Semantic Web Interest Group IRC Chat Logs for 2003-01-08

00:17:18 * niq waves .. anyone there?

00:26:13 <niq> I have two successive arcs with the same label. It doesn't seem right, but how do I fix it?

01:16:26 <bediako> ping

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01:58:53 <icepick-away> icepick-away is now known as icepick

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13:08:56 <aharth> hi

13:09:57 <sandro> hello

13:11:02 <aharth> i need some ad-hoc rdf/rdfs support :)

13:12:41 <aharth> is there a quick way - without using jena or too much programming - to convert from rdf/rdfs to plain xml (or html)?

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13:15:46 <aharth> %*(&^ irc server

13:15:59 <dajobe> do you want an application or just some advice?

13:16:49 <dajobe> I don't see what you mean by convert. plain xml is meaningless

13:17:51 <dajobe> try viewing rdf via http://brownsauce.sourceforge.net/

13:18:04 <aharth> something to solve my problem :). ok, i modelled some subclass/superclass relationships and need to include some of the information there in my thesis paper, so i need to convert from rdf to something flat...

13:18:29 <dajobe> you want a visualisation of the class and property relationships

13:18:49 <aharth> yes

13:18:52 <dajobe> I don't know if brownsauce can do that explicitly; it'll show relationships but per-class

13:19:24 <dajobe> I assumed you tried http://www.w3.org/RDF/Validator/ and made a graph

13:19:33 <dajobe> maybe if you extract out just the triples you need, and use that?

13:20:00 <dajobe> you could also try http://www.dfki.uni-kl.de/frodo/RDFSViz/

13:20:04 <aharth> i already used the frodo rdfsviz tool to generate a hierarchy view of my class relationships

13:20:16 <aharth> :)

13:20:52 <dajobe> I'm not sure what you mean by "to something flat" then

13:20:58 <dajobe> triples?

13:21:29 <aharth> what i want now is to generate something like a linked list out of the rdf bunch, to model a sequence of events

13:21:46 <icepick> icepick is now known as icepick-away

13:21:50 <aharth> hard to explain...

13:21:51 <dajobe> maybe you could make something like that with n3

13:21:59 <dajobe> but it might be something you'd have to do yourself

13:22:05 <aharth> n3 is the triple format?

13:22:16 <dajobe> and more

13:22:43 <dajobe> try starting here http://infomesh.net/2001/cwm/

13:22:58 <aharth> is cwm somehow related to n3? what i would need is something like a advanced xsl to extract the information i need out of the rdf

13:23:22 <dajobe> that might be something like one of the 'rdfpath's or 4suite's versa

13:23:33 <dajobe> see above page for all about cwm

13:24:04 <aharth> i already played with cwm but it's ehm quite complicated (at least was a few months ago)

13:25:20 <dajobe> I can't think of an exact tool that does what you want, so there is just pointers to things that are flexible or close enough to get you started.

13:25:56 <aharth> sure, and i appreciate your help :)

13:31:26 <aharth> i thought there may exist a tool that i can give my rdf/rdfs files and say: get me all instances with the class xy and sort the according to y

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13:31:47 <aharth> maybe next year ;)

13:35:04 <dajobe> there probably are several but I'm thinking slow today

13:35:34 <dajobe> anything that does one of the RDF query languages maybe? RDQL or RQL

13:36:17 <dajobe> but those are generally for (java) programs; cwm, if you understand it, is something you can use immediately

13:36:22 <aharth> just read the rdfpath stuff, something like this would do it probably if already implemented

13:36:33 <dajobe> versa is implemented

13:36:38 <dajobe> and, um....

13:36:52 <aharth> i think rql is not powerful enough (or i don't understand it)

13:37:20 <dajobe> ok, I haven't used it

13:37:39 <dajobe> versa by example http://uche.ogbuji.net:8080/uche.ogbuji.net/tech/rdf/versa/versa-by-example.txt

13:37:47 <dajobe> (sadly lack of docs for versa)

13:38:54 <dajobe>http://uche.ogbuji.net:8080/uche.ogbuji.net/tech/rdf/versa/versa.doc?xslt=/ftss/data/docbook_html1.xslt

13:38:56 <dc_rdfig> A: http://uche.ogbuji.net:8080/uche.ogbuji.net/tech/rdf/versa/versa.doc?xslt=/ftss/data/docbook_html1.xslt from dajobe

13:39:09 <dajobe> A:|Versa documentation

13:39:09 <dc_rdfig> Titled item A.

13:40:55 <aharth> ok looks promising. need some time to sift through the documents though

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14:11:17 <squizz> squizz is now known as mattwhe

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15:08:10 <Squizza> Squizza is now known as jjh

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15:28:24 <aharth> dajobe: hey, this versa seems to work! many thanks for your help!

15:28:41 <dajobe> excellent

15:28:50 <dajobe> do tell Uche, he's a nice guy

15:29:08 <aharth> how? is he on irc too?

15:29:23 <dajobe> I meant by email

15:29:40 <aharth> ok, will do it right away, good idea

15:30:25 <icepick-away> icepick-away is now known as icepick

15:47:56 <dmiles_afk> dmiles_afk is now known as dmiles

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17:22:16 * danbri wonders if anyone here as an iPaq / Pocket PC

17:22:40 <danbri> ...and has managed to get calendar data in/out of the Outlook environment on it...

17:22:43 <danbri> hi dave

17:22:57 <dajobe> howdy

17:24:06 <dajobe> taking logger down for a bit to stop the freenode moans...

17:26:30 Topic now RDF/Semantic Web 24x7 chat - http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/ blog

17:26:30 Users on #rdfig: logger dajobe danbri GabeW mortenf dmiles mhgrove deusx larsbot JibberJim sbp icepick dc_rdfig xover Logan jordan TrustBot golbeck datum bediako kham- DanConn MarkB SeeTemp ericm tav|hiber deltab pixel Skyline _joshua thelsdj xower eikeon sandro grove

17:26:30 <ChanServ> [#rdfig] This channel is logged and blogged: http://logicerror.com/rdfIRCWelcome

17:30:01 <icepick> icepick is now known as icepick-away

17:38:14 <icepick-away> icepick-away is now known as icepick

17:51:59 * JibberJim has, but doesn't use the outlook environment.

18:01:33 <danb_lap> - r - d - f - - - c - a - l - e - n - d - a - r - i - n - g - - - c - h - a - t -

18:01:40 <libby> :)

18:02:07 <libby> thanks for coming everyone whose here for a calendaring chat

18:02:39 <libby> everyone else, the plan is to talke over the channel for an hour to talk about RDF and calendaring, as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-calendar/2002Dec/0023.html

18:02:51 <libby> ok, so not Jim then!

18:03:03 * danb_lap wonders who might be around...

18:03:31 <libby> DanConn said he was 'at risk' because travelling...

18:03:32 <danb_lap> DanC possibly travelling. TimBL's here. Also garyfreder, I think is a cal person...

18:03:42 <garyfreder> howdy

18:03:50 <danb_lap> hi there

18:03:52 <libby> hey gary

18:04:03 <garyfreder> good to 'see' ya

18:04:39 <garyfreder> are we waiting for people to show? I could say a bit about my interest (I'm shy but willing to say something :-) )

18:05:03 <tim-mit> is there a phone bridge, or just irc?

18:05:06 <danb_lap> I was about to ask you about http://groupware.openoffice.org/

18:05:12 <danb_lap> Just irc, was the plan...

18:05:16 <tim-mit> ok

18:05:56 <garyfreder> Glad you asked about OpenOffice.org Groupware :-)

18:06:03 <libby> I'd be keen to here Gary's ointerests

18:06:11 <libby>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-calendar/2002Dec/0023.html

18:06:12 <dc_rdfig> B: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-calendar/2002Dec/0023.html from libby

18:06:14 <garyfreder> If I can dominate the converstation for a bit...

18:06:34 <danb_lap> Shall we assemble an agenda summary in the channel first? Or I guess Go with Libby's msg as agenda, collect other topics here?

18:06:40 <libby> B:|message to rdf-calendar re this meeting. including a proto-agenda towards the end

18:06:40 <dc_rdfig> Titled item B.

18:06:55 <danb_lap> Gary, go for it! :)

18:07:15 <danb_lap>http://groupware.openoffice.org/

18:07:15 <dc_rdfig> C: http://groupware.openoffice.org/ from danb_lap

18:07:27 <danb_lap> C:|OpenOffice.org Groupware

18:07:27 <dc_rdfig> Titled item C.

18:07:39 <garyfreder> I'll throw in a comment or two on Mozilla calendar also

18:07:54 <garyfreder> (any other Mozilla calendar types here?)

18:07:55 <tim-away> tim-away is now known as timbl

18:08:14 <Ol> Not from Mozilla calendar, but calendar guy

18:08:17 <danb_lap> great. I've been tracking moz calendar (and general moz rdf/xml stuff), but don't know the innards realy.

18:08:18 * Ol from Apple iCal team

18:08:29 <garyfreder> I'm the project lead for the OpenOffice.org Groupware (OOogw) project

18:08:31 * danb_lap waves to Ol

18:08:41 <danb_lap> intro time, perhaps?

18:08:52 <garyfreder> good idea :-)

18:09:36 <garyfreder> and then I'll talk a bit and then we can look at the other things on the agenda?

18:09:36 <danb_lap> I'm Dan Brickley, W3C RDFIG chair, occasional rdf cal hacker. Palm->iPaq migratee, and Mozilla sympathiser. http://www.w3.org/People/DanBri/ and http://rdfweb.org/people/danbri/

18:09:44 * danb_lap nods

18:10:36 <libby> I'm Libby Miller, University of Bristol RDF hacker, RDF IG calendar taskforce contact person.

18:10:58 <Ol> I'm Olivier Gutknecht, from the Apple iCal development team (mostly backend stuff)

18:11:41 <danb_lap> Gary, maybe if you get started telling us about OpenOffice, others can introduce themselves at same time...

18:11:45 <ericm> I'm Eric Miller, Semantic Web Activity Lead http://www.w3.org/People/EM and person with a vested interested in collaborative calendering systems :)

18:11:56 <danb_lap> hi eric!

18:12:01 * ericm waves, howdy!

18:12:21 <garyfreder> ok

18:12:44 <garyfreder> OOogw has no groupware software, people want email and calendar like the old StarOffice

18:12:57 <garyfreder> We plan to integrate what others do into OOo rather than reinvent the wheel

18:13:14 <garyfreder> and will write clients some day (when we have the time :-) )

18:13:28 <danb_lap> What've you found, by way of suitable opensource servers?

18:13:38 <garyfreder> We have looked at integrating the Mozilla calendar datasources into OOo

18:13:54 <garyfreder> (hang on on the open source server question)

18:14:35 <garyfreder> I would like to see OOo being able to read calendar data from Apple's stuff, from Evolution, from Microsoft, from Mozilla etc.

18:15:11 * DanC waves from hotel in Manchester

18:15:13 <garyfreder> I did a simple test where I took xCal from Mozilla and read it into OOo's Writer.

18:15:15 <danb_lap> hi Dan :)

18:15:19 <danb_lap> glad you could make it

18:15:20 <libby> hey DanC

18:15:20 <DanC> hi

18:15:28 <danb_lap> Gary's telling us about the Open Office work

18:15:41 * DanC is using nationwide toll-free dialup, wonders if there's a local number

18:15:56 <garyfreder> the current status woth OOogw (hi Dan) is that there is talk and not much action

18:16:17 <garyfreder> OOo and others are working on XML standards for stuff

18:16:52 <garyfreder> I would like to get xCal as the standard for calendar data and whatever this group comes up with to make the data 'smart'

18:16:59 <garyfreder> and...

18:17:31 <garyfreder> I did some xslt filters that are part of the Mozilla calendar - part of the import / export filters.

18:18:00 <libby> gary, xcal= http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-calsch-many-xcal-02.txt?

18:18:03 <garyfreder> they use the internal calendar data and create xCal. It would be eays :-) to add rdf

18:19:35 <libby> neat :)

18:19:35 <garyfreder> that's the xCal draft stuff - we are going slowly on that - and would probably speed up if someone was doing something with xCal and we needed to go faster

18:19:43 <libby>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-calsch-many-xcal-02.txt

18:19:44 <dc_rdfig> D: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-calsch-many-xcal-02.txt from libby

18:19:45 <garyfreder> so

18:20:01 <libby> D:|xcal internet draft

18:20:01 <dc_rdfig> Titled item D.

18:20:10 * timbl would like integration with >1 user, CVS etc to be on an agenda somewhere

18:20:13 <DanC> any chance of revising XCal so that it's RDF as well as XML?

18:20:18 <garyfreder> OOogw is talking and wants to use whatever

18:20:40 <garyfreder> I see xCal as just xml and come up with a RDF that uses it and does so much more

18:20:56 <danb_lap> Could someone remind me the status of XCal? Is it managed in an IETF WG? (calshed?) or an external proposal...

18:21:05 <garyfreder> xCal is the xml representation of iCal and I can't see how to add rdf

18:21:07 <DanC> agenda + ical->RDF: I'd like somebody to try to reproduce my results.

18:21:30 <garyfreder> good idea danc and should be 'easy' to get going

18:21:45 <DanC> can't see how to add rdf? there's an XSLT transformation from the current xcal to RDF; just change xcal to look like its output, rather than its input.

18:21:55 <garyfreder> xCal is still drafty - calsch (IETF group) is working on it

18:22:21 <DanC> calsch IETF WG accepted an XML representation as a chartered work item? really? I thought they were keeping that out of scope

18:22:27 <garyfreder> can't see how to add rdf to xCal which is the xml representation of iCalendar

18:22:51 <DanC> er... xCal is draft, right? i.e. changeable? so change it to be RDF as well as XML.

18:22:51 * timbl wonders whether there is an agenda on the web

18:22:58 <garyfreder> do like the idea a lot of changing / adding xCal and rdf to get more

18:23:16 <libby> D:"This Internet-Draft will expire on January 23, 2003"

18:23:16 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D1.

18:23:39 <garyfreder> xCal is an xml representation of iCalendar - perhaps I don't understand - and example???

18:23:43 * DanC checks for "XML" in http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/calsch-charter.html ; doesn't occur

18:23:59 <danb_lap> Gary, are there any links between the OpenOffice and Mozilla calendar work and the new Chandler effort? (rummaging for url as i type...)

18:24:22 <garyfreder> no - we have talked about it on OOogw. Just talk

18:24:30 <garyfreder> would love to see that happen

18:24:32 <ericm> chandler -> http://www.osafoundation.org/our_product_desc.htm

18:24:36 <DanC> garyfreder, mozilla calendar currently supports xCal, plus various XSLT transormations applied to xCal; are you familiar with that?

18:24:49 <garyfreder> sorta - I wrote it

18:25:03 <DanC> ok, well, one of those XSLT transformations produces XML that is also RDF.

18:25:13 * danb_lap grins

18:25:22 <danb_lap>http://www.osafoundation.org/feature_summary.htm

18:25:22 <dc_rdfig> E: http://www.osafoundation.org/feature_summary.htm from danb_lap

18:25:26 <DanC> I suggest using that RDF/XML representation as a revision of xcal.

18:25:29 <libby> timbl, no, tehre is no agenda as such, just notes that DanC suhggested at the end of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-calendar/2002Dec/0023.html

18:25:49 <danb_lap> E:|Open Source Applications Foundation (feature summary, including Calendar facilities)

18:25:50 <dc_rdfig> Titled item E.

18:26:07 <garyfreder> danc - I want the Mozilla Calendar to be rethought to use rdf (Mozilla's datasource)

18:26:37 <DanC> ah; well, that would be great.

18:26:48 <timbl> That would be cool! (Do these filters run when you ask for them in the GUI, or every time the calendar changes?)

18:27:00 <garyfreder> I will say something to the xCal folks about revising xCal to use rdf, but I don't thing they will say yes

18:27:04 <DanC> I got the impressiont that the mozilla calendar was an independent calendar application integrated into mozilla post-hoc. true?

18:27:11 <garyfreder> they are import/export filters

18:27:14 <DanC> who are the xCal folks?

18:27:37 <garyfreder> some folks from calsch working on an xCal doc

18:27:46 <Ol> a subset of the calsch wg I think

18:27:46 <DanC> e.g.?

18:28:35 <DanC> it's also possible to just write up this RDF/XML representation of ical and submit it to the WG, as a peer of xCal.

18:28:48 <garyfreder> danc - good idea

18:28:51 <Ol> xCal is planned to be just an alternative representation for RFC-2445 data, without any change in the semantics

18:28:54 <DanC> meanwhile, it's still not clear to me that XML representations are a chartered work item of the calsched WG.

18:29:09 <_joshua> hoo boy

18:29:14 <garyfreder> Majordomo@INET-Consulting.com Subject: subscribe xcal-dev

18:29:38 <DanC> yes, the RDF representation I/we have been working on is also just an alternative represenatation with no change in semantics. by design/definition/agreement.

18:29:47 <Ol> motivation was apparently that IETF would only accept xCal at the condition it would not fork in any way with RFC-2445

18:29:53 <garyfreder> i think it is chartered - I'll ask the co-chairs to clarify

18:30:06 <garyfreder> Ol probably

18:30:53 * DanC checks mozilla installation to see if it's got the calendar component... nope

18:31:09 <garyfreder> you have to install calendar

18:31:18 <danb_lap> Well, we don't have a worked out alternative yet, so probably better focussing on that than worrying about calshed folk exceeding their charter.

18:31:25 <DanC> anybody got mozilla calendar running? let's put an xCal example in our 2002/12/cal/test/ repository, along with its transformation to RDF.

18:31:29 <garyfreder> it will be part of the regular build soon (how soon .... well)

18:31:34 <DanC> we don't, danbri?

18:31:44 <danb_lap> part-baked...

18:31:55 <DanC> everything is part-baked.

18:32:40 * danb_lap not sure if I have a moz calendar running currently; I might've upgraded mozilla and broken it.

18:32:50 <libby> so one thing you suggeste DanC was that we need writeups of various things - e.g. how to use Gary's filters with Mozilla calendar maybe?

18:32:54 <garyfreder> http://www.mozilla.org/projects/calendar/ and follow to where you install

18:32:55 <dc_rdfig> F: http://www.mozilla.org/projects/calendar/ from garyfreder

18:33:20 <DanC> yes, that would be handy, libby. any takers?

18:33:23 * danb_lap checks his installation

18:33:28 <garyfreder> I'll send a copy to DanC? - can not right now

18:33:35 <DanC> copy of what?

18:33:38 <libby> maybe already a writeup somewhere

18:34:07 <danb_lap> OK, I have calendar installed

18:34:13 <DanC> please don't put me in the critical path for anything, garyfreder. Anything you send to me, copy to www-rdf-calendar@w3.org, or at least to libby and www-archive@w3.org

18:34:19 <garyfreder> ok

18:34:26 <libby> one thing I was wondering is whethe we can get iCalendar data from apps which has things like organisers and attendees in it

18:34:46 * libby embarrassed to say not tried apple ical or moz cal yet

18:34:46 <DanC> er... of course we can, libby. just fire up evolution and go for it.

18:34:46 <garyfreder> and the same applies - I have not been able to do what I wanted with calendar stuff for a while :-(

18:34:59 <garyfreder> or Mozilla

18:35:28 <garyfreder> or Apple iCal?

18:35:35 <DanC> danbri, pls load http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/test/mtg.ics into mozilla calendar and save it as xCal and check it in?

18:35:37 <Ol> Yes, Apple iCal too

18:35:39 <danb_lap> While we have both Gary and Ol here, I'm curious as to folks experience with interop between iCalendar apps. Has there been much experience with getting data into Moz from Apple calendars and vice-versa?

18:35:50 <danb_lap> (loading...)

18:36:10 <Ol> it basically works for simple cases

18:36:29 <garyfreder> I have not done a lot of interop testing

18:36:39 <garyfreder> and my stuff always works for me :-)

18:36:42 * DanC asserts write-lock on 2002/12/cal/HEADER.html at v 1.6 2003/01/08 01:00:12 for a few minutes

18:36:46 <Ol> Problem areas are things like timezones, all-day events, attendee support

18:36:48 <danb_lap> is there perhaps an implicit subset of icalendar that people are drifting towards? or does everyone have different subsets...?

18:36:51 * danb_lap nods

18:37:17 <DanC> ok, right now, pls make test data for timezones, all-day events, attendee support, Somebody.

18:37:33 <Ol> Either because of implementation problems (relying on non standard properties in some clients), or complexity of RFC-2445 (recurrences, detached events, ...)

18:38:04 <libby> Ol, gary, do you ever output events as recurring events in icalendar format?

18:38:24 <timbl> I have mozilla calendar running. (I actually use iCal normally) I'm impressed by the export option - I had certianly missed it!

18:38:30 <danb_lap> Ol, we want to represent calendar data in RDF so we can freely mix it with other related facts (person info, document info, geo info etc.); so hearing more about which parts of icalendar have proved practical vs problematic is very interesting.

18:38:31 <icepick> icepick is now known as icepick-away

18:38:33 <Ol> Yes, we do

18:39:07 * Ol is building some sample data

18:39:10 <libby> cool, that'll be a useful source for testing...

18:39:12 <libby> :)

18:39:17 <garyfreder> no - only one time events

18:39:34 <icepick-away> icepick-away is now known as icepick

18:39:50 <libby> gary, so if you have a recurring event would it export as a series of one-time events?

18:39:58 <libby> what about import?

18:40:22 <garyfreder> My use is a special case - we use it to list events for an events calendar

18:40:42 <garyfreder> and handle multiple day events poorly

18:41:03 <garyfreder> we will do it according to iCalendar's various standards some day

18:41:36 <garyfreder> I have a comment / question that may help to show my 'opinion'

18:41:51 <libby> go on

18:42:10 <garyfreder> libby posted an rss+event example

18:42:14 <garyfreder> here is a fragment

18:42:25 <garyfreder> <dc:date>2002-09-24</dc:date>

18:42:27 <garyfreder> <ev:startdate>2003-01-21</ev:startdate>

18:42:28 <garyfreder> <ev:enddate>2003-01-21</ev:enddate>

18:42:30 <garyfreder> <ev:location>ILRT</ev:location>

18:42:38 <garyfreder> <dc:date> is from dc

18:43:09 <garyfreder> the three <ev:startdate> could also be <xcal:startdate> ...

18:43:12 <DanC> odd; calendar workshop isn't linked from http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/ ; is that on purpose?

18:43:24 <garyfreder> and conform to the xcal/iCalendar stuff

18:43:26 <libby> yep gary

18:43:31 <garyfreder> that would make me happy

18:43:33 <danb_lap> OK, http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/test/mtg.ics loaded fine. Rather nice to be able to do this... I've saved an xcal, checking it in now.

18:43:36 <garyfreder> and is what should be

18:43:46 <libby> danC: we have an events page /events/

18:44:05 <ericm> danc, its also link on http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/ under news

18:44:07 <danb_lap> (might be worth adding it to the homepage, yeah)

18:44:09 <garyfreder> then if someone has calendar data in rdf, they can use 'strict' iCalendar/xCal or some other

18:44:16 <garyfreder> and all are happy

18:44:40 <garyfreder> so I think we need to keep moving forward with rdf calendar stuff

18:44:57 <garyfreder> and know/use the ietf iCalendar/xCal where it fits

18:45:00 <libby> so gary, how would that work? you mean put xcal in an rss module ?

18:45:03 <garyfreder> ok?

18:45:15 <garyfreder> libby I think so

18:45:38 * timbl notes it is a pain to have to select the events to export, esp when the select all doesn't work. Auto-export o fthe whole calendar on change would be a great!

18:45:38 <Ol> an example with attendee and recurrence: http://people.no-distance.net/ol/cal/rec-and-attendee.ics

18:45:41 <garyfreder> that's where I have to hand wave - I have not done enough rdf to be comfortable

18:46:12 <libby> I'll have a think about it....it could be both maybe. or you could have stylesheets that go from xcal to RDF whether in rss or not

18:46:19 <garyfreder> libby - rss module?

18:46:31 <libby> thanks Ol, that's great :)

18:46:41 <libby> as in, what is one?

18:46:51 <danb_lap> Ol, thanks!

18:47:18 <garyfreder> as in - say a bit more

18:47:54 <libby> ok, the neat thing about RSS 1.0 is that you can add bits in, and these are 'modules'

18:48:43 <libby> so RSS starts off being basically a list of links with titles and descripytions,but then you can add more info in from different namespaces iof you're describing different things. like conferences

18:49:29 <libby> these modules are RDF snippets, and they can be as complex or simle as your like, e.g. the evnts opme is extremely simple, just a buncg of properties, so it looks a lot like 'vanilla' XML

18:49:47 <libby> but you could have a subset of RDF icalendar in for example

18:50:05 * ericm can't seem to get ical2rdf.pl working on rec-and-attendee.ics

18:50:33 <libby> there's a few problems with this approach: it's not clear whether RSS+events module has links which point to the events (magically, somehow), or descriptions of them

18:50:34 * DanC wonders if evolution runs on windows

18:50:39 <timbl> Ol, what is the RDF awareness in apple like in general? Plans foir iCal? iTunes? plists in general? There seems to be more and more fodder for upgrade to RDF. plists are really close.... just need namespaces ...

18:51:30 <libby> iCalendar recuurence rules are very complex I think

18:52:10 <Ol> No idea for RDF within the compony in general, for iCal, everything is just investigation at this point

18:52:31 <Ol> libby: yes, recurrence rules from RFC-2445 are extremely complex

18:52:47 <timbl> There seems to be a general enthusiasm for using open hackable XML formats throughout OSX.

18:53:17 <garyfreder> I have not done anything with the idea, but I like the 'feel' that I can use xCal to describe events and RDF for recurrence - I think that would work and we could have more info than just iCal

18:53:35 <timbl> I started to hack some recurrence rules into N3 rules, but didn't get far.

18:53:40 <danb_lap> Ol, one interesting thing that I liked about Apple's iCal is that it seems to have motivated a lot of people to publish events in the Web, eg. http://www.icalshare.com/

18:54:05 <Ol> libby: and recurrence rule is one thing, but you can have multiple rec rules, exception rules, exception or special ocurrence dates, detached events, etc.

18:54:39 <libby> right, yeah, yeuch

18:55:11 <danb_lap> ...I'm wondering if there is much interest in using XML, RDF etc. to improve the discoverability, classification etc of such calendars. At the moment people seem to drop .ics files onto www sites, with no general method for finding them

18:55:31 <DanC> gee, making them available by HTTP is a pretty general method, danbri.

18:55:38 <Ol> danb: yes, that was a happy surprise to see this feature so popular

18:56:12 <danb_lap> Oh, I didn't mean to discourage http publication. That's fantastic. I meant just that the .ical docs on there own are only part of the puzzle.

18:56:19 <timbl> iCal's ability to overlay calendars is very nice. I have a few authormatically generated calendars generated from RDF, and can overlay them when necessaey. I expect the publciatoin of calendars to really take off - folks will demand that their orgs given them what's coming in iCal.

18:56:26 <DanC> libby, "We are holding meetings regularly" ... that might be overstating the case a bit, no?

18:56:34 <libby> could you just harvest them like pixel's google filter?

18:56:46 <libby> depends how you define regular....

18:56:52 <libby> change it if you like

18:56:54 <danb_lap> Eg. if I'm looking for opening hours of shops in my street, they might well have .ical files on their homepages

18:57:06 * danb_lap nods re google, harvesting

18:57:22 <libby> that doesnt help with classification though

18:58:15 <timbl> Also I thing there is a great untapped potential in inter-application stuff - I should have a calendar of the photos I've taken, the tunes I was listening to at a given time, etc etc.

18:58:17 <danb_lap> No, but once there's some basic discoverability conventions, so harvesters amass a big pile of calendars, folk will be more motivated to distinguish between them.

18:58:37 <libby> ooh, a calendar of photos!

18:58:40 <Ol> yes, that's what we're seing guys starting to build things like sherlock channels to search for calendars

18:58:56 <timbl> Ol, does anyone have a standard icon to represent a link to an ics calendar? Might be something to encourage, for humans and google...

18:58:56 <danb_lap> Ol, that's very interesting! Do you have any pointers?

18:59:27 <Ol> tim: not to my knowledge

18:59:45 <danb_lap> Mozilla also uses Sherlock's service-description format, fwiw.

18:59:50 <garyfreder> what would a calendar of the photos be?

18:59:55 <Ol> danb: www.icalshare.com, the sherlock thing is listed on the main page

19:00:04 <danb_lap> ta

19:00:24 <timbl> Oh while you are here, Ol, (I have 100 user comment on iCal if you like ;-) but why does apple use "webcal:" instead of "http:"?

19:00:46 <danb_lap> or sherlock:// for that mattter... sherlock://icalshare.com/sherlock/channel.xml?action=add

19:02:17 <libby> calendar of photos. maybe taking photos is an event. or taking a photo of an event. neat

19:02:36 <Ol> tim: basically, just a way to fire the app and be able to subscribe to the calendaring data (and not actually just downloading the calendar content)

19:03:03 <timbl> libby, Yes .. I should be able to classify any photos I took while at an event under the event, when building a scrapbook.

19:03:24 <timbl> Ol, In general it is very expensive to make a new URI scheme. A last resort.

19:03:43 <libby> I always think about photos of people at an event, rather than photos of an event, but be very cool to ahve both

19:04:31 <timbl> I don't see why you don't want to download the calendar. It would be better touse httP; and then fire the app from the mime type, no?

19:04:32 <sandro> DanC, cwm --check kindamostly works now. I'm having trouble finding matching axioms & test cases. Also, I haven't integrated with Tim's changes to cwm since Oct3.

19:05:09 <danb_lap> yes, the former makes more sense to me. And more readily hooked up to traditional calendar data: you could ask an RDFdb for photos depicting happenings at some event that was previously scheduled for some timeslot.

19:05:28 <libby> our hour is up...I have to go offline shortly

19:05:54 <garyfreder> Uhhh - do we have anything on the 'agenda' we should cover???

19:06:06 <libby> do people have time to think of some agenda items for next time? maybe set a date/time?

19:06:25 * DanC commits r1.7 of http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/ ; requests review/feedback

19:06:28 <danb_lap> I suspect many of us were on vacation for a lot of the time between this meeting and previous one. I hope to have more progress to report next time.

19:06:28 <garyfreder> I like the idea of another date/time with agenda

19:06:51 <libby> of course it sort of depends who turns up - it's been v cool having gary and ol here today

19:07:14 <danb_lap> yup, I think we've enough critical mass of people interested to make it worth being more structured.

19:07:15 * timbl hopes he didn't frighten Ol off

19:07:28 <garyfreder> (blush) I had a great time

19:07:30 <Ol> no, just a irc client crash :-)

19:07:42 <DanC> timecheck? how much longer do folks intend to be around? I can stay for a bit. have you discussed next meeting?

19:07:57 <libby> well, is a week today too soon?

19:08:10 <danb_lap> For next time, I'll report on efforts to get iCal out of my new iPaq/outlook setup and into Moz, Apple and RDF tools.

19:08:11 <libby> no, we were just wonderign about that DanC

19:08:41 * DanC likes the idea of a week from today; checks availability...

19:09:01 <danb_lap> I could do next week

19:09:04 <garyfreder> I'm going to have some info on what the calsch group is doing and if nobody else does - a bit of info on Moz cal

19:09:12 <libby> I want to try getting out data from iCal and Moz cal: feel very slack not having done it already

19:09:14 <danb_lap> sounds great

19:09:17 <libby> great gary

19:09:34 <garyfreder> any time is bad for me :-)

19:09:43 <danb_lap> I got data out, but failed to check it into w3.org just now 'cos I messed up my CVS setup.

19:10:00 <libby> ooh, maybe we could ahve a recurring ics file for these meetings ;)

19:10:14 <timbl> I am running my life on data Amy makes with Moz and I read with iCal, btw.

19:10:58 <danb_lap> timbl, do you still use outlook? any clues on getting data out of it? (or in?) I tried Retsina but the installation fails silently.

19:10:58 * libby wonders if things like shop opening hours aren't as tricky to parse as the general icalendar recurrence rules

19:11:14 <timbl> I am kinda rather surprised by the lack of test databases for iCalendar. Building an RDF description of them like the RDF test datasets would be of course very useful - along with the RDF they should be equivalent to.

19:11:33 <DanC> PROPOSED: to meet again Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 6:00:00 PM UTC time. http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?day=15&month=1&year=2003&hour=18&min=0&sec=0&p1=0

19:11:33 <dc_rdfig> Label PROPOSED not found.

19:11:42 <danb_lap> 2nd'd

19:11:53 <DanC> an agenda has been requested; that calls for a chair. I don't volunteer, but I'm willing to attend an unchaired meeting.

19:12:16 <garyfreder> the calsch group has had several suggestons that there be a test iCal db. Perhaps if ther is an RDF one, that would be motovation !!!

19:12:18 <timbl> danb, I did have a python prog originally by DanC to get eth data out. but it used a Python-Wondows connection which was a bit brittle - I think it broke when I upgraded python to 2.2

19:12:20 <DanC> that's noon Chicago time, 1pET.

19:12:44 <garyfreder> that's noon Houston time also :-)

19:12:46 <libby> testdb - yeah, especially if it's convertable right back to icalendar

19:12:48 <timbl> It's called "lookout" and its in http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/pim somewhere.

19:12:52 * DanC would like to hear a few more in favor of 1800Z on 15Jan

19:13:08 <garyfreder> ok by me - but my plans can change

19:13:11 <danb_lap> I'm willing to hang out here and chat informally about calendars, or attend something more agenda-based...

19:13:12 <libby> sounds good to me

19:13:13 * timbl is free then

19:13:23 <Ol> 20030115T18000Z is ok for me

19:13:29 <garyfreder> I will post to Mozilla and OOo lists about next week

19:13:41 <DanC> libby, will you 1800Z on 15Jan to www-rdf-calendar, please?

19:13:54 <libby> well we've got a rough set of things people have offered to do - I could send that round

19:13:56 <timbl> gary, why does Moz save each event as a separate VCALENDAR?

19:13:57 <libby> sure

19:14:07 <garyfreder> history

19:14:12 <DanC> then we are RESOLVED, to my satisfaction.

19:14:19 <libby> great!

19:14:27 <garyfreder> the folks at OEOne were getting the calendar to work as they were learning about iCal

19:14:46 <ericm> next week works for me as well...

19:14:49 <garyfreder> they learned that you can have more than one event after they were well along :-)

19:14:56 <libby> great ericm

19:15:19 <timbl> Two bugs which needed to be fixed in the path of Moz to iCal: One that Moz outputs N calendars for N events, and ical only reads the first; second, that iCal couldn't handle the linebreak in the weird (though valid) place Moz puts it.

19:15:37 <timbl> That's one bug fix for gary and one for ol by my reckoning ;-)

19:15:45 * danb_lap grins

19:15:48 <Ol> sounds fair :)

19:15:55 <libby> heh

19:16:13 <garyfreder> now to fire up bugzilla :-)

19:16:18 * DanC would like to hold somebody's hand thru the .ical->RDF conversion process

19:16:20 <timbl> they are even on both taking gobs of CPU time too ;-)

19:16:32 * DanC takes a bio break...

19:16:44 <Ol> Uh, even since 1.0.2 ? :)

19:17:05 <timbl> Seems better, but I had to quit it today to save my CPU.

19:17:20 * garyfreder would like to have the time to have DanC hold my hand on .iCal -> RDF but he is busy :-)

19:17:39 <timbl> My cwm program used to be the only think which turned the powerbook fan on, but ical was the second. :-)

19:18:05 * Ol will try to experiment with the ical2rdf script

19:19:17 <danb_lap> Ol, are there any detailed developer pages where we can nose around docs for iCal?

19:19:23 * danb_lap guesses he shouldve asked google first

19:19:39 <Ol> danb: you mean iCal-the-app ?

19:20:14 <danb_lap> yes, sorry, iCal Ical(endar)

19:20:22 <Ol> I don't think there's anything specific yet, I'll check that

19:21:26 <Ol> there's a short introduction to icalendar(-the-spec) on http://developer.apple.com/internet/macosx/icalendarfiles.html but I don't think that really cover the app

19:22:49 <danb_lap>http://developer.apple.com/internet/macosx/icalendarfiles.html

19:22:49 <dc_rdfig> G: http://developer.apple.com/internet/macosx/icalendarfiles.html from danb_lap

19:23:03 <danb_lap> G:|iCalendar Files on Mac OS X

19:23:03 <dc_rdfig> Titled item G.

19:23:52 <DanC> did anybody look at http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/ v1.7?

19:23:55 <danb_lap> G:"In this article, I'll go over some options for publishing your iCal data through outside services. I'll then show you how you can start working with code that will let you display your calendars on your own OS X server. I'll start with the basics of the iCalendar file format, introduce you to some ways of dealing with iCal files in Perl and PHP, and finally demonstrate a PHP-based WML calendar viewer for cellular phones and o

19:23:55 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G1.

19:24:52 * DanC supposed more links to the chump/weblogs of the meetings are in order

19:25:34 <danb_lap> thanks for the link Ol. BTW wondering if you know what we're doing when we type G:<etc> into the channel, for the dc_rdfig bot. See http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/ for the generated output...

19:26:00 <Ol> ok, thanks

19:26:12 * danb_lap just looked, you've been busy :)

19:26:21 <danb_lap> (to DanC)

19:29:08 <danb_lap> I think we're all drifting/drifted away. Thanks everyone for coming! Don't forget the mailing list in-between times...

19:29:09 <danb_lap> cheers

19:29:33 <libby> yeah thanks everyone - this was v cool

19:29:48 <libby> bye

19:29:57 <Ol> cheers

19:30:09 <timbl> DanC, there is alkso a rdftoical thing, isn'tthere? Yes, I use it. That is in soemways even more interesting, to get your old data to show up inyour new iCal app.

19:30:38 <timbl> No link to it from http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/

19:30:54 <timbl> KUTWG everybody!

19:31:04 <mdupont> hello

19:31:34 * danb_lap tries to figure out Outlook, runs into problem that his installation is in French, which his brain isn't :)

19:32:01 <danb_lap> (my iPaq arrived with French installation, which I'm leaving on there to force me to relearn the language)

19:33:18 <DanC> rdftoical hasn't been updated to the new schema, but yes, I'll add a link.

19:46:01 * DanC browses icalshare...

19:46:18 <DanC> wow... all that related metadata not captured in the .ics file: source, submitted by, etc.

19:49:14 * DanC tries some data from icalshare... webcal://ical.mac.com/ical/Chiefs.ics aka http://ical.mac.com/ical/Chiefs.ics

19:52:33 <DanC> METHOD:PUBLISH ???

19:52:33 <dc_rdfig> Label METHOD not found.

19:52:34 <DanC> hmm...

20:13:21 * sandro uses mace to find a model for DanC's owl axioms (minus three ugly rules).

20:13:43 <DanC> hmm... I wonder if those axioms are anywhere near current

20:14:18 <sandro> They look rather dubious to me. (but that doesn't really affect my work.)

20:14:48 <DanC> ??

20:15:25 <DanC> I was kinda hoping that if you get a few tests working, you could try running them all.

20:15:29 <sandro> er, my work so far. which has been on making cwm wrap otter doing RTP on n3 formulas.

20:15:54 <DanC> hmm... perhaps time to drop the emphasis on interpreting N3 axioms. OK by me if you just write the OWL axioms in otter syntax.

20:16:39 <DanC> what's important to me now is (a) reading OWL tests in their RDF/XML syntax, and (b) finding proofs or whatever with otter

20:16:54 <DanC> another option: pick up jos's axioms.

20:16:55 <sandro> At this point n3 & otter syntax are the same to me (ie n3 -> otter conversion is in good shape).

20:16:56 <sandro> Ah well.

20:17:29 <sandro> So what's the state of WebOnt's efforts to produce an axiomatization? Fikes/McGuiness had that action item, right?

20:18:03 <DanC> no; Fikes/McGuiness were talking about it, but not so much in WG meetings. There's no action item.

20:18:44 <sandro> Ah, I thought Deb told me they were committed.

20:19:06 <sandro> No one in the WG has that task?

20:19:31 <DanC> no, I don't think so.

20:23:16 <sandro> Here http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2003Jan/0019 is the converted-to-otter form of your axioms. How do they look to you?

20:24:22 <DanC> oops; looking...

20:25:14 <DanC> at a glance, they look right.

20:25:34 <sandro> that's good. want to pick a test case?

20:34:01 * DanC was reading other stuff...

20:34:48 <DanC> gee... I'm surprised jeremy/jos haven't touched the stuff atop http://www.w3.org/2002/03owlt/

20:35:28 <DanC> crap; forbidden at http://www.w3.org/2002/03owlt/I5.3/ ; I was supposed to fix those.

20:36:11 * DanC hates the highly constrained filenames like conclusion001 ; makes nagivating hard

20:36:55 <DanC> hmm... where's the editor's version of the test cases?

20:37:06 <DanC> sigh... all this stuff should have been cleaned up a week or two before the ftf.

20:37:14 <DanC> who's staff contact for this WG anyway? ;-)

20:38:09 <sandro> :)

20:38:25 <DanC> ah; here's a tasty bit to try otter on: "4: Some OWL Full tests may be desired in the recommendation which are not

20:38:26 <DanC> implemented, and perhaps never will"

20:38:33 <DanC> -- jjc to webont http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Jan/0136.html

20:39:03 <DanC> argh! no example of such!

20:40:31 * DanC loads http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2002Dec/att-0091/01-main.jsp.html over a modem link...

20:41:26 <DanC> how about the stateCode test, sandro? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2002Dec/att-0091/01-main.jsp.html#proposedRDFXMLIssue-I5.1-Uniform-treatment-of-literal-data-values

20:41:46 <DanC> argh; no pointer from D.2.4 to the relevant files

20:46:29 <sandro> Are the nodeIDs part of the test? That's.... weird.

20:47:23 <DanC> umm... what's wierd about it?

20:48:00 <DanC> I think they can be ignored in this case.

20:48:09 <DanC> i.e. the formula is the same with or without them.

20:49:07 <sandro> What's weird is thinking about whether A0 in one file is supposed to be the same as A0 in the other file. No if they are files, but these are 'test cases' not files. Will ignore.

20:49:40 <DanC> ah; no, A0 isn't the same varaible in the premise and the conclusion.

20:58:43 <sethl> is (current cvs) cwm's handling of bNodes kosher? does anyone use it to convert N3 to RDF/XML?

20:59:47 <sandro> kosher? maybe. use it? yes.

21:01:33 * DanC wanders off

21:01:37 <sandro> how to negate the conclusion.......

21:02:33 <sethl> cwm creates log:forSome nodes in the RDF/XML graph resulting from a N3 file... is there a way to disable that? only shows up w/ bNodes in the N3

21:04:01 <sandro> I think cwm only does that when it can't use a bNode in RDF/XML because the topology is wrong. Now with nodeID it could do better, but it hasn't been changed.

21:05:00 <sethl> do people maintain cwm still? is this something I could except be changed?

21:06:23 <sandro> cwm is maintained, but it is experimental, not production. So nodeIDs will be added when we have some interesting experiment for which we need them. (very roughly speaking; it's not that formal.)

21:06:49 <sandro> Of course patches are welcome. :-)

21:06:52 <sethl> roger that... thanks!

21:07:05 <sethl> it would be a good excuse to learn python

21:09:55 <DanC> ooh... geourl got slashdotted...

21:11:39 <DanC> hmm... I hope the geourl stuff has folks put the location metadata in their own pages, so that google or anybody else could slurp it up too...

21:11:55 <DanC> yup. <meta name="ICBM" content="COORDINATES">

21:12:14 <DanC> hmm... I could add those to WG ftf pages

21:12:18 <DanC> and W3C workshop pages

21:12:46 <DanC> odd... why <meta name="DC.title" ? why not just the HTML <title> tag?

21:14:04 <sandro> otter seems to prove D.2.4. (but I'm having trouble making sense of the proof:

21:14:14 <sandro> 1 [] -rdf(A,ns5_population,'<md5:749b0f41b1f91012db8edab830aacdba>')| -rdf(A,ns5_stateBird,ns5_WesternMeadowlark)| -rdf(A,rdf_nodeID,'<md5:d88c146dfafdea37a837778a92415bc2>').

21:14:14 <sandro> 93 [] rdf(s,rdf_nodeID,'<md5:d88c146dfafdea37a837778a92415bc2>').

21:14:14 <sandro> 95 [] rdf(s,ns5_population,'<md5:749b0f41b1f91012db8edab830aacdba>').

21:14:14 <sandro> 98 [] rdf(s,ns5_stateBird,ns5_WesternMeadowlark).

21:14:14 <sandro> 128 [hyper,98,1,95,93] $F.

21:14:38 <sethl> what is otter?

21:14:48 <sandro> google will tell you. :-)

21:14:55 <DanC> .google otter

21:14:57 <datum> otter: http://www.mcs.anl.gov/AR/otter/

21:15:09 <sandro> corrrrrect.

21:15:55 <DanC> odd... rdf_nodeID isn't a property.

21:16:20 <sandro> As far as cwm's parser knows, I bet it is.

21:16:25 <DanC> true

21:16:39 <sethl> yup... just tried it (sucking in rdf/xml w/ a rdf:nodeID)

21:17:06 <DanC> E.2.4 has the test case in N3, btw, sandro.

21:17:17 <DanC> I don't get the proof either, sandro

21:18:32 <DanC> I need to see the justification for lines 95 and 98

21:18:46 <sandro> they are givens

21:18:54 <DanC> huh?

21:18:58 <sandro> ugh -- I have to run out for a couple hours. sigh.

21:19:02 <sandro> bye!

21:19:07 <DanC> ok. so do i. ciao.

21:43:53 <mdupont> mdupont is now known as i

21:44:05 <i> i is now known as mdupont-zzzz

21:52:20 <_joshua> DanC, It uses DC.title because people put all sorts of crap in their <title> - if you leave out DC.title it falls back to <title>

21:53:02 <_joshua> I dodn't do it.

22:05:25 <icepick> icepick is now known as icepick-away

22:22:05 <_joshua> damn you w3c slackers

22:32:15 <icepick-away> icepick-away is now known as icepick

22:57:52 <icepick> icepick is now known as icepick-away