Semantic Web Interest Group IRC Chat Logs for 2002-05-09

00:00:06 <AaronSw-HI-US> confusagram: "grid is metadata based middleware"

00:01:40 <AaronSw-HI-US> "The scientific community already understands stuff like building ontologies." [ericm looks skeptical]

00:02:07 <AaronSw-HI-US> "data stays in the databases where it belongs ... i don't think putting databases into rdf is going to be very sensible"

00:05:13 <AaronSw-HI-US> "Semantic Web is part of the Grid vision?"

00:05:29 <AaronSw-HI-US> grid bigger than semantic web "because it encompasses all levels of middleware"

00:05:37 <AaronSw-HI-US> lots of collections of grids, not one grid

00:05:45 <niq> Grid == let's hijack lots of things?

00:06:01 <AaronSw-HI-US> Sounds like it. (cough)

00:06:09 <AaronSw-HI-US> "E-science loves xml and ignores rdf"

00:06:20 <niq> xml easy

00:07:10 <AaronSw-HI-US> jhendler: "Battle of the buzzwords" grid vs. semweb

00:07:30 <AaronSw-HI-US> "grid proposed for numeric algorithmic computing

00:08:21 <niq> OK, where do I find a grid spec? What, only a handwaving exercise?

00:09:05 <niq> what do I need to do to support grid in mod_xml? <gd&r>

00:09:10 <AaronSw-HI-US> I tried to find one and apparently there aren't any yet.

00:09:18 <AaronSw-HI-US> Ooh, seti@home is a grid app

00:10:07 <niq> Ah, I get it. All writing is grid, 'cos it's metadata in a broad sense?

00:11:03 <AaronSw-HI-US> Hey DanC

00:11:44 <DanC> hi

00:15:29 * jhendler is impressed that from the dais one can see lots of little glowing apples...

00:16:42 <edd> jhendler: i noticed that too :) i wonder if anyone else apart from me is running linux on them not macosx :)

00:17:27 * jhendler edd: I think most of us are running OS X to get best of both worlds

00:17:46 * edd smiles

00:21:07 <jhendler> carole - argues for some sort of standardization, and having grid use standard tools (which include sem web tools)

00:21:43 <dajobe-lap> you are on the web: http://photos.dajobe.org/gallery/www2002-hawaii/aam

00:22:37 <AaronSw-HI-US> sorry, my computer crashed. did someone /msg me?

00:23:36 <jhendler> dajobe - focus could be improved -- also, lighting is funny -- makes me look bald!

00:27:35 <timbl765> The overlap seems to be RDF -- ie database-level data but loosely structured. Grid needs all kinds of data, but a lot of it should be in RDF. Especially all the metadata/

00:28:13 <DanC> overlap between what and what, tim?

00:28:56 <timbl765> As a philosopher, PHB should realize that different groups use the same terms in different ways.

00:31:05 <timbl765> Overlap they were talking about re grid and semweb ... 98% of most applications willbe just the simple database-like rdf-level semweb. Not fancy ai-like things.

00:31:13 <danbri> PHB?

00:31:59 <AaronSw-HI-US> Philip Hallum Baker (sp?)

00:32:31 <timbl765> Phillip Hallam-Baker just, as accomplished philosopher, complained that ontology was being misused, is really a "system of being".

00:32:59 <jhendler> timbl - I agree with you completely - RDF kind of level for DBs, soe vocabulary localization (aka rdfs/owl) and then add some rules - and we can build a lot of what these folks need.

00:33:44 <edd> in w3c trackm art barstow asks why WSDL isn't an RDF application

00:34:05 <danbri> .google ontology

00:34:06 <xena> ontology: http://www.ontology.org/

00:35:49 <danbri> .google web ontology

00:35:49 <xena> web ontology: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/

00:35:49 <danbri> that settles it.

00:35:49 <danbri> ;)

00:35:49 <jhendler> in my sw talk later I mention that the term ontology has a 2000 year+ history...lots of ways it's been used in those years....

00:35:49 <jhendler> one of my grad students once did his foreign language comprehensive in Ancient greek translating a paper about ontologies...

00:36:06 <DanC> settles what? I think I'm getting half of a conversation

00:36:17 <DanC> well, my battery is dying anyway.

00:36:28 <danbri> a google search settles the meaning of a word. bad joke.

00:36:56 <AaronSw-HI-US> where are you, danc?

00:37:09 <DanC> in the W3C track

00:37:22 <AaronSw-HI-US> ah

00:37:23 * timbl765 will have to stand in the doorway

00:37:30 <timbl765> timbl765 is now known as tim-grid

00:38:11 <DanC> reagle's slide has about 300 words on it. I think that's too many

00:39:47 <jhendler> jhendler is now known as jim-grid

00:40:36 <AaronSw-HI-US> ericp: give things uris and move to binary relations, you're in the semantic web

00:41:02 <danbri> nice soundbitey claim.

00:43:30 <tim-grid> Whether you use URIs to identify things is not a syntactic issue

00:44:01 * tim-grid wonders which channel Ian Foster is on.

00:46:50 <jim-grid> jim-grid is now known as jah-confused

00:47:26 <jah-confused> eric proves grid is just semantic web, crowd goes wild, everyonegoes home.

00:47:28 * danbri wonders whether we could get people to use irc.openprojects.net:#www2002 by word of mouth

00:47:34 <danbri> ...and maybe a big sign somewhere?

00:50:43 <xena> error: [Errno socket error] (110, 'Connection timed out')

00:51:12 <jah-confused> jah-confused is now known as jah-rdf

00:51:41 <tim-grid> Why? Because what happens when you concatenate all the XML files? .... RDF ...?

00:53:27 <tim-grid> The ability to be able to just throw all your data into one file and query it is something you get as a single user.

00:55:01 <jah-rdf> yes, but see Jeff Heflin's point in the rdf-logic discussion today -- if we pull a lot of stuff that ends up being inconsistent together, rdf doesn't reeally have a way to notice/express/etc. that (Jeff said it better)

00:55:28 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Hi all. We have an interim patch for the services problems we've been experienced since relocating them. Apologies for the problems and we'll keep you informed of progress. Thank you for using OPN!

00:55:29 <AaronSw-HI-US> this is so depressing. i think rdf needs a rename or something

00:56:04 <dajobe-lap> carol has inconsistent FUD

00:58:11 <jah-rdf> foo - ian foster tries to get mirc working (from download) in real-time during panel - would be a new first - but doesn't look promising - :->

00:59:10 <tansaku_xf> jah-rdf: rdf can handle inconsistency if all triples are expressed relative to particular users

01:00:15 <jah-rdf> yes, but see the long discussions on layering - hard to do that contextualization w/o extedning rdf model.

01:01:00 <mnot> mnot is now known as mnot-lurk

01:01:12 <jah-rdf> jah-rdf is now known as jah-owl

01:01:22 <tansaku_xf> do you have a reference for the "discussions on layering" - I don't think I have a really concise document, but I think you can handle these things in existing rdf

01:01:38 * tansaku_xf asks for his triple format to be excused

01:02:03 <tansaku_xf> e.g. we have some triples a b c, d e f

01:02:04 <jah-owl> concise document...I wish - hundreds of email messages. see rdf-logic

01:02:25 <tansaku_xf> rdf-logic is a channel?

01:02:47 <jah-owl> sorry - hard to be on a panel and communicate at same time -- www-rdf-logic@w3.org

01:03:01 <jah-owl> archives are publicly readable.

01:03:27 <tansaku_xf> e.g. cont given that each triple can be encoded into a single uri: abc, def we are then able to specify user1 believes abc and user2 believes def

01:03:42 <tansaku_xf> jah-owl: sorry didn't realise you were on a panel

01:03:56 <tansaku_xf> .google www-rdf-logic

01:03:57 <xena> www-rdf-logic: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-logic/

01:04:18 * sbp manages to get eep3 to return lists from builtins

01:09:20 <mnot-lurk> sbp: eep3?

01:09:32 <tansaku_xf>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-logic/2001May/0229.html

01:09:33 <dc_rdfig> A: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-logic/2001May/0229.html from tansaku_xf

01:09:48 <tansaku_xf> oops, not sure how to add a title to that

01:09:56 <tansaku_xf> anyway that seems to cover discussion on layering

01:10:29 <tansaku_xf> seems like the issue is trying to determine which statements in a set of triples refer to actions/instructions regarding other triples

01:10:38 <sbp> mnot: eep3 is a little experimenal API that I've been hacking on for a while. it's a cousin of Aaron's infogami stuff (and we'll probably integrate it along the line)

01:11:15 <tansaku_xf> seems to me that you can solve the layer problem by specifying that particular sorts of statements exist in layer 1 and others in layer 2

01:11:20 <tansaku_xf> that's how NeuroGrid handles it

01:17:25 <mnot-lurk> sbp: sounds very interesting!

01:17:51 <mnot-lurk> please tell me when there's something for public consumption.

01:18:24 <sbp> just the modified Yapps grammar and an IRC bot for now...

01:18:58 <sbp> the API needs an awful lot of cleaning up before I put it on the Web :-)

01:34:06 <MarkB> cause we know that the Web is only for highly polished stuff. uh huh. 8-)

01:34:28 * sandro snarfles

01:34:44 <MarkB> bless you

01:34:51 <sbp> heh, heh

01:35:15 * MarkB wonders what would happen if he snarfled here in public

01:35:36 <edd>http://www.w3.org/2002/Talks/www2002-w3ct-swintro-em/

01:35:36 <dc_rdfig> B: http://www.w3.org/2002/Talks/www2002-w3ct-swintro-em/ from edd

01:35:53 <edd> B:|WWW2002 W3C Track - The Semantic Web

01:35:53 <dc_rdfig> titled item B

01:36:00 <edd> B:by Eric Miller

01:36:00 <dc_rdfig> added comment B1

01:36:54 <libby> wow, there's _loads_ of people here

01:37:33 <dajobe-lap> in the w3c semweb room? yeah

01:38:39 <libby> maybe 150-200?

01:38:45 <danbri> nobody's heckling yet

01:39:23 <libby> boo hiss etc etc (jus' kiddin')

01:39:28 <libby> go eric!

01:40:52 <libby> "cost effective for people to record their knowledge" - i like that :)

01:41:24 <libby> brian McB is up

01:41:53 <jah-owl> jeez, maybe this sem web stuff is for real, wow!

01:42:06 <libby> yeah, I know

01:42:15 <libby> scared? ;)

01:42:49 <jah-owl> mainly scared that my WG still doesn't realize how important what we're doing really is

01:43:01 <libby> brian asks for feedback on drafts from rdfcore, and also wants people to try the testcases

01:43:35 <libby> talking of webont, peter p-s has a paper - is he about?

01:44:46 <libby> brian is doing a summary of RDF

01:44:54 <jah-owl> I don't think he is here, I think the other author is presenting it.

01:45:07 <libby> I guess if the sweb is popular it make sthese talks harder

01:45:13 <libby> ah

01:45:32 <jah-owl> depends - some of us like large crowds :->

01:45:33 <edd> this session already an order of magnitude better than the same one last year.

01:45:51 <libby> yeah?

01:46:08 <libby> I didnt think theer was a sweb track last year?

01:46:32 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Hi all. We hope we've resolved the services problems for the time being. As a byproduct of this temporary fix, please specify only numeric indexes when deleting an entry from a channel access list. Thanks.

01:46:59 <edd> libby: this is the w3c track..

01:47:35 <libby> is it?

01:47:39 <libby> oh...

01:52:07 <jah-owl> semweb workshop and rdf workshop were also both heavily attended I'm told

01:52:34 <libby> cool :)

01:54:24 <libby> brian says: test cases represent each of the decisions the working group has made, though not a full conformance suite

01:54:56 <libby> - wants feedback about how implementations fare wrt the testcases

01:55:32 <dajobe-lap> I actually got feedback on the TC WD today, which looks like finding some bugs

01:55:37 <dajobe-lap> s/finding/it found/

01:55:46 <edd> from bij?

01:55:51 <dajobe-lap> no

01:56:02 <dajobe-lap> Vangelis Vassiliadis

01:56:20 <libby> brian would like feedback about preliminary datatypes document

01:56:40 <libby> wow, 55 issues closed and resolved!

01:59:09 <libby> jim is up next

02:00:05 <libby> - he's going to talk about ontologies a bit as well as about what work going in the WG. esp usecases.

02:01:24 <danbri> can someone read the url for the talk?

02:01:31 <libby> not me...

02:02:02 <www2002> www2002 is now known as AaronSw-WWW2002

02:02:16 <dajobe-lap> for brians talk?

02:02:17 <edd> www.w3.org/2002/Talks/www2002-ont-jh/

02:02:22 <danbri> ta

02:02:28 <dajobe-lap> they are linked from erics

02:02:33 <libby> brian's would be good too

02:02:42 <edd> dajobe has that.

02:03:02 <dajobe-lap> Brian's slideshows of GIFs: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/www2002/img0.html

02:06:21 * danbri reminded of http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/categories.1.1.html

02:17:41 <libby> Ralph is up: SWAD: semantic web advanced development

02:18:58 <dajobe-lap> ralph http://www.w3.org/2002/Talks/0508-swad/

02:19:41 <libby> MIT (darpa-funded) and SWAD-Europe (hooray!)

02:20:12 <danbri> "MIT work focussed on w3c process...

02:20:24 <danbri> "document status... stages docs move through...

02:20:38 <danbri> "computers good at keeping track of mail messages in archives, records of decisions etc

02:20:56 * jah-owl notices danbri paying more attention to this talk than last :->

02:20:58 <danbri> "to be able to point to those meeting record docs, say those are the certificates that say a certain checkpoint has been met

02:21:29 <danbri> ...

02:21:45 * danbri was paying attention, just not logging

02:21:48 <danbri> rsi

02:22:14 <danbri> "...in order to do this stuff, we proposed to darpa to develop a framework for SW logic language(s)... reflected in tim's work...

02:22:30 <danbri> "an area important to me (ralph) is to use SW tech in support of collaborative work

02:22:53 <danbri> "...eg keeping track so when a question is revisited after 9 months, we can find points in archives

02:23:15 <danbri> "taking account of changing terminology over time, eg schema becomes ontology... to help archivists follow our line of reasoning.

02:23:27 * dajobe-lap notes the rdf core test cases WD manifest describes our decisions in machine readable form

02:23:30 <danbri> "looking at the w3c as an active dynamic organisation... we have lots of meetings... email, computer, ...

02:23:36 <danbri> "using tools to support those meetings

02:23:41 <danbri> dajobe: indeedy :)

02:23:51 <libby> archivist following our reasoning is very interesting app

02:24:01 <danbri> "...keeping track of this. some wgs like to know that a meeting had quorum...

02:24:12 <danbri> "these are some of the things using to demo kinds of apps these tools good for

02:24:29 <danbri> "v quickly... here are some of the pieces of modules we're working on... few slides on some...

02:24:39 <xena> error: [Errno socket error] (110, 'Connection timed out')

02:25:00 <danbri> "logic processor (cwm) is where we're working on some of the rule language and logic framework. rdf databases and query mechanisms, important to some of the other work, eg. annotations talked about in prev conferences

02:25:18 <danbri> "art did some substantial updates to our rdf validation service...

02:25:28 <danbri> "also a grammar based graph extractor (blindfold)

02:25:34 <danbri> (links from slides online btw)

02:25:54 <danbri> "idea of blindfold -- if you look at any structured data document, there is an rdf doc that it encodes

02:26:10 <danbri> "if you can express the grammar of the doc, you can feed it to blindfold with the doc and get the graph

02:26:14 <danbri> "eg. comma separated files

02:26:33 <danbri> "Also schema navigation tool, built on the redfoot tool built elsewhere.

02:26:42 * bwm waves

02:26:56 <danbri> cwm slide, http://www.w3.org/2002/Talks/0508-swad/slide5-0.html

02:27:01 <edd> argh, N3!

02:27:23 <dajobe-lap> don't scare off the newbies

02:27:23 <danbri> "this is a flavour of the kind of rules understood by cwm

02:27:28 * edd resolves to learn N3 soon, honest

02:27:40 <danbri> "the language this is written (ie N3) is easier to read on the screen, directly translates to xml/rdf

02:27:43 <libby> you know you want to

02:27:59 <edd> n3 is easier to write. i'm still unsure it's easier to read (for me)

02:28:43 <dajobe-lap> another bit of N3 non-RDF, since it includes {}s

02:28:56 <danbri> "example rule, defining notion of daml:TransitiveProperty: for all things we'll call P, if P is a TransitiveProperty, then ...

02:29:01 <danbri> (see slide; I'm not transcirbing this :)

02:29:20 <danbri> ({}s can be mapped into RDF, though could do it in various ways)

02:29:36 <dajobe-lap> darkly

02:29:41 <danbri> "so you write the rule, then give the rule engine (cwm) various kinds of facts, eg. that Ancestor is a TransitiveProperty

02:30:21 * bwm worries that this is not his idea of what the semantic web is about

02:30:32 <danbri> "...and some instance data... machine

02:31:35 <danbri> [...]

02:31:48 <danbri> "example of an Algae query, asking for properties of the ancestor predicate

02:31:54 <danbri> (explains context of WebOnt WG)

02:32:21 <danbri> "the query processor / language we're working on, EricP's principal developer; Algae has recently grown to have cwm-like capabilities.

02:32:34 <danbri> "can say: find me all the things that have ancestors

02:32:42 * jah-owl wonders why Ralph chose to show these particularly difficult ones, instead of (for example) W3C at a glance, whcih should how these things are used.

02:33:03 <danbri> "...can give it a rule about transitivity as w/ cwm, and we get more answers back from the query processor.

02:33:14 <danbri> ie. query protocol supports rules packaged w/ query.

02:33:43 <danbri> "RDF VAlidation service: a syntax validator... looking for a volunteer to help maintain with it.

02:33:52 <danbri> "considering adding schema validation / semantic validation

02:34:01 * danbri frowns at this prospect -- not a clear concept imho

02:34:08 <dajobe-lap> indeed

02:34:16 <danbri> "Annotea: built in w3c's editor/browser

02:34:28 <danbri> "want to extend annotea to more collaborative descriptions, cataloguing things

02:34:38 <danbri> hey bijan

02:34:44 <bijan> Hi ho!

02:34:48 * danbri logging bits of ralph's talk

02:34:50 <bwm> notes hp folks may have some feelings of involvement of annotation service since its based on arp

02:35:01 <danbri> it is?

02:35:04 <bwm> s/annotation/validation/

02:35:09 <danbri> ah, sure :)

02:35:13 <danbri> anno is perl

02:35:27 <danbri> "Zakim meeting Agent: ...particular w3c way of working with irc during teleoconferences

02:35:34 <jah-owl> zakim rules!

02:35:44 <jah-owl> (no pun intended)

02:35:48 <bwm> you haven't met Jema

02:35:48 <danbri> "...and during face to face meetings; helps w/ telephone meetings especially. who is talking, queue management etc

02:36:03 <danbri> "this has helped cut down on time wasted on admin in meetings...

02:36:19 <danbri> "hope also to be able to ask 'who is missing? who was expected but not yet present in phone/irc

02:36:36 <danbri> "...and to do this based on reading markup from Working Group pages

02:36:43 <bijan> Hey jim! Heard your talk went (or is going) well.

02:36:48 <danbri> "using tools like blindfold, xslt... to extract info into rdf form

02:36:52 <danbri> yes, it was good :)

02:37:10 <danbri> "...this an interesting context for investigating ideas on privacy that go beyond our existing p3p work

02:37:25 <bwm> jim's talk: +1

02:37:29 <danbri> "SWAD-EUrope: pleased to say that as of beginng of this month have some funding to expand in european context

02:37:31 <bijan> Yay!

02:37:32 <bijan> Go Team!

02:37:44 <danbri> "partnership between five instititutions (ilrt/hp/w3c/ral/stilo)

02:37:56 <danbri> "focus is integrating SW and other w3c technologies, esp xml technologies

02:38:12 <danbri> "in particular, this work is focussed on scenarios that help people u/stand how to pick amongst various w3c xml technologies

02:38:23 <danbri> "how to decided how to merge/use together things like svg, mathml, rdf...

02:38:41 <danbri> "how can we easily combine them, find out which work well together to meet application needs

02:38:48 <danbri> "and to hook up to other european work

02:38:59 <danbri> "example scenario: wanting to publish an organisational chart

02:39:00 <scobleizer> Hi conference attendees. Thanks for inviting me Aaron. Anyone keeping weblogs about the conference?

02:39:13 <danbri> "many w3c specs relevant. could use svg, xml schema, could use OWL/Webont and rdf schema

02:39:20 <danbri> "in fact you want all three of these at the same time

02:39:32 <bijan> That's sorta like playing twister, eh?

02:39:35 <danbri> "purpose of swad / adv devt here is to answer questions about how to combine these

02:39:37 <danbri> indeedy!

02:39:41 <danbri> (clapping)

02:39:44 <bijan> No soap?

02:39:56 <danbri> lots of soap, just not in that particular scenario

02:40:04 <danbri> s/soap/web services/

02:40:10 <danbri> Eric Miller's back on

02:40:14 <dajobe-lap> scobleizer: we have some links http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/index.html but not enough :)

02:40:15 <danbri> anyone wanna take over scribbling?

02:40:23 <danbri> ideally someone who is in the room !

02:40:24 <bijan> I *would*.

02:40:28 * danbri takes typing break

02:40:31 <bwm> k, for a bit

02:40:33 <danbri> yeah, sucks that you're not here

02:40:35 <danbri> thanks b

02:40:38 <bijan> Oh well.

02:40:40 <bijan> Maybe next year.

02:40:45 <bijan> Camp monkeyfist is going well.

02:40:50 <bwm> w3c home page has service for providing information

02:40:51 <bijan> And my Squeak presentation was good.

02:41:03 <bijan> Met alan kay and all those folks.

02:41:19 <bwm> integrated with google

02:41:27 <libby> eric is doing a demo

02:41:28 <bwm> I can't see the screen very well

02:41:41 <libby> the google search of the w3c site,, and then....

02:42:01 <dajobe-lap> I can see url, hold on

02:42:03 <bwm> extra info on right side of google page returned from rdf based search service

02:42:13 <dajobe-lap>http://tap.stanford.edu/w3c.html

02:42:13 <dc_rdfig> C: http://tap.stanford.edu/w3c.html from dajobe-lap

02:42:17 <libby> a google search of the site with w3c recommendations, notes etc in boxes on the right hand site

02:42:24 <bwm> use info to augment searching

02:42:30 <danbri> this is a demo of Guha and friends' Alpiri work (TAP KB)

02:42:35 <dajobe-lap> C:|W3C Google search demo with extra RDF

02:42:35 <dc_rdfig> titled item C

02:42:42 <dajobe-lap> C:|W3C Google search demo with extra RDF, Eric Miller

02:42:42 <dc_rdfig> titled item C

02:42:51 <bwm> lots of toolkits coming on line

02:43:08 <bwm> focus of sw dev day is to talk about those tools and applications

02:43:23 <bwm> TAP is one of the toolkits being presented

02:43:25 * danbri starts scribbling for a swad-europe faq

02:43:49 <bwm> simple api's to navigate graph

02:43:58 <bwm> integrates little bits of information

02:44:00 <dajobe-lap> C:no software available

02:44:00 <dc_rdfig> added comment C1

02:44:10 <libby> good plan danbri :)

02:44:28 <bwm> very interesting app that bridges web services, e.g. soap, and sw stuff

02:44:44 <bwm> TAP developed by Guha who is now at IBM

02:45:04 <dajobe-lap> ha ha

02:45:05 <bwm> TAP is open source

02:45:09 <dajobe-lap> but no source avail

02:45:29 <bwm> datasources that represent org structure

02:45:42 <bwm> the rdf killer app - creating org charts

02:46:00 <dajobe-lap> yeah, that'll kill rdf :)

02:46:24 <bwm> eric emphasizes data integration

02:46:39 <bwm> scribe note: that's what I think the sw is about

02:46:41 <edd> while i understand the advantages of turning SemWeb tech to solving internal W3C problems, it misses what I really want to know: what will SemWeb do *for me*?

02:47:01 <bwm> more bigger specs faster

02:47:06 <bwm> :)

02:47:13 <danbri> help w3c lead the web to its full potential...

02:47:14 <libby> data integration is the *only* reason to use rdf, I reckon

02:47:18 <danbri> ...for *you*

02:47:31 <danbri> (each and every one of you lucky citizens...)

02:47:35 <libby> 'course, you might want to integrate *any* information, so all information should be in RDF

02:47:51 <danbri> lib: nah, I still find it easier to write little standalone rdf apps than to use XML DOM, SAX

02:47:52 <bwm> another example

02:47:56 <danbri> maybe xslt narrows the gap

02:48:10 <bwm> searching for ian jacobs

02:48:17 <bwm> addition info about google

02:48:23 <bwm> additional info about ian

02:48:38 <bwm> gleaned from w3c RDF databases

02:48:48 <bwm> helps people to find information

02:48:49 <libby> danbri, me too, but that's often a hammer and looking for something to hit with it, dfor me at least

02:49:36 <bwm> reconfiguring of large knoweledge bases to meet new goals

02:50:05 <bwm> stitching together info from lots of different services to create a consistent whole

02:50:27 <xena> error: [Errno socket error] (110, 'Connection timed out')

02:51:06 <bwm> doing another example

02:51:18 <bwm> preliminary results so far

02:51:29 <bwm> took almost no time to build this service

02:51:36 <libby> pretty cool demo, get a pic of the person searched form top right

02:51:50 <danbri> did he mention soap?

02:51:51 <dajobe-lap>http://www.w3.org/2002/Talks/www2002-w3ct-swdemo-em/

02:51:52 <dc_rdfig> D: http://www.w3.org/2002/Talks/www2002-w3ct-swdemo-em/ from dajobe-lap

02:52:03 <bwm> Guha plugged for Dev day

02:52:05 <danbri> it sits on top of soap...

02:52:14 <dajobe-lap> D:|Eric Miller's Semweb demos

02:52:14 <dc_rdfig> titled item D

02:52:16 <bwm> A few issues:

02:52:35 <bwm> not all the information collected on the website are correctly integrated

02:52:46 <bwm> some info has different levels of access

02:52:52 <libby> ooh that's interesting: an issue: different privacy klevels

02:53:24 <bwm> sw security is unexplored territory?

02:53:54 <bwm> overall conclusion: it was exciting to see such rapid turnaround in building the application

02:54:09 <bwm> standards and services are maturing

02:54:15 <bwm> lots of work still required

02:54:22 <bwm> eyes to future standards: rules, queries

02:54:35 <bwm> issues to do with sw and web services

02:54:48 <bwm> early incremental steps are extremely encouraging

02:54:59 <dajobe-lap> D:[http://search.alpiri.com/wsi-bin/flek.wsp/tap?term=yo+yo+ma&method=search&locate=1|search for "yo yo ma" via TAP]

02:54:59 <dc_rdfig> added comment D1

02:55:15 <bwm> can't see uri which points to all the talks

02:55:17 <jah-owl> can someone chump that link to the track talk.

02:55:25 <dajobe-lap> it has been

02:55:45 <dajobe-lap> B:

02:55:45 <dc_rdfig>http://www.w3.org/2002/Talks/www2002-w3ct-swintro-em/

02:55:46 <dc_rdfig> WWW2002 W3C Track - The Semantic Web

02:55:46 <dc_rdfig> (1:edd) by Eric Miller

02:56:32 <bwm> quux: didn't have to know anything to use the web

02:56:45 <libby> that's not true. my mum can't do it

02:56:49 <bwm> sw requures people to think hard about how to structure information

02:56:56 <jah-owl> quux - Alon Halevy, Univ of Washington

02:56:57 <libby> yep: using RDFAuthor (tm) ;)

02:56:58 <bwm> will my mom be able to author for the semantic web

02:57:30 * bwm gives up scribing

02:58:12 <libby> someone: export stuff from normal e.g. calendar programs

02:58:26 <libby> oh, that would be timbl

02:58:45 <libby> so if mom can use calendar program, she can use sweb

02:59:04 <danbri> maybe dad too...

03:00:22 <libby> bwm are you having your sweb tools bof?

03:00:30 <bwm> yes

03:00:50 <libby> I've been invited to annotations one as well :((

03:00:53 <danbri> theres an annotations one too

03:00:53 <danbri> yup

03:01:01 <danbri> maybe can get nearby rooms?

03:01:04 <bwm> oops

03:01:05 <jah-owl> and sem/grid and a couple of others - too many, foo.

03:01:09 <bwm> shame we can't combine

03:01:10 <libby> could we join together?

03:01:16 <libby> I want to go to both

03:01:18 <dajobe-lap> and all at the same time

03:01:24 <libby> yeah.

03:01:38 <danbri> tools and apps, diverging as ever... Hard to know what to do w/ bofs... keeping a focus...

03:02:03 <libby> timbl: the machine won't suddenly understand - like a little baby iopening its eyes - 'ah'

03:02:13 <danbri> I wonder about maybe going to the anno bof, trying to get a list of demands for the tools bof folk to implement...

03:02:23 <libby> ..defined in gthe vocab of that appliacation

03:02:48 <libby> problem is, we need to go annotations cos of swad-e workpackages....

03:03:27 * danbri not convinced by timbls arg

03:03:37 <danbri> ...that definition is embodied in procedural code

03:04:35 <libby> ralph? not philosophoical meaning, but machine-processible meaning

03:04:44 <libby> (or something, missed some)

03:04:44 <bijan> What's the argument?

03:04:52 <libby> Q about Zakim

03:05:20 <libby> - why are we talking about telecons, not multimedia videocons etc?

03:05:33 <xena> error: [Errno socket error] (110, 'Connection timed out')

03:05:54 <libby> A - practical useful tools - use the phones a lot

03:06:46 <xena> error: [Errno socket error] (110, 'Connection timed out')

03:06:48 <libby> Ralph - why are we exclusing videoconf streams? A: we could accommodate this with our tools

03:07:49 <dajobe-lap> someone renamed RDF IG :)

03:07:55 <edd> lol

03:08:10 <dajobe-lap> next year, semantic grid IG

03:08:13 <libby> ....end....big clap

03:10:59 <www2002> wow, em was doing some major alpiri plugs

03:11:22 <xena> error: [Errno socket error] (110, 'Connection timed out')

03:11:29 <libby> well, its kinda neat

03:12:00 <www2002> Yeah, and it got him out of actually making a demo of his own, I guess. :)

03:12:30 <libby> ooh, get you, whoever you are

03:12:47 <danbri> not alpiri any more

03:12:52 <www2002> oops, TAP

03:12:55 <www2002> www2002 is now known as AaronSw-WWW2002

03:13:09 <libby> ah

03:13:26 <AaronSw-WWW2002> Hm, TAP knows nothing about me.

03:14:15 <AaronSw-WWW2002> But it's good to hear that Guha will eb here.

05:05:47 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Hi all. May have an alternate box to place services on, we'll leave it down until the new box is set up.

05:23:19 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Hi all. To recap, services are down while we attempt to locate an appropriate server on which to run them. Please bear with us.

06:18:53 <nephrael> nephrael is now known as dmiles

06:21:06 <MarkB>http://www1.ics.uci.edu/~ejw/papers/whitehead_ht99.html

06:21:06 <dc_rdfig> E: http://www1.ics.uci.edu/~ejw/papers/whitehead_ht99.html from MarkB

06:21:18 <MarkB> E:|Control Choices and Network Effects in Hypertext Systems

06:21:18 <dc_rdfig> titled item E

06:35:09 <edd_> edd_ is now known as edd

06:37:37 <dmiles-> dmiles- is now known as dmiles

06:49:43 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Services has been restored on a server where we think it will be relatively stable. Please bear with us.

06:50:29 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] We've restored to a backup which is approximately 12 hours old, according to my imperfect and somewhat tired recollection.

06:50:49 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Thanks for your patience and understanding, and thank you for using OPN!

10:19:12 <ChanServ> [#rdfig] This channel is logged and blogged: http://logicerror.com/rdfIRCWelcome

12:31:36 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Hi all. Yesterday and earlier today OPN time (UTC) we experienced a number of problems with services due to its being moved to an uncustomary OS. The move was needed since the box it had been running on was being taken out of service. Several hours of changes from yesterday will be missing from the services databases.

12:32:11 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Services should be relatively stable today. Please let us know if you're experiencing any problems and we'll attempt to resolve them. Thank you.

18:31:13 <scobleizer> Hi everyone, I'm in the Netscape session that just started.

18:33:22 <edd_> edd_ is now known as edd

18:42:43 * DanC wonders what track to go to

18:43:05 <scobleizer> I'm in the Netscape talk.

18:43:24 <scobleizer> If you wanna see the latest in browsers from AOL and Mozilla, that seems to be good.

18:43:35 <DanC> hmm... that one sounded interesting

18:43:44 <dajobe-lap> latest? I'm running mozilla daily build from last week :)

18:43:57 <DanC> unfortunately, my laptop battery is really low, so I need to stay near a power outlet

18:44:09 <edd> plenty of power in the w3c track :>

18:44:11 <dajobe-lap> I'm in the Search-I one

18:44:25 <JibberJim> Netscape's is different to Mozilla though, they have P3P support and things which Mozilla don't.

19:03:33 <JibberJim> Libby, I've been waiting for you...

19:04:13 <JibberJim> I modified danbri's RDF file, so it included all 8 people in the photo, will your rdfweb pick up the changes or do I need to resubmit it?

19:06:46 <libby> hm, resubmit it. could you first check that the thumbnail isn;t huge, as dan accidentally made it huge to start with. actually he had to make a thumbnail. wait a sec...

19:08:11 <libby> hm, did tyou resubmit already? the url of the thum is http://www.w3.org/2001/08/rdfweb/examples/tagboard-thumb.jpg coudl you possibly change that in your file

19:08:13 <libby> ?

19:08:23 <libby> hope you've not been waiting long...

19:08:46 <JibberJim> Well to be honest I was specifically waiting for you...

19:08:57 <libby> oh dear...

19:09:05 * libby shoulda got up earlier

19:09:16 <libby> jetlag seems to have gone so its a struggkle again!

19:09:44 * bwm wonders about libby's secret for beating jetlag so fast

19:10:36 <libby> drinkin' ;)

19:11:14 <bwm> tried that: result = jetlag + headache

19:11:25 <JibberJim> the solution to that is also drinking....

19:11:35 <JibberJim> Tried to add the contents of the RDF url http://jibbering.com/rdfweb/1020892863024.rdf to the database

19:11:36 <JibberJim> sorry - something went wrong :-(

19:11:42 * edd has started with a nasty cold

19:11:51 <libby> yeah, it says that but actually works.

19:12:12 <JibberJim> Oh good, nice to get informative error messages :-)

19:12:31 <libby> yeah, sorry about that.

19:13:23 <JibberJim> I fixed up my db so http://jibbering.com/rdf/foafwhoss3.1 now has all of them in.

19:13:34 <libby> lovely, thanks jim

19:14:02 <JibberJim> My tool doesn't limit to 4 anyway, just the form before my tool, limits to 4...

19:14:48 <libby> right, its tricky to do the ui elegantly

19:15:40 <JibberJim> Oh I had to google for the email addresses for some of the other 4 people, I hope I got it right...

19:21:19 <JibberJim> I also have a clientside tool for processing the SVG now - that RDF is processed into http://jibbering.com/rdf/codepiction-clientside.svg

19:26:34 <libby> what does it do?

19:26:56 <JibberJim> Not a lot, just highlight the people in the RDF, you can't choose which RDF to use at the moment.

19:27:16 <libby> oh, ok, that's still pretty neat

19:27:21 <JibberJim> It was more a "I can do it on the client" moment, as I don't like all this serverside stuff.

19:28:01 <JibberJim> I think we need clients to consume RDF, not servers.

19:32:41 <dajobe-lap> BLURB:Blogs at WWW2002

19:32:42 <dc_rdfig> F: Blogs at WWW2002 from dajobe-lap

19:33:01 <dajobe-lap> F:[http://www.oreillynet.com/cs/weblog/view/wlg/1390|Edd Dumbill], O'Reillynet

19:33:02 <dc_rdfig> added comment F1

19:33:24 <dajobe-lap> F:[http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/business/columnists/dan_gillmor/ejournal/3223677.htm|Dan Gillmour], SJ Mercury News

19:33:25 <dc_rdfig> added comment F2

19:33:41 <dajobe-lap> F:[http://scoble.weblogs.com/|Robert Scobie]

19:33:41 <dc_rdfig> added comment F3

19:34:05 <dajobe-lap> F:[http://dss.editthispage.com/|David Singer], IBM

19:34:05 <dc_rdfig> added comment F4

19:34:11 <dajobe-lap> (is that right?)

19:35:00 <libby> jim, I don't know if clients/servers better. I want everything to consume rdf ;)

19:35:08 <dajobe-lap> F:[http://afroginthevalley.weblogs.com/|Sylvain Carle], en Francais

19:35:08 <dc_rdfig> added comment F5

19:35:40 <dajobe-lap> F:[http://www.la-grange.net/2002/05/08.html|Karl], aussi en Francais

19:35:40 <dc_rdfig> added comment F6

19:36:11 <JibberJim> Hmm... "I still reckon rdf is some black art needing Libby and Dan dancing naked round a totem pole!" Dave Pawson ...

19:36:21 * JibberJim is wondering just what goes on in Bristol...

19:36:29 <libby> erg

19:36:29 <edd> What an image.

19:36:35 <dajobe-lap> quote from ?

19:36:38 <libby> I don;t think anyone wants to see that

19:36:50 <JibberJim> svg-developers mailing list...

19:36:59 <libby> dave pawson from rnib?

19:37:06 <dajobe-lap> point them at the primer?

19:37:24 <libby> I'm rebuilding the paths thing. 126 people...woo

19:37:29 <libby> actually that's not very much

19:37:32 <JibberJim> Yes Libby.

19:38:03 <libby> oh he's a good bloke. dammit, I'm obviously not very persasive

19:44:38 <libby> hey shellac!

19:45:15 * dajobe-lap does a cvs update

19:49:39 <libby> dajobe, did you see the thing about the powercut at ilrt?

19:50:02 <dajobe-lap> yes, I've sorted it

19:50:30 <libby> what have you sorted?

19:51:12 <dajobe-lap> the instructions and Ian S is around

19:51:28 <libby> when is the downtime in terms of here?

19:51:55 <dajobe-lap> um, 14:00 uk time Friday is 03:00 here Friday

20:21:35 <scobleizer> Anyone out there?

20:23:34 <rreck> i am

20:24:46 <DanC> no, noone out here.

20:25:10 <dmiles-> dmiles- is now known as dmiles

20:29:45 <Seth> what's a scobleizer ?

20:33:28 * libby in global communties session

20:33:41 <libby> I will log if no one else is chatting

20:33:51 <libby> chaals is up - networked communities

20:33:56 * DanC waves from ying/yang talk

20:34:00 <libby> (we have no projector)

20:34:05 <libby> hey danc

20:34:25 * dajobe-lap also in sem lang and auth session - yin/yang

20:34:42 <DanC>http://www2002.org/CDROM/refereed/231/

20:34:42 <dc_rdfig> G: http://www2002.org/CDROM/refereed/231/ from DanC

20:35:05 <DanC> G:|The Yin/Yang Web:

20:35:05 <DanC> XML Syntax and RDF Semantics

20:35:05 <dc_rdfig> titled item G

20:35:13 <DanC> G:|The Yin/Yang Web: XML Syntax and RDF Semantics

20:35:13 <dc_rdfig> titled item G

20:35:45 <DanC> G:presented by J?r?me Sim?on at WWW2002. joint work with Peter Patel-Schneider

20:35:45 <dc_rdfig> added comment G1

20:35:50 <libby> chaals cooauthored with his mum :)

20:36:22 <libby>http://www2002.org/CDROM/alternate/725/

20:36:22 <dc_rdfig> H: http://www2002.org/CDROM/alternate/725/ from libby

20:36:34 <libby> H:|The Role of Community in Technical Development

20:36:34 <dc_rdfig> titled item H

20:36:45 <libby> H: Mostly by chaals

20:36:46 <dc_rdfig> added comment H1

20:37:41 <DanC> G:presentation includes the layer cake. odd!

20:37:41 <dc_rdfig> added comment G2

20:40:42 <libby> chaals mentions south west england as a mysterious clustering of sweb types

20:40:53 <dajobe-lap> make fun of his hat

20:42:25 <libby> chaals talks about the importance of, numerousness and complexity of record-keeping tools in the SWeb community

20:42:56 <libby> ....timezones, asynchonous communication

20:43:52 <dajobe-lap> ha ha "RDF has several XML syntaxes"

20:43:56 <libby> ...chaals trusts Jim Ley though he doesn';t know what he looks like :)

20:44:46 <libby> ....problems of flaming, which doesn't happen when you can see someone's face...

20:45:45 <dajobe-lap> "need to chang eXML parser to parse RDF"

20:45:49 <dajobe-lap> which is wrong

20:47:06 <libby> ...the things that keep history best are people - they know where the discussion is and can point you at it...

20:47:18 <dajobe-lap> G:many misconceptions and mistakes about RDF and XML

20:47:18 <dc_rdfig> added comment G3

20:48:40 <libby> ....problem of communities of 2 people - portals...

20:48:42 <dajobe-lap> G:didn't bother to look at the XPath 1.0 data model I used in the revised rdf/xml spec

20:48:42 <dc_rdfig> added comment G4

20:49:48 <libby> ....communites convenient source of stress-testing, very rapidly...

20:50:51 <libby> ....success of communities: signal to noise ratio. importance of moderating the discussions, enable people to ask questions...

20:51:57 <libby> ....how much time does it take to maintain your membership of the community...?

20:52:18 <edd> this channel now on screen on the projector

20:52:25 <dajobe-lap> G:ooh, illegal RDF/XML

20:52:26 <dc_rdfig> added comment G5

20:52:42 <libby> heh

20:53:03 <dajobe-lap> how much should I rip into this IRL?

20:53:17 <libby> poor chaals, more disruption

20:53:45 <libby> ....applying these lessons. SWAD-Europe, W3C and people from the Souith-west of england....

20:54:30 <libby> ...1) providing comminties around people who are building industrial strength tools...

20:55:03 <libby> ...2) enabling people who are doing cool demos, to insipre tools

20:55:32 <libby> ....3) help sweb development in Europe and provide a conduit to the rest of the world for European projects

20:56:20 <libby> ...way we do this: lots of workshops; using existing communities; build+test+build+test+build+test....

20:56:33 <libby> ....feedback at the development edge....

20:56:51 <libby> ...end

20:57:00 <libby> bravo :)

20:57:24 <libby> ...q: what is the ideal size range for a comunity?

20:58:08 <libby> ...a: depends - mostly on the purpose of the community. lots of coding, important to have a small focused community

20:58:36 <dajobe-lap> who did that RDF XQuery paper at an XML conf? Jon Robie?

20:58:57 <libby> ...to do the coding, and a larger community to do testing. beyond 100s need to have low commitment

20:59:12 <edd> dajobe-lap: yes, "the syntactic web"

21:00:07 <libby> ....liddy: example of just now: community talking back though irc on the projector

21:00:08 <libby> :)

21:00:35 <libby> ....another example: a family list - 'kitchen table on line'

21:00:55 <libby>http://www.idealliance.org/papers/xml2001/papers/html/03-01-04.html

21:00:55 <dc_rdfig> I: http://www.idealliance.org/papers/xml2001/papers/html/03-01-04.html from libby

21:01:12 <libby> I:|The Syntactic Web

21:01:13 <dc_rdfig> titled item I

21:01:25 <AaronSw> hey scobleizer!

21:01:38 <libby> ah....

21:01:43 <libby> that's the scoblizer

21:01:53 <yod> Aaron are you in the room?

21:02:03 <AaronSw> yod, which room?

21:02:10 <yod> regency 3

21:02:26 <yod> (wher scoblizer is talking)

21:02:29 <yod> +e

21:02:59 <libby> Weblogs - helping the Web create its own culture - - Invited Talk by Robert Scoble

21:03:01 <AaronSw> oh, he's on now?

21:03:01 <libby> no url

21:03:05 <edd> chaals: great talk

21:03:20 <yod> Aaron : yes

21:03:29 <chaals> edd, thanks

21:03:40 <AaronSw> shoot. i'm heading over...

21:03:48 <libby> bravo chaals, very diffilcut circumstances

21:03:55 <libby> went doen well :)

21:04:28 <yod> karl - Charles it was a good one :)

21:04:34 * chaals would like to thank my co-authors, who were a lot more important to this talk than they might appreciate

21:04:38 <niq> what did chaals speak on? URL?

21:04:43 <libby> heheh

21:05:08 <chaals>http://www.w3.org/2002/Talks/0509-commun/all

21:05:08 <dc_rdfig> J: http://www.w3.org/2002/Talks/0509-commun/all from chaals

21:05:26 <chaals> J:| Chaals talk - Community and Development

21:05:26 <dc_rdfig> titled item J

21:05:43 <libby> darn it, no electrons....

21:05:54 <chaals> A talk at [WWW2002|http://www.www2002.org] based on a paper with a similar title:

21:07:26 * danbri waves from back right of the room

21:07:37 <danbri> Hey chaals, nice talk! :)

21:07:51 * danbri wished he liked giving presentations (and was good at it...)

21:07:59 * reagle-tu wishes http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/index.html documented the channel conventions (e.g., chump) or linked to them at least

21:08:18 <DanC> doesn't it?

21:08:33 <reagle-tu> i don't see it, maybe i'm missing it

21:08:35 <DanC> at the bottom: "Created by the Daily Chump"

21:08:36 <dajobe-lap> there is a link to help but not conventions I think

21:08:48 <libby> I:by Jonathan Robie

21:08:49 <dc_rdfig> added comment I1

21:08:55 <reagle-tu> i don't see help either

21:09:06 <dajobe-lap> do /msg dc_rdfig help then morehelp

21:09:48 <reagle-tu> would someone mine including that on the html page?

21:09:52 <edd> reagle-tu: http://usefulinc.com/chump/MANUAL.txt

21:10:02 * edd takes that action, hopes for beer

21:10:13 <chaals> J: A talk at [WWW2002|http://www.www2002.org] based on [a paper with a similar title|http://www2002.org/CDROM/alternate/725/index.html]

21:10:13 <dc_rdfig> added comment J1

21:10:40 <dajobe-lap> G:"many factual errors, seems to ignore RDF/XML spec revised using xpath 1.0 data model" -- me

21:10:40 <dc_rdfig> added comment G6

21:13:00 <Bayta> Does anyone know of a way to keep a web browser waiting until I get cwm to finish thinking?

21:13:22 <Bayta> I have a demo page that won't work because mozilla times out before cwm finishes

21:14:35 * DanC wonders why markb chumped the paper by whitehead

21:14:44 * chaals promises the beer for edd

21:14:56 * edd opens ssh window and vi :)

21:15:32 * chaals thinks it is a good thing he is not an emacs-nut - or edd would be getting Budweiser

21:15:42 <danbri> bayta: find a mini www server in python, run it as a service. otherwise folk'll keep hitting reload and misery will ensue

21:15:48 * gconole beer sounds good

21:15:59 <libby> chaals, you didnt talk about communites and beer-payment - the impoance of meeting up at some point and exchanging beer

21:16:15 <danbri> beer as currency

21:16:26 * gconole yeh beer as currency

21:16:43 <gconole> beer as the new social discourse

21:16:55 <dajobe-lap>http://radio.weblogs.com/0001011/stories/2002/05/09/slidesForWwwConferenceTalk.html

21:16:55 <dc_rdfig> K: http://radio.weblogs.com/0001011/stories/2002/05/09/slidesForWwwConferenceTalk.html from dajobe-lap

21:17:17 <dajobe-lap> K:|Weblogging and its effect on Culture, WWW2002 talk by Robert Scobie

21:17:18 <dc_rdfig> titled item K

21:17:34 <chaals> There was a lot I didn't talk about - I would have liked to show this channel, but had no projector

21:17:51 <chaals> Annd didn't get to talk about the difference between IRC and email in enough depth

21:18:01 <timbl765> re keeping the browser waiting ... maybe write a browser based on cwm ;-)

21:18:10 <gconole> You did great without the projector Chaals

21:18:19 <libby> I wasn;t being critical, I thought it great.

21:18:23 <gconole> Hello btw I'm Grainne - friend of Libby et al - kinda

21:18:28 <timbl765> re cwm speed - try cwmclone or euler?

21:18:32 <edd> ok, instructions link added in at top

21:18:45 <edd> not very beautiful, but there

21:18:50 <chaals> Hi Grainne - thanks (and your intro came faster than /whois came back ;-)

21:18:52 * sbp has a new cwmclone that seems pretty fast

21:19:24 <Bayta> timbl765: that's probably the next goal. I just wondered if there was a good temporory trick to let netscape know more data is coming

21:20:27 * edd fixes typo, insutrctions link works now

21:20:52 <gconole> Chaals - scary don't believe all you see on /whois

21:20:52 <xower> Bayta: Return it as chunked?

21:21:22 <chaals> No, I don't. But the lesson from accessibility is like the lesson from the web - partial solutions are better than none, if you don't take them too seriously

21:21:59 <DanC> hmm... presenters in this RP-15 session keep walking away from the mic to point to stuff in thier slides; they need either a wireless mic or a pointer

21:22:29 <libby> Grainne used to be our boss at ILRT but has now moved onward and upward. and a friend too :)

21:22:45 <DanC> G:in [RP-15|http://www2002.org/refereedtrack.html#RP-15]

21:22:45 <dc_rdfig> added comment G7

21:23:12 <Bayta> Have recent changes to cwm affected log:semantics?

21:23:14 * chaals notes taht water coolers are an american equivalent to drinks after work in Oz / UK, or lunch in france

21:23:41 <chaals> Hi Damian

21:23:57 <DanC> don't think so, Bayta

21:24:03 <shellac_sniffy> hi chaals

21:24:19 <gconole> Me boss - I don't think so

21:24:42 <libby> hey shellac_sniffy

21:24:45 <chaals> Liddy used to be my boss, but has now moved onward and upward to become my Mum

21:24:50 <chaals> oh, hang on ;-)

21:24:50 <Bayta> my "proof verifier" demo works fine on an older copy of cwm, but fails to import any statements into new ones

21:25:02 <liddy> I was always your mum

21:25:12 <yod> :)

21:25:12 <chaals> Do you have a proof rule?

21:25:17 <gconole> Dear me this is getting scary

21:25:38 <Bayta> chaals: ?

21:25:39 * chaals notices that there is a lot of sidechat going on here.

21:25:57 <DanC> yes, I had to revert to cwm of 13Mar for a project I'm working on. the parsing in recent versions seems broken.

21:26:04 <chaals> (proof rule for being my mum)

21:26:10 <danbri> hi all

21:30:03 <DanC> hmm... I don't have my addressbook on this laptop; I wonder if I can re-create it using some RDF stuff I've been working on...

21:30:15 <DanC> anybody grok procmail logging?

21:30:39 <danbri> nope, nor even the question

21:30:58 <edd> DanC: which aspect of it?

21:33:59 <DanC> well, when last I looked, it seemed that procmail has a default format for logging, but you could replace it...

21:34:10 <DanC> ... but the syntax for saying "log this" seemed magic/implicit somehow

21:34:48 * edd admits to not being that advanced

21:36:26 <DanC> [[ LOG Anything assigned to this variable will be

21:36:26 <DanC> appended to $LOGFILE. ]]

21:36:31 <DanC> -- prcmailrc manpage

21:37:20 <edd> sounds straightforward enough

21:37:46 <DanC> the speaker in RP-15 is using "meta ontology", a new 50cent word.

21:38:20 <AaronSw> who's the speaker now?

21:38:29 <gconole> meta ontology - I like it

21:38:33 <AaronSw> did i miss jjc?

21:38:33 <libby> what's a meta-ontology?

21:38:34 <dajobe-lap> Siegfried Handschuh

21:38:36 <DanC> oneof * Siegfried Handschuh, Steffen Staab

21:38:50 <DanC> yes, you missed jjc

21:38:56 <libby> oh yeah, they're into annotations stuff

21:39:01 <dajobe-lap> kindof tricky to do an app description via slides

21:39:24 <libby> though someone said that the annotatons requirement for sw sardinia was rather onerous...

21:39:47 <dajobe-lap> this app seems either very rich or very complex, not sure which yet

21:40:04 <libby> I think its the same one

21:41:09 <jhendler> dajobe - I think it is both - and much too "heavy" -- a lighweight version of someting like this (which my group is doing I shuld admit) strikes me as the better starting place

21:41:23 <jhendler> also - this is too tied to a single ontology at a time - which I no longer believe in...

21:41:23 <dajobe-lap> yeah

21:42:52 <libby> some photos form yesterday: not great tho. http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/photos/2002/05/08/

21:42:57 <libby> anyone else got any?

21:43:11 <bwm> I've got a video from the bof

21:43:20 <DanC> is anybody in RP-20, with edutella and the XSLT->SQL paper?

21:43:32 <gconole> they're good libby - I haven't downloaded mine yet

21:44:04 <libby> Ooh, I wanted to see those

21:44:07 <libby> darn

21:44:34 <gconole> I need to look on pentax site and see if the software is there

21:44:44 <libby> the XSLT thing looks very interesting. they convert to a graph object, don;t do ordering or recursion

21:45:49 <libby> dan- 'two-laptops' -bri: http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/photos/2002/05/08/001914.JPG

21:46:34 <danbri> when xslt thing?

21:46:54 <gconole> that is such a sad sad geeky piccie of Dan

21:46:59 <danbri> oh, now I guess. I'll read it instead. I can't absorb tech content at presentation pace.

21:46:59 <gconole> is two enough?

21:47:21 <jhendler> hey, one of them is a mac - way to go danbri!

21:47:30 <dajobe-lap> it is libby's mac

21:47:47 <gconole> Libby's mac is very cool - white keyboard and all

21:47:50 <jhendler> way to go libby :->

21:47:52 <libby> I'll convert him

21:47:54 <gconole> cool laptop cool person

21:48:13 <libby> that's the way the equation works ;)

21:48:20 <dajobe-lap> hehe "metametadata"

21:48:37 <gconole> Shouldn't you lot be talking 'serious' RDF stuff?

21:49:23 <AaronSw> hey IRCMonkey_

21:49:47 <IRCMonkey_> Yo

21:50:11 <IRCMonkey_> Just testing this Mozilla client

21:50:53 <libby> I quite like the moz client. went very slow on me once though

21:51:18 <IRCMonkey_> FYI this is Dan Gillmor, IRCMonkey is default name.

21:51:31 <danbri> Oh, hi!

21:51:46 <libby> you've got a blog

21:51:48 <DanC> are comsat/biff tools used/developed any more?

21:52:00 <AaronSw> www2002 folks are welcome in #www2002...

21:52:03 <DanC> try: /nick DanG

21:52:05 <IRCMonkey_> www.dangillmor.com takes you to blog

21:52:06 <danbri> .google dan gillmore blog

21:52:12 <IRCMonkey_> IRCMonkey_ is now known as DanG

21:52:24 <DanC> tada!

21:52:24 <danbri> hmm, where'd xena bot go?

21:52:31 <danbri> .google dan gillmore blog

21:53:10 <DanG> gillmor not gillmore (or gilmore or gilmour etc.)

21:54:07 <dajobe-lap> oops, I will fix my blog error

21:54:09 <DanG> client seems to work ok; not fancy like Ircle but workable

21:54:26 <dajobe-lap> F2:

21:54:26 <dc_rdfig> (dajobe-lap) [http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/business/columnists/dan_gillmor/ejournal/3223677.htm|Dan Gillmour], SJ Mercury News

21:54:51 <dajobe-lap> F2:[http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/business/columnists/dan_gillmor/ejournal/3223677.htm|Dan Gillmor], SJ Mercury News

21:54:51 <dc_rdfig> replaced comment F2

21:55:17 <DanG> can't blog and chat simultaneously. insufficient bandwidth

22:00:03 <libby>http://www2002.org/CDROM/alternate/716/

22:00:03 <dc_rdfig> L: http://www2002.org/CDROM/alternate/716/ from libby

22:00:10 <chaals> Damian, any reason why RDF author can't export SVG that includes RDF in a metadata element?

22:00:41 <shellac_sniffy> er - yeah - I suck ;-)

22:00:50 <libby> L:|A proposal for using metadata to support the building of an educational community

22:00:51 <dc_rdfig> titled item L

22:01:01 <shellac_sniffy> can't export, or simply broken?

22:01:20 <danbri> shellac, just cc:'d you on msg to ilrt-semanticweb, replying to Monica at UKOLN... she wanted Axis SOAP client...

22:01:52 <danbri> I just aftwards remembered I never finished making the tweaks to RDFAuthor for its soap stuff to work with latest Axis code. Did you ever revisit that?

22:02:03 <danbri> (ie. I pointed here at example code that uses old axis...)

22:02:08 <libby> L:interesting talk about the role of metdata in education

22:02:08 <dc_rdfig> added comment L1

22:02:22 * danbri wonders whether to try to get damian on ilrt-semanticweb, or whether to use semanticweb-southwest instead...

22:02:33 <danbri> too many overlapping groups! (see chaals' talk just now :)

22:02:39 <libby> well, damian is workin g at ilrt...

22:02:55 <shellac_sniffy> I'm sort of ignoring soap until we get a chance to sort out the protocol

22:03:06 <danbri> protocols STABLE!

22:03:09 <danbri> array of hashtable.

22:03:09 <libby> swsw would be better to use. except that yahoogroups suck.

22:03:14 <danbri> the end ;-)

22:03:14 <reagle-tu> lunch time

22:03:15 <danbri> it does...

22:03:25 <shellac_sniffy> yeah? that's agreed?

22:03:33 <shellac_sniffy> I missed a meeting

22:03:50 <danbri> agreed?

22:04:03 <danbri> It's not a democracy... ;-)

22:04:39 <shellac_sniffy> I know - libby and I decide stuff and tell you what to do ;-)

22:04:45 <danbri> I don't know anyone else who'se done a soap rdf query protocol and shipped code

22:04:45 <gconole> L:this session on global issue was very interesting

22:04:45 <dc_rdfig> added comment L2

22:04:51 * danbri and you decide stuff and tell libby

22:05:00 <AaronSw> anyone used relay-ctrl?

22:05:01 <Seth> Is\was there any CycCorp prescence at www2002 ?

22:05:16 * danbri and libby decide stuff and write it up for the european commission in great detail

22:05:37 <danbri> Now SWAD-E is off the ground, I've a big incentive to writeup the SOAP stuff. There's a workpackage on it.

22:05:39 * gconole loads of money

22:05:41 <danbri> well, semi-off the ground...

22:06:27 <shellac_sniffy> in ground effect ;-)

22:30:49 * DanC signs off for lunch...

23:12:03 * AaronSw looks around for scoble

23:27:14 <edd_> edd_ is now known as edd

23:38:40 <timbl765> timbl765 is now known as timbl-plenary