/kif/dpans.html

23:27:07 <dc_rdfig> V: http://logic.stanford.edu/kif/dpans.html from bijan

23:27:11 <bijan> V:|KIF spec

23:27:12 <dc_rdfig> titled item V

23:27:25 <bijan> V:Because some things you can never chump enough.

23:27:25 <dc_rdfig> commented item V

23:27:41 <tim> :)

23:28:10 <tim> I also wondered about subsetting N3 in that way, too.

23:28:16 * danbri went through the logs -- very few things have been chumped twice or more

23:28:19 <tim> RDF is conjunctive.

23:28:47 <bijan> I think that would be a *great* idea (subsetting n3 that way)

23:30:23 <tim> You could do it in the BNF, couldn't you? positiveForumula :: statement* etc

23:32:22 <bijan> looks like.

23:32:37 <tim> Just someone has to do it.

23:32:59 <tim> n3todo++

23:33:06 <bijan> :)

23:34:17 <tim> The problem with interning formulae is that every time you craete one you have to do graph isomorphism checking against the ensemble of all other formulae. Of course, you only check formulae the same size.

23:35:28 * tim wonders whether chump should give a score when chumping for >1 time, and link back to the log when it happens. Reverse link generation of a sort.

23:36:25 <bijan> Heh, I had a version that would just wap you if you did that (in the same day)

The IRC chat here was automatically logged without editing and contains content written by the chat participants identified by their IRC nick. No other identity is recorded.