Semantic Web Interest Group IRC Chat Logs for 2003-09-19

00:44:46 <ndw> Any W3C admins hanging around this evening?

00:45:09 <danbri> what's up?

00:45:11 <adamhill> adamhill is now known as _adam_work

00:45:51 <ndw> I'd like to get the ACL changed on a couple of files. Apparently if I add new files, I can set the ACL initially, but now I need the flipped from Member to Public

00:46:17 <danbri> sure, no problem. Give me the urls...

00:46:18 * ndw moves over to the channel on the W3C server as it's more appropriate

01:20:49 <karlcow>http://www.la-grange.net/2003/09/test-rdfig.html

01:20:49 <dc_rdfig> A: http://www.la-grange.net/2003/09/test-rdfig.html from karlcow

01:21:09 <_dreaminofjeanni> _dreaminofjeanni is now known as adamhill

01:21:28 <karlcow> A:|try to improve the presentation of RDFIG log : a bit of markup and CSS.

01:21:29 <dc_rdfig> Titled item A.

01:22:40 <karlcow> A: will work only in browsers with good CSS 2 support and in others will be completely ignored and showed as before.

01:22:41 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A1.

01:23:23 <golbeck___> golbeck___ is now known as golbeck

01:27:11 <sbp> A:ooh, I like it. I wonder where the CDATA hack comes from, too

01:27:11 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A2.

03:14:48 <golbeck_> golbeck_ is now known as golbeck

07:00:33 <golbeck_> golbeck_ is now known as golbeck

07:07:03 <jql> jql is now known as jql-zzz

07:41:37 <ear1grey> A: a welcome eyesaver - much improved.

07:41:38 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A3.

07:48:31 <danbri> morning steve

08:36:50 <arnarl> hi

09:23:02 * dajobe-lap waves from hp labs

09:25:24 <dajobe-lap> xml schema annotation to produce rdf, nonbody here really doing it

09:26:56 <dajobe-lap> mapping rdf to/from xml

09:27:47 <dajobe-lap> need a generic way to map to/from rdf&xml maybe, rather than custom programs each way

09:29:40 <kao> you mean using rdf as a common ground for information interchange of specific xml?

09:30:03 <dajobe-lap> no, using colloq xml & tools for rdf work and it working

09:31:52 <kao> oh ic

09:32:28 <kao> using xml schema annotation so the tools know what the xml means?

09:32:49 <dajobe-lap> that's one suggestion

09:33:04 <kao> sounds interesting

09:33:19 <dajobe-lap> it keeps coming up "schema annotation" as they call it

09:33:24 <kao> a nice way to get xml out of its island use

09:33:30 <dajobe-lap> and it has been propopsed as some future XML schema delveopment

09:33:39 <dajobe-lap> whethere that is too cokmplex, I don't know

09:34:29 <kao> worth a try anyway

09:34:48 <dajobe-lap> I feel there's probably some traction with a simpler schema language such as relaxng

09:37:08 <dajobe-lap> composition of xml schemas, hard

09:37:16 <dajobe-lap> nobody here reported working ons chema annotation

09:37:46 <dajobe-lap> some work on reversable mapping between xml and cc/pp

09:38:18 <dajobe-lap> what would people like to have machine transalted into rdf/back?

09:38:20 <dajobe-lap> 1. ieee lom

09:38:29 <dajobe-lap> 2. geographical data from ??michael rose

09:38:31 <dajobe-lap> (gk)

09:38:40 <dajobe-lap> marshal rose

09:39:13 <dajobe-lap> in xml.resource.org

09:39:29 <dajobe-lap> -- starting from an xml schema maybe

09:39:33 <kao> well, the "and back" is the issue there

09:39:39 <dajobe-lap> ... characterising the problem, may not have a dtd/schema

09:39:53 <dajobe-lap> kao: yes, but it's being done

09:39:59 <kao> what i've seen so far is, XML/whatever -> rdf (for processing) -> HTML/whatever (for presentation)

09:40:14 <dajobe-lap> "atom'

09:40:26 <dajobe-lap> not using rdf syntax but rdf-friendlly

09:41:07 <kao> yes, but from rdf to xml? maybe in data integration work, but otherwise...

09:41:20 <dajobe-lap> don'tt think of it as translation xm<>rdf but trying to take stuff in xml and use it

09:41:47 <dajobe-lap> messy things like ieee lom can be hard to auto convert

09:41:56 <kao> you mean, consider it as rdf for processing, but the output needs to be back in the native format... ic

09:42:14 <dajobe-lap> kao: yes, I think that is one approach

09:43:00 <dajobe-lap> ... don't characterise the problem as a barrier between xml and rdf

09:43:11 <kao> i wont

09:43:27 <dajobe-lap> jang describes easel work describing the model but querying it as xmlo

09:43:46 <dajobe-lap> kao: that was me transcribing, not intended at you. sorry

09:44:16 <dajobe-lap> rachel: how to process xml data and get rdf benefits from it?

09:44:27 <kao> well, xml->rdf->xml sould be no problem as long as you dont add to the rdf part

09:44:36 <kao> that would require schema integration in xml

09:45:21 <kao> after all, the powerof rdf is to add other sources to your data to get stuff done

09:45:54 <kao> if you do this, you'd have to extract the extra data for re-representing as xml

09:46:12 <kao> or, better, know how to express it in the original xml schemas terms

09:46:37 <kao> i see how schema annotation could be helpfull there.

09:46:54 <dajobe-lap> beneftis: data mergeing, inferencee, interpreting unknown metadata

09:47:11 <dajobe-lap> kao: yeah

09:47:14 <kao> certainly

09:47:49 <kao> hm... inverse xslt...

09:47:50 <dajobe-lap> ... problem: once you merge in rdf, you often can't write it back as xml again

09:47:56 <dajobe-lap> kao: lol

09:48:18 <kao> ... as the xml schema doesnt know about the extra parts, yes.

09:49:46 <kao> and if the schema cannot describe it, the xml processor cant process it.

09:50:59 <dajobe-lap> discussion briefly moves to n3, subsets and n3-r (rdf versions)

09:53:28 <dajobe-lap> vocabularies and sharing them, evoluton

09:53:36 <dajobe-lap> af few people have used owl

09:58:17 <dajobe-lap> using xsd datatypes without needing an oracle to handle them (sutch as applying a mask)

09:59:39 <dajobe-lap> ... you can't do everything with declarative rules (or you can, but it becomes ugly and wierd)

09:59:50 <dajobe-lap> ... sometimes writing the code is easier than writign the rules

10:00:08 <dajobe-lap> back to, is OWL enough?

10:00:55 <dajobe-lap> some people think OWL's useful.

10:04:01 <dajobe-lap> evolution of vocabulary

10:06:06 <dajobe-lap> dublin core dc:title v1 uri and dc:title v2

10:06:09 <dajobe-lap> relating them

10:06:18 <dajobe-lap> cost of having lots of similar title-like properties

10:06:32 <dajobe-lap> so encouraging using some common ones - that has cost too

10:08:53 <dajobe-lap> element sets

10:10:08 <dajobe-lap> constraineing them, recomended sets of terms

10:10:27 <dajobe-lap> an xml feeling that you can only put in certain elements /must put in

10:11:57 <dajobe-lap> udef

10:12:10 <dajobe-lap> ahem, "off the wall" "crackpot"

10:13:29 <dajobe-lap> messyness of communtiies, overlapping ovocabs

10:14:00 <dajobe-lap> who defines properties for terms in widespread use? it depends - ebusiness communities, people interested

10:14:38 <dajobe-lap> example of library community no sense of merging on 1 classification system going to happen ever.

10:14:45 <dajobe-lap> UDC, DDC, ...

10:17:18 <dajobe-lap> registries of terms useful early on

10:17:25 <dajobe-lap> where to find propertlies? timbl: daml.org

10:17:35 <dajobe-lap> mention of meg registries and schema tool

10:18:47 <dajobe-lap> not sure when to reuse or reivinvent?

10:35:12 <dajobe-lap> ontology references

10:35:22 <dajobe-lap> if you use thiis ontologyu, you might like to use this one

10:35:32 <dajobe-lap> want to know what is being used and who (what community) is using them

10:36:17 <dajobe-lap> crawling the foaf web alreayd lets you do proeprty surveys

10:36:23 <dajobe-lap> in real life public docs

10:36:24 <dajobe-lap> -- danbri

10:37:51 <dajobe-lap> knowing what's in use is useful

10:38:07 <dajobe-lap> especially if you are new to the area, and want to know what to map, say some existingf terms to

10:38:34 <dajobe-lap> terms from daml.org maybe not so modular, ocne you move to ontologies

10:38:40 <dajobe-lap> they are interelevaed

10:38:48 <dajobe-lap> building on layers of interpretation

10:39:03 <dajobe-lap> buying into a lot of repreesentation of time & space

10:39:04 <dajobe-lap> for e.g.

10:39:27 <dajobe-lap> such as those using daml:imports

10:39:31 <dajobe-lap> --

10:39:36 <dajobe-lap> looking stuff up on the web

10:39:59 <dajobe-lap> people's software looks stuff up on the web, but not inference engines typically - timbl

10:40:09 <dajobe-lap> s, p, o

10:40:26 <dajobe-lap> looking up p is interesting, and classes (o, when p=rdf:type)

10:41:03 <dajobe-lap> if you follow some s, o, you might enter a huge web and never come back

10:41:22 <dajobe-lap> if we put files at the end, breadcrumbs to useful/intersting stuff

10:41:33 <dajobe-lap> cwm closure=ptr

10:41:41 <dajobe-lap> picking up rules

10:43:57 <dajobe-lap> ontological closure seems useful

10:44:05 <dajobe-lap> ?

10:44:23 <dajobe-lap> daveR: basic q - how to map lookup of URIs?

10:44:54 <dajobe-lap> ... from property URIs - there is no expectation of resolving? A: yes, it's in the URI spec

10:45:16 <dajobe-lap> what's at the end of the URI?

10:47:46 <dajobe-lap> where is the model of hwow the web works (uris, retrival)(?

10:47:56 <dajobe-lap> the way thtat # is used, fundamental part of web arch

10:47:58 <dajobe-lap> 10 years old

10:50:13 <dajobe-lap> what the hash means is mime-type based on the retrieved data, rdf-mode # interpretation

10:51:22 <dajobe-lap> authoritiative - the person that controlled the uri had control over that uri (property)

10:52:42 <dajobe-lap> daver - set of conventions for what is behind the uri

10:52:52 <dajobe-lap> timbl - pel put rdf, owl better, range and domain better

10:53:37 <dajobe-lap> daver - not as compulsive as owl:imports

10:54:52 <dajobe-lap> TAG issue

10:55:28 <dajobe-lap> rddl

10:55:41 <dajobe-lap> but that's an extra hop/request - efficiency issues

10:57:23 <dajobe-lap> conneg at end of namespace uris

10:57:45 <dajobe-lap> timbl - don't think html/rdf should be conneged

10:58:01 <dajobe-lap> one is human markup, one rules. Unless html is a degraded version of rdf

11:01:09 <dajobe-lap> different formats - when? gif/png/...?

11:03:01 <dajobe-lap> rdf links, hypertext (xml/html links)

11:03:54 <dajobe-lap> equivalence terms

11:04:05 <dajobe-lap> sometimes roughly the same thing, same information content

11:04:11 <dajobe-lap> othertimes, exactly the same thing

11:05:01 <dajobe-lap> conneg's the weaker sense

11:06:18 <dajobe-lap> gettint back the same thing

11:06:30 <dajobe-lap> maybe worth burning soeme things into to spec

11:07:14 <dajobe-lap> we could say that you shouldn't do conneg with rdf

11:08:09 <dajobe-lap> http uris with frags for rdf - vs - all uris. Discussion applying to both?

11:09:42 <Mutiny> taking notes on IRC, i see? ;)

11:09:55 <dajobe-lap> yeah, who needs editors

11:10:04 <dajobe-lap> timbl visiting hp labs bristol

11:10:23 <Mutiny> cool :)

11:10:57 <dajobe-lap> timbl - new use kr for rewtrieval of uris such as propertyies, namespaces rather than just docs

11:11:38 <dajobe-lap> ^- it is a new use in kr, to retrieve...

11:13:02 <dajobe-lap> web serviecs wg is now asking about portnames, operation names etc. identified by qnames/uris and asking what is at th eend of the URI (to the TAG)?

11:13:28 <dajobe-lap> likely that people will write this in OWL, and will make things cleaner

11:13:34 <dajobe-lap> difference between a message and a mesage type

11:13:59 <dajobe-lap> might end up showing big problems in WSDL defn

11:15:27 <dajobe-lap> differnce between the URI of a resource describing another entity

11:15:31 <dajobe-lap> and the URI of the entity

11:47:12 * larsbot is having trouble with Jena

11:47:34 <larsbot> I read in characters >128 from XML files where they are correctly encoded

11:47:53 <larsbot> but when I call ALiteral.getString() they seem to be messed up

11:47:57 <larsbot> does this sound familiar to anyone?

11:48:54 <dajobe-lap> all the jena people are in this room having lunch

11:50:34 <larsbot> I'm using version 1.4, if that matters

11:51:42 <larsbot> dajobe-lap: could you ask them?

11:51:55 <larsbot> I'm sure this is the kind of thing they love discussing during lunch :)

12:05:19 <larsbot> wow. the characters turn into U+FFFD, Unicode object replacement character

12:05:23 * larsbot thoroughly baffled

12:05:57 <larsbot> looks like a Jena b ug

12:13:51 <larsbot> ah. upgrading to 1.6.1 fixes it

12:16:17 <dajobe-lap> timbl - document-centric choreography

12:16:22 <dajobe-lap> cf wsdl

12:18:54 <dajobe-lap> "could you write a wsdl desc of a joseki service?" - timbl

12:18:58 <dajobe-lap> "dunno" - andyS

12:19:05 <dajobe-lap> would it even be useful?

12:19:15 <dajobe-lap> hi norm

12:19:24 <dajobe-lap> miss doing distributed query

12:19:39 <dajobe-lap> stuart - dones't tell you what it does, effect of an invocation

12:19:46 <dajobe-lap> (WSDL)

12:20:09 <ndw> hi dajobe-lap

12:20:44 <dajobe-lap> suggestion that students have to do lit-review, so should WGs on starting.

12:21:12 <dajobe-lap> w.r.t web services community in this case, wsdl and interactions, agents

12:21:25 <dajobe-lap> "web attitude"?

12:21:52 <dajobe-lap> WS driven by marketing timescales, no time, no time.

12:22:52 <dajobe-lap> OWL-S - a bit cheeky named

12:23:10 <dajobe-lap> drives expectation that DAML->OWL, DAML-S -> OWL-S, OWL-S will be w3c stamped

12:23:26 <dajobe-lap> however, OWL-S is a translation of DAMl-S - clarified

12:24:04 <dajobe-lap> ws choreog integrate with daml/owl-s? or are they different?

12:25:32 <dajobe-lap> WS-policy yet-another meta-meta desc tech

12:27:59 <dajobe-lap> a starting vocabulary for use in describing the services

12:31:41 <dajobe-lap> WSDL - makes spaghetti web services possible

12:31:45 <dajobe-lap> just as you can make spaghetti code

12:34:02 <dajobe-lap> web service hub w/adaptors converting

12:34:10 <dajobe-lap> integration supplies, doing thie own thing

12:34:20 <dajobe-lap> to translate between and join WS

12:34:57 <dajobe-lap> time warner defined 21 terms/concepts company wide

12:35:05 <dajobe-lap> it's all that could be agreeable on

12:35:19 <dajobe-lap> it'd be a small company that made 1 UML diagram

12:35:22 <dajobe-lap> and fragile

12:35:26 <dajobe-lap> for it's WSs

12:36:46 <dajobe-lap> demonstrating value by showing how to look across lots of ssytems can be made possible

12:36:53 <dajobe-lap> with semweb tech

12:37:19 <dajobe-lap> data integration then producing intersting reports

12:38:48 <dajobe-lap> showing benefits - program integregationa cross programs, organisational boundaries

12:39:07 <dajobe-lap> ^-across appliccations,

12:40:35 <dajobe-lap> how far away is updating, propogation, notification of changes

12:40:47 <dajobe-lap> people typically ask "where is the RDF query lang?" then

12:41:13 <dajobe-lap> peer to peer rdf, pub and subscribe

12:42:49 <dajobe-lap> rdf sync - sync between 2 graphs

12:43:04 <dajobe-lap> read only case useful to start

12:43:10 <dajobe-lap> update harder

12:43:33 * danbri-hp has notes on laptop too, but net link is flakey

12:45:24 <dajobe-lap> dragging data on desktop

12:45:26 <dajobe-lap> typed clipboards

12:45:29 <dajobe-lap> conneg for rdf

12:46:12 <dajobe-lap> for example dragging a picture at a date/time into a calendar

12:47:00 * danbri-hp doesn't u/stand why his net link is so slow :(

12:47:02 <libby> gk:what's rdf *not* good for?

12:50:33 <libby> chaals: bitmap img formats

12:50:51 <libby> gk:performance-wise, very large dbs (currently)

12:51:24 <libby> dr: not so good for probballities

12:51:42 <libby> chaals: lies...

12:52:15 <libby> tbl:=quotations

12:52:50 <libby> libby:things change over time

12:52:58 <libby> danbri: ordered documents

12:53:05 <libby> chaals: washing up

12:53:35 <libby> tbl: write up some success stories

12:56:30 <libby> ...needs two people to bump into each other to get excitied about sw

12:56:47 <libby> (reminds me of http://kevan.org/proce55ing/zombies/ ;)

12:57:34 <libby> ...be useful to annotate onologies for stability

12:58:55 <libby> danbri: schema as a dictionary

12:59:43 <libby> tbl: stability could be a presentation issue

13:02:10 <libby> steve: vcard is stable

13:02:25 <libby> tbl: is a syntactic translation obvious?

13:03:01 <libby> ...anyone doing it?

13:03:17 <libby> danbri: the note makes people seem like its done

13:04:05 <libby> tbl: find vocabs which connect together

13:04:15 <libby> danbri: foaf stuff fun

13:04:26 <libby> chaals: demo to who?

13:05:21 <libby> tbl: 'i-integrator' for mac - plists

13:05:36 <libby> ...nsthen would be rdf

13:06:02 <libby> ...gps stuff

13:06:15 <libby> ...pictures, codepiction at a meeting at a place

13:06:50 <libby> ..what was I douing taht day, what was I spending

13:09:31 <dajobe-lap> jang refers to http://www.gnome.org/~seth/storage/

13:10:25 <libby> danbri: something like ilife in RDF seems plausible

13:12:01 <libby> tbl: 'ilife'->meeting->person->business card - a modular browser

13:12:51 <libby> danbri: sorta like opendoc, brownsauce, isaviz...

13:13:47 <libby> damian: brownsauce - tell me about this thing according to these sources; use schemas to grab lables; display where possible

13:14:54 <libby> tbl: style from ontolgy writer, user or data provider

13:16:09 <libby> damian: view using css

13:17:09 <libby> gk: why are you looking ath is data - business card or phonebook - same data

13:20:13 <libby> ==query and apis==

13:21:18 * DanC tunes in, notes #rdfig seems to be connected to some other forum; wonders which...

13:21:45 * DanC checks logs...

13:21:51 <libby> hi danc...we're at HP labs in BRS

13:22:14 <libby> timbl is here

13:22:27 <DanC> BLURB: HP labs BRS notes

13:22:27 <dc_rdfig> B: HP labs BRS notes from DanC

13:22:40 <DanC> B:see [http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2003-09-19.html#T09-23-02|logs]

13:22:40 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B1.

13:24:01 <libby> [scribe misses quite a lot about cwm :(]

13:24:14 <libby> peopel describing their apis

13:24:23 <DanC> B:I'm not there, but it seems libby, dajobe-lap, timbl are

13:24:24 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B2.

13:25:36 <libby> bitsko: about 25 of us chatting about sweb/rdf/xml; semweb and web services; sharing sw vocabs; demonstrating value of sw

13:25:41 <libby> bum

13:25:45 <libby> B:about 25 of us chatting about sweb/rdf/xml; semweb and web services; sharing sw vocabs; demonstrating value of sw

13:25:45 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B3.

13:26:49 <libby> B:and apis and query

13:26:49 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B4.

13:26:50 * DanC checks public-esw, swad-europe weblog for anything about this get-together, doesn't see any

13:27:15 <libby> it went around semanticweb-southwest at yahoogroups

13:27:41 <chaalsBRS> Hmm. It was annouinced on SemanticWebSouthWest - a local list for teh southwest of britain.

13:28:10 * DanC uses the wiki bookmarklet to add public-esw to esw:MailingLists... rock on, JibberJim

13:29:57 <DanC> B:is foaf:topic of [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/semanticweb-southwest/message/74|msg from Stuart]

13:29:58 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B5.

13:33:45 * chaalsBRS doesn't mention using Xforms xpath stuff as an API. It's handy but very limiting (although interesting to look at how far it can go...)

13:38:39 <libby> dr talks about jena apis, pushing query to databases

13:39:27 <libby> ...graph interface easy to reimplement in jena, so if people have a different layout, can implement it

13:40:15 <DanC> norm!

13:40:17 <libby> danbri: if were to standardise, which first, api or ql?

13:40:18 <libby> heh

13:40:28 * DanC checks RDF Core agenda...

13:40:36 <libby> andys: may be a bit late for api standard

13:41:08 <chaalsBRS> andys: each toolset comes with an API.

13:41:33 <chaalsBRS> ... so you have problems about getting tolkits talkng to each other, which from a user's perspective doesn't look inviting.

13:41:39 <libby> jang: apis are tedious, high-level q feels better

13:43:28 <libby> andys: jena has n3 support, but not builtins

13:48:46 <libby> chaalsBRS: xpath in xforms: quick and easy

13:49:09 <libby> damian: 'rdfpath' in saxon: xslt and xquery

13:49:22 <libby> ...'feels natural'

13:49:33 <chaalsBRS> Xforms: limited, but not dreadfully so - the striping means that you have a couple of possibilities to get some level of generality.

13:50:02 <libby> damian: xslt useful; not sure about xquery yet. pretending ot be a dom

13:50:08 <chaalsBRS> I'd hate to build an RDF parser, but it seems a good way to write specific-purpose tools

13:50:47 * libby would love to see rdfpath ->squish->database in xslt

13:51:13 <libby> danbri: we forgot about mozilla, one of the earilest apis for rdf

13:51:43 <libby> tbl: brownsauce/svg? javascript

13:51:57 <libby> ...fish-eye zoom

13:52:38 <libby> danbri: shame no jibberjim...

13:53:11 <libby> ===finished===

13:53:41 <libby> group puzzles over reasons for sw cluster in sw uk

13:54:18 * ericm thinks its something in the water :)

14:00:00 <maxf> something tells me there's interesting stuff going on here...

14:03:22 * DanC waves to maxf, reagleBRKLN

14:03:49 <maxf> hi all

14:07:24 <danbri-hp> A:

14:07:24 <dc_rdfig>http://www.la-grange.net/2003/09/test-rdfig.html

14:07:25 <dc_rdfig> try to improve the presentation of RDFIG log : a bit of markup and CSS.

14:07:26 <dc_rdfig> (1:karlcow) will work only in browsers with good CSS 2 support and in others will be completely ignored and showed as before.

14:07:27 <dc_rdfig> (2:sbp) ooh, I like it. I wonder where the CDATA hack comes from, too

14:07:28 <dc_rdfig> (3:ear1grey) a welcome eyesaver - much improved.

14:08:03 <danbri-hp> ok i have supersluggish irc

14:11:45 <larsbot> danbri-hp: still interested in a FOAF-to-TM mapping?

14:12:05 * larsbot putting the finishing touches on his RDF-to-TM mapping vocabulary

14:12:22 <larsbot> have the implementation, now finishing up the documentation of it

14:12:59 <danbri-hp> A:

14:13:00 <dc_rdfig>http://www.la-grange.net/2003/09/test-rdfig.html

14:13:01 <dc_rdfig> try to improve the presentation of RDFIG log : a bit of markup and CSS.

14:13:02 <dc_rdfig> (1:karlcow) will work only in browsers with good CSS 2 support and in others will be completely ignored and showed as before.

14:13:03 <dc_rdfig> (2:sbp) ooh, I like it. I wonder where the CDATA hack comes from, too

14:13:04 <dc_rdfig> (3:ear1grey) a welcome eyesaver - much improved.

14:13:04 <danbri-hp> yes, but am in a meeting currently...

14:13:08 <danbri-hp> can you send a note to rdfweb-dev@vapours.rdfweb.org when you're happy w/ comments/feedback from foaf folk?

14:20:21 <DanC> sandro, it's clear to me that brainstorming in the wiki is too fun to try to stop it... but I think badges like SomedayPile or BrainStorm or some such are in order.

14:21:09 <sandro> I have no problem with that....

14:21:29 * sandro thinks about badges. Brainstorm is bad only because the S should not be caps.

14:21:51 <DanC> and re social meaning in particular, a few use cases are probably a good place to start... I like the battingAverage use case

14:21:53 <sandro> I'm okay with BlueSky, but that usage may not be widespread

14:22:13 <DanC> BlueSky occured to me too

14:23:10 <DanC> I think it's appropriate that ESW be somewhat novel about community wisdom vs. design. W3C's role, after all, is to move that wave

14:23:33 <sandro> Shall I "create this page" on BlueSky and start using it?

14:23:58 <DanC> well, don't make an IslandTopic. start from WikiConsensus or some such

14:25:10 <sandro> okay

14:25:48 <DanC> another important thing about SocailMeaning is to just make the page smaller. The task of editing it to the point where I agree with all of it is overwhelming at this point

14:26:58 <larsbot> danbri-hp: I'll send a note when I have simple doco + an example for FOAF

14:27:12 <larsbot> probably later today

14:27:17 <danbri-hp> okcool

14:27:33 * DanC wikimarks udell's language instincts article under SocialMeaning

14:28:44 <DanC> did I mention that I LOVE the wiki bookmarklet thing? it feels *so good* to use a shared bookmark repository rather than my ~/.mozilla/foo files

14:29:02 <sandro> uri?

14:29:41 <DanC> . http://esw.w3.org/2003/09/wiki-bookmarklet.html

14:31:27 <danbri-hp> +1

14:31:27 <danbri-hp> it could do with a wiki page explaining it...

14:31:28 * danbri-hp will install one on foaf wiki too...

14:31:32 <danbri-hp> esw.w3.org/2003/09/...something, sorry

14:32:10 <karlcow> DanC, May I suggest to make this a link and explain you can drag and drop. :) It will be nice than having a long line of Javascript.

14:32:24 <karlcow> s/nice/nicer/

14:32:25 <DanC> you can drag and drop? really?

14:32:48 <DanC> oh... from the wiki-bookmarklet.html page to the toolbar.

14:32:50 <karlcow> yes :) bookmarklet. you can drag and drop in your toolbar

14:32:55 <karlcow> yep

14:33:07 <DanC> it's not my page, karl... I suppose you could change it as easily as I

14:33:31 <karlcow> there's no edit button on this page :)

14:33:31 <danbri-hp> I made the page. You need an esw.w3.org login. The HTML was supplied by Jim; there may be a master copy somewhere.

14:33:41 <karlcow> and I don't have access to the machine ;)

14:33:47 <danbri-hp> I welcome edits to the esw.w3.org copy (but would prefer them documented in the wiki)

14:34:05 <DanC> needs a wiki page: yes... let's have a name auction... WikiMark?

14:34:17 <DanC> ... WikiBookmarkLet?

14:34:20 <karlcow> WikiMarklet?

14:34:27 <DanC> WikiMarklet ++

14:34:29 <karlcow> WikiLet

14:35:12 * danbri-hp wonders if this can be couchec as a pattern, per danc's occasional urging

14:35:46 <DanC> yes: problem: bookmarks scattered around among N browsers...

14:35:52 * danbri-hp blanks on how (LinkSharing?)

14:35:52 * danbri-hp gives up on trying to get http access to work, goes to share someone elses rdfcore agenda

14:36:05 * ndw finds the bookmarklet under discussion completely opaque

14:36:11 <DanC> ... and what you really want to do when you bookmark something is show it to your peers. ThereFore use the WikiMarklet

14:37:01 <ndw> Pointer to a page created by the WikiMarklet, please?

14:37:10 <DanC> it doesn't create pages...

14:37:15 <DanC> ... it just adds links to existing pages.

14:37:28 <DanC> see the bottom of http://esw.w3.org/topic/DanConnolly

14:37:57 <ndw> Ah. Thx

14:38:47 <danbri-hp> see http://esw.w3.org/topic/DanBri -- junk at the end i recently 'bookmarked'

14:41:18 <sandro> me puts that js URL in his toolbar, visits a random page, presses the button, and gets very very confused as the page he's looked at changes. Weird.

14:42:55 <cp79> can anyone point me to some semantic web literature which could be considered aimed at a student

14:43:20 <sandro> So... it bookmarks it and as a sideeffect does some DHTML mugning of the current page....???? What do other people see when they try it?

14:43:40 <danbri-hp> yes, i think thats a necessary hack, not sure why it does that

14:44:01 <danbri-hp> maybe it could remove it again afterwards... ask JibberJim

14:44:14 <sandro> Couldn't it at least have the munging produce "PAGE BOOKMARKED"...? Yeah, okay.

14:45:15 <sandro> Okay. Very very cool (except for that confusion.)

14:46:06 * DanC noodles on cp79's question and a comment about per-audience info in the wiki... SemanticWebForStudents ...

14:46:19 <DanC> s/a comment/danbri's comment/

14:48:07 * DanC wonders if there's any predictable rhythm to #rdfig , or if it would be useful to agitate in that direction

14:48:12 <danbri-hp> a student projects page would e cool

14:48:31 <danbri-hp> I tend towards thinking of wednesday pm (uk time) as RDFIG time...

14:48:40 <danbri-hp> query and cal and image chats have been then

14:49:05 <DanC> yes, that time on weds is about the closest thing

14:49:38 <danbri-hp> my vote re swcg timeslot also tried to keep this bit of the week clear for rdfig

14:49:45 * DanC noodles on a semi-automated community calendar...

14:50:08 * danbri-hp wishes moinmoin were xhtml-happy. again.

14:50:35 <DanC> me too

14:51:13 <DanC> btw... sandro, squatting has 2 t's

14:51:24 <sandro> NOW you tell me. :-(

14:51:35 <DanC> I thought about fixing that, but haven't finished the environmental impact study

14:51:54 * sandro bows his head in shame

14:52:45 <DanC> I looked it up, which was rewarding, as is often the case... squatting has several definitions, not all of which are Bad Things

14:52:48 <sandro> It should be fixed, unless we want to deprecate the whole term. But I still think it's good.

14:53:41 <sandro> I just added a note at the bottom of http://esw.w3.org/topic/NamespaceDistortion about it being not well named.

14:53:53 <DanC> yes, it's a good term... note UriSpaceSquatting is a WantedPage from UriSchemes/callto and many similar pages

14:54:04 * sandro takes a brief breakfast break

14:56:31 <DanC> speaking of weekly rhythms, having TAG meetings on monday sucks. (all monday meetings suck. mondays suck. mondays are for adminstrative duties and other things that suck)

14:57:32 <DanC> having TAG meetings on mondays sucks in particular because combined with my "always prepare for your next telcon" pattern, TAG work ends up on friday... friday afternoon, in fact... when lots of EU folks have headed out for the weekend

14:58:12 <DanC> I'm trying to do TAG work on wednesdays, but I rarely have sufficient discipline.

15:05:37 <DanC> hmm... why not criticize BlueSky ideas? not even constructively?

15:09:45 <bijan_> Hmm. If it's in the midst of a brainstorming session, non-criticism is part of the methodology

15:10:40 <bijan_> And there are a number of justifications: Avoiding dialectic in favor of covering all bits of the space, avoiding inhibition and over prethinking, etc.

15:11:27 * DanC put his question in the BlueSky page, wonders if bijan's answer should go there too, or if I'm just clueless and it should be left implicit

15:11:43 <DanC> i.e. should the question be asked and answered or just deleted?

15:15:37 * DanC notes, with satisfaction, that OwlTalks has grown a few sub-bullets

15:16:14 <danbri-hp> :)

15:19:42 <bijan_> Hmm. danbri moved to hp?

15:19:43 <bijan_> News to me

15:19:45 <bijan_> bijan_ is now known as bijan

15:21:19 * bijan notes that SpuriousRumors shoudln't be criticized either, especially if DerivedFromInnocuousNickChanges

15:23:35 <JibberJim> The bookmark is broken as it's in debugging state, the 500's in that doc, should be changed to 0's as per http://snork.jibbering.com/2003/9/wiki-bookmarklet.html document can and should be changed to make it readable, but the script must remain on the page...

15:24:58 <DanC> hi Peter

15:25:07 <JibberJim> oops, revealed snork to the logs - that machine is not permanently available, see jibbering.com instead.

15:25:30 <pfps> hi, I'm trying to find out if anything is going to happen wrt sw-meaning today

15:26:07 <DanC> did you see my "offer to host telcon Fri, 26 Sep 15:30 UTC" msg?

15:26:25 <DanC> 26 Sep is next fri

15:26:56 <DanC> meanwhile, I suppose a certain amount of the goings on here are relevant to sw-meaning

15:27:25 <pfps> somehow I'm very date challenged this month - I bowed out of a lunch meeting Monday to participate in the call today :-)

15:28:02 <DanC> date challenged... happens to the best of us

15:28:34 <DanC> do you use an iCalendar-happy thingy? would it have helped if I had attached a .ics thingy?

15:29:32 <pfps> the only option for such things here is MS software, and I'm valiantly trying not do use any more MS software than I am totally forced to :-(

15:29:50 <DanC> keep the faith, brother.

15:29:56 <DanC> meanwhile, evolution and korganizer grok icalendar

15:30:29 <pfps> so the result is that since they stopped supporting Sun's calendar tools I have no calendar support I guess I'll have to set up something myself, besides my whiteboard

15:31:07 <DanC> if your whiteboard works, more power to you

15:31:51 <pfps> it does what it does well, but of course it doesn't do much - this makes it much better than a lot of other computer stuff

15:32:00 <DanC> I've been pretty much completely dependent on a WearableGizmo that beeps when I have an appointment for the last several years.

15:32:28 <DanC> .google WearableGizmo

15:32:29 <datum> WearableGizmo: http://dm93.org/z2001/WearableGizmo

15:33:29 <DanC> and to think my motto was once "never plan more than 15 minutes ahead" :-(

15:35:20 <ndw> Must have made buying airline tickets awfully hard :-)

15:35:44 <DanC> life was simple. I didn't fly.

15:36:26 <DanC> I mostly wandered around campus listening for "hey, you wanna play volleyball?" and "how about a beer?"

15:36:52 <DanC> I occasionally attended a class or two ;-)

15:37:00 <DanC> I suppose those were scheduled.

15:40:39 * sandro returns from breakfast (beingly differently time-challenged)

15:40:42 <sandro> (Hi, Peter....)

15:40:48 <sandro> (Hi, Bijan....)

15:41:18 <bijan> Hey peter, sandro, etc.

15:41:46 * bijan about to send a intial sorting of issues to public-sw-meaning

15:41:59 <bijan> Peter, I think it would be great to send your Rome thing

15:42:13 * sandro is about to rename NamespaceSquating to NamespaceSquatting and NamespaceDistortion to BadNameReuse (with some rewriting)..... listens for anyone to shout "No, Wait!"

15:44:47 <bijan> Hmm. Looking back at Tim's issue raising, Inotice the false claim:

15:44:49 <bijan> The OWL specification is a vocabulary of properties allowing an RDF

15:44:58 <bijan> document to say things about RDF Properties

15:45:29 <DanC> that's false? news to me.

15:45:37 <sandro> Presumably you want to pick on something deeper than s/Properties/Properties & Classes/ ?

15:45:56 <bijan> To start withthe picky

15:46:03 <bijan> The owl specificaiton is a set of natural language documents

15:46:15 <bijan> Then I don't think its' non-deep that he ommitted classes

15:46:30 <bijan> Given his other statemetns about the primacy of properties

15:46:36 <bijan> But those two suffice to render it false

15:46:45 <bijan> Which is all I claimed

15:46:56 <sandro> "The OWL specification is *of* a vocabulary.... " (does that do it?)

15:47:19 * DanC read it with timbl-glasses on, I guess

15:47:20 <sandro> (not that it couldnt be phrases nicer)

15:47:40 <bijan> sandro, with the classes stuff it there it gets closer

15:47:57 <bijan> But not really

15:48:06 <bijan> It depends on what you me by vocabulary

15:48:17 <bijan> As OWL specifies a quite substatial logic

15:48:21 <bijan> Or set of logics

15:49:21 * DanC has been trying to map things like timbl:vocabulary to traditinal logic literature terminology for the last few years; slow progress

15:49:44 <bijan> I don't believe it maps.

15:49:58 <bijan> In any one-to-one or even reasonably close way

15:50:06 <DanC> ?

15:50:15 * sandro tries to craft a consensus rephrase of Tim's sentence.....

15:50:25 <DanC> I think maybe timbl:vocabulary maps to logic-literarture:formal-system

15:50:41 <bijan> I don't believe he's using a notational varient of traditional logic terminology

15:50:57 <pfps> (getting back to Bijan's comment) - yes - I just opened my laptop to retrieve the document - I'll polish it up and send it out shortly

15:51:04 <bijan> I actually believe it's somewhat incohate, so perhaps your attempts to map can bring about an alignment

15:51:18 * DanC looks up incohate...

15:51:19 <sandro> I think the alignment is getting closer.

15:51:25 <sandro> inchoat

15:51:28 <sandro> e?

15:51:46 <DanC> [[ 1. In an initial or early stage; incipient.

15:51:46 <DanC> 2. Imperfectly formed or developed: a vague, inchoate idea.

15:51:46 <DanC> ]]

15:52:23 * DanC likes bijan's spelling better

15:52:43 <sandro> rephrasing candidate: The OWL specification defines a vocabulary of URIs which can be used in RDF documents to say things about RDF Properties and Classes.

15:55:26 <bijan> Surely it allows saying about indiviuals

15:56:13 <bijan> If only by nominals (assumign that you think rdf:typeing to a class with a complex definition, etc. isn't "new" to owl)

15:57:36 <pfps> I think that Sandro's phrase above is dangerous in that it doesn't allow for relativity of processors to have a place in the meaning

15:59:29 <bijan> pfps: while I have you here, I sent a comment to the public-webont list a ways back about the ambiguity of the O rdf:type owl:Ontology transformations

16:00:16 <bijan> Acutally, about their optionality and repeatibilty

16:00:26 <pfps> I would instead say that the OWL specification provides constraints that can be used in OWL documents to say things about other things ....

16:00:30 <bijan> See: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webont-comments/2003Aug/0002.html

16:01:07 * DanC thinks the WG decided something about bijan's comment yesterday

16:01:55 <pfps> There was a change made yesterday that makes these triples more optional. I'm formulating a draft reply to your comment.

16:02:04 <sandro> Is there any focus or intent behind the kind of things people can say with OWL documents? That's what Tim's getting at, I think.

16:03:01 <bijan> Anyone have a quick pointer to the log namespace rdfs schemas?

16:03:11 <DanC> .google swap log

16:03:12 <datum> swap log: http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/log

16:03:24 <bijan> Thanks

16:03:35 <pfps> Yes there is something more than formalities - however pinning that down is quite hard

16:04:47 <pfps> I also don't know about ``focus'' or ``intent'' - both of these are scary

16:05:14 <DanC> yes, well, language development and deployment is pretty scary

16:05:45 <sandro> lol\

16:05:52 <pfps> There is definitely something to be said about dereferencing URI references to get a document and potentially using that document

16:06:11 * sandro throws his arms up in the air and cheers

16:06:19 * DanC really enjoyed udell's article about language instincts http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/09/17/udell.html

16:06:24 <sandro> (he was afraid we'd have to argue over that point)

16:06:30 <bijan> Uh.

16:06:35 <bijan> Yes. We do :)

16:06:44 * sandro frowns

16:06:53 <bijan> Unless we take the neutral reading of "something to be said" :)

16:06:54 <sandro> It's true, Peter didn't say WHAT was to be said about it.

16:07:01 <pfps> My biggest issue was *mandating* use of mentioned document

16:07:14 <pfps> something *good* ....

16:07:39 * bijan leaves the pragmatics free zone :)

16:08:13 * bijan has sent a discussion starting document to public-sw-meaning

16:08:23 <sandro> I do see flaws with the position I was arguing a year ago that use of a URI constituted assertion of its content. That position is written up as http://esw.w3.org/topic/UseImpliesConsent

16:08:43 * sandro sees Bijan's email now

16:08:47 <bijan> Er...one hopes so

16:09:23 * DanC does not "plan to have anything substantial by ISWC"

16:09:36 <sandro> More to the point, I think I can see something better being possible.

16:09:59 <bijan> Ok, that perhaps was a holdover from a parallel group :)

16:11:36 * bijan sends amendment to the list

16:11:47 <DanC> I would be pleased to see something substantial materialize by ISWC

16:13:28 <bijan> BTW, is The Tim going to participate?

16:13:35 <bijan> I've not seen an intro from him, yet

16:14:56 <DanC> i have reason to believe tim is going to participate. but I don't have any guarnatees

16:15:16 * DanC can't even spell it

16:15:26 <DanC> I think he subscribed

16:15:46 <bijan> ook

16:15:49 <bijan> er

16:15:50 <bijan> ok

16:16:07 <bijan> (oversenstive "o" key)

16:27:20 <DanC> man... speaking of UriSpaceSquatting, network solutions just squatted on *.com

16:27:30 <bijan> DanC: For the record, I want no part of the Wemantic Web :)

16:27:41 <bijan> Sounds a bit rude, actually! :)

16:27:49 <DanC> heh

16:27:54 <bijan> Or something about group maniac

16:28:01 <bijan> "We-manic Web"?

16:28:16 <bijan> Or praying mantis hives

16:28:28 <bijan> We-mantic

16:29:12 <bijan> Given the QWERTY relative positions of the s and w keys, I'm surprised I've never seen (or committed) that type before

16:32:54 * DanC notes the internet immune response to netsol squatting on *.com in http://esw.w3.org/topic/UriSpaceSquatting

16:34:26 * bijan notes that http://www1.bell-labs.com/user/pfps/owl/semantics/ is 404

16:35:18 <bijan> I guess you meant, peter, http://www-db.research.bell-labs.com/user/pfps/owl/semantics/ ?

16:36:06 <pfps> Yes, I type these in free hand

16:38:01 <bijan> The change does the job, I think.

16:38:06 <bijan> And I've so replied

16:38:20 <bijan> I'm still curious as to how to understand muliple Ontologys in a document

16:38:33 <bijan> Espeically in an imports

16:42:46 <bijan> I.e., is there a block on using the owl:Ontology on the rhs of an owl:imports as the O of the Ontology(O...)

16:42:55 <sandro> NamespaceSquating renamed to NamespaceSquatting; BadNameReuse spawned in contrast to NamespaceDistortion

16:47:30 <bijan_> Argh.

16:47:46 <bijan_> Plus, it's unclear what to do if I just have mulitple owl headers.

16:48:12 <bijan_> And I seem to have replied to a not yet response...it's the hurricane, really. Everything's scrambled :)

16:48:21 <pfps> I'm just putting an addendum to the reply.

16:48:56 <pfps> An RDF graph can correspond to multiple ontologies, so the reverse mapping could end up with multiple Ontology(...) pieces

16:49:29 <pfps> In such cases, the assignment of OWL directives to the various ontologies would be unconstrained

16:50:32 <bijan_> Hmm.

16:50:41 <bijan_> That means I'm free to assign none to any ontology I pick?

16:51:06 <bijan_> Or I must assign all (except, maybe, for annotation directrives that don't mention a particualr ont)?

16:51:35 <bijan_> And that means that any time I have an imports with a typed rhs I have the non-determinism?

16:52:07 <bijan_> Which means that one of the Ontology s will have a directive Ontology(O2, o1 owl:impors o2, ....)?

16:52:16 <bijan_> And how do I interpret that imports?

16:52:53 <pfps> Well, you have a clump of directives, each of which has come from some ontology - you could even decide that they all came from some anonymous ontology

16:52:59 <sandro> I think the *.com handling is an example of "no good deed goes unpunished". For most users its very nice.

16:53:25 <pfps> Running the mapping rules in reverse only tellls you whether you are in OWL DL

16:53:50 <pfps> Note that Ontology(...) is not a directive and thus can't be in another ontology

16:54:05 <bijan_> Sorry, one of the Ontology s will *be*...

16:54:06 <JibberJim> Hmm, I'm not so sure I agree sandro, the site is incredibly slow they get feedback eventually, and then access to a crappy search engine, rather than it being obvious they made a mistake.

16:54:21 <bijan_> WIth the "backwards" imports

16:54:50 <bijan_> And doesn't the reverse mapping also give me, if dl, the direct semantics of my document?

16:55:07 <sandro> Hm, right now it's fast, JibberJim, and it's nicely offering me links to sites which are spelling-corrections from what I typed.

16:55:20 <bijan_> Given that which way I go (with lhs or rhs of the imports as primary) I get radically different imports behavior, it seems significant

16:55:54 <pfps> The back translation could be Ontology(a owl:imports(b) ...) Ontology(b ....) where the ....s are the directives. You could even include each directive in each ontology, as this would get the same graph.

16:56:43 <GabeW> not according to the tlapd site

16:56:45 <bijan_> Oops, ok, I'd never get the reverse imports.

16:56:49 <GabeW> gork

16:57:00 <bijan_> Because the producitons all put O first

16:57:38 <bijan_> But I could get Ontolgoy(b..) which, except for no annotations is identical to ontology(a)

16:57:44 <bijan_> Which only matters, mostly, for imports

16:58:42 <bijan_> I don't see that you can include each directive in each ontology

16:59:44 <pfps> What matters is that the RDF graph is the same, and Ontology(a x y z) Ontology(b) produces the same graph(s) as Ontology(a x z) Ontology(b y z)

17:00:34 <bijan_> Ah

17:00:41 <pfps> Actually named ontologies do produce O rdf:type owl:Ontology triples, so you have to have all the same names there.

17:00:57 <bijan_> I didn't realize that Ontology() Ontology() was legal

17:01:20 <bijan_> I was sort of stuck on there being only one top level Ontology

17:01:36 <pfps> Of course, Ontology(a owl:imports(b)) produces the same triples as Ontology(a owl:imports(b)) Ontology(b owl:imports(b))

17:01:55 <pfps> I'm not sure if a totally empty ontology is completely legal -

17:02:01 <bijan_> Sorry

17:02:07 <bijan_> Ontology(...) Ontology(...)

17:02:35 <pfps> Actually Ontology() is legal :-)

17:02:40 <bijan_> Heh

17:02:45 <bijan_> Yep

17:02:49 <bijan_> Line 2 of the table

17:03:07 * bijan_ still years for numbers on that table... :))

17:03:30 <pfps> yearns?

17:03:54 <bijan_> yearns

17:03:56 <bijan_> Yes

17:04:25 * bijan_ y[somethings] for typing/orthographic improvement as well

17:05:07 <DanC> speaking of yearning, my tummy is rumbly

17:05:10 <pfps> numbering sequences in changing documents is not something that I ever want to do.

17:05:22 <pfps> but lunch sounds good.

17:05:27 <bijan_> heh

17:05:40 <bijan_> As long as numbers end up in the final...

17:06:20 <bijan_> bijan_ is now known as bijan

17:13:43 * bijan wonders if he should also offer to reluctantly chair the public-sw-meaning telecons...

17:14:18 * sandro was just wondering the same thing about himself. at least he doesnt have a position to argue....

17:14:39 <sandro> (much)

17:14:52 <sandro> I really just want the damn thing to work.

17:15:02 <sandro> and make sense, too

17:19:23 <bijan> I just nominated you, sandro :)

17:19:39 <bijan> You can thank me later :)

17:23:41 <sandro> gee, thanks.

17:24:07 * sandro wonders how facetious he was being about not having a position to argue. :-)

17:24:49 <sandro> the real problem with chairing is........ gosh, it's hard.

17:25:42 <metazool> public-sw-meaning?

17:25:58 * danbri should unlurk there

17:26:21 <danbri> see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sw-meaning/ zool

17:28:56 <DanC> .google public-sw-meaning

17:28:59 <datum> public-sw-meaning: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sw-meaning/2003May/0001.html

17:30:16 <danbri>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jun/0180.html

17:30:16 <dc_rdfig> C: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jun/0180.html from danbri

17:30:31 <sandro> DanC, what's the advantage of UriSchemes/foo over UriSchemesFoo? Does the / get you anything cool?

17:30:44 <danbri> C:|My 'social meaning' proposal from a year ago, tweaked by PatH during RDFCore WG f2f.

17:30:44 <dc_rdfig> Titled item C.

17:30:54 <danbri> C:This was before it became known by that name.

17:30:55 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C1.

17:30:58 <DanC> dunno how cool it is, but on UriSchemes you can just write /foo . (well, ["/foo"])

17:31:05 <danbri> C:I still stand by this position, more or less...

17:31:05 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C2.

17:32:16 * sandro trying on the mantle of chairing the telecon thinks more seriously about using the Wiki as group space, eg for meeting info.

17:34:09 * sandro ... gets a little stuck on not having a good name WikiName for the group. :-/

17:35:21 * DanC is reminded of the ritual of little league soccer teams naming themselves...

17:35:40 <DanC> SocialMeaningGroup works for me

17:36:26 <sandro> Was it Danny who was so vehement against "Social" being in the name of the mailing list?

17:36:49 * sandro never did little league: what's the ritual?

17:36:51 <DanC> I associate that more with timbl

17:38:14 <sandro> These days I lean more towards UriMeaning, but there's something to be said for historical continuity

17:38:14 <DanC> coach: we need a name. what should it be? Joe: snotballs! coach: heh, well, how about the tigers? several: yeah! tigers! Billy: wildcats! yeah! wildcats! no, tigers! (repeat for 3 minutes) coach: ok, sharks it is!

17:38:28 <sandro> lol

17:38:29 <DanC> coach: ok, everybody, on 3: 1... 2... 3... goooooo SHARKS!

18:00:26 * sandro refactors History out of SocialMeaningGroup to make room for new/other stuff

18:02:20 * sandro reads danbri's thing from 18Jun; doesnt love it; doesnt really disagree either; not sure what to do with it.

19:06:47 * dajobe looks at A:

19:07:01 <dajobe> the css was the next step

19:07:08 <dajobe> hmm, fake tables

19:14:51 <GabeW> anybody willing to answer a generic XML & Media Types question?

19:16:03 <GabeW> ok, guess not ;-)

19:16:59 <JibberJim> Real questions are always better than meta questions GabeW

19:17:13 <GabeW> fair enough

19:18:10 <GabeW> ok, so the convention per rfc 3023 is application/something+xml for xml documents (ie application/rdf+xml)

19:18:48 <GabeW> my question is two part: 1) is it common practice to register specific media types for different XML document types and 2) how much work is this (in the real world)...

19:19:07 <GabeW> i see registrations it for soap & rdf

19:19:37 <GabeW> I'm wondering whether its worth the effort for something I'm doing or whether I should just require application/xml (or text/xml)

19:19:56 <sandro> Given how many actually DocTypes there are, and how few RFCs have ever been published, I'd have to say it's not common practice.

19:21:15 <GabeW> but so do people use unregistered media types or do they just not use doctype-specific media types?

19:21:43 <JibberJim> but at the same time, it's not that useful to serve something up as application/xml any more than it is to serve something up as application/octetstream - there's not really much info there.

19:22:00 <GabeW> true

19:22:18 * GabeW is just trying to be pedantic here and try to follow the intent of the media type specs

19:22:30 <JibberJim> a vnd. or prs. type might be fine?

19:22:34 <GabeW> well

19:22:48 <GabeW> someone was talking about an oasis vnd tree

19:22:58 <GabeW> but I don't see that really registered anywhere

19:24:03 <GabeW> (this is a spec at Oasis)

19:25:44 <golbeck_> golbeck_ is now known as golbeck

19:26:02 <GabeW> hmm

19:26:29 <GabeW> I spose I could propose a x- media type until further notice

19:28:34 <GabeW> blech

19:29:53 <GabeW> i spose its REALLY taboo to use a unregistered media type (outside of x-)?

19:30:35 <JibberJim> no, it's a well supported activity of the W3, based on some vague handwaving that they're working out a better way of doing it with the IETF... you could say the same...

19:31:01 <GabeW> JibberJim: haha

19:31:11 <JibberJim> ie, the wholly inappropriate image/svg+xml

19:31:11 <GabeW> i've read about the difficulties

19:31:41 <GabeW> is the proposal for URIs-as-Media-Types still brewing?

19:35:32 <dajobe> I tweaked the chatlogs

19:35:43 <dajobe> css style to match more like karlcow's suggestion

19:36:05 <dajobe> see http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2003-09-19.html

19:37:13 * JibberJim preferred the old...

19:37:24 <JibberJim> I find the different coloured backgrounds hard to read.

19:38:00 <dajobe> that's a common visual imparement IIRC

19:38:20 <verbosus> dajobe: could you add some more spacing between that vertical black line and the content on the right (ie, the messages content)?

19:38:29 <dajobe> possibly

19:38:35 <dajobe> it's using fake tables so some things aren't possible

19:39:32 <zoyd> if someone had a long nick, it would be very unreadable.

19:39:32 <verbosus> padding-left: something-more;

19:39:46 <verbosus> Does IRC impose limits on the size of one’s nick?

19:39:57 <dajobe> ok, done & lost blue background there

19:40:20 <dajobe> I prefered bold nicks myself

19:40:28 <zoyd> whatever the upper limit is, it's still going to be very ugly.

19:40:30 <verbosus> The typography is still a bit uneven.

19:40:47 <dajobe> so old style better? http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2003-09-17.html

19:40:48 <verbosus> How about more line-height:?

19:41:06 <JibberJim> any chance of alternate CSS link element so I can swap back to the old?

19:41:20 <dajobe> I'm not committed to it yet

19:42:14 <zoyd> dajobe, the old style was really better.

19:42:26 * mattb finds the table style hard to connect comments on the right with nicks on the left

19:42:26 <dajobe> heh

19:42:40 <mattb> with the old style, a long line overran and made it clear the same nick was still talking

19:42:41 <dajobe> well, since I mdae the old style, that's kinda good ;)

19:42:45 <dajobe> true

19:43:06 <dajobe> darn, how do I add two stylesheet links

19:43:18 <mattb> might be ok if there was inter-line spacing

19:43:21 <Cardinal> rel="alternate stylesheet" title="old"

19:43:44 <Cardinal> Then everybody except IE users can simply pick the one they want from their browser's menu.

19:43:55 <dajobe> seems to be more vots for old style

19:44:04 <Cardinal> title="new" then. :)

19:44:06 <JibberJim> and IE users use a javascript bookmarklet...

19:44:16 <dajobe> should have both there now

19:45:06 <dajobe> maybe the fonts/colour change alone is enough

19:45:19 <verbosus> dajobe: switching the black line to some pale grey and putting back the bold nick should do it.

19:46:21 <dajobe> let's see

19:47:22 <verbosus> Not bad. I would put even more padding-left to the message contents.

19:47:41 <dajobe> I messed up the nick padding

19:47:49 <dajobe> what does it go? padding: left, ...

19:48:01 <verbosus> padding-left: something;

19:48:28 <dajobe> top, right, bottom, left

19:48:51 <verbosus> Yeah.

19:50:20 <dajobe> let's highlight actions

19:52:19 * dajobe makes it so

19:53:16 <dajobe> I should right-align the nicks

19:53:20 <dajobe> that'll help I think

19:54:09 <dajobe> ok, the xchat emulation is complete

19:54:22 * verbosus screams for the last time, and then will stop whining: more padding! :-)

19:55:09 <dajobe> if you like, have 1em

19:55:43 <verbosus> On both sides? (The outer can be specified with margin-left: 1em as well).

19:55:56 <dajobe> you said padding

19:56:16 <verbosus> Heh, I also said I would have stop whining, but then again: I’m a liar :-)

19:56:27 <verbosus> s/stop/stopped/

19:56:27 <JimJibber> JimJibber is now known as JibberJim

19:56:57 <dajobe> right, I'm switching over

19:57:18 * verbosus stops whining.

19:58:08 <dajobe> what browsers does it look ok in? I'm using mozila-firebird (so pretty much any gecko one I guess)

19:58:26 <verbosus> Safari on Mac (KHTML/WebKit) is fine.

19:58:55 <dajobe> A:partially inspired by this, I changed the chatlogs CSS somewhat. Removed the colour backgrounds to help accessibility. Added a bit more padding and re-hilighted nicks. actions and topics are emphasised

19:58:56 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A4.

19:59:12 <Cardinal> Opera 7's good.

19:59:17 <dajobe> any IE?

19:59:34 <Cardinal> IE will ignore the fake table stuff.

19:59:52 <JibberJim> IE won't "ignore it" entirely.

19:59:55 <Cardinal> Heh. Yeah, not a pretty sight. :)

20:00:09 <dajobe> hmm, I need a little fix for lynx

20:00:16 <Cardinal> Well, it doesn't support display: table*

20:00:46 <JibberJim> Hmm, it should not be being served as text/html anyway, so I don't think you should expect it to work in HTML ua's like IE.

20:11:02 <GabeW> grumble

20:12:04 <GabeW> so, a spec that declares a XML namespace with an HTTP URI, and then doesn't mention that the normative schema lives at that HTTP URI is broken (or at least underspecified), right? Or am I missing something?

20:12:37 <dajobe> it's at least rude

20:12:45 <GabeW> heh

20:14:07 * GabeW isn't sure what "rude" means in this context, but I'll take that as agreement to my reaction ;-)

20:14:54 <dajobe> impolite; if they use the uri, there should at least be something there

20:15:56 <GabeW> well, there is, the question is whether not mentioning the fact that the normative schema is what is there (rather than assuming the reader infers that)

20:16:58 <dajobe> the link between namespace uris and what you get when you GET it, is still being worked out

20:17:29 <GabeW> well

20:17:44 <GabeW> yah - and even then its only convention

20:18:18 <GabeW> ws-addressing states "A normative XML Schema document can be obtained by dereferencing the XML namespace URI."

20:18:42 <GabeW> that statement is a solution to this problem

20:18:46 <dajobe> that's nice

20:18:50 <dajobe> but what does XML schema say?

20:19:10 <dajobe> IIRC they don't hence schemaLocation

20:19:12 <JibberJim> but makes it rather difficult to use other peoples namespaces, since if you don't control the URI, how can ensure that constraint?

20:19:23 <GabeW> JibberJim: thats right

20:19:32 <GabeW> but if you are *defining* the namespace, then I spose its OK

20:19:49 <dajobe> in prose I assume

20:20:04 <dajobe> since "Namespaces in XML" does not tell you how to do it

20:20:33 <sandro> Hm. Does that mean an XML Schema document will be returned by an HTTP GET on the namespace URI? Or that I need some kind of special POST? Or that GET will get me human readable instructions for how to get the schema? That phrasing is ambiguous on these matters.

20:20:49 <GabeW> well, ok, so a declaration that "documents in this namespace must conform to the schema which is retrieved through the HTTP URL which is the name of the XML Namespace"

20:20:57 <sandro> (OF course it shouldnt be HTTP specific.... so it's tough.)

20:21:08 <dajobe> documents in a namespace?

20:21:13 <GabeW> sorry

20:21:17 <dajobe> surely that should be names in a namespace

20:21:32 <GabeW> documents declaring an outer element in this namespace (or something)

20:21:47 <GabeW> thats good enough for me by far

20:22:03 <sandro> "Documents which have a root element in the namespace..."

20:22:10 <GabeW> there should be some well worded language that all spec writers can use

20:22:16 <GabeW> instead of using *no* language ;-)

20:22:25 <sandro> Anyway, the TAG is trying to reach some decision on this.....

20:22:35 <sandro> Some people think nothing is better than something bad.

20:22:38 <GabeW> hmm

20:22:45 <GabeW> i'm not sure why this requires a finding or something

20:23:03 <GabeW> its up to each spec writer, really

20:23:30 <GabeW> I guess it might be good to get official blessing on some accurate wording

20:24:04 * sandro floored at div.log {display: table;} etc. No idea you could do that.

20:25:05 <sandro> The TAG should try to let people know Best Practice here, at least. Suggest what you should put at the namespace, and suggest what people should do with what they find at the namespace.

20:25:16 <GabeW> sandro: sure, that'd be good.

20:25:32 <GabeW> but ultimately, each spec writer is going to have to include specific wording

20:26:31 <GabeW> i mean, they could say "the schema that declares valid documents with root elements in this namespace can be retrieved by doing an HTTP GET on url <url> and then performing rot13"...

20:26:40 <sandro> Why can't it be part of using XML with namespaces?

20:26:40 <GabeW> heh

20:26:59 <GabeW> it could be, I spose

20:27:15 <sandro> It would be perfectly readonable to have said something in XML Namespaces 1.0, and they could do it in 2.0, right?

20:27:52 <GabeW> but merely declaring a namespace using an HTTP URI shouldn't neccesarily mean that the normative schema is retrieveable there *for all time, in all cases* should it?

20:27:56 <GabeW> I'm not sure what you are proposing.

20:28:54 <sandro> I'm not proposing any particular protocol here; just saying that it would be really nice to have everyone use the same protocol, if a good one can be found, and that the good one could be specified for all XML, probably.

20:29:27 <GabeW> wait, so verisign gets to control my xml schema? ;-)

20:29:32 * GabeW ducks

20:29:40 <GabeW> anyway

20:30:37 <sandro> Just because some armed bandits can take over my house doesn't mean they legally own my house. They might "0wn" it I suppose. :-)

20:30:57 <GabeW> i'd love to continue discussing this.. but i must run

20:31:02 <sandro> Ciao

20:31:29 <GabeW> its bugs me a little that using a HTTP URI for your namespace requires you to maintain content at that URI, but I'm just me and I'm hungry and so I run

20:31:45 <GabeW> sorry, make that *would require*

20:32:13 * GabeW runs for real - thanks for hearing me out

20:42:02 <dajobe>http://iweb.etri.re.kr/ezowl/

20:42:03 <dc_rdfig> D: http://iweb.etri.re.kr/ezowl/ from dajobe

20:42:14 <dajobe> D:|ezOWL Visual Semantic Web Ontology Editor

20:42:15 <dc_rdfig> Titled item D.

20:42:23 <dajobe> D:a plugin for Protege-2000

20:42:24 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D1.

20:43:33 <dajobe> D:oh please: "beckham.owl ? A junk ontology that explains why David Beckham left Manchester."

20:43:33 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D2.

20:43:52 <Cardinal> Interesting, I was just at another site with that same template. (http://witme.sf.net/libferris.web/)

20:44:11 <dajobe> D:from a link nearby to [http://protege.stanford.edu/plugins/owl/owl-library/|protege OWL ontology library]

20:44:12 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D3.

20:53:24 <sandro> btw, GabeW, it bugs me too.

20:53:40 <sandro> but there aren't many better ideas. I have a few, though.

20:53:45 <sandro> :)

21:06:49 * GabeW is back

21:07:02 <GabeW> i feel wierd bugging the *rdf* irc channel about this

21:07:10 <GabeW> but I don't know of any #specgeeks channel

21:09:37 <verbosus> GabeW: you are not alone wondering on this issue.

21:10:29 <GabeW> on a need for #specgeeks?

21:12:19 * verbosus is there

22:28:05 <ndw> ndw is now known as ndw^afk

23:13:21 <sandro> how would you charter #specgeeks? I suspect the overlap with #rdfig is enormous.

23:13:48 <GabeW> you talking to *me*

23:13:49 <GabeW> ?

23:13:57 * GabeW does his best DeNiro

23:15:03 <JibberJim> specgeeks is more for the AA people whereas rdfig is for those still in denial.

23:17:29 <GabeW> AA?

23:18:26 <tav> tav is now known as tav|offline

23:18:35 <JibberJim> Alcoholics anonymous,

23:18:58 <JibberJim> put for people who have accepted their role and are on the 12 step plan...

23:20:38 <tav|offline> tav|offline is now known as tav

23:23:15 <GabeW> right

23:23:23 <GabeW> I wasn't sure how that had to do with specs ;-)

23:23:33 <GabeW> i guess that makes me in denial

23:23:54 <GabeW> specgeeks for me, is about not bothering rdf people with pedantic xml namespaces questions, for example

23:24:08 <GabeW> or pedantic HTTP questions, etc

23:24:19 <GabeW> and general discussion about the best way to write specs (ie best practices,etc)