Semantic Web Interest Group IRC Chat Logs for 2002-04-27

00:14:54 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Hi all. We've just shut down a main rotation server provided by one of our corporate sponsors, which was experiencing severe packet loss. Please bear with us.

01:04:13 <danbri>http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=172450

01:04:13 <dc_rdfig> A: http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=172450 from danbri

01:04:27 <danbri> A:|Redfoot 1.5.1 Released

01:04:27 <dc_rdfig> titled item A

01:04:39 <danbri> A:Python fans take note...

01:04:39 <dc_rdfig> added comment A1

01:05:17 <danbri> A:"Redfoot 1.5.1, the second release in a new development series[1] is now available. ...introduces a console interface, adds more documentation, and contains a fair amount of cleanup. "

01:05:17 <dc_rdfig> added comment A2

01:05:43 <danbri> A:See also [http://redfoot.sourceforge.net/doc/versions.html|Redfoot Version Conventions]

01:05:43 <dc_rdfig> added comment A3

01:12:43 <danbri> ftp://ftp.o-r-g.org/pub/moo/

01:12:52 <danbri> oops, no chump ftp

01:13:03 <danbri> BLURB:Rob/Azaroth's MOO file downloads

01:13:04 <dc_rdfig> B: Rob/Azaroth's MOO file downloads from danbri

01:14:16 <danbri> B:[ftp://ftp.o-r-g.org/pub/moo/|FTP site] includes SyrinniaCore (oldish but includes IRC code); LiverpoolCore (recent); MOO-1.8 -- server, slightly patched.

01:14:17 <dc_rdfig> added comment B1

11:34:46 <sbp-> sbp- is now known as sbp

12:20:14 <danbri>http://www.w3.org/2001/12/rubyrdf/dataquery.html

12:20:14 <dc_rdfig> C: http://www.w3.org/2001/12/rubyrdf/dataquery.html from danbri

12:20:44 <danbri> C:|RDF query and data services in RubyRDF -- added screenshot of RDFAuthor(swing) talking SOAP to RubyRDF query server :)

12:20:44 <dc_rdfig> titled item C

12:21:11 <danbri> C:Sample data is an aggregation of RSS event feeds from the Economics LTSN site

12:21:11 <dc_rdfig> added comment C1

12:55:57 <azaroth> .lastseen danbri

14:56:38 <danbri> azaroth?

14:56:53 <edd> yay!

14:57:07 * danbri last seen jaywalking around Bristol with Libby and Damian, reading 'The Crack up' by scott fitz.

14:57:16 <edd> hey, i just read that.

14:57:16 * danbri decides not to become an alcoholic writer

14:57:23 <danbri> cost me 50p :)

14:57:42 <edd> you could have had my copy for nothing. anyway, what's with you *reading* your books? i heard you just stockpiled them

14:58:56 <danbri> archived, _please_

14:59:11 <edd> getting scary

14:59:16 <danbri> I read lots of chunks of books

14:59:37 <danbri> in rotation, chapter here, chapter there. Attention surplus syndrome ;-)

15:00:27 <edd> so, i saw dajobe's ruby i/f to redland

15:01:14 <edd> have you written anything with it yet?

15:04:17 * edd dying from trying to edit XML Europe papers.

15:04:32 <edd> i have learnt one thing: the so-called XML industry isn't so great at writing documents in XML

15:04:58 <hBijan> Heh. Hav eyou browse many "SemanticWeb" websites?

15:05:12 <edd> no

15:05:15 <edd> i can't read N3

15:05:19 <hBijan> Heheheh.

15:05:19 <larsbot> yeah, all the XML distributed on the XML conference CD-ROMs is non-well-formed

15:05:24 * larsbot would like to see that fixed

15:06:00 * larsbot manually fixed the data on the XML 2001 and XML Europe 2001 ones, and it was no fun at all

15:06:18 <edd> heh, i'm manually fixing for Europe 2002 :)

15:06:22 <edd> and, it is No Fun

15:06:30 <edd> although they're all WF and mostly valid this year.

15:06:37 <edd> There's still plenty of scope for error.

15:06:48 <larsbot> well, much of it was valid when it was submitted, but some script screwed them up afterwards...

15:07:52 <larsbot> do you intend to make the XML versions available this year?

15:08:37 <edd> Good question.

15:08:42 <larsbot> :)

15:09:04 <larsbot> usually there has been XML together with Michel's topic map

15:09:25 <edd> we're not having that this year.

15:09:49 <larsbot> I see

15:09:49 <edd> I've prioritized usable proceedings as much as possible over showy thingummydoodads

15:09:59 <larsbot> makes sense to me :)

15:14:06 <azaroth> hi danbri, just got back from afk, back for real in a few (need to put away shopping)

15:17:15 <danbri> afk?

15:17:25 <edd> away from keyboard

15:26:33 <azaroth> danbri: Couldn't connect to 7777 ?

15:30:48 <danbri> you couldn't, or I couldn't?

15:30:54 <azaroth> I couldn't...

15:31:21 <danbri> ssh tunnel folded, try again.

15:31:26 <danbri> oh, not yet...

15:31:29 <danbri> slow start...

15:31:45 <danbri> ok, telnet://rdfweb.org:7777 should get you in

15:32:13 <danbri> (this is a MOO installation, for interested observers. feel free to nose... don't go building homesteads there just yet though!)

15:34:40 <azaroth> (Not that you could by default anyway)

15:36:04 <danbri> Apr 27 15:50:50: CONNECTED: Wizard (#2) on port 7777 from fireball.danbri.org, port 39203

15:36:04 <danbri> Apr 27 15:51:39: WIZARDED: #881 by programmer #2

15:36:04 <danbri> Apr 27 15:51:39: #-1:Input to EVAL, line 3: Wizard bit set.

15:36:23 <azaroth> That would be me

15:36:42 <azaroth> Setting you with superuser powers

15:36:44 * danbri gains strange new powers

15:37:01 <danbri> @examine me

15:37:01 <danbri> danbri (#881) is owned by danbri (#881).

15:37:01 <danbri> Aliases: danbri

15:37:01 <danbri> You see a wizard who chooses not to reveal its true appearance.K

15:37:21 <danbri> thanks. The MOO core ships with standard wizard user account?

15:37:35 <danbri> I mean, how you do that? :)

16:18:41 * edd notes debian packages for openoffice now available.

16:49:57 * danbri waves to the syrinnians

16:51:05 <danbri> azaroth, is synrinnia gated here, or to CNN?

16:51:20 <danbri> I'm not seeing anythin from the MOO end...

16:51:40 * danbri expects #rdfig folk to tolerate these experments for The Greater Good

16:52:25 <azaroth> Here, but it's set to condense text. When listening to CNN it was toooooo painful to hear everything in 40 character chunks

16:52:47 <azaroth> this should go straight through

16:53:27 <danbri> cool

16:53:45 <danbri> is it 2-way? I tried from the other end, no sign of text here yet.

16:54:11 <dmiles-> danbri? hrh ;>

16:54:28 <dmiles-> take a look http://12.225.207.235:8080/logicmoo/index.jsp

16:55:08 <dmiles-> goto Create New Hero

16:55:23 <dmiles-> oh under NPC agetn

16:55:59 <dmiles-> there you are . this is the begining of the creation page

16:56:20 <dmiles-> also the Area menu should be working

16:56:22 <danbri> "The name Danbri is not the name of a known HumanCyclist."

16:56:27 <danbri> :)

16:56:35 <dmiles-> ah use CycAdmninistrator

16:56:47 <danbri> 'use'?

16:56:49 <dmiles-> CycAdministrator

16:57:01 <dmiles-> as your cyclcist name

16:57:27 <dmiles-> i am going to create a new create HumanCyclist page as well i guess ;P

16:57:47 * danbri bit confused, but happily clicks on stuff

16:57:58 <dmiles-> heh thats all iots about ;P

16:58:02 <dmiles-> at least so far

16:58:20 <dmiles-> but the green menu that disapeaed on the top is really what is becoming

16:58:38 <dmiles-> you'll get it back if you bit confused, but happily clicks on stuff

16:58:38 <dmiles-> [10:01] <dmiles->

16:58:53 <dmiles-> oops

16:59:05 <dmiles-> you'll get it back if you http://12.225.207.235:8080/logicmoo/index.jsp

16:59:59 <danbri> I see java

17:00:04 <dmiles-> some of the menu itms work..

17:00:11 <danbri> or js?

17:00:30 <dmiles-> no way.. oh its supposed to be nextcape + IE compaible

17:00:41 <dmiles-> oops.. i only tried IE

17:00:53 <danbri> opera!

17:01:01 <dmiles-> its a menu drawing thing i didnt write

17:01:15 <dmiles-> that i picked out becasue it was supposed to work on most all browsers

17:01:27 <dmiles-> oh expect that

17:01:36 <dmiles-> err ecept that

17:02:02 <dmiles-> hrrm i should make a page that gives all the links

17:02:18 <dmiles-> there is about 15 creation options

17:02:37 <dmiles-> that lets you define new Funtions/Predicates/Room/Players etc

17:03:14 <danbri> Is there a public stable copy running that one can log into?

17:03:38 <dmiles-> well its up and down all morning.. but thats something that *should* be done

17:04:01 <dmiles-> java makes me recompile and kill the site each time i moduify

17:04:20 <danbri> rewrite it in ruby ;-)

17:04:34 <danbri> the ruby irc stuff lets me hot-reload modules without removing the bot from the channel

17:04:44 <dmiles-> here is one page http://12.225.207.235:8080/logicmoo/newmtfile.jsp

17:04:59 <dmiles-> oh well i have a CycLBot that does dynamic

17:05:20 <dmiles-> he compiles my java dynamicly..

17:05:27 <dmiles-> but not the main class reshappuing

17:05:37 <dmiles-> since i am adding static methods

17:05:44 <azaroth> And this is run out of a lambdamoo ?

17:05:54 <danbri> prolog

17:05:58 <dmiles-> no out of a Moo that i am building with a firend

17:06:06 <dmiles-> the moo lives and exists out of XML

17:06:30 * azaroth nods

17:06:31 <danbri> is it animated via prolog code? java code?

17:06:44 <dmiles->http://12.225.207.235/offt/sourceforge/logicmoo/src/ini/

17:06:44 <dc_rdfig> D: http://12.225.207.235/offt/sourceforge/logicmoo/src/ini/ from dmiles-

17:06:48 <dmiles-> grrp

17:06:57 <dmiles-> java code

17:07:00 <danbri> chumpings good

17:07:12 <dmiles-> D: Initialization files for LogicMoo

17:07:12 <dc_rdfig> added comment D1

17:07:18 <dmiles-> D|: Initialization files for LogicMoo

17:07:24 <dmiles-> D:| Initialization files for LogicMoo

17:07:25 <dc_rdfig> titled item D

17:07:36 <edd> D1:""

17:07:37 <dc_rdfig> deleted comment D1

17:08:06 <dmiles-> starts with http://12.225.207.235/offt/sourceforge/logicmoo/src/ini/root/midgaard.xml

17:08:32 <dmiles-> we are switching to new XML handler since our old one was choking on namespaces

17:09:00 <dmiles-> so the Mud animates the objects

17:09:13 <dmiles-> Cyc and prolog animate the Non player charictoers

17:10:01 <dmiles-> been doing a better writup at http://logicmoo.sourceforge.net/

17:10:16 <dmiles-> it explains the process of the three goals

17:11:30 * azaroth pokes Syrinnia

17:12:17 <dmiles-> but man the coding of this infrastructure is way easy

17:12:31 <dmiles-> sincv ei been at it for a while ;P

17:12:56 <dmiles-> getting a stable machine up .. hrrm i can do that

17:13:08 <dmiles-> cyccorp i know wants the bot to stay online for one

17:13:11 <syrinnia> Testing.

17:13:14 <danbri> IRC will rot away, and we'll be left in XML-based MOOs mixed w/ web services, RDF data sources, and mass-market Instant Messangers as main UI.

17:13:16 <danbri> IMHO.

17:13:55 <azaroth> IRC will live on due to DCC for the mean time. Until pron gets done in SVG at least ;)

17:13:58 <dmiles-> well irc is an existintg infra we all count on least right now

17:14:08 <danbri> yes, won't be gone in a hurry.

17:15:14 <dmiles-> here is a cyc donp into rooms http://12.225.207.235:8080/logicmoo/areas.jsp

17:15:39 <dmiles-> uits more a debug page but.. now cyc queies reify into rooms of the Moo

17:16:26 <syrinnia> Wizard says, "Tap Tap.. is this thing on?"

17:16:33 <dmiles-> me an my infernal MS stsylsheets

17:17:04 <dmiles-> there telnet://12.225.207.235:8808/

17:17:25 <syrinnia> Wizard hopes for no feedback.

17:17:29 <dmiles-> now queries of bordersOn .. in the next hour will create exits between rooms

17:17:36 <azaroth> danbri: fixed

17:17:59 <dmiles-> no p[layer name prompt?

17:18:11 <dmiles-> 8808

17:18:38 <dmiles-> i see danbri

17:19:25 <dmiles-> say hi there

17:19:30 <dmiles-> hah

17:19:44 * danbri logs into dmiles' server too, realises he knows no commands

17:19:49 <dmiles-> still easier in here

17:19:52 <xovver> xovver is now known as xover

17:20:12 <dmiles-> @ create room new place

17:20:24 <dmiles-> with the @ sign

17:20:54 <dmiles-> i need a telelport command for all players until the room links are finished

17:21:42 <dmiles-> whats nasty is the whole thing gets recomplied between changes

17:21:49 <dmiles-> buty platyer data will now persist

17:23:32 <dmiles-> odd java.lang.IllegalThreadStateException

17:25:01 <dmiles-> hrrm well anyways.. roomnms should be connected shortly

17:25:35 <dmiles-> just a few steps above vvapourware still

17:26:05 <dmiles-> but most of the really hard stuff is over with

17:27:15 <dmiles-> we just changed the crazy object model from object->container->object->container to object->object->object

17:28:25 <dmiles-> so now everything is a bit easier

17:28:47 <dmiles-> and now its just instancing with alot of information + addingh tons of player commands

17:29:09 <syrinnia> danbri says, "can #rdfig hear me from the MOO yet?"

17:29:18 <danbri> exccllent :)

17:29:36 * azaroth thinks that actions work too

17:29:43 <syrinnia> Wizard says, "Yup"

17:29:47 <syrinnia> danbri says, "I want to run up a copy of this on a w3c box sometime, for folk who have telnet access but no IRC"

17:30:07 <syrinnia> danbri emote tries emoting

17:30:19 <dmiles-> well actually you can invoke the irc bot.. its almost done in the moo.. they raun in the same object pole

17:30:37 <dmiles-> bsh: jamudInstance

17:30:38 <CycLBot> jamud.Jamud@7e8c4d

17:30:38 <syrinnia> danbri tries emoting in the MOO

17:30:44 * danbri emotes back from IRC

17:30:51 <danbri> logger, pointer

17:30:51 <danbri> See http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2002-04-27#T17-30-51

17:31:24 <syrinnia> Wizard says, "logger, pointer"

17:31:54 <dmiles-> wow syrinnia is a MOO bot?

17:32:08 <dmiles-> neat

17:32:11 <syrinnia> danbri says, "Yes, syrinnia is Azaroth's MOO"

17:32:24 <dmiles-> excelent!

17:32:27 <syrinnia> danbri me sends a note to Larry Masinter

17:32:29 <azaroth> Currently I'm corifying it for Dan

17:32:49 <azaroth> As I doubt that W3C folks really want to run around pretending to be vampires ;)

17:32:53 <dmiles-> ah opne strong image

17:33:24 * danbri intends to build a room with a huge mechanical rubberstamp

17:33:30 <dmiles-> an image that contains no data yet?

17:33:48 <dmiles-> i see so rooms really are chumpped cool

17:33:58 <azaroth> Can I change the topic (technically and socially) to see if it'll update via the link?

17:34:26 <dmiles-> what language is the moo in?

17:34:43 <azaroth> Err, MOO ?

17:34:58 <dmiles-> or mud?

17:35:16 <azaroth> Which is to say that it's Xerox's LambdaMOO server, running a seriously heavily modified lambdaCore

17:35:17 <dmiles-> is it in C to start?

17:35:18 <danbri> MOOScript, I tend to think of it of.

17:35:20 <danbri> s/of/as/

17:35:32 <dmiles-> ah

17:35:37 * dmiles- awakens

17:35:58 <dmiles-> thats awesome you took an existing ifrastrutre

17:36:06 <dmiles-> and buffing it out heavily

17:36:27 <dmiles-> so that you can build rooms from webpages

17:37:22 * azaroth doesn't follow.

17:37:31 <dmiles-> inside the moo

17:37:33 <azaroth> I haven't done that, but it could be done very easily.

17:37:46 <dmiles-> ah .. soon though ;P

17:38:05 <azaroth> I've no great desire to write that sort of code, but it'd be not difficult to do.

17:38:18 <azaroth> More interestingly is: http://liverpool.o-r-g.org:8000/code/object?2

17:38:44 <azaroth> Which maps every last line of code from the game into webspace with lots of nice links between it all

17:39:02 <azaroth> I should link it from the home page so that google crawls it ;)

17:39:52 <dmiles-> hehe :)

17:40:37 <deltab> azaroth: that server thinks not found is "200 OK"

17:40:40 <azaroth> I got somewhat bored of writing Web/MOO code after writing a 100x300 grid of rooms maintained in virtual MOO space which mapped into the web via DHTML where you could move things aroudn with

17:41:06 <azaroth> But that's Syrinnia rather than Liverpool

17:41:38 <dmiles-> =que hello there

17:42:07 <deltab> azaroth: it should be 404 instead

17:42:12 <azaroth> deltab: Yeah, my web server isn't very compliant I know

17:42:13 <dmiles-> i have only mouse pointer and way too many monitors

17:42:40 * danbri remembers Azaroth once dumped syrinnia as triples for RDF experimentation

17:42:55 <danbri>http://cvs.ilrt.org/cvsweb/rudolf-perl/samples/verbmoo.rdf?rev=1.3&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup

17:42:55 <dc_rdfig> E: http://cvs.ilrt.org/cvsweb/rudolf-perl/samples/verbmoo.rdf?rev=1.3&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup from danbri

17:43:22 <danbri> E:|Using a Perl RDF API to associate behaviour with MOO models represented in RDF.

17:43:22 <dc_rdfig> titled item E

17:43:44 <danbri> E:Undocumented. Obsolete. To be rebuilt in Ruby (at some point).

17:43:44 <dc_rdfig> added comment E1

17:43:57 <danbri> print (" ", moo_name $here , " \nLooking around, you can see:\n");

17:43:58 <danbri> print ("Details: ", moo_description $here , "\n");

17:44:08 <danbri> I love this -- who can accuse RDF APIs of being complex? :)

17:44:15 <dmiles-> if you loaded and stored triples enoughh eventually you would want to load any triples

17:45:39 <dmiles-> very neat

17:46:36 <danbri> Azaroth, I'm wondering which mainstream languages are closest to MOO's own. Javascript? Perl? Ruby? It seems migrating the MOO server to a more modern OO scripting language (not JAva or Prolog!) would make sense.

17:47:43 * edd /leverage/ && die()

17:47:53 <syrinnia> danbri says, "http://cvs.ilrt.org/cvsweb/rudolf-perl/t/moo.pl?rev=1.5&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup"

17:48:20 <syrinnia> danbri says, "OK, we can't use the chump annotation tool via the IRC bridge as it stands. Never mind."

17:48:59 <azaroth> (a) Javascript is the closest in my opinion, but I've not looked at Ruby

17:48:59 <syrinnia> danbri says, "That URL is some nasty perl for a toy MOO interpreter 'go north', 'hit troll with sword' etc., except it doesn't have a proper command parser yet."

17:49:24 <azaroth> (b) Yes. I'll add a way to do it, but they'll be chumped by Syrinnia

17:49:57 <danbri> that's ok I guess.

17:50:24 <azaroth> The problem is bootstrapping a database to a useful point in a new server environment

17:50:25 <danbri> we could echo each MOO user into IRC separately, if people cared that much.

17:50:49 * azaroth nods.

17:51:00 <danbri> Chat's the main thing; think of IRC as Very Boring MOO. It has almost no behaviours (a few bots). Yet folk use it.

17:51:44 <syrinnia> Wizard goes to add in a send straight to irc command

17:52:25 <danbri> ruby quickly: http://www.math.sci.hokudai.ac.jp/~gotoken/ruby/ruby-uguide/uguide02.html

17:52:39 <danbri> OO ruby examples: http://www.math.sci.hokudai.ac.jp/~gotoken/ruby/ruby-uguide/uguide14.html (javascript weak on OO)

17:53:21 <syrinnia> logger, pointer

17:53:21 <syrinnia> See http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2002-04-27#T17-53-21

17:54:40 <syrinnia> Wizard says, "|"

17:54:53 <syrinnia> foo

17:54:55 * danbri notices a lag between MOO and IRC

17:55:03 <danbri> x

17:55:10 <azaroth> Probably my gf downloading stuff on our dsl ;)

17:55:13 <syrinnia> danbri says, "xx"

17:55:16 <danbri> :)

17:55:52 <danbri> I wonder what the current state of play is with AOL instant messanger -- can scripts still talk to it?

17:55:59 <danbri> IRC and MOO are kinda geeky...

17:56:13 <danbri> millions of people use the mass market messengers though

17:56:21 <azaroth> I've seen MOO<->Jabber implementations

17:56:24 <azaroth> But not AOL

17:56:34 <danbri> MOO/Jabber: oooh! pointer?

17:56:43 <danbri> .google moo jabber

17:56:44 <xena> moo jabber: http://ahynes1.homeip.net:8000/moo/jabber.htm

17:56:51 <azaroth> Tada

17:57:04 <azaroth> Does that use their funky web api ?

17:57:16 * edd dies

17:57:19 <danbri> "This project sets a MOO server to listen for and respond to

17:57:26 <danbri> jabber messages"

17:57:55 <danbri> Is that code available? any chance you could install it in your core, Azaroth?

17:58:03 <azaroth> I can get that code from Aldon easily enough. I helped him out a while back on some stuff

17:58:14 <danbri> do it, do it! :) :)

17:58:33 * danbri not even a jabber user, but still...

17:58:58 <danbri> some Jabber servers gateway to AOL, if we're happy stacking up 4 levels of translation...

17:59:22 <azaroth> Let me see if he's around

18:00:25 <danbri>http://ahynes1.homeip.net:8000/moo/connectivity.htm

18:00:25 <dc_rdfig> F: http://ahynes1.homeip.net:8000/moo/connectivity.htm from danbri

18:00:51 <danbri> F:|MOO connectivity projects (IRC, Jabber, XML etc)

18:00:51 <dc_rdfig> titled item F

18:00:56 * danbri takes a break

18:04:05 <azaroth> Ahh, jabber is in lilyCore as well

18:08:40 <danbri> how many cores are there under active(ish) development?

18:09:11 <azaroth> Good question. There's about three different mud style cores, a couple of edu ones, mine...

18:09:12 <danbri> more questions: how is code shared? do you dump an object and all its parts to a single text file (load/save...)?

18:09:54 <azaroth> Another good question. There's no universal way of porting code between one game and another apart from @dumping the object, logging the output and pasting it in

18:10:11 <danbri> urk

18:10:51 <danbri> does dumping the object deal with dependencies, packaging etc adequately? is there a @dump-recursive or similar?

18:10:55 <azaroth> I've got my own significantly easier way, but ...

18:11:52 <azaroth> @dump can take some arguments that modify the output to make it easier to dump into a new game

18:12:14 <azaroth> But most of that is handled with the global variable registry in #0

18:12:43 <azaroth> eg $string_utils in code is mapped to the value of #0.string_utils

18:13:51 <danbri> Are there any hacks to the moo server to allow behaviours to be coded in more mainstream langauges? eg. eval'd perl?

18:14:02 <danbri> I've seen pure perl server etc. too...

18:15:20 <azaroth> Not really. I've heard that RHost4.0 is going to have modular language definition, but while Ashen and his folk are good coders, that seems like an impossibly big ask

18:15:45 <danbri> Rhost4.0?

18:15:51 <danbri> .google Rhost4.0 moo

18:15:51 <xena> no results found.

18:15:56 <danbri> .google Rhost moo

18:15:57 <xena> Rhost moo: http://www.godlike.com/pipermail/tinymush-support/2000-December/001254.html

18:15:58 <azaroth> Derivative of MUX

18:17:55 * danbri gives up on the chain of dependencies needed for Gabber

18:28:26 * edd mumbles something about debian

18:29:36 <danbri> yeah, I know. But i'm not yet motivated to dedicate a weekend to rebuilding this box (as server, dev machine, desktop).

18:29:54 <danbri> google's ok for finding rpms, actually. I'm getting there...

18:30:26 * edd hopes you're checking the md5 sums as you go.

18:30:47 <danbri> they're almost all off rpmfind.net, as it happens. I should probably be using DV's search tool...

18:33:18 * edd finding DV's software v. helpful with cleaning up these XML Europe papers

18:33:30 <edd> the job of editing the proceedings is tedious and thankless

18:34:32 <danbri> OK, it took 12 rpms to get Gabber running.

18:34:48 <danbri> or, nearly running. error conn3ecting to host...

18:38:17 <danbri> jabber.com seems to be offline.

18:39:15 * edd gave up on jabber ages ago

18:41:30 <danbri> it seemed pretty promising (some time back). what happened?

18:41:39 <danbri> (sounds like xml...)

18:42:15 <edd> i think what happened is pretty much what you're experiencing now.

18:42:36 <edd> it never got usable enough, and programs like GAIM got better, and meant there just was no need for it

18:42:45 <edd> although ORA have just pubbed a Jabber book, so i could yet be wrong

18:59:30 * azaroth blehs. Dratted Freeserve routers fell over

19:08:31 <danbri> ah, that explains where you went...

19:51:01 <edd> yeuch, a fie on all those who thing an abstract is a suitable home for bulleted lists.

19:51:12 <edd> think, even.

19:59:21 <syrinnia> Azaroth says, "Should be working?"

19:59:34 <syrinnia> Wizard says, "Seems to work fine :)"

19:59:45 <syrinnia> Wizard says, "faster connection too"

20:05:41 <syrinnia> /nick test

20:05:48 <syrinnia> Azaroth grins. Good.

20:13:50 * azaroth disappears to hunt down dinner

20:32:10 <SethR> anyone know a channel for mozilla?

21:31:06 <edd> larsbot: ping?

21:36:13 <danbri> (for SethR) mozilla: irc.mozilla.org #mozilla

21:39:41 <bijan> Hmm. Are these to be "famous last words" of Paul Prescod? -- """It will always be expensive to base-64 encode a megabyte document.""""

21:39:51 <bijan> From: http://www.xml.com/cs/user/view/cs_msg/578

21:52:59 <danbri> <danbri> (for SethR) mozilla: irc.mozilla.org #mozilla

21:53:15 <danbri> megabytes are the new bits, i hear

21:55:26 <edd> for all the fuss on topic mappers published subjects, i was amused to find the wide variance with which "topic maps" is rendered among papers on the subject for xml europe :)

22:00:20 <danbri> topic maps are the new old rdf, i hear

22:03:31 <edd> do topicmaps have anything like daml:equivalentTo ?

22:03:58 <edd> seems to be crying out for it, from my perspective here. but i have only shallow understanding of TMs

22:06:02 * edd sees the RSS-as-NOTE issue revived

22:07:02 <danbri> I think its kind of implicit, but not there as an xml element etc

22:07:52 <danbri> I'd support RSS-as-Note if if were 'here are some techniques from the community' not 'heres a spec, look W3C published it, wohoo...'

22:08:26 * danbri -> tv

22:10:35 <bijan> Perhaps the merging rules (for TM version of daml:equivalentTo)

22:10:53 <edd> aha. i think there's something we're missing somewhere.

22:11:16 <edd> the folks putting together the topic map are telling me that even different casing "topic map" vs. "Topic Map"

22:11:18 <edd> is an issue

22:11:34 <edd> and also "TopicMap" "topic maps"

22:11:42 <edd> it would be nice to have a way of squishing them

22:11:56 <bijan> May help: http://www.gca.org/papers/xmleurope2001/papers/html/s05-2.html#d28e10364

22:11:57 <edd> instead i have to decide on a canonical rendering and alter al the <keyword> elements individually

22:12:17 <bijan> This has the result that my the country which I call United Kingdom is the very same one that ISU calls UK, because NewsML has the rule that any two Topics that have the same FormalName in the same Scheme, are considered to be equivalent. This rule is more or less identical in intent to the constraint known as the Topic Naming Constraint,

22:12:31 <bijan> defined in XTM, which states that any two topics that have the same baseName in the same scope must be merged.

22:14:23 * edd -> shuteye

22:21:17 <SethR> thanks, danbri ... mozilla RC1 ROCKS !

23:40:11 <bijan> danbri, you around?