Semantic Web Interest Group IRC Chat Logs for 2003-05-28

00:39:27 <edd> bah, more netsplits than content

00:51:51 <sethl_lap> in n3, I'd like to add statements to a formula that is the result of a log:implies. Something like { ?x :spam :eggs } => { ?y :foo :bar } ^:delay "30" . But cwm doesn't like that. Is there a better way to say that?

00:52:10 <sethl_lap> er.., ignore the '^' char, that's cwm error msg.

00:53:49 <sethl_lap> I think this is it: { ?x :spam :eggs } => {{ ?y :foo :bar } :delay "30" } .

00:57:26 <sethl_lap> perfect, bless cwm

01:37:31 <bitsko> [OT] when developing highly interactive web applications, has anyone ever found it possible to completely seperate web page design from back end development?

01:38:37 <bitsko> I'm in a situation where a customer is asking for a database web app, but wanting complete control over the web page design and a complete lack of interest in working with any of the tools I'd use (templating, ASP/PHP/PSP, etc.)

01:38:41 <edd> bitsko: i'd be surprised if anywayone has

01:39:04 <edd> bitsko: customers suck :(

01:39:21 <bitsko> heh

01:39:31 <edd> still, take the money and run :)

01:44:18 <edd> can you fox them? ie. give them control over appearance but retain interaction control?

01:49:11 <bitsko> dunno yet. still in negotiations. the difficult part is that the guy actually talking to them face-to-face doesn't know the tools as well as I do, so there's translation-loss. supposedly these folks are a mature web design group, so they couldn't have *not* done stuff like this before

01:49:48 <bitsko> it may just be "my" guy's misunderstanding of the tools

01:50:17 <bitsko> I just have to make sure that *I'm* not off the block on the subject ;)

01:51:17 <edd> bitsko: sympathy. such things suck :(

01:51:51 <bitsko> thx :)

01:56:42 * edd resolves to go to bed before dawn today

01:56:46 <edd> only an hour to go

01:57:12 <bitsko> .time UTC

01:57:12 <datum> 2003-05-28T01:57:12

02:12:58 * edd expires

09:04:54 <mortenf> hey libby.

09:05:09 <mortenf> what's the status on the char this afternoon?

09:05:13 <libby> morning mortenf

09:05:14 <mortenf> s/char/chat/

09:05:21 <libby> eh?

09:05:24 <libby> chat?

09:05:27 <libby> uh-oh

09:05:28 <mortenf> geo

09:05:55 <libby> hm, danbri is on leave in BUD so he won;t be able to make it....

09:06:16 <mortenf> not that I hold you responsible in any way, but you always seem to be :)

09:06:26 <libby> uh-oh

09:06:28 <libby> ;)

09:06:37 <ericP> danbri's got no connectivity

09:06:55 <mortenf> anyway, i've been talking with chris goad re gml/rdf, but we're nowhere finished...

09:06:56 <libby> uh hullo ericp. made it to fr?

09:07:05 <ericP> he's stranded on a boat in the danube

09:07:07 <libby> oh cool mortenf

09:07:12 <ericP> yup, no prob with passport

09:07:24 <ericP> except a couple of smirks and raised eyebrows

09:07:25 <mortenf> perhaps we could/should postpone the chat, or is that not standard procedure?

09:07:38 <libby> there is no standard proceedure ;)

09:07:42 <mortenf> heh.

09:07:59 <libby> but if a lot of people are expecting it, we shoudl maybe go ahead. should give people a week's notice really...

09:08:14 <mortenf> yeah, ok, let's do it!

09:08:23 * libby doubts that I'll have time to do an agenda etc

09:08:45 <ericP> what time is the meeting?

09:08:48 <libby> ok, let's dig out the old notes and chump them, see what we got

09:08:52 * ericP tries to schedule lunch

09:08:52 <mortenf> me neither, been way busy lately.

09:09:01 <libby> lemmee have a look

09:09:03 <mortenf> ericP: 1500 UTC.

09:09:05 <ericP> tx

09:10:05 <libby> when was the last one?

09:13:11 <libby> 30th april maybe? http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/2003/04/30/2003-04-30.html

09:13:24 <libby> yep

09:13:53 <libby> BLURB:geo meet today

09:13:53 <dc_rdfig> A: geo meet today from libby

09:14:29 <libby> A:[http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?day=28&month=5&year=2003&hour=15&min=0&sec=0&p1=0|2003-05-28, 1500UTC]

09:14:30 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A1.

09:15:02 <libby> A:[last meeting's chump, serving as meeting records|http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/2003/04/30/2003-04-30.html]

09:15:03 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A2.

09:15:21 <mortenf> great, at least some people will see and show up (hopefully) - agenda item #1: next meeting :)

09:16:44 <libby> A:"Agenda to include WWW2003 debrief and ACTION status from today's actions"

09:16:44 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A3.

09:17:25 <libby> A:[previous ACTION ChrisGoad (with MortenF) to propose next steps re showing interop between GML and RDF/SVG-based systems]

09:17:25 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A4.

09:18:08 <libby> A:[previous Continuing ACTION danbri produce some sample chef-moz based data using onion + wgs_84 vocab]

09:18:08 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A5.

09:18:34 <libby> A:[previous chatlogs|http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2003-04-30#T14-01-40]

09:18:35 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A6.

09:18:54 <libby> mortenf, think you can update us on what you've been doing with chris g?

09:19:15 <libby> (you might be the only action item!)

09:19:29 <libby> I think jim ley maybe offline too at the moment

09:19:53 <libby> morning nmg, how's it going?

09:23:32 <nmg> not so bad

09:23:52 <nmg> rewriting the web conference paper for journal publication

09:24:02 <libby> ooh, cool

09:25:05 <mea_culpa> mea_culpa is now known as EdTivrsky

09:26:46 <nmg> on a separate note, what tools are there for translating from ical to the nascent rdf calendar vocabularies?

09:27:30 <mortenf> libby, i'll be there for a (short) update, perhaps chris will be there as well.

09:28:21 <libby> we have http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/ical2rdf.pl nmg; also http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/2003/02/cal/ in java

09:28:30 <libby> cool, thanks mortenf

09:28:44 <libby> we better find some more agenda items....

09:29:38 <libby> nmg, I/we would be interested in feedback if you try either. we are thinking of winding down the rdfcal work. I'm going to have a go at summarising what we've done.

09:29:47 <libby> A:more agenda items welcome

09:29:48 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A7.

09:34:03 <tav> tav is now known as tav|offline

10:22:38 <edd> BLURB:random wishlist project of the day

10:22:38 <dc_rdfig> B: random wishlist project of the day from edd

10:23:00 <edd> B:i'd like to see bugzilla and other issue tracking systems get semweb enabled. the basic change would be to use a URI as the bug number

10:23:00 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B1.

10:23:45 <edd> B:it's frustrating that the Debian, GNOME and Mozilla bug systems are all separate. The history of a bug often spans two or three of these systems.

10:23:45 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B2.

10:57:03 <tav|offline> tav|offline is now known as tav

13:00:54 <swh_away> swh_away is now known as swh

13:23:24 <chrisgoad> Chris: Concerning GML interop see [rdf and gml|http://www.mapbureau.com/rdfmap1.0/gml.html]

13:23:50 <libby> thanks chris

13:24:01 <chrisgoad> Chris: Also see RDF [geometry spec|http://www.mapbureau.com/rdfgeom2d1.0/revision2.html], which ports the purely geometric part of SVG into RDF.

13:24:22 <chrisgoad> Chris: These docs are in preliminary form!

13:25:09 <libby> chris, were you trying to chump those?

13:25:54 <chrisgoad> Yes; sorry about chat incompetence

13:26:15 <chrisgoad> The instructions doc is missing right now, and I forgot from last time.

13:26:39 <libby> I think your irc client is autocompleting chis for C:

13:26:50 <libby> you nede to start it with either BLURB: or a url i think

13:27:44 <chrisgoad> So how about topic A: - would that be ok?

13:27:50 <nmg> xchat is p[articualry bad for that - the default config is autocomplete

13:28:22 <libby> I'm not sure...

13:29:48 <chrisgoad> Topic B:?

13:30:37 <libby> - http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache:4OVeiitCvPQJ:usefulinc.com/chump/MANUAL.txt+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

13:31:15 <libby> - doesn;t appear so....

13:31:38 <chrisgoad> Got it; thanks

13:34:07 <chrisgoad> <a href="http://www.mapbureau.com/rdfmap1.0/gml.html">http://www.mapbureau.com/rdfmap1.0/gml.html</a>

13:35:38 <libby> hm, I'm not sure that that p[age is correct - looks a bit strange

13:35:57 <_joshua> That mapbureau stuff terrifies me.

13:36:21 <chrisgoad> Just trying to follow directions - but failing, I guess :<

13:36:54 <libby> lemmee have a go?

13:37:00 <chrisgoad> Pleeease

13:37:06 <libby> heh

13:37:43 <libby> BLURB:GML and RDF geo interop links (from chris goad)

13:37:49 <dc_rdfig> C: GML and RDF geo interop links (from chris goad) from libby

13:38:00 <libby> C:Concerning GML interop see [rdf and gml|http://www.mapbureau.com/rdfmap1.0/gml.html]

13:38:01 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C1.

13:38:16 <libby> C:Also see RDF [geometry spec|http://www.mapbureau.com/rdfgeom2d1.0/revision2.html], which ports the purely geometric part of SVG into RDF.

13:38:23 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C2.

13:38:27 <libby> C:These docs are in preliminary form!

13:38:29 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C3.

13:38:36 <chrisgoad> Thanks!

13:38:38 <libby> heh

13:38:47 <libby> you'er welcome

13:39:14 <libby> you were along the right lines....

13:40:24 <chrisgoad> Ok, now I think I've got blurbing down - just read a little further in the doc

14:45:52 <ronwalf> jordan: I'm heading in at somepoint not too long from now

14:50:37 <mortenf> .time

14:54:00 <datum> Wed, 28 May 2003 14:49:15 GMT

14:54:00 <mortenf> hmm.

14:54:00 <mortenf> chris?

14:54:00 <chrisgoad> hello

14:54:00 <mortenf> hi!

14:54:00 <mortenf> do you think you could recap our discussion so far at the meeting, i've got to go?

14:54:00 <mortenf> also, i wouldn't mind continuing our action.

14:54:00 <chrisgoad> sure, that would be good

14:54:00 <chrisgoad> Meanwhile, a tiny summary of what we've done is:

14:54:00 <chrisgoad> We debated the interpreted value / interpreted properties issue - the

14:54:00 <chrisgoad> debate continues. (We meaning of course Morten and I). We're also

14:54:00 <mortenf> you might want to wait until the meeting starts (in 10m) - thanks a lot, and ttyl.

14:54:00 <mortenf> exit

15:03:54 <libby> .time

15:03:54 <datum> Wed, 28 May 2003 15:00:16 GMT

15:03:54 <libby> ------geo meet------

15:03:54 * ericP snaps to attention

15:03:54 <_joshua> urf

15:03:54 <libby> - see http://rdfig.xmlhack.com for agenda (A)

15:03:54 <ericP> oh wait, wrong meeting

15:03:54 <libby> :)

15:03:54 <libby> I don;t anticipate this will be a long meet; unfortunately becaues of WWW2003 we don;t have a large agenda

15:03:54 <libby> chrisgoad has offered to talk about his discussions with mortenf about GML/RDF interop though, which is excellent

15:03:54 <chrisgoad> Let me know when.

15:03:54 * DanCon saw some confusing info about next meeting being on the 30th...

15:03:54 <libby> BLURB:geo meet agenda item (D): GML and RDF interop (see also C,A)

15:03:54 <DanCon> ah; that was 30 April

15:03:54 <dc_rdfig> D: geo meet agenda item (D): GML and RDF interop (see also C,A) from libby

15:03:54 <libby> right, the last one...

15:03:54 <libby> A:attending [libby miller|http://ilrt.org/people/libby/]

15:03:54 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A8.

15:03:54 <DanCon> A:see also [http://esw.w3.org/topic/GeoInfo|esw:GeoInfo]

15:03:54 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A9.

15:03:56 <libby> coudl attendees add their names to A?

15:04:01 <DanCon> .time

15:04:02 <datum> Wed, 28 May 2003 15:04:01 GMT

15:04:04 <chrisgoad> A:Chris Goad

15:04:04 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A10.

15:04:14 <libby> A:regrets - Dan Brickley

15:04:14 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A11.

15:04:20 <libby> thanks

15:04:29 <DanCon> A:[http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/|Dan Connolly] attending

15:04:29 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A12.

15:04:33 <libby> chrisgoad, go ahead

15:04:37 <libby> thanks :)

15:04:40 <chrisgoad> Ok

15:04:48 <chrisgoad> Morten and I debated the interpreted values/ interpreted properties issue

15:04:54 <iand> A:Ian Davis

15:04:54 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A13.

15:05:11 <chrisgoad> The debate continues. (I wonder if I should write our positions up.)

15:05:27 <chrisgoad> Also, we've been looking into sources of GML for use cases.

15:05:42 <libby> that's cool: find any?

15:05:42 <chrisgoad> GML isn't used all that much yet in practical GIS; there's a lot

15:06:11 <chrisgoad> more shapefile data - eg. Libby - yes some, eg the UK ordinance org (forgot

15:06:14 <chrisgoad> the full name)

15:06:35 <chrisgoad> I wonder, while we're on the subject, what the opinion is about

15:06:47 <chrisgoad> translation from some of those more common formats.

15:07:04 <DanCon> "... whereas GML is a mature effort" says http://www.mapbureau.com/rdfmap1.0/gml.html ; what cool things are folks doing with GML?

15:07:27 <chrisgoad> Well, there have been a series of interop demos between various

15:07:43 <chrisgoad> participants in the opengis consortium - where they prove ability to

15:08:02 <chrisgoad> send data back and forth. I'm not actually an insider to the gml world;

15:08:14 <chrisgoad> we mostly use shapefiles etc ourselves.

15:08:37 <chrisgoad> I can get a link (with a short search) which points to all of the

15:08:52 <_joshua> There's a good library for for conversion

15:08:54 <chrisgoad> organizations using gis standards, which includes of course gml.

15:09:12 <libby> all links very welcome chrisgoad

15:09:25 <chrisgoad> I'll post that in a bit, but finish my very short report now.

15:09:29 <_joshua> GDAL/OGR

15:09:36 <_joshua>http://gdal.velocet.ca/projects/opengis/

15:09:36 <dc_rdfig> E: http://gdal.velocet.ca/projects/opengis/ from _joshua

15:09:41 <libby> thanks

15:09:49 <chrisgoad> As you'll see from the docs I posted, I've been working along on

15:10:10 <chrisgoad> my approach to putting enough geometry in rdf to support gmlish activity.

15:10:17 * DanCon would like links chumped under the relevant agendum

15:10:32 <chrisgoad> I'm very interested in reactions.

15:11:11 * DanCon skips down to "An example" section; tries to get his head around it

15:11:23 * darobin thinks it would be great

15:11:59 <DanCon> it=??

15:12:02 <libby> D:see also [ttp://gdal.velocet.ca/projects/opengis/|open GID]

15:12:02 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D1.

15:12:23 <darobin> it=better links between GML and RDF

15:12:39 <chrisgoad> D:[open gis projects companies |http://www.opengis.org/testing/product/index.php

15:12:40 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D2.

15:12:42 <chrisgoad> ]

15:13:58 * DanCon is having trouble relating this to stuff I work with, like travel itineraries, conference announcements

15:14:34 <chrisgoad> Well, my notion is that you can assert properties about all kinds

15:14:52 <chrisgoad> of things like iteneraries, conferences whatever on geometric objects

15:15:13 <chrisgoad> That's one reason for regarding the geomtric things as interpreted

15:15:18 <chrisgoad> rather than pure.

15:15:35 <libby> D:[RDFmap|http://www.mapbureau.com/rdfmap1.0/revision2.html]

15:15:35 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D3.

15:15:56 <chrisgoad> Thanks libby.

15:16:25 <libby> so chrisgoad, have you done any stuff with converters for shapefiles to rdfmap?

15:16:26 <chrisgoad> You'll note the absence of cyc terms - I looked at cyc but didn't find

15:16:29 <chrisgoad> exact matches.

15:16:49 <chrisgoad> About shapefiles: I've already got shapefile parsers and other

15:17:00 <DanCon> hmm... yes, of course I can assert properties of things like itineraries; I do that routinely.

15:17:02 <chrisgoad> helpful machinery, so it would be a quick job; not done yet tho

15:17:39 <libby> right

15:17:57 <chrisgoad> Approach: assert that this geometry is that itenerary, and then assert

15:17:59 <chrisgoad> properties freely

15:18:29 <DanCon> is there any running code I can play with? or piles of data to exploit? maybe that would help me get my head around what you're up to.

15:18:34 <chrisgoad> DanCon, URLs for the itenerary work?

15:18:59 <chrisgoad> There are certainly piles of shapefiles, which I can post.

15:19:14 <chrisgoad> If it's thought of near term interest, I can go ahead with

15:19:35 <libby> so explain a bit more about shapefiles?

15:19:37 <chrisgoad> shapefile-> rdfgeom+rdfmap, thereby providing a pile of RDF as well

15:19:44 <libby> I played with them a while back

15:19:55 <DanCon> D:I wrote up my travel tool stuff for a WWW2003 tutorial: [http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/0520-www-tf1-d3-travel/|slides]

15:19:56 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D4.

15:20:08 <chrisgoad> Well, shapefile is an ancient format invented by ESRI, but still probably

15:20:26 <chrisgoad> the most common exchange format. Its only polyline, polygons, no curves

15:20:41 <DanCon> pointer to shapefile for, say, Budapest?

15:20:41 <chrisgoad> and uses associated dbf file to assert non-geo data

15:20:43 <DanCon> or Vancouver?

15:21:04 <libby> is it all lines? how do you indicate the space defined by the lines?

15:21:06 <DanCon> or the holy grail: shapefiles delimiting timezones?

15:21:12 <libby> ooh

15:21:20 <chrisgoad> Sure I can get these together later today. I'll post a link

15:21:36 <libby> thanks chrisgoad

15:21:36 <DanCon> 'these' including timezone shapefiles???

15:21:38 <chrisgoad> Shapefiles include polygons, but that's about it

15:22:04 <collord> DanCon: http://fri.sfasu.edu/data/geographic/world/shape/timezone.shp

15:22:06 <libby> so does rdfmap have polygons? are they maps?

15:22:09 <chrisgoad> I would be surprised if there weren't a timezone shapefile out there

15:22:15 <chrisgoad> See!

15:22:19 <libby> :)

15:22:37 <DanCon> how about some shapefile-consuming-code, or some file format documentation?

15:22:43 <chrisgoad> rdfgeom which does this kind of work for rdfmap does what svg does; you

15:22:50 <libby> so shapefiles are binary things? need particular code

15:22:59 <DanCon> phpht. my browser crashed when I pointed it at timezone.shp

15:23:03 <chrisgoad> get to define shapes with holes, using splines etc

15:23:30 <collord> DanCon: you'll need the .dbf .shx files as well, navigate to the directory

15:23:34 <chrisgoad> I'll post the link to the shapefile format too, once the current

15:23:39 <chrisgoad> flurry of discussion is over

15:23:51 <libby> D:[(binary) shapefile for timeszones|http://fri.sfasu.edu/data/geographic/world/shape/timezone.shp]

15:23:51 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D5.

15:24:13 * DanCon finds 2002/12/cal/tzgeo/timeznp020.shp in his CVS workspace

15:25:09 <collord> if you don't like gdal/C looks like this java libraries would be a decent place to start http://www.mycgiserver.com/~amri/converter/converter.html

15:25:32 <DanCon> gdal/C?

15:25:49 <libby> so chrisgoad, what's your guess about how to proceed woith this stuff and RDF? do you and mortenf have plans about what to do next?

15:26:25 <chrisgoad> not very specific plans. I'd personally like to get some data into rdf.

15:26:41 <chrisgoad> What do you all think?

15:26:48 <libby> what's the format of teh data - shapefiles?

15:26:53 <DanCon> googling for shapefile yields "ESRI Shapefile Technical Description" http://www.esri.com/library/whitepapers/pdfs/shapefile.pdf

15:27:00 <chrisgoad> Yes, that's it

15:27:06 <DanCon> and "Java Shapefile Reader" http://www.geog.leeds.ac.uk/pgrads/j.macgill/java/JavaShapefile.html

15:27:17 <chrisgoad> It's a simple binary format

15:27:19 <libby> what do you want to do with it in RDF chris? (curious)

15:27:33 <DanCon> D:[http://www.esri.com/library/whitepapers/pdfs/shapefile.pdf|ESRI Shapefile Technical Description] (pdf)

15:27:34 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D6.

15:27:47 <chrisgoad> Well, we're annotating geographical points with things like blog entries,

15:27:59 <chrisgoad> and I want to extend this to more complex geometry - starting with

15:28:10 <chrisgoad> curves describing travel paths

15:28:32 <libby> have you seen jim ley's stuff? http://jibbering.com/travels/

15:29:05 <libby> do you have example data we could look at for the blog thing you have?

15:29:11 <chrisgoad> I saw his image annotation stuff, but I guess I didn't see travels; will look

15:29:30 <_joshua> It's too bad that no blog tools have metadata support.

15:29:38 <chrisgoad> Just go to www.mapbureu.com, and look at usermaps

15:29:50 <chrisgoad> (one of the headings on the front page)

15:29:53 <DanCon> how are shapefiles created?

15:30:11 <DanCon> any idea about license terms for the http://fri.sfasu.edu/data/geographic/world/shape/ data?

15:30:13 <darobin> and also jo walsh's collaborative mapping at http://space.frot.org/, she has been working on an "en route" mode for itinaries

15:30:16 <chrisgoad> First of all, by ESRI software, but now every GIS package has

15:30:21 <chrisgoad> shapefile output capability

15:30:25 <_joshua> Shapefiles are i believe a free format at thispoint

15:30:35 <_joshua> Pretty much everyhing emits and consumes them.

15:30:39 <chrisgoad> Right

15:30:56 <DanCon> so the file format is free; but what about that sfasu.edu data?

15:31:15 <libby> D:see also [jim ley's travel info|http://jibbering.com/travels/] and [jo walsh's space namespace work|http://space.frot.org/]

15:31:15 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D7.

15:31:15 <DanCon> hmm... http://fri.sfasu.edu/data/geographic/world/shape/timezone.shp.xml

15:31:31 <libby> I remember finding a lot of free shapefile data about the US a while back

15:31:45 <_joshua> Yeah, it's all based on TIGER/LINE

15:31:59 <_joshua> also the nice federal govt GIS metadata standards

15:32:11 <chrisgoad> If you're willing to pay for the cds, you can get the whole us at street-level

15:32:15 <chrisgoad> detail in shapefile format

15:32:28 <libby> wow...

15:32:30 <chrisgoad> Also world data, at somewhat lesser detail

15:32:32 <libby> for the US

15:32:33 <libby> ?

15:32:34 <_joshua> No, it's freely downloadable.

15:32:54 <chrisgoad> In tiger its free; is there free shapefile also? (we got the cds for

15:32:58 <_joshua> TIGER published the data in their own format and ESRI lets you download it as shapefiles for free

15:33:06 <chrisgoad> convenience, ive forgotten if there was a fee download)

15:33:17 <chrisgoad> Ok, sounds right

15:33:35 <DanCon> "<accconst>Access granted to Licensee only.</accconst>" from timezone.shp.xml

15:33:46 <chrisgoad> Anyway, there is no shortage of the stuff

15:34:34 <libby> like the http://www.mapbureau.com/flashindex.html stuff chris....can;t see the metadata....

15:34:53 <_joshua> There's tons and tons of stuff.

15:35:29 <chrisgoad> Oh, I should put an RDF button in the published versions of blogs

15:35:47 <libby> that'd be excellent :)

15:35:49 <chrisgoad> If you use our editor, there is such a button (rss2 right now, rdf soon)

15:36:18 <chrisgoad> It's all rdf under the hood, though - just have to remove the hood

15:36:22 <libby> hey zool

15:36:25 <zool> hi libby

15:36:34 <zool> oop didnt realise i was missing a geo meet today

15:36:38 <_joshua> I think the underlying format for shapefiles is dbase anyway

15:36:59 <libby> zool not your fault, we didn;t send a mail round

15:37:03 <_joshua> hey jo

15:37:09 <chrisgoad> No, not quite. shapefiles usually come along with a companion dbf

15:37:21 <zool> hi hi

15:37:24 <chrisgoad> file that asserts feature data, but the shapefile itself is a separate format

15:37:27 * zool exploring chrisgoad's links

15:37:28 <DanCon> phpht. timezone.shp.xml doesn't seem to have the actual data to map places to timezones. just metadata.

15:38:19 <mattb> heya zool

15:38:28 <zool> DanCon sure, that's a cross-referencing exercise i suppose?

15:38:40 * zool wonders how one gets stuff out of a .shp without arcview

15:38:42 <zool> hey mattb

15:39:12 * DanCon wonders if there's python support for .dbf files around...

15:39:50 <zool> oh, i see

15:40:02 <chrisgoad> There are, eg, .shp to .gml converters.

15:40:22 <DanCon> "dbview - View dBase III files" says apt-cache search dbf

15:40:23 <chrisgoad> Not for free, though, to my knowledge (which is probably inadequate)

15:40:58 <iand> D:[http://search.cpan.org/author/JASONK/Geo-ShapeFile-2.10/|Perl ShapeFile module]

15:41:00 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D8.

15:41:06 <_joshua> zool: gdal/ogr

15:41:20 <_joshua> there are plenty of ways to read shapefiles

15:41:29 <_joshua> I've had luck with OGR

15:41:57 <zool> then the problem is open geodata, which you have in US, but most places in the rest of the world do not

15:42:07 <zool> without a legit source of shape files, not so useful

15:42:07 <chrisgoad> d: [shapefile to gml, and svg |http://www.geotools.org]

15:42:21 <zool> case-sensitive

15:42:25 <libby> chrisgoad, try with a capital D: and no sapce...

15:42:30 <DanCon> gdal/ogr? (that's the 2nd time I've seen gdal metioned; hurl me an url, please?)

15:42:34 <DanCon> .google gdal

15:42:36 <datum> gdal: http://remotesensing.org/gdal/formats_list.html

15:43:23 <chrisgoad> D:[shapefile to gml, and svg |http://www.geotools.org]

15:43:23 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D9.

15:43:26 <libby> D:[http://geotools.sourceforge.net/|geotools sourceforget project]

15:43:26 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D10.

15:43:29 <libby> heh

15:43:36 <chrisgoad> Thanks for the chat help, DanCon

15:43:40 <_joshua> GDAL is raster formats. OGR is actually what you want; vector formats. They come with the same library

15:45:12 <DanCon> shapefile->svg doodad from geotools looks nifty; http://www.mycgiserver.com/~amri/converter/converter.html

15:45:19 <DanCon> I wonder if I have enough java mojo to run it

15:45:47 <chrisgoad> D:[vector data for the world from NIMA|http://www.nima.mil/publications/vmap0.html]

15:45:47 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D11.

15:49:27 * DanCon grabs batik...

15:50:47 <libby> thanks very much for talking to us chrisgoad

15:51:12 * DanCon is happy that batik seems to be working

15:51:17 <chrisgoad> My pleasure

15:52:47 <libby> we have 10 mins left - anyone else like to talk about anything...? or shall we finish...?

15:53:04 <iand> D:[http://www.cdc.gov/epiinfo/EIeurope.htm|Europe Shapefiles (by country)]

15:53:04 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D12.

15:53:32 <DanCon> I'm still curious about chump conventions for formalized where/when info

15:53:44 <DanCon> e.g. http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/2003/05/27/2003-05-27.html#1054067536.452661

15:54:11 <_joshua> It seems like one would desire a trivial pastable type of RDF

15:54:23 <_joshua> Like you paste a URL or tag, it gives you a handle, and then you attach predicates to those handles

15:54:25 <DanCon> that's what N3 is for.

15:54:38 <_joshua> In an IRC channel?

15:54:54 <_joshua> is there an n3 tutorial anywhere?

15:55:00 <DanCon> N3 is, pretty much, a formalization of the ways folks try to write RDF in IRC

15:55:00 <_joshua> seems like one would want an n3 bot

15:55:05 <zool>http://frot.org/space/0.1/index.rdf

15:55:05 <dc_rdfig> F: http://frot.org/space/0.1/index.rdf from zool

15:55:12 * DanCon wrote an n3 bot; it's a bit crufty..

15:55:20 <zool> F:space ontology that i'm using

15:55:20 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F1.

15:55:22 <DanCon> .google swBot

15:55:22 <datum> swBot: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2000/scribe-bot/

15:55:26 <libby> wasn;t bijan working on something like that? a generic rdf chump?

15:55:27 * sbp` too, somewhere

15:55:30 <zool> F:|spatial ontology

15:55:31 <dc_rdfig> Titled item F.

15:55:34 <_joshua> heh heh

15:55:41 <sbp`> .google chumpette

15:55:42 <datum> chumpette: http://www.peelified.com/cgi-bin/GetBio/chumpette

15:55:45 <sbp`> hmm

15:55:45 <mattb> the semantichimp

15:55:49 <libby> :)

15:56:01 <mattb> *cough*vapourware ;)

15:56:11 <zool> F:this is based on the GNS classification codes used at [http://www.nima.mil/gns/html|nima]

15:56:11 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F2.

15:56:14 <zool> hehe

15:56:39 <libby> it would be incredibly useful for events

15:56:42 <_joshua> Looks like OGR speaks GML incidentally

15:56:50 <_joshua> -f format_name: output file format name, possible values are:

15:56:50 <_joshua> -f "ESRI Shapefile"

15:56:50 <_joshua> -f "TIGER"

15:56:50 <_joshua> -f "MapInfo File"

15:56:50 <_joshua> -f "DGN"

15:56:50 <DanCon> ok, let's pretend dc_rdfig groks N3.

15:56:51 <_joshua> -f "GML"

15:57:05 <zool> F:i'd like to open this up to public editing and contribution / put in a space with more gravitas

15:57:05 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F3.

15:57:28 <DanCon> ok, let's pretend dc_rdfig groks N3... then how do I formalize the info about the UML event in Burlingame?

15:57:44 * DanCon looks up 'gravitas'

15:57:49 <zool> heh

15:58:05 <_joshua> actually what I really want is an IRC server that dumps a short conversation log from before you joined a channel. Hrr

15:58:15 <zool> i had a bot editing interface for it, but it has bitrot now

15:58:49 <libby> DanCon, can't use rdfcal?

15:58:51 <sbp`> _joshua: try dircproxy, perhaps? it's a client solution, not server...

15:58:58 <sbp`> .google dircproxy

15:59:02 <datum> dircproxy: http://www.dircproxy.net/

15:59:02 <DanCon> can't? dunno...

15:59:24 <libby> I suppose it woudl be a bit lengthy. useful to ahve a shorthand for it

16:00:04 <eikeon> DanCon: I can add a few commands to eikco to work along with chump to snag event info... if there is an easy syntax for entering them that people will use?

16:00:07 <DanCon> phpht... the title of http://www.omg.org/news/meetings/uml2003/index.htm is kinda confused... is it "UML Workshop Index" or "OMG's 4th Annual Workshop on UML For Enterprise Applications: Delivering the Promise of MDA"? oh well...

16:00:30 <DanCon> easy syntax: that's what I wanna brainstorm on right now.

16:00:31 <libby> there's this sort of thing: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/200211/swconferences/events1.html and an xslt converter to rdfcal in rss that you helped me with....

16:00:38 <libby> ah, ok

16:01:07 <DanCon> I have evidence that people will use the syntax "WHERE: Burlingame, CA"

16:01:15 <DanCon> i.e. I copied/pasted that from the announcement email

16:01:22 <libby> ah, that's cool

16:01:24 <sandro> _joshua, I use dircproxy rather happily, although it's not perfect.

16:01:31 <libby> WHEN is a bit trickier

16:01:40 <DanCon> WHEN: June 23-26, 2003

16:01:40 <dc_rdfig> Label WHEN not found.

16:01:56 <zool> we'd thought on #bots abot implementing WHEN in squish

16:02:09 <zool> never followed it through though

16:02:11 <DanCon> this being an international forum, I think "WHERE: Burlingame, CA, USA" should be required. no fair defaulting to the USA

16:02:13 <sandro> I also have it configured to log (logger-style, almost) everything I see on IRC (even when my client is gone).

16:02:46 <libby> WHEN: July 24-August 02, 2003 or something?

16:02:46 <dc_rdfig> Label WHEN not found.

16:03:09 <DanCon> I've written XSLT code to parse dates of the form WHEN: 23-26 June 2003

16:03:10 <_joshua> Ok successfully translated SHP to GML

16:03:12 <_joshua> Sweet

16:03:21 <DanCon> using what, _joshua?

16:03:51 <_joshua> GDAL's OGR

16:04:02 <DanCon> .google gdal ogr

16:04:03 <datum> gdal ogr: http://remotesensing.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/osrs/gdal/ogr/

16:04:06 <libby> shame there's no standard way of announcing conferences

16:04:14 <_joshua> _joshua is now known as joshua_

16:04:20 <DanCon> not a shame, an opportunity!

16:04:49 <libby> right, I think danbri was thinking along these lines too - think he did a wiki page

16:05:04 <DanCon> it's the killer app for RDF!!! imagine if everybody who wanted to mechanically consume a conference announcement had to learn a little RDF to do it!! oh.. er... ahem.

16:05:22 <libby> heh

16:06:28 <DanCon> hmm... now what triples does WHERE/WHEN generate?

16:06:52 <DanCon> q&d: <http://www.omg.org/news/meetings/uml2003/index.htm> chump:where "Burlingame, CA, USA".

16:06:53 <joshua_> Assuming I could learn to speak n3, I think I would want a desktop app with an "n3 console" at the bottom

16:07:07 <joshua_> I visualize it a lot like Outlook; folders on the left, contents and listings on the right

16:07:13 <joshua_> where folders would be canned queries

16:07:19 * joshua_ fantasizes

16:07:23 * DanCon wonders if joshua_ saw the haystack demo in Budapest

16:07:31 <eikeon> Is there a where in ical?

16:07:47 <libby> there's a geo thing eikeon

16:07:51 <joshua_> I didn't see anything in budapest

16:07:56 <DanCon> there's an ical:location, I think; text field. ThingsVerusTheirNames. bzzt.

16:08:39 <chaalsOutch>http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/200305/foaflang/xfoaf.tgz

16:08:39 <dc_rdfig> G: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/200305/foaflang/xfoaf.tgz from chaalsOutch

16:08:53 <chaalsOutch> G:|Foaf-generating Xforms

16:08:53 <dc_rdfig> Titled item G.

16:09:21 <DanCon> { ?PG chump:where ?TXT. ?PLACE weatherunderground:name ?TXT } => { ?PG foaf:topic [ cyc:eventOccursAt ?PLACE ] }.

16:09:57 <joshua_> while i'm fantasizing, i want a generic XML DTD to CLUD generator and a way to manage XML sniplets as well.

16:09:59 <chaalsOutch> G:A little tarball (xform, style sheet, instance example) that can be used locally to generate some basic FOAF data

16:10:00 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G1.

16:10:21 <chaalsOutch> G: For example with Xsmiles

16:10:21 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G2.

16:10:34 * chaalsOutch apologises for being off topic.

16:10:53 <joshua_> haystack demo?

16:11:30 <DanCon> { ?PG chump:when ?TXT. ?WHEN cyc:startingDate ?D1; cyc:endingDate ?D2; schedScrape:when ?TXT } => { ?PG foaf:topic [ cyc:startingDate ?D1; cyc:endingDate ?D2 ] }.

16:11:45 <DanCon> haystack is kinda like outlook on RDF-steriods.

16:11:55 <libby> BLURB: geo meet - chumping geo and date information for conferences

16:11:55 <dc_rdfig> H: geo meet - chumping geo and date information for conferences from libby

16:12:14 <joshua_> URL?

16:12:28 <DanCon> notes on haystack demo in Budapest: http://www2003.xmlhack.com/2003/05/24/2003-05-24.html#2003-05-24%2012:48

16:12:57 <DanCon> -> http://haystack.lcs.mit.edu/

16:13:05 <chrisgoad> G:[an event feed for GIS conferences|http://www.mapbureau.com/rdfmap1.0/examples/eventfeed.xml]

16:13:05 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G3.

16:13:35 <joshua_> NO SCREENSHOTS

16:13:40 <libby> hiramatu: e.g an RDF chump, such as [http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2000/scribe-bot/|scribe-bot], chumpette and semantic chimp

16:13:43 <libby> oops

16:13:45 <DanCon> more notes: http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/www2003/2003-05-24.html#T12-48-39

16:13:55 <libby> H:e.g an RDF chump, such as [http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2000/scribe-bot/|scribe-bot], chumpette and semantic chimp

16:13:55 <chrisgoad> G:[the event feed is displayed at|http://www.mapbureau.com/directionsmag]

16:13:55 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H1.

16:13:56 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G4.

16:14:42 <libby> H:see also [ESW wiki on conference announcements in RDF|http://esw.w3.org/topic/AnnounceOMatic]

16:14:43 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H2.

16:14:58 <joshua_> OH this looks gorgeous

16:15:21 <libby> H:also [logs from today|http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2003-05-28.html#T15-53-32]

16:15:21 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H3.

16:15:43 <DanCon> this=??

16:15:54 <chrisgoad> G4:""

16:15:54 <dc_rdfig> Deleted comment G4.

16:15:59 <libby> D:see also [logs from today|http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2003-05-28.html#T15-03-54-2]

16:15:59 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D13.

16:16:13 <chrisgoad> G3:""

16:16:14 <dc_rdfig> Deleted comment G3.

16:16:45 <DanCon> <ev:organizer>Towson University</ev:organizer> # more ThinsVersusTheirNames. hmm.

16:17:10 <chrisgoad> H:[an event feed for GIS conferences|http://www.mapbureau.com/rdfmap1.0/examples/eventfeed.xml]

16:17:10 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H4.

16:17:17 <DanCon> hmm... xmlns:ev="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/event/"

16:17:37 <chrisgoad> H:[the event feed is displayed at|http://www.mapbureau.com/directionsmag]

16:17:37 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H5.

16:18:29 <libby> cute

16:18:35 <DanCon> ??? "Use semantic augmentation if you desire to give i.e. a URL to the place." -- http://web.resource.org/rss/1.0/modules/event/

16:18:40 <libby> where's the rdf?

16:18:43 <libby> is there any?

16:18:59 <joshua_> I still want a variant of RSS for events, yeah

16:19:11 <libby> you can stuff rdfcal into rss

16:19:25 <chrisgoad> This is a little old and not quite what I would do right now. The guy at

16:19:37 <joshua_> Well, specifically I want venues to adopt it. So it's not so much the format but the data

16:19:41 <chrisgoad> directionsmag sort of followed my advice. Anyway, you get the idea

16:20:21 <libby> sure joshua_ - main problem is descrining it very very simply like rss+events module

16:20:32 <libby> people like that, despite the impreciison

16:20:51 <libby> I was going to write up some calendar rdf stuff...maybe that's the direction to go in...

16:21:15 <libby> - since http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal says most if not all of what we've done

16:24:16 <libby> H:very cool app

16:24:16 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H6.

16:24:29 <joshua_> Is the meeting past, incidentally?

16:24:33 <chrisgoad> Thnx

16:24:37 <libby> yeah I guess

16:24:55 <libby> thanks all

16:26:49 <libby> hey did H: not work?

16:27:17 <libby> oh ok

16:27:48 <zool> l8rs

16:38:21 <joshua_> Oh while people are still looking, i finished my booktrader thing i was talking about: http://books.burri.to/

16:49:39 <DanCon> hmm... this assc shapefile converter java deely is cool... but... it seems that this timezone shapefile data only covers the USA. :-{

16:50:21 <libby> shame

16:51:20 <libby> cute idea joshua_ ... need more books....

16:51:54 <joshua_> well more people really

17:01:36 <DanCon> allright! this timezone.shp stuff in http://fri.sfasu.edu/data/geographic/world/shape/ seems to have the lat/long->timezone info for the world!

17:20:49 <DanCon> hmm... this .shp -> .gml conversion is really, really slow. it's a testmony to 1 of 2 theses: (a) XML is verbose, or (b) Java is slow.

17:21:58 <collord> you forgot (c) most software is poorly written

17:21:59 <joshua_> use OGR. It took half a second to convert Manhattan

17:22:02 <bijan> XML is verbose java?

17:22:05 <bijan> Ergo *really* slow?

17:22:11 <joshua_> actually I started with a MapInfo file

17:23:04 * bijan falls back on it being testimony to (d): computers and all their ilk suck

17:23:11 <joshua_> well we knew that

17:23:40 * bijan is ok with speaking banal truth to not-too-much power

17:24:37 * DanCon hunts for easily-installable ogr...

17:24:47 <DanCon> I found http://remotesensing.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/osrs/gdal/ogr/ with google...

17:24:52 <joshua_> wget, gmake it

17:25:00 <DanCon> wget from where?

17:25:16 <joshua_> big list of projects at http://www.remotesensing.org/projects/hosted.php

17:25:28 <joshua_> the actual site is http://www.remotesensing.org/gdal/

17:25:43 <DanCon> perhaps this? ftp://ftp.remotesensing.org/pub/gdal/gdal-1.1.8.tar.gz

17:26:26 <joshua_> you also need OGR/GDAL for mapserver

17:26:31 <joshua_> :; time ogr2ogr -f GML out MNLION.tab

17:26:31 <joshua_> real 0m8.552s

17:27:15 <DanCon> gdal-1.1.8.tar.gz doesn't have what I need?

17:27:30 <joshua_> No, it's enough

17:27:43 <joshua_> mapserver's for turning things into actual maps

17:28:18 <DanCon> configure worked; making...

17:28:59 <DanCon> the java doodad (acss) was nice for interactively browsing shape files

17:29:05 <DanCon> accs

17:29:45 * DanCon grabs food...

17:35:46 <joshua_> the real thing for shp is Esri's free ArcView of course

17:37:12 <swh> swh is now known as swh_away

17:37:14 <chaalsOutch> cedric?

17:37:39 <chaalsOutch> how do these shapes look as examples for your place-picking deely?

17:40:09 <DanCon> build fell over: ogr_pg.h:70:22: libpq-fe.h: No such file or directory

18:01:11 * danbri-bud wanders past, apologies for missing the geo meet, I had thought I was back a day before I am (er, will be).

18:01:29 * danbri-bud -> FUD -> ZZZ -> CDG -> BRS

18:01:45 <DanCon> libby relayed your regrets, danbri; no apology necessary

18:01:52 <danbri-bud> thx

18:02:42 <danbri-bud> I had an idea for an intern project for w3c/europe btw: get calendar dumps in ical format from the missions database so we have all our airtravel info in machine format. Maybe same would work at mit...

18:04:28 <DanCon> missions database?

18:04:36 <DanCon> mit just uses email

18:05:06 <danbri-bud> theres an (sql-backed i think) db for travel by european team. pretty fancy. i'll dig out details when back...

18:05:23 * danbri-bud heads off; nn all

18:13:48 * chaalsOutch has that on list of things to do with students...

18:14:29 <edd> chaalsOutch: ever get your new machine?

18:14:33 <chaalsOutch> and discussed it with (forgot her name :( who produced the thing originally - it should be pretty straightforward if we knew what to export to

18:14:40 <chaalsOutch> Yep. Very nice.

18:14:53 <edd> Larger than life. Suits you :)

18:32:27 * JibberJim apologises for missing geo meet... I didn't have it in my calendar...

18:33:53 <sandro> Huh. I just noticed that chump is an IRC server, not a client. Any idea why?

18:36:41 <edd> sandro: what're you talking about? the chump is a bot, which is an IRC client

18:37:50 <sandro> Hrm. Chumps messages like "Added comment B1." come accross as server messages, not like a client saying something. I don't know the technical IRC term for it.

18:38:08 <bijan> notify

18:38:18 <bijan> Which is a perfect client level thing to do, I believe

18:38:29 * sandro looks in his client for it.

18:38:35 <edd> yes, it's intended for bots

18:38:55 <edd> see, i can do it too

18:39:12 <bijan> Did mine work?

18:39:16 <sandro> ahhhhhh. okay, thanks.

18:39:18 <edd> not that i saw.

18:39:24 <sandro> no, Bijan's didnt work, but edd's did.

18:39:36 <bijan> Ain't it always the way

18:39:44 <edd> You better believe it.

18:49:09 <joshua_> sandro: those are notices, and bots are REQUIRED to send those in response to privmsgs.

18:50:12 <sandro> why, to help avoid bot-loops?

18:50:23 <joshua_> precisely

18:54:11 <sandro> I'd think a bot would be required to use notices (notifies?) for channel messages, too, in that case.

19:06:12 <joshua_> They are required to, yes.

19:06:19 <joshua_> Just because some don't...

19:06:57 <sbp`> joshua: just wondering: what specification manadates this?

19:07:26 <joshua_> the irc spec

19:11:47 <sandro> logger_1, pointer?

19:11:47 <sandro> See http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2003-05-28#T19-11-47

19:13:27 <sbp`> I presume you mean section 4.4.2 of RFC 1459? it reads more like a SHOULD than a MUST to me...

19:13:41 <joshua_> Perhaps I misremember

19:43:09 * JibberJim doesn't see if another geo meet was scheduled, was it?

19:43:54 <joshua_> nope

20:15:02 <bitsko> hey AaronSw, how's OSCOM?

20:15:46 <AaronSw> ok

20:15:54 <AaronSw> no internet tho

20:16:07 <bitsko> ah, that 'splains it

20:16:08 <AaronSw> had to steal a cord and ip from this locked down termnina

20:16:09 <AaronSw> l

20:17:22 <AaronSw> zool and authena are on now

20:17:36 <sbp`> borrow

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