Semantic Web Interest Group IRC Chat Logs for 2003-02-05

00:41:03 <danbri>http://rdfweb.org/rweb/rss/un-news

00:41:19 <danbri> hm no bot

00:41:33 <danbri> that's a scraped newsfeed from the UN website; just press releases for now.

00:59:33 <sandro-> sandro- is now known as sandro

01:20:34 <soccos|away> soccos|away is now known as soccos

01:51:11 <soccos> soccos is now known as soc|away

03:23:16 <sethl> what would you say is the most actively used RDF query language out there? any votes?

03:25:44 <sandro> I get the feeling it's Squish/RDQL, but I have no real data. Of course some (like algea) are used very heavily by a busy system (the W3C web server), but are not used by many different people.

03:26:07 * sethl goes off to check connection between algea and w3 server

03:26:10 <sethl> thanks sandro!

03:26:26 <sethl> btw how goes the debate on URI semantics and rdf?

03:26:28 <sandro> (it might be an overstatement re: algae. I think the server itself just uses an extracted cache, for performance reasons.)

03:26:42 <sandro> I have no idea what you're talking about. :-]

03:27:04 <sethl> lost hope? :)

03:28:14 <sandro> Yeah.

03:28:23 <sandro> And it's not that important.

03:29:10 <sethl> for better or for worse, I'd advocate getting tools out there and see what happens. Seemed to work ok for the web in general.

03:29:46 <sandro> Yeah; I'm definitely moving back to coding mode and much happier for it. (well, I'm happy talking with people when it's getting somewhere, but not when it's not.)

03:31:18 <sethl> I hear ya. While there is value in trying to figure it all out now (and I don't believe it's cycles wasted), I think trying to constrain what a URI points to would may a layman's brain hurt.

03:32:45 <sethl> I'm trying my hand at writing a RDQL implementation in C w/ redland

03:32:56 <sandro> Au contraire, I think saying <http://sun.example.org> *is* the sun instead of is a web page about the sun will definitely make a layman's (and programmer's) brain hurt.

03:33:13 <sandro> There have been a couple RDQL implementations, but yeah, sounds cool.

03:33:30 <sethl> got an implementation working in Java (even though jena has one) to see if I could do it

03:33:58 <sethl> rdql in C? I searched but didn't see one, I'll look again

03:34:04 <sandro> Excellent.

03:34:37 <sethl> I have a forward chaining reasoner working in java, as well. I wish I knew C half as much as I knew java.

03:34:39 <sandro> I heard there were four RDQL implementations (look for a message to or from eric miller on rdf-interest), but I don't know if any were in C.

03:34:51 <sandro> Why do you want to do it in C?

03:35:05 <sethl> our deployment platform is C... a single board linux 'puter.

03:35:16 <sethl> not much space for python, or java, etc.

03:35:36 <sethl> I'm getting my flex/bison on.

03:35:49 <sandro> I've heard arguments that python is actually very small. But yeah. I love C.

03:36:20 <sethl> it's fun to move from java to C. You get to learn where some of your roots are. :)

03:36:23 <sandro> I'm trying hard not to do an RDF/XML parser in flex/bison. (I think it'd be a lot of fun, but it's probably not a priority.)

03:36:58 <sethl> nah... we have parsers and triple engines. Time to work on inferencing, searching, and *gasp* trust.

03:37:28 <sandro> I kind of learned them in order (machine language, assembly language, C, ...., Java, ...) so it's just like homecoming.

03:37:43 <sethl> hehe I'm going backwards... devolving?

03:37:53 <sandro> Yeah. Do you have room for XSB?

03:38:03 <sethl> ?

03:38:55 <sethl> hehe now I'm not going to get any sleep.

03:39:00 <sandro> Are you familiar with XSB? Some of us consider it the inference engine of choice.

03:39:18 <sandro> ( http://xsb.sourceforge.net/ )

03:39:27 <sethl> huh, I applied to stony brook (I think)

03:39:53 <sandro> Anyway, I better run. Nice chattin'

03:39:59 <sethl> yeah, take care!

04:43:30 <DanC-AIM> Surgery went well.

04:47:13 <sandro> What happens now?

04:59:29 <DanC-AIM> Um.. I have a bigger splint/cast on

04:59:57 <DanC-AIM> I gather there are pins holding the bone in place

05:00:33 <DanC-AIM> I asked about flying. Dr said ok.

05:01:18 <DanC-AIM> Not sure whether that's good news ot not. ;-)

05:03:35 <DanC-AIM> Plan to see a ducks hockey game with an pld friend on Fri, so I guess it's good.

05:06:30 <sandro> And the pins were necessary for it to heal right, or just help it heal/be usable faster?

05:08:14 <DanC-AIM> Heal right

05:08:31 <sandro> Why did they change their minds about that?

05:08:50 <DanC-AIM> Ligaments/muscles pull wrong way?

05:08:59 <DanC-AIM> Change minds?

05:09:32 <sandro> I had the impression they sent you home monday night, and then tuesday afternoon surgerey popped up.

05:09:47 <DanC-AIM> ER doc sent me to hand specialist, who advised and did surgery

05:10:02 <sandro> Ah.

05:12:06 <DanC-AIM> Kinda nifty that he fit me in today

05:12:16 <sandro> Yeah....

05:12:37 <sandro> Did he care that you typed for a living (as it were)?

05:21:05 <sandro> g'night

05:26:48 <DanC-AIM> byebye

07:17:48 <zoyd> hi

07:23:06 <mdupont> hi

07:24:39 <zoyd> is there a XML schema for something like emails ?

07:25:01 <zoyd> <subject><message> kind of thing.

07:25:29 <mdupont> hmm

07:25:40 <mdupont> i saw a rfc for that on the rdfig

07:25:44 <mdupont> but dont know exactly

07:25:56 <mdupont> i think it was about metadata about mails

07:26:22 * zoyd googles for metadata for emails

07:27:26 <zoyd> I'm toying with the idea of using a URI like somedomain.com/user to accept emails/messages.

07:27:47 <zoyd> over HTTP in XML.

07:28:34 <mdupont> like a REST

07:28:39 <zoyd> yes.

07:28:47 <mdupont> cool

07:29:02 <mdupont> i am working on rdf representation of c,c++ and java

07:30:30 <zoyd> so, are the people here in rdfig generally pro-REST ?

07:31:42 <mdupont> i think so

07:31:53 <mdupont> but i am just a newbie

10:56:23 * danbri_ is pro-REST

11:00:01 * mortenf_ is pro-SLEEP

11:47:46 <danbri_> danc had some schema for emails in progress, but i believe it's unfinished

11:48:11 * danbri_ realises he is reponding to a comment from some hours ago

11:49:33 <JibberJim> There's loads of emails found in my crawl, I wrote a rule to exclude the urls I think.

11:50:30 <JibberJim> e.g http://xmlns.filsa.org/metamail/0.1/#From

12:16:14 <danbri_> danbri_ is now known as danbri

15:46:11 <danbri>http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/reports/open_demonstrators/hp-requirements-specification.html

15:49:00 * mattb comes to restart the chump

15:49:34 <danbri> thanks mattb!

15:50:06 <mattb> router problems last night

15:50:11 <mattb> usually survives them, oh well

15:50:34 <danbri>http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/reports/open_demonstrators/hp-requirements-specification.html

15:50:34 <dc_rdfig> A: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/reports/open_demonstrators/hp-requirements-specification.html from danbri

15:50:54 <danbri> A:|SWAD-Europe: Semantic Blogging and Bibliographies - requirements spec

15:50:54 <dc_rdfig> Titled item A.

15:51:12 <danbri> A:From HP Labs SW team

15:51:13 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A1.

15:52:36 <DanC> hi danbri

15:53:03 <danbri> hi there

15:53:06 <danbri> how's the finger?

15:53:13 <DanC> numb.

15:53:34 * danbri supposes that's better than some other options, but cringes for you anyway

15:53:36 <DanC> that's normal at this point after surgery, they just told me.

15:53:56 * DanC packing for tag ftf

15:54:14 * danbri installing Bugzilla locally, to learn the ropes

15:54:33 <DanC> still interested in syncing re esw... learning a bit here and there.

15:54:56 <danbri> yeah, me too. I was just feeling on top of things last week, then lost a day+ sick this week...

15:55:03 <libby> what did you do to your thumb DanC?

15:55:10 <danbri> I've an annual report summary to write, that might provide a nice way in...

15:55:17 <DanC> index finger

15:55:33 <libby> ouch

15:55:54 <DanC> photos, taken w WearableGizmo in ER: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2003Feb/0008.html

15:56:21 <DanC> bummer logger was disconnected at the time. I passed the time chatting here.

15:56:25 <libby> I didnt realise wearable gizmo yook phgotos. cool

15:56:44 <libby> ouchy

15:56:47 <DanC> hey, I'm the one w/1 hand! ;-)

15:57:37 * libby cant type even with 2

15:57:52 * libby been working on java ical2rdf thing...getting somewhere...

15:58:19 <libby> lookslike turnout to calendar meeting will be low today though

16:03:37 <DanC> today? oh yeah... color me "at risk"

16:06:15 <JibberJim> There was a DarkPenguin here yesterday who said he/she/it was coming along.

16:07:17 <DarkPenguin> Yeah.

16:07:22 <DarkPenguin> He.

16:07:31 <DarkPenguin> Ronan.

16:07:39 <DarkPenguin> Hello all

16:42:56 <LotR> wow, quiet

16:49:06 <DanC> DanC has changed the topic to: RDF Calendar @ 1700Z http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/

16:49:35 * LotR wonders if there's an agenda

16:50:27 <DanC> "I'll send around an agenda tomorrow" -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-calendar/2003Feb/0000.html

16:50:38 <LotR> yeah, read that :)

16:51:05 <DanC> we haven't found a groove w.r.t. agendas yet, I don't think.

16:51:18 <LotR> *nod*

16:51:35 * DanC continues packing...

16:52:10 <LotR> for a trip or are you moving?

16:52:37 <DanC> [[ 6-7 Feb 2003 Irvine, CA

16:52:37 <DanC> Technical Architecture group ftf. flight/itinerary map, brief itinerary, itin.rdf, and other trip stuff ]] -- http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/

16:53:08 <LotR> ah

16:58:23 * danbri waves

16:58:46 * libby waves

16:58:50 * LotR *yawns*

16:59:09 * libby worries that noone wants to talk about calendars today...

16:59:52 <libby> sorry, there's no agenda, because noone wants to talk about anything

16:59:53 <LotR> libby: why else would I be here? :)

16:59:57 <libby> :)

17:00:04 <libby> you and I can talk then LotR :)

17:00:40 <danbri> you did allude to an agenda... did you have in mind anything in particular as being a priority for discussion?

17:00:51 <danbri> I missed the last meeting, any followup-ish stuff?

17:01:17 <libby> hm,. I hoped someone woudl pipe up

17:01:29 <libby> ...but I sent around the reminder rather late

17:01:30 <danbri> Hi Ol

17:01:32 <libby> hey Ol

17:01:51 <Ol> Hi

17:02:01 <libby> I have been hacking on java iaclendar to RDF stuff so I would liek to ask DanC a couple of fairly small things

17:02:21 <LotR> hey Ol

17:02:34 <libby> GaryF and Terry can't make it; DanC is 'at risk"

17:02:50 <LotR> Ol: you were going to ask ietf-calendar something last time. I don't think I saw that come by yet tho

17:03:00 <Ol> LoTR: yes, relative URL testing

17:03:13 <libby> I gk

17:03:16 <libby> hi gk

17:03:22 <gk> Hi Libby

17:03:57 <Ol> wanted to do some interop testing before raising that to the wg, another project took most of my times, I'm going to post that this week

17:03:59 <LotR> last meeting had some agenda that we didn't get to..

17:04:21 <LotR> Ol: ah, ok

17:04:28 <Ol> for the same timing problem, I won't be able to attend the whole meeting today, I think :-(

17:04:37 * DanC is packing for a trip, with one hand

17:04:54 * danbri is making up for losing 1+day off sick, with both hands

17:05:05 <libby> sorry for not be quite up to speed here - 2 days off and that's everything behind

17:05:23 * LotR wonders if anyone read his recur doc thingie yet (I just put up an updated version)

17:05:55 <danbri> So just as a minor cal brain dump, I just wanted to mention that the cataloguing of opening hours for shops seems to me to be a great use case for RDF + calendaring...

17:06:22 <libby> sorry LotR, not in any detail yet

17:06:24 <gk> That would require recurrence forms, no?

17:06:35 <Ol> lotr: yes, I read it, and the 'list of issues' summary of ietf-cal is very interesting

17:06:38 * eikeon wonder what timezone corresponds to Z... choosing from a list by country/city -- or if there is not a single timezone that always is Z

17:06:39 <danbri> it could/should be done that way, yup.

17:06:51 <Ol> eikon: Z is just UTC

17:07:21 <LotR> Ol: there's more to come there

17:07:22 * eikeon is looking to change timezone on desktop :)

17:07:47 <LotR> ick, horrid lag

17:07:59 <amy> max sends his regrets, he's attending a conference

17:08:22 <Ol> lotr: I was thinking about something when reading your tutorial.. mh

17:08:27 <libby> last time we didn;t talk about pathcross, travel schedules (DanC) recurrence (gk)

17:08:32 <libby> thanks amy - hi

17:08:36 <amy> hi libby

17:08:37 <Ol> oh yes, maybe something about recurrence-id stuff

17:08:53 <gk> DanBri, FWIW DarkPenguin is expecting to convert the cal stuff I did for network access control to the new schema, which also uses recurrence forms

17:09:23 * DanC reviews SWAD-EU project mgmt calendar stuff... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-calendar/2003Jan/0005.html

17:09:24 <danbri> gk, that's interesting, thanks for the info.

17:09:31 <libby> nice one!, who is the mysterious darkpenguin?

17:09:39 <gk> As for talking about recurrence forms, maybe more productive to wait till we've some data to look at?

17:09:42 <DarkPenguin> Ronan

17:09:46 * danbri waves to amy

17:09:54 <libby> hi ronan

17:09:54 <amy> hi Danbri

17:10:01 <gk> Libby, if I said nothing to do with me, I'd be lying on several counts ;-)

17:10:02 <DarkPenguin> HI Libby

17:10:07 * JibberJim is interested in path-cross travel schedules

17:10:10 <LotR> ol: there's stuff on that in the archive too, yes

17:10:26 <DanC> where's the resulting RSS+events, liby/danbri?

17:10:38 * danbri looks to libby

17:10:50 <libby> the generated stuff? hang on a sec

17:10:59 <LotR> gk: you mean data in rdf form?

17:11:32 <gk> Essentially, yes (we tend to use N3 for raw data)

17:12:17 <libby> erk, my demo is down, hang on

17:12:38 * eikeon finally spots "use UTC" on preference panel for clock :)

17:15:05 * gk checks email for messages about this conference

17:17:00 <libby> hm, this _should_ be the events data as RSS: http://www.w3.org/2000/06/webdata/xslt?xslfile=http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/events/home2rss.xsl&xmlfile=http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/events/&Base=http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/events/

17:17:19 <DanC> libby, pls check that swad-eu mgmt calendar RDF data into CVS. It's ok to have the "static" copy lag by a week or so, but having it not online at all is a real downer.

17:17:50 <libby> sorry DanC, yeah, it sucks. there isn;t a static copy of much of it though...

17:18:00 <DanC> is there a periodic meeting for reviewing http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/events/

17:18:02 <DanC> ?

17:18:19 <libby> we have management meetings and add stuff to the top of it.

17:18:26 <gk> My browser completely fails on events data (or any RDF served as XML rather than text) :-(

17:18:28 <danbri> we're in process of arranging for a telecon; currently no fixed meeting schedule beyond quarterly management stuff

17:18:34 * DanC browses http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-esw/2003Jan/thread.html

17:18:58 <DanC> "...quarterly..." is responsive to my q, danbri.

17:19:03 <libby> also I have a conferences version,: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/200211/swconferences/events1.html

17:19:25 <LotR> look at the source :)

17:19:56 <DanC> let's see... http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/events/ doesn't log:include work package deadlines and such, does it?

17:20:01 * amy notes correction, for W3C Technical Plenary in March, contact should be: tpregister@w3.org please

17:20:09 <amy> from conferences page

17:20:17 * DanC hopes it's OK to use this time to catch up on ESW stuff

17:20:29 <libby> thanks amy

17:20:51 <libby> DanC, we have some other stuff about deadlines, but it's very undocumented

17:21:51 <Ol> libby: about the test cases

17:21:55 <DanC> undcocumented? oh... you mean how you maintain it? that doesn't bother me... I just want the data. This seems to be it: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/plan/workplan.html

17:22:06 <DanC> is thar in RDF anywhere?

17:22:34 <Ol> I do have some data, I'm currently commenting and sorting what we have from our test suites

17:22:53 <Ol> we just don't want to contribute a whole mess of raw ics :)

17:23:31 <libby> there's some stuff there: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/plan/workpackages/live/ - see notes art the bottom

17:23:44 <LotR> Ol: I'd be happy to see just the raw ics :)

17:23:54 <danbri> Ol, that sounds pretty useful (getting some test cases... even if a little raw)

17:24:04 <libby> yes polease ol

17:24:53 <libby> DanC, here: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/plan/workpackages/live/rdf/

17:25:22 <libby> Ol, a mess is fine, but commenting and sortin is great too

17:26:05 <DanC> live/rdf... spiffy!

17:26:24 <DanC> pm:realDateDue="2002-12-28" and such...

17:27:02 <DanC> use/mention buglet... <pm:workpackageUrl rdf:resource="http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/plan/workpackages/live/esw-wp-3.html"/>

17:27:12 <libby> ooh, yes

17:27:12 <danbri> 'Url', yup.

17:27:36 <danbri> pm:workpackageCanonicalWriteup, perhaps?

17:27:45 <DanC> sure

17:27:49 <libby> catchy

17:28:40 <DanC> I offer a 250point bounty for rules to relate pm: to ical: (i.e. to http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/ical#)

17:28:47 * danbri ponders idea of using http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/ to help progress rdf cal vocab... (but not sure quite how)

17:29:02 <danbri> edible bounty? ;)

17:29:50 <DanC> not clear whether danc:points are negotiable for food yet ;)

17:30:09 <libby> does anyone have any good ideas about agenda planning for next meeting

17:30:09 <gk> DanBri, I think somewhere to coordinate comments and notes about rdf cal vocab would certainly be useful

17:30:27 <DanC> er.. like www-rdf-comments?

17:30:31 <DanC> phpt

17:30:39 <DanC> er... like www-rdf-calendar?

17:30:44 <danbri> For scribbling, we also have the swad-e wiki installation, folk are welcome to keep notes there, or (as danc points out)theres the mailing list.

17:30:57 <gk> DanC, was that aimed at me?

17:31:02 <DanC> yes, gk

17:32:09 <gk> The concern I have is that mailing list messasges have a transience, and get mixed up with other stuff, when there are stakes we may want to fix in some way. The wiki sounds like a good tool.

17:32:47 <gk> Or, maybe, as DanBri suggests, maybe the Bugzilla stuff?

17:33:02 <danbri> the wiki is more transient in some ways, as people can edit your words away... (though rcs logged behind the scenes).

17:33:29 <danbri> I think for now it'd be an over-engineered solution. But I'm going to try Bugzilla with FOAF and report back.

17:34:22 <gk> [Drifting off-topic, maybe; feel free to shut me up] Editing words away is more a matter of trust in my view. The current wiki can represent a current state of consensus. Reminds me a bit of documents and paper-trails.

17:34:40 * danbri nods, is happy with wiki scratchpad for such things

17:35:04 <danbri> I'm very unfocussed w.r.t. rdf cal stuff at the moment, have lost track of where things are up to with the namespace/schema/structure etc...

17:35:33 <danbri> Libby, with your Java experiments, are you trying to replicate DanC's automatic ical-to-rdf process?

17:35:47 <libby> yep

17:35:55 <gk> So far, I think the current status is represented by what DanC put at <schema-URI, forgotten>

17:36:03 <libby> actually, I wanted to check w you guys about where to put that stuff

17:36:31 * danbri nods

17:36:34 <libby> it depennds (i.e. all the work done by) soem java code by Daniel Resare whihc I think is GPLed

17:37:02 <libby> I'd quite like to package all that up as a jar and put it somewhere to download

17:37:25 <danbri> I'm not sure if we have any solely-GPL'd stuff on w3.org. I can investigate if you like...

17:37:40 <libby> - I could put it on my site. wonderiung how much to overload the http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/ dir

17:37:58 <libby> Daniel might also release under a different plicense, dunno

17:38:01 <danbri> But putting it somewhere (bristol server etc) better than waiting ages worrying about license., so long as the license terms are clear.

17:38:03 <danbri> that might help too...

17:38:20 <libby> I'll check the lcense terms, put it u somewhere.

17:38:25 <danbri> ta

17:39:05 <libby> the other thing is, DanC, I wondered why you dont floow the icalendar thing of wrapping all the vevnts in a vcalendar in the rdf version?

17:39:44 * Ol have to go

17:39:47 <Ol> bye all

17:39:56 <libby> ok, thanks Ol

17:40:00 <LotR> cu ol

17:40:03 <danbri> cu

17:41:17 <libby> anywayt, because of daniel's mime-directory parser, it's all nice and simple

17:41:27 <DanC> wrapping?

17:41:37 <gk> Can someone remind me the URI of the calendar wiki pls? I don't see it linked from http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/

17:42:04 <DanC> yes, pls let's have a link

17:42:15 <danbri> general swad-e wiki is at http://esw.w3.org/t//view/ESW/WebHome (somewhat obscure)

17:42:19 <libby> I mean the icalendar stuff starts and finishes with "VCALENDAR" - your vcalendar bit is just the stuff about the vcalendar itself, cersion etc

17:42:25 <libby> there's a calendar wiki?

17:42:25 <danbri> no wiki cal page in there yet, to my knowledge.

17:42:40 <danbri> Oh, unless you mean some other wiki.

17:44:47 <DanC> ah... yes, I just assumed the occurence of VEVENT inside VCALENDAR was surface syntax; I didn't represent that relationship with a triple in the RDF. Is that what you expected libby? I wrote to the list about this...

17:45:07 <libby> yeah, thanks danc, I must have missed it

17:45:13 <libby> I'll check

17:45:23 <gk> DanBri, when you mentioned wiki scratchpad earlier, I assumed it was in existence. Were you proposing to add page to SWAD-E space, or create another?

17:45:26 <DanC> representing multiple VCALENDAR objects in one RDF document Dan Connolly (Mon, Jan 13 2003) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-calendar/2003Jan/0009.html

17:45:39 <danbri> yup, lets just add a page

17:46:19 <DanC> +1 re just add

17:46:25 * danbri doing that

17:46:45 <DanC> pls link from /2002/12/cal in the "nearby" list

17:47:01 <gk> My stuff uses VEVENT-PROP and VEVENT within VCALENDAR object. For complex recurring schedule, I think multiple events are needed. e.g. http://www.ninebynine.org/SWAD-E/Scenario-HomeNetwork/Users.n3

17:47:09 <danbri>http://esw.w3.org/t/view/ESW/RdfCalendar

17:47:10 <dc_rdfig> B: http://esw.w3.org/t/view/ESW/RdfCalendar from danbri

17:47:18 <danbri> b:|Wiki space for RdfCalendar notes

17:47:21 <danbri> B:|Wiki space for RdfCalendar notes

17:47:21 <dc_rdfig> Titled item B.

17:47:25 * danbri will add to other page

17:47:29 <DanC>http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/

17:47:29 <dc_rdfig> C: http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/ from DanC

17:47:39 <DanC> C:|RDF Calendar Workspace

17:47:39 <dc_rdfig> Titled item C.

17:47:50 <DanC> C:another chat at 1700Z today

17:47:50 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C1.

17:48:15 <DanC> logger, pointer?

17:48:20 * gk Great!

17:48:36 <DanC> logger_1, pointer?

17:48:36 <DanC> See http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2003-02-05#T17-48-36

17:49:24 <DanC> C:[disussion|http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2003-02-05#T16-58-23]

17:49:24 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C2.

17:49:53 <libby> gk, coould you explain a buit more about how recuurring stuff related to vcalendar-vevent relationship?

17:49:54 <LotR> gk: if it is the same event, it should just be one VEVENT.

17:50:06 * DanC finds the esw wiki kinda cluttered. too much foo at top of page

17:50:16 <gk> (DanC, is that a chump syntax you just used)

17:50:24 <danbri> ok, added crosslinks between wiki and filetree

17:50:33 <LotR> gk: you can have several rrule/rdate/exrule/exdate in one VEVENT

17:50:37 <libby> is it that you need a grouping construct for events? or some sort of sub-event thing?

17:50:48 * DanC really must finish packing...

17:50:59 * danbri agrees; that's the (cluttered) default behaviour of TWiki (some discussion on rdfweb-dev on whether to migrate from usemodwiki to twiki or wait for SomethingBetter)

17:51:13 <gk> LotR, hmmm... what is "same event"? Is, say, 1000-1600 mon-fri every week the same event as 1200-1800 on saturday/sunday every week?

17:52:37 <DanC> no, but they're cyc:temporallySomethingOrOther, gk...

17:53:06 <LotR> gk: um, how could I tell with only that information? you start with defining the event, and then you look at what occurences it has

17:53:08 * gk struggles to review my own work...

17:53:22 <LotR> damn lag again :(

17:53:29 <DanC> ah... http://www.cyc.com/cycdoc/vocab/time-vocab.html#cotemporal

17:54:00 <danbri> useful concept to have a name for.... two events can be causally disconnected but cotemporal...

17:54:18 <danbri> or part of a causal chain / larger event, which is a different notion

17:54:18 <libby> in the same place?

17:54:54 <danbri> quite whether events happen in a place is a good question...

17:55:16 <DanC> cf cyc:eventOccursAt

17:55:28 <DanC> and cyc:inRegion and such. much fun.

17:55:32 * DanC packs...

17:56:14 <libby> hm, 5 minutes scheduled time.

17:56:16 <gk> LotR, having looked at my stuff again, I think I need a separate event for each DTSTART/DTEND property I use. Otherwise, it seems ambiguous.

17:56:25 <libby> next time?

17:57:01 <danbri> same again next week?

17:57:04 * DanC books 90min for these things

17:57:30 <gk> (BTW, that's based on Libby's hybrid schema -- but relates to original iCalendar stuff, so I assume there will be something similar in the new schema.

17:57:40 <libby> ok, the default thing in apple: ical is one hour I think ;)

17:58:07 <libby> gk, have you looked at examples of the new schema?

17:58:31 * libby seconds same time next week

17:59:03 <gk> Libby, not yet, just glanced at the schema itself. I wasn't aware there were any recurrence examples yet.

17:59:18 <libby> I dont think there are....

17:59:30 <libby> I could make some though

17:59:31 <gk> I'm hoping we can contribute...

17:59:44 <libby> cool

18:00:04 <LotR> gk: of course. you can only have one DTSTART for an event

18:00:43 <danbri> do feel free to link stuff from http://esw.w3.org/t/view/ESW/RdfCalendar (hit the 'edit' button and blunder your way through, if new to Wikis)

18:00:46 <libby> I'll try and bug Ol for some more tests before then. also, theres some sort of interop testing soon by the calsch typees, so maybe they've got some...

18:01:05 <LotR> I'm fine with same time next week, but I'd really like to see a real agenda, so I can see whether it will be worthwhile to join

18:01:30 <DanC> wouldn't we all ;-)

18:01:40 <LotR> interop isn't public

18:01:58 <libby> I agree it's rather unfair to expect people to turn p regardless... but unless people ask me to put stuff on the agenda...

18:02:06 <LotR> I think you have to sign an NDA to participate

18:02:06 * danbri too (and would like to see people volunteer content/ideas/work to fill that agenda...)

18:02:09 <libby> ..I guess I copuld make stuff up

18:02:10 <gk> LotR, good that's what I thought. So this schedule needs 5 events: weekdays: 08:45-10:15, 16:00-16:45, 20:00-22:00, weekends: 08:45-11:15, 16:00-22:00

18:02:31 <libby> my bad for not getting it together earlier this time

18:02:45 <libby> lotr, really?

18:03:10 <LotR> libby: IIRC, yes.

18:03:11 <libby> but could't they give us the tests anyway?

18:03:33 <libby> probbaly not

18:03:39 <gk> Libby, would it make sense to put new test material and schema fragments on the agenda, for possible discussion, as and when it is available?

18:03:58 <libby> as a kind of standing item?

18:04:41 <libby> probbaly would help some. We said that the mailing list was the placeto post these things but could also discuss them here

18:05:11 <libby> well in the absence of any violenbt objections, I reckon next week same time is a goer.

18:05:34 <libby> when do peopel need to see agendas by? whats the w3c wg time?

18:06:27 <gk> I wasn't thinking that specifically ... but for example when we have some recurrence test case data, I'd like to put that up for discussion and comment. But maybe that's not best use of IRC time? I'm still trying to understand how these IRC conferences work best,

18:06:51 <libby> I think that would be interesting gk

18:06:59 <libby> I'm not sure either.

18:07:47 <gk> As for when by... I'd suggest (say) 2 hours before (time to download email and read). W3C WG is 1 day, I think, but that's a more formal process.

18:07:49 <danbri> gk, we're all trying to figure that out...

18:07:57 <danbri> 24 hours would be nice

18:08:05 <danbri> even if skeletal

18:08:22 <DanC> yes, 1day helps a lot.

18:08:26 <gk> Cool... I'm just trying to help, not claiming any special skill :-)

18:08:50 <libby> cheers, ok, let's aim for that

18:08:59 <libby> that=24 hours

18:09:08 <libby> probably skeletal

18:10:40 <gk> Thinks... is weekly efficient use of time? I like the chance to chat, working alone as I now do, but does it really make progress?

18:12:30 <libby> problem with 2 weekly, is that it tends to drift between times (for me anyway)

18:12:45 <DanC> yup

18:12:46 <libby> if we have a better agenda, people need not come to each one

18:13:01 <gk> OK

18:13:13 <libby> ...and is only irc....not phone

18:16:43 * gk wanders off to see what landed in the email today

18:19:27 <libby> `bye hk

18:19:35 <libby> bye gk even

18:25:06 <libby> c:next meeting - [Wednesday Feb 12th, 17:00 UTC|http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?day=12&month=2&year=2003&hour=17&min=0&sec=0&p1=0]

18:25:16 <libby> darn

18:25:31 <libby> C:next meeting - [Wednesday Feb 12th, 17:00 UTC|http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?day=12&month=2&year=2003&hour=17&min=0&sec=0&p1=0]

18:25:32 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C3.

18:25:50 <mdupont> hey libby

18:25:57 <libby> hello

18:26:10 <mdupont> oohhh

18:26:23 <mdupont> RDF Calendar i see in the title

18:26:25 * mdupont looks

18:26:46 <mdupont> ok, the workspace

18:26:51 <mdupont> you having a meeting here?

18:26:52 <libby> we kinda petered out mdupont

18:27:02 <mdupont> :)

18:27:02 <libby> I was just abotu to leave :)

18:27:06 <mdupont> ok

18:27:17 <mdupont> i just wanted to know

18:27:34 <libby> cheers all, night

18:27:49 <mdupont> is there a way i can reference lets say, workdays in britan as uri

18:27:50 <mdupont> ?

18:32:07 <DanC-AIM> danbri? Got time to phone me?

18:32:25 <DanC-AIM> .google is this thing on?

18:32:25 <mortenf_> mdupont, your dotgnu feed still seems to have some errors?

18:32:26 <datum> is this thing on?: http://www.thing.net/

18:32:51 <mdupont> mortenf_: thanks

18:32:54 <mdupont> let me look

18:33:08 <mortenf_> you could try the validator at http://feeds.archive.org/validator/check?url=http://dotgnu.org/index.rdf

18:33:11 <mdupont> mortenf_: any clues as to what?

18:33:13 <mdupont> oh thanks

18:33:27 <mdupont> mortenf_: very kind of you

18:33:39 <mortenf_> np

18:34:33 <DanC-AIM> W3c validator got some upgrade work lately... Wonder if it's been announced?

18:35:00 <mdupont> mortenf_: i just dropped gopal a line

18:35:13 <mortenf_> great.

18:35:32 <DanC-AIM> byebye

19:48:54 <mdupont> hey Morbus

19:49:14 <mdupont> hi bwm

19:49:15 <Morbus> hey mdupont.

19:49:26 <mdupont> hows things going?

19:49:31 <mdupont> what you up to?

19:58:29 <Morbus> right now, absolutely nothing of interest.

19:59:02 <mdupont> :)

19:59:06 <mdupont> cool

19:59:13 <mdupont> it is so quiet here

20:01:12 <danb_lap>http://rdfweb.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=3

20:01:12 <dc_rdfig> D: http://rdfweb.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=3 from danb_lap

20:01:32 <danb_lap> D:|Experimenting with use of Bugzilla for FOAF vocab issues

20:01:33 <dc_rdfig> Titled item D.

20:01:52 <danb_lap> D:FOAF as guinea pig, again... ;)

20:01:52 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D1.

20:02:15 <danb_lap> D:It's a fresh bugzilla installation, not very customised yet.

20:02:15 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D2.

20:03:18 <Morbus> is foaf gonna be to rdf as rss is to xml?

20:03:41 <mdupont> hehe

20:03:43 <mdupont> cool

20:03:47 * danb_lap not sure what the mystery relation is there

20:03:58 <mdupont> do you think you could publish a news article in foaf?

20:04:20 <Morbus> if rss is one of xml's most popular "everyday" uses, will foaf be rdf's equivalent?

20:04:27 <danb_lap> its not event-oriented enough yet...

20:05:29 <danb_lap> It could well be. Most RDF vocabs aren't very everydayish. But FOAF and RSS and RDF-Cal and wordnet etc etc can all play together in the same files, so the idea that one of them might be the 'winner' doesn't quite make sense.

20:05:52 <mdupont> you know #tunes

20:05:55 <mdupont> ?

20:06:00 <mdupont> here is a quote

20:06:01 <mdupont> <mdupont> i have been reading about the closed world machine from TimBL http://infomesh.net/2001/cwm/

20:06:01 <mdupont> <water> the semantic web is an idiotic idea

20:06:08 <Morbus> well, i wasnt thinking of "winners" or anything.

20:06:24 <Morbus> i'm thinking merely of deployment. rss is the only introduction 50% of its user probably have to xml.

20:06:32 * danb_lap doesn't know #tunes

20:06:43 <danb_lap> yeah, i tihnk we're quite rss-like in that regard

20:06:48 <Morbus> i can't name that #tune in any number of notes.

20:06:58 <danb_lap> an rdf sitemaps vocab, and rdf-cal too, could get similar exposure

20:07:04 <danb_lap> as might Wordnet in RDF.

20:23:29 <_joshua> RDF still suffers horribly from the fact that there's no explanation of it written in Human

20:29:29 <pixel> (it's all written in english)

20:29:31 <pixel> hehe

21:00:00 <mdupont> hey justme

21:00:03 <mdupont> hi pixel

21:00:10 <mdupont> hi _joshua

21:06:25 <soc|away> soc|away is now known as soc

21:13:15 <mdupont> hey s

21:13:17 <soc> soc is now known as soc|away

21:13:18 <mdupont> hey soc|away

21:50:04 <mdupont> hey DarkPenguin

21:51:20 <mdupont> i need some sleep

23:08:08 <DanC-AIM> This nick is registered to somebody else???

23:08:32 <DanC-AIM> Hi from ORD, all.

23:08:51 <DanC-AIM> .google ping

23:08:51 <datum> ping: http://www.pinggolf.com/

23:08:52 <danbri> hi DanC

23:09:09 <danbri> .google rdf-dev

23:09:10 <datum> rdf-dev: http://www.ilrt.bristol.ac.uk/discovery/rdf-dev/

23:09:35 <DanC-AIM> /me wonder what time it is where danbri is.

23:09:48 <danbri> it's 11:09

23:09:49 <danbri> pm

23:10:02 <DanC-AIM> Ah

23:10:03 * danbri has a catchup w/ chaals in 20 mins, then its bedtime

23:11:40 <DanC-AIM> I'm trying to make sense of the swad chart again...

23:12:15 <danbri> when was it last updated?

23:13:41 <DanC-AIM> I told timbl (~3weeks ago) it was all-over-the-floor and should I retire it, but he encouraged me to update it. I finally did yesterday

23:14:32 <DanC-AIM> I think http://www.w3.org/2000/01/sw/swadDev-chart.svg

23:14:41 <danbri> it always struck me as pretty useful...

23:15:49 <DanC-AIM> So... One of the current/orange bubbles there is assigned to you, danbri. Schema annotation or some such

23:16:04 <danbri> ooh. I should take more notice then.

23:16:25 <DanC-AIM> See assgnByPerson , ByTask in same dir

23:16:36 <DanC-AIM> Chaals has a bubble too

23:17:10 <_joshua> swad?

23:17:41 <danbri> 'swad' is 'semantic web advanced development', kinda the R'n'D aspect of W3C SW Activity

23:17:49 <DanC-AIM> The chart pre-dates the swad split into swell/global, so I'm not sure how much to track.

23:17:52 <danbri> ie. the things that aren't formal standards track

23:17:57 <danbri> ...or RDF Interest Group

23:18:28 * danbri not sure either; things we promise to do in the tuesday meetings, seems reasonable criteria.

23:18:33 <DanC-AIM> Swad ~= http://www.w3.org/2000/01/sw/

23:19:51 <DanC-AIM> Pulling away from the gate here...

23:20:10 <danbri> are you on a plane, or is that some metaphor?

23:20:45 <DanC-AIM> Do the connections to your bubble make sense, danbri?

23:21:09 <DanC-AIM> Chaals's bubble is the /TR/ success story

23:22:25 <DanC-AIM> I'd love to view the swadDev-chart merged with the swad-eu project plan.

23:22:31 <danbri> I can't see itin the n3...

23:22:36 <danbri> er s/n3/svg/

23:22:46 <danbri> but the font is funny...

23:22:54 <_joshua> Mmm.

23:23:07 <danbri> yes, that would be a good thing to try. we don't have high level goals / dependencies mapped out yet...

23:23:10 <DanC-AIM> Umm... Connected to xml modelling, danbri

23:23:52 <danbri> $Revision: 1.5 $, xml modelling appears to be a leaf node under 'standards transition'

23:24:49 <DanC-AIM> Bummer... thought I checked in refinement

23:24:58 <danbri> (on phone)

23:26:41 <DanC-AIM> Taking off... Well, that wad a tiny step toward syncing up, danbri. Here's (still) hoping...

23:27:00 <danbri> yeah, maybe phone sometime soon too?

23:27:04 <danbri> have a safe flight...

23:28:01 <DanC-AIM> Hmm.. Tag ftf this week...

23:29:06 <DanC-AIM> But I now have pointers to the sweu plan in rdf, so I have something to chew on. Maybe I can make a picture for you to look at.

23:30:55 <danbri> that might be fun (or distressing, depending on how many deadlines slipped 1/2 ;)

23:31:23 <danbri> mapping swad-e workplan topics to swad/w3c/swell/etc topics would be a good thing to visualise, perhaps?