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Semantic Web Interest Group Logs > 2003 > 2003-01 > 2003-01-15 (Latest) (Search)
00:26:09 <mdupont> mdupont is now known as mdupont-ZZZZ
06:20:24 <eikeon> Wow... <20 where did everyone go ;)
09:42:00 <aharth> hello
10:49:39 <mdupont___> hey all
10:50:05 <mdupont___>http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/
10:50:05 <dc_rdfig> A: http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/ from mdupont___
10:50:22 <mdupont___> A:|The chatlogs of RDFIG
10:50:22 <dc_rdfig> Titled item A.
10:50:38 <mdupont___> A:give me the message Your site is sending far too many requests to the chatlogs area with a client request of the name'Fetch API Request' and creating a huge server load. This page will be returned by all such requests from now on.
10:50:38 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A1.
10:51:35 <dajobe> hee hee
10:51:45 <dajobe> well, don't do that
10:51:52 <mdupont___> hey dajobe. its all your fault :)
10:51:56 <dajobe> no, you
10:51:59 <dajobe> our server is ancient
10:52:01 <mdupont___> me?
10:52:28 <mdupont___> can you tell me where i can get this infomation from the chatlogs :
10:52:43 <dajobe> use a better robot
10:52:46 <mdupont___> === mdupont___ <~chatzilla@pat.wcom.co.uk> ``New Now Know How''
10:52:52 <dajobe> fetch api was really sucky
10:53:11 <mdupont___> this tells me the name of the server that is serving my connection.
10:53:49 <mdupont___> is that stored in the log file somewhere? the ip of the conneciton?
10:54:01 <dajobe> no
10:54:08 <dajobe> I took it out for privacy reasons
10:54:13 <dajobe> people were getting spam
10:54:48 <mdupont___> hmm
10:55:06 <mdupont___> becuase there is not any way to connect the aliases used by many people
10:55:08 <mdupont___> to one.
10:55:21 <mdupont___> if we could get the ip address, or at least the server
10:55:52 <mdupont___> then we could differenciate between all the names, and at least show what users log on from the same server
10:56:04 <dajobe> sorry, that's all there is; at least for the existing logs
10:57:23 <mdupont___> ok
10:57:45 <dajobe> you could try something with the nickserv bot, but not everyone uses it, and that might annoy the freenode admins
10:58:36 <mdupont___> well
10:58:51 <mdupont___> i will just ask people to create a list of aliases that they used
10:58:55 <mdupont___> if they want
10:59:06 <dajobe> i've got one of those
10:59:07 <JibberJim> the foaf universe already contains such data...
10:59:11 <dajobe> but also private, for privacy reasons
10:59:12 <dajobe> indeed
10:59:16 <mdupont___> then we can start creating a link from the foaf to the web
10:59:17 <dajobe> self-declared info is better
10:59:21 <mdupont___> if they want to
10:59:45 <JibberJim> - http://jibbering.com/foaf/whois.1?nick=JibberJim
11:01:55 <mdupont___> thats cool!
11:02:09 <mdupont___> i am reposting my rdf dump results to the rdfig mailling list
11:02:27 <dajobe> "Who is undefined"?
11:03:16 * dajobe returns to do real work
11:03:21 <JibberJim> yeah... I added nick but didn't change the display from when it only did name...
11:06:53 <mdupont___> well, if you have a way to handle this
11:06:54 <mdupont___> ...
11:06:56 <mdupont___> anyway
11:06:58 <mdupont___> gotta run
14:21:38 <akuchlin> Hi, eikeon; I'm back at my desk.
15:53:25 <DanCon> BLURB: year views of calendars
15:53:26 <dc_rdfig> B: year views of calendars from DanCon
15:53:35 <DanCon> B: an agenda request for the calendaring chat
15:53:35 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B1.
15:53:43 <DanCon> B: I really miss the psion year view
15:53:44 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B2.
15:53:52 <libby> oh hello DanCon
15:55:15 <LotR> I thought it didn't start till 6pm? :)
15:56:06 * libby wonders if she should chump other agenda items
15:56:54 <DanCon> the scheduled time is not for a few hours, but I can queue agenda requests, no?
15:57:02 <JibberJim> Is there any background reading on it?
15:57:10 <JibberJim> it=rdf calendaring
15:57:26 <DanCon>http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/
15:57:26 <dc_rdfig> C: http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/ from DanCon
15:57:34 <DanCon> C:|RDF Calendar Workspace
15:57:34 <dc_rdfig> Titled item C.
15:58:11 <libby> B:Benjamin Sontaag is coming along and can talk about OpenCap, and open source calendaring project he's been working on
15:58:11 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B3.
15:58:25 <DanCon> C:at 1800Z today, we'll be chatting about it. see [http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-calendar/2003Jan/0011.html|invitation]
15:58:26 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C1.
15:59:01 <DanCon> phpht. the weblog is obviously missing from the "nearby" list...
15:59:14 * JibberJim struggles to get over the ugliness of the date syntax parts.
15:59:30 <libby> B:Gary Frederick has offered to talk about xcal, mozilla and getting iCal or rdf-cal? in/out of Mozilla
15:59:31 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B4.
15:59:38 <_joshua> what ever happend to reefknot
16:00:00 <_joshua> i guess it's dead.... http://reefknot.sourceforge.net/
16:00:17 <LotR> people stopped working on it
16:00:35 <libby> B:also ical, and mozilla interop...timezones?
16:00:35 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B5.
16:01:03 <LotR> iCal doesn't follow the spec wrt/ timezones I think
16:01:13 <libby> B:relating vCalendar objects to teh components they contain
16:01:13 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B6.
16:01:14 <DanCon> odd... does anybody else see B5 at http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/ ? I only see one comment
16:01:18 <LotR> oh wait, we didn't start yet :)
16:01:55 <libby> B:maybe talk about how to organise and describe tests?
16:01:56 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B7.
16:02:08 <LotR> isn't it easier to write a small html page with the agenda, and link that?
16:02:20 <libby> B:[seealso note to www-rdf-calendar|http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-calendar/2003Jan/0011.html]
16:02:21 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B8.
16:02:25 <libby> yeah, probably
16:02:36 <libby> thought I'd see how it goes
16:02:50 <LotR> b7: might want to look at the Net::ICal test suite
16:02:55 <libby> it's easy to add to this as we go I guess. that url has some items, but people have more
16:03:08 <LotR> hmm, you can't add comments to comments of course
16:03:24 <DanCon> writing B7: ...
16:03:27 <DanCon> replaces B7
16:03:47 <LotR> so did I overwrite, or is it case sensitive?
16:04:03 <zool> LotR, you should know how to use a chump bot honestly ;) it is just like scriborg
16:04:09 <JibberJim> so is there any iCal creation stuff that's not Mozilla or Mac based (both having unusable UI's)
16:04:14 <DanCon> oh... phpht. B is my year view blurb. C is the RDF calendar workspace
16:04:35 <LotR> zool: I don't use scriborg either :)
16:04:37 <DanCon> korganizer
16:04:58 <LotR> evolution
16:05:03 <JibberJim> my kde box went away when I re-rearranged the office...
16:05:05 <DanCon> (I'm not vouching for korganizer's usability, but it's not mozilla, not mac based, and does iCal creation)
16:05:27 <DanCon> yes, evolution is noted at http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/#apps ; korganizer is missing
16:06:36 <JibberJim> okay then, creation by hand then...
16:07:34 <DanCon> I have a python script that makes .ics from .rdf ; not updated to the new namespace, though: http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/pim/toIcal.py <- http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/#dev
16:07:41 <garyfreder> is there a simple example of ical2rdf.pl
16:08:11 <garyfreder> so if we talk about it, all can see what goes in and what comes out?
16:08:18 <DanCon> not sure what you mean, gary... there's a usage example in the source code:
16:08:23 <DanCon> # usage: perl ical2rdf.pl something.ics >something.rdf
16:08:30 <garyfreder> results
16:08:44 <DanCon> and there are several something.ics / something.rdf pairs in the test directory
16:08:46 <garyfreder> the ics in and the rdf out
16:08:51 <garyfreder> good
16:09:12 <DanCon> perhaps you'd be willing to contribute a one-page article on how/why to run ical2rdf.pl ?
16:09:35 <garyfreder> if you contribute about Mozilla ;-)
16:09:58 <_joshua> does RDF have a way to expire elements? you should get the RSS newsreader folks onboard
16:09:58 <LotR> is there rdf2ics too?
16:10:03 <DanCon> hmm... i don't actually use mozilla regularly. Next time I fire it up, maybe I'll write down my experience.
16:10:09 <garyfreder> I plan on using ical2rdf.pl and see how we cah use it with Mozilla's stuff
16:10:22 <DanCon> there's an rdf2ics that needs work: http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/pim/toIcal.py <- http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/#dev
16:11:02 <LotR> step 1) rescue it from python ;)
16:11:29 <garyfreder> :-) sorta my thought - I would prefer python or perl,
16:11:46 <garyfreder> not one for to and one for from rdf
16:11:48 <JibberJim> so why doesn't http://www.w3.org/2002/09dc-tag/itin2.rdf use any ical stuff?
16:12:03 * DanCon is schizophrenic re python/perl. I prefer python overall, but I often start in perl
16:12:27 <DanCon> er... why should it jibberjim?
16:12:47 <JibberJim> because it's talking about what you're doing on a particular date.
16:13:18 <JibberJim> travelling is the only thing I use a diary for, so it's what I would want an RDF diary for...
16:13:28 <DanCon> I don't find ical to be a very good model of the world. I use ical vocab when I want to interoperate with ical tools. I have rules to go from the vocab used in itin2.rdf to ical.
16:13:53 <DanCon>http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/pim/travel.html
16:13:54 <dc_rdfig> D: http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/pim/travel.html from DanCon
16:14:01 <DanCon> D:|Semantic Web Travel Tools
16:14:02 <dc_rdfig> Titled item D.
16:14:37 <DanCon> D:hmm... where are the rules for producing ical? ...
16:14:37 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D1.
16:15:11 * DanCon follows nose via http://www.w3.org/2002/09dc-tag/Makefile
16:15:32 <DanCon> ah... [[
16:15:34 <DanCon> # iCal/evolution support...
16:15:34 <DanCon> itincal.n3: itin2.n3 itin2.rdf $(PIM)/itin2ical.n3
16:15:34 <DanCon> $(PYTHON) $(CWM) itin2.n3 $(PIM)/itin2ical.n3 --think --n3 >$@
16:15:34 <DanCon> ]]
16:16:22 <DanCon> D:needs explanation of using [rules to map from travel itinerary vocabulary to iCalendar vocabulary|http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/pim/itin2ical.n3]
16:16:22 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D2.
16:16:39 <JibberJim> hmm... I'd prefer more immediate interopability.
16:16:55 <DanCon> but ical doesn't have vocuabulary like airport names, lat/long etc.
16:17:14 <DanCon> and ical is fuzzy on whether the subject of :dtstart is an event or a record of an event.
16:17:40 <JibberJim> but the RDF serialisation of ical wouldn't mind these things?
16:17:44 <DanCon> e.g. ical has a last modified property; clearly that applies to a record of an event.
16:17:54 <LotR> DanCon: um, there *is* a property in iCalendar that is specified as lat/lon
16:18:16 <DanCon> the RDF serialization of ical is *more* sensitive, not less, to things like event-vs-record-of-event
16:19:10 <DanCon> I could put both the icalendar facts and the cyc facts in itin2.rdf, if I wanted/needed to. RDF is nifty that way ;-)
16:19:15 <LotR> ah, GEO
16:19:46 <JibberJim> but you wouldn't want to just put ical facts in?
16:19:49 <garyfreder> dtstart is the start of an event; there is another property that records when the event 'record'? was modified
16:20:24 <garyfreder> I was hoping we would talk about iCal and rdf as part of the meeting
16:20:28 <garyfreder> can we wait?
16:20:57 * DanCon doesn't see any need to constrain stuff; is happy to talk about stuff twice
16:20:58 <JibberJim> sorry garyfreder, I won't be here for the meeting, but wanted to try using rdf ical.
16:21:14 <garyfreder> have at :-)
16:22:19 <DanCon> no, jibberjim, I wouldn't constrain itin2.rdf to just ical facts. I'd lose stuff like seat assignments, airline phone numbers, and such.
16:22:31 <garyfreder> I plan on looking at ical2rdf.pl and making sure Mozilla can import/export
16:22:50 <JibberJim> but you could use the ical rdf vocab for the date/time stuff or not?
16:22:59 <garyfreder> I like DanCon approach that the rdf can be more than iCal
16:23:35 <garyfreder> and we can use iCal for dtstart etc and date from another vocab if we want
16:24:01 <garyfreder> brb
16:24:26 <danbri> yes, that's the big appeal of this work, for me
16:25:45 <DanCon> I might be able to use the ical RDF vocab for date/time stuff; I'm not sure. I haven't found any reason to do so yet. When I want interoperability with ical tools like evolution, I use rules.
16:26:32 <DanCon> the cyc vocab is much more appealing to me.
16:27:32 <JibberJim> Right, but it's just your choice, not some other reason at the moment, okay, I can look at using the ical RDF.
16:28:31 * _joshua blinks
16:28:47 <DanCon> D:should explore/discuss using icalendar vocabulary more directly and/or why not.
16:28:47 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D3.
16:28:49 <_joshua> the cyc ontology was ported to rdf?
16:29:09 <DanCon> yes, the cyc guys released an RDF schema. (well, a DAML ontology, same thing)
16:30:02 <zool> that's incomplete, though? ah the whole Cyc Upper Ontology
16:30:16 <LotR> cyc?
16:30:41 <zool> . http://opencyc.sf.net
16:35:55 <DanCon> xmlns:k="http://opencyc.sourceforge.net/daml/cyc.daml#"
16:37:15 <DanCon> I tend to bind k: as above, short for (common) knowledge
16:37:40 <zool> "Common sense won't tell you. We have to tell each other."
16:38:20 * danbri likes that quote
16:38:39 <DanCon> the cyc docs are really, really great. e.g. http://www.cyc.com/cycdoc/vocab/transportation-vocab.html <- http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/pim/travel.html
16:39:20 <DanCon> D:makes liberal use of stuff like [cyc transportation vocabulary|http://www.cyc.com/cycdoc/vocab/transportation-vocab.html]
16:39:20 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D4.
16:40:04 <DanCon> libby, would you move your comments from B to C? I don't think you meant your comments to be about year views
16:55:31 <libby> damn...I meant them to continue the agenda I thought you'd started.
16:55:39 <libby> yeah, move ;em in a sec
16:56:39 * danbri will have limited attention for cal meeting, sadly (busy in other windows); will try to pop up and track discussion etc though.
16:58:09 <libby> C:various agenda items:
16:58:09 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C2.
16:59:20 <libby> C:Benjamin Sontaag is coming along and can talk about OpenCap, an open source calendaring project he's been working on
16:59:20 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C3.
16:59:36 <libby> C:Gary Frederick has offered to talk about xcal, mozilla and getting iCal or rdf-cal? in/out of Mozilla
16:59:36 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C4.
17:00:04 <libby> C:ical and mozilla interop...timezones?
17:00:04 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C5.
17:00:35 <libby> C:relating vCalendar objects to the components they contain
17:00:36 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C6.
17:00:48 <libby> C:how to organise and describe tests
17:00:49 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C7.
17:01:09 <libby> C:year views of calendars
17:01:09 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C8.
17:01:26 <libby> B3:""
17:01:26 <dc_rdfig> Deleted comment B3.
17:01:43 <libby> B4:""
17:01:43 <dc_rdfig> Deleted comment B4.
17:01:48 <DanCon> what's the deal with timezones? oh... you mean apple:ical there? yes, apple:ical is busted w.r.t. timezones. :-{
17:01:48 <libby> B5:""
17:01:48 <dc_rdfig> Deleted comment B5.
17:02:05 <libby> is it? mozcalendar is too
17:02:16 <libby> it calls everything Z (UTC)
17:02:21 <libby> whatever it really is
17:02:39 <libby> B5:""
17:02:39 <dc_rdfig> Deleted comment B5.
17:02:49 <libby> B4:""
17:02:49 <dc_rdfig> Deleted comment B4.
17:02:52 <libby> B3:""
17:02:52 <dc_rdfig> Deleted comment B3.
17:03:15 <libby> so what's wrong with ical's timezones?
17:03:26 <garyfreder> ical uses Z (UTC) and has properties where you can set your local timezone
17:04:24 <garyfreder> and if we use parts of iCal (dtstart etc) and whatever works for dates in the rdf - we win
17:04:58 <LotR> apple:ical needs to include VTIMEZONE components in its VCALENDARS for every TZID it mentions
17:05:15 <libby> 'needs to'=ought to?
17:05:23 <libby> does it use an x-property?
17:06:20 <LotR> hmm?
17:06:28 <JibberJim> that's one of the things which puts me off, it makes me not want to use ical as we get a load of redundant information in each serialisation.
17:07:22 <libby> when I was playign with apple ical I didn;t notice any TZ descriptions
17:08:25 <LotR> JibberJim: I think it is that way because it isn't clear it is redundant
17:09:16 <LotR> it is probably a good idea to talk to ietf-calendar befor jumping to conclusions :)
17:10:10 <JibberJim> Yes, I appreciate that it's not obvious it's redundant, but I'd prefer to link to a file which said "I use these timezones" rather than defining them every time.
17:10:23 <JibberJim> my rdf parser is very slow, I like to count the triples...
17:10:31 <eikeon> lol
17:11:11 <DanCon> apple:ical uses an x-property rather than standard VTIMEZONE stuff: http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/test/mtg.ics
17:11:54 <libby> that's what I thought
17:13:20 <LotR> hmm, there's only redundant information in there. *boggle*
17:13:55 <libby> so deltab chumped this yesteday: http://www.twinsun.com/tz/tz-link.htm
17:14:11 <libby> are there not standard text formats to use for the tz location?
17:14:35 <libby> e.g. e.g., TZ="America/New_York".
17:14:45 <_joshua> That's not a timezone
17:14:51 <DanCon> those are de-facto standard, yes.
17:14:51 <_joshua> i thought there were standards for this
17:15:49 <LotR> _joshua: what do you mean that is not a timezone?
17:16:23 <DanCon> the evolution distributeion includes that tz database in .ics files; I tested ical2rdf.pl on them a while back, successfully; see the ,chi.rdf rule in http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/pim/Makefile
17:16:44 <garyfreder> you can see some tz in the Evolution source
17:17:23 <garyfreder> oops :-) and in the libical (what Evolution uses as a library)
17:17:25 <LotR> DanCon: it's not exactly that database. I think they dumbed it down for MS Outlook's sake
17:17:54 <DanCon> I suspect that _joshua meant that the offset between UTC and new york time doesn't stay constant. Nonetheless, ical does allow you to express, e.g. "every tuesday at 2p new york time"
17:18:18 <garyfreder> and to handle when the time changes
17:18:24 <mrlc> hi all
17:18:26 <libby> - because of daylight savings time and so on?
17:18:35 <DanCon> yes, because of DST
17:19:10 <LotR> right. I think America/New_York is much more workable than EST/EDT
17:19:33 <DanCon> each has its uses
17:19:41 <libby> hi mrlc
17:20:08 <mrlc> hi libby
17:20:17 <mrlc> i'm having a problem building the perl interface of cvs version of redland ; swig 1.3.10 give me a syntax error on Redland.i ; someone knows if there are issues?
17:20:19 <LotR> (the meeting time was UTC, no?)
17:20:32 <libby> dajobe's your man
17:20:40 <libby> yep, lotr
17:21:08 <dajobe> are you using a new swig with an old redland
17:21:20 <dajobe> if so, that won't work so well; swig has changed somewhat
17:21:28 <dajobe> oh, cvs
17:21:29 <dajobe> hmm
17:21:41 <dajobe> ok, swig 1.3.10 is rather old
17:21:50 <dajobe> try soemthing around 1.3.16
17:22:07 <dajobe> or 1.3.14. those are what I've been using recently
17:22:23 <mrlc> ah many thanks , i go to try :)
17:28:31 * danbri fiddles with Wiki installation, finally finds where config values were buried
17:28:42 <danbri> in the wiki data to facilitate nice web-based editing. doh.
17:30:50 <libby> hey maxf
17:31:15 * maxf waves
17:32:00 <_joshua> haha
17:44:24 <mrlc> dajobe : many thanks , has worked wonderfully with swig 1.3.15
17:44:32 <dajobe> great
17:45:16 <danbri> . http://esw.w3.org/t/view/ESW/WebHome
17:46:12 <danbri> wiki stuff up and running. currently without ACLs so classic anon access wiki
17:46:12 * danbri scratches head about switching access control on
17:47:02 <DanCon> if it keeps a full history, I recommend keeping it world-writeable
17:47:22 <DanCon> if there's a risk of somebody else completely deleting what I write with no possibility to recover it, I won't use it, though.
17:47:43 <danbri> i was originally worried about bad stuff, but realising how much porn/spam is on our listserver, i think we'll be ok
17:48:21 <danbri> and its just a scratchpad, not full project docs, so I'm not as edgy about IPR hoopjumping as I used to be.
17:51:24 <libby> hi, andrea? thanks for coming along
17:51:58 <acampi> hi all - is the time right (forgot to check TZ)
17:52:16 <libby> yep, starting in a few minutes
17:52:25 <acampi> acampi is now known as andrea
17:52:45 <andrea> andrea is now known as andrea_it
17:52:49 <andrea_it> great
17:53:04 <garyfreder> Howdy Andrea, be careful mentioning timezones - we had a talk about iCal's tz support :-)
17:53:19 <maxf> danbri?
17:53:28 <andrea_it> gary: ;-) what did you say about that?
17:53:36 <garyfreder> iCal is iCalendar unless someone from Apple shows
17:53:46 <andrea_it> sure
17:53:54 <libby> confusing :(
17:54:00 <DanCon> BLURB: RDF Calendar Chat - participants
17:54:00 <dc_rdfig> E: RDF Calendar Chat - participants from DanCon
17:54:09 <garyfreder> I told them that the tz stuff can describe what time an event is relative to UTC Z
17:54:11 <andrea_it> (I do hope somebody from Apple show hope - I am an OS X user myself)
17:54:13 <libby> ol said he was coming...
17:54:19 <garyfreder> :-)
17:54:34 <andrea_it> gary: right. by the way, I plan to redo TZ handling in libical
17:54:41 <garyfreder> :-)
17:54:58 <andrea_it> the way it's currently handled is, well, ugly - it doesn't play well with CAP at all
17:55:09 <andrea_it> this is almost on top of my TODO list
17:55:12 <DanCon> E:[Dan Connolly:http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/], W3C Technical Staff. swap/cwm hacker. WebOnt WG team contact. former HTML WG chair, XML activity lead.
17:55:12 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E1.
17:55:20 <libby> DanCon, are you thinking role-call?
17:55:26 <libby> roll-call even
17:55:33 <benjamin_alternc> benjamin_alternc is now known as benjamin_sonntag
17:55:42 <libby> hey benjamin, thanks for coming along
17:55:42 <DanCon> yup; roll call. if you want to be recorded as a participant, give a one-line bio
17:55:43 <andrea_it> hi benjamin
17:56:06 <andrea_it> dan: does the format matter?
17:56:11 <DanCon> E1:[Dan Connolly|http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/], W3C Technical Staff. swap/cwm hacker. WebOnt WG team contact. former HTML WG chair, XML activity lead.
17:56:11 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment E1.
17:56:15 * JibberJim leaves before he has to give a bio.
17:56:23 <DanCon> andrea_it, well, a link to your homepage seems kinda important.
17:56:26 <garyfreder> :-)
17:56:40 <libby> andrea, preface it with E: to like to http://rdfig.xmlhack.com
17:56:41 <DanCon> andrea_it, but otherwise, whatever you want folks to know about you.
17:56:57 <andrea_it> no I mean, the E, square brackets et all
17:57:20 <DanCon> ah; chump-speak. yes... see http://usefulinc.com/chump/MANUAL.txt
17:57:34 <DanCon> basically: E: blah blah [name|homepageAddress] blah blah
17:58:03 <DanCon> and see your name in lights at http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/
17:58:50 <libby> hi Ol, we're just doign a quick roll-call
17:58:57 <garyfreder> E: Gary Frederick OpenOffice.org Groupware, Mozilla Calendar helper, IETF calsch reader of standards http://www.jsoft.com/
17:58:57 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E2.
17:58:57 <DanCon> DanCon has changed the topic to: RDF Calendaring 1800Z Wed 15Jan. http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/
17:59:08 <benjamin_sonntag> eikeon: [BSonntag|http://opencap.org], noc manager (gitoyen.net) and french opensource software developper (alternc.net, opencap.org)
17:59:17 <andrea_it> E:[Andrea Campi|http://www.webcom.it/], I.Net/Genuity/British Telecom R&D division, libical committer
17:59:18 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E3.
17:59:32 <DanCon> benjamin_sonntag, you've been bitten by an overly "smart" IRC client. get rid of the space after E:
17:59:32 <LotR> yay for autocompletion :)
18:01:00 <libby> E:Libby Miller, RDF query hacker, rdf calendar taskforce contact, [url totally out of date :(|http://ilrt.org/people/cmlm]
18:01:00 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E4.
18:01:05 <benjamin_sonntag> E:[BSonntag|http://opencap.org], noc manager (gitoyen.net) and french opensource software developper (alternc.net, opencap.org)
18:01:05 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E5.
18:01:06 <DanCon> the C: item is sorta serving as our agenda. so agenda requests can be written: C:bugs in floocal
18:01:34 <andrea_it> E3:[Andrea Campi|mailto:a.campi@inet.it], I.Net/Genuity/British Telecom R&D division, libical committer
18:01:34 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment E3.
18:01:45 * DanCon suggests libby could put the calendar "
18:01:59 * DanCon suggests libby could put the calendar "task force" page in her bio; perhaps more relevant than that homepage
18:02:12 <LotR> E:Martijn van Beers, Net::ICal hacker. no url
18:02:12 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E6.
18:02:19 <libby> what, the new one?
18:02:26 <danbri> E:[Dan Brickley|http://www.w3.org/people/danbri/] (W3C), [RDF Interest Group|http://www.w3.org/RDF/Interest/] chair and [SWAD-Europe project|http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/] -- rdf hacker, occasional calendarist, mozilla rdf sympathiser.
18:02:26 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E7.
18:02:28 <DanCon> no, the old one
18:02:43 <maxf> E:[Max Froumentin:http://www.w3.org/People/maxf/], W3C Technical Staff, Multimodal Interaction, Voice Browser and Math WGs contact, formerly XSL. SVG/RDF/XSLT hacker.
18:02:44 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E8.
18:03:06 * DanCon wonders how one gets from Martijn van Beers to LotR
18:03:24 * danbri suspects via tolkein
18:03:28 * LotR wonders why nick and realname have to be related
18:03:36 <danbri> fair point
18:03:55 <libby> E4:Libby Miller, RDF query hacker, [rdf interest group calendar taskforce contact|http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/2001/04/calendar/]
18:03:55 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment E4.
18:04:16 <DanCon> they don't have to be textually related. but they're related somehow, if only that you're often called by "Martin..." and you choose to be known as "LotR" here.
18:05:20 <mikep> ericm: Mike Potter, Mozilla Calendar project leader, Software developer OEone corp.
18:05:24 <mikep> e:Mike Potter, Mozilla Calendar project leader, Software developer OEone corp.
18:05:28 <libby> Ol? want to introdce yourself?
18:05:33 <Ol> E:Olivier Gutknecht, Apple iCal developer
18:05:33 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E9.
18:05:34 <danbri> capital letters...
18:05:36 <andrea_it> hi mike
18:05:36 <libby> maiekp, has to be capital E
18:05:42 <mikep> E:Mike Potter, Mozilla Calendar project leader, Software developer OEone corp.
18:05:42 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E10.
18:05:43 <libby> thanks
18:05:47 <DanCon> wow... nifty crowd today!
18:06:50 <libby> so.....
18:06:57 <andrea_it> E3:[Andrea Campi|mailto:a.campi@inet.it], I.Net/BT Ignite R&D division, libical committer
18:06:57 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment E3.
18:06:57 * LotR wonders if iCal has a 'bugzilla'
18:06:59 <garyfreder> so - what's the purpose of this meeting (where can we see the agenda)
18:07:12 <libby> our rough agenda is here: http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/2003/01/15/2003-01-15.html#1042646246.014378
18:07:23 <DanCon> LoTR, http://search.cpan.org/author/SRL/Net-ICal-0.15/lib/Net/ICal.pm shows Shane Landrum as author; you work with Shane?
18:07:42 <libby> I guess at this stage, information sharing is the purpose of the meeting
18:08:22 <libby> we're keen to represent iCalendar as RDF using ics data from various sources, see http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/
18:08:44 <garyfreder> I would be interested is starting - and pass on abut xCal and the IETF standards
18:08:46 <LotR> DanCon: srl is listed as author because CPAN doesn't like a non-person entity author
18:08:52 <libby> last time we chatted about xcal a bit ....
18:09:01 <libby> yeah, gary, you start
18:09:11 <DanCon> you're a non-person entity, LotR?
18:09:21 <LotR> no, reefknot
18:09:31 <garyfreder> There are calendar standards - iCalendar
18:10:09 <garyfreder> the format is "dtstart:01152003"
18:10:21 <LotR> and srl was someone who already had a PAUSE account
18:10:35 <garyfreder> the iCalendar folks have IETF standards
18:10:57 <garyfreder> there is an effort to have an xml version of iCalendar - xCal
18:10:59 * DanCon is curious about PAUSE accounts now, but should propabably persue that in another forum
18:11:01 <LotR> garyfreder: you've got the date elements ordered backwards :)
18:11:23 * garyfreder wishes I had prepaired before starting :-)
18:11:31 <garyfreder> prepared?
18:11:38 <garyfreder> anyhow
18:11:57 <DanCon> garyfreder, when last we chatted, I couldn't confirm such an effort from the IETF calsched charter. http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/calsch-charter.html . did you say you were going to contact the chair?
18:12:25 <garyfreder> xCal is not 'official' - the iCalendar (calsch) group is interested in having a xml representation
18:12:41 <DanCon> you mean some participants of the calsch group, right?
18:12:53 <garyfreder> BUT there is not an official xCal in the calsch sharter
18:12:57 <libby> hey terry
18:13:03 <garyfreder> DanCon: yes
18:13:10 <cappuccinofreak> hey you - made it at last... :)
18:13:17 <libby> :)
18:13:25 <garyfreder> I talked with Pat, one of the calsch co-chairs
18:13:25 * DanCon invites timbl, terry to introduce themselves ala: E: [TimBL|http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/], W3C guy
18:13:59 <garyfreder> and she told me xCal was not in the charter, but they could add it
18:14:10 <cappuccinofreak> Hi People - sorry, first time IRC user. Terry Payne (now Univ Southampton)
18:14:19 <garyfreder> I would like to see this group moving forward
18:14:39 <libby> moz cal does xcal output right?
18:14:52 <garyfreder> defining something that includes an xml namespace for iCalendar stuff
18:15:09 <garyfreder> the xCal out of Moz is based on the proposed standard
18:15:09 <cappuccinofreak> cappuccinofreak is now known as TerryPayne
18:15:17 <DanCon> E:[Terry Payne|http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~trp/index.html] (now Univ Southampton)
18:15:17 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E11.
18:15:42 * DanCon recalls seeing xcal support in mozilla
18:16:31 <tim-lap> E:[TimBL|http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/] w3C, cwm hacker, iCal and Moz cal user, interested in mapping all kinds fo things into calendars, and generic RDF synch.
18:16:31 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E12.
18:16:40 <garyfreder> I plan on working with the input/output in Mozilla cal and have it 'work' with the rdf-calendar like what ical2rdf.pl does
18:16:40 <andrea_it> one question: I've seen xCal mentioned a few times, both on the ieft list and elsewhere
18:16:43 <libby> so I think you said last week that ixcal had to be a stright transformation of icalendar, gary
18:16:49 <maxf> if xcal are .xcs files and look like ical in XML, the yes DanCon
18:16:50 <andrea_it> what's the rationale for using xCal vs iCalendar?
18:17:01 <garyfreder> we can work with calsch and they can use what we do or continue to work on xCal
18:17:12 <garyfreder> xCal is just iCalendar in xml
18:17:31 <garyfreder> <dtstart>correctlyformatteddate,/dtstart>
18:18:00 <libby> do many other apps use it?
18:18:02 <andrea_it> granted - so what's the plus?
18:18:05 <garyfreder> andrea_it: it's not xCal vs iCalendar - they are just two ways to represent the data
18:18:10 <libby> does moz import it?
18:18:16 <DanCon> my (not so hidden) agenda is to get xcal to morph to be RDF as well as XML.
18:18:21 <garyfreder> xCal is a LOT easier to use
18:18:47 <tim-lap> because... there is less misunderstanding about how to parse XML compared with ical lines?
18:18:47 <LotR> why is it easier to use?
18:18:49 <DanCon> er... garyfreder, are there easy to use xCal tools? I don't think ease-of-typing-into-emacs is all that relevant, is it?
18:18:53 <garyfreder> DanCon: I now want to help with your agenda
18:19:10 <andrea_it> dancon: this i can agree with (RDF)
18:19:23 <garyfreder> xCal is xml - we can use any xml tools vs iCalendar that needs a parser
18:19:34 <DanCon> should I rename ical2rdf.pl to be ical2xcal.pl? 1/2 ;-)
18:19:44 * tim-lap back in a few
18:19:52 <andrea_it> tim-lap: uhm. most ambiguities are solved, and those who aren't would still be in xCal if it's a direct mapping
18:20:55 <garyfreder> I like the idea of using namespaces - we can have an iCalendar representation where it works and use whatever elsewhere EG
18:21:03 <andrea_it> gary: so it's basically a tradeoff XML library vs icalendar library
18:21:41 <garyfreder> <dc:date>dateusing dc namespace</dc:date> ... <iCal:dtstart>...
18:21:52 <TerryPayne> if you think of representation, perhaps. But XML provides more flexibility
18:22:01 <garyfreder> rdf uses whatever it needs
18:22:22 <libby> gary, are there lots of xcal examples anywhere?
18:22:26 <garyfreder> xml provides more flexability (thanks TerryPayne )
18:22:27 <andrea_it> ok I see your point
18:22:28 <garyfreder> no
18:22:33 <libby> I guess we could generate them using moz
18:22:40 <benjamin_sonntag> TerryPayne:no more flexibility than iCal, but more parsing/coding library and tools available
18:23:22 <DanCon>http://reefknot.sourceforge.net./
18:23:22 <dc_rdfig> F: http://reefknot.sourceforge.net./ from DanCon
18:23:31 <garyfreder> and we can use XPath etc rather than come up with the calendar version of sql
18:23:33 <DanCon> F:|Reefknot -- shared calendar tools in perl
18:23:33 <dc_rdfig> Titled item F.
18:23:36 <danbri> for eg., re motivations, I went looking for iCal parser in the Ruby language, and a few folk said 'have you seen the size of the spec? nobody's done a ruby parser yet'. If it were XML, the perceived (real?) difficulty of writing parsers may be lower.
18:23:42 <libby> so, could we move this forward by colecting testcases?
18:23:48 <LotR> F:mostly dead
18:23:48 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F1.
18:23:50 <TerryPayne> benjamine_sonntag:depends - you might embed an rdf fragment into a webpage or other rdf description
18:23:58 <garyfreder> and we can represent reoccuring events easier in rdf (or so I think)
18:24:11 <garyfreder> BUT we can not throw iCalendart away
18:24:11 <libby> gary, there was a query langauge for icalendar in SQL wasn;t there?
18:24:22 <garyfreder> yep andrea_it ?
18:24:27 * danbri nods; this shouldn't be about throwing away
18:24:29 <mdupont_> mdupont_ is now known as mdupont
18:24:31 <DanCon> I think the price of parsing icalendar is sunk cost in the open source community. we have evolution, korganizer, libical, Net::ICal, etc.
18:24:32 <benjamin_sonntag> libby: Yes, similar to sql, with a smaller subset
18:24:34 <mdupont> hey
18:24:35 <libby> too many things use it
18:24:48 <Ol> libby: yes, it's SQL-like, and can be found in CAP draft
18:24:51 <andrea_it> gary ok
18:24:54 <TerryPayne> benjamin_sonntag:+ theres all the DAML+OIL & SemWeb reasoning potential
18:25:13 <danbri> ...though i'm wary of mechanistically converting all of iCal into RDF, since some bits have difficulties or aren't used (or that's the impression i have)
18:25:25 <andrea_it> anyway: i guess xCal would be supported -in addition- to iCalendar
18:25:36 <andrea_it> I really don't see everybody moving to xCal
18:25:39 <andrea_it> right?
18:25:55 <maxf> Apple?
18:25:57 <garyfreder> I like the idea of representing calendar info in rdf and using iCalendar where is is reasonable
18:25:58 <DanCon> hence our http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/ methodology, danbri: nothing goes in unless it's used in practice.
18:25:59 <garyfreder> superset
18:26:06 <libby> one thing that's intersting to me anyway is hat things like attendees, organisers only seem to be used when you are organising the meetings
18:26:18 <libby> but they are the parts that connect events to people
18:26:20 * danbri nods, agrees w/ DanCon
18:26:22 <LotR> danbri: what bits aren't used? and maybe that's a problem of iCal tools being rather new still?
18:26:32 * DanCon thinks we've got enough people that a bit of agenda management is in order...
18:27:07 <maxf> LotR, TIMEZONE ?
18:27:08 <garyfreder> I said my piece and can be quiet
18:27:12 <DanCon> are we done with the xCal overview? OpenCap next?
18:27:14 <libby> thanks gary
18:27:23 <garyfreder> and will pass on to the calsch folks
18:27:23 <libby> sounds good to me
18:27:31 <TerryPayne> ok
18:27:31 <garyfreder> thanks for the soapbox
18:27:39 <DanCon> pass what on to calsch folks?
18:27:48 <garyfreder> the comments here
18:27:49 <andrea_it> gary: shouldn't you talk about mozilla plans?
18:27:55 <garyfreder> Mike?
18:27:57 <andrea_it> by the way, which calsch people?
18:28:00 <DanCon> copy www-rdf-calendar when you do, please, garyfreder
18:28:05 <garyfreder> ok
18:28:35 <benjamin_sonntag> opencap...
18:28:37 <mikep> andrea_it: Mozilla calendar plans for what? xCal?
18:28:56 <DanCon> agenda (C:) says garyfreder's item includes mozilla... can opencap wait a sec?
18:29:07 <benjamin_sonntag> yes, I'm interested in mozilla plans too :)
18:29:14 <mdupont>http://freshmeat.net/projects/introspector/
18:29:14 <dc_rdfig> G: http://freshmeat.net/projects/introspector/ from mdupont
18:29:16 <DanCon> garyfreder, I'm curious about the possibility of mozilla calendar using mozilla's RDF support...
18:29:22 <garyfreder> I pass on to mikep if someone tells him what to talk about
18:29:35 <mdupont> G:|Introspector page on freshmeat for the 0.4 alpha release
18:29:35 <dc_rdfig> Titled item G.
18:29:51 * danbri too, re moz cal / rdf
18:29:52 <mikep> I think that its safe to say that Mozilla will continue to use ical for now, since it seems to be the only real stable way to represent calendar data.
18:29:58 <DanCon> ... I gather the mozilla calendar is a port to the mozilla platform of an older calendar tool, with its own architecture. So using Mozilla's RDF architecture seems like a lot of work. true?
18:29:58 <danbri> how are we for time / agenda items?
18:30:13 <mikep> We would like to move to something like RDF to hold our data, but a move to that soon seems unlikely.
18:30:14 <andrea_it> mikep: you're using a stock 0.23?
18:30:22 <andrea_it> of libical I mean
18:30:38 <mikep> No, we're using a modified 0.23 and will move to 0.24 when its released. ( if? ;) )
18:30:43 <libby> 30 mins in, 2nd item, but we can continue on teh maikling list
18:30:57 <garyfreder> I think the Mozilla Calendar could use a rewrite and use rdf. I was wondering about the college project that will look at Mozilla?
18:31:01 <libby> hm , no, first item
18:31:02 <danbri> mikep, Mozilla's fairly agnostic about what sits behind implementations of its RDF API, so you could perhaps expose an RDF data source to XUL, without having to move your cal store to use RDF triples everywhere.
18:31:03 <andrea_it> mikep: touche
18:31:23 * DanCon reserved 2 hrs for this meeting in his own calendar. http://calendar.sidekick.dngr.com/event?id=256 [you can't see that; password protected]
18:31:24 <mikep> danbri: Yes, that's what we're thinking as well.
18:31:31 <libby> danbri, but then you would have to have an RDFmodel of icalendar
18:31:43 <mikep> Unfortunately, OEone's knowledge of RDF is lacking, so we'll need a lot of help to move the Moz Calendar to using RDF.
18:31:46 <andrea_it> mikep: how high on mozilla priorities is to have a working CAP implementation?
18:32:02 <DanCon> read-only RDF access to the mozilla calendar internals seems like a reasonable thing to hope for.
18:32:03 <mikep> It would be useful for the events list at the very least.
18:32:05 <danbri> mikep, i'd be very interested to see any notes/progress you have towards that (mailing www-rdf-calendar woudl be good)
18:32:11 <benjamin_sonntag> andrea_it: Yes Gary ? how high ?
18:32:26 <danbri> libby, yes, though the RDFAPIfication layer could do a bit of mapping, perhaps.
18:32:53 <mikep> A working CAP implementation right now seems out of reach given the amount of people we have working on the calendar.
18:33:13 <mikep> Right now, our highest priority is to get into the Mozilla build system by default, so people can download Mozilla with calendar already in it.
18:33:18 <DanCon> the idea of a calendar server doesn't appeal to me. calendaring is intensely peer-to-peer, in my world. My calendar is a merge of data from all over the web, at one extreme, and at the other, it's all-and-only what my WearableGizmo knows.
18:33:31 <mikep> That will get more people using it, more people filing the bugs, and then hopefully more people helping to contribute to it.
18:34:20 <garyfreder> DanCon: a server lets us have agendas
18:34:21 <andrea_it> mikep: if 0.24 (or 0.25 at worst) included an API for accessing data from a server?
18:34:27 <benjamin_sonntag> DanCon: You forget the 'corporate' point of view : firms used to manage their email / calendar in a centralized way.
18:34:34 <andrea_it> dancon: it really depends on your target
18:34:50 <DanCon> like we don't already have agendas, garyfreder? how so?
18:35:01 <mikep> Maybe now would be a good time to talk opencap?
18:35:02 <andrea_it> companies want to move away from exchange - you can't do that without a server ;-)
18:35:02 * DanCon is happy to forget the corproate point of view
18:35:13 <libby> benjamin, did you say that CAP was rather a moving target?
18:35:14 <Ol> the server approach is also interesting for shared resources (rooms, ...)
18:35:19 <garyfreder> I set up an agenda and publish so others can connect/update
18:35:33 <DanCon> yes, each shared resource needs its own server/service. that makes sense to me.
18:35:34 * garyfreder wonders what kind of agenda we are talking about :-)
18:35:53 <danbri> mikep & co., just wanted to say that I really like the moz cal ability to subscribe to cal URLs from around the Web. getting into the default build would I think help encourage 1000s of such cal URLs
18:35:54 <benjamin_sonntag> DanCon: You have an agenda, but can you access your contacts availability in a standardized way ?
18:36:16 <DanCon> yes, the "subscribe to N calendars" support in Mozilla (and pioneered by apple ical?) is WAY, WAY COOL!
18:36:20 * danbri would like to heare about cal servers, even though he shares danc's web doc oriented bias
18:36:20 <danbri> +1
18:36:32 <LotR> DanCon: and you can have an agent (pre-) handle appointments for you while you're limited to WearableGimzo
18:36:38 <mdupont>http://freshmeat.net/projects-xml/introspector/introspector.xml
18:36:38 <dc_rdfig> H: http://freshmeat.net/projects-xml/introspector/introspector.xml from mdupont
18:36:40 * danbri dunno who pioneered it, doesn't care to go there. whatever, it's v nifty :)
18:36:57 <libby> should we move onto opencap then?
18:37:05 <andrea_it> fine
18:37:07 <danbri> sure
18:37:08 <mdupont> H:is the xml record for the introspector, too bad they dont use rdf
18:37:08 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H1.
18:37:11 <benjamin_sonntag> Well, OpenCap is a new opensource project whose aim is to build a CAP Server in C with an underlying RDBMS
18:37:18 <DanCon> the fact that I can't access my contacts availability in a standardized way is a fact about the real world, not something I expect any amount of technology to change.
18:37:22 <LotR> is there anything to opencap besides the announcement?
18:38:07 <benjamin_sonntag> Yes : about 10000 lines of C codes, this code uses LibiCal, RoadRunner and libPostgres
18:38:09 <mdupont> sorry for distrubing, should have notice the sign, next time i knock
18:38:17 * tim-lap back, catching up
18:38:33 <DanCon> i.e. unless a whole bunch of people agree to some *social protocol* that I have never seen, software is just going to artificially constrain them, which doesn't help much, I don't think.
18:38:45 <libby> it's ok mdupont
18:38:53 <benjamin_sonntag> The problem is that CAP changed a lot in 2002 : They used a XML Command system, and now the commands are included in a text/calendar data chunk.
18:39:03 <DanCon> though you could do a lot worse than postgress and BEEP, meanwhile.
18:39:11 <andrea_it> ye, CAP is still changing
18:39:31 <benjamin_sonntag> Those changed were good ideas, but opencap suffered from it...
18:39:36 <DanCon> timbl, you think you can get RDF calendar sync working before CAP stabilizes? 1/2 ;-)
18:39:38 <andrea_it> I think (hope) we will have more changes before it's finalized
18:39:44 <garyfreder> benjamin_sonntag: when would something working be available?
18:39:45 <andrea_it> but we're not far away
18:39:51 <Ol> Are opencap and momentum the same project ?
18:39:55 <benjamin_sonntag> The main idea is just to bring the opensource community a Calendar Server
18:40:03 <benjamin_sonntag> no, momentum is another project.
18:40:25 <benjamin_sonntag> I did not find anything related to CAP in momentum (nothing updated anyway)
18:40:29 <garyfreder> Momentum will work with benjamin_sonntag
18:40:33 <DanCon> does CAP support scheduling across servers? or is it only for one enterprise?
18:40:40 <andrea_it> dancon: not yet
18:40:47 <LotR> what/where is momentum?
18:40:49 <garyfreder> would it andrea_it
18:41:04 <andrea_it> it's not in scope for CAP, but will be discussed by itself
18:41:11 <andrea_it> and eventually become a new draft
18:41:12 <benjamin_sonntag> garyfreder: Yes Gary, it would.
18:41:21 <DanCon> hmm... no scheduling across servers... I prefer a CVS-backed HTTP page, in that case. e.g. that's what we use for our teleconference reservation system.
18:41:43 <andrea_it> sorry, I misunderstood
18:41:45 <benjamin_sonntag> The aim of CAP is to create a common calendar protocol.
18:41:56 <libby> benjamin_sonntag can you summarise what CAP does?
18:41:57 <andrea_it> I meant: no sync between separate servers
18:41:59 <garyfreder> cal access protocol
18:42:15 <tim-lap> I tell you what would be useful is hooks. I can store and mainupulate stuff in lots of ways if the calendar agents check whether a local file is modified and if so referesh, and don't overwrite changes files.)
18:42:19 <danbri> CAP people... (if you haven't already) can you put www-rdf-calendar@w3.org on your list of places to ping when interesting things happen with CAP, ie. announcements, releases etc?
18:42:21 <libby> is it very complex?
18:42:23 <benjamin_sonntag> CAP allow a Calendar User (Moz,ooo, ...) to access Calendar Data (text/calendar) with commands such as
18:42:28 <benjamin_sonntag> create / modify / delete / schedule ...
18:42:52 <libby> create event, modify event 122345, etc?
18:42:58 <andrea_it> libby: not very complex, no
18:43:08 <LotR> danbri: why don't you subscribe to ietf-calendar instead?
18:43:21 <benjamin_sonntag> libby: Yes, plus a kind of 'folders' managment (VAgenda)
18:43:23 <DanCon> thought experiment: suppose those present wanted to schedule our next RDF calendaring chat. I'm interested to know how CAP is designed to apply to that situation.
18:43:25 <_joshua> i hope please for the love of god don't reinvent IMAP
18:43:27 <benjamin_sonntag> and ACL too ...
18:43:29 <andrea_it> libby: something like that. it's just an extension to iCalendar, really - defining new components / properties / parameters
18:43:53 <libby> yep, DanCon's idea +1
18:43:54 <danbri> LoTR - I probably will do that... but for major announcments, letting folk further afield know is useful
18:44:23 <benjamin_sonntag> DanCon: You just have to click on "create an event" in your calendar software and add all the attendee. The CAP client will do the necessary stuff : sending iTip scheduling requests or
18:44:25 <tim-lap> How about create/modify/delete RDF? i could think of more uses for it than calendaring. Bookmarks, yes... impa folders .. all these protocols could be just RDF
18:44:31 <benjamin_sonntag> talking with other cap server as needed.
18:44:45 <andrea_it> dancon: we'd all have a CAP URI. so a CAP client would know to connect to each server and create the meeting request
18:44:51 <DanCon> benjamin_sonntag, that assumes all of us use a common CAP server, right? I'd rather not make that assumption.
18:45:05 <andrea_it> or, if somebody lacks a CAP URI, it could revert to iMIP
18:45:10 <ericP> re create/modify/delete RDF, sandro periodicaly gets excited about doing a databse API
18:45:11 <_joshua> IMAP is a sortof multithreaded monstrosity. I don't know how it would just "be" RDF.
18:45:18 <benjamin_sonntag> DanCon: no, your cap server may be designed to do iTip request or iMip request for some peers.
18:45:20 <danbri> _joshua's point re IMAP and TimBL's seem fair comment: there's a lot of commonality with other protocols. I'd be interested to hear aboutthe most Calendar-centric aspects of CAP.
18:45:25 <tim-lap> So the cap server just moves data around, or knows a lot about people how they arrange meetings?
18:45:26 <_joshua> I think you could use RDF over BXXP pretty trivial
18:45:32 <libby> what's a CAP URI?
18:45:49 <tim-lap> (_joshua: IMAP at eth end of the day is just a way of manipulating a graph)
18:45:58 <benjamin_sonntag> libby: cap://server.com/folder/folder/calendar
18:46:05 <benjamin_sonntag> libby: iana compliant :)
18:46:07 <andrea_it> libby: cap://cal.example.com/andrea_it/blahblah
18:46:08 <_joshua> presumably one way to do it would to just post your RDF somewhere and tell a calander-aware indexer to pick the data up?
18:46:29 * danbri likes that model
18:46:36 <DanCon> say a few more words about "do iTip request or iMip"? I don't get it. Sounds like scheduling across servers; did we miscommunicate earlier when I learned that CAP doesn't do scheduling across servers?
18:46:48 <andrea_it> tim-lap: CAP is just data storage - it's a different binding for iTIP
18:46:50 <andrea_it> but
18:47:04 <andrea_it> a useful server would probably do some amount of workflow mgmt for you
18:47:04 <libby> would someone be willing to write a few paragraphs about how we might schedule this meeting with opencap?
18:47:17 <andrea_it> under user configuration of course
18:47:30 <_joshua> I'm not sure you want to replace all protocols with RDF since many of them are very domain-{specific/limited}
18:47:31 <andrea_it> it's just like my email server doing filtering for me, for instance
18:47:34 <benjamin_sonntag> libby: your question is the same as if you ask : "how can I access a webpage with apache ?"
18:47:47 <benjamin_sonntag> it's only a calendar storage server
18:47:50 <andrea_it> dancon: yes I corrected myself
18:47:53 <libby> oh
18:48:04 <_joshua> It'd be neat to build a generic RDF spider
18:48:10 * danbri interested in the domain-specific aspects of CAP, ie. what it would do to help facilitate meetings
18:48:37 * danbri sorta has the bones of one of those (RDF spider); will post details later
18:48:52 <andrea_it> ben: either me or you should give a better, more complete example
18:49:03 <benjamin_sonntag> andrea_it: can you ?
18:49:08 <andrea_it> ok
18:49:15 <garyfreder> andrea_it: on the agenda for next time?
18:49:18 <libby> if not now, mayebe post it later somewhere?
18:49:40 * DanCon notes we haven't agreed to have a "next time" yet
18:49:44 <andrea_it> gary: I can do it straight away, or let's put it in the agenda - how you folks prefer
18:49:47 <danbri> that'd be great, re worked example.
18:49:59 <tim-lap> (there exists a RDF spider - check out DAML.org)
18:50:30 <garyfreder> agenda is good for me
18:50:32 <libby> there are a few spiders about...one that picked up certain sorts of docs would be cool
18:50:34 <tim-lap> I'm interested what in CAP is more than just insert/modify/delete
18:51:00 <_joshua> presumably you'd be able to just go out and get all rdf things that are related to dates you are interested in
18:51:07 * danbri revisits agenda http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/2003/01/15/2003-01-15.html#1042646246.014378
18:51:14 <andrea_it> tim: not much really ;-)
18:51:17 <_joshua> Ooh, I could use Geo.Point and times and geourl to announce parties in spacetime!
18:51:29 <libby> :)
18:51:37 <benjamin_sonntag> tim-lap: There is a "schedule" command, and you can give multiple targets : one on your local calendar store, and other targets will be the attendee's Calendar Store.
18:51:42 <_joshua> what are the coordinates for your house, danbri?
18:51:42 <danbri>http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/
18:51:42 <dc_rdfig> I: http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/ from danbri
18:51:45 <andrea_it> no there's not
18:51:49 <tim-lap> I think you would trawl verything and the index the pages by what vocab they used, and then figure out what to use to solve a query.
18:52:00 <danbri> I:|RDFIG Geo workspace / vocab
18:52:00 <dc_rdfig> Titled item I.
18:52:02 <andrea_it> benjamin_sonntag where did you read about that?
18:52:08 <_joshua> yeah. well you'd need a big database for that of course
18:52:14 <danbri> I: re <_joshua> Ooh, I could use Geo.Point and times and geourl to announce parties in spacetime!
18:52:14 <dc_rdfig> Added comment I1.
18:52:15 <DanCon> re "more than just insert/modify/delete" I wonder about icalendar APIs in that way. I wanna link them from http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/ and study that aspect of them.
18:52:25 <_joshua> danbri: I should figure out how to trawl rdfspace and index things by some sort of naem
18:52:28 <_joshua> er, name
18:52:38 <benjamin_sonntag> maybe in this old cap draft... I cannot forget it (my poor 6000 lines of xml code...)
18:52:52 <_joshua> "the object referenced in some document http://..."
18:52:58 <DanCon> getting geo info into the flow of RSS stuff in the world seems cool (apropos of nothing)... i'd love to see RSS feeds projected on a map/calendar.
18:52:59 <_joshua> i guess sortof like the RDF equivalent of an Xpath but whatever
18:53:11 <andrea_it> tim: do you know iMIP / iTIP?
18:53:14 <_joshua> dancon: I can sortof do that, in reverse, right now
18:53:29 <andrea_it> tim: CAP is an iTIP binding, just as iMIP is
18:53:30 <tim-lap> andrea_it, no I don't
18:53:40 <tim-lap> Has it been chumped?
18:53:44 <danbri> Is there anyone here who is in a good position to describe (paragraph or 2) what CAP offers above basics of INSERT/MODIFY/DELETE...?
18:53:53 <danbri> ...er or iTIP, rather.
18:53:57 <DanCon> _joshua, yeah, I wanna play with that... put my travel/talks stuff (http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/events/) in your geo DB.
18:54:00 <_joshua> i would extract the coords pairs urls from rss and just plut the points
18:54:17 <andrea_it> iTIP is a transport independent way of conveying scheduling informations
18:54:23 * DanCon thinks danbri meant INSERT/UPDATE/DELETE, i.e. SQL vocabulary
18:54:24 <benjamin_sonntag> danbri: ACL / Group calendar managment.
18:54:24 <tim-lap>http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2447.txt
18:54:24 <dc_rdfig> J: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2447.txt from tim-lap
18:54:38 <danbri> People keep mentioning this, btw., since it has been a focus of some contention in the XML Protocol / Web Service discussions surrounding SOAP: the extent to which SOAP-based protcols might reinvent facilities already there in HTTP.
18:54:48 <tim-lap> J:|iCalendar Message-Based Interoperability Protocol
18:54:48 <dc_rdfig> Titled item J.
18:54:51 <libby> _joshua, interesting idea about indexing by name... see http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/discovery/2001/08/codepict/stats.html for some stats from my db
18:54:51 <andrea_it> like request a meeting, accept it, reschedule etc
18:54:57 <Ol> danbri: iTIP is basically a groupware invitation protocol proposal/accept|refuse/counter-proposition/... etc
18:54:58 * danbri nods re wrong words
18:55:08 <danbri> thanks Ol, that helps
18:55:16 <_joshua> nice drawings down there, libby :)
18:55:26 <danbri> could it be modeled with a state diagram for each conversation / negotiation?
18:55:32 <andrea_it> you could send that either via iMIP - which means, via email as an attachment
18:55:34 <andrea_it> or via CAP
18:55:37 <_joshua> so is there really no ? for XML:XPath :: RDF:?
18:55:43 <danbri> not yet, no.
18:55:47 <Ol> and CAP is the same thing in server space, thus with additional facilities like auth, queries, storage consideration, etc.
18:55:49 <LotR> maybe the reefknot bootstrap guide is a good thing to read as intro (reefknot.org/bootstrap-guide/)
18:56:06 <_joshua> You're kidding me.
18:56:07 <DanCon> I'm curious about ACL support in CAP... nothing stresses access control/trust models like calendaring, in my experience.
18:56:08 * _joshua explodes
18:56:17 <tim-lap> You can use N3 for that. It even has simple paths now.
18:56:18 <benjamin_sonntag> Ol: Yes, (sasl/tls) complex acl and transparent uid/gid managment
18:56:31 <andrea_it> dancon - yes, it's the most complex part IMO
18:56:35 <DanCon> I'd say N3 fills the XML:XPath :: RDF:? slot fairly well.
18:56:40 <benjamin_sonntag> DanCon: CAP defined a new text/vcalendar object : VCAR
18:56:42 <Ol> Yes, the reefknot bootstrap guide is a good overview
18:56:51 <_joshua> n3 terrifies me
18:56:56 <benjamin_sonntag> VCAR contains calendar data ACL
18:57:05 <DanCon> yes, N3 is scary stuff! 1/2 ;-)
18:57:33 <danbri> n3 is overpowered to be an xpath analog (fopl + quoting...)
18:57:34 * DanCon needs to study XQuery more to figure out how N3 should relate to it.
18:57:38 <andrea_it> I still think VCAR is not 100% perfect - not even close possibly - but we don't have time to fix it
18:57:46 <_joshua> I guess I could use a an id and refer to it as #id but still
18:57:47 <tim-lap> :me^cal:particpant!cal:date == dates of meetings of which i am a participant
18:57:49 <LotR> Ol: glad you like it :)
18:57:55 <Ol> :)
18:58:08 <danbri>http://www.w3.org/News/2003#item9
18:58:08 <dc_rdfig> K: http://www.w3.org/News/2003#item9 from danbri
18:58:19 <danbri> K:|Web Services Choreography Working Group Created
18:58:19 <dc_rdfig> Titled item K.
18:58:32 <LotR> andrea_it: CAP is on a fixed release schedule?
18:58:33 <tim-lap> Danbri, you think I should publish N3path separately?
18:58:41 <_joshua> Did XQuery even happen? I've never needed more than XPath
18:58:47 <benjamin_sonntag> For more info about CAP :
18:58:55 <andrea_it> dancon: basically, it allow you to grant / deny access to components based on a query
18:58:56 <benjamin_sonntag> J:http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-calsch-cap-09.txt|CAP Draft (updated regularly)
18:58:56 <dc_rdfig> Added comment J1.
18:59:15 <andrea_it> that is, access control is not tied to the objects it protects
18:59:17 <tim-lap> XQuery is wqhat happens when you take n3 and complicate it by adding order. 0.5 ;-)
18:59:26 <danbri> K:I'm not quite sure what this WG will do, but it sounds like it may be in the space that CAP etc lives in.
18:59:26 <dc_rdfig> Added comment K1.
18:59:26 <libby> timecheck: that's an hour: next item?
18:59:32 * maxf thought all the RDF query languages were what xpath was to xml but was apparently mistaken
18:59:55 <DanCon> F:[bootstrap guide|http://reefknot.sourceforge.net./bootstrap-guide/] is good, says Ol. covers access control, says [?]
18:59:55 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F2.
19:00:05 <danbri> tim-lap, not sure re n3 how to subset it, but yes, some more modest subset woudl be good.
19:00:07 <andrea_it> LotR: not really - but the powers-that-be would like to consider the next draft as ready for last call
19:00:20 <DanCon> no, you're right, max. N3 has an RDF query language. TimBL just gave an example.
19:00:21 <danbri> libby, can you summarise agenda options etc for remaining (how long?) time?
19:00:48 <libby> well, there's one about ical and moz interop
19:01:05 * DanCon refers danbri to C:
19:01:06 <danbri> K:see [WS Choreography WG charter|http://www.w3.org/2003/01/wscwg-charter] for more info.
19:01:07 <dc_rdfig> Added comment K2.
19:01:15 <LotR> F:quite old, thus possibly not accurate in it's sketchy CAP info
19:01:15 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F3.
19:01:19 <tim-lap> Ol, got time for a couple of iCal questions/wishlist?
19:01:22 * danbri saw C:, was thinking about time-squeeze.
19:01:23 <libby> the others are more about rdf and icalendar I think: multiple events in a calendar represemntation, test organisation
19:01:29 <LotR> F3:quite old, thus possibly not accurate in its sketchy CAP info
19:01:29 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment F3.
19:01:33 <danbri> I'd like to hear more about ical and moz interop, but don't have much to offer on it myself.
19:01:49 <libby> I was playign with the both, thoiught both v cool
19:01:52 <danbri> Progress re vocab would be good too.
19:02:00 <mikep> I've published my ical calendar and subscribed to it using the Moz calendar, so I could talk about them.
19:02:01 <libby> noticed timezone problem in moz export and import
19:02:07 * DanCon requests folks write apple:ical and ietf:ical or iCalendar or something; the ambiguity of "ical" is killing me
19:02:25 <LotR> DanCon: yes. bad apple.
19:02:25 <danbri> yup, sorry. i meant apple:ical
19:02:32 <libby> mikep, are gtehre interop tests you know of between the 2?
19:02:34 <tim-lap> I think ietf:iCalendar, no?
19:02:46 <garyfreder> iCalendar -> ics
19:02:52 <mikep> No tests that I know of, although writing a few of them would be a good idea.
19:03:09 <danbri> <libby> noticed timezone problem in moz export and import
19:03:09 <libby> I was having great fun creating in one and exporting into other etc
19:03:10 <mikep> There are timezone problems in Moz calendar for import / export (subscribe / publish)
19:03:17 <danbri> do you have a test case that exercises that?
19:03:23 <garyfreder> mikep / andrea_it are there any iCalendar test files
19:03:29 <tim-lap> I have a lot of test data but its not public -- the useual problem with PIM test data :-/
19:03:39 <LotR> there's a start of a set of minimal .ics files to test spec compliance in Net::ICal
19:03:48 <mikep> The other problems that I've seen are that apple:ical has problems with multiple VEVENTS in the file (bug filled)
19:03:59 <DanCon> pointer to bug report?
19:03:59 <libby> paul buhler said that libical had some...
19:04:05 <Ol> Multiple vevents or multiple vcalendars ?
19:04:06 <mikep> and that I think apple:ical publishes all day events as two day events ( a bug in apple:ical)
19:04:08 <andrea_it> gary: well, we have a regression suite in libical, but we don't have many test files yet
19:04:13 <libby> I thought that that was a moz bug?
19:04:17 <mikep> Sorry, multiple VCALENDARS.
19:04:21 <andrea_it> we should probably create one common repository of files
19:04:32 * tim-lap gets deja vu - didn't Ol provide a link last week to test data?
19:04:38 <danbri> or at least urls to these existing collections
19:04:45 <andrea_it> gary: you could talk to Pat about that - it would be in the best interest of the WG to have one
19:04:45 <Ol> tim: it was just one quick test case
19:04:55 <garyfreder> andrea_it: yes
19:05:03 <tim-lap> Last week i mentioned that bug, which we fix with a script, and I think was a bug with Moz, and s in their bugzilla as such.
19:05:18 <Ol> mikep: for the allday thing, I think we're in spec, we set to this behavior after checking with the ietf list
19:05:28 <libby> isnl;t it that moz uses one vcal per event?
19:05:29 <Ol> mikep: we can check this together later
19:05:31 <andrea_it> most apps have a problem with > 1 VCALENDARs in one file
19:05:34 <tim-lap> Also there was a problem with parsing line breaks in iCal, but iCal has been released twice since I found that and I haven't tested it again.
19:05:48 <DanCon> I'm happy to link our test/dev stuff (http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/test/ , http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/#dev) to other peers; e.g. http://www.gxsnmp.org/CVS/evolution/libical/test-data/
19:05:51 <libby> it seemed fine yesterday reading in moz files
19:05:54 <mikep> Ol: You may be right. I didn't do much investigation, I just noticed that I get paid 2 days a week. :)
19:05:58 <andrea_it> it's fixed in libical 0.24, by the way
19:06:04 <LotR> there's a public bugzilla for apple:ical??
19:06:08 <garyfreder> tim-lap: you thought the bug was in Mozilla - I think it's in appleiCal and plan on following up with Ol
19:06:19 <Ol> lotr: no, it's internal
19:06:29 <LotR> hmm, bummer
19:06:30 <Ol> lotr: but you can file bugs with bugreport.apple.com
19:06:35 <libby> so is there supposed to be one event per calenadr but maybe multiple calendars in a file?
19:06:51 <libby> or multiple events in a vcalendar and one vcalendar per file?
19:06:51 <mikep>http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=179985
19:06:52 <dc_rdfig> L: http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=179985 from mikep
19:07:08 <mikep> That's the bug with multiple VCALENDARS in one file not importing into applications.
19:07:25 <LotR> Ol: apparently not. I'm not an apple customer
19:07:30 <DanCon> L:|mozilla bug with multiple VCALENDARS in one file not importing into applications
19:07:30 <dc_rdfig> Titled item L.
19:07:39 <andrea_it> libby: multiple events in a vcalendar, multiple vcalendars per file
19:07:48 <libby> ok, thanks
19:08:11 <benjamin_sonntag> Note : about multiple or single vcalendar, there is also the VAgenda object that is equivalent to a folder that contains many VEvent, VTodo ...
19:08:20 <andrea_it> libby: the reason is that VEVENTs inside one VCALENDAR must have the same TARGET property
19:08:21 <Ol> lotr: I think it's just a free registration to the developer program, but if it's annoying, just mail me the problem, I'll enter those in the db
19:08:21 <benjamin_sonntag> Do moz & co. use VAgenda ?
19:08:33 <libby> benjamin_sonntag oh really?
19:08:36 <mikep> benjamin_sonntag: I don't think we do, no.
19:08:44 <andrea_it> benjamin: VAGENDA is CAP only
19:08:56 <libby> target property?
19:09:02 <andrea_it> libby: for iTIP
19:09:11 <andrea_it> and sorry I meant METHOD :(((
19:09:12 * DanCon doesn't recall VAgenda component; checks RFC2445...
19:09:13 <benjamin_sonntag> Yes, but why don't moz use VAgenda for its internal file storing ?
19:09:19 <libby> so what does a vcalendar represent?
19:09:27 <DanCon> "VAgenda" doesn't occur in http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2445.txt
19:09:35 <andrea_it> benjamin: because it would be illegal?
19:09:39 <LotR> DanCon: no, it's in CAP
19:09:39 <libby> is it some arbitrary collection of events?
19:09:40 <mikep> libby: An entire calendar, with multiple events in it.
19:09:40 <benjamin_sonntag> DanCon: VAgenda not in rfc2445, but in CAP Draft (addenda to iCal)
19:09:45 <andrea_it> libby yes
19:09:49 <andrea_it> mikep no
19:09:51 <libby> ok, thanks
19:09:51 <maxf> argh: http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=130910
19:09:58 <andrea_it> mikep: it's an arbitrary wrapper
19:10:02 <LotR> s/events/events,todos,journals/
19:10:09 <maxf> no timezone support ever in moz?
19:10:22 <libby> ever!
19:10:33 <DanCon> ? moz has great timezone support, in my experience.
19:10:37 <andrea_it> it may be your calendar, but may also only wrap a scheduling transaction
19:10:39 <mikep> That bug was from April.
19:10:46 <libby> danC, not importing, exporting
19:10:59 <maxf> DanCon, can I specify a timezone in an appointment?
19:11:04 <libby> - everything becomes UTC
19:11:21 <andrea_it> benjamin: VAGENDA canno appear in an iCalendar file, nor in a iTIP/iMIP message
19:11:34 <andrea_it> so it would make no sense to use it for internal data storage (IMHO)
19:11:41 <DanCon> hmm... I didn't use mozilla to compose events; just to browse them.
19:11:47 <LotR> Ol: so why doesn't apple:ical include vtimezones for the tzids it uses in the rest of the ics?
19:11:57 <DanCon> evolution has really nice UI for timezones... you click on a globe.
19:11:58 <andrea_it> if you want to keep multiple local agendas, just use several files
19:12:04 <Ol> lotr: that's true :(
19:12:04 <libby> so, if there were lots of ietf:icalendar testfiles, we could use them to generate rdf instead of generating our own
19:12:13 <mikep> http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=188095 is a bug about moz cal showing wrong times for published events.
19:12:14 <dc_rdfig> M: http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=188095 from mikep
19:12:24 <DanCon> yeah, Ol, what's with X-wrTimezone?
19:12:30 <libby> ok, maybe it was import apple:ical to moz trhat was the problem...
19:12:44 <LotR> Ol: I was asking *why* it was true :)
19:13:31 <maxf> (converting everything to UTC does not work with DST and repeating events for instance)
19:13:38 <Ol> oh, the X-WR-TIMEZONE thing is just a hint when publishing the calendar: this is the tz in which the timezone was created, and probably a good default preference for an serverside calendar viewer like .mac or phpmycalendar
19:14:16 <DanCon> libby, I'm not interested in any old collection of ietf:icalendar test files. I've seen bogus .ics files.
19:14:52 <andrea_it> dancon: what about a new collection of valid ics files ;-)
19:14:55 <libby> well test files wouldnt be bogus....
19:15:06 <tim-lap> Isn't the timezone relevant for a recurring appointment? When daylight savinsg change it makes a difference.
19:15:11 <benjamin_sonntag> Ol: please note that rfc says that in the "X-<corp>-<attr>" notation, <corp> MUST be at least 3 chars long...
19:15:27 <LotR> I was going to point to Net::ICal's test data, but cvs.sf.net seems to be down (or at least its web)
19:15:29 <maxf> tim-lap, yes.
19:16:04 <DanCon> which RFC has the bit about <corp> and >=3 characters?
19:16:21 <garyfreder> rfc2445
19:16:23 * danbri ouches re timezones and daylight savings and recurring events, glad he isn't implementing this stuff
19:16:24 <andrea_it> RFC2445
19:16:36 <Ol> benjamin: yes, I saw the message on ietf about that
19:16:56 <Ol> I filed a bug for that one
19:17:23 * maxf 's agenda is to convert Palm Datebk 5 format (w/ full tz support) to ical
19:17:24 <DanCon> which section of RFC2445 has the corp bit? I can't find it
19:17:35 <libby> Ol, can apple ical handle TZ daylight savings time changes?
19:17:37 <andrea_it> maxf: me too
19:18:06 <andrea_it> dancon: 4.1
19:18:11 <DanCon> max, I have code to get palm datebook to RDF, and some rules to get it to icalendar, and some python code to go to .ics, I think. Lots of bugs and no datebook5 timezone support yet, but I'd be happy to help.
19:18:12 <maxf> cool andrea_it. Tell me when you're finished ;)
19:18:14 <LotR> DanCon: somewhere at the start. where they discuss X-PROP
19:18:22 <andrea_it> look for vendorid
19:18:25 <Ol> libby: internally, yes
19:18:34 <libby> maxf, I 've beamed calendar items form my phone to my palm, makes me think internally icalendar or a subset
19:18:35 <Ol> libby: but we don't import VTIMEZONE data for now
19:18:40 * danbri still hoping to get icalendar out of his new Outlook setup, but not really had time to wrestle with it.
19:18:47 <libby> right, Ol, thanks
19:18:51 <maxf> DanCon, yes I have your stuff. Problem is more on the ietf:ical format side, whether TIMEZONE is actually used, for one.
19:19:10 * MarkB implemented RFC 2445 - wishes recurring events were specified with a script. runs off to the gym ....
19:19:20 <DanCon> ah; corp is called vendorid in http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2445.txt. Thanks, andrea_it
19:19:20 <maxf> libby, cool! you'll have to show me that next time we meet.
19:19:22 <libby> ouch
19:19:31 <libby> it's like magic!
19:19:44 * LotR wonders what MarkB means 'specified with a script'
19:19:56 <tim-lap> Evolution seems to handle timezones,a s it stores the timezone shifts for each tz in the calendar.
19:20:03 <Ol> lotr: including a virtual machine specification in 2445 ? :-)
19:20:07 <MarkB> turing complete - would have been easier to implement, nm that halting problem thing 8-)
19:20:23 * maxf notices that his IRC client makes 'RFCXXXX' a button which fires up mozilla :)
19:20:39 <LotR> recurrence isn't *that* hard to implement, is it?
19:20:46 <MarkB> yes
19:20:52 <maxf> exceptions, surely.
19:21:01 <libby> we should get some evolution people to come along some time
19:21:05 <MarkB> I've implemented vms before. recurring events are harder.
19:21:13 <Ol> well, the RFC model with multiple rrules, multiple exrules, multiple exdates/rdates, detached events is .. interesting.
19:21:41 <libby> I notice apple ical doesnt do exceptpons to rrules at the moment.
19:21:42 * maxf thinks of 'every third sunday of the month'. Tricky.
19:22:05 <libby> moz cal does but I didn;t test it
19:22:13 <Ol> libby: we do have exceptions to a recurrence rule, but no exceptions defined as a rule
19:22:18 <LotR> MarkB: well, I didn't do any of the work, but I've looked along closely while someone has been creating a recurrence engine, and it didn't seem *that* hard
19:22:27 <libby> oh, I didnt see tgah on the intereface Ol
19:22:36 <tim-lap> iCal also doens't allow "second and third monday" though it does allow "mondays and fridays"
19:22:40 <libby> could we talk a little about the rdf tests DanCon?
19:22:46 <Ol> libby: create a recurrence, select an event from that recurrence, and delete it
19:22:54 <libby> ah, I see
19:22:56 <DanCon> I can't see why not, libby
19:23:03 <libby> cool
19:23:10 <maxf> stuff like "second and third monday" is used for DST changes.
19:23:22 <LotR> the hard bit about recurrence is implementing the UI I think
19:23:47 <gk> Hmmm... exceptions to recurrence cld be tricky in RDF, methinks (sticking to monotonic semantics)
19:23:52 * DanCon has an appointment 2nd and 4th Thursdays of the week with somebody else here; has never managed to fit it into one record in any piece of software; uses one item for 2nd Thu, another for 4th thu.
19:24:31 * tim-lap goes off to cehck iCal occurrence deletion - didn't know it worked..... hmmm "This is the first event in a series of events. If you delete the first event, all occurrences in the series are also deleted. Do you want to delete all occurrences of this event?"
19:24:46 <maxf> DanCon, datebk 5
19:24:47 <LotR> 2nd and 4th thursdays of the *week*?
19:24:53 <Ol> tim: we have a special case for the very first event
19:24:55 <DanCon> phpht. of the month
19:25:07 <maxf> ah.
19:25:09 <DanCon> gk, log:notIncludes is your friend ;-)
19:25:11 * danbri waves to gk
19:25:17 <libby> DanCon, I just found myself generating lots of files and wondred whether to add them all in one go to the test directory. I wasn't sure how you were tracking what you'd used to generate the RDF
19:25:23 <LotR> Ol: why not just move the dtstart ahead?
19:25:25 <garyfreder> DanCon: 's example is interesting - can we express 2nd and 4th Thurs in rdf and have the rdf generate two events in iCalendar where needed?
19:25:34 <Ol> lotr: UI reasons
19:25:36 <DanCon> timbl, didn't you say you'd write up log:notIncludes, defaults, and exceptions for www-rdf-logic a while ago? I'd like to renew that request.
19:25:48 <Ol> mikep: do you have multiple rrules/exrules support in moz-cal ?
19:25:51 <gk> DanC, I'd like to an example -- I fear it may break the subgraph lemma
19:25:56 <MarkB> fwiw, it was the interaction of "until" with the by* stuff, particular byweekno, that sucked up lots of memory. because of order-of-ops, you have to keep the whole working calendar in memory until the end. i implemented it on a cell phone, hence the vm-would-have-been-easier comment
19:26:06 * LotR really wishes he had a mac just so he could look at apple:ical from time to time
19:26:23 <mikep> Moz calendar support multiple exception dates to events.
19:26:35 <DanCon> I always use ical2rdf.pl, libby. I think of that as defining the mapping. Do you have something else that maps .ics to .rdf?
19:26:37 * tim-lap points out LotR has a simple solution to the problem ;)
19:26:37 <mikep> When you add an event, you just select the dates that the event does *not* occur on.
19:26:54 <andrea_it> mikep: how much did you test recurrences? we know libical has some patological failures there
19:27:11 <LotR> tim-lap: hmm? which problem?
19:27:13 * MarkB runs off
19:27:16 <mikep> andrea_it: Not very well. Most of the recurrences we can do from moz cal work fine though.
19:27:27 <AaronSw> LotR, presumably the mac one
19:27:41 <DanCon> why does anybody pretend that anything other than a simple list of exception dates works, w.r.t. recurring events? i.e. what the palmpilot (and psion) does, no more, no less.
19:27:42 <libby> DanCon, nope
19:27:47 <LotR> I'm not an rdf hacker!
19:28:02 <DanCon> timbl switched in '89. to nextstep
19:28:23 <tim-lap> befroe Apple
19:28:33 * maxf has to go find food, and so waves bye
19:28:42 <AaronSw> "my name is tim berners-lee and i invented the web"
19:28:45 <libby> timecheck - we've had an hour and a half - schedule next meeting?
19:28:47 <DanCon> ciao, maxf. are we likely to see you next time?
19:28:50 <garyfreder> NeXTStep!!!!! is tht on the agenda?
19:28:54 <DanCon> yes, next meeting, let's...
19:28:57 <danbri> offtopic, but i wish the old srcs for timbl's browser v1 built on MacOS X
19:28:59 <maxf> DanCon, yeah. I'm on the list now.
19:29:01 <andrea_it> bye maxf
19:29:09 * danbri thinks next meeting time too
19:29:13 <libby> mye maxf
19:29:18 <tim-lap> I think that the iCaldendar vocabular would be well published at 2 conformance levels, one without any recurrence handling at all, for 80% of event publicatiuons.
19:29:34 <danbri> Easiest seems to be same time, same place (though wish it wasn't evening in UK).
19:29:45 <danbri> mornin' chaals
19:29:55 <chaalsMEL> morning dan...
19:30:03 <tim-lap> Ol, if you come across a NexT to OS-X Interface Builder converter, that would be inetresting.
19:30:08 <libby> yeah...at lest early eve...worse for the europeans
19:30:19 <LotR> tim-lap: heh. seems like this meeting is going to need a recur rule...
19:30:25 * chaalsMEL had hoped to finish off my thoughts on Hijri calendaring before this meeting and post them, but fell asleep instead
19:30:34 <DanCon> proposals to meet regularly in the future are in order..
19:30:34 <Ol> tim: I have an old next pizza box in the office, I'll check :)
19:30:44 <LotR> hijri?
19:30:51 <tim-lap> :) So far it has been arranged one at a time
19:31:11 <chaalsMEL> Islamic lunar calendar
19:31:16 <Ol> tim: I think that CAP even have something to say if the calendaring server handle recurrence expansion or not ...
19:31:28 <libby> I propose we meet regularly in this timeslot, noting exceptons to the recurrence rule as tehy occur
19:31:32 <DanCon> danbri's proposal is Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 18:00:00 UTC time http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?day=22&month=1&year=2003&hour=18&min=0&sec=0&p1=0
19:31:39 <DanCon> i.e. same bat time...
19:31:41 <andrea_it> Ol: something like that
19:31:41 <garyfreder> what's on the next agenda? andrea_it / benjamin_sonntag writing about CAP and ?
19:31:50 <tim-lap> Ahh .. so you can negotiate vocabularies. Very nice.
19:31:54 <andrea_it> gary: ok
19:31:55 <DanCon> I kinda like that, but I hae an appointment an hour later.
19:32:01 <tim-lap> Nice for client too
19:32:26 <DanCon> any 2nd for 1800Z Wed 22Jan? or alternative?
19:32:35 <tim-lap> "I am a poor cellphone, tell me what I am doing today but don't use recurrences"
19:32:44 <garyfreder> I'm talking to calsch folks about iCalendar test data
19:32:56 <andrea_it> tim: yes, there is negotiation of pretty much all that can differ between client and server
19:32:56 <AaronSw> i 2nd
19:33:00 <andrea_it> but
19:33:00 <Ol> somebody might be upset at the idea of writing a whole recurrence engine on a cell phone :)
19:33:06 <Ol> proposal is ok for me
19:33:10 <tim-lap> :)
19:33:21 <LotR> garyfreder: talking as in real-time?
19:33:28 <libby> agenda: does anyone have any RDF calendar stuff they'd like to talk about?
19:33:28 <andrea_it> recurrences are part of RFC2445 and there is no way we can take them away without a major release bump
19:33:31 <garyfreder> as in I'll email Pat
19:33:37 <tim-lap> Then again the cell phone may not have the RAM to store the occurrences, only the ROM for the horrible algorithm
19:34:03 <gk> Yes, I think recurrence is important. My only RDF cal work to date used them.
19:34:08 <benjamin_sonntag> tim-lap: Anyway, your poor cellphone should implement BEEP (poor rom...)
19:34:11 <Ol> andrea: thus the possibility of a 'small' client to ask for a calendar in 'expanded' form
19:34:12 <_joshua> You're really not planning to have a cellphone do RDF I think
19:34:20 <_joshua> did you guys look to see how SyncML handles this stuff?
19:34:22 <tim-lap> RFC2445 wouldn't get though W3C candidate Rec stage without a whole bunch of test cases and ideally a mathematical expression of the recurrence algo.
19:34:26 <andrea_it> the attribute in CAP is the to differentiate if recurrences are expanded at storage or retrieval time
19:34:35 <tim-lap> mm
19:34:50 <andrea_it> that's not 100% to me either, at this stage
19:34:50 <DanCon> I'm not sure about 22Jan 1800Z. I see a few others available; libby, if you think that's sufficient to call a meeting, it's your call.
19:35:23 <benjamin_sonntag> when you want. (geek's sentence.)
19:35:26 <andrea_it> Ol: yes, I'd love that too - but I'm not sure it's possible the way it's defined right now
19:35:31 * danbri wonders about getting zakim or other agenda management gadgets running in #rdfig before then.
19:35:42 * danbri could happily do it earlier in the day
19:35:50 <libby> can people make it in a weeks' time?
19:35:51 * DanCon is nervous WebOnt will be forever in CR ;-)
19:35:54 <garyfreder> an hour earlier?
19:35:55 <tim-lap> Does anyone feel the need for a phone bridge?
19:35:58 <gk> I hope to be available (if I don't forget again, if I get home in time)
19:35:58 <andrea_it> libbry yes
19:36:00 <libby> do we have sufficiet to talk about?
19:36:09 <tim-lap> There are much worse places than CR!
19:36:24 <DanCon> I can't think of any, timbl.
19:36:33 <gk> Would an agenda on the mailing list be a good idea?
19:36:38 <libby> I'm finding it quite difficult to follow in IRC, but we would have to have a more focused agenda
19:36:44 <DanCon> yes, gk; are you volunteering? ;-)
19:36:56 <libby> we did have one gk, but perhaps not flagged sufficiently
19:36:59 <LotR> libby: there's *a lot* on today's agenda that we didn't get to, isn't there?
19:37:14 <tim-lap> Who was chairing?
19:37:16 <libby> is there?
19:37:29 <garyfreder> I think all we really missed was talking about rdf-calendar more
19:37:29 * DanCon enjoys not having an agenda; nice contrast to my N hours of rigidly scheduled telcons per week, N>12
19:37:35 <libby> I think we talked a little about most things
19:37:37 <garyfreder> libby is in charge
19:37:42 <libby> ulp
19:37:43 <LotR> oh.
19:37:48 * tim-lap wonders how many corridor conversations there were this time
19:38:12 * libby not used to chairing in any format
19:38:18 <gk> danC, in principle OK, but I missed too much today so I don't know what's interesting folks.
19:38:19 <danbri> an irc chat often doesn't have the same sense of being organised as some phone/f2f chats...
19:38:27 * garyfreder wonders if I should tell everyone I had my yound teen wtch to see what work is like
19:38:28 <tim-lap> yes, there are good things to corridorconverations and free association.
19:38:32 <libby> I like seeing the conversations people have in this format
19:38:44 * DanCon is quite happy with this level of organization. the list of contacts alone was worth the price of admission.
19:38:52 <libby> it also depends on who can turn up
19:38:54 <LotR> you could play with +v to force organization :)
19:39:09 <libby> +v?
19:39:13 <danbri> perhaps those with a prefernce for more structured use of time could own sections of the agenda, have 10-20 mins ringfenced for progressing particular issue(s)?
19:39:19 <danbri> positive=+v
19:39:24 <danbri> ?
19:39:25 <garyfreder> I suggest we leave the next as is and see if we stay interesting or productive
19:39:31 <DanCon> don't go there, libby. voice control or something. i.e. you can only talk when The King says so.
19:39:32 <danbri> oh, 'voicing' in irc
19:39:32 <andrea_it> may I ask you all how much are these meeting going to focus on RDF
19:39:33 <libby> we can also use the www-rdf-calendar list to talk about thing related to RDF specifically
19:39:41 <andrea_it> vs calendaring and scheduling in general
19:39:42 <danbri> yup, i don't fancy that.
19:39:44 * tim-lap apologizes for rapitting on, thought LotR meant "verbose mode" ;-)
19:39:46 <libby> dancon heheh
19:40:02 <danbri> or Queen
19:40:06 <LotR> libby: for channel moderation. only people with +o (op) or +v(voice) can talk in a +m(moderated) channel
19:40:06 <libby> danbri, I like that idea
19:40:13 <andrea_it> I'm mean, it's fine for me to talk about CAP, but at the end of the day
19:40:18 <danbri> Queens being lady Kings, ontologically.
19:40:37 <libby> kings being manly queens rather
19:40:51 <andrea_it> if most of you are committed to RFC
19:40:51 <libby> I like danbri's idea
19:41:06 <andrea_it> then it's not very useful, is it
19:41:11 <tim-lap> I don't think you'll need the machien to enforce it, so long as you say what your expectations are at the beginning, or in eth agenda you make everyone rea.
19:41:29 <LotR> andrea_it: I'm here for the general talk, not the rdf specific bits
19:41:34 * danbri claps hands in an #rdfig chairly sort of a way. Only strong proposal i've seen so far is same time, same place, next week.
19:41:56 <libby> peopel can send suggestions about agenda items to the www-rdf-calendar list; I'll send around soemthing marked agenda; I'll put rough time limits on each item
19:42:04 <LotR> um, we
19:42:06 <dajobe> [meta] change the topic when you are done, guys. cheers
19:42:07 <gk> Rather than moderation, how'bout convention that messages are tagged with agendum number?
19:42:27 <tim-lap> That actually clashes for me but I'm not critical
19:42:37 <danbri> Tim, can you do 1hr earlier?
19:42:40 <LotR> 're discussing calendaring. why not send out an ietf:ical meeting request and have people respond to that?
19:42:42 <DanCon> hmm... use /topic to signal agenda changes?
19:42:53 <tim-lap> I can do 12:00 ET
19:42:57 * danbri likes that idea
19:43:06 <libby> I think we will talk about icalendar etc andrea_it - the aim is to get an RDF version of icalendar
19:43:15 <libby> 5pm GMT sounds good to me
19:43:15 <DanCon> so far, we've put itet:ical meeting descriptions in HTTP space for each meeting.
19:43:17 * danbri hastily adds 5 to get bristol time
19:43:23 <danbri> 5pm GMT -- seconded.
19:43:31 * danbri retracts 6pm GMT proposal.
19:43:36 <gk> I'll shoot for 5PM
19:43:36 <libby> DanCon? that any good for you?
19:43:38 <DanCon> e.g. http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/test/mtg.ics
19:43:50 <DanCon> yes, 1700Z is better than 1800 for me.
19:43:54 * chaalsMEL will send my hijri thouhts, but is unlikely to make it (5am local time doesn't mix well with late-night commitments)
19:44:03 <libby> everyone else? gary, andrea, mike, bbenjamin?
19:44:28 <tim-lap> It is very valuable having iCal and Moz represented IMHO
19:44:28 <TerryPayne> yup works for me
19:44:30 <garyfreder> I would like to see more rdf talk
19:44:34 <Ol> works for me
19:44:51 <andrea_it> sorry guys
19:44:51 <benjamin_sonntag> for me it's ok. I can prepare a documentation page from then on
19:44:51 <tim-lap> I wonder whether anyone kknows anyone who from evolution
19:44:52 <garyfreder> and make sure we let CAP/calsch etc folks know
19:44:59 <danbri> yup, I could go for more RDF content, without scaring away folk who don't live'n'breath the stuff.
19:45:00 <andrea_it> 5PM GMY is fine
19:45:01 <garyfreder> and an our earlier is ok
19:45:08 <andrea_it> s/GMY/GMT/
19:45:21 <tim-lap> 17Z
19:45:23 <libby> we could schdule some time
19:45:25 <LotR> the evolution people are in #evolution on irc.gnome.org
19:45:29 <DanCon> 1700Z
19:45:31 <libby> how long for the meeting?
19:45:36 <garyfreder> hour
19:45:37 <DanCon> 90min?
19:45:47 <danbri> Okay, can someone write that out in preferred date/time format and declare scheduling victory re next week?
19:45:58 <DanCon> yes, danbri, someone can.
19:46:07 <tim-lap> 90 minutes is more reaistic - though i can't personlly do it that week (occurrence)
19:46:07 <libby> I'll send around later - that ok?
19:46:33 <libby> maybe we can schedule 60 mins o stuff and then continue with things that come up
19:46:36 * DanCon is happy for libby to send a meeting call later
19:46:42 <danbri> Yup, 90min seems good, though agenda might ack that some folk will go after 60 mins; so we could do date of next meeting earlier in the timeslot next time.
19:46:56 <DanCon> yes, 60 min + 30min contingency
19:46:59 * danbri always wondered who 'somebody' was; in this case it's libby.
19:47:02 <danbri> thanks lib
19:47:09 <libby> no prob
19:47:27 <danbri> Adjourned?
19:47:28 * libby gets toplay with apple ical and moz some more
19:47:40 <libby> yep
19:47:43 <LotR> heh
19:47:44 <libby> thanks everyone
19:47:46 <danbri> ----------------------------------------
19:47:50 <garyfreder> thanks all
19:47:51 <Ol> Thanks, bye
19:48:02 <danbri> can whoever remembered the voodoo for /topic changing put it back? thanks!
19:48:09 <danbri> thanks for coming everyone :)
19:48:15 <libby> moz people, I know asked before, but are we getting a mac os x version?
19:48:17 <DanCon> DanCon has changed the topic to: to what? http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/
19:48:20 <tim-lap> Thanks libby!
19:48:33 <gk> Bye all, sorry I missed most of the chat
19:48:50 <libby> thanks gk, tim_lap
19:48:51 <danbri> 24x7 RDF and Semantic Web chat, see http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/
19:48:54 <DanCon> DanCon has changed the topic to: RDF and Semantic Web Hacking party, 24x7 http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/
19:49:00 <danbri> that'll do
19:49:02 * tim-lap is happy OSX now comes with a X11 from Apple itself with shared window manager and clipboard
19:49:03 <danbri> ta
19:49:18 <benjamin_sonntag> cu
19:49:24 <DanCon> ooh.. shared clipboard? that's 90% of the battle.
19:49:25 <libby> bye benjamin, thanks
19:49:40 <DanCon> win4lin is pretty worthless for lack of shared clipboard
19:49:40 <andrea_it> bye
19:49:44 <Ol> libby: I succeeded in compiling a moz-cal from scratch but had problems reproducing this wonderful experience :)
19:49:51 <libby> bye andrea thanks for coming
19:50:08 <libby> realy? I wondreed about trying that, but didn;lt....
19:50:09 <andrea_it> bye to all who's leaving now I meant (I wasn't paying much attention ;-)
19:50:16 <gk> Shared clipboard? It's crude but I use a text editor that detects remote changes and says "shall I reload"...
19:50:16 <libby> heheh
19:51:12 <_joshua> Dancon: synergy2.sourceforge.com
19:51:22 <_joshua> distributed network-based clipboard
19:51:36 <AaronSw> hm, http://www.discover.com/feb_03/feattech.html reminds me of some HP and accessible planet stuff
19:52:06 <andrea_it> so who's still here?
19:53:11 * danbri here, but busy configuring a weblog installation
19:53:36 <LotR> andrea_it: maybe we should take this elsewhere, but why are stored vqueries so important to you?
19:53:57 * danbri happy hearing about it here -- pls continue!
19:54:25 <andrea_it> lotr: well
19:55:01 <andrea_it> in part, most of my objections and proposals on that topic were not strictly out of immediate needs
19:55:35 <andrea_it> rather, I was trying to keep the way open for lightweight clients
19:56:20 <andrea_it> I mean: what's the point in having stored queries at all, if you can't dpo anything with them?
19:57:05 <LotR> yes, but you also seemed against taking them out of CAP altogether
19:57:07 <andrea_it> actually, my main argument was about whether stored queries need to be expressed in CAP-QL or not
19:57:47 <andrea_it> lotr: that may be, I don't remember fighting over that but may be
19:58:04 <andrea_it> lotr: in the end I agreed to leave them out, anyway
19:58:33 <Ol> bye all
19:58:40 <andrea_it> lotr: stored queries are interesting to me because my job is to write servers, not clients
19:58:40 <libby> bye Ol, thanks!
19:58:43 * danbri waves
19:58:43 <LotR> oh, they are completely out now? /me didn't keep up till the end
19:58:45 <andrea_it> bye Ol
19:59:00 <DanCon> logger, pointer?
19:59:00 <DanCon> See http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2003-01-15#T19-59-00
20:00:36 * danbri tentatively mentions http://esw.w3.org/mt/esw/
20:00:45 <danbri> ...new Movable Type weblog
20:00:47 <andrea_it> our business model is to sell service; the customer can provide his own client
20:00:55 <danbri> ...nothing there yet
20:01:14 <andrea_it> or he can use one we provide (think IMAP + webmail)
20:01:20 <LotR> andrea_it: 'us' being?
20:01:54 <andrea_it> I.Net spa, which is part of British Telecom - Ignite
20:03:00 <LotR> so an italian ISP?
20:03:03 <andrea_it> I already wrote some examples on the list. think about a lightweight web frontend which repeatedly sends the same queries
20:03:21 <andrea_it> why should the server reparse them all the time?
20:03:41 <andrea_it> well marketing people wouldn
20:03:41 <LotR> andrea_it: oh, I'm not against stored queries
20:04:04 <LotR> (damn quote being too close to enter :)
20:04:24 <andrea_it> wouldn't call us an ISP, in fact we sell services to every relevant ISP / governemnt agency / bank /stock exchange in italy and europe
20:04:41 <LotR> ah, ok
20:05:34 <libby> C:next meetin [5pm UTC|http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?day=22&month=1&year=2003&hour=17&min=0&sec=0&p1=0]
20:05:34 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C9.
20:05:46 <andrea_it> anyway, right now I think we still have some bad things in the draft which are much more important
20:05:59 <libby> C9:next meeting [5pm UTC|http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?day=22&month=1&year=2003&hour=17&min=0&sec=0&p1=0]
20:05:59 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment C9.
20:06:32 <andrea_it> the transaction model is fundamentally broken, for instance
20:07:24 <LotR> andrea_it: I haven't been following the list as closely as I wish, especially lately
20:08:57 <andrea_it> well, the issues have been there forever I'm afraid...
20:10:08 <andrea_it> anyway, I'm afraid I'm running out of time and will have to show my management something - so I won't have much time left for the list
20:10:23 <andrea_it> by the way
20:11:03 <andrea_it> wrong window sorry ;-)
20:11:39 <andrea_it> ok guess it's dinner time already
20:11:53 <andrea_it> see you guys
20:11:55 <LotR> bon appetit
20:12:14 <LotR> or bueno appetito *guessing*
20:12:47 <LotR> close! :)
20:14:12 <libby> C9:next meeting [5pm UTC Wednesday 22nd January 2003|http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?day=22&month=1&year=2003&hour=17&min=0&sec=0&p1=0]
20:14:12 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment C9.
20:15:45 * LotR waits for the ietf:ical ;)
20:17:18 <libby> cheers Lotr...did you find the chat interesting?
20:17:32 <danbri> libby, how the weblogging?
20:17:39 <libby> done...
20:17:43 <LotR> yeah, it was ok
20:17:54 <libby> where's my tea?
20:17:54 <danbri> can you hit 'rebuild site'?
20:18:02 <LotR> we didn't discuss that much I think
20:18:13 <libby> what did you want to discuss?
20:19:15 <LotR> libby: I didn't have any topics I wanted to discuss really
20:19:48 <LotR> libby: maybe it's just because there was a lot of stuff I already knew about
20:20:47 <libby> yeah. have you been working on icalendar for a long time?
20:22:06 <libby> I gues a whole new set of people trying to get to ggrips with it all is a pain
20:22:20 <LotR> well, not continuously, but I got involved in reefknot beginning of 2001 or so
20:23:06 <danbri> libby, your cal writeup shows now: http://esw.w3.org/mt/esw/
20:23:15 <libby> yep
20:23:47 <libby> should add soem stuff about next agenda really
20:24:23 <libby> lotr, what happened with reefknot? I heard good stuuf about it
20:25:15 <LotR> too few people hacking and too many people saying what to do
20:26:21 <libby> :(
20:26:25 * LotR got fed up, but recently started privately hacking on Net::ICal again
20:26:42 <akuchlin> Tragedy of the Town Council.
20:39:30 * LotR got fed up, but recently started privately hacking on Net::ICal again - that's cool
20:44:43 <LotR> libby: and someone else is working on recurrence stuff (based on an infinite set logic module), so I'm quite happy about it again :)
20:46:06 <danbri> oooh :)
20:52:45 <sethl> what does infinite set logic module mean?
20:55:10 <LotR> see Set::Infinite on CPAN
20:55:45 <sethl> right... thanks!
20:55:53 <LotR> and Date::Set for how it's used with dates/recurrence
20:56:06 <sethl> you answered my next question
20:56:23 <LotR> warning: they have sketchy documentation
20:56:34 <sethl> thanks... this schedule/calendar work is very relevent to our project, so it's interesting research
20:56:50 <LotR> 'our project' being?
20:57:02 <sethl> the concept of a Schedule (or block of time, reoccurring or not) is all over the place
20:57:11 <sethl> out project - Access Control system
20:57:25 <sethl> physical access control of buildings (by swiping cards, etc)
20:57:42 <LotR> ah
20:58:02 <sethl> so, questions like "when can I get in door" or "how often should door unlock itself" are all over the place
20:58:28 <LotR> *nod*
20:58:44 <sethl> we got walking the permissions/groups graphs down (using lots of log:implies)... now we have to tie in schedules, and then we'll be cookin
20:59:34 <danbri> sethl, do you have url pointer for more info on this work?
21:00:18 <sethl> uh... nothing public. I wish. I hate developing in black hole. I'm going to try to get our RDF schemas out for all, in case it's useful (and to get feedback, of which I'm sure I'll need plenty)
21:00:59 <sethl> it's a "company IP" thing... blech. it'll all change when project is done, but now is the crucial time it needs to be out there
21:01:59 <sethl> my dream is to do presentation at a conference... "how to make it all Go in system that has to make money" :)
21:42:46 <libby> hey jim
21:45:07 <JibberJim> hey libby
21:46:36 <JibberJim> good calendar meeting?
21:56:46 <DanConn> oh for rdf:nodeID support in cwm...
21:56:52 * DanConn is tired of <log:forSome rdf:resource="#_g64"/>
21:57:31 <sandro> Your greater desire is for it in input or output?
21:58:00 <DanConn> I can't imagine it being useful in one place without the other.
21:58:05 <JibberJim> I'm sure patches would be gladly accepted :-)
21:58:27 <sandro> If you're always authoring in n3, you only need it in the output stage.
21:58:40 <DanConn> it's a backwards-incompatible syntax change. I didn't realize how bad the incompatibility was until months after we made the decision.
21:58:58 <DanConn> I'm not always authoring in N3.
22:00:49 <rhoads> What is the difference between "triples" and "N-triples". Quick answer or pointer to doc would be fine.
22:02:05 <dajobe> N-Triples is a syntax
22:02:07 <dajobe> I edit it
22:02:16 <dajobe> it allows you to write RDF graphs
22:02:20 <dajobe> which are made from triples
22:05:46 <libby> yeah, not so bad Jim
22:05:53 <libby> thanks
22:09:52 <libby> where's the best link to N-triple dajobe?
22:10:05 <dajobe>http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-testcases/#ntriples
22:10:05 <dc_rdfig> N: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-testcases/#ntriples from dajobe
22:10:08 <dajobe> N:|N-Triples
22:10:08 <dc_rdfig> Titled item N.
22:10:27 <dajobe> N:#1 search on google, for "N-Triples" ;)
22:10:28 <dc_rdfig> Added comment N1.
22:10:40 <libby> ah, I was looking for N-triple!
22:10:46 <libby> cheers dajobe
22:11:27 <rhoads> Got it. Thanks.
23:17:08 <mdupont>http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2003-01/msg00726.html
23:17:08 <dc_rdfig> O: http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2003-01/msg00726.html from mdupont
23:17:28 <mdupont> O:|GCC Introspector calling for testing of alpha 0.4
23:17:28 <dc_rdfig> Titled item O.
23:26:45 <bd4242> bd4242 is now known as BernardD
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