Semantic Web Interest Group IRC Chat Logs for 2002-12-19

00:00:28 <libby> D:+[Peter at Euroweb 2002|http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/photos/2002/12/18/Thumbnails/2.jpg]

00:00:28 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D4.

00:00:54 <JibberJim> and in RDF?

00:00:58 <libby> hm

00:01:03 <libby> er...no :)

00:01:10 <libby> not yet anyway

00:01:32 <libby> D:Peter at Euroweb 2002 - on the left

00:01:32 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D5.

00:02:19 <libby> actually loads of people I spoke to were talking about the problem of getting people to actually write any damned metadata...

00:03:18 <JibberJim> that I fear is the real problem especially with images, where us authors gain nothing as we know who's in the photo

00:04:10 <libby> good point

00:04:27 <libby> well except that it sucks not being able to actually find anything

00:04:35 <libby> ...but not enough to do anything about it....

00:05:23 <JibberJim> it's a bit sad, but now I'm thinking about travelling I'm thinking about how I will mark up my travels in DanCon's itinerary stuff, and my photos etc...

00:05:27 <wkearney99> I once did an app that coupled into e-mail and nagged people when they didn't apply metadata.

00:06:17 <wkearney99> since it was work related if they didn't comply the code queried ldap for the supervisor's e-mail address and ratted them out after 3 past their first week's warning.

00:07:02 <wkearney99> metadata compliance at creation stayed low but went up just before first warning messages. then died until the day following their boss getting the mail.

00:10:48 <libby> jim, not sad...cool

00:11:46 <JibberJim> hmm... yeah svg view of the rdf of my travels will be good at the end I guess - it feels very "geek" though.

00:12:04 <libby> how longa are you plannign to go away for?

00:12:35 <JibberJim> until funds run out or there's some other compelling reason...

00:12:52 <libby> heh, cool

00:13:51 <libby> hey bill, I think there might be others with an interest in that sort of software....

00:14:02 * libby gotta go....night all

00:14:42 <JibberJim> ditto

00:24:05 <wkearney99> ah crap, irc just crapped the bed again.

04:54:20 <ChanServ> [#rdfig] This channel is logged and blogged: http://logicerror.com/rdfIRCWelcome

12:50:58 <em-log> em-log is now known as em

16:06:54 <dajobe>http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2002/12/18/dive-into-xml.html

16:06:54 <dc_rdfig> A: http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2002/12/18/dive-into-xml.html from dajobe

16:07:02 <dajobe> A:|What is RSS? by Mark Pilgrim, XML.com

16:07:02 <dc_rdfig> Titled item A.

16:07:42 <sethl> even though rss 1.0 is rdf, I haven't run into a rss 1.0 handler that treats it as a rdf graph :(

16:08:08 <dajobe> well, mine does

16:08:23 <sethl> they all want to parse it like it was an XML document, so I can't just serialize an RDF graph into XML

16:08:33 <sethl> no doubt your stuff rocks :)

16:10:23 <dajobe>http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2002/12/18/xml2002.html

16:10:23 <dc_rdfig> B: http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2002/12/18/xml2002.html from dajobe

16:10:42 <dajobe> B:|Reports from XML 2002 by Eric van der Vlist, XML.com

16:10:42 <dc_rdfig> Titled item B.

16:14:10 <dajobe> B:[[Word 11 has been transformed into a XML editor and can be used to edit any XML document, assuming you can write a W3C XML Schema for it. ]]

16:14:11 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B1.

16:14:36 <JibberJim> a big assumption!

16:14:42 <dajobe> B:or read about OpenOffice; both claim [[XML for the masses]]

16:14:43 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B2.

16:15:31 <dajobe> JibberJim: indeed

16:16:22 <dajobe> B:on writing WXS [[Clark's answer to this request is simple: "don't bother with W3C XML Schema, write your schemas with Relax NG and use Trang to convert them."]]

16:16:22 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B3.

16:21:17 <dajobe> wow, i've made an xsd for rdf/xml

16:21:59 <sethl> nice!

16:22:12 <sethl> "they say it couldn't be done"

16:22:26 <dajobe> but James Clark makes the it possible

16:22:29 <dajobe> s/the//

16:22:48 <DanConn> have you tried trang on it, dajobe?

16:22:53 <dajobe> just used trang

16:23:06 <dajobe> since I always had a relaxng compact schema around

16:23:24 <dajobe> it does give a warning about something being only approximated in WXS

16:23:54 <dajobe> hmm

16:23:57 <dajobe> lots of <xs:any processContents="skip"/>

16:24:04 <dajobe> I guess that's all you can do

16:26:02 <dajobe>http://ilrt.org/discovery/2001/07/rdf-syntax-grammar/rdfxml.xsd

16:26:03 <dc_rdfig> C: http://ilrt.org/discovery/2001/07/rdf-syntax-grammar/rdfxml.xsd from dajobe

16:26:20 <dajobe> C:|An W3C XML Schema for RDF/XML

16:26:20 <dc_rdfig> Titled item C.

16:26:51 <dajobe> C:made via James Clarks' Trang converter, from the [http://ilrt.org/discovery/2001/07/rdf-syntax-grammar/rdfxml.rng|RELAX NG Compact] original

16:26:51 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C1.

16:27:36 <dajobe> C:looks adequate but has lots of 'any' and 'skip' for content some of the attribute restrictions have gone or are not possible to do automatically

16:27:36 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C2.

16:28:20 <dajobe> C:trang said [[cannot represent required wildcard attribute; approximating]] near the propertyAttr term

16:28:20 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C3.

16:29:17 <dajobe> C:my [http://ilrt.org/discovery/2001/09/rdf-xml-schema/|earlier attempts]

16:29:18 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C4.

16:32:53 <dajobe> C:well it seems to [http://www.w3.org/2001/03/webdata/xsv?docAddrs=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Frdf-syntax-grammar%2Fexample07.rdf+http%3A%2F%2Filrt.org%2Fdiscovery%2F2001%2F07%2Frdf-syntax-grammar%2Frdfxml.xsd&style=offline|validate] an [http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-syntax-grammar/example07.rdf|example from the RDF/XML syntax wd]

16:32:53 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C5.

17:01:49 <dajobe> C:excellent. I've got the relaxng compact grammar validating all the syntax examples

17:01:49 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C6.

19:07:46 <libby> hey gk

19:09:45 <DanConn> woohoo! WebOnt closed its last 3 issues today!

19:10:23 <libby> really?

19:10:26 <libby> wow

19:11:51 <JibberJim> quick everyone create some new issues :-)

19:12:04 <gk> Hi Libby, just back from checking the scratchpad. DaveB's postings look interesting on a couple of fronts (tho' I must confess I at first thought that "Word-11" was a blast from the past).

19:14:48 <libby> rdfig.xml.com you mean?

19:14:52 <gk> Hi DanC, am I missing something in my posting at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-interest/2002Dec/0098.html

19:15:40 <gk> Libby, http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/ as advertised on this channel (does that give the same answers?)

19:16:11 <danbri> rdfig.xmlhack.com

19:16:27 <libby> sorry duh

19:18:47 * danbri revisits http://www.mozilla.org/projects/calendar/

19:20:06 <libby> danbri, could you change the subject of the channel to something about the calendar meeting?

19:20:12 <gk> DanBri, does the stuff at http://www.ninebynine.org/SWAD-E/Intro.html#HomeNetAccessDemo align with your aspirations for SWAD-E directions?

19:24:17 <danbri> wow, you've been busy. there's a lot to digest there, but yes, all seems in a v healthy and interesting direction.

19:24:55 <danbri> re network access, i've lately become interest in problem of constraining other's use of an exposed domestic wireless LAN, wonder if similar techniques could work there.

19:32:40 <gkgk> danbri, the ideas are quite primitive -- generate access control data specific to available devices from a (vaguely) common policy spec. In your wireless scenario, you'd need a policy enfircement point of some kind. The rest is just about generating configuration data for it.

19:33:25 <danbri> yes. I have that, I think, in the NoCAT tools

19:33:41 <gkgk> NoCAT?

19:33:42 <danbri> ...ie an enforcement mechanism; just need some rules and evidence to drive it

19:33:59 <danbri> see http://nocat.net/

19:36:01 <gkgk> Ah... I see authentication. I assume the devices you're interested in would also require auth. to allow access?

19:37:51 <danbri> Yup

19:38:31 <danbri> intresting how to hook up 'prove you're xxx / that you've a right to yyy' scenarios with real world of people, passwords and limited attention span, simple mental models etc...

19:40:18 <gkgk> Sounds like a good possibility for a Kerberos-like model?

19:40:49 * danbri embarrasingly ignorant of kerboros details

19:41:47 <gkgk> Because the Kerberos ticket should stand independently of any other network communication state that may come or go -- I'm thinking that wireless access is going to be subject to dropouts, etc, so you don't want the authorization to be bound to lower-level network "session" state.

19:42:20 <danbri> a calenar thought, re the listing at http://www.mozilla.org/projects/calendar/ -- we should make it easier to find calendars, even if only described with a type and Dubln Core... and even if the raw data is in iCal not RDF format. imho.

19:42:46 * danbri thinks they do it by mac address, not sure tho

19:44:01 <gkgk> That stuff I did links to MAC address, too. That would be another way. But MAC address is easily forged (some devices have MAC address spoofing to overcome some arbitrary ISP limitations.)

19:44:48 * danbri nods

19:44:57 * danbri takes a break before cal gathering; back ina bit

19:50:27 * DanConn hacks away on sidekick calendar export...

19:57:06 <DanConn> cool... I can map from somebody's name to the address.sidekick.dngr.com page about them.

19:57:30 <DanConn> (i.e. I can log in, get a listing, and pick the relevant element out of the listing using xpath)

19:59:21 * gkgk looks for background on SideKick

20:00:22 <DanConn> .google WearableGizmo

20:00:23 <datum> WearableGizmo: http://dm93.org/z2001/WearableGizmo

20:00:38 <DanConn> (i get a small commission if you buy one from there)

20:01:09 <DanConn> .time GMT

20:01:09 <datum> Thu, 19 Dec 2002 20:01:09 GMT

20:01:21 <DanConn> ah, well, here we are; libby? DanBri?

20:01:47 * DanConn feels the urge to /invite Zakim and queu up agenda items

20:02:46 <libby> heh

20:02:55 <libby> just a sec..

20:04:51 <danb_lap> evenin' all

20:04:56 <DanConn> BLURB: RDF Calendaring Chat

20:04:56 <dc_rdfig> D: RDF Calendaring Chat from DanConn

20:04:56 * gkgk back from looking at sidekick. Looks maybe US-centric?

20:04:59 <danb_lap> (sorry i'm late)

20:05:03 <DanConn> yes, US-only. sigh.

20:05:13 <DanConn> they plan to launch in europe in 2003

20:05:23 <gkgk> Nearly there ;-)

20:05:31 <DanConn> D:scheduled back on [11Dec|http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/2002/12/11/2002-12-11.html#1039636274.041886]

20:05:31 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D1.

20:05:44 <danb_lap> are you gathering agenda/topics in chump?

20:05:53 <DanConn> yeah... perhaps...

20:06:15 <DanConn> D:agenda + HTML views of calendars (e.g. palmagent XSLT stuff)

20:06:15 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D2.

20:06:33 <libby> hi, sorry I'm late - bit late here - had to make some tea to keep me going

20:06:36 <danb_lap> D:agenda+ Next steps with an ical based RDF cal language?

20:06:36 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D3.

20:06:52 <DanConn> gee... is that any smaller than the whole meeting, danbri?

20:06:57 <gkgk> Topics of interest to me: (a) progress on new schema kicked off at calendaring WS, (b) dealing with recurring events

20:07:07 <DanConn> (a) = 0, from me.

20:07:24 <DanConn> oh... on recurring events... lemme mail out something I was working on...

20:07:55 * DanConn reviews futureEvents.n3 for sensitive info... I was working on my personal calendar...

20:07:56 <gkgk> I worked on something too...

20:08:08 <danb_lap> Well, I think it's a little smaller. I want a namespace and a bunch of terms and for someone else (you folks) to do all the work assembling it. On top of that I'd love to chat about HTML/XSLT tools, recurrence, discovery mechanisms etc.

20:08:29 <danb_lap> The core vocab seems to be a bottleneck re progress though; people keep asking which to use, status etc.

20:08:39 <DanConn> re a namespace: in what way do you not have one? I can think of 3 or 4.

20:08:49 * tim_lap catches up from the log

20:08:53 <danb_lap> Libby'n'co's transliteration of ical has promise but is huge. Your cut down one seems nice and pragmatic.

20:09:27 <gkgk> ... some of my attempts at recurring events in Libby's hybrid vocab are in http://www.ninebynine.org/SWAD-E/Scenario-HomeNetwork/Users.n3 -- look for VCALENDAR objects.

20:10:02 <danb_lap> Yes, 3 or 4. That's the problem re evanagelism/interop. (I'm not criticising btw). If we can agree common ical-based guts of a calendar language, we can explore finer detail in other namespaces

20:10:22 <danb_lap> gkgk, can you chump that for future reference?

20:10:30 <libby> I agree w danbri

20:10:33 <danb_lap> chump== feed to the dc_rdfig bot

20:10:48 <gkgk> Re. namespace, I refer to the note in the workshop report: http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/2002/12/11/2002-12-11.html#1039636274.041886

20:10:52 <libby> peopel are using the icalenmdar one me and michael a did; but there are things wrong with it and its too unmanageable

20:10:57 <tim_lap> The core bits which your stuff uses, danC, are fairly straightforward except perhasp the cal:value thing for a datetime

20:11:01 <danb_lap> DanC, did you say that your vocab is too bound up with the rest of the swap tools to migrate to a separate existence without major effort?

20:11:31 <gkgk> http://www.ninebynine.org/SWAD-E/Scenario-HomeNetwork/Users.n3

20:11:47 <danb_lap> (it doesn't like leading whitespace)

20:11:51 <JibberJim> the date/time bits of the calendar has always put me off building tools, it seems so complicated.

20:11:57 <gkgk>http://www.ninebynine.org/SWAD-E/Scenario-HomeNetwork/Users.n3

20:11:57 <dc_rdfig> E: http://www.ninebynine.org/SWAD-E/Scenario-HomeNetwork/Users.n3 from gkgk

20:12:04 <libby> in what sense jim?

20:12:26 <gkgk> E|Contains an attempt at recurring calendar events, using Libby's Hybrid vocabulary

20:12:39 <gkgk> E:|Contains an attempt at recurring calendar events, using Libby's Hybrid vocabulary

20:12:39 <dc_rdfig> Titled item E.

20:12:53 * gkgk GK forgets how to chump!

20:12:55 <danb_lap> (the | signifies a 'title comment', btw)

20:13:20 <gkgk> E:Look for VCALENDAR objects at end of file. I don't know if they're correct usage.

20:13:20 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E1.

20:13:50 <DanConn> an attempt to do what?

20:13:51 * gkgk danb, thanks ... I forgot the ':' needed as well

20:13:53 <DanConn>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-calendar/2002Dec/0022.html

20:13:54 <dc_rdfig> F: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-calendar/2002Dec/0022.html from DanConn

20:14:00 <libby> I'm dead keen to find out what people are actually using of these types of properties. jims harvester and mine is useful for that

20:14:05 <DanConn> F:|futureEvents.n3: an excercise in processing recurring events

20:14:05 <dc_rdfig> Titled item F.

20:14:20 <danb_lap> E:I've long wondered about using rdf classes to model event recurrence, btw.

20:14:21 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E2.

20:15:04 <DanConn> yes, cal:value is a mess. Since we decided ical2rdf.pl should look inside datestrings to convert YYYYMMDD to YYYY-MM-DD, the clean way to do that is to handle datatypes properly...

20:15:04 <gkgk> E:Libby also mentioned some work that Greg F has done ("Orlando"?)

20:15:05 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E3.

20:15:18 <DanConn> i.e. to do the default reasoning about ical datatypes in the ical2rdf syntax conversion layer.

20:15:22 <tim_lap> I'm using DanC's code and start dateTime, end dadatetime, summary and UID only at the moment. I wish calendars supported URLs in the GUI - I'd use that too.

20:15:54 <DanConn> how would you use that, timbl?

20:16:05 <libby>http://jibbering.com/2002/12/pred.1?predicate=http%3A%2F%2Filrt.org%2Fdiscovery%2F2001%2F06%2Fschemas%2Fical-full%2Fhybrid.rdf%23DTSTART&search=

20:16:05 <dc_rdfig> G: http://jibbering.com/2002/12/pred.1?predicate=http%3A%2F%2Filrt.org%2Fdiscovery%2F2001%2F06%2Fschemas%2Fical-full%2Fhybrid.rdf%23DTSTART&search= from libby

20:16:06 <danb_lap> I really don't know what to do re vocab. DanC seems happy w/ status quo. Libby seems fed up w/ hugeness of the literal ical translation. Suggestions anyone?

20:16:25 <libby> G:|Jim's Ley's database - a sample search for an icalendar predicate

20:16:26 <dc_rdfig> Titled item G.

20:16:28 <DanConn> ids for ical:Event's are tricky... it's really an id for an event record, not an event.

20:16:44 * tim_lap much prefers datetimes to splitting the hour up a la icalutil:hour "11" ;

20:16:45 <DanConn> suggestions for what, danb? what do you want that you don't have?

20:16:51 <tim_lap> ID for record - why?

20:17:03 <libby> year datetimes are better

20:17:10 <libby> s/year/yeah

20:17:10 <DanConn> id: because it's got stuff like alarm properties and such

20:17:27 <danb_lap> I want an answer to questions such as "I'm psyched to use RDF, and hear there's a lot of energy around RDF calendaring. Please point me at the RDF cal vocab so I can get busy building nifty tools..."

20:17:46 <danb_lap> ...an answer that doesn't involve pointing people into the guts of SWAP/cwm stuff, or the full scaryness of iCalendar.

20:17:47 <DanConn> i.e. the same telcon can be in my datebook and yours, but I don't think that licenses the conclusion that the ical:alarm properties are the same in both our calendars

20:18:01 <gkgk> E:Here it is - http://www.idealliance.org/papers/xml2001/papers/html/05-04-06.html

20:18:01 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E4.

20:18:03 * danb_lap nods re event record vs event

20:18:03 * libby agrees danbri

20:18:12 <DanConn> ill-formed question. "the RDF cal vocab" has more than one referent

20:18:23 <tim_lap> danbri, I don't think danc's stuff has dependencies on swap, does it danc?

20:18:25 <danb_lap> OK, but thats the kind of question I hear.

20:18:53 <danb_lap> We could answer with "you're asking the wrong question. There are several vocabs for events in RDF."

20:19:21 <danb_lap> But then we get to answer the obvious followup: "OK, which do I use? what are their strengths / weaknesses?"

20:19:23 <gkgk> True, but unhelpful?

20:19:33 <danb_lap> yup, alienatingly unhelpful.

20:19:39 <DanConn> I'd answer with "if you're after something mature, you'll probably be disappointed. If you're game for alpha testing, read the www-rdf-calendar archives and join the fun"

20:20:11 <tim_lap> re record vs event, I think we will have to get used to moving from a naive property "event1 cal:reminderNoise :bell" to the more globally valid "user u1 likes to have a reminderNoise :bell for tevent e1". This will happen all the time.

20:20:13 <gkgk> So the calendar WS report says we'd start with your schema and work on that. AT least it can be a focus for efforts?

20:20:18 <JibberJim> my problem with the datetimes, is that whenever you look at some cal RDF, it's defining timezones within the document, that seems alien.

20:20:23 <danb_lap> So the question --- classic semweb story -- we ask ourselves here, is how might we get from current state of play to something approaching maturity?

20:20:41 <gkgk> Work together?

20:20:57 <libby> one issue I have is that e.g. when gkgk says 'not sure if using the properties right' - I don;t know, because the icalendar semantics are unclear

20:21:15 <DanConn> er... the calendar workshop doesn't say that any longer, does it? I begged off my overly hopeful "two week turn-around" stuff.

20:21:19 <libby> jim, so you'd like a timezones vocab somewhere?

20:21:25 <tim_lap> defining tzones within the document is very RDF really: byou can include extra info about related things where that will help.

20:21:27 <libby> I took the 'two weeks' out

20:21:28 <danb_lap> aka "crossing the chasm", a la http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0887307175/102-0122664-7686521?vi=glance

20:21:31 <gkgk> The nature of standards work that gives it extra weight is the community review and consensus

20:21:48 * DanConn just gets anxious when danbri asks those "how do we get there from here?" questions; wishes he'd make suggestions.

20:22:06 <JibberJim> I'd certainly like them seeAlso'd into a single doc. so I "know" that information without parsing it each time.

20:22:25 <danb_lap> OK. I propose we adopt whatever DanC has done, and start shaping it into something like a W3C Note document _an_ approach to RDF calendaring.

20:22:25 <JibberJim> even if it needs to be done within RDF, rather than giving each TZ a uri.

20:22:29 <DanConn> ical2rdf.pl works on timezone stuff

20:22:41 <DanConn> who'se "we"?

20:22:43 <danb_lap> ...and merge in stuff from Libby/ical/graham etc as we can show use/motivation from real apps.

20:22:52 <danb_lap> Me.

20:23:02 * gkgk ah, the royal "we"?

20:23:03 <tim_lap> suggestion: the make a layered schema soemwhere, with a set of stabler stuff of danc's and a line @@@@ and the best bet at the wackier stuff after that.

20:23:29 <DanConn> there's an engineering/practical dependency on swap: it has the commits-go-to-the-right-place-in-http property *and* the world-readable-cvs-repository property

20:23:48 <tim_lap> ?

20:23:58 <libby> re layered: yeah, so the main bit would be short

20:24:01 <danb_lap> Wonder if something like stable-vs-testing branches would work for collaborative RDF schema development...

20:24:15 <libby> it's putting off all but incredibly committed people doing phds and things

20:24:39 <libby> it's the developement bit that's interesting I think

20:24:43 <danb_lap> s/me/Me and anyone who'll do that actual work of documenting/editing/

20:24:53 <tim_lap> Actually I think any standard would usefully have two levels anyway.

20:25:05 <danb_lap> I volunteer to help with w3.org site issues (cvs etc) but no real work pre RDFS Last Call WD

20:25:05 <gkgk> Only two?

20:25:30 * DanConn thinks cvs etc. are the real work of the worst kind ;-)

20:25:54 * libby wronders if we could scrape/persuade timeandtime.com re timezone stuff

20:25:58 <DanConn> The CVS issues are pretty central to the collaboration problems here.

20:25:59 <gkgk> I'd be happy to see DanCs "emchanical" schema put at a consensus URI, and start migrating my stuff to it and seeing what throws up.

20:26:37 <libby> there is;t a huge number of people using the other one. and e.g. terry payne said he'd look at danC's one I think\

20:26:41 <danb_lap> I think we're all here very interested in some of the more esoteric aspects of this, but missing some potential for widespread deployment of something simple at an http://www.icalshare.com/ sort of a level.

20:26:51 <DanConn> I'd like a URI that's writable by everybody who'se willing to be accuntable to www-rdf-calendar

20:27:15 <libby> paul buhler is getting narked because he wants to add stuff to the schema, but wants proper versionjing in place first

20:27:19 <gkgk> Maybe migration from the old one can he helped by some tentatively documented equivalences?

20:27:26 <danb_lap> ignoring typo, what does being accountable amount to, re www-rdf-calendar?

20:27:47 <danb_lap> to which schema, libby? yours or danc's?

20:27:58 <DanConn> it means (a) when you make commits, you announce them, and (b) if objections come up within a week or so, you roll back

20:28:25 <gkgk> Yes ... That's what we said at the WS

20:28:25 <libby> well mine, but mightbe persaudable, esp if use gkgk's suggestion about equivalnces

20:28:38 <gkgk> Er, s/we/you/, but I agree

20:28:38 <libby> I think that's a nice idea

20:29:07 <DanConn> libby, graham, do you have write access to, say, http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/* ?

20:29:16 <libby> I think it would give a lot of energy to the mailiong list

20:29:19 <gkgk> Me, no (to my knowledge)

20:29:34 <DanConn> do you have cvs access to any part of http://www.w3.org/*?

20:29:34 <libby> well I believe I could have cos I have cvs access to part of the site from SWAD-E

20:29:41 <danb_lap> Libby has CVS access to W3C site; to date we've agreed only write access under /2001/sw/Europe/ but could be expanded easily.

20:29:50 <gkgk> [CVS access] Not to my knowledge

20:30:17 <gkgk> [CVS access] Talking write access, I assume

20:30:36 <libby> there are lots of people who have/could contribute to it

20:30:44 <DanConn> my concern here is that we announce stuff and folks ask me to commit changes for them. I don't want to be a bottleneck

20:30:47 <danb_lap> yup, write access.

20:31:14 <danb_lap> I don't want to be a bottleneck either. My inclination is to ask libby to be chief bottleneck w.r.t. calendar stuff...

20:31:24 <libby> I don't mind doing that.

20:31:31 <DanConn> ooh... that's Very Generous!

20:31:36 <gkgk> I vote for Libby as bottleneck-in-chief

20:31:37 * tim_lap notes libby there is a definitive timezone tar file which lost of people use - a version in RDF would be a good move - may already exist.

20:31:41 <danb_lap> also having someone out of the Cwm/swap loop keeping eye on the schema might be helpful

20:31:57 * libby wonders what she's let herself in for

20:32:01 <DanConn> I made an RDF version of one of the files from that tar file, timbl; it's straightforward to do the rest...

20:32:13 <libby> tim_lap, oh yes, I reamember that

20:32:14 <danb_lap> If we make a base namespace uri, eg http://www.w3.org/2002/cal/ we could make ...core

20:32:18 <libby> oh great :)

20:32:39 <gkgk> Noting Libby's concern: I suggest the first priority here is to build a core "common schema" based (more or less) on iCalendar

20:32:41 <danb_lap> er ...core#, ...recur# ....tzinfo# namespaes in the same corner of the web

20:33:01 <danb_lap> ...starting with the basics for http://www.icalshare.com/, palm etc data exchange

20:33:06 <DanConn> I propose nothing goes in the "common schema" unless there's a test data file that shows how it's used.

20:33:16 <danb_lap> That seems wise.

20:33:17 <gkgk> DanC, yes!

20:33:24 <libby> nice yep

20:33:47 <tim_lap> One very sensible approach is to make an iCal: which is really for a syntactic mapping only and cal: which is much better modelled.

20:33:59 <danb_lap> So a sample .rdf file for each feature is good. Do you have any specific ideas re "show how its used" beyond having a copy of a file that uses it?

20:34:19 <danb_lap> tim_lap, that's close to the current situation, I think

20:34:24 <DanConn> logger, pointer?

20:34:24 <DanConn> See http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2002-12-19#T20-34-24

20:34:33 <libby> danb_lap, is it?

20:34:33 <gkgk> Tim, even if it's a syntactic mapping, don't we also need to know what it means to map to something "better modelled"?

20:34:55 <tim_lap> How its used: Test cases for conversion to and from iCal format, plus a description in the summary field "This event should happen on every sunday except 16thJuly".

20:35:05 <danb_lap> maybe not. I thought the hybrid was close to a literalistic mapping, in that it tries to carry thru everything. but maybe there's enough hand crafting?

20:35:15 * DanConn wishes for a w3.org backup of the #rdfig logs

20:35:16 <danb_lap> (...for it not to be syntactic, i mean)

20:35:20 <gkgk> DanB, add comments that explain what it's *meant* to mean? (Which, BTW, seems to be the only wat that RFC2445 explains recurring events)

20:35:46 <libby> I think the prob with the hybrid that we identified at the workshop was that we had to make arbitrary decisions

20:35:47 <tim_lap> gk, we do but we can cross that bridge later as cal grows, and use iCal to transport weirdnesses maybe in the meantime.

20:36:02 <DanConn> no, this schema is not about "better modelling". it's about modelling ical as-she-are-spoke.

20:36:53 * tim_lap action DanConn, send sysreq to clone the chump and log sites?

20:37:08 * DanConn please do, timbl

20:37:09 <gkgk> My problem was in two parts: (1) I needed to figure out how to represent myschedule in Icalendar, then (2) figure how to map that into the chosen RDF schema.

20:37:09 <danb_lap> clone the sites, or just grab the tar.gz?

20:37:16 * danb_lap ducks both actions

20:37:44 <DanConn> D:a [cal play space|http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/]

20:37:44 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D4.

20:37:58 <libby> gkgk right and (1) is difficult - at the workshop it seemed hat say mozilla and iCal (apple) do it slightly differently

20:38:18 <DanConn> libby, please sign your name to the HEADER.html in that calendar play space

20:38:37 <libby> we did talk about lots of sample data though, which would help; I giuess aslo there's a ton of iCal data out tehre now

20:38:47 <gkgk> Libby, ... thinks... so maybe we build incrementally from the RDF end towards iCalendar, because we can say what the RDF means?

20:38:50 * danb_lap wonders what HEADER.html does; shows up in filetree browse?

20:39:05 <DanConn> take a look, danbri. yes.

20:39:12 <tim_lap> re test cases: cal could be a lot more solid than iCalendar!

20:39:24 <gkgk> Lots of data, but very little I found with recurring events.

20:39:32 <libby> dannconn - I don;t know what you mean.... re header.html

20:39:36 <danb_lap> I'm seeing some value in what (I thnk) timbl suggested, ie. have .ical, .ical-as-rdf, and .nicecal-rdf files as test cases

20:39:49 <libby> gkgk maybe....

20:39:56 <DanConn> best place to get ical data is to fire up evolution/korganizer/mozilla-calendar/apple:ical and make some

20:40:16 * gkgk dinner arrives, thanks Mandy!

20:40:22 <DanConn> I mean check it out with CVS, put your name in the signature (i.e. the <address> tag) and cvs commit it

20:40:38 <DanConn> perhaps put a para ala "contributions welcome via www-rdf-calendar"

20:40:43 <danb_lap> (doing that now)

20:41:33 <DanConn> well, I mean to test libby's ability to do so

20:43:01 * danb_lap returns libby's laptop to her

20:43:02 <libby> yep that looks strightforward

20:43:41 * DanConn wonders about time expectations; I don't have any obligations at the top of the hour

20:43:42 <danb_lap> so http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/ works as a space some of us can write to, and www-rdf-calendar can contribute to.

20:43:51 <gkgk> So, when generating data from evolution/...etc, the plan would be to check the RDF test case at two levels? (1) that the syntactic mapping makes sense, and (2) that the RDF means the same as the application claims it meant?

20:44:05 <DanConn> er... well, (2) is by definition, no?

20:44:13 * danb_lap needs to wind up at 9pm aka top of the hour

20:44:36 <gkgk> DanC, if so, I'm missing something.

20:44:54 * libby can potter on a bit but might have to go celebrate with a newly phd'ed friend

20:45:37 <DanConn> I take my evolution calendar.ics file; I wrote a perl script to convert it to RDF. I don't mean to change its meaning in doing so. I declare that the semantics of the namespace in the perl script are grounded in the operation of tools like evolution etc.

20:45:57 <DanConn> agenda + next meeting?

20:46:17 <libby> there might be an issues there if different tools handle things differently. not sure how widespread that is

20:46:18 <DanConn> (and grounded in the IETF process around the ical RFC)

20:46:22 <gkgk> So, if different tools generate data for the same event, how to resolve?

20:46:25 <libby> good plan re agenda

20:46:41 <libby> gkgk I think that's a good question

20:46:52 <DanConn> what's to resolve? if the semantics are poorly understood and not interoperable, then they just are.

20:46:54 <libby> though calsch wg do do interpop testoing

20:47:01 <danb_lap> So what do we have by way of datasets to get testing around? I could grab say a dozen URLs from calshare... though I fear we'd be testing ical syntax issues as much as anything.

20:47:13 <danb_lap> (lets talk next meeting 1st...)

20:47:26 <libby> can we make it ealrier and not thurs? :)

20:47:38 <DanConn> yeah, well, ical syntax issues are worth tackling, to me.

20:47:47 <libby> (I normally have a committment till 9 on thurs)

20:47:57 <danb_lap> Next meeting time constraints: I'd like it to be no later than 6pm UK time, 1pm Eastern US.

20:47:57 <libby> (and it's my only exercise for the week)

20:48:05 <gkgk> DanC, I thought part of the problem here was that iCalendar was known(?) to be underspecified in some respects, so we needed to isolate items on which there is consensus and work from there

20:48:09 <danb_lap> I'm happy w/ IRC only (ie no telecon bridge) for now.

20:48:13 <libby> it is pretty late here, will limit participation

20:48:24 <danb_lap> and limits active braincells, for me anyway...

20:48:36 <DanConn> { _:nextMeeting cyc:before ... bummer; can't do it real-time ;-)

20:48:46 <danb_lap> :)

20:48:48 <danb_lap> January 2003

20:48:48 <danb_lap> Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa

20:48:48 <danb_lap> 1 2 3 4

20:48:48 <danb_lap> 5 6 7 8 9 10 11

20:48:48 <danb_lap> 12 13 14 15 16 17 18

20:48:49 <danb_lap> 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

20:48:51 <danb_lap> 26 27 28 29 30 31

20:48:51 <DanConn> pls suggest a time when you *can* meet

20:49:22 <libby> gkgk I think yopu might be right (and you've read it more recelty than I have) but looking at some exported files might give us a clue (they're probably fairly simple I think)

20:49:31 <DanConn> bummer the gnome desktop URL buttons don't go "if there's already a window open on that URL, just raise it; don't open another one"

20:49:40 * libby looks in 3 calendars :(

20:50:04 <danb_lap> propose Weds 8th Jan. Any time 9am-6pm UK time.

20:50:14 * tim_lap looks in 3 calendars all the time, nice with ical

20:50:21 <DanConn> pick an address in dateandtime.com, pls

20:50:35 <gkgk> I think there's probably a lot of stuff we *can* agree about... what to do when we get to stuff that's less clear?

20:50:36 <DanConn> or tell me u.s. central time

20:50:51 <DanConn> less clear: don't accept it in the test suite.

20:51:15 <DanConn> time here in KC: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=405

20:51:31 <tim_lap> re tests ... some consistency/validation rules would be interesting too.

20:51:33 <danb_lap> propose 2003-01-08 1.00pm EST

20:51:44 <libby> fine by me

20:52:31 <DanConn> Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 9:00:00 AM Chicago time 3:00:00 PM UTC http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?day=8&month=1&year=2002&hour=9&min=0&sec=0&p1=64

20:52:39 <DanConn> huh? 8Jan isn't a Tue, is it?

20:52:55 <JibberJim> 8th's a wed

20:52:56 <DanConn> er... isn't a Wed

20:53:00 <danb_lap> [danbri:pts/60] tux:~> cal 01 2003

20:53:00 <danb_lap> January 2003

20:53:00 <danb_lap> Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa

20:53:00 <danb_lap> 1 2 3 4

20:53:00 <danb_lap> 5 6 7 8 9 10 11

20:53:02 <libby> it is a wed

20:53:04 * DanConn got wrong year...

20:53:09 <libby> they've got 2002 that url

20:53:23 <libby> heheh

20:53:24 * danb_lap grins the grin of someone who needs calendars more than calendars need him

20:53:50 <gkgk> DanC, OK, so your applications define an initial consensus. Good. At some stage, I think we want to look beyond that.

20:53:54 <DanConn> Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 1:00:00 PM Boston time http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?day=8&month=1&year=2003&hour=13&min=0&sec=0&p1=43

20:54:18 <danb_lap> JibberJim, feature request for http://www.jibbering.com/2002/8/foaf-people-map.svg -- some representation of timezones overlaid on the globe would be v nice

20:54:29 <libby> great

20:54:52 <DanConn> RESOLVED. Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 1:00:00 PM Boston time http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?day=8&month=1&year=2003&hour=13&min=0&sec=0&p1=43

20:54:52 <JibberJim> hmm.... I haven't got that info in RDF.

20:54:55 <DanConn> logger, pointer?

20:54:55 <DanConn> See http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2002-12-19#T20-54-55

20:55:09 <DanConn> anybody care to announce to www-rdf-calendar?

20:55:10 <JibberJim> I know which timezone many of the airports are in, but not any more...

20:55:17 <tim_lap> DTSTART;TZID=US/Eastern:20030108T130000

20:55:48 <libby> yep, I can announce it

20:56:00 * tim_lap would paste in teh whole event except that the moz chat buffer won't take >1 line :-/

20:56:08 * danb_lap suggests someone (=libby) encode it in a .ical file in /2002/12/cal/

20:56:15 <DanConn> mail the .ics record to www-rdf-calendar, timbl?

20:56:19 <danb_lap> tim, yes pls

20:56:27 <DanConn> I can convert it to .rdf

20:56:32 <libby> heh, good plan

20:56:35 <danb_lap> or save in the new cal/ directory

20:56:41 <DanConn> right.

20:57:22 <DanConn> anybody care to address the issue of public read-only cvs access to 2002/12/cal?

20:57:26 * gkgk laboriously pastes details to PalmPilot app ... better than writing (given my scrawl)

20:57:39 <DanConn> gkgk, have you tried palmagent?

20:58:00 <gkgk> Not yet ... is that a Win app?

20:58:04 <danb_lap> DanConn, can you give me any pointers re how you achieved that for SWAP?

20:58:16 <DanConn> see mail from timbl to sysreq

20:58:22 <DanConn> I didn't do it.

20:58:31 <DanConn> I told some folks about it in mail to www-archive though.

20:58:39 <DanConn> .google palmagent

20:58:40 <datum> palmagent: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2001/palmagent/

20:58:53 <DanConn> no explicit windows support...

20:59:03 <DanConn> though no particular conflict with windows.

20:59:11 <danb_lap> timbl, are you saving the ical file for us?

20:59:46 * DanConn wonders about public key exchange...

20:59:47 <gkgk> yes... I'm just looking. Being an older dog it sometimes takes me longer to pick up new tricks

21:00:34 <tim_lap> Meeting ics is in http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/test/mtg.ics

21:00:49 <DanConn> public CVS for swap stuff (cwm, n3, ...) Fri, May 25 2001 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2001May/0007

21:00:53 <gkgk> http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/test/mtg.ics is "forbidden" to me

21:00:54 <dc_rdfig> H: http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/test/mtg.ics from gkgk

21:01:06 <libby> yep, me too

21:01:16 <tim_lap> hang on

21:01:17 <gkgk> Er, sorry, can a chump be deleted?

21:01:50 * tim_lap try again

21:02:06 <libby> cool, yep, ok

21:02:13 <dajobe> gkgk: if you like

21:02:27 <libby> leave it now, useful

21:02:51 <libby> H:|next meeting about RDF and iCalendar on #rdfig

21:02:51 <dc_rdfig> Titled item H.

21:03:03 * danb_lap updates http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-calendar/ front page to mention new filetree and the swad-e report.

21:03:07 <libby> H:|next meeting about RDF and iCalendar on #rdfig (as iCalendar)

21:03:07 <dc_rdfig> Titled item H.

21:03:11 <danb_lap> ...it'll only show once someone's posted a msg to the list, btw.

21:03:25 <DanConn> H:also [in DanC's calendar|http://calendar.sidekick.dngr.com/event?id=128] though you can't see it.

21:03:25 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H1.

21:03:41 <tim_lap> So who has the ball on a writable swap space?

21:03:52 <danb_lap> re access control, shall we resolve to have that filetree automatically set access control to 'public readable'?

21:04:00 <danb_lap> 'writable swap space'?

21:04:09 * DanConn is puzzled by tim's question too

21:04:12 <danb_lap> r/w cvs for collaborators?

21:04:26 <DanConn> yes, please set up the auto-chacl-public for 2002/12/cal/ , danbri

21:04:28 <danb_lap> a la dev.w3.org (where more folk have access...)

21:04:29 <tim_lap> DanConn public CVS for swap stuff (cwm, n3, ...) Fri, May 25 2001 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2001May/0007

21:05:01 <libby> should we talk about an agenda for next time?

21:05:14 <danb_lap> H:admin info [http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2001May/0007|details on cvs access setup]

21:05:14 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H2.

21:05:26 <tim_lap> Anyone know a calendar agent that handles hypertext links from an event?

21:05:31 <gkgk> Libby, ... or collect an agenda on the list?

21:06:14 <gkgk> I'd suggest a key item is progress on the "common schema"

21:06:18 <DanConn> ironically, http://calendar.sidekick.dngr.com/event?id=128 does not. they make links out of URIs in other notes, but not calendar notes. :{

21:06:25 * danb_lap looks for the autoACL request protocol (what to ask the systems team...)

21:06:45 <tim_lap> It would be easy to add to phpicalendar

21:06:53 <DanConn> progress on the common schema is pretty generic... pls refine to: solicit how-to writers and test data

21:07:06 <gkgk> OK

21:07:13 <libby> sounds good

21:07:14 * tim_lap late for other meeting

21:07:20 <DanConn> gkgk, I'm free to talk recuring foo now, if you are

21:07:20 * libby brain slowing

21:07:37 <libby> I'll send a note round www-rdf-calendar

21:07:39 <gkgk> Sure, I guess the answer is simple, even if the problem isn't

21:07:44 <danb_lap> yup re tests

21:08:15 <DanConn> which problem, gkgk?

21:08:18 * libby wonders how-to do what's

21:09:00 <DanConn> how to: use palmagent. how to get RDF from evolution.

21:09:14 <DanConn> how to get going with mozilla calendar. we outlined a few how-to opportunities at the workshop, no?

21:09:38 <DanConn> how to convert from ical to palmpilot

21:09:44 <libby> okey dokey

21:09:50 * DanConn browses Users.n3 ...

21:09:53 * danb_lap requests public ACL automation

21:10:24 <gkgk> Recurring foo... just lost web page, looking...

21:10:48 <danb_lap> (scribbling this for later) "How do I describe my .ical files in RDF, so that others with .ical tools can find them?"

21:11:16 <DanConn> ooh... Users.n3 is cool... I have an .n3 file of my home network, though the only machine-consumption I've done is a diagram: http://www.w3.org/2001/02pd/opksnet.png

21:11:39 <DanConn> hm... how would .ical tools find RDF data? oh well.

21:12:06 <DanConn> from http://www.w3.org/2001/02pd/opksnet.n3

21:12:35 <danb_lap> I have Mozilla and Apple tools that consume ical files; I'd like to use RDF tools (eg. my harvesting gadgets) to discover the ical files, and feed them in their raw ical non-rdf state to ical tools

21:12:57 <danb_lap> RDF in this case making it easy to find the calendars, rather than representing their date-oriented payload

21:13:07 <gkgk> You've put a lot more into your network description than I did; mine's minimum I could use to describe enough to set up access control files

21:13:40 <DanConn> I was just gonna say you've put a lot more into yours than I have in mine. ;-)

21:14:01 <gkgk> Different things, I guess.

21:14:04 * JibberJim thinks some sort of way to say in RDF what might be contained at the end of a seeAlso would be very useful.

21:14:44 <DanConn> you actually get router control data out of Users.n3? how?

21:15:31 <gkgk> For recurring event, I've assumed that the properties combine in a fairly ad-hoc way. I found that some MUST NOT be omitted if RDF semantics were to be honoured.

21:15:57 <DanConn> E:

21:15:57 <dc_rdfig>http://www.ninebynine.org/SWAD-E/Scenario-HomeNetwork/Users.n3

21:15:58 <dc_rdfig> Contains an attempt at recurring calendar events, using Libby's Hybrid vocabulary

21:15:59 <dc_rdfig> (1:gkgk) Look for VCALENDAR objects at end of file. I don't know if they're correct usage.

21:16:00 <dc_rdfig> (2:danb_lap) I've long wondered about using rdf classes to model event recurrence, btw.

21:16:01 <dc_rdfig> (3:gkgk) Libby also mentioned some work that Greg F has done ("Orlando"?)

21:16:01 <gkgk> Not full router control, just enough to set up the access control lists... fetching URI...

21:16:02 <dc_rdfig> (4:gkgk) Here it is - http://www.idealliance.org/papers/xml2001/papers/html/05-04-06.html

21:16:20 <DanConn> E4:Here is [Orlando|http://www.idealliance.org/papers/xml2001/papers/html/05-04-06.html]

21:16:20 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment E4.

21:16:29 * danb_lap makes http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/test/ public readable dir

21:17:01 <gkgk> This is paryt of Cisco config: http://www.ninebynine.org/SWAD-E/Scenario-HomeNetwork/Config/IOS-accesslists.conf

21:17:23 <DanConn> F:to [www-rdf-calendar|http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-calendar/]

21:17:23 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F1.

21:17:45 <DanConn> how do you get from .n3 to .conf, gkgk?

21:17:54 <DanConn> using cwm with --strings?

21:18:29 <gkgk> I use my own "GenReport.py" program, which has a combination of (simple) RDF query engine and report generator. Looking for URI...

21:18:43 <DanConn> ah...

21:19:00 <DanConn> E:[access control experiment|http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-calendar/2002Dec/0021.html] message provides some background

21:19:01 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E5.

21:19:04 <gkgk> The input file that defines the transformation is: http://www.ninebynine.org/SWAD-E/Scenario-HomeNetwork/ConfigFiles.n3

21:20:12 <gkgk> If you look closely at this, you'll see that I didn't get far along the path of possible inferences; thus far, the idea is to illustrate an idea rather than fully implement it.

21:20:37 * DanConn notes Copyright (c) 2002, G. KLYNE , wonders about copyright issues in SWAD-E stuff... never mind...

21:20:44 <gkgk> But I'm thinking it might be cool to use soimething like this to generate firewall configurations for a Linux/IPChains based firewall/router

21:21:08 <DanConn> yes, please, save us from the ipchains config nightmare

21:21:23 <DanConn> rep:else? hmm...

21:21:32 <gkgk> The copyright is a default... should be changed to CLRC... but in any case, the content is public and free for re-use.

21:23:00 <gkgk> re. rep:else. When I did the report generator, I didn't try to think about matching the formal semantics. Maybe that's problematic, but by its nature the report genrator is working of closed data in the things I've done with it.

21:23:38 <DanConn> sure, seems like good stuff.

21:23:49 <gkgk> (BTW, that report generator itself is not SWAD-E work, but it's still free and open.)

21:23:59 <DanConn> heh... playing with cwm bugs... http://www.ninebynine.org/SWAD-E/Scenario-HomeNetwork/PlayRules.n3

21:24:16 <gkgk> Aha, yes, I wanted to ask you about that.

21:24:24 <DanConn> I don't expect I can help.

21:24:33 <DanConn> when cwm falls over, I file a bug just like everybody else.

21:24:44 <DanConn> (file a bug = write to timbl, copy www-archive+n3bugs)

21:24:59 <gkgk> *SHOULD* it be possible for CWM to support recursive rules ala those about rule:append?

21:25:05 <gkgk> (thanks)

21:26:10 <gkgk> I see no reason why not. I suspect the problem is with the symbol generator logic, but that's only a guess.

21:26:28 <DanConn> cwm has special code for first/rest. it's not bug-free.

21:26:52 <DanConn> the first rule in PlayRules.n3 seems to say "P => P"

21:27:04 <DanConn> oh... no.. hmm...

21:27:37 <DanConn> yes, that rule makes sense... though it's perhaps more useful the other way around...

21:28:10 <gkgk> ? (This is my first attempt at this kind of "non-obvious" rule, so pointers are appreciated)

21:28:47 <gkgk> What I'm expecting this rule to do is instantiate ?A as the augmented list.

21:29:05 <DanConn> sorry, my head hurts trying to puzzle this over. I don't see anything wrong. That rule should match that one Test case.

21:29:47 <gkgk> The output from this is at... http://www.ninebynine.org/SWAD-E/Scenario-HomeNetwork/Config/PlayResults.n3

21:29:53 <DanConn> ah... well, I can imagine that cwm's head hurts when you try to use anything other than a bnode as the subject of a first/rest triple.

21:30:09 <gkgk> The rule appears to match just once.

21:30:10 * DanConn tends to a domestic issue...

21:30:32 <gkgk> Aha!

21:38:28 * DanConn returns from diaper duty...

21:38:29 <DanConn> aha what?

21:39:17 <gkgk> Aha! about your comment re bNodes

21:41:24 <libby> night all, cheers for chat :)

21:41:44 <gkgk> I need to reboot this m/c, and rejoin my family. Will send report to TimBL.

21:41:51 <gkgk> Bye Libby, (and all)

23:21:42 <soc> anyone attend the iCal meeting here?

23:22:16 <danbri_> yup. see http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/ for the logs

23:24:52 <soc> what's the most functional freely available iCal application with palm conduits?

23:24:59 <soc> evolution?

23:25:24 <danbri_> I have no idea, sorry. www-rdf-calendar would be a good place to enquire...

23:25:50 <soc> any other irc channels you know of to ask on?

23:26:11 * soc can't handle list latency today

23:59:46 <danbri_> (latently) nope, mailing list better bet. patience :)