Semantic Web Interest Group IRC Chat Logs for 2002-05-12

00:00:01 <grrrr> CaptSolo Together/J, emacs, vim, and rose for a price

00:00:34 <grrrr> Eliezer try valium

00:01:24 <Eliezer> Is that a document editor, or a pharmaceutical? I need an additional keyword if it's an editing tool.

00:01:34 <Eliezer> Sorry if I'm ruining a joke, but there's no way to tell on this end.

00:01:41 <grrrr> its a pill.

00:01:50 <Eliezer> figured as much

00:02:44 <grrrr> any document can be constructed with rudimentary tools available, given time, concentration, and one's own methodology of performing work in serialized fashion.

00:02:46 <CaptSolo> grrrr :)

00:02:53 <Eliezer> Personally I believe in the principle that applications exist to aid human thinking, not to add arbitrary hoops to jump through.

00:02:59 <dajobe-lap> semweb session starts

00:03:04 <CaptSolo> Google search: valium, editing tool

00:03:19 <Eliezer> If you're doing a very difficult job it makes sense to look for tools that make the job easier, not think "If I can't do this the hard way I'm a wimp"

00:03:54 <dajobe-lap>http://haystack.lcs.mit.edu/

00:03:54 <dc_rdfig> A: http://haystack.lcs.mit.edu/ from dajobe-lap

00:03:55 <CaptSolo> Eliezer: some, if they do not find tools, meke them themslves

00:04:00 <dajobe-lap> A:|Haystack

00:04:01 <dc_rdfig> titled item A

00:05:03 <Eliezer> CaptSolo: No question about that, but it is also far superior to use someone else's polished tool than to create your own poorly hacked-up custom version

00:05:22 <Eliezer> This problem has been solved before, somewhere in the universe

00:05:41 * edd interested in this talk: addressing personal information management with semweb techj

00:06:13 <dajobe-lap> haystack -= using semweb techniologies for PIM

00:06:35 <grrrr> Eliezer what is the problem domain you are modelling?

00:06:42 <dajobe-lap> ... folders are tricky

00:06:46 <CaptSolo> eliezer: also true. that's why i am looking if someone has tried to describe CV data in RDf before

00:06:50 <Eliezer> Artificial Intelligence the complex way

00:06:58 <dajobe-lap> ... solution - use semantics to bridge the grap with all data in RDF

00:07:03 <dajobe-lap> s/grap/gap

00:07:12 <Eliezer> I don't need the tool to create AI content, heaven forbid - I need the tool to describe the AI design

00:07:21 <jhendler> there's a win -- merge TAP with my email and wow - killer ap!

00:07:27 <CaptSolo> edd: interesting topic.

00:07:41 <jhendler> If you guys keep bashing AI, I'm going to pick up my toys and go home...

00:07:59 <edd> oo, pretty UI

00:08:02 <dajobe-lap> A:continuing [http://www.daml.org/2002/05/www2002-devday/agenda|WWW2002 devday semantic web track]

00:08:02 <dc_rdfig> added comment A1

00:08:17 * edd gives top marks for people putting decent UI on semweb -- pretty key

00:08:21 <dajobe-lap> A:see also [http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/2002/05/11/2002-05-11.html|yesterdays chump]

00:08:21 <dc_rdfig> added comment A2

00:08:28 <dajobe-lap> ... demo of haystack

00:08:46 <grrrr> Eliezer can you enumerate the concepts, and for each, enumerate the subtopics, and for each enumerate the ...n ?

00:08:55 <dajobe-lap> ... vRIous bits of personal info info in a portal style

00:09:19 <dajobe-lap> ... p rovides a feature called query/browse

00:09:29 * edd wonders if evolution could be bended to this sort of application, i bet it could

00:09:32 <dajobe-lap> ... which allows you to drill down to the item required

00:10:02 <dajobe-lap> ... can categorise the item with easy

00:10:17 <dajobe-lap> seems to be an application called dOzone

00:10:36 <AaronSw> ooh, haystack!

00:10:43 <Eliezer> grrrr: That's what I was doing up until now - the problem is that (a) I need two simultaneous top-level hierarchies, one for systems and subsystems, and one for the levels of organization in emergent behavior; and that (b) I need to describe links between design elements and be able to jump through the links.

00:10:49 <dajobe-lap> A:presentation by Dennis Quan (demoing) and David Huynh, MIT AI lab

00:10:51 <dc_rdfig> added comment A3

00:10:57 <shellac> does haystack really cost that much?

00:10:58 <Eliezer> And see the links from both ends.

00:11:53 <dajobe-lap> haystack cost? no idea. No indication of that or source

00:12:02 <shellac> See screenshot

00:12:32 * jhendler shellac - what screenshot?

00:12:36 <grrrr> Eliezer this is fairly off-topic, about documentation tools, but these folks in here are very tolerant. the debate can go on in private messages, but I have no tools to help you...

00:12:58 <dajobe-lap> grrrr: could you? lots of us are doing semweb track stuff here

00:13:00 * edd wonders if haystack offers RDF export of everything that's inside it

00:13:21 * jhendler edd - good question - if they don't answer, let's be sure someone asks.

00:13:25 <shellac> erm - http://haystack.lcs.mit.edu/images/home.jpg

00:13:29 * jhendler and how it is protected :->

00:13:33 <Eliezer> Sorry if I'm offtopic. I didn't really mean to go on this long. I just wanted to check and make sure there wasn't a well-known cheap sophisticated off-the-shelf tool that everyone knew about except me.

00:14:03 <dajobe-lap> ... demo continues

00:14:10 <Eliezer> Thanks for all help received!

00:15:14 <jhendler> shellac - think that could be a joke ? - it says for just $999/month it will double your daily amount of work ....

00:15:37 <dajobe-lap> well, with no indication of license, availablity or source, what can we conclude?

00:15:58 <shellac> I assumed it was - but MIT are pretty rich - for a reason ;-)

00:16:00 * dajobe-lap has asked this of other 'open' rdf tools in the past

00:16:27 <em-hi> dajobe-lap, you can ask, yes?

00:16:34 <dajobe-lap> demo continues of the meeting assistant

00:16:35 * em-hi looks for dajobe-lap in room

00:16:42 <em-hi> yep, your here! :) ask! :)

00:16:54 <dajobe-lap> he might mention it later

00:17:03 <dajobe-lap> note to self: ask Guha where his source is, license

00:17:15 * em-hi reads up.... see's edds suggestion on evolution

00:17:16 * edd doesn't mind if it costs money, it would be bad if you couldn't get your RDF out

00:17:44 <em-hi> edd, this is a very interesting idea... do you think the evolution team would be interested in this direction

00:17:45 <em-hi> ?

00:17:53 <dajobe-lap> ... onwards to a catering assistent for a meeting beung arranged

00:18:00 <edd> em-hi: possibly. but it's open source, so there's no reason we d

00:18:06 <edd> couldn't contribute

00:18:19 <edd> as it's component-based you don't need to link into the main binary

00:18:27 <dajobe-lap> ... clicks on an n3 web service description fo a caterer

00:19:05 <AaronSw> matches dietary requirements to list of provided food from caterer

00:20:07 <edd> reminds me of redfoot on steroids

00:20:34 <em-hi> lol

00:20:45 <dajobe-lap> demo ends, back to David Huynh

00:20:48 * edd looks around for VCs

00:20:48 <dajobe-lap> for tech parts

00:20:50 * em-hi shushes himself

00:20:51 <dajobe-lap> system architecture

00:21:19 <CaptSolo> ok

00:21:27 <CaptSolo> good night

00:21:28 <edd> ooh, yummy arch. this is kinda like what i keep dreaming of getting the cycles to build one day

00:21:29 * CaptSolo leaving

00:21:36 <libby> see ya

00:21:38 <shellac> By Cap'n

00:21:42 <danbri> bye

00:21:44 <shellac> Bye Cap'n

00:21:58 <dajobe-lap> rdf container astraction

00:22:05 <edd> loooks like a DCOM architecture?

00:22:13 <dajobe-lap> looks like Mozilla containers

00:22:19 <edd> aha

00:22:31 <dajobe-lap> automation - serivce and agences with soap-like interfaces

00:22:36 <dajobe-lap> and a wsdl-like ontologuy for the interfaces

00:22:42 <dajobe-lap> writen in java and python

00:22:58 <dajobe-lap> but found those langs too verbose fdor writing rdf

00:23:07 <dajobe-lap> example of java version

00:23:21 <edd> ooh, adenine -- n3 workalike?

00:23:23 <dajobe-lap> new lang Adenine that provides native support for rdf

00:23:49 <dajobe-lap> may look like a macro lang for java

00:23:51 <dajobe-lap> but is more

00:23:53 <dajobe-lap> compiles into RDF

00:23:56 <dajobe-lap> "Code is Dat"

00:24:03 <AaronSw> data

00:24:48 <dajobe-lap> A:[http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/dquan/haystack_intro.htm|Intro to Haystack] - how to get it from cvs

00:24:48 <dc_rdfig> added comment A4

00:24:53 <AaronSw> _:x a :Function; :next _:y . _:y a :ForLoop.

00:25:05 <AaronSw> _:x ftype :statisticalAnalysisFunction .

00:25:08 <dajobe-lap> UI is also data

00:25:40 <dajobe-lap> and specify a mapping from the data to the UI

00:25:50 * edd enjoying this: what happens if you drive RDF everywhere into your app

00:25:53 <em-hi>http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/dquan/overview.pdf

00:25:53 <dc_rdfig> B: http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/dquan/overview.pdf from em-hi

00:25:53 <AaronSw> mappings create views

00:25:54 <dajobe-lap> and can specify several views via mappings

00:26:10 <em-hi> B:|Haystack: A Platform for Creating, Organizing and

00:26:10 <em-hi> Visualizing Information Using RDF

00:26:10 <dc_rdfig> titled item B

00:26:26 <dajobe-lap> a semantic ui with a presentation ontology and a rendering engine

00:26:29 <AaronSw> B:|Haystack: A Platform for Creating, Organizing and Visualizing Information Using RDF

00:26:29 <dc_rdfig> titled item B

00:26:29 <em-hi> B:|Haystack: A Platform for Creating, Organizing and Visualizing Information Using RDF

00:26:30 <dc_rdfig> titled item B

00:27:06 <edd> heh, this isn't a world away from OLE

00:27:15 <dajobe-lap> description of views , event firing

00:27:24 <em-hi> B:by David Huynh, David Karger, and Dennis Quan

00:27:25 <dc_rdfig> added comment B1

00:28:28 <dajobe-lap> benefits are decoupling of data/presentation, lower barrier of entry, uniform support

00:28:41 <dajobe-lap> for features like context menus

00:31:17 <DanC> hmm... tease! tasty demo, but we can't play. :-P

00:31:31 <edd> look up, wasn't there CVS accesS?

00:31:43 <DanC> yes, but: export CVSROOT=:ext:[theory account name]@haystack.lcs.mit.edu:/h/haystack/cvsroot

00:31:53 <edd> oh, what a tease

00:32:10 <dajobe-lap> summary - haystack explores using Semweb stuff for end user experience, rdf used like a file system, nativree rdf in langusage, semaantic UI

00:32:18 <dajobe-lap> A:available in 2-3 months. cost is TBD

00:32:18 <dc_rdfig> added comment A5

00:33:13 <edd> nice work. should inspire me to get some of this done this summer.

00:33:25 <dajobe-lap> BLURB:Handling Metadata within an RDF-based P2P Network by Siegfried Handschuh, Wolfgang Nejdl, Steffen Staab, n

00:33:25 <dc_rdfig> C: Handling Metadata within an RDF-based P2P Network by Siegfried Handschuh, Wolfgang Nejdl, Steffen Staab, n from dajobe-lap

00:33:40 <AaronSw> pub-and-sub for UI elements. neat

00:33:52 <AaronSw> i want code!

00:34:02 <dajobe-lap> C:plus many other people who worked on it

00:34:02 <AaronSw> we should pool our cash together to buy svs access... ;-)

00:34:02 <dc_rdfig> added comment C1

00:34:12 <AaronSw> hm, anyone have an account on theory?

00:34:15 <dajobe-lap> presented by Steffen

00:34:21 * DanC considers a "release haystack code in its present form!" petition.

00:34:39 <dajobe-lap> anyone want to scribe for a bit?

00:34:57 <AaronSw> i'll try

00:35:00 <dajobe-lap> ok

00:35:02 <AaronSw> KAON Conceptual Architecture

00:35:04 <dajobe-lap> thx

00:35:27 <AaronSw> OntoWeb portal and OntoMan, OntoEdit... syndication goes into portal. releasing in fall of this yr

00:36:00 <AaronSw> tool to use existing rdb

00:36:13 <AaronSw> lots of modes of storage... rdb, p2p net, etc.

00:36:30 <AaronSw> NLP-API. inference engine under research

00:36:46 <AaronSw> working to call different inference engines and integrating responses

00:37:06 <AaronSw> there's no fullblown integrator so we start with common denominator

00:37:37 <AaronSw> big crazy slide of interconnected levels

00:38:14 <AaronSw> data storage layer, common rdf model, common semantics to multiple views and presentations

00:38:20 <AaronSw> QEL query api

00:38:54 <AaronSw> browse ontologies thru web interface

00:39:01 <AaronSw> documents and data at the same time thru query

00:39:06 <AaronSw> OntoMat annotizer

00:39:41 <AaronSw> QEL has a layering (europeans like layering)

00:40:05 <AaronSw> edutella consumer talks to query data flow by QEL which uses a repository and ECOM to provide edutella data

00:40:09 * dajobe-lap pokes AaronSw with a county, state, federal structure

00:40:20 <AaronSw> he said it, not me

00:40:48 <dajobe-lap> sorry

00:41:04 <AaronSw> layer 1 is conjunctive. layer 2 is disjunctive. 3 is transitive closure and 4 is general recursion

00:41:10 <AaronSw> datalog is the internal data model

00:41:16 <DanC> hmm... so... where does DAML+OIL fit in QEL1-5? maybe WebOnt should be something like QEL3?

00:41:34 <AaronSw> JXTA on top (bottom), QEL parser, then query class model, and multiple hooks (rdb, rdf, dbxml)

00:41:40 <em-hi> QEL = Query Exchange Language

00:42:03 <AaronSw> ===Annotizer Tool===

00:42:08 <AaronSw> loads ontology from web,

00:42:26 <AaronSw> views paper in web browser

00:42:33 <afs> They also have MEL - Modification Exchange Language - ISWC paper

00:42:38 <AaronSw> selects a heading of the paper and clicks create new instance

00:42:51 <AaronSw> calls it a title, selects year it was written and does similar

00:42:55 <DanC> all these Java UIs... I'm yet to get any Java UI tools working on my (linux) desktop/laptop. Is Java on linux not there yet, or do I just lack a few clues?

00:43:16 <dajobe-lap> if you are using 1.3.x, try 1.4, it is a lot better

00:43:22 <shellac> It's pretty easy now

00:43:29 <shellac> yeah - what dave said

00:43:30 <DanC> well, so how do I use JAva 1.3.x or 1.4?

00:43:45 <edd> the clues are painful. there's a .deb for blackdown 1.3, unsure about 1.4

00:43:49 * dajobe-lap defers to shellac java expert

00:44:03 <AaronSw> hits connect to database

00:44:07 <shellac> that's pushing things

00:44:27 * AaronSw is unclear on what's happening

00:44:28 <danbri> danc, rdfauth seemed to just work for me. I have a 1.3.x under SUSe.

00:44:36 <DanC> actually, I got EricP to install a 1.4beta jdk on this laptop, I think. (not sure if that was before or after the disk died and got replaced)

00:44:44 <shellac> normally putting <java install>/bin in path is enough

00:45:01 <AaronSw> looks like he's hooking up an rdb to an ontologie thru drag and drop

00:45:55 <dajobe-lap> C:demos of the [http://kaon.semanticweb.org/|KAON tools]

00:45:56 <dc_rdfig> added comment C2

00:47:18 * shellac departs for sleep

00:47:31 <dajobe-lap> nite; see you tuesday

00:47:46 * shellac as does shellac_unstable

00:47:54 <DanC> but where do I get <java install>, shellac?

00:48:04 <shellac> damn you :-)

00:48:05 <dajobe-lap> its a java.sun.com download

00:48:18 * DanC is hoping for the day when I get consistent "use the JDK from XYZ" recommendations two weeks in a row.

00:48:36 <dajobe-lap> sun downloads are never that simple

00:48:40 <shellac> Normally they suggest putting it in /usr/local/jdk-X

00:49:06 * bwm whoops with joy; getHostByName now works on his laptop

00:49:17 <AaronSw> shows tablecolumn mapping and other odd things...

00:49:46 <AaronSw> creates instances from db

00:49:55 <DanC> truth be told, I have pretty much given up on maintaining /usr/local/anything. If apt-get won't make it available to me, I've generally got better things to do.

00:50:09 * edd too

00:50:12 <shellac> oh - 1.4 is j2sdk1.4.0

00:50:16 <burtonator> me too

00:51:09 <AaronSw> ===edutella===

00:51:14 <AaronSw> [muttering about slides]

00:51:34 <DanC> rather: an excellent explanation of how to find his slides from the web.

00:51:40 <burtonator> AaronSw: what did you think of edutella?

00:52:16 <AaronSw> http://padlr.kbs.uni-hannover.de/pub/bscw.cgi/0/4618

00:52:35 <shellac> hope you get java working DanC

00:52:39 <AaronSw> can get his code from CVS

00:52:52 <AaronSw> burtonator, well, i'm not much of a jxta fan...

00:52:56 <dajobe-lap> he has got a few jars there

00:53:03 <AaronSw> heh

00:53:09 <AaronSw> 10 lines worth it seems

00:53:15 <burtonator> Why aren't you a JXTA fan?!

00:53:20 <AaronSw> he starts up some more peers

00:53:55 * burtonator is worried that some P2P hackers think it is hip to dislike JXTA

00:54:21 <AaronSw> argh

00:54:23 <shellac> is JXTA related to ZeroConf?

00:55:08 <AaronSw> no, maybe you're thinking of jini

00:55:52 <AaronSw> I can't follow what he's saying. Does someone else want to scribe?

00:56:19 <AaronSw> automatic generation of peer selection, i think

00:56:54 <AaronSw> finds exercises for software engineering

00:57:17 * shellac definitely departs now. Java questions should be directed to HP guys (they must how to get it working)

00:58:05 <shellac> /quit

00:58:54 <AaronSw> demoing a mozilla interface

00:58:55 <DanC> wow... aa.com re-did their web site. no frames! no redirect to session-specific URI!

00:59:08 <AaronSw> yeah, one day before i left for HI. I was amazed

00:59:10 <edd> yay, the broadvision stuff sucked

00:59:37 <AaronSw> I think they were trying to compete with united's site

00:59:52 <AaronSw> shows "Conzilla" doing a query map, nodes-arcs diagrab of reified triples

01:00:44 <AaronSw> logger, here

01:00:44 <AaronSw> See http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2002-05-12#T01-00-44

01:00:49 <AaronSw> there you go, burtonator

01:01:03 <burtonator> sweet

01:01:05 <AaronSw> he uses graphical interface to execute query

01:01:40 <AaronSw> results show up in the side

01:02:00 <AaronSw> eric cuts off questions

01:02:18 <AaronSw> dueling slides for added bonus

01:02:40 <AaronSw> ===Marie from Annotea===

01:03:39 <AaronSw> stickey note: "SW advanced Development"

01:03:57 <AaronSw> hm, non-web slides from a W3C employee? gasp!

01:03:59 <DanC> Marja

01:04:06 <AaronSw> oops

01:04:39 <DanC> the address of the slides was at the bottom of the screen for just a sec; did anybody catch it?

01:04:48 <AaronSw> Marja-Riitta Koivunen

01:05:25 <emmanuel>http://www.w3.org/2002/Talks/0511-annotea/

01:05:25 <dc_rdfig> D: http://www.w3.org/2002/Talks/0511-annotea/ from emmanuel

01:05:49 * DanC wants to know how the slides are produced...

01:06:10 <edd> DanC: you never used powerpoint? ;-P

01:06:13 <DanC> well, they look nice, but they seem to be a big pile of images.

01:06:28 <jose-w3c> DanC: concentrate on the presentation and then ask MArja after her presentation :)

01:06:44 <AaronSw> looks like powerpoint: http://www.w3.org/2002/Talks/0511-annotea/img2.html

01:06:53 <afs> OpenOffice?

01:07:11 <AaronSw> clicking aA gets you text, i.e. http://www.w3.org/2002/Talks/0511-annotea/text1.html

01:07:13 <jose-w3c> powerpoint exported thru openoffice

01:07:13 <afs> The buttons are off the top

01:07:21 <burtonator> (god stuff guys... thanks)

01:07:29 <jose-w3c> but with a promise to do it the right way with HTML and SVG

01:07:43 <AaronSw> text: sometimes at least...

01:07:47 <DanC> the text alternatives of the images look pretty useful.

01:07:54 <jose-w3c> but this is rdfig and not ppig :) the content is the same

01:09:18 <DanC> so ... we've been annotating bits of the conference here for days; does annochump pick them up?

01:09:29 <em-hi> yes, annochump does

01:09:58 <DanC> so can ralph show the annotations we've made?

01:10:28 <DanC> [demo-gods visit]

01:10:28 * jhendler call Aaron to help - he did great at this...

01:10:51 <AaronSw>http://www2002.org/devday.html

01:10:51 <dc_rdfig> E: http://www2002.org/devday.html from AaronSw

01:11:05 <AaronSw> E:|WWW2002 Developers Day Agenda

01:11:05 <dc_rdfig> titled item E

01:11:16 <AaronSw> E:This is an example annotation for the annotea presentation.

01:11:17 <dc_rdfig> added comment E1

01:11:32 <edd> is there a W3C bugzilla?

01:11:43 * jhendler why don't we get Ralph a Mac so he can run Amaya?

01:11:47 <DanC> umm... there's an internal one...

01:12:02 <AaronSw> and the xhtml wg (or some wg) has a public one

01:12:10 * edd wonders how Amaya can get better. I reckon some external developers would love to tidy the UI

01:12:21 <DanC> none of the public projects have decided to support a public bugzilla. (or maybe my info is out of date)

01:13:03 <AaronSw> ralph: inserted pointer to rdfig scratchpad

01:13:11 <AaronSw> ... earlier during the session

01:13:52 <AaronSw> [annotates an svg face]

01:13:58 <AaronSw> the poor kid looks terrified

01:14:19 <emmanuel> would you like to be annotated?

01:14:41 <edd> annotation really needs trust

01:14:44 <jhendler> Ralph needs a primer on body parts...

01:14:55 <edd> is there a way to see only annotations from trusted sources?

01:15:03 <AaronSw> yes, get a private annotation server

01:15:08 <AaronSw> (i think is the answer)

01:15:18 <AaronSw> shows ericp's backend

01:15:28 <edd> ok, so your answer is "no" for the time being then :)

01:15:37 <jhendler> but then how do I see other people's annotations outside my small circle of friends?

01:15:45 <jose-w3c> It's the correct answer because we don't have any inbuilt digsig stuff

01:15:56 <jose-w3c> but you can precise a set of annotation servers

01:15:57 <AaronSw> i vaguely recall seeing some amaya filter thing

01:16:09 <jhendler> I want to query for "Find me all the annotations that were placed by MIT people" or "by computer programmers" or etc -- rdf would allow this

01:16:11 <jose-w3c> you can also customize the algae query

01:16:37 <jose-w3c> Jim, through the custom algae query menu (but it's disabled by default)

01:17:03 <jose-w3c> come see me and I'll show you how to make it visible

01:17:13 <edd> hmm, FOAF meets Annotea

01:17:26 <jose-w3c> what does FOAF mean?

01:17:31 <AaronSw> authenticated info vs. unathed

01:17:36 <AaronSw> FOAF = Friend of a Friend

01:17:39 <edd> danbri's frriend-of-a-friends stuff

01:17:46 <jose-w3c> thanks

01:17:57 <AaronSw> see rdfweb.org

01:17:59 <jhendler> jose - understood -- we played a little with this one time in another system w/respect t o how to make this really scalable - note that digsig doesn't help because the issue isn't "did person A write this" but did anyone of type X write this -- which is much more interesting and scalable.

01:18:13 * edd hoots a victory note for introducing the word "chump" into far too many slides to be sensible!

01:18:59 <edd> although i like the way "snufkin" sounds even better.

01:19:15 * em-hi wonders if edd's seen annochump yet ... even more son'o'chumps

01:19:25 <jhendler> I'd like to come into a web page in annotea, and have a window pop up saying "there are annotations" -- I could then display them in the window, sorted by who they're from, what they say, etc. and also be able to set flags to only see what specific users or communities or etc. would work

01:19:26 <edd> em-hi: no, i don't think i have

01:19:48 <jhendler> oops - didn't mean "would work" but had written, hit return too soon...

01:19:59 <jhendler> i.e. I want to see what specific folks had written

01:20:09 <em-hi> annochump (chump to annotea) -> http://www.w3.org/2001/09/chump

01:20:41 <jhendler> So if I'm a flying saucer buff, I'm alloweed to mark up your page to say your an alien, the TAP system finds my annotation, and other people, who hate UFO folks, simply ignore or block it.

01:21:08 <edd> em-hi: thanks. & nice writeup.

01:21:37 <jhendler> i.e. if we're going to be web like, we need to be open - later folks can do groups of interested users on top of it and such (i.e. more restricted) -- hooks should be there, but system should be open and scalable

01:22:28 <jhendler> IMHO.

01:23:41 <DanC> I'm not sure what you're point is, Jim. That's the way annotea works, no? perhaps the client UI isn't what you would have picked; is that your point?

01:24:40 <libby> (apropos of nothing) I hacked dean's 6 degrees demo to use codepict data: http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/people/libby/rdfweb/paths/6degcodepict.svg

01:24:57 <libby> dean/svg rulz

01:25:23 * edd wishes he had SVG plugin on this machine

01:25:28 <AaronSw> dean's demos are up??

01:25:36 <libby> no, I don't think so

01:25:39 * DanC wonders why edd doesn't have SVG plugin

01:25:46 <edd> not avail for ppc linux

01:26:43 <AaronSw> how do i use this demo?

01:26:47 <libby> not for noncom use

01:26:54 <libby> for non-public use!

01:26:59 <AaronSw> eh

01:27:07 <libby> click the green button

01:27:23 <DanC> no svg for ppc linux. ew. sometimes it's lonely on the bleeding edge, I guess.

01:27:25 <AaronSw> it creates more blank thingies

01:28:13 <libby> hm, my version creates new nodes for pictures, with (ugly) urls next to them

01:28:13 * edd 's eyes glaze at all the lisp

01:28:58 <DanC> edd, open your brain a little; that's not lisp. it's algae. ()'s are somehow less comprehensible than <>?

01:28:59 * jhendler gee Edd, that's the first code I could read all day!!

01:29:18 <jhendler> but why did algae make up it's own syntax?

01:29:23 * edd retreats back in his shell, nurses brain

01:29:26 <jhendler> s/it's/its

01:30:35 <DanC> well, I infected EricP with stuff I learned at U.T. Austin. monkey-see-monkey-do. It's not as though there's an obvious off-the-shelf syntax for RDF query.

01:31:08 <edd> umm, well, the SQL-a-like syntaxes are nice for me

01:31:19 <afs> QEL looks like a starting point for an RDF query exchange language

01:31:37 <afs> I will look at using it in Joseki for query transfer synatx

01:31:37 <AaronSw> Q: aren't you just doing rdfg in rdf? shouldn't the annotations be reified properties on the document?

01:31:39 <edd> not that an odd syntax invalidates the work, btw.

01:31:57 <DanC> ok, I can see how SQL is easier on the eyes.

01:32:00 <dajobe-lap> what one (1) query language do I write in C (rather slowly) at this time? I've got a choice of 7+ slightly or very different langs

01:32:37 <dajobe-lap> my answer is to hold back

01:32:40 <AaronSw> rrs: lot of art, some sciernce in data modeling. felt that this model was closest (and simpler) to xlink. looked at reification. connecting resources together corresponds to xlink

01:32:51 <afs> Agree - we need one synatx for people, one for xfer

01:32:51 <AaronSw> dajobe-lap, ntriples w/ universals

01:33:11 <dajobe-lap> for humans, not semweb geeks

01:33:11 * edd hopes dajobe-lap gets an answer: easy query is important for an rdf app framework, imho

01:33:16 <AaronSw> jjc: were rules done w/ backward or forward chaining?

01:33:16 <AaronSw> ericp: forward

01:33:19 * DanC wants to know the story behind the aa.com website re-design. It's SO MUCH BETTER! I can even bookmark the results of queries!

01:33:35 <danbri> graphical query i like a lot. makes things so obvious...

01:33:47 <dajobe-lap> was aa.com blasted by, say, Jacob Nielsen?

01:33:49 <edd> danbri: yes, but not useful for inline in programs

01:33:56 <AaronSw> Q: storage model seems sorta problematic. p2p network for them?

01:33:56 <AaronSw> A: sure. we're using http to do post and get so you can layer anything thru http.

01:34:21 <AaronSw> ... in fact this implementation has poor ui for ocnfiguring annotation server, but we have support ofr a list of servers to be queried.

01:34:39 <afs> dajobe - what are the deciding factors for you?

01:35:20 <dajobe-lap> afs: I don't want to write, rewrite it following a changing language

01:35:31 <AaronSw> mysterious claims about privacy

01:35:37 <edd> heh, well you could be waiting 3 years then dajobe...

01:35:51 <afs> OK - stable. What level of power?

01:36:21 <afs> Syntax for QEL-1? (does it have filters?)

01:36:22 <jose-w3c> Ralph mentioned that we're going to have some rules for configuring which annot servers you want to consult under which conditions

01:36:25 <AaronSw> hm, looking at privacy policy there seems to be no support.

01:36:37 <DanC> dajobe-lap, what makes you want to write an RDF query language, if you're not interested in tracking changes?

01:36:45 <jose-w3c> My idea is to add regexps to say "consult this list of annot servers for urls that match this expr"

01:36:52 <dajobe-lap> DanC: people seem to want it

01:37:01 * edd wants it, as potential redland user

01:37:08 <timbl765> Aaron, do talk to Ralph, because the DAML funding we have includes doing privacy stuff.

01:37:53 <AaronSw> hm.

01:37:59 <timbl765> He is very concerned about it for Zakim.

01:38:09 * DanC finds " Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:40:10 -0600\ Please don't break bookmarks in AA web site"

01:39:11 <AaronSw> Yeah, which seems odd since Zakim has much less privacy exposure than Annotea.

01:41:25 <afs> We need a standard (simple) language for everyone to implement.

01:41:39 <afs> Minimal is one N-triple with wildcards

01:41:53 <afs> Next is set of such with names variables

01:42:58 <afs> For structured data, I find I need disjuncture to cope with semistructured data

01:50:17 <em-hi>http://www.ics.uci.edu/~rohit/

01:50:17 <dc_rdfig> F: http://www.ics.uci.edu/~rohit/ from em-hi

01:50:24 <em-hi> F:|Rohit's home page

01:50:24 <dc_rdfig> titled item F

01:53:41 <AaronSw> D:updat eto photo: rohit has hair now

01:53:41 <dc_rdfig> added comment D1

02:03:47 <dajobe-lap>http://photos.dajobe.org/gallery/rdfers-www2002

02:03:48 <dc_rdfig> G: http://photos.dajobe.org/gallery/rdfers-www2002 from dajobe-lap

02:04:03 <dajobe-lap> G:|RDFers through the ages at WWW2002 Developers Day, Semantic Web Track

02:04:03 <dc_rdfig> titled item G

02:04:20 <dajobe-lap> G:includes RDF WG, RDF Core WG, WebOnt WG former and current members

02:04:21 <dc_rdfig> added comment G1

02:08:13 <AaronSw> ===Devday Plenary: Where do we want to go tomorrow?===

02:08:43 <AaronSw> Powerpoint replacements...

02:09:28 <edd> BLURB:Chump credits

02:09:28 <dc_rdfig> H: Chump credits from edd

02:09:42 * AaronSw sings

02:09:42 <edd> H:I should point out Bijan Parsia made the original idea.

02:09:42 <dc_rdfig> added comment H1

02:09:52 <edd> H:And Matt Biddulph did most of the Python coding.

02:09:53 <dc_rdfig> added comment H2

02:09:56 <AaronSw> We're on the big screen!

02:10:05 <AaronSw> and getting bigger...

02:10:20 <sbp> this screen that you speak of... is it symbolic?

02:10:27 <AaronSw> AaronSw has changed the topic to: WWW2002 Developers Day | Projected live on the big screen

02:10:35 <sbp> I guess that answers that

02:10:41 <AaronSw> no, it's pretty real

02:10:47 <AaronSw> all of devday is watching you...

02:10:54 * sbp waves to devday

02:11:02 <AaronSw> t.v. blasts eric miller for not describing the screen

02:11:38 * sbp wonders how many walls and screens this channel has been projected onto now

02:11:40 <DanC> logger, pointer?

02:11:40 <DanC> See http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2002-05-12#T02-11-40

02:12:03 <DanC> E:see [discussion|http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2002-05-12#T02-11-40]

02:12:04 <dc_rdfig> added comment E2

02:12:05 <AaronSw> Eric: people couldn't make it here, but audience catalogged presentations for them

02:12:14 <AaronSw> E?

02:12:24 <AaronSw> ah

02:12:39 * DanC suggests EricM reload the weblog page

02:13:33 <AaronSw> DanC: How many people manually copied data from the program to their PDA?

02:13:37 <AaronSw> [lots]

02:13:45 <AaronSw> ... how bout we don't do that next year? [applause]

02:14:02 <jhendler> Yay Dan.

02:14:05 <AaronSw> Tim Bray uses a PBG4.

02:14:15 <AaronSw> Rohit and TimBL too.

02:14:27 <DanC> (oops; could have plugged the mind group's scraping work to date; it did get plugged elsewhere today, no?)

02:14:33 <AaronSw> Rohit: big effect would be wireless bandwidth meter.

02:14:44 <timbl765> (pbg4: and JHendler)

02:14:45 <edd> It's too late for XML Europe now, but we could trial on XML 2002, maybe?

02:14:51 <jhendler> DanC - no, would be nice to mention

02:14:52 <edd> oreilly gets timetable data ahead of time

02:15:24 <AaronSw> Tim Bray on the RDDLer project

02:15:48 <DanC> you're kidding; it's too late to take the XML Europe program and make it available in vcal/rdf/csv/whatever?

02:16:14 <edd> well, for me personally, it is :) i have the small matter of chairing it to attend to.

02:16:28 <edd> and integration with conf website is unlikely to happen

02:16:29 <ygonno_> ygonno_ is now known as ygonno

02:16:45 <libby> maybe miked's stuff could be used to scrape the xmle data?

02:16:59 <AaronSw> Tim: It's just a name. B: what does it point to. Tim: it's just a name. B: what does it point to?? Tim: But it's just a name!

02:17:10 <AaronSw> this was so boring that we wrote rddl

02:20:46 <AaronSw> RDF equivalent (eric: yay! TIm: control yourself eric) which is remarkably easier to read

02:20:47 <edd> he appeared to leave the rddl: xmlns decl off

02:21:03 <dajobe-lap> and other mijnor syntax errors, but yay! anyway

02:21:27 <jhendler> Aaron - he wants plesh!

02:21:35 <AaronSw> I want the RDDLer. It's not a cheesy batman villan (audience: hey!), it takes a namespace, dereferences it, parses it and generates a default actions for each thing

02:21:47 <AaronSw> "click here to run the stylesheet. click here to validate. etc."

02:22:04 <AaronSw> jhendler, he does?

02:22:25 * em-hi seems to recall running across an rdf application like this already out there... hmm....

02:22:54 <AaronSw> ?x: in our track we found lots of stds interop issues.

02:23:11 <AaronSw> ... CCPP with XForms with VoiceXML and security

02:23:15 <AaronSw> ... put the stds together

02:23:22 <edd> is rohit plugging his product onscreen ?

02:23:33 <AaronSw> seems so

02:23:48 <AaronSw> [rohit plugs his product on screen]

02:25:07 <AaronSw> Rohit: c14n, is this a chemical reaction?

02:25:24 <AaronSw> ?y: How many care about c14n? [one hand raised]

02:25:35 <sbp> heh. that's usually me

02:26:24 <AaronSw> jjc: rdf core now has a dependency on c14n to define equivalent of two xml frags

02:27:23 <AaronSw> Dürst: if you have a number with a schema with three leading zeroes and store it in a database without the leading zeroes then when you write it out... it's easier to ??

02:27:29 <jhendler> .google C14N

02:27:30 <AaronSw> Rohit: what difference does that make?

02:27:42 * jhendler foo - xena still asleep?

02:27:44 <AaronSw> C14N: http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-c14n

02:28:39 <AaronSw> Tim: good for dsig

02:28:54 <jhendler> C14N - very mnemonic name...

02:28:58 <AaronSw> Dürst: the best way for c14n is to have only one way to say something and the specs get simpler

02:29:05 <AaronSw> like i18n

02:29:48 <AaronSw> Rohit: how many have signed xml docs with pgp or something? [a sprinkling] next year? [similar]

02:30:28 <jhendler> It will eventually be embedded in many of our apps - but it needs to be invisible.

02:30:41 <AaronSw> Notes Dude: users don't wanna do this stuff. my email is digitally signed because the checkbox is sign-all-my-mail

02:30:52 <AaronSw> ... notes does pki for you

02:31:37 <AaronSw> ... it's gotta go like HTTPS

02:31:46 <edd> that dude was Noah Mendhelsson (sp?)

02:31:54 <AaronSw> Ah.

02:32:02 <AaronSw> I guess I should have looked.

02:32:23 <AaronSw> bwm: i should've put my hand up earlier... if you submit your tax return in the uk it goes as signed xml.

02:32:42 <AaronSw> Tim: i generated my tax using n3 rules.

02:32:54 <AaronSw> ... [talks about his crypto demo]

02:32:59 <AaronSw> ... imports info from the web, checks sigs

02:33:22 <AaronSw> ... jena and others should support crypto. now the patents have run out and export is gone, take advantage!

02:33:50 <AaronSw> ... put sig verification everywhere. as semweb builds up, app-level security is the missing link

02:34:15 <timbl765> (like... get Guido to put pycrypto into python)

02:34:32 * jhendler Lynne chandler says that way we could know the email really is from the former king of Nigeria...

02:34:36 <AaronSw> timbl765, i got pyxml to work on os x. working on amkcrypto...

02:35:12 <timbl765> aaron ... cool... levae breadcrumbs...

02:35:18 <timbl765> s/va/av

02:35:35 <AaronSw> the secret is: fink selfupdate-cvs; fink install python

02:35:44 <AaronSw> there was a bug fixed in the latest cvs of fink

02:36:26 <AaronSw> now i'm stuck on: /usr/bin/ld: can't locate file for: -lgcc

02:36:27 <AaronSw> e

02:36:52 <deltab> using gcc?

02:37:06 <AaronSw> ah, good point

02:37:57 <AaronSw> oh, i think that worked!

02:38:55 <DanC> "soap router"... gong! product plug!

02:39:04 * edd wonders if we could get "chump (v)" into the OED

02:40:42 <dajobe-lap> TimBray asks for decent SVG access in his browser

02:41:02 <dajobe-lap> with DOM access

02:41:20 <AaronSw> [rohit plugs his product onstage]

02:41:21 <AaronSw> [disses irc bots]

02:41:27 <dajobe-lap> "if people don't want vector graphics in their browser, they are on drugs" - Tim Bray

02:41:29 <danbri> boo!

02:41:30 <AaronSw> (oops, was in wrong channel)

02:42:22 <jhendler>http://www.ece.umd.edu/~adityak/reftrack.rdf

02:42:22 <dc_rdfig> I: http://www.ece.umd.edu/~adityak/reftrack.rdf from jhendler

02:42:37 <jhendler> I:|WWW 2002 refereed paper track in RDF

02:42:37 <dc_rdfig> titled item I

02:42:52 <jhendler> I: scraped using "RDF Scraper" (open code)

02:42:52 <dc_rdfig> added comment I1

02:43:01 <jhendler> I: Rohit says this would be hard to do...

02:43:01 <dc_rdfig> added comment I2

02:44:21 <jhendler> I: use dc and ical

02:44:21 <dc_rdfig> added comment I3

02:44:40 <AaronSw> <wmf> you know you're in trouble when your product competes with IRC bots

02:45:21 <jhendler> I: http://www.ece.umd.edu/~adityak/running.html for the details of the scraper. (someone who is better w/chump could make that readable)

02:45:21 <dc_rdfig> added comment I4

02:45:31 * edd smiles

02:45:55 * jhendler edd - I love the chump, but I'm real bad at remembering all the syntaxes

02:45:57 <AaronSw> ooh, got amkCrypto working too!

02:46:25 <AaronSw> I4: [http://www.ece.umd.edu/~adityak/running.html|details of the scraper]

02:46:25 <dc_rdfig> replaced comment I4

02:46:25 <edd> jhendler: that's what you get for reading N3

02:46:53 * jhendler thanks Aaron - edd - lol.

02:47:41 <edd> also, the chump engine is reasonably well abstracted. alternate UIs a matter of writing a bit of code. we're currently experiemnting with SOAP (!) frontend, there's a command line one, also a web one in the works

02:47:53 * edd suspects he will still prefer IRC

02:48:23 <AaronSw> timbl765, sudo apt-get install openssl; emacs amkCrypto-0.1.3/setup.py and

02:48:32 <AaronSw> change SSL_DIR to:

02:48:32 <AaronSw> SSL_DIR = "/sw"

02:48:32 <AaronSw> and the line:

02:48:32 <AaronSw> 'stdc++','gcc'

02:48:32 <AaronSw> to just:

02:48:33 <AaronSw> 'stdc++'

02:51:52 <AaronSw> Tim: encrypt your password and stick it in your .sig.

02:52:01 <AaronSw> ... if it does get cracked it's just like losing your wllet

02:52:20 <AaronSw> ... keep the key in your head or on your java ring

02:52:24 <jhendler> Dan gave me his sig - guess I shouldn't post it to my web site, right? :->

02:52:44 <dajobe-lap> libby, danbri: plug for calendaring meeting?

02:53:04 <AaronSw> ... we need rdf calendaring. eric won't go to any conference unless you invite him in rdf. Rohit: eric likes spending time at home

02:53:08 <AaronSw> ... issue tracking, agenda tracking

02:54:11 <AaronSw> Rohit: good thing nobody's taking minutes of this stuff and it's not public

02:54:20 <AaronSw> [laughs] Oh, i guess that statement has also been falsified

02:54:44 <AaronSw> ?f: RDF-> natural langauge would be cool

02:54:51 <AaronSw> ... not the other way

02:55:04 <AaronSw> ... shows value of rdf

02:55:45 <AaronSw> ... text is most people's interface to knowledge

02:55:52 <DanC> ooh... that reminds me: along with rdfs:label and rdfs:comment, there's a place in the world for rdfs:howToWriteThisPropertyInEnglish/French/Spanish

02:56:06 <AaronSw> xml:lang ;)

02:56:09 <dajobe-lap> is someone capturing rohit's slides in some machine readable form?

02:56:11 <edd> GNOME has really impressed me with that

02:56:17 <AaronSw> Rohit: next year is rdf output as haiku

02:56:17 <DanC> that is: how to write sentences with this property in english.

02:56:24 <AaronSw> ah.

02:56:38 <DanC> dc:title :sayAs "The title of %subject is $object.".

02:57:11 <AaronSw> "%subject's title is %object"

02:57:43 <DanC> hmm... how to say the subject...

02:58:35 <dajobe-lap> (nearly last 30 mins of wireless...)

02:59:08 <DanC> hmm... we could do a Q&D RDF-to-text using log:outputString. hmm... do I have 45min free...

02:59:20 <AaronSw> Q&D?

02:59:37 <danbri> danc: yes, that'd be really nice. Dublin Core folks would appreciate this especially I think.

02:59:50 <AaronSw> oh quick & dirty

03:00:43 <dajobe-lap> see http://www.dlib.org/dlib/october00/baker/10baker.html "A grammar of Dublin Core" which uses sentences to explain DC

03:02:10 <AaronSw> Q: when XML and when RDF? we need guidelines

03:02:31 <AaronSw> Rohit: real world impact?

03:03:12 <edd> hmm, RDF heavy today. shame there aren't more XML-heads here

03:03:19 <edd> we've not seen, say, much XLink talk

03:03:35 <AaronSw> heh, there was a "why xlink isn't dead yet" during lunch

03:03:46 <edd> oh, it's still twitching?

03:09:04 <AaronSw> eric says spamassasin doesn't work for him

03:09:13 <DanC> I'm pessimistic about public-key-crypto stuff vs. advogato-style stuff.

03:09:18 * edd will help him set it up

03:09:35 <AaronSw> someone tell eric about vipul's razor

03:09:36 * edd had thought experiment FOAF/Email/InstantMessaging/Blog merge

03:10:02 <em-hi> AaronSw, I know about this

03:10:25 <AaronSw> so what is it missing?

03:12:17 <timbl765> Traceback (most recent call last):

03:12:17 <timbl765> File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?

03:12:17 <timbl765> ImportError: cannot import name mxCrypto

03:12:28 <AaronSw> yeah, you need to leave that directory

03:12:47 <jhendler> killer app for CYC - a program so the spam folks could answer the challenge questions automatically!!

03:13:27 <AaronSw> if they could do that then they could read the messages and decide if they were spam or not ;-)

03:14:01 <DanC> hmm.. noodling on a simple protocol... POST "mid:2k3elkj is spam"... GET /spamP/mid:23r423 ... seems like algae is up to it

03:14:03 <edd> rohit talks of library of all spams, umm, again already been done with vipul;'s razor

03:14:41 <AaronSw> vipul.sf.net folks

03:14:57 <AaronSw> err razor.sf.net

03:15:00 <dajobe-lap> t.v. asks for no more "blue feedback sheets"

03:15:15 <dajobe-lap> and harks back to early browser that had annotations built in

03:15:16 * jhendler someone should do ACLs in RDF - oh, never mind...

03:16:48 <DanC> hmm... do we need a new photo-rdf mailing list? EricM, pick a list for folks to announce their photo metadata stuff.

03:17:41 <ger-hi> I have been thinking of starting a list to discuss digital photo mgmt software

03:18:10 * danbri glances up at screen -- hey, we made that!

03:18:31 * danbri hopes eric credits libby and damian for coding it up

03:18:46 <DanC> er... EricM, don't assume the audience knows the word 'codepicts'

03:19:00 * AaronSw pokes em-hi

03:19:19 <AaronSw> Eric: i'm surprised libby raised her hand rather than keep adding metadata

03:19:58 <AaronSw> Rohit: why does she do this?

03:19:58 <AaronSw> DanC: it sells her query software

03:20:12 <AaronSw> ... also i want my computer to play the game of whose that guy i met in hawaii, etc.

03:20:22 <dajobe-lap> (wireless for 10 more mins)

03:20:38 <dajobe-lap> BLURB:More WWW2002 blogs

03:20:39 <dc_rdfig> J: More WWW2002 blogs from dajobe-lap

03:20:46 <AaronSw> Libby: i wanted people to go "ooh, yeah, rdf is cool"

03:20:52 <dajobe-lap> J:[http://morenews.blogspot.com/?/2002_05_05_morenews_archive.html#76276103|Andrew Newman]

03:20:52 <dc_rdfig> added comment J1

03:21:03 <AaronSw> Rohit: wha? you think the web took off because it was cool one-by-one?

03:21:03 <AaronSw> Audience: yes

03:21:46 <AaronSw> TIm Bray: big problem -- webarch does not support metadata

03:21:59 <dajobe-lap> J:see also [http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/2002/05/09/2002-05-09.html#1020972761.905195|earlier blogs]

03:22:00 <dc_rdfig> added comment J2

03:22:49 <DanC> let's put metadata on *some* things; no need to make the drek easier to find.

03:23:21 <jhendler> one person's drek is another person's content - that's the web way

03:23:32 <edd> again: there are real user interface problems to solve here

03:23:33 <dajobe-lap> J:[http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/business/columnists/dan_gillmor/3245249.htm|Dan Gillmor 2002-05-11]

03:23:33 <dc_rdfig> added comment J3

03:23:38 <libby> with the images stuff, privacy is the main problem. people are going to start getting real annoyed soon, especially since it makes their email addreses public...

03:23:40 <DanC> hmm... the "how do I put RDF in HTML" issue in the RDF Core WG has yet to be address. :-{

03:23:44 <AaronSw> We're on the screen again.

03:23:57 <AaronSw> Rohit: did eric just say "I plus one that"?

03:24:32 <AaronSw> search for eric miller! search for eric miller!

03:24:32 <dajobe-lap> J:[http://www.oreillynet.com/cs/weblog/view/wlg/1390|Edd Dumbill - Berners-Lee: Keep the Web Royalty-Free]

03:24:33 <dc_rdfig> added comment J4

03:24:46 <DanC> re one person's drek: well, whoever thinks it's not drek should add metadata.

03:25:31 * timbl765 wireless net at t-300

03:25:39 <libby> erg...

03:26:24 <DanC>http://www.salon.com/books/int/2002/03/25/asians/

03:26:25 <dc_rdfig> K: http://www.salon.com/books/int/2002/03/25/asians/ from DanC

03:26:27 * edd suspects this is not the time to apt-get dist-upgrade

03:26:37 <AaronSw> woody is out??

03:26:41 <dajobe-lap> no, delayed

03:26:46 <DanC> K:"Can Asian's Think?" review in salon

03:26:46 <dc_rdfig> added comment K1

03:26:52 <DanC> K:|"Can Asian's Think?" review in salon

03:26:53 <dc_rdfig> titled item K

03:27:02 <AaronSw> K1:""

03:27:02 <dc_rdfig> deleted comment K1

03:27:21 <DanC> K:current WWW2002 questioner recommends all web developers read this book

03:27:21 <dc_rdfig> added comment K1

03:30:15 <dajobe-lap> (wireless net down any sec)

03:30:25 <libby> noooooo

03:30:43 * edd falls down a well

03:31:00 * DanC caches salon article before wireless goes out

03:31:05 <timbl765> aaaaaaaaaa a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a

03:31:08 <deltab> K:|"Can Asians Think?" review in Salon Books

03:31:08 <dc_rdfig> titled item K

03:31:34 <AaronSw> T-1

03:31:37 * danbri wonders what to cache...

03:31:37 <AaronSw> err T+1

03:31:48 <AaronSw> i think it might be up for a while longer. quick, someone fight off the apple guy

03:32:01 <dajobe-lap> hehe

03:32:04 <danbri> hmm, i got my code on the laptop. fewer additional distractions the better...

03:32:08 * dajobe-lap waves bye

03:32:11 <danbri> bye

03:32:22 * afs waves goodbye

03:32:24 <danbri> BTW all, I"m on vacation next week. Back in bristol from 20/21st!

03:32:26 <AaronSw> [end of session]

03:32:27 <danbri> have a good week :)

03:32:32 <libby> see ya all

03:32:37 <AaronSw> i'm at emerging technologies next week

03:35:12 <timbl765> is it on fink?

03:37:02 <AaronSw> looks like wireless is gone

03:37:10 <AaronSw> oops, it's back

03:37:14 <AaronSw> yep, it's on fink

03:38:34 <deltab> K:|Salon.com Books | "Can Asians Think?"

03:38:34 <dc_rdfig> titled item K

03:40:04 * AaronSw chats with haystack guys

03:40:05 <timbl765> xml can wait -- have crypto, can play.

03:44:04 <AaronSw> haystack guys say adenine is extension of n3script, they will update website soon (have been too busy hacking) and 25% of code is in adenine

03:45:14 * timbl765 hopes aa can persuade hstk guys topublish soon & boften

03:46:26 <AaronSw> hstk?

03:46:44 <AaronSw> oh, haystack

03:46:47 <AaronSw> yeah, i

03:46:51 <AaronSw> i'll talk to them

09:10:06 <grrrr> grrrr has changed the topic to: test

09:10:51 <grrrr> grrrr has changed the topic to: WWW2002 Developers Day After| Projected live on the big screen|wanted, DAML+OIL import mappings of http://iama.rrecktek.com/levin~1.fix /msg gr

09:11:07 <grrrr> grrrr has changed the topic to: WWW2002 Developers Day After| Projected live on the big screen|wanted, DAML+OIL import mappings of http://iama.rrecktek.com/levin~1.fix /msg grrrrr

10:47:20 <grrrr> grrrr is now known as grrrrr

14:50:26 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Hi all. A reminder: OPN is still in urgent need of leaf node servers to fill our main rotation. Bandwidth usage is about 100-200Kbps average. We look for multihomed T3 or better to ensure reliability and good connectivity. We're a volunteer project and we depend on you to help us provide the resources we need. If you'd like to help, please take a look at http://openprojects.net/sponsoring_servers.shtml and email lilo@openprojects.net. Thanks!

15:02:47 <AaronSw> AaronSw is now known as AaronSw-CA-US

18:08:08 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Hi all. A reminder: OPN is still in urgent need of leaf node servers to fill our main rotation. Bandwidth usage is about 100-200Kbps average. We look for multihomed T3 or better to ensure reliability and good connectivity. We're a volunteer project and we depend on you to help us provide the resources we need. If you'd like to help, please take a look at http://openprojects.net/sponsoring_servers.shtml and email lilo@openprojects.net. Thanks!

21:06:14 <CaptSolo> hi!

21:06:23 <CaptSolo> the day after .. :)