Semantic Web Interest Group IRC Chat Logs for 2002-03-26

00:11:21 <AaronSw> Jos: "well, bNodes are quite all-round I think [...] - in a query (graph) they are universals"

00:11:43 <sbp> Heh. Mmmkay

00:12:13 <AaronSw> he gives a bunch of other meanings too. in LHS of an entailment they're universals, in RHS they're skolems and in OWL they're DAML Lists.

00:12:19 <AaronSw> that should go in the model theory or something

00:30:13 <lilo> [Global Notice] Hi all. Please be aware that dancer-ircd-1.0.31+maint3, which contains a fix for the INVITE propagation problem, is not yet on. We'd appreciate it if you would test that fix on the testnet: simply connect to the OPN server of your choice, port 9001. We need your help. Thanks!

00:38:13 <sbp> what? "the behaviour of bNodes is arbitrary, and depends upon the season"?

00:43:06 <AaronSw> seems that way

00:43:21 <sandro> The LHS / RHS / Skolem stuff is just what happens to existentials. It's in the model theory + standard logic.

00:43:37 <sandro> I dunno about the list stuff.

00:43:58 <AaronSw> really? i didn't know existentials turned into universals when used in query. odd

00:44:33 <sandro> Well, they can if you look at it right. If you negate them, and the LHS of a rule/query can be seen as negated.

00:45:05 <sandro> forall X if f(X) ... === if exists X such that f(X)

02:09:07 <oierw|sleep-scho> oierw|sleep-scho is now known as oierw

03:56:18 * DanC got a new iMac today... wonders if AaronSw is around to clue me in on how to install Open Source software on it

03:56:32 <AaronSw> ooh, awesome!

03:56:41 <AaronSw> grab the mac version of apt at fink.sourceforge.net

03:57:14 <AaronSw> http://fink.sourceforge.net/download/

03:57:59 <DanC> hmm... Mary's using the box just now... I see it has ssh (client) pre-installed; I wonder if the sshd (server) is there too,

03:58:04 <DanC> ... so I could do admin from this box

03:58:28 <DanC> btw... it asked for a username/password, but no root password.

03:58:35 <DanC> during initial config

03:58:49 <AaronSw> yeah, you're supposed to use sudo rather than give a root password

03:59:03 <DanC> that makes sense

03:59:42 <DanC> I saw that as one of the big challenges for consumer-unix: how to allow users to install sw/hw without giving them root

04:00:11 <AaronSw> I think you can turn sshd on by going to "System Preferences" -> Sharing -> Application -> "Allow remote login"

04:00:42 <AaronSw> yep, that works

04:01:07 * DanC gives that a try...

04:02:43 <DanC> "Welcome to Darwin!"

04:03:08 <AaronSw> :-)

04:03:11 <DanC> er... I'm logged in to Mary's account; I want an account of my own

04:03:34 <AaronSw> hmm, that's sorta tricky from the command line

04:03:48 <AaronSw> Easiest is just to go to System Preferences->Users

04:04:41 * DanC gives that a try...

04:09:36 <DanC> [[

04:09:36 <DanC> Welcome to Darwin!

04:09:36 <DanC> [localhost:~] connolly%

04:09:37 <DanC> ]]

04:09:42 <AaronSw> nice!

04:11:21 * DanC puzzles over df output... much to learn!

04:11:42 <DanC> ircii: Command not found.

04:12:00 <DanC> lynx: Command not found.

04:12:04 <AaronSw> yeah, you'll probably want to get fink right away ;)

04:12:14 <DanC> well, how the heck do I get fink?

04:12:35 <AaronSw> well, you can get the one which downloads binary packages but requires GUI access to install

04:12:47 <AaronSw> or you can get the one which compiles things itself, but can be run entirely from the command line

04:12:53 <AaronSw> GUI: http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/fink/fink-0.3.2a-installer.dmg.gz

04:12:53 <dc_rdfig> Label GUI not found.

04:13:02 <AaronSw> cli: http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/fink/fink-0.3.2a-full.tar.gz

04:13:28 <DanC> do I need to sit in front of the machine to grab those? is there anything I can use for wget/curl?

04:13:37 <AaronSw> curl comes installed

04:13:45 <DanC> aha... man -k http finds curl

04:14:53 * DanC tries following his nose from http://fink.sourceforge.net/

04:15:34 * DanCon is having a bad net day

04:16:23 <DanCon> chuckle: sudo: [[ We trust you have received the usual lecture from the local System

04:16:23 <DanCon> Administrator. ...]]

04:17:43 * DanCon grabs fink-0.3.2a-installer.dmg.gz using curl

04:18:01 * DanCon sees ETA of 13 min

04:19:22 <DanCon> getting the rio 600 to work was funny: I hooked it up, put in the CD that comes with it... tried the installer; it looked klunky, didn't find the hardware...

04:19:45 <DanCon> googled around for a while, found a USENET message ala "my rio 600 works fine with itunes"

04:19:46 <DanCon> duh.

04:19:58 <DanCon> it Just Worked with itunes.

04:20:15 <AaronSw> Heh, takes a little getting used to, I guess. ;-)

04:20:34 <DanCon> ok, next challenge: Epson Perfection 636U scanner.

04:20:43 <DanCon> [[ Currently EPSON scanner and digital camera products are not supported by Mac OS X directly. ]] -- http://support.epson.com/webadvice/wa0301.html

04:22:24 <AaronSw> "We will be announcing, in a few weeks, the release dates for drivers for the [...] Perfection scanners and professional graphics printers that will be supported."

04:22:26 <AaronSw> - ibid.

04:23:04 <DanCon> meanwhile, it worked with linux, via SANE. should I expect SANE to work und OSX?

04:23:41 <DanCon> "Found no packages that match "sane"." -- http://fink.sourceforge.net/pdb/search.php?s=sane

04:24:30 <AaronSw> doesn't look like anyone's ported it

04:24:39 <AaronSw> it should work under os 9 emulation mode, tho

04:24:55 <DanCon> er... it doesn't seem to

04:25:24 <DanCon> i.e. the OS 9 emulator fires up when I start the scanner software, but it complains about not being able to find the hardware, just like the rio software

04:25:42 * DanCon wonders how USB works in OS X

04:25:47 <niq> dancon, freebsd can run linux binaries - maybe macosx can too

04:26:03 <AaronSw> hmm. Espon: "The following scanner and digital camera products are supported in Mac OS X Classic mode via USB: [...] *Perfection 636U - TWAIN 3.20A

04:26:19 <DanCon> I doubt the kernel interface to a USB scanner works the same way in linux and macosx

04:26:52 <niq> I was about to say, you'd probably need to hack at the driver interfaces

04:27:24 <DanCon> how would I *start* to find out how USB works under macosx?

04:27:34 <niq> don't know

04:28:03 <niq> .google macos usb

04:28:05 <xena> macos usb: http://developer.apple.com/hardware/usb/download.htm

04:28:10 <DanCon> ah... from the font of all knowledge, google: http://developer.apple.com/hardware/usb/downloadsdk.htm

04:30:43 <DanCon> hmm... "More About USB on the MacOS" http://developer.apple.com/hardware/usb/usbmacos.htm has nice diagrams and such, but nothing about /dev or other unix-y stuff

04:31:18 <niq> .google macos sane

04:31:19 <xena> macos sane: http://www.mostang.com/sane/man/sane-abaton.5.html&e=921

04:31:34 <AaronSw> .google sane os x

04:31:35 <xena> sane os x: http://www.mostang.com/pipermail/sane-devel/2001-July/000579.html

04:34:20 * DanCon browses "Porting Unix software to Darwin and Mac OS X" http://fink.sourceforge.net/doc/porting/index.php

04:39:52 * DanCon groans at yet-another-shared-library system...

04:41:54 <DanCon> hmm... porting doc doesn't discuss filesystems, hardware access, all that jazz.

04:42:16 <DanCon> "There is a #fink channel on the openprojects.net IRC network."

04:58:06 <DanCon> logger, pointer?

04:58:07 <DanCon> See http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2002-03-26#T04-58-06

05:55:58 <DanCon> whee! working on this iMac: python cwm.py test/animal-simple.n3

05:58:12 * DanCon fixes newlines in retest.sh; grumble

05:58:24 * DanCon starts retest on iMac...

05:58:46 <DanCon> real0m36.840s

05:58:46 <DanCon> user0m0.150s

05:58:46 <DanCon> sys0m1.120s

05:59:31 <DanCon> hmm... some failures, though

05:59:48 <DanCon> I think my copy of swap has got some uncommitted changes

06:06:02 * AaronSw cvs ups and tries

06:06:02 <AaronSw> real 1m59.846s

06:06:03 <AaronSw> user 0m54.810s

06:06:03 <AaronSw> sys 0m9.120s

06:06:30 <connolly> connolly is now known as DanC

10:08:40 <danbri_>http://www-ksl.stanford.edu/email-archives/interlingua.index.html

10:08:41 <dc_rdfig> A: http://www-ksl.stanford.edu/email-archives/interlingua.index.html from danbri_

10:09:11 <danbri_> A:|Interlingua mail archives 1990-1994, (at KSL, Stanford)

10:09:11 <dc_rdfig> titled item A

10:09:24 <danbri_> A:Featuring various of the usual suspects...

10:09:25 <dc_rdfig> added comment A1

10:22:16 <jang> interesting "bug report" from jasper...

10:22:25 <jang> he was eating RSS 1.0 with sirpac

10:22:28 <jang> and every item was

10:22:35 <jang> <Item rdf:about=""> ...

10:22:46 <jang> which was interpreted as a relative URL to the base URI

10:22:59 <jang> so he wound up with titles, etc. all hanging off one node.

10:23:21 <jang> don't know where the RSS was coming from, but I'd guess they've got a very XML mindset

10:23:54 <jang> heh, "the XML Mindset Spec has reached Candidate Rec status"

10:24:10 <danbri_> that's the right interpretation, I think. The Item's should've had URIs though

11:23:54 <sandro> A:Wow, very cool to have these on-line.....

11:23:54 <dc_rdfig> added comment A2

12:02:34 <jang> it's the right interpretation of the RDF (I think; have to check the resolution of "" against a base URI, but I think that's right); however, it's broken use of RSS.

14:56:12 <MarkB>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-palmer-resrep-type-00.txt

14:56:13 <dc_rdfig> B: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-palmer-resrep-type-00.txt from MarkB

14:56:43 <dajobe> date is wrong on it

14:56:57 <dajobe> 2001?

14:58:19 <MarkB> B:|I-D defining new HTTP headers for resource and representation types

14:58:19 <dc_rdfig> titled item B

14:58:39 <MarkB> B:more URIs in HTTP headers = goodness

14:58:40 <dc_rdfig> added comment B1

14:59:29 <MarkB> yup, appears to be only incorrect date though. expiry is fine.

15:01:22 <MarkB> B:<a href="http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2002-03-21.html#T04-52-32">another way of doing Repr-Type</a>

15:01:22 <dc_rdfig> added comment B2

15:01:32 <MarkB> oops

15:01:43 <dajobe> you can delete it, or amend it

15:01:45 <MarkB> ah, wiki style, right?

15:01:52 <dajobe> use B2:new comment or B2:"" to delete it

15:01:56 <MarkB> thx

15:02:04 <MarkB> B2:""

15:02:04 <dc_rdfig> deleted comment B2

15:02:06 <dajobe> wiki - yeah

15:02:15 <dajobe> do /msg dc_rdfig help then morehelp for details

15:02:17 <MarkB> URI first?

15:02:20 <MarkB> k

15:03:49 <MarkB> B:[another way of doing Repr-Type|http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2002-03-21.html#T04-52-32]

15:03:50 <dc_rdfig> added comment B2

15:14:28 <DanC>http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/ppt-bank/

15:14:29 <dc_rdfig> C: http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/ppt-bank/ from DanC

15:14:34 <DanC> C:|a paper-trail bank

15:14:35 <dc_rdfig> titled item C

15:14:40 <DanC> C:pending some cwm list-handling bugs

15:14:40 <dc_rdfig> added comment C1

15:15:23 <AaronSw> B:March 2001?

15:15:23 <dc_rdfig> added comment B3

17:56:45 * DanC_ catches up with the scratchpad...

17:56:49 <DanC_> chuckle: "When the Times covers my industry it seems they only know three stories -- Microsoft is evil, Java is the future (or open source or whatever the topic du jour is) and Apple is dead. "

18:44:32 <DanC_> daveb: references stuff in the syntax WD is exemplary. http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-rdf-syntax-grammar-20020325/#section-References

20:03:18 * edd heads off towards food

21:25:58 <connolly>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Mar/att-0301/01-swol.html

21:25:58 <dc_rdfig> D: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Mar/att-0301/01-swol.html from connolly

21:26:06 <connolly> D:|A Preliminary Formalization of a Web Ontology Language (OWL) in ACL2

21:26:06 <dc_rdfig> titled item D

21:26:11 <connolly> connolly is now known as DanC

21:26:29 <DanC> D:by Michael K. Smith

21:26:29 <dc_rdfig> added comment D1

21:28:55 <DanC> D:[A Precise Description of the ACL2 Logic|http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/moore/publications/km97a.ps.Z] is one of a handful of documents I keep *paper* copies of in my office.

21:28:55 <dc_rdfig> added comment D2

21:29:53 <DavidW2> You guys recommend a specific RDF parser for Java? :)

21:30:02 <DanC> Jena is pretty popular

21:30:07 <DanC> .google Jena RDF

21:30:17 <dajobe> no xena at moment

21:30:18 <DanC> er... xachbot?

21:30:55 <dajobe> parser: arp is at http://www-uk.hpl.hp.com/people/jjc/arp/

21:31:23 <DavidW2> And for the beginner (i.e. me), take for example, I know RSS 0.9x is plain XML and RSS 1.0 is RDF. How is aprsing these two going to differ? Maybe that's a bad question.

21:32:23 <DavidW2> And know they speak of "tuples" in regards to RDF, but that's about the extent of it that I know ;)

21:32:35 <dajobe> DavidW2: well, as you say they are (slightly) different so you'll need two parsers or transfor 0.9x to 1.0 before parsing

21:33:01 <DavidW2> Yes, I think an XSLT transform for 0.9x to 1.0 makes sense

21:33:19 <DanC> looking at RSS as XML, i.e. from a SAX interface, will look like: here's a start Tag... here's some character data... here's an end tag...

21:33:20 <dajobe> DavidW2: RDF describes a web; with the links being properties labeled with URIs and the documents at each end also URI-labled (or strings)

21:34:00 <DanC> looking at RSS as RDF, i.e. from Jena will look like: triple( rss:item, channelX, item1) ; triple(rss:item, channelX, item2) and so on

21:34:29 <DavidW2> But still, when namespace elements are mixed within a document, I'm not so sure how to handle these, esp for a parser which does not handle namespaces, and the fact that what you call a namespace can be arbitrary as long as it refers to the right DTD? Is that right?

21:34:53 <DanC> er...

21:35:09 <DanC> "parser which does not handle namespaces" <- how is that relevant? why are you bothering with such a beast?

21:35:16 <DavidW2> I don't think that relates to triples exactly, but the fact that one needs to know what to expect in a document even in order to maintain it's state (presumably) at leats for an event driven parser

21:35:21 <DanC> sax2 parsers are free, no?

21:35:28 <dajobe> xslt requires namespaces too

21:35:33 <DavidW2> sure, they are free

21:36:00 <DavidW2> I'm wonder how namespaces fit in, you look at RDF I think 3 different groups are involved, one is "dc" and I guess there are a couple others

21:36:13 <dajobe> DavidW2: I suggest you try some rss sites for xslt sheets and pick up some free tools that do handle rss 1.0

21:36:38 * DanC wonders what DavidW2 is trying to do

21:37:07 <DavidW2> I have not found an RSS Parser which specifically uses an RDF parser. I have already written one using plain SAX2

21:37:41 <DavidW2> I wish I knew what I was doing. I've always said that was the first step, but usally it's the last thing I figure out :)

21:38:11 <dajobe> I would say start at http://blogspace.com/rss/ but AaronSw site seems down at moment

21:38:33 <AaronSw> this might work: http://web.archive.org/blogspace.com/rss/

21:38:39 <dajobe> :)

21:39:04 <DavidW2> that second one works

21:39:21 <dajobe> I've a few links at http://ilrt.org/discovery/rdf/resources/#sec-rss

21:42:43 <DavidW2> indeed

21:43:43 <DavidW2> Another project I like is jXUL, but it seems dead. I would have thought the slowness of Java plus the slowness of Awing plus the slowness of XML was a losing combiantion, but it seemed okay. Unfortunately, it doesn't work with the latest JDK.

21:43:50 * dajobe wasn't being ironic; I meant I had a few rss links there, aaron is more up to date

21:45:09 <DavidW2> I remember the days when W3C put out like one spec a year. Now there's like one gazillion XML realted specs :P

21:45:13 <dajobe> sorry, nevery heard of jXUL

21:45:35 <dajobe> well, java has a *few* apis now too :)

21:46:28 <DavidW2>http://www.jxul.org/

21:46:28 <dc_rdfig> E: http://www.jxul.org/ from DavidW2

21:46:41 <DavidW2> It's remotely related to RDF :P

21:47:48 <DavidW2> It's not the Java API's that worries me. It's damn Apache. They have such a hierarchy of projects, and I'm sure no one has taken the time to figure out hwo they all fit together. Plus they have a separate xml project in addition to jakarta,

22:36:32 <DanC> "I intend to make those annotations a life document on the Web, but due to a fatal design flaw in creation there are only 24 hours in a day..."

22:36:37 <DanC> -- Frank vH, in www-webont-wg

22:39:33 * AaronSw smiles, files bug report

22:40:22 * tomc sympathises, wastes an hour or so

22:49:47 <DanC> so tim, gottaminute about http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/ppt-bank/ ?

22:50:18 <timbl-wall> timbl-wall is now known as theWall

22:50:30 <theWall> Nope, gotta go.

22:50:33 * DanC gathers timbl-wall is being projected out timbl's office window to the wall of the neighboring building at LCS

22:50:48 <theWall> Privacy warning: This channel is displayed on a concrete wall outside myoffice

22:50:55 <theWall> :)

22:52:14 <tomc> "Hello Mum!"

22:54:48 <AaronSw> heh, awesome!

22:55:48 <AaronSw> AaronSw has changed the topic to: Semantic Web Chat | Projected live on a brick wall at MIT | http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/

22:55:59 <AaronSw> AaronSw has changed the topic to: Semantic Web Chat | Projected live on a concrete wall at MIT | http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/

22:57:50 <DanC> we have probably 15 minutes 'till the screensaver kicks in ;-)

23:01:39 * tomc wonders if he wants to broadcast anything to the wrong side of the Atlantic

23:01:47 <tomc> s/wrong/other/

23:02:10 <AaronSw> Heh. So did Tim get a new projector or is he just trying to entertain the people down below?

23:05:23 <DanC> D:"Because ACL2 is first-order, we cannot directly assert properties about the domain and range of functions." try replacing p(s, o) with propertyValue(p,s,o). i.e. use one 3-place predicate for all RDF triples

23:05:23 <dc_rdfig> added comment D3

23:19:23 <connolly>http://www.lfcs.informatics.ed.ac.uk/reports/91/ECS-LFCS-91-180/

23:19:23 <dc_rdfig> F: http://www.lfcs.informatics.ed.ac.uk/reports/91/ECS-LFCS-91-180/ from connolly

23:19:31 <connolly> F:|The Polyadic pi-Calculus: A Tutorial

23:19:31 <dc_rdfig> titled item F

23:19:39 <connolly> F:by Robin Milner

23:19:39 <dc_rdfig> added comment F1

23:37:18 <em>http://www.lita.org/ital/ital2101.html#anchor173810

23:37:18 <dc_rdfig> G: http://www.lita.org/ital/ital2101.html#anchor173810 from em

23:37:28 <em> G:|SPECIAL ISSUE: Open Source Software

23:37:29 <dc_rdfig> titled item G

23:37:51 <em> grove: bookmarking so i'll find this again...

23:37:55 <em> G:bookmarking so i'll find this again...

23:37:55 <dc_rdfig> added comment G1

23:38:23 <em> G:Various bits about RDF, open source tools in the library community and the goals of open source data

23:38:23 <dc_rdfig> added comment G2

23:39:44 <sbp> Hmm... the ppt-bank stuff is quite neat

23:44:07 <sbp> although CWM gives me more errors when I try to run it

23:45:33 <sbp> new one:-

23:45:34 <sbp> [[[

23:45:34 <sbp> File "/home/2000/10/swap/llyn.py", line 1299, in _toPython

23:45:34 <sbp> raise RuntimeError("Can't find value of list --maybe in store? "+`x`)

23:45:34 <sbp> RuntimeError: Can't find value of list --maybe in store? _g21

23:45:35 <sbp> ]]]

23:50:50 <AaronSw> G:including "The EOR Toolkit: An Open Source Solution for RDF Metadata"

23:50:50 <dc_rdfig> added comment G3