Semantic Web Interest Group IRC Chat Logs for 2003-05-14

03:34:50 <golbeck_> golbeck_ is now known as golbeck

06:37:59 <am> am is now known as aminorex

09:46:33 <aharth> are there any restrictions for the use of rdfig scratchpad data? i want to syndicate them [in|into|for|at] my site

09:53:12 <aharth> seems that the overwhelming majority thinks it's ok when i do that :)

09:53:34 <dajobe> syndication - lots of people already do

09:53:52 <dajobe> BLURB:Hello rdfig syndicators, why not visit some time and say hi

09:53:52 <dc_rdfig> A: Hello rdfig syndicators, why not visit some time and say hi from dajobe

09:54:58 <aharth> dajobe: include the content in their own sites? or just read the news on their desktop?

09:55:04 <dajobe> both

09:55:56 <aharth> is there some sort of licence related to this data?

09:56:08 <dajobe> we've not needed to consider it so far

09:59:20 <aharth> are there archives available with older scratchpad data?

10:00:22 <aharth> the rss stream just have the last few entries, and i am not really good at screen-scraping

10:01:19 <mattb> aharth: see for example http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/2003/04/10/2003-04-10.xml

10:01:23 <mattb> every html page has an xml equiv

10:01:24 <dajobe> that's the xml

10:02:06 <aharth> in rss? all of it in one file?

10:02:27 <aharth> but it shouldn't be too dificult to convert that anyways...

10:04:22 <mattb> not in rss

10:04:25 <mattb> one file per date

10:04:28 <mattb> chump format

10:04:39 <mattb> it's the source used to make the rss and the html

10:06:23 <aharth> mattb: ok, what's the best way to get all of the chump files? i'll convert them to rdf/rss for my use

10:06:50 <mattb> hmm

10:07:03 <mattb> well, you could just run through every day of the year doing a request for URLs of the form above

10:07:12 <dajobe> or take the tar.gz

10:07:13 <mattb> /YYYY/MM/DD/YYYY-MM-DD.xml

10:07:17 <mattb> oh, there's a tar?

10:07:20 <dajobe> yes

10:07:20 * mattb shuts up

10:07:31 <mattb> ah yes, /archive.tgz

10:07:35 <dajobe> aharth: why do you want the old stuff?

10:07:38 <mattb> neat

10:08:08 <aharth> dajobe: building a semantic web site http://semwebguide.harth.org and i need content

10:08:40 <dajobe> there are other semweb blogs

10:08:47 <crysflame> heh

10:09:01 <dajobe> there are some issues with syndicating rdfig 'live'

10:09:05 <aharth> where?

10:09:08 <dajobe> since you can update the entries till the day rotates

10:09:16 <dajobe> some syndicators miss later comments and corrections

10:09:36 <dajobe> BLURB:Some SemWeb blogs

10:09:37 <dc_rdfig> B: Some SemWeb blogs from dajobe

10:09:46 <dajobe> B:[http://www.semanticplanet.com/|Semantic Planet]

10:09:46 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B1.

10:10:47 <dajobe> B:sometimes on [http://www.dannyayers.com/|Danny Ayers] but he can't keep his semweb blog on one site, presently 404 :)

10:10:47 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B2.

10:11:27 <dajobe> B:[http://www.semaview.com/|Semaview Blog] (commercial)

10:11:27 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B3.

10:11:51 <zoyd> hi.

10:11:51 <dajobe> B:[http://blog.asemantics.com/|@semantics weblog] (commercial?)

10:11:51 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B4.

10:12:28 <zoyd> I have a list of URLs that I want to RDFize. Should I use RSS, and with what module?

10:12:31 <dajobe> B:also semweb syndicator & content: [http://www.semanticweb.gr|SemanticWeb.gr]

10:12:31 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B5.

10:13:18 <crysflame> you want to rdfize the content of the urls, or just the urls themselves? do you wish to associate metadata with the urls, or are you looking for the simplest rdf representation of a list of urls alone?

10:13:20 <dajobe> B:and other syndication, RSS, geo sites sometimes do related stuff

10:13:20 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B6.

10:14:05 <zoyd> crysflame: just the URLs, like a list of bookmarks.

10:14:53 <crysflame> there's a semi-popular, perhaps misdirected, trend right now of representing a list of urls from an rss reader as opml.

10:15:03 <aharth> dajobe: thanks, i'll integrate those feeds also

10:15:15 <crysflame> i think there's pros and cons to the format, but it's a common way of representing a list of urls at the moment.

10:15:30 <zoyd> the URI itself, the name of the contributor and date/time, description and subject would be nice, we have xmlns:dc for that.

10:15:55 <crysflame> yeah, agreed

10:16:17 * aharth is integrating everything that he can grab

10:16:24 <zoyd> so, it's OPML then? would most RSS readers handle that?

10:16:25 <crysflame> which falls into the metadata category.

10:17:01 <crysflame> if you're specifically hoping for compatibility with rss readers, opml is the only format i'm aware of many rss readers supporting as an import format.

10:17:11 <crysflame> i can't think of any other format that i've seen supported.

10:18:19 <zoyd> RSS 1.0 with the link module(xmlns:l)?

10:18:38 <crysflame> um

10:18:47 <crysflame> that'd be a novelty! i don't know that anything would import it as a feedlist.

10:18:52 <crysflame> sounds very useful, though

10:20:06 <zoyd>http://web.resource.org/rss/1.0/modules/link/

10:20:06 <dc_rdfig> C: http://web.resource.org/rss/1.0/modules/link/ from zoyd

10:20:28 <zoyd> shouldn't xmlns:l be more RDF inclined than OPML?

10:20:56 <crysflame> yes, probably

10:21:21 <crysflame> opml - pro: rss reader support. con: isn't rdf koolaid

10:21:47 <crysflame> come up with something better, ask popular readers to support it. they're all pretty friendly.

10:24:47 <dajobe> aharth: of course I have a blog, but I know you read that :)

10:24:54 <botlars> botlars is now known as larsbot

10:25:16 <crysflame> dajobe: which?

10:26:04 <dajobe> google knows

10:26:09 <zoyd> ok, gotta go, be back later ... should ask more people.

10:26:52 <dajobe> B:my [http://journal.dajobe.org/journal/|blog] of stuff not really all semweb

10:26:52 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B7.

10:27:31 <crysflame> you watch interesting stuff

10:27:50 <dajobe> well, it's interesting *to me*

10:28:54 <aharth> dajobe: to me too, sometimes :)

10:29:14 <crysflame> i meant positive interesting, as usual

10:29:34 <dajobe> B:[http://semwebguide.harth.org|Semantic Web Guide] (alpha) from Andreas Harth

10:29:34 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B8.

10:30:16 <dajobe> oh, not a blog, but my rdf resource guide might count as an rss feed of stuff

10:30:50 <dajobe> B:nearby [http://www.ilrt.bristol.ac.uk/discovery/rdf/resources/|RDF resource guide] (by me) has an RSS feed. notablog

10:30:51 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B9.

10:31:43 <dajobe> ah, I remembered some more

10:32:09 <dajobe> B:[http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/|W3C Semantic Web news] has an RSS1.0 feed too

10:32:09 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B10.

10:32:32 <dajobe> B:/me laughs at the "no tools for RDF" comment again

10:32:32 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B11.

10:34:52 <aharth> dajobe: your rdf resource guide is also integrated if you don't mind

10:35:03 <dajobe> no, that's fine

10:35:14 <dajobe> hmm, I should add the pending items

10:54:00 <dajobe> B:[http://jena.hpl.hp.com:3030/blojsom-hp/blog/|http://jena.hpl.hp.com:3030/blojsom-hp/blog/] from Steve Cayzer, HP

10:54:01 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B12.

10:54:22 <dajobe> oops

10:54:42 <dajobe> B12:[http://jena.hpl.hp.com:3030/blojsom-hp/blog/|Semantic Blogging Demonstrator] from Steve Cayzer, HP

10:54:42 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment B12.

11:06:29 <dajobe>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Mar/0087.html

11:06:29 <dc_rdfig> D: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Mar/0087.html from dajobe

11:06:39 <dajobe> D:|OWL required to support xsd:integer and xsd:string only

11:06:40 <dc_rdfig> Titled item D.

11:06:52 <dajobe> D:no XML literal (rdf:XMLLiteral) support requried

11:06:52 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D1.

11:07:16 <dajobe> D:[http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Mar/0132.html|resolved 2003-03-20]

11:07:16 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D2.

11:07:22 <dajobe> D:hmm!

11:07:27 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D3.

11:09:35 <dajobe> hey danbri

11:10:12 <danbri> hi there

11:10:12 <dajobe> are you around in UK for rdfcore telcon?

11:10:21 <dajobe> on friday that is

11:10:26 <dajobe> I was considering going to HP

11:10:32 <danbri> I fly (strikes etc permitting) back from paris on fri am.

11:10:50 <dajobe> ok, that means likely not back in time for lunch :)

11:10:58 <crysflame> so it turns out feedster's rss database can link the geourl meta tags on a site's html page to the rdf/rss url

11:11:04 <danbri> Might be interesting to try to make it, but also i ought to be around home as is my 1 day there before -> budapest, got some packing etc to do!

11:11:46 <crysflame> but i still can't find rss with geo tags IN it

11:11:58 <crysflame> everyone presumes i want the geo tags in the html that links to the rss. rar.

11:12:31 * mattb has some spacenamespace tags in feeds such as http://www.picdiary.com/rss/winterlondon.rss

11:12:36 <mattb> per-item geolocation

11:13:35 <crysflame> what namespace is ..

11:13:50 <crysflame> oh, space.frot.org.

11:13:53 <crysflame> oh weird

11:14:09 <crysflame> well, that's a totally different way to do it. thanks.

11:41:48 <dajobe>http://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?release_id=159054

11:41:48 <dc_rdfig> E: http://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?release_id=159054 from dajobe

11:41:52 <dajobe> E:|Sesame 0.9 Released

11:41:53 <dc_rdfig> Titled item E.

11:42:19 <dajobe> E:"Sesame's own RDF parser is the default RDF parser now; it's

11:42:20 <dajobe> more compliant to the specs and a lot faster than the parser

11:42:20 <dajobe> included in Jena 1.6."

11:42:20 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E1.

11:42:22 <dajobe> argh

11:42:38 <dajobe> E1:"Sesame's own RDF parser is the default RDF parser now; it's more compliant to the specs and a lot faster than the parser included in Jena 1.6."

11:42:38 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment E1.

11:42:50 * mattb wonders if it's doing bnode unique naming yet

11:43:10 <mattb> last time i used their own parser, it started every bnode as NODE1 and counted up, on each parse run

11:43:20 <mattb> so it ended up doing accidental merging all over the place

11:43:27 <danbri> a common rdf hiccup

11:43:28 <dajobe> jeen ?

11:43:43 <mattb> i didn't report the bug, of course

11:43:43 <mattb> i suck

11:43:56 <danbri> why is it a bug? bnode ids only unique within context of a doc.

11:44:12 <danbri> if you merge rdf docs, you get the work of ensuring bnodes don't clash.

11:44:15 <mattb> seems a bug to me as this happened when you did "load from URL into the store"

11:44:22 <mattb> an operational with implicit merging

11:44:27 <mattb> s/operational/operation/

11:44:39 <mattb> so it's not a parser bug so much as a sesame system bug

11:44:50 <danbri> ah ok

11:45:05 <mattb> sesame could do bnode renaming after the parsing run of course

11:46:06 <jeen> hi

11:46:11 <jeen> sorry, was away

11:46:19 <dajobe> zoiks, this OMM demo looks very odd in mozilla http://62.213.161.156:8888/sesame/index.jsp

11:46:21 <mattb> i was using a pre-0.9 cvs checkout btw

11:46:27 <mattb> around the time serql was pre-announced

11:48:35 <jeen> matt, good point. that's a bug in the sesame internals (not the parser).

11:48:48 <mattb> cool

11:48:57 <mattb> ARP didn't cause the problem as it uses reasonably unique bnode names

11:49:08 <jeen> we're thinking about using MD5 strings as bnode ids though.

11:49:17 <jeen> that would also solve the problem

11:49:30 <mattb> MD5 strings calculated from what?

11:49:44 <jeen> from the base uri of the doc, probably

11:49:44 <mattb> MD5(node1) == MD5(node1) iyswim

11:49:47 <mattb> ah, right

11:50:28 <jeen> arjohn just remarks that he stole the md5 idea from ARP :)

11:52:46 <jeen> btw, you can still use ARP in combination with sesame if you wish.

11:53:01 <mattb> yeah, that's what i've been doing

11:53:13 <jeen> ah ok

11:53:30 <jeen> dajobe, what looks odd about it?

11:54:46 * jeen just notices that apparantly some repository on the omm demo have public writing access...

11:55:02 <jeen> I wonder if they really want that :)

11:55:06 <libby> .time

11:55:06 <datum> Wed, 14 May 2003 11:55:06 GMT

11:56:50 <danbri> I am getting utterly confused by timezones :(

11:57:24 <libby> .time BST

11:57:25 <datum> Wed, 14 May 2003 12:57:24 BST

11:57:29 <libby> that's right

11:57:45 <libby> datum defaults to UTC/GMT

13:09:26 <bijan> Dave Orchard just asserted that there is a 1-1 mapping between URIs and resource. I.e., if you have a new URI, you have a new resource

13:09:51 <bijan> I though URIs didn't make the unique name assumption

13:10:07 <danbri> that view seems to be one we can now call 'old fashioned'

13:10:12 <bijan> OR is this a subtley of "resources qua something like Fregean sense"

13:10:22 * zool smiles

13:10:25 <danbri> isn't he on the tag? shouldn't they be sorting this all out...?

13:10:30 <bijan> Er..he asserts that this is his understanding of the current stat of the tag

13:10:37 * danbri hopes not

13:10:43 <danbri> timbl has sometimes talked that way too

13:11:01 <bijan> I can make it work

13:11:15 <bijan> He said that you can define equivalence :)

13:11:33 <bijan> At which point, i wished I were reading Dummet

13:12:32 <MarkB> DaveO's mistaken

13:12:53 <bijan> That's many people's impression :)

13:13:02 <dajobe> jeen, see: http://www.redland.opensource.ac.uk/tmp/sesame/omm.png

13:13:07 <MarkB> heh

13:13:42 <MarkB> norm!

13:13:47 <jeen> holy sh... that does not look good...

13:13:55 <jeen> what version of moz are you running?

13:13:59 * bijan notes that this discussion isn't really healthy

13:14:01 <dajobe> it's all stripey on the first page

13:14:08 <dajobe> snapshot from 20030402

13:14:10 <bijan> Makes the tag look, well, confused and annoying

13:14:30 <bijan> There's a real evanglism problem

13:15:02 <MarkB> nah - misunderstandings like that go with the job

13:15:43 <jeen> very odd. works without a hitch here (moz 1.3 / Linux).

13:15:47 <bijan> Well, dying seems to be a thing that goes with the job of a SARS doctor...

13:16:04 <bijan> But it isn't *healthy*

13:16:29 <jeen> i do notice that they haven't updated the server in a while though, I think it's still running 0.6 or something.

13:16:32 <dajobe> jeen: this is 1.4alpha, I'll try updating it

13:17:21 <jeen> we don't do anything spectacular in the web interface, it's just plain html with some frames and a bit of css mostly.

13:18:15 <dajobe> hee hee

13:18:26 <dajobe> tempted in by my chump entries about you?

13:18:51 <danja> yup, found as an "rdfig syndicator"

13:19:07 <dajobe> aharth was asking, not around just now

13:19:22 <dajobe> are you going to fix all those broke citinames links?

13:19:36 <dajobe> citnames

13:19:58 <danja> bit of a nightmare with that

13:20:06 <danja> registered through a co in the uk

13:20:15 <danja> who only accept payment by cheque

13:20:27 <dajobe> what millenium are they in?

13:20:58 <danja> quitew

13:21:28 <danja> anyhow they've not got back to me since I sent the cheque

13:21:58 <danja> so I'm contemplating shifting everything somewhere else - I should be able to get the blog archives

13:22:04 <dajobe> I was going to suggest you just ... yeah, mov eit

13:23:06 <danja> stick it in MT, maybe use your categories ;-)

13:24:38 <danja> hmm - not sure what to make of new Sesame parser

13:25:31 <jeen> btw dajobe, do you have the same screwed up screen on our own demo server?

13:26:15 <dajobe> i've just installed a new moz

13:26:32 <niks> hi ppl, could I as a quick question please?

13:26:33 <dajobe> exactly the same

13:26:36 <dajobe> must be css

13:26:49 <niks> I'm trying to make reference to a build country for a vehicle

13:27:04 <niks> I can't seem to find anything to map a country code to

13:27:11 * dajobe waits for the sesame splash page....

13:27:25 <niks> I can find loads on point referenceing. but it's just a little to specific

13:27:32 <dajobe> jeen: your one looks fine

13:27:33 <danja> aminorex: danja says hi! (usually read through Amphetadesk and/or AvantGo)

13:27:38 <niks> any help would be grat thx

13:27:42 <danja> eh?

13:28:01 <dajobe> danja: nick expansion in your irc client, leave out the space "A:..."

13:28:03 <jeen> dajobe: weirder and weirder. anyway, I'll let the OMM guys know, they should update their server anyway.

13:28:16 <danja> heh, thanks

13:28:43 <danja> A:danja says hi! (usually read through Amphetadesk or Avantgo)

13:28:44 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A1.

13:29:27 <dajobe> niks: mapping a country? you mean like a term for "France"?

13:29:28 <libby> niks, good question. I don;'t know of anything...anyone else know country codes mappings in rdf?

13:29:47 <danja> must be somewhere - FR etc

13:30:02 <dajobe> dc:coverage something

13:30:22 * JibberJim always thinks that's strangely named.

13:30:33 <dajobe> don't go there Jim

13:31:26 <niks> yeah I've looked at coverage before but I was wondering if I could reference the country anywhere, rather than just a literial

13:31:42 <danja> ISO 3166?

13:31:49 <niks> I think ns:buildCountry>ITA</> will have to do for now

13:32:12 <dajobe> <dc:coverage rdf:datatype="something">FRA</dc:coverage>

13:33:48 <danja> maybe a good one for nurl - http://nurl.org/iso3166#EN etc

13:34:27 <dajobe> or there is a urn for these iana defined lists I think

13:34:39 <JibberJim> wasn't Earle looking at developing one a few weeks back? I remember having complaints against his subPropertyOf's ?

13:35:19 <grault> grault is now known as earle

13:35:36 <earle> yes, sort of, I was just thrashing around in an experimental fashion

13:36:20 * JibberJim had sort of done it too in http://jibbering.com/travels/locations.rdf

13:36:30 * earle nods

13:36:47 <JibberJim> but purely playing

13:37:16 * DanCon looks around for libby...

13:37:39 <DanCon> libby, I'm at risk for today's RDF calendar shin-dig. Lots of WebOnt and WWW2003 tutorial prep stuff to do; not sure I can spare the time/attention.

13:37:48 <libby> bummer

13:38:13 <libby> was there any part of it you were interested in? coudl move items around

13:38:23 <DanCon> I'm interested in all of it.

13:38:45 <DanCon> but I'm not sure I can afford to spend my attention that way.

13:38:54 <libby> ok

13:39:27 <libby> you suggested a calendar meet at www2003? woudl you be up for that?

13:40:14 <niks> thanks for your help then guys bbl

13:43:12 <danja> B:http://www.xulplanet.com/ndeakin/

13:43:13 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B13.

13:44:05 <danja> oo - should be able to style this better

13:45:06 <danja> B:XULPlanet blog, currently looking at RPath (RDFPath for XUL)

13:45:06 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B14.

13:47:33 <dajobe> danja: maybe make that into a link, B13:[URL-here|text here] then B14:"" to delete it

13:48:05 <danja> right

13:48:33 <danja> like this?

13:49:25 <danja> B13:[http://www.xulplanet.com/ndeaking/|

13:49:25 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment B13.

13:49:30 <dajobe> close...

13:49:33 <danja> damn!

13:50:45 <danja> B13:[http://www.xulplanet.com/ndeaking/|XULPlanet] blog currently looking at RPath (XPath-like queries for RDF, using for XUL GUI)

13:50:45 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment B13.

13:51:00 <danja> B14:""

13:51:00 <dc_rdfig> Deleted comment B14.

13:51:06 <dajobe> that looks better, ta

13:51:11 <danja> right, what does that look like...

13:51:13 <danja> ta

13:51:21 <dajobe> url is a 404 :(

13:51:59 <danja> B13:[http://www.xulplanet.com/ndeakin/|XULPlanet] blog currently looking at RPath (XPath-like queries for RDF, using for XUL GUI)

13:51:59 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment B13.

13:52:03 <danja> typo

13:52:41 <libby>http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/rdfquery/tests/

13:52:42 <dc_rdfig> F: http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/rdfquery/tests/ from libby

13:53:15 <libby> F:|Some rdql/squish RDF query tests from three different systems

13:53:15 <dc_rdfig> Titled item F.

13:54:18 <libby> F:uses the manifest and resultset format we have been discussing in irc, and also ntriples versions of the queries, for interoperability. the ntriples arebn;t proper because they can have blank predicates.

13:54:18 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F1.

13:54:44 <danja> hmm, I've got more semweb related blogs in the citnames blogroll, something else to sort out

13:55:02 <danja> cool libby!

13:55:02 <libby> F:[http://www.w3.org/2003/03/rdfqr-tests/|RDF Query (and Rule) Testcase Repository

13:55:02 <libby> ] for more information.

13:55:02 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F2.

13:55:14 <libby> b*gger

13:55:16 <libby> thanks danja

13:55:18 <dajobe> danja: I think there are some more but I ran out of steam, time, ...

13:55:37 <libby> F2:[http://www.w3.org/2003/03/rdfqr-tests/|RDF Query (and Rule) Testcase Repository] for more information

13:55:37 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment F2.

13:56:04 <danja> heh, I'd better spend some time on work, before the next phone bill - bye

13:56:22 <libby> F:the testcases are from Jena, RDFStore, and inkling.

13:56:22 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F3.

13:56:27 <libby> bye danja

13:56:42 <dajobe> ciao danny

13:57:30 <libby> F:running queries that aren;t mine through my system, I'm getting a 60-75% hit rate, lookig at number of rows at the moment only.

13:57:30 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F4.

13:58:21 <libby> F:all released under [http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/2002/copyright-software-20021231|W3C consortium license], with various copyright holders.

13:58:21 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F5.

13:59:12 <libby> F:I'm so chuffed with this - thanks Andy and Alberto!

13:59:13 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F6.

14:01:25 <libby> .time UTC

14:01:32 <libby> aw

14:01:42 <libby> no datum

14:03:42 <libby> hm, bummer about DanC later - several interesting agenda items depending on him rather.

14:04:00 <JibberJim> do you have a link to the agenda?

14:04:21 <libby>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-calendar/2003May/0006.html

14:04:21 <dc_rdfig> G: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-calendar/2003May/0006.html from libby

14:04:38 <JibberJim> thanks

14:04:51 <libby> G:|agenda for RDF calendar IRC meet - todday at 1600UTC for 90 minutes

14:04:52 <dc_rdfig> Titled item G.

14:05:13 <libby> G:I'm happy to accept agenda proposals....

14:05:14 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G1.

14:06:04 <libby> G:[http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?day=14&month=5&year=2003&hour=16&min=0&sec=0&p1=0|2003-05-14, 1600UTC]

14:06:04 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G2.

14:07:30 <libby> BLURB: outstanding actions (calendar meet agenda item G)

14:07:30 <dc_rdfig> H: outstanding actions (calendar meet agenda item G) from libby

14:07:48 <libby> BLURB:Round-tripping RDF ical tests, toIcal.py (calendar meet agenda item H)

14:07:49 <dc_rdfig> I: Round-tripping RDF ical tests, toIcal.py (calendar meet agenda item H) from libby

14:07:56 <libby> heheh

14:07:59 <libby> erk

14:08:20 <libby> H:|outstanding actions (calendar meet agenda item H)

14:08:21 <dc_rdfig> Titled item H.

14:08:38 <libby> I:|Round-tripping RDF ical tests, toIcal.py (calendar meet agenda item I)

14:08:39 <dc_rdfig> Titled item I.

14:09:05 <libby> BLURB:nterpretationProperties, esp as applied to timezones (calendar meet agenda item J)

14:09:05 <dc_rdfig> J: nterpretationProperties, esp as applied to timezones (calendar meet agenda item J) from libby

14:09:25 <DanCon> .time

14:09:26 <libby> J:|InterpretationProperties, esp as applied to timezones (calendar meet agenda item J)

14:09:26 <dc_rdfig> Titled item J.

14:09:43 <libby> it's 1400 UTC

14:09:56 <zool> is it 1400 utc already? :/

14:10:04 <DanCon> thanks (I used date -u too)

14:10:05 <libby> meetig in 2 hours but I have a meeting in between.

14:10:21 <libby> hence the flailing chumping

14:10:44 <libby> BLURB:Face to face meet at www2003? (calendar meet agenda item K)

14:10:44 <dc_rdfig> K: Face to face meet at www2003? (calendar meet agenda item K) from libby

14:11:12 <libby> BLURB:Useful vocbularies for events (e.g. location, topic (rss)...) (calendar meet agenda item L)

14:11:12 <dc_rdfig> L: Useful vocbularies for events (e.g. location, topic (rss)...) (calendar meet agenda item L) from libby

14:14:19 <libby> J:see [http://esw.w3.org/topic/InterpretationProperties|esw wiki InterpretationProperties page]

14:14:19 <dc_rdfig> Added comment J1.

14:31:17 <rprouse> rprouse is now known as robProuse

14:34:28 <chris__> chris__ is now known as csukornyk

14:34:48 <csukornyk> csukornyk is now known as sukornyk

14:36:09 * robProuse slaps tim around a bit with a large trout

15:21:22 * wkearney99 waves

15:21:50 * bitsko waves back

15:21:55 <wkearney99> is there an OWL ontology search like this one for DAML? http://www.daml.org/ontologies/

15:23:28 <bitsko> anyone know of a list of RDF tools that indicate which tools have a node-centric API? that is, once the RDF is loaded, and some specific resource located, you can then do 'print resource.property' or 'resource.property = "foo"'

15:29:40 <jeen> i don't know of any lists that specify that, but the Jena API allows that kind of thing.

15:36:10 <Wack> i've never seen such a list bitsko

15:37:05 <Wack> and what i've seen is usually rather outdated :/

15:39:27 <bitsko> :(

15:39:47 <Wack> what language/platform btw?

15:39:57 <bitsko> I know, I wrote two libs that qualify, but let both go unmaintained :(

15:41:38 <bitsko> any language or platform. I'm updating the REST wiki page on RestAndStructuredData, http://internet.conveyor.com/RESTwiki/moin.cgi/RestAndStructuredData

15:42:28 <bitsko> there's been a flurry of recent XML APIs that make XML look like native data structures. I've seen a very few RDF toolkits that do the same, and wanted to list those.

15:43:20 <Wack> well, our (under development) rdf database is both model- (context, collection, whatever) and resource-centric

15:43:49 <Wack> it's part of a greater (knock on wood) website development framework

15:44:32 <Wack> we're thinking of making it opensource, but the database is heavily built upon corba features, so it's not of much use without it :]

15:45:57 <Wack> even so, it works with methods instead of attributes to retrieve "properties"

15:46:15 <Wack> Node Resource::getProperty(predicate); etc

15:47:47 <bitsko> yes, that's a distinction I'm focusing on.

15:48:51 <Wack> our templating engine wraps around it, now that I think of it

15:49:07 <Wack> env.ns("http://purl.org/etc/dc", "dc")

15:49:19 <Wack> resource.dc_title

15:49:20 <Wack> etc

15:50:23 <bitsko> as in HTML templates? that's cool

15:51:09 <Wack> yeah, it's now actually coming together quite nice

15:51:47 <Wack> we have crude sitemap in the model as well, you automatically have access to it from within modules and the templates

15:52:29 <Wack> the current page is simply represented as a direct reference to the page resource in the model, from there on you can retrieve metadata of it

15:52:52 <Wack> or traverse it's child pages to generate a navigational menu of sorts

15:53:05 <mortenf> .time utc

15:53:56 <mortenf> hmm, anyway, seems I made it in time...

15:57:44 <Kake> Hello.

15:59:59 <zool> hi Kake, Schuyler_

16:00:18 <libby> .time

16:00:30 <mortenf> 16:00 UTC

16:00:31 <mortenf> :)

16:00:34 <libby> :)

16:00:47 <libby> ok, it's time for calendaring!

16:01:26 <libby> -------calendaring irc chat - see http://rdfig.xmlhack.com for agenda

16:01:58 <libby> J:[libby miller|http://ilrt.org/people/libby] attending

16:01:59 <dc_rdfig> Added comment J2.

16:02:35 <mortenf> J:Morten Frederiksen present.

16:02:35 <dc_rdfig> Added comment J3.

16:02:52 <libby> hm

16:03:07 <libby> J:DanC sent his apologies

16:03:07 <dc_rdfig> Added comment J4.

16:03:27 * danbri in swad-europe phone call, will be lurking for next 27 mins

16:03:29 <mortenf> arh.

16:03:33 <libby> just you'n'me morten....

16:03:51 * zool lurks quietly learningly

16:03:55 <libby> :)

16:03:56 * Kake lurking too

16:03:57 <mortenf> ;)

16:04:13 <Schuyler_> and me

16:04:20 <Schuyler_> (with the lurking)

16:04:27 * mattb ditto

16:04:30 <libby> shame about danc as he had an interesting pouint about timezones, which may screw everything over that we have done on tz so far

16:04:37 <zool> ouch

16:04:38 <libby> aw, lovely lurkers :)

16:04:45 <mortenf> yep, that's what i was looking forward too as well.

16:04:54 <libby> b*ll*cks

16:04:58 <libby> ah well

16:05:07 <libby> we oudl all sit quietly and read

16:05:12 * katie here lurking, from OSAF

16:05:17 <mortenf> well, any outstandings that are completed?

16:05:21 <libby> well, let's plough through.

16:05:27 <libby> yeah, I did one!

16:05:30 <danbri> hi katie!

16:05:30 <mortenf> weeh!

16:05:33 <libby> that's why I put it in :)

16:05:36 <katie> hello

16:05:37 * Morbus perks up.

16:05:39 <Morbus> katie?

16:05:43 <Morbus> my gf's name is katie.

16:05:47 <Morbus> i didn't know she was a closet geek.

16:05:57 <libby> heh

16:06:20 <katie> oh, I see her at the meetings

16:06:25 <libby> I dd a converter from chefmoz to ical: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-calendar/2003May/0005.html

16:06:54 <libby> there's one teo issues, most notably the lack of timeszones, which makes it annoying for usecases

16:06:57 <Kake> Ooooh.

16:07:30 <libby> it was no big deal except - my perl is still terrible, and - the chezmoz files are too huge ot deal with

16:07:47 <libby> be great to work out mapping to tz tho

16:08:03 <libby> so then you can say - what will e open when I get to budapest, etc

16:08:37 <libby> well actually you could sorta do that, but what you can;t do is write the information down in icalendar correctly at the moment, as it's got ot have a tz

16:09:01 <libby> any other completed actions?

16:09:12 <libby> I had another to do - the product registry - that I haven;t done

16:09:38 <danbri> does chefmoz have any coverage of budapest?

16:09:57 <libby> not sure

16:10:25 <libby> ok, moving on....

16:10:33 <libby> Round-tripping RDF ical tests, toIcal.py (calendar meet agenda item I)

16:10:39 <libby> I think this is a good thing.

16:10:49 <libby> without danc we can;t really discuss it....

16:11:17 <libby> has anyone else looked at this/round tripping?

16:11:26 <mortenf> nope.

16:12:46 <libby> it's one of our criteria for finishing up, to gget that working

16:13:03 <libby> - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-calendar/2003Mar/0029.html

16:13:10 <libby> anyway, moving on

16:13:20 <libby> InterpretationProperties, esp as applied to timezones (calendar meet agenda item J)

16:14:13 <Bdragon> Bdragon is now known as Qdragon

16:14:54 <Qdragon> (oooh, now with more Geo flavouring!? Bold, with a little oak flavoring?)

16:15:13 <mortenf> on this, i'm currently discussing the same kind of issues re geo (with chris goad), but in general it seems as if it's either this or reification...

16:15:19 <libby> so DanC was saying that tz handling (e.g. http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/tzd/Europe/London.rdf) was done in a way similar to the top example here: http://esw.w3.org/topic/InterpretationProperties

16:15:24 <libby> which is a bad thing

16:15:38 <libby> bbut I'm not quite sure what aspecyt of it he means

16:15:42 * libby looks

16:16:58 <mortenf> the problem is that the time can't be converted to another timezone without duplicating properties and making any interpretation impossible (when there are 2 tzs).

16:17:50 <libby> i.e. the same dtstart having 2 dates efectively?

16:17:53 <mortenf> however, a way to do it would be to seperate the time into a resource, which can then be converted to another resource.

16:18:04 <mortenf> yeah, that as well.

16:18:51 <libby> so datetime -> DateTime -> value

16:18:53 <mortenf> all because "time" is a composite "key".

16:19:00 <mortenf> yep.

16:19:18 <libby> does that fit with the rdf datatypes model?

16:19:26 <libby> sound slike it might

16:20:04 <mortenf> i've been wondering about that, using datatypes for this kind of qualification (tz, coord system etc.), but i'm not sure it's clean and usable.

16:20:26 <libby> I can see this looks like a bad bit of modelling, but is it eveer atually going to come up?

16:20:36 <mortenf> which part?

16:20:49 <libby> I think that someone shoudls look inot the datatypes issue

16:21:13 <libby> i.e. are we ever doing to merge two dates like that, so that their dates bcome an issue?

16:21:22 <mortenf> yeah, that would be nice. it's a general issue.

16:21:42 <libby> yesm, and I couldn;t find much on it, when I looked recently

16:21:53 <mortenf> i think so, i.e. to check if two events occur at the same time, and for multiple representations of the same event (like this chat).

16:22:01 * libby thinks about volunteering, but shouldn;t really

16:22:19 * mortenf agrees

16:22:48 <mortenf> perhaps a mail to rdf-interest would start something?

16:23:01 <libby> ok

16:23:17 <libby> you want to, or ahall I?

16:23:24 <mortenf> please do.

16:23:41 <mortenf> i'll follow up. :)

16:23:43 <libby> [darn] ok ;)

16:24:08 <libby> J:ACTION libby send a mail to rdf-interest on this topic

16:24:08 <dc_rdfig> Added comment J5.

16:24:25 <libby> ok, anything else on that?

16:24:37 <mortenf> not at this moment, unfortunately...

16:24:55 <libby> thanks mortenf for exaplining it... :)

16:24:57 <libby> Face to face meet at www2003? (calendar meet agenda item K)

16:25:17 <libby> I'm going; danc half-suggested a meet

16:25:28 * mortenf won't be present. :(

16:25:29 <libby> in particular, we have no more scheduled meets after this one

16:25:32 <libby> boo

16:25:44 <mortenf> that should be on the agenda: next meet.

16:25:53 <mortenf> well, next chat.

16:25:55 <libby> yeah

16:26:13 <libby> BLURB:next meeting date and time (calendar meet agenda item M)

16:26:14 <dc_rdfig> M: next meeting date and time (calendar meet agenda item M) from libby

16:26:45 <libby> ok, well not much enthusiasm for the f2f suggestion right now

16:26:47 <mortenf> in any case, i think you guys should have a beer while dicussing calendaring...

16:27:04 <libby> I will chat with fellow rdfcalendar types whereer I find them

16:27:32 <libby> good idea morten

16:27:47 <libby> beer it is

16:27:57 <libby> ok

16:27:59 <libby> Useful vocbularies for events (e.g. location, topic (rss)...) (calendar meet agenda item L)

16:28:10 <libby> wow, we're speeding along today

16:28:11 <mortenf> ah.

16:28:15 <mortenf> :)

16:28:42 <libby> I put this in because I wanted a way of having rdf cal events in an rss channel

16:28:52 <mortenf> tis because we're danless (if not daneless).

16:29:02 <mortenf> yeah.

16:29:12 <libby> also bears on the hoary mising dates /tmes/geo question

16:29:18 <libby> yeah

16:29:20 <mortenf> location: the geo vocab.

16:29:40 <mortenf> topic: foaf:topic (on the the non-granular level).

16:30:01 <zool> interesting

16:30:02 <libby> yeah

16:30:19 <zool> same problem as in geo world re intermediate nodes connecting documents to events in spacetime

16:30:32 <libby> so here: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/200211/swconferences/events1.html there's a thing using topic, as danc suggested to me.

16:30:47 * danbri emerges from telecon (voiceover ip france -> boston; mostly talking to folk in england!)

16:30:50 <mortenf> on the combined note, what do people think of the place+time urls?

16:31:46 <danbri> I prefer data broken out into properties rather than packed into structured URIs (but i'm missing a lot of context)

16:31:56 <mortenf> that is, http://placetime.com/ and (i forget)

16:32:16 <mortenf> zool, do you have the other url handy?

16:32:43 <zool> oh, that http://thereandthen.org i think

16:32:59 <_joshua> sigh

16:33:02 <_joshua> HANDS HURT SO MUCH

16:33:03 <mortenf> yep, that's it.

16:34:03 <libby> looks sorta appealing, though I'm a structed person myself

16:34:24 <mortenf> i agree danbri, it's not a good idea to stuff it into something that has to be parsed out again every time it's used (and i really don't see a use for it, with all the related vocabs).

16:34:40 <libby> reminds me of erm...theresa sorts of string that people use to represnt physical resolces without uris, like books

16:34:41 <zool> the scheme arbitrary, reinvention whole cloth; i've been unable to offer him the kind of moon-on-stick advice he seems to want

16:35:41 * wkearney99 ugh, them's some ugly urls...

16:35:56 <libby> I think there's an interesting thing here, common to all this stuff, which is separating out things from descriptions of them, esp in an rss channel

16:36:16 <libby> i.e. use foaf:topic, because it makes things much less confusinbg

16:36:39 <libby> e.g. the rss events module: dead handy, but mixes up the event and it's description - events don;t jhave urls as such

16:36:49 <zool> yes, the richer semweb bootstrapping vocab; wonder if there's still thoughts on setting up semanticweb@w3.org for sharing / codeveloping richer vocabs of that kind

16:37:10 <libby> interesting also for the geourl type stuff - not the location of the webpoage but the loaction of the person in the webpage etc

16:37:13 <mortenf> methinks it's sorta the same issue as not assigning uris to people.

16:37:27 <libby> yeah maybe

16:37:36 * wkearney99 +.5 morten

16:37:44 <libby> wonder if there's still thoughts on setting up semanticweb@w3.org for sharing / codeveloping richer vocabs of that kind

16:37:48 <libby> - me too

16:38:19 <mortenf> yep.

16:38:37 <wkearney99> I'm finding the whole argument of describing a URI vs describing people (or places) is really bogging down forward motion on actually getting the content marked up.

16:39:01 * zool &

16:39:09 <libby> wkearney99, how do you mean?

16:39:19 <libby> i.e. the fact that peopel are arguing about that distuinction?

16:39:21 <mortenf> bill, that's true, but if it's marked up "wrong", it's no use...

16:39:35 <libby> yeah, it'll all smush together wrong....

16:40:22 * wkearney99 rolls eyes and thinks, "wrong" data that EXISTS does more to help advance the understanding of why "better" data is worthwhile.

16:40:34 <mortenf> true.

16:40:39 <libby> aw, don;t roll eyes bill

16:41:09 <libby> so any data better than none. probably true

16:41:23 <wkearney99> ok, "throws up hands" then, but you get my drift.

16:41:54 <libby> is it really boggign things down? in what context?

16:42:09 <mortenf> but it's also a matter of resources and not repeating mistakes.

16:42:28 <wkearney99> I'm itching to start pointing people to effective ways to mark up items they're pushing around (rightly or wrongly) via stuff like RSS. It's not the perfect medium for it but folks are expressing desire and it's a mistake to argue with them over 'semantics'

16:42:52 <libby> a colleague really really likes the rss modeules explanations, and says he'll change his stuff when I do something as good as those explanantions

16:43:04 <wkearney99> +1 libby

16:43:15 <libby> which is a fair point

16:43:36 <libby> and so that points us in the right direction - if we have a better idea, writeit doen real clearly :)

16:44:14 <libby> wwhat would you point them to, bill, at the moment?

16:44:41 <wkearney99> that's the trouble. I really haven't seen enough that boils it down.

16:45:56 <wkearney99> I'm faced with pointing them to stuff that rapidly overwhelms them. Rightly or wrongly, they get lost and want something that more concretely says "do this and if you care, here's why"

16:46:30 <libby> make sense to me

16:46:45 <libby> ok: I think we could do with some volunteers

16:46:59 <libby> and some neat vocabs that just need writing up

16:47:34 * libby shelters ears from the clomour of volunteers ;)

16:47:39 <wkearney99> which ones?

16:47:55 * libby has a look

16:49:01 <danbri> "I'm faced with pointing them to stuff that rapidly overwhelms them."

16:49:06 <danbri> ...very real problem

16:49:19 <danbri> i went looking for gentle non-geek intros to semweb recently. not much around.

16:49:25 <libby> the geo one is neat and simple: http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/

16:49:44 <libby> I shoudl probbaly ahve a crack at the rdfical in rss one

16:50:02 <danbri> the geo one is simple, but the documentation doesn't do everything it could to be helpful, yet.

16:50:40 <libby> qdragon....thinking....

16:50:46 <wkearney99> I sort of found the use of geo, as opposed to existing stuff like GML, to be one of those "why did they do that" sort of confusing factors.

16:51:41 <danbri> yes, i was just talking about that on a telecon...

16:51:46 <libby> qdragon, a big issue for me is just that the rss events thing is a bit underspecificed - you juust put a string represnting the loaction,a dn that means you can;t easily match it up withother info about that location.

16:52:21 <danbri> do you think it is widely appreciated that RDF apps can only really mix with other RDF apps? ie. if there's a relevant non-RDF XML app (eg. GML) it can't fit into RDF without soem work to map it to RDF structures...?

16:52:38 * wkearney99 follows the concern and thinks, "fine then give me the exact syntax you want instead"

16:53:05 <mortenf> it's not about syntax...

16:53:56 <Kake> This is related, I think, to what delayed me getting interested in the semantic web. Once I was shown concrete examples (as danbri, zool, mattb did for me), it started to fall into place.

16:54:14 <wkearney99> I don't think it's widely grasped. The explanations of why are lacking. That and the explanations of why BEING and RDF apps is likewise under explained/promoted.

16:54:21 <libby> re the ge thing danbri, I thinkexample of mixtin geo and the rest would be neat. sometimes we have said per5son->geo:lat; sometimes webpage....

16:54:22 * danbri pats himself and zool and mattb on the head

16:54:22 <Kake> Before that there was a huge pile of philosophising and motivating, which is great, but my head doesn't work that way.

16:54:30 <wkearney99> s/BEING and/being an/

16:54:34 <libby> mrotenf, but people think of the syntax - they want to know what to put

16:54:47 * danbri nods to bill, agrees

16:54:51 <Qdragon> I hear you Kake, I'm still trying to iron down the use of Protege for Topic Maps :)

16:55:11 <Kake> Using RESTlike stuff to communicate between my web things and my IRC bots was a huge motivator for me; it all made sense.

16:55:20 <mortenf> libby, yeah, but for existing xml apps...

16:56:10 <libby> perhaps we should all pick a vocab, pick a volunteer, and write something to explain it to them

16:56:16 * libby has one of each

16:56:24 <libby> except a document explaining it

16:56:37 <Kake> I am happy to be a test subject. If I can understand it any bugger can.

16:57:18 <libby> you're interested primarily in geo stuff kake?

16:57:34 <Kake> It's what I'm mostly working on at the moment, yes.

16:57:52 <Kake> But it might be nice to try and understand more widely.

16:58:00 <libby> - you guys use the geo vocab already?

16:58:19 <Kake> Ish. It's all a bit icky and partly made-up at the moment.

16:58:34 <libby> I've been looking at opening hours, but I'd hesitate to say I could exlain that to anyone at the moment!

16:58:45 <Kake> I'm also very interested in the opening hours thing. It'd be very useful for openguides.

16:58:55 <Kake> "It's 9pm, I'm in Holborn, I want pub food"

16:59:00 <libby> what sort of data do you ahve for opeining hours? for pubs?

16:59:11 <libby> string-type stuff?

16:59:21 * libby looks for danbri's example

16:59:23 <Kake> Again, a mish-mash. Yes, plain strings, whatever people felt was useful to put in.

16:59:37 <libby> e.g. http://esw.w3.org/topic/GrubstreetMeetsChefMoz

16:59:45 <Kake> Anything from "Mon-Fri 11am-11pm, Sat 3pm-6pm" to "standard pub hours"

17:00:08 <libby> and that would be the opening times of the pubs, not food times....

17:00:19 <Kake> I can make it be more structured, for example present a set of pairs of boxes "opens at", "shuts at".

17:00:33 <Kake> Indeed; it's not separated out like that. Although that information is often present on the pages.

17:00:50 <Kake> Usually under the freeform "Food" heading - what the food's like and when it's served.

17:01:06 <libby> can do this sort of thing - |10-11,12-23|12-23|12-23|12-23|12-23|

17:01:14 <libby> right

17:01:21 <Kake> I can store this in my backend no problem; the puzzle is the user interface and how to present it machine-readably.

17:01:33 <Kake> There will be non-technical users inputting to this.

17:01:48 * JibberJim likes the idea of opensAt/closesAt predicates, as being more RDF tool searchable... ie you don't need to teach it other formats to parse.

17:01:58 <libby> the repeating event rep is not very clear

17:02:08 <libby> right jim

17:02:31 <libby> I think it's worth loking at optimeset in skical; not done that recenlt

17:02:33 <libby> y

17:03:08 * libby actions herself to go do that

17:03:23 <LotR> what's wrong with recur syntax, other than being able to specify more than anyone could possibly want with it?

17:03:37 <libby> L:ACTION libby look at skical optimeset and report back

17:03:38 <dc_rdfig> Added comment L1.

17:03:46 <libby> lotr, hi

17:03:51 <LotR> hi libby

17:03:54 <libby> it's a bit funny for opeing hours, I find

17:03:55 <danbri> you mentioned that before lib. can you say what optimeset is briefly?

17:04:04 <libby> a set of opening times

17:04:08 <libby> not sure really

17:04:13 <libby> might even be in xml

17:04:27 <libby> - and extension of icalendar specifically of ropening times

17:04:27 <danbri> I believe the term is "mere xml"

17:04:30 <LotR> libby: funny how?

17:04:30 * danbri ducks, runs

17:04:36 <libby> heh

17:05:07 <libby> sorry lort. hm well, you have to have a vcalendar for a group of events represnting recurring events.

17:05:09 <libby> I think

17:05:34 <libby> so for example, s place has diff opening times on mon and tues. you need a diff recurring event for each of these

17:05:45 <libby> you cant group them except in a vcalendaer I don;t think

17:05:52 <libby> tell me if I got it wrong....

17:06:34 <libby> H:[chefmoz to iaclendar perl script|http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-calendar/2003May/0005.html]

17:06:34 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H1.

17:06:36 <LotR> no, having multiple events is how it's intended, what I gather from the mailing list

17:07:08 <libby> ok

17:07:12 <LotR> for calendaring, it makes more sense as seperate events

17:07:14 <libby> well that's cool

17:07:36 <LotR> not sure what use you're discussion, as I just dropped in

17:08:18 <libby> opening hours for pubs and restaurants, so you can find good pub food in budabest or whereever at 9 at night

17:09:03 <LotR> well, I guess you could invent a new sytax for that

17:09:06 * wkearney99 wonders why treating operating hours as 'events' is a good idea. Just to make it fit in the existing calendaring stuff?

17:09:43 <libby> bill, well I guess to see if it does fit really, with existing stuff

17:09:44 <LotR> and then duplicate the data for your employee calendar, where you *want* seperate events, so you can assign shifts to employees

17:10:08 <libby> it's not clear though that repeating events are often used as interchange data. apple does mind

17:10:16 <JibberJim> because the queries are similar wkearney99 I think.

17:10:36 <wkearney99> Recurring events are a rats nest. I wouldn't have chosen to focus on them as a way to get people tuned into calendaring.

17:10:54 <libby> very true bill

17:11:04 <LotR> libby: iCalendar isn't used often, so any particular feature is used even less :)

17:11:13 <libby> but it would be cool to find out when restauarants were open

17:11:15 <wkearney99> As for using this data as a link from public resource finding into personnel is a bit of a reach.

17:11:17 <libby> hehe lotr

17:12:08 <libby> Hm, I think we are sorta wiinding down here

17:12:25 <libby> before I lose poeples' attention, coudl we discuss next meeting?

17:12:34 <libby> perhaps we don;t want todecide now

17:12:46 <mortenf> yeah?

17:13:00 <libby> I'm inclined to think we need to regroup a bit, decide priorities

17:13:38 <mortenf> well, the "we're done" list isn't closed yet...

17:13:47 <libby> no, true

17:14:29 <libby> M:see [how do we know when we're done|http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-calendar/2003Mar/0029.html]

17:14:29 <dc_rdfig> Added comment M1.

17:14:42 <libby> 1. round tripping iCalendar and RDF calendar was deemed essential.

17:14:42 <libby> For this we need an agreed target test suite

17:14:53 <mortenf> anyway, some three/four weeks from now perhaps?

17:14:54 <libby> - we definitely need to fix up the tz thing

17:15:00 <libby> too

17:15:18 <libby> 11 june?

17:15:27 <mortenf> sure

17:15:53 <mortenf> no confs?

17:16:03 <libby> we will plan for that then

17:16:12 <libby> it's rather far ahead and so I guessmay change

17:16:17 <zoyd> hello

17:16:45 <libby> none for me - june is quiet....

17:16:52 <mortenf> k.

17:16:59 <libby> we will tryi to make sure danc can make that one or one around then for discussio of roundtripping and timezones

17:17:07 <danbri> sorry i wasn't around much today. i'm still interested!

17:17:10 <libby> sound ok, pardner?

17:17:12 <mortenf> yeah, that'd be great.

17:17:18 <mortenf> :)

17:17:38 <zoyd> i'm looking for a vocabulary for a list of links/bookmarks. any suggestions?

17:17:40 <libby> cool :)

17:18:01 <mortenf> zoyd, dublin core?

17:18:35 <zoyd> mortenf: any samples?

17:18:51 <mortenf> anywhere! :)

17:18:59 <libby> M:probable date of next mmeeting [http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?day=11&month=6&year=2003&hour=16&min=0&sec=0&p1=0|Wednesday, June 11, 2003, at 16:00:00 UTC }

17:18:59 <dc_rdfig> Added comment M2.

17:19:07 <zoyd> mortenf: .. and would existing RSS/RDF readers handle such a link feed?

17:19:09 <mortenf> e.g. in rss feeds.

17:19:13 <libby> M2:probable date of next mmeeting [http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?day=11&month=6&year=2003&hour=16&min=0&sec=0&p1=0|Wednesday, June 11, 2003, at 16:00:00 UTC }

17:19:13 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment M2.

17:19:22 <libby> M2:probable date of next mmeeting [http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?day=11&month=6&year=2003&hour=16&min=0&sec=0&p1=0|Wednesday, June 11, 2003, at 16:00:00 UTC]

17:19:22 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment M2.

17:19:37 <libby> ------adjourned calendar meet------

17:19:41 <libby> cheers all :)

17:19:51 <mortenf> thanks libby.

17:19:52 <Kake> Thanks libby, good meeting.

17:20:13 <libby> cheers marten, kake, bill, nice talking with you all

17:20:23 <libby> s/marten/morten/

17:20:30 * wkearney99 waves

17:20:36 * libby can;t spell morten, not ever

17:20:39 <mortenf> zoyd, a list of links - isn't that basically rss?

17:20:42 * mortenf smiles.

17:20:55 <libby> need heirarchy?

17:21:15 <zoyd> mortenf: but there may or may not be any title.

17:21:17 <JibberJim> Doesn't mozilla store its bookmarks as RDF?

17:21:41 <libby> I guess there may not be a schema though

17:21:46 <zoyd> JibberJim: aah i was thinking on those lines too. but what about the existing RSS readers.

17:21:47 <mortenf> won't links always have titles (they MUST if it's html)

17:22:18 <libby> hello shellac

17:22:32 <mortenf> zoyd, what is your use case?

17:22:47 <zoyd> mortenf: you mean if a title/description isn't provided it should be sucked from the HTML page?

17:23:02 <mortenf> well, perhaps, that's another issue.

17:23:17 <zoyd> mortenf: use case: http://nodegroup.com/vinay/a2k/urls.html

17:24:33 <mortenf> hmm, seems like rss is a perfect fit (with dc), you can always fake a title - but it'd be better if it were posted along the link...

17:24:35 <katie> libby: I was a bit shy today, but am happy to talk about Chandler at the next calendar meet

17:24:49 * libby twigs

17:24:54 <mortenf> katie, that would be great.

17:24:54 <libby> that'd be great katie

17:25:05 <libby> great, that would be katie :)

17:25:13 * mortenf gives up.

17:25:32 <libby> ok, do you thinkyou can make the june 11th meet katie?

17:25:42 <katie> yes, I can do that

17:25:49 <libby> excellent

17:26:40 <zoyd> mortenf: how about fetching the title tag from the page to fill the RSS element?

17:26:59 <libby> M:possible agenda items: DanC on roundtripping; InterpretationProperties and timezones; Katie Capps Parlante on Chandler

17:26:59 <dc_rdfig> Added comment M3.

17:27:01 <mortenf> sure, that could work - and less manual work :)

17:27:22 <earle> earle is now known as grault

17:27:38 <zoyd> cool :)

17:28:19 <mortenf> (actually, but don't tell anyone: when the semweb is going, rss won't need a title property, since the document will already be described with a title)

17:28:35 <zoyd> I'm also looking for a vocab. to represent library like info .. CDs, books .. something a user group would need.

17:29:05 <zoyd> the title myth.

17:29:06 <mortenf> hmm, for cds see musicbrainz.

17:29:28 <libby> bye all, gotta go

17:29:33 <mortenf> bye.

17:29:37 <katie> bye

17:33:42 <zoyd> i just checked the musicbrainz spec. it's more audio/video type. instead of general purpose.

17:38:13 <wkearney99> isn't there some MARC record work that would help? a combination of several vocabularies is probably in order.

17:43:02 <zool> hrm i have a foaf:depicts triple and it would be nice to represent node rdf:type as something richer than a rdf:Description in the xml - foaf:Image or something?

17:43:34 <mortenf> i use foaf:Image.

17:43:46 * JibberJim leaves it anonymous

17:43:54 <JibberJim> untyped

17:44:15 <mortenf> yeah, it's inferred by depiction anyway...

17:44:43 <JibberJim> no it's not, it could be a video, or audio file...

17:45:39 <mortenf> i mean, the rdfs:range of depiction is foaf:Image.

17:45:48 <JibberJim> is it? rats... :-)

17:45:58 <mortenf> :)

17:46:17 * JibberJim is pretty sure he's used it for other media types.

17:47:42 * DanCon wonders if the RDF calendar meeting decided to do anything in particular in budapest

17:47:52 <mortenf> well, since foaf:Image is not defined anywhere, it could be anything...

17:47:55 <Morbus> the calendar thing on the new ipod rocks.

17:48:31 <mortenf> DanC, no decisions, since no participants present (well, actually I suggested you and libby went for a beer...)

17:49:26 <JibberJim> hmm, that's a little odd, there's nothing in my triple store that's the subject of depicts that isn't a .jpg extension... that seems suspicious

17:49:31 <_joshua> we managed to fuck up our ipod already by syncing calendars

17:49:35 <_joshua> already needed to call apple techsup

17:50:06 <Morbus> _joshua: oh? what happened?

17:52:22 <JibberJim> Ah in use zool, it's currently a foaf:image or a RSS 1.0 item (from MattB presumably)

17:52:46 <JibberJim> 596 item/296 image

17:53:03 <_joshua> morbus: the mac corrupted its calendar file, but didn't error

17:53:11 <_joshua> then it synced the corrupted file to the ipod, which barfed

17:53:29 <mortenf> mine are both (item and Image)

17:53:30 <_joshua> it thought it had X gigs, where X was like 15 digits

17:58:11 <Morbus> _joshua: ew. that's insane.

17:58:28 <Morbus> you couldn't mount the iPod and delete the file manually?

17:59:10 <ROMOE> hi

18:00:36 <Esaj> how're things progressing with the rdf/calendar stuff?

18:00:52 <zool> thx JibberJim

18:01:53 <Esaj> hehe, I just realised I missed the meeting :)

18:09:17 <robProuse> robProuse is now known as rprouse

18:12:56 * Qdragon ponders his geospacial existance and reads along

18:23:58 * JibberJim ponders on Qdragons existance at all, as there are no dragons in those parts of the semweb I can see...

18:27:20 * Esaj ponders the existance of the semweb

18:29:12 <remote> Hi

18:29:31 <Esaj> Lo

18:31:03 <remote> anyone's using or have used rdiff ?

18:31:13 <remote> rdiff-backup*

18:59:06 * DanCon reviews logs of RDF calendar meeting; seems to be libby meeting all by herself

19:18:14 * eikeon waves to edd

19:18:33 <edd> hey there, how's things

19:18:57 <eikeon> Pretty good... have not seen you 'round here for a while.

19:19:38 <edd> Been shuffling a big stack of stuff :) Spare time spent in the gnome + bluetooth worlds at the moment

19:19:47 <edd> But gearing back up into some time in the RDF world soon

19:19:48 <eikeon> Neat.

19:20:32 <edd> conversations at xml europe have reinvigorated me somewhat

19:20:43 <edd> and hopefully www2003 will have a positive effect

19:21:35 * DanCon waves to edd, having seen just a few bits from XML Europe, wondering if there are lots of interesting things I missed.

19:21:52 <edd> DanCon: oh *loads* :) happily most of them are coming to www2003 too !

19:22:34 <DanCon> any XML Europe coverage to recommend?

19:23:00 <DanCon> I was pleased to see DV keynoting.

19:23:07 <edd> It's not really been written yet. Being chair, I didn't really have time or want to write the coverage myself. Several folk are working on bits, which I'm hoping to collate.

19:23:21 <edd> DV - yeah

19:23:29 * DanCon saw a trip report from LiamQ; he's great to have around!

19:23:53 <dajobe> i think DV and LiamQ both mentioned it in their advodiaries

19:23:59 <edd> several other presentations, including both of the other keynotes, made strong noises about open source too

19:27:02 <edd> another reason i'm visiting here is to brag about the updates to the chumpbot we have in progress

19:27:18 <edd> i've turned its insides unicode, so it groks utf-8 irc now

19:27:32 <edd> a lot of irc clients seem to speak utf-8, so this seems like a useful feature

19:29:17 <deltab> what happens if it can't decode a string as UTF-8?

19:29:34 <edd> it assumes it's latin 1

19:29:49 <edd> and transcodes appropriately.

19:30:07 <edd> i'm guessing that in most cases this will produce the desired result.

19:32:26 * DanCon has seen xchat choke on non-ascii; wonders if/when it'll get with the times

19:32:41 <edd> xchat2 works great with utf-8, is what i'm using

19:36:26 <edd> DanCon: did you have any more thoughts on www2003 keysigning past what i saw on the rdfig chump?

19:38:18 <DanCon> uh... sorta

19:38:39 <DanCon> I want it to happen; it seems like a good opportunity to seed something.

19:38:47 <DanCon> but I don't really know what

19:39:50 <edd> well, fwiw, i'll have a bunch of bits of paper with 'gpg --fingerprint edd | lpr' on 'em

19:40:12 <edd> seems if we have at least a few more formal signatures it might be a useful dataset for further play