Semantic Web Interest Group IRC Chat Logs for 2003-09-29

00:57:13 <tav> tav is now known as tav|offline

01:00:25 <tav|offline> tav|offline is now known as tav

02:44:27 <zacker> zacker is now known as zack-gone

03:13:42 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

03:19:52 <Davey> I still can't find a decent example of RdfCalendar... or like, a decent explanation of its elements and such

03:50:46 <Davey> ack, I missed libby :/

03:50:50 <Davey> woah... shes british.

03:52:32 <danbri> lot of it about, old chap

03:52:40 <Davey> hmm?

03:52:50 <danbri> britishness in #rdfig :)

03:52:57 <Davey> oh, awesome ;)

03:53:07 * danbri comes out of the brit closet

03:53:11 <Davey> haha

03:53:58 <Cardinal> Yeah, it's not easy being American around here ;)

03:54:39 <Davey> hehe

03:54:52 <Davey> so theres lot of semantic web people in england?

03:55:04 <danbri> a fair number

03:55:05 <Davey> cause the PHP people here are very few and far between

03:55:24 <Davey> I can name 5 people in england who are pretty good with PHP... I'm one of them.

03:55:34 <Davey> imajes, markl, steph fox, wez, myself.

03:55:42 <Davey> of course, I'm like bottom of the pile ;)

03:56:02 <danbri> that compares pretty bad to perl, java etc...

03:56:20 <Davey> well, it does mean I have a good chance of standing out here :)

03:56:48 <danbri> I never understood why the world needed another language w/ PHP, but am told it's fast(er than perl cgi), easy to make things quickly etc...

03:57:12 <Davey> why does the world need another language than ASM? :)

03:57:46 <danbri> sure :)

03:57:54 <Davey> I honestly, can't talk about any other language than PHP, its what I started with, and I love it. It allows me to really do some amazing stuffs

03:58:01 <danbri> it seemed peculiarly coupled to a particular deployment scenario

03:58:11 <Davey> how so?

03:58:17 <danbri> but then i thought that about javascript too, til I met Jim here who uses it for everything

03:58:31 <danbri> writing '.php scripts', versus being a general purpose lang

03:58:47 <Davey> oh, well its certainly *geared* towards using it for the web

03:59:02 <Davey> but its also possible to write anything from a daemon to a shell script in it :)

03:59:04 <danbri> ie. seems (I may be wrong...) that it mostly gets used wrapped behind http

03:59:13 * danbri nods

03:59:22 <Cardinal> Possible, albiet not necessarily wise.

03:59:24 <Davey> I just wrote an article on using PHP for daemons :)

03:59:28 <danbri> have you played with RAP at all? the RDF library...

03:59:36 <Davey> Cardinal: definately, you'd like my article ;)

03:59:41 <Davey> I haven't danbri

04:00:08 <Davey> Cardinal: my article was about demonstrating Sockets, PCNTL, POSIX and Shared Memory, the natural example was a daemon

04:00:28 <Davey> but I do also note that its more often than not the wrong langauge for the job :)

04:00:54 <Davey> the article is quite satirical :)

04:01:30 <Davey> Cardinal: the article tag line is "PHP is not always the best tool for the job; this is one of those times. "

04:01:57 <Davey> and I end with this: Remember, ultimately, it’s the right tool for the right job, and PHP has its little niche as a daemon language... somewhere.

04:02:20 <Davey> but anyways, back to the *semantic* web ;)

04:02:39 <Davey> Cardinal: do you think browsers would care if I used XSD?

05:42:04 <zack-gone> zack-gone is now known as zacker

06:10:22 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

06:47:53 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

06:49:38 <Cardinal> A:| A test of sending XHTML as application/xhtml+xml

06:49:39 <dc_rdfig> Titled item A.

09:15:57 <zoyd> in rdfical, is it necessary for uid to be a sha1sum?

09:16:20 <libby> no, not at all

09:16:46 <Davey> libby!

09:17:17 <Davey> libby: I have been seeing your name *everywhere* all night. You are pretty damn active within this community it seems :)

09:17:56 <libby> heh :)

09:18:12 <Davey> libby: I had a few questions for you regarding RdfCalendar...

09:18:32 <libby> see the icalendar rfc http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2445.txt. we are floowing that closel. basically it shoudl be a globally unique id

09:18:48 <libby> I've really got to run but will be back couple hours

09:18:55 <zoyd> one sec.

09:18:55 <Davey> seeya libby :)

09:18:59 <libby> put them here and I'll answer if I can :)

09:19:04 <zoyd> so, it can be a md5sum too?

09:19:23 <libby> dont see why not...if globally unique...

09:19:31 <zoyd> ok, bye.

09:19:32 <libby> would have to check...

09:19:37 <libby> seeya

09:20:26 <Davey> ah-hah, zoyd, I see you are using RdfCalendar too :)

09:21:06 <Davey> zoyd: Where are you learning the markup for it?

09:21:37 <zoyd> Davey: sure am .. completely useless as of now, hope that changes.

09:21:57 <zoyd> using ical2rdf.pl *grin*

09:22:10 <Davey> aaah, how do you generate the ical stuff? :)

09:22:37 <zoyd> Davey: hint: Mozilla Calendar.

09:22:44 <Davey> I'm organising a conference here, I'd like to be able to markup the timetable for the event (over 4 days) using RdfCalendar.... I wonder if such a thing is even possible

09:22:51 <Davey> hmm, Mozilla has a calendar?

09:23:15 <zoyd> http://www.mozilla.org/projects/calendar/

09:23:54 <Davey> oooh, yeah just found it on google :)

09:24:06 <zoyd> Davey: i bet i was faster.

09:24:15 <Davey> no, actually, you weren't ;)

09:24:20 <Davey> I was already installing :D

09:24:34 * zoyd slaps his irc client

09:26:04 <Davey> *very* sweet

09:26:45 <zoyd> the UI is nice and clean.

09:28:01 <Davey> how detailed does this allow you to be I wonder

09:28:15 <Davey> I want to go "Starts Here, Ends Here and this is the timetable of everything in between"

09:28:33 <Davey> I think I need to have events and tasks

09:28:41 <Davey> event being the conference and tasks being the talks

09:29:27 <zoyd> why not every talk being an event.

09:29:46 <Davey> not sure how that'll work out

09:30:11 <zoyd> so, Event 1: Conf2003 Opening, Event 2: Conf2003 Some talk, etc.

09:30:36 <Davey> yeah, but I need something that runs end to end (the conference) and contains certain tasks...

09:30:42 <Davey> this seems most logical

10:03:20 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

11:06:13 <Talliesin> are typed literals tidy or untidy these days (I can never remember)

11:15:48 <libby> <Davey> I still can't find a decent example of RdfCalendar... or like, a decent explanation of its elements and such

11:16:03 <D[a]vey> libby: I'm finding dribs and drabs :)

11:16:04 <libby> is http://esw.w3.org/topic/RdfCalendarDocumentation no good?

11:16:15 <libby> yeah we havnnt; done too many docs yet

11:16:20 <libby> we will...

11:16:28 <libby> any adviceon what's missing would be cool

11:16:41 <D[a]vey> why the HECK haven't I come across that document before?

11:16:46 <D[a]vey> I'm learning from ical2rdf output :)

11:17:00 <libby> what we ussually do is output as icalendar and then use ical2rdf.pl to generate the RDFical

11:17:05 <libby> :)

11:17:07 <libby> great

11:17:13 <D[a]vey> lol :D

11:17:24 <D[a]vey> I'm gonna write a PHP class for PEAR to output RDF :)

11:17:29 <libby> those docs are only a start though...advice on what's needed would eb great

11:17:35 <libby> what's PEAR?

11:17:40 <dajobe> ditto

11:17:42 <D[a]vey>http://pear.php.net

11:17:43 <dc_rdfig> A: http://pear.php.net from D[a]vey

11:18:02 <dajobe> oh, a php cpan

11:18:07 <libby> neat!

11:18:11 <D[a]vey> yeah, except it doesn't suck ;)

11:18:14 <libby> love the favicon :)

11:18:29 <D[a]vey> heh

11:18:29 <dajobe> how does it not suck?

11:18:52 <D[a]vey> dajobe: its not CPAN ;)

11:19:01 <dajobe> thanks for the enlighenment

11:19:04 <D[a]vey> hehe

11:19:12 <D[a]vey> this is not the channel to get into such debates :)

11:19:21 <D[a]vey> I'm biased too, I'm a PEAR-DEV :)

11:19:25 <dajobe> well tell me something useful what it does that's different from CPAN

11:20:21 <D[a]vey> well, theres less duplication, more integration between packages, a better, more QA process for packages getting in and such

11:20:37 <dajobe> more cathedral than bazaar then

11:20:45 <dajobe> ugh, I quoted Raymond

11:21:15 <D[a]vey> lol

11:21:36 <dajobe> A:|PHP Extension and Application Repository - PEAR

11:21:36 <dc_rdfig> Titled item A.

11:21:39 <D[a]vey> ack, whats the Geo* thing again?

11:21:45 <D[a]vey> whats its name?

11:22:05 <D[a]vey> GeoInfo :)

11:22:17 <dajobe> you mean http://esw.w3.org/topic/GeoInfo

11:23:08 <D[a]vey> yes, thats it :)

11:23:09 <D[a]vey> thanks

11:25:34 <D[a]vey> libby: what you need, ideally, is a list of elements in their tree heirarchy, with a description and an example of each one

11:26:01 <dajobe> so what exactly are you going to put in PEAR that's not in the phpxml rdf classes?

11:26:09 <dajobe> libby's just gone out for food/lunch I think

11:26:38 <dajobe> or RAP http://www.wiwiss.fu-berlin.de/suhl/bizer/rdfapi/

11:27:28 <D[a]vey> dajobe: I'm going to be writing a small package which will allow you to do like $calendar->add_event('Foo',$start_time,$end_time); and at the end it'll output as RdfCalendar format XML

11:27:39 <dajobe> ok

11:29:01 <D[a]vey> I may also think about writing a File_iCalendar package for goign from RdfCalendar to iCal and for creating iCal from scratch. If I do that, I'll add the ability to go from iCal 2 RdfCalendar in XMl_RdfCalendar

11:31:09 <libby> ooh

11:31:19 * libby nearly went for lunch, got diutracted

11:31:20 <D[a]vey> http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss#requiredChannelElements <--- see how the RSS spec is layed out? Something like that for RdfCalendar would be awesome.

11:31:21 <dc_rdfig> B: http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss#requiredChannelElements from D[a]vey

11:31:43 <D[a]vey> B:|RSS 2.0 Specification

11:31:44 <dc_rdfig> Titled item B.

11:31:44 <libby> ok

11:31:51 <libby> makes sense

11:32:09 <libby> d[a]vey, have you dont much RDF stuff?,

11:32:12 <libby> done even?

11:32:19 <D[a]vey> libby: nope

11:32:41 <D[a]vey> s/nope/none except this/

11:33:05 <libby> I only ask because RDF voiocabs dont have a fixed xml representation - in general you need an RDF parser

11:33:39 <D[a]vey> now, this Cardinal was telling me about earlier...

11:33:41 <libby> parsing rdf as xml is trciky unless you control the format of the RDF

11:34:07 <D[a]vey> yes, this I understand (to a point)

11:34:11 <libby> in the rdfical case this migh5t be possible (at least for a while) because there are only two ways of generating it at the moment

11:34:14 <libby> ok, cool

11:34:24 <libby> didn;t want you to waste a bunch of time is all

11:34:59 <D[a]vey> can the <Vcalendar> and its child element be expressed in a different way?

11:35:17 <D[a]vey> elements

11:35:22 <libby> it may be that a schematron schema or simlar for profiles of rdfical would be a good idea. but icalendar itself is not ordered, so converters from ical to rdfical are not ordered either....

11:35:56 * libby thinks....

11:36:03 <D[a]vey> does it need to be ordered as such?

11:36:56 <libby> You should always have one or more top level vcalendars, and anythign inside shoudl be wrapped in components, but I couldnt; tell you offhand if you might get a different version sometimes.

11:37:14 <libby> theorticall you could, e.g. a very bad rdf outputter (I've got one of those)

11:37:32 <libby> ordering....not sure....

11:37:48 <libby> I guess not (I'm not very used to working with plain xml)

11:39:02 <libby> try the bottom query on this page for really horrible output: http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/discovery/2001/08/codepict/rdfxmlquery.html

11:39:17 <libby> (the other queries are too slow to work at the moment!

11:39:18 <libby> )

11:39:32 <libby> ...on the other hand you are unlikely to accross anything like that really

11:39:41 <D[a]vey> libby: you know, if you just update http://esw.w3.org/topic/RdfCalendarDocumentation and put an example of each element (or set of elements if its a case of parents needing the child) that would be sufficient I think...

11:39:52 <libby> normally, you'd get stuff generated by some icalendar tool

11:40:06 <libby> ok, thanks D[a]vey

11:40:35 <D[a]vey> theres some things I've seen in some of the examples on the site that I can't see where they come from

11:41:01 <libby> got an example?

11:41:12 <D[a]vey> http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/test/20030115mtg.rdf <---

11:41:13 <dc_rdfig> C: http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/test/20030115mtg.rdf from D[a]vey

11:41:25 <D[a]vey> the organizer and attendee elements

11:41:58 <libby> can;t see where they come from? do you mean no docsumentation? or is the original not there...

11:41:59 <D[a]vey> and what about valarm too? thats not of that page either...

11:41:59 <libby> ?

11:42:01 * libby looks

11:42:27 <D[a]vey> I'm asking, is that something in ical? or is it something you've added?

11:43:01 <libby> no, that's something in ical

11:43:26 * D[a]vey saw nothing in Mozilla Calendar for that, hence some confusion, I guess

11:43:27 <libby> none of the examples have any other namespece stuff in apart from the x-propert namespaces, which come from the icalendar examples)

11:43:46 <libby> different tools do diferent outputs. Apple ical will allow you to invie people to a meeting etc

11:43:53 <D[a]vey> ah, cool :)

11:44:22 <Wack> Wack is now known as _Wack

11:46:06 <D[a]vey> libby: is there any scope for putting a FOAF file in as part of the info for an <organizer> or <attendee> ?

11:46:24 <libby> I'd really like to dop that, yes

11:46:42 <D[a]vey> because that would be quite cool for what I'm doing...

11:47:15 <libby> I think that you might be able to use <attendee><foaf:Person><foaf:mbox_sha1sum....> as well as the ical properties.

11:47:26 * libby might have an e.g. somewhere, hang on

11:47:43 <D[a]vey> well, all I'm looking for is a link... ideally.

11:48:03 <D[a]vey> because with huge numbers of people, putting their FOAF into the RdfCalendar itself would be ugly...

11:49:05 <D[a]vey> see, what I'm *trying* to do, is use RdfCalendar for all the date data for my conference, FOAF for all the people data, GeoInfo for all the geographical data and then something I haven't decided for the text data on the site, and then I'll tie it all together using PHP and XSLT for output to various platforms and such

11:49:11 <libby> well, mbox_sha1sum is used to link references to people together. you just need that, not the whole foaf file

11:49:19 <D[a]vey> aaah, cool :)

11:49:27 <libby> blimey! sounds excelelnt

11:49:35 <D[a]vey> yes... I hope it will be :)

11:49:49 <D[a]vey> I want the entire website for the conference to be a testament to what can be achieved :)

11:50:09 <D[a]vey> and its a nice chance to really push myself (and anyone else interested in joining it ;)

11:50:20 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

11:51:05 <libby> it sounds great :) I'm happy to help if I can

11:51:12 <Davey> that would be great :)

11:51:24 <Davey> it would be nice if you could attend too... being as its in england :)

11:52:05 <Davey> you could even speak if you want to submit a paper :)

11:53:26 <Davey> I've really got a lot to learn in one week... course, none of the actual *data* is there yet. Hehe

11:56:40 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

11:57:26 <libby> hm, I'll have a proper look...

11:57:47 <libby> - see http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/discovery/2003/09/foafcal/foaficaleg.rdf for an example of foaf and rdfical

11:57:58 <libby> geo could be done similarly

11:58:56 <libby> oops that's not right, hang on

12:01:54 <libby> fixed now. there are 2 ways to do it

12:03:41 * JibberJim thinks the first is fine...

12:03:52 <JibberJim> although Vevent is a subClassof of foaf:Agent ?

12:04:06 <libby> eh?

12:04:22 <JibberJim> homepage has domain of foaf:Agent doesn't it?

12:04:41 <libby> no, the attendee is (let's pretend) a subcass of foaf:Agent

12:04:51 <libby> oh, sorry

12:04:57 <libby> yeah, I guess so!

12:05:03 <libby> actually I dont know

12:05:35 <libby> yes yuo are right

12:05:46 <JibberJim> Yeah, I've no problem on the attendee part, I think foaf:homepage may be too narrowly defined.

12:05:54 <libby> sure

12:06:08 <libby> I'll email the list

12:06:16 <libby> chers for spotting that!

12:06:41 <libby> I think we definitelywant events to ahve homepages

12:07:00 <JibberJim> yes, lots of things other than "things which do things" deserve a foaf:homepage

12:07:04 <tav> tav is now known as salokcin`

12:07:08 <libby> yeah

12:07:09 <salokcin`> salokcin` is now known as tav

12:27:34 <D[a]vey> libby: thanks :D

12:28:00 <libby> no prob

12:30:04 <D[a]vey> it seems that actually having a set of basic elements that go inside <attendee> or <organizer> OR a <foaf:person> would be a nice way to do this... but that would probably break the rdfical > ical conversion

12:30:36 <libby> we could maybe change the conversion

12:30:40 <libby> tools

12:30:45 <libby> or one of them (mine :)

12:30:59 <D[a]vey> sure, grab in the FOAF definition and read the elements ical can use from there...

12:31:14 <libby> so if there was a attendee or organiser and a email addr, be easy to simultaneously generate the foaf terms too

12:31:35 <libby> whether Person is there doesn;t matter to many foaf tools, but does to some

12:32:10 <libby> <attendee rdf:parseType='Resource'>

12:32:10 <libby> <calAddress rdf:resource="mailto:libby.miller@bristol.ac.uk"/>

12:32:11 <libby> <foaf:mbox_sha1sum>289d4d44325d0b0218edc856c8c3904fa3fd2875</foaf:mbox_sha1sum>

12:32:11 <libby> </attendee>

12:32:15 <libby> is probably fine

12:32:36 <libby> I'd be a bit wary of making public a lot of emails mind you

12:32:54 <D[a]vey> I'm thinking more of putting the same data you put inside <foaf:knows> inside the <attendee> or <organizer> elements

12:33:08 <libby> so maybe skip caladdress altgether... <attendee>

12:33:08 <libby> <foaf:Person>

12:33:08 <libby> <foaf:mbox_sha1sum>362ce75324396f0aa2d3e5f1246f40bf3bb44401</foaf:mbox_sha1sum>

12:33:08 <libby> </foaf:Person>

12:33:08 <libby> </attendee>

12:33:27 <JibberJim> Is that right libby, they're not equivalent?

12:33:44 <libby> are what not?

12:34:07 <libby> caladdress and mbox?

12:34:25 <D[a]vey> <attendee>

12:34:25 <D[a]vey> <foaf:Person>

12:34:25 <D[a]vey> <foaf:name>Davey Shafik</foaf:name>

12:34:25 <D[a]vey> <foaf:mbox_sha1sum>26b2e3834d83a5ca3fc81e5a942862f7a2bcb653</foaf:mbox_sha1sum>

12:34:25 <D[a]vey> <rdfs:seeAlso rdf:resource="http://www.pixelated-dreams.com/blog/foaf.rdf"/>

12:34:25 <D[a]vey> </foaf:Person>

12:34:27 <D[a]vey> <attendee>

12:34:29 <D[a]vey> I was thinking, more like that.

12:34:31 <JibberJim> the <attendee><sha1sum/></attendee> is different to <attendee><foaf:Person><sha1sum></foaf:Person></attendee>

12:34:58 <libby> that looks fine Davey

12:35:21 <libby> dunno, my tools would process them equivalently jim...

12:35:23 <JibberJim> wouldn't you need an rdf:Description or something in the first anyway to have the multiple properties?

12:35:41 <libby> it's <attendee rdf:parseType='Resource'>, so I think ok

12:35:53 <libby> that's just the way it comes out of the ical2rdf.pl

12:35:54 <JibberJim> oh right, yeah. sorry missed the parseType

12:35:58 <libby> so it looks fairly simple

12:36:03 <libby> cool

12:36:35 <D[a]vey> libby: What I mean is, redefining a whole section for rdfical on what <attendee> and <organizer> can have in them, when FOAF exists, seems kinda redundant.

12:36:55 <libby> I agree

12:37:02 <libby> and it'd be better to use foaf

12:37:20 <libby> but, we are doing a stright translatoin of icalndar to rdf. anything else is extra

12:37:34 <libby> *but* it shoudl go in dovumentations and examples, and be linked to foaf via the schema

12:37:42 <libby> heh

12:37:59 <D[a]vey> you must excuse me, I'm rather like that ;)

12:38:01 <libby> basically rdfical won;t change. but you can always add stuff from diffeent namepsaces like foaf

12:38:32 <libby> and we need some good docs that show you how to do that

12:38:41 <D[a]vey> libby: yes, agreed :)

12:39:14 <libby> best practice and ewhatno. al;so geo stuff

12:40:18 <libby> I'm currently working on SWAD-Europe, and EC funded project

12:40:32 <libby> lots of outreach

12:41:04 <JibberJim> Ah, is that how you justify the IRC chatting libby?

12:41:32 <libby> it's web stuff ye4ah, a mix. all computers, some education, some research, imaging gateways etc

12:41:35 <libby> yep jim :)

12:43:00 <libby> btw, davey, there's a bug in your foaf - <foaf:workInfoHomepage rdf:resource="Web Design and PHP Developer"/> shoule be a url in there

12:43:39 <D[a]vey> ah yes, I noticed that when I stated to fill it out again... then I remembed I'd saved the data using mozilla form thing and just used that, forgot to change that :)

12:44:37 <D[a]vey> fixed my FOAF :)

12:44:57 <libby> neat :)

12:45:24 <D[a]vey> I just used the FOAFinator thing, haven't had a chance to read the FOAF spec yet

12:45:58 <D[a]vey> but I can see myself writing a XML_FOAF package for PEAR too (aswell as XML_GeoInfo if I can grasp that :)

12:46:04 <libby> :))

12:46:11 * libby -> lunch

12:46:15 <D[a]vey> enjoy :)

12:46:16 <libby> l8r...

12:46:26 <D[a]vey> for sure :)

12:48:19 <zoyd> from my foaf file how do i say that i'm attending an event by simply linking to the rdfical URI?

12:49:12 <zoyd> i saw libby's example on the list, but that contains the rdfical in itself.

12:50:06 <D[a]vey> thats a good question.

12:52:30 * zoyd goes through the channel logs looking for clues

12:58:41 <zoyd> if i'm not wrong it still does only a part of the icalendar standard.

12:59:06 <D[a]vey> you are correct, buts it *very* nice at doing what it does :)

12:59:13 <zoyd> i don't see Free/Busy stuff in there.

12:59:22 <zoyd> D[a]vey: indeed.

13:13:19 * libby will think re foaf->attendee

13:13:54 <libby> no, there's no freebusy because we have never seen any freebusy data at all in icalendar

13:16:16 <D[a]vey> libby: I think the point he raised about linking to rdfical from FOAF is valid too

13:16:27 <libby> yeah, just thinking about that

13:16:28 <D[a]vey> its cool to say "This is me, these are the people I know, this is what I'm doing..."

13:16:41 <libby> we have used <rdfs:seeAlso>

13:16:41 <libby> <ical:Vcalendar

13:16:41 <libby> rdf:about="http://ilrt.org/people/libby/calendar/exportrred20030414.rdf"/>

13:16:48 <libby> </rdfs:seeAlso>

13:17:04 <libby> but not saying explicitly anything about attending specicif events

13:17:12 <libby> it woudl eb easy to do though

13:18:37 <D[a]vey> this calendar is mad complex. heh

13:19:10 <D[a]vey> one thing I notice about ical... it requires an end time

13:19:46 <D[a]vey> or at least, Mozilla Calendar does

13:20:39 <libby> really?

13:21:00 * libby can;t remember the spec in suffient detail. it is incredibly lomg

13:21:21 <D[a]vey> well, like I say, Mozilla Calendar requires one... presumably as it needs to draw the end of the box ;)

13:23:40 <D[a]vey> is there an rdf2ical backwards converter?

13:24:54 <D[a]vey> actually, I'm gonna stick to what Mozilla Calendar supports

13:25:42 <CaptSolo> hi all :)

13:25:43 <libby> ok, how about this, re foaf and event http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/discovery/2003/09/foafcal/foafattend.rdf

13:25:47 <libby> hi capt

13:25:50 <CaptSolo> hi libby :)

13:25:59 <D[a]vey> Hello CaptSolo :)

13:26:10 <libby> there's something calld cwm, and that can do rdfical->icalendar yep

13:26:24 <CaptSolo> hi d[a]vey :)

13:26:26 <CaptSolo> what's new?

13:26:36 * CaptSolo has not been here for a while...

13:26:54 <libby> for cwm see http://www.wasab.dk/morten/2003/06/cal/action.html

13:27:39 <D[a]vey> libby: couldn't you even link something in the rdf:seeAlso to the ical:Vevent?

13:29:04 <libby> not unless the event had a uri, whichg we would tend to discourage

13:29:23 <libby> also, that gives you less information,i.e. doesnt say tat atending per se

13:30:13 <D[a]vey> no, I mean an in-document link...

13:30:33 <D[a]vey> we spoke about it briefly in #web when talking about with FOAF

13:30:34 <libby> seealso->event....?

13:30:43 <libby> can you guve an example..?

13:30:47 <D[a]vey> I'll check my logs and get back to you

13:30:55 * libby not sure why useful, but yes, you cold use nodeid for that I think

13:30:59 <libby> ok, cool

13:31:27 <maxf> hi Nikki

13:31:31 <Nikki_R> hi max

13:32:10 <D[a]vey> <contact:nearestAirport rdf:nodeID="pdx" /> <--- and then further down: <air:Airport rdf:nodeID="pdx"> ...., </air:Airport>

13:32:26 <bijan> bijan is now known as server

13:32:37 <server> server is now known as bijan

13:34:08 <D[a]vey> I can already see that rdfical is gonna be the best way to markup our timetable :)

13:34:10 <libby> yep that sounds fine to me...

13:34:12 <libby> :))

13:34:16 * libby very pleased

13:35:31 * libby must do some other work. l8r...

13:36:22 <D[a]vey> seeya :)

14:12:17 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

14:18:03 <Talliesin> hello

14:18:23 * Talliesin is still trying to remember whether typed literals ended up being tidy or untidy?

14:18:57 <Davey> hehe

14:19:02 <Davey> sorry I can't help

14:19:15 * DanCon waves from 1st of about 4 telcons today :-{

14:19:26 <dajobe> sympathy

14:19:40 <Davey> telcons?

14:21:49 * bijan tries to imagine DanCon's prior lives...musta been bad to yield 4 telcons!

14:22:19 <DanCon> teleconferences. But the concept doesn't deserve that many keystrokes

14:22:59 <bijan> Hmm, if you're into irony as well as terseness, you could shorten to "tlc"

14:23:00 <bijan> :)

14:24:39 <Talliesin> Okay, Of the things I've found saying they're tidy and they things saying they're not the former are more recent. I'm just going to go ahead and assume they are and can be used with owl:InverseFunctionalProperty and finish writing this and then look stupid when I find out they aren't tidy.

14:24:51 * Talliesin is lucky in not fearing looking stupid.

14:25:32 * mmealling wonders what the very rough estimate is for the number of documents on the web is.....

14:25:35 <DanCon> .google DontWorryBeCrappy

14:25:36 <datum> DontWorryBeCrappy: http://esw.w3.org/topic/DontWorryBeCrappy

14:25:57 <dajobe> billions and billions

14:26:16 <reagleBRKLN> related to

14:26:16 <reagleBRKLN>http://goatee.net/2002/09.html#_18we

14:26:17 <dc_rdfig> D: http://goatee.net/2002/09.html#_18we from reagleBRKLN

14:26:25 <reagleBRKLN> d:"design is like a mortgage"

14:26:30 <reagleBRKLN> D:"design is like a mortgage"

14:26:30 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D1.

14:27:58 * Talliesin is currently busy being crappy.

14:28:25 <mmealling> Business 2.0 said 800 million in '99

14:28:39 <Talliesin> Remember when there were rumours that Bobby McFerin had committed suicide - and lots of people seemed to assume it was true just because it was ironic.

14:28:47 <libby> Talliesin, it certainly used to be the case that Inversefunctionalproperties could not be used with non-resources.

14:28:58 <libby> ...but it's a good while since I looked...

14:29:33 <bijan> I believe that IFPs can't be used with literals in OWL DL (and thus lite)

14:29:40 <bijan> I belive they can be used in OWL Full

14:30:55 <mmealling> hmm... 3,307,998,701 indexed by Google... I wonder what they're what percent of the total they cover.

14:31:08 <bijan> So, in support of my first belief: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-semantics/syntax.html#2.3.2.4

14:31:42 <bijan> The syntax doesn't allow a InverseFunctional in a DatatypeProperty Axiom

14:32:16 <_joshua> mmealling: About a quarter, by their own estimates

14:32:28 <bijan> In support of the latter, since in OWL Full, a Datatype Property can be equivalentTo a ObjectProperty, I'd say all the axioms carry over, thus the DP can be IF

14:34:21 <bijan> Othere support for the former, in perhaps a more obvious form: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-semantics/rdfs.html#5.3

14:34:40 <bijan> See, "Only individual-valued properties can be inverse functional properties." :)

14:35:02 <bijan> (that's in the "Common portion" of the semantics, so reflects the strong conditions of OWL DL)

14:37:08 <Davey> Does danbri come here often?

14:37:18 <Davey> oh, he was here last night :)

14:37:48 <JibberJim> Is that a foaf:cheesyChatUpLine Davey?

14:38:01 <Davey> haha

14:38:01 <dajobe> he's in seattle at the moment

14:38:21 <Davey> well, I'd like some info on GeoInfo, and his is the only name to consistantly come up :)

14:39:41 <libby> what's up Davey? I might be able to help

14:39:57 <Davey> libby: well, I'm just trying to see how I can use it :)

14:40:31 <Davey> libby: I'd like to do 3 things, a) used it to map where the conference itself is b) map where the speakers are coming from c) map from the attendees are coming (to the nearest airports)

14:40:36 <libby> are you going to say: this event is in this place?

14:40:37 <bijan> Ok, nailed the second belief

14:40:56 <libby> ok, well (c) is fairly easy

14:41:13 <bijan> Sectopm 5.3 IOOP = P1

14:41:23 <Davey> libby: b) is using airports too, so thats just as easy

14:41:47 <libby> cool

14:42:01 <bijan> In the def of IFP, the property "c" is an element of IOOP

14:42:07 <libby> pixel write about uding nearestairport in foaf: http://www.perceive.net/pages/page/articles/year/2002/month/12

14:42:25 <bijan> And in the first table IODP is a subclass of P1

14:43:10 <libby> -although recelty we've used a different namsapec for lat/long: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/200303/geo/intro.html

14:43:25 <bijan> So, since, in owl full, IOOP == P, and IODP subclassof P, then all the DP are in IOOP and thus legal IFP

14:43:47 <Davey> libby: yeah, I'm using the FOAF for nearest airport (I can get Airport -> lat/long info)

14:43:59 <libby> (note that not all foaf the properties in those examples exist! - check on http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/ before using them

14:44:01 <libby> )

14:44:34 <libby> so for (a0 you just want oe conference location lat/long?

14:44:38 <libby> one

14:45:19 <Davey> yes

14:45:34 <libby> I'm sure there's an example somewhere

14:45:36 <libby> looking

14:46:09 <Davey> I can't see how to go from the lat/long to something... useful. Cept for the blog thing

14:48:33 <_joshua> geourl

14:48:51 <Davey> _joshua: ?

14:49:05 <_joshua> convert lat/ong to something useful.

14:49:39 <libby> how do you mean useful?

14:49:47 * Talliesin is impressed by just how much detail bijan put into being unsure about my question :)

14:50:32 * libby will have to think about events and geo davey

14:50:33 <Davey> libby: well, firstly bring up a map of the area and mark the conference on it

14:50:57 <libby> jibberjim has done a lot of svg/map/geo stuff

14:51:10 <libby> also zool, from #foaf

14:51:20 <Davey> yes, I see this... his svg map thing is *very* cool (I think thats his)

14:51:20 <_joshua> I am working on some cool stuff for plotting point annotations in space

14:51:34 <Talliesin> bijan: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-ref/#InverseFunctionalProperty-def - "NOTE: Because in OWL Full datatype properties are a subclass of object properties, an inverse-functional property can be defined for datatype properties."

14:51:37 <Talliesin> Hurrah

14:51:45 <_joshua> what map? url?

14:51:59 <bijan> Eh. Non-normative :)

14:52:04 <bijan> I stand by my derivations :)

14:52:06 <_joshua> I am doing a bunch of stuff with geodata lately

14:52:24 <libby> well done Telliesin

14:52:27 <libby> :)

14:52:42 <libby> what have you been doing _joshua?

14:53:22 <Davey> _joshua: http://jibbering.com/2002/8/foaf-people-map.svg

14:53:57 <bijan> Oh libby! No "well done" for my derivation! Sniff.

14:55:32 <Davey> this website is gonna be a job and a half.

14:55:46 <Davey> *so* much semantically rich data... I can't wait.

14:57:17 <libby> aw bijan!

14:57:33 * libby didn;t undersand the derrivation :(

14:57:34 <bijan> I see how it is

14:57:50 <libby> bijan *very* clever :)

14:57:52 <bijan> Meticulous examination of the normative specs just isn't cool

14:58:31 <Talliesin> bijan, go on have a cigarette, all the cool kids are doing it...

14:58:51 <bijan> You'll never get me to smoke that reference koolaid!

14:58:59 <libby> Davey, I would think something like this makes sense but I'm not sure (re geo and events) http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/discovery/2003/09/foafcal/foafgeo.rdf

14:59:16 <libby> but I will have to think further

14:59:35 <_joshua> why not use the location of the thing itself, not the nearest airport?

14:59:45 <Davey> libby: right, that makes markup sense... how to use the data? :)

14:59:57 <libby> maybe because noone will be abelt o find it with just nearest airport data?

15:00:49 <Davey> well, I'm will try to get someone with a GPS to go to the place we're holding it and getting *exact co-ordinates... then I'd like to put it on a street map

15:01:33 <_joshua> geourl.org/resources.html has how to find the coordinates of most things, for many countries

15:01:41 <_joshua> go to multimap or whatever, plug in the address, get the coord

15:02:09 <libby> yeah, multimap is cool

15:02:49 <_joshua> there's no reason to use location-by-association unless you wish to be deliberately vague.

15:03:14 <_joshua> and in some places it's ambiguous. I'm in manhattan, and i'm very close to three different airports. No clue which is nearest

15:03:43 <tim-in-and-out> tim-in-and-out is now known as timbl

15:03:44 <JibberJim> although indicating nearby airports may be useful for a conference...

15:04:11 <_joshua> Certainly. But that should be a web service of some sort.

15:04:27 <_joshua> given a point, tell me the nearest airports

15:05:21 <_joshua> Luckily I am working on such a generic service :)

15:05:23 * Talliesin did actually smoke koolaid once, for reasons that are now unclear.

15:10:03 <Davey> I think I can go from rdfical to icalendar format, theres nothing to say I can't output plain text

15:10:29 <Davey> + using XSLT

15:11:03 <JibberJim> you've the got the airport data yeah _joshua?

15:11:29 <Davey> Hey JibberJim :)

15:11:50 <Davey> JibberJim: am I correct in my assumption that the Jim mentioned as the creator of the SVG nearestAirport plotter is you?

15:12:14 <libby> using XSLT might be tricky if there is variation in output, but if your own data, shoudl be fine davey

15:12:24 <JibberJim> Although you run into problems with sea and countries etc. Is Malmo a nearest airport to parts of Copenhagen?

15:12:30 <JibberJim> Yes Davey, that's me.

15:12:49 <Davey> JibberJim: aah, then I'd like to talk to you :)

15:13:41 <Davey> JibberJim: whats involved in plotting those places on the map?

15:14:01 <Davey> does the map have to be of a certain format/size? do you use serverside scripting?

15:14:21 <JibberJim> It only plots on world maps Davey.

15:14:33 <Davey> yes, thats what I'm planning on doing :)

15:14:39 <Davey> is it possible/easy to do it on a raster map? (I don't want to require the SVG plugin)

15:14:48 <Davey> (well, one of things I'm planning :)

15:15:45 <JibberJim> well it's all client-side RDF parsing, erm not really rasteriseable in that code, talk to _joshua if you want geo to raster, he's got more than me I'm sure.

15:16:01 <Davey> JibberJim: well, thank you :)

15:16:44 <JibberJim> but yes you could do it through SVG and into the raster, doing it without SVG would be probably easier, I imagine PHP has imagemagick interfaces.

15:17:42 <_joshua> Davey: plotting points on a map is easy

15:17:48 <_joshua> see http://geourl.org/; the code is very simple

15:18:10 <_joshua> davey doesn't seem to believe I know what I am talking about

15:18:17 <Davey> I never said that!

15:18:23 <Davey> I'm checking out geourl.org now :)

15:18:55 <Davey> is geourl.org yours _joshua?

15:19:11 <_joshua> Yes

15:19:30 <Davey> ok, so how have you done it?

15:19:38 <Davey> I assume its all about math and such?

15:20:09 <JibberJim> just get a map in the same projection as your co-ords then all it is is scaling.

15:20:22 <Davey> same projection? :/

15:20:28 <Davey> as in... same place in the center of the map?

15:22:09 <Davey> _joshua: do you have any resources on generic plot marking? (nothing at boy scouts prepared me for this!!)

15:22:34 <_joshua> It is easy

15:22:49 <_joshua> the pixels are 1 lat by 1 lon

15:22:53 <_joshua> Scaled, of course

15:22:59 <Davey> well, I'm a peon, I failed geography ;)

15:23:01 <_joshua> notice that the map is twice as wide as it is tall?

15:23:14 <_joshua> it is 360 across and 180 up and down

15:23:15 <Davey> _joshua: now that you mention it, yes

15:23:19 <_joshua> Right

15:23:22 <_joshua> Cause it's a planar projection

15:23:39 <Davey> aaah, so I need to keep to a 36:18 ratio?

15:23:49 <_joshua> 2:1

15:23:57 <Davey> I knew that was gonna break down more ;)

15:24:06 <Davey> just too tired to get that far. LOL

15:24:28 <_joshua> Sorry, unprojected

15:24:30 <_joshua> look at http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/mapproj/mapproj.html

15:24:35 <_joshua>http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/mapproj/gif/unproj.gif

15:24:35 <dc_rdfig> E: http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/mapproj/gif/unproj.gif from _joshua

15:25:35 <Davey> _joshua: ok, so I've go to plot using those degrees on that latter url?

15:26:24 <Davey> now... ok, I think I have this... now to find a nice world map

15:26:41 <zoyd> Davey: anything interesting on howto link to a rdfical event from foaf?

15:26:56 <Davey> zoyd: libby came up with something, hold up

15:27:14 <libby> here: http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/discovery/2003/09/foafcal/foaficaleg.rdf

15:27:20 <libby> oops no

15:27:32 <zoyd> http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/discovery/2003/09/foafcal/foafattend.rdf?

15:27:47 <Davey> yeah, you got it :)

15:27:48 <libby> here: http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/discovery/2003/09/foafcal/foafattend.rdf

15:27:54 <libby> yeah

15:27:55 <libby> hehehe

15:27:57 <Davey> Heh, wb libby ;)

15:28:02 <_joshua> davey: google for "nasa blue marble"

15:28:09 <Davey> _joshua: ok, thanks :)

15:28:19 <zoyd> but what if the event homepage has it's own rdfical?

15:28:44 <libby> I think zoyd, taht if you can smush on foaf:homepage, then you dont need to say everything about the event like time etc

15:29:09 <libby> you could just say <ical:Vevent>

15:29:09 <libby> <ical:attendee rdf:nodeID="me"/>

15:29:09 <libby> <foaf:homepage rdf:resource="http://www2004.org"/></ical:Vevent>

15:30:04 <zoyd> libby: i would want to put something like: you can meet me here: Monthly PLUG Meeting; dated: <whatever>

15:30:46 <libby> dated meaning what?

15:31:40 <zoyd> can there be a rdfs:seeAlso pointing to the events rdfical ... ical:uid to point to the specific event in it .. and ical:summary for readability?

15:32:23 <libby> zoyd, might be worth emailing www-rf-calendar @ w3.org with these examples..

15:32:30 <zoyd> dated: the meetings date(grabed from the event's rdfical).

15:34:05 <libby> the thing about seealso is that it's very generic. yeah you could add that in too I giess

15:34:07 <zoyd> in foafattend.rdf the date of the event could change. in that case your foaf file would have an older date.

15:34:45 <libby> right. better to point. but implicitly you are pointing using foaf:homepage, asthat's an inverseFunctionalProperty

15:34:57 <zoyd> so, the date and venue should be got from the rdfical produced by www2004.

15:35:30 <libby> probably. makes it less readable though

15:35:40 <libby> only works when aggregated and smushed

15:36:12 <libby> I'm not sure about uid. it makes intuitive sense

15:37:44 <Davey> _joshua: I think I'd rather go with like, an outline of the earth, rather than the real image, its a lot less cluttered, the website will be very simple :)

15:38:37 <_joshua> Lots of those around too

15:38:48 <Davey> yeah, just gotta find one :/

15:39:01 <zoyd> <ical:Vevent>

15:39:02 <zoyd> <rdfs:seeAlso rdf:resource="http://www2004.org/calendar/events.rdf"/>

15:39:02 <zoyd> <ical:uid>9a610655c6a8437d62b02cf24e0381837b873761</ical:uid>

15:39:02 <zoyd> <ical:summary>www2004</ical:summary>

15:39:05 <zoyd> </ical:Vevent>

15:40:04 <Davey> rdfs?

15:40:15 <libby> <ical:attendee rdf:nodeID="me"/>?

15:40:36 <libby> rdfs is rdf schema

15:40:45 <libby> seealso happens to be in that namespace

15:41:32 <zoyd> libby: a ical:date could be included but seeAlso gets a preference.

15:41:50 <libby> I would also like to see foaf:homepage included

15:42:06 <libby> but...that might not be event specific enough for some purposes, so uid makes sense

15:42:23 <zoyd> yeah, just like your example .. but with a seeAlso(if available).

15:43:11 <libby> I *think* that makes sense

15:43:24 * libby woudl like a sanity-check to the rdf calendar list

15:43:32 <libby> are you on the list zoyd?

15:43:42 <zoyd> libby: yes.

15:44:12 <danbri> brief comment re foaf:homepage on an Event, implying it is an 'Agent'.

15:44:15 <Davey> libby: ah yes, I've come across that :)

15:44:22 <libby> fancy sending a proposal to it?

15:44:33 <zoyd> <ical:Vevent>

15:44:33 <zoyd> <rdfs:seeAlso rdf:resource="http://www2004.org/calendar/events.rdf"/>

15:44:33 <zoyd> <ical:uid>9a610655c6a8437d62b02cf24e0381837b873761</ical:uid>

15:44:33 <zoyd> <ical:summary>www2004</ical:summary>

15:44:33 <zoyd> <ical:url rdf:resource="http://www2004.org"/>

15:44:35 <zoyd> <ical:dtstart rdf:parseType='Resource'>

15:44:38 <zoyd> <ical:date>2004-05-17</ical:date>

15:44:40 <zoyd> </ical:dtstart>

15:44:43 <zoyd> <ical:dtend rdf:parseType='Resource'>

15:44:46 <zoyd> <ical:date>2004-05-23</ical:date>

15:44:48 <zoyd> </ical:dtend>

15:44:51 <zoyd> </ical:Vevent>

15:44:53 <danbri> 'Agent' is currently super loose, basically something that causes change. Which events do. But agree it isn't ideal. Will have a think.

15:44:53 <zoyd> .. seems fine to me.

15:45:00 <danbri> (sorry to interupt)

15:45:08 <libby> no, thanks danbri, useful

15:45:17 <zoyd> if a seeAlso is found everything except ical:uid is ignored.

15:46:10 <libby> hm, well, you can;t give it that sort of sematics in RDF, though it is a good point about autoritativeness of data

15:46:26 <libby> you could of course make your app do that, or we could think about making it best practice

15:47:38 <_joshua> hey danbri: url to the less-complex rdf stuff you mentioned?

15:47:40 <libby> again, that's probably a q for www-rdf-calendar

15:48:31 <_joshua> Davey: http://www.vterrain.org/Imagery/whole_earth.html

15:48:47 <zoyd> libby: i'm not on the www-rdf-calendar list, though .. only the rdfweb-dev one.

15:49:00 <Davey> why thank you _joshua :)

15:49:10 <libby> ah ok, well send it there, and then I can send it to www-rdf-calendar by linking

15:49:23 <libby> that ok zoyd?

15:49:52 <zoyd> ok

15:50:05 <libby> thanks :)

15:50:11 * zoyd is off to dinner

15:50:17 <libby> bye

15:55:43 <danbri> joshua, SpotOfDrama in esw wiki

16:07:42 <_joshua> freaky, i never realized that about soap

16:25:12 <DanCon> .google SpotOfDrama

16:25:14 <datum> SpotOfDrama: http://esw.w3.org/topic/SpotOfDrama

16:25:18 <DanCon> :)

16:25:52 * DanCon wonders if there's any particular focus or priority to #rdfig this week... any wednesday events?

16:26:24 * JibberJim would like another Image wednesday chat to get some motivation on finishing some actions from the last one.

16:26:33 <libby> yeah

16:27:01 <dajobe> isn't there a cal one soon?

16:27:19 <DanCon> RdfCalendar has slipped into the someday pile; there's no next event scheduled.

16:27:19 <libby> no, no mre cal ones for now

16:27:24 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

16:27:40 <DanCon> DanCon is now known as DanC

16:27:44 * libby has a bunch of actions from the final one, mostly to do with documentation

16:28:17 * DanC ponders the utility of an action item with no next meeting scheduled

16:28:48 <libby> well, it's stuff I wanted to do anyway

16:31:00 <DanC> hmm... "authority" component in URIs...

16:31:15 <DanC> LMM's right to point that out as a goofiness in the arch doc...

16:31:43 <DanC> it's come up in sw-meaning too... "the owner of a URI" is not well-defined, in the general case.

16:32:16 <DanC> news:comp.text.xml has no owner

16:32:44 <DanC> but there's consensus in the Internet community about how it's allocated.

16:33:23 <DanC> administrative hierarchy is one pattern of allocation, but far from the only one

16:35:07 * DanC wonders if the official registry and specs make the connection between the news: URI schema and the USENET newsgroup creation protocol...

16:36:30 <DanC> IANA registry cites RFC 1738...

16:37:09 <DanC> " The news URL scheme is used to refer to either news groups or individual articles of USENET news, as specified in RFC 1036." -- http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/rfc/rfc1738.html

16:38:59 <DanC> "Newsgroups specified must all be the names of existing newsgroups, as no new newsgroups will be created by simply posting to them." -- RFC1036 . hmm... what does "existing" mean there?

16:41:09 <DanC> hmm... USENET is somewhat fractal... only the "big 8" have a homogeneous policy.

16:42:54 <bijan> DanC: Was there a prior message from Tim that yoru rdfms-assertion issue was intended to express?

16:43:12 <DanC> prior to what?

16:43:13 <bijan> Or that can be seen as an input to that?

16:43:20 <bijan> To your raising of the issue

16:43:28 * bijan trying to get the history straight

16:43:28 <DanC> don't think so

16:43:59 <bijan> Hmm. Ok, I've always thought of this as "Tim's issue" but, well, I'm totally wrong :)

16:44:08 <bijan> mea culpa and mes apologies

16:45:12 <DanC> the formal genesis of the issue was my comments at the 2001 tech plenary

16:45:27 <DanC> of course, timbl and I talked about various related things prior to that

16:46:23 <bijan> Do you happen to have an idea where tim first put in direct input?

16:46:42 <bijan> I'm trying to figure out how we ended up with the various issue, issue texts, and proposed resolutions

16:47:44 * bijan should sic an undergrad on it

16:47:54 <DanC> hmm... first input from timbl on the issue that I saw was probably his 1994 WWW1 talk

16:48:06 <bijan> Heh.

16:48:14 <bijan> Ok, that's *2* undergrads

16:48:20 <bijan> I meant in this current arc :)

16:48:23 <bijan> So post your raising

16:49:47 <DanC> "Metadata can be regarded as a set of assertions, each assertion being about a resource (A u1 ...)" -- timbl, Jan 1997 http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Metadata.html

16:50:12 * DanC is trying to get a handle on what bijan considers "current"

16:50:29 <bijan> I mean, from your issue raising until now

16:50:42 <bijan> Thu, 08 Mar 2001 - today

16:51:22 * DanC recalls timbl chiming in on w3c-rdfcore-wg at one point...

16:51:55 <DanC> e.g. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002May/0126.html

16:53:06 <bijan> Ohhhhhh

16:53:17 <bijan> Well, that explains the closure=pt stuff

16:55:08 * DanC notes wishful thinking such as "Note that RDF specs are referred to by XML specs (via the namespace)"

16:55:20 <bijan> yep

16:55:44 * bijan despairs

16:57:04 * DanC disaparates

16:57:11 <DanC> ;-)

17:09:17 <jllkifsh> jllkifsh is now known as jllykifsh

17:30:38 <timbl> What explains waht closure=pt stuff?

17:31:30 <DanC> your msg to w3c-rdfcore-wg http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002May/0126.html

17:31:31 <timbl> DanC,, what do you think Bijan meant by that "closure=pt stuff?"

17:31:52 <DanC> I think he meant the closure=pt command-line syntax of cwm

17:33:55 <timbl> Ah, so he is saying that the cwm code was written because of the RDF core mail.

17:34:25 <bijan> Not at all.

17:34:43 <bijan> I'm saying that the text in the RDF Core mail makes it clearer to me what the closure=pt stuff means

17:34:57 <bijan> Which wasn't clear from your sw-meaning email (to me)

17:35:00 <bijan> And I could be wrong

17:35:23 <bijan> I have no idea about your intellectual autobiography and what led to the genesis of closure=pt

17:35:25 <timbl> Oh.. that has to be good, if stg is clearer.

17:35:49 <timbl> The sw-meaning mail didn't make sense.

17:35:54 <timbl> to you.

17:36:13 * bijan replying

17:36:19 <bijan> But in meeting at the mometn

17:36:33 <timbl> What wasn't clear-- what cwm --closure=pt does, or why it does it, or what the use of it is?

17:37:30 <bijan> Clearly, "But in meeting at the moment" wasn't clear :)

17:38:15 * timbl leaves Bijan to his meeting.

17:48:29 <danbri> anyone interesting in scribing from dublin core conf?

17:49:14 <danbri> Jane Greenberg -- Chapel Hill N Carolina

17:49:41 <danbri> (info about programme)

17:49:52 <maxf> you're very interesting in scribing, danbri ;)

17:50:08 <danbri> 6 paper sessions a-f (and other details not interesting to non attendees)

17:50:18 * danbri better keep doing it then

17:51:40 <danbri> new dev't: special sessions, less formal than papers

17:51:54 <danbri> encourged to ask Qs of presenteres

17:52:10 <danbri> 12 posters in lobby + short paper in the proceedings

17:52:18 <danbri> (which are online via dublincore.org (in pdf))

17:53:50 <danbri> Makx Deckers -- exec director of DCMI

17:53:58 <danbri> ...on goals for workshop part of the week

17:54:18 <danbri> 11th dc meeting

17:54:29 <danbri> s/deckers/dekkers/

17:54:36 <danbri> 3rd DC _conference_ (prev were 'workshops' only)

17:55:03 <danbri> who we are, what we try to achieve?

17:55:13 <danbri> international...

17:55:30 <danbri> in general, more than 1500 participants from more than 1000 orgs, > 50 countries around world.

17:55:49 <D[a]vey> Hey danbri :)

17:55:59 <danbri> hi

17:56:05 * danbri note taking from dublin core conf

17:56:08 <danbri> makx:

17:56:16 <danbri> Open... DC invites everyone to participate...

17:56:45 <danbri> ...implementation experience, research issues shared, not just by speakers, but all participants in w/shop and special sessions; 2-way...

17:57:08 <danbri> ...also meeting place for metadata community, idea exchange

17:57:19 <D[a]vey> danbri: I notice you're quite active with the GeoInfo stuffs...

17:57:19 <DanC> BLURB: Dublin Core conference

17:57:19 <dc_rdfig> F: Dublin Core conference from DanC

17:57:25 <DanC> logger, pointer?

17:57:26 <DanC> See http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2003-09-29#T17-57-25

17:57:36 <danbri> ...adoption earlier this year of DC element set as an ISO standard

17:57:45 <DanC> F:see [http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2003-09-29#T17-57-25|log] of danbri's notes etc.

17:57:45 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F1.

17:57:46 <danbri> ...group has achieved a fully internationally recognised std

17:57:51 * danbri thanks danc

17:58:16 <danbri> makx introduces himself as 'the guy in the suit with the nice tie'

17:58:21 <danbri> (much laughing)

17:58:34 <DanC> F:see also [http://dc2003.ischool.washington.edu/|DC-2003 Homepage]

17:58:34 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F2.

17:59:08 <DanC> F:Seattle, Washington, USA. 28Sep-2Oct 2003

17:59:09 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F3.

17:59:11 <danbri> Advisory, Usage board, steering ctteee etc stand up

17:59:47 <danbri> re-introduces Stu Weibel, founding father of DC

17:59:59 <DanC> D:|design is like a mortgage

17:59:59 <dc_rdfig> Titled item D.

18:00:19 * DanC persues his quest to stamp out in-your-face URL

18:00:19 <danbri> (stu takes photo of audience and v-versa)

18:00:39 <DanC> E:Unprojected lat/long

18:00:39 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E1.

18:00:45 <DanC> E:|Unprojected lat/long

18:00:45 <dc_rdfig> Titled item E.

18:00:54 <DanC> E:Peter H. Dana 9/20/94

18:00:55 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E2.

18:01:36 <D[a]vey> danbri: do you have any suggestions as to where to get the lat/long for places?

18:01:48 <danbri> not offhand, sorry

18:01:51 <DanC> C:|20030115mtg.rdf

18:01:51 <dc_rdfig> Titled item C.

18:02:07 <DanC> D[a]vey, have you reviewed GeoInfo?

18:02:10 <DanC> .google GeoInfo

18:02:12 <datum> GeoInfo: http://esw.w3.org/topic/GeoInfo

18:02:16 <D[a]vey> yes, I have

18:02:21 <D[a]vey> this is why I want lat/long info ;)

18:02:23 <DanC> what are you after?

18:02:45 <danbri> Michael Eisenberg ---

18:02:49 <D[a]vey> well, I'm going to be using it in my conference website, wanted to get the exact lat/long of some places within the city

18:02:50 <danbri> (sp.?)

18:03:05 <danbri> ...welcomes to dc2004 on behalf of info school, uni washington

18:03:39 <DanC> "using it" it=???

18:03:46 * danbri doesn't scribe everything

18:03:51 <DanC> which conference? which city?

18:04:14 <D[a]vey> DanC: PHP and Web Standards (PaWS) UK 2004, Manchester UK

18:05:22 <DanC> hmm... I can't think of any sources of lat/long data for places inside Machester, but let's see...

18:05:29 <DanC> relevant questions include "Any other RDF data about places?"

18:06:33 <danbri> geourl.org has rdf for place->documents

18:06:51 <DanC> perhaps "UK waypoints (over 5000 waypoints for download)"

18:06:59 <DanC> under "Are there sources of data out there that I might mine for geographic data?"

18:07:04 <D[a]vey> wow, lol

18:07:16 <ndw> DanC, I found that multimap.com would give geodata for some landmarks; train stations and the like

18:07:52 <danbri> michael e: ...programmes re putting info to work for people; info at centre of world...

18:08:34 <danbri> Plenary Speaker: Mary Lee Kennedy, Director of the Knowledge Network Group, Microsoft

18:09:04 <danbri> (intro from michael: keeper of taxonomies, also MS Web and MS library...)

18:09:21 <DanC> pls ask michael@MS to keep his web pages still

18:09:54 <danbri> dc_rdfig:view

18:09:55 <dc_rdfig> B: RSS 2.0 Specification (http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss#requiredChannelElements)

18:09:56 <dc_rdfig> C: 20030115mtg.rdf (http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/test/20030115mtg.rdf)

18:09:57 <dc_rdfig> D: design is like a mortgage (http://goatee.net/2002/09.html#_18we)

18:09:58 <dc_rdfig> E: Unprojected lat/long (http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/mapproj/gif/unproj.gif)

18:09:59 <dc_rdfig> F: Dublin Core conference (blurb)

18:10:00 <D[a]vey> ah yes, danbri, am I correct in thinking the lat/long in GeoInfo is decimal, and not minutes?

18:10:25 <danbri> davey, there is a namespace that uses wgs_84 scales, which yep are decimal

18:10:48 <danbri> F:speakers include [http://dc2003.ischool.washington.edu/speakers.html#kennedy Mary Lee Kennedy]

18:10:48 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F4.

18:10:50 <DanC> ... e.g. "Internet Client SDK", December 19, 1997, Microsoft Corporation which used to be at http://www.microsoft.com/msdn/sdk/inetsdk/help/ , cited from http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-xh#References

18:11:38 <D[a]vey> thanks danbri :)

18:11:59 <danbri> Mary Lee Kennedy: "Meeting Employee Needs through an Enterprise Information Architecture"

18:12:31 <danbri> ...daunting meeting people doing worldwide standards. my focus has been on what we've been doing within MS

18:12:48 <danbri> ...demos tommorrow (conf dinner c/o ms)

18:13:17 <danbri> ...commitments: "how MS employee info needs are being met by taxonomy and other enterprise info arch"

18:13:28 <danbri> ...Exchange "architecture"

18:13:45 <danbri> (layered info systems slide; resources and people at bottoem, ui at top)

18:14:03 <danbri> topics: the Knowledge Network Group's purpose

18:14:10 <danbri> ...meeting employee requirements

18:14:16 <DanC> F4:speakers include [http://dc2003.ischool.washington.edu/speakers.html#kennedy|Mary Lee Kennedy]

18:14:16 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment F4.

18:14:35 <danbri> ....connecting employees with info and people they need to successfully do their jobs

18:14:45 <danbri> ...work alongside groups building sol'ns w/ MS tech

18:14:59 <danbri> ...looking at business needs from the business rather than tech perspective

18:15:17 <danbri> ...2 years ago, started big project to u/stand how we would connect all the islands of info at MS together

18:15:22 <danbri> ...focus groups etc

18:15:30 <danbri> ...six criteria for info excellence:

18:15:39 <danbri> - find right quantity and quality of info to help do job

18:15:50 <danbri> - determine relevance via sufficient context

18:15:55 <danbri> - trust authority of content

18:16:10 <danbri> - find out who else has knowledge, what they know, engage in dialog

18:16:25 <danbri> - find same info, knowledge, people from any starting pt in the info system (portal, team site, app, store)

18:16:38 <danbri> - learn about new resources relevant to them as become available

18:16:52 * danbri hopes slides will be published, can't keep this up and listen at same time

18:17:48 <danbri> ..."people want to know what they don't know"

18:18:21 <danbri> ...focus area: organizing the intranet, finding the 'right' info; finding people and what they know

18:18:44 <danbri> ...'right' meaning various things to various people

18:18:55 <danbri> ...intranet

18:19:15 <danbri> ...worked closely w/ sharepoint ??? product team

18:19:32 <danbri> ...platform arch that connects indiv w/space, team sites, portal

18:19:49 <danbri> ...set of shared services developed, providing for consistent experience

18:20:22 <danbri> MS Intranet 1 year ago: disconnected island of team sites, portals, file shares, databases

18:20:28 <danbri> ..1000s of them!

18:20:35 <danbri> ...anyone could set up anything

18:21:09 <danbri> ...my team delivers search, taxonomy etc... had 8-15 portals sharing a common set of shared services (taxonomy, search)

18:21:20 <danbri> ...interest, but 1:1 relations made this hard work

18:21:39 <danbri> ...today, just launched platform 2 months ago, there is an obivious rel'n to our e/prise portal (MS Web)

18:21:53 <danbri> ...expandded our reach autoamtically

18:22:08 <danbri> ...in one year made huge progress

18:22:15 <danbri> ..."smart connecteed workspaces"

18:22:25 <danbri> ...connects people, teams, topics, divisions

18:22:38 <danbri> ...low cost for associating myself with it

18:22:45 <danbri> ...and free services improve user experince

18:23:16 <danbri> ...info lifecycle: how long to keep content on the site

18:23:22 <danbri> ...how to archive, etc

18:23:25 <danbri> ...site registriation and directory

18:23:29 <danbri> ...organizational browser

18:23:43 <danbri> ...we were suprised by the amount of traction this got

18:24:36 <danbri> ...when sites register, we ask for info like 'intended audience','coverage','lifecycle','language...'

18:24:44 <danbri> ...(pictures, screenshots)

18:25:25 <danbri> (looks portally)

18:26:06 <danbri> shows site registry, organised by Division, Region, Subject, Product, Audience, Community.

18:26:27 <danbri> (last one interesting: Social Communities; Microsoft Blogs being its subheadings)

18:26:35 <danbri> ...we added Communities one lately, as a lot of community effort in the ocmpany but wasn't easily accessible

18:29:11 <danbri> ...for each site in each heading, get description of title, desc, subject etc.

18:29:11 <danbri> ...we had long converstaion re whether or not to expose info about sites that someone doesn't have acccess to

18:29:11 <danbri> ...pos we took was that employees who seach msweb felt that we weren't covering everything, since partial-view sites weren't obviously listed

18:29:13 <danbri> ...so now we make them visible, at a metadata level

18:29:15 <danbri> ...intranet in terms of strategic business of the company

18:29:19 <danbri> ...to help folk u/stand focus of the company

18:29:21 <danbri> ..."browse the org"

18:29:23 <danbri> ...pictorial view, w/ billg at top, etc

18:29:27 <danbri> ...seven business divisions, and browse below those

18:30:29 <danbri> ...peer organisations, sub-organisations, external websites, internal web sites

18:30:29 <danbri> ...for each incl billg (who has no peer orgs)

18:30:29 <danbri> ...certain amount of manual work, looking to automate more

18:31:39 <danbri> ...this browse-the-org thing v popular within the company, gives good overview

18:31:39 <danbri> ...big win re bringing content together

18:31:39 <danbri> (moving on)

18:31:39 <danbri> ...finding the 'right' info

18:31:42 <danbri> ...info retrieval; info authoritativeness; info excellence practices.

18:31:46 <danbri> ...note that not just content but also behavioural aspect

18:32:12 <danbri> ...Info excellence practices

18:32:23 <danbri> ...major issue at MS. Everybody is a designer.

18:33:25 <danbri> ...don't want to stifle innovation

18:33:25 <danbri> ...certain low-cost changes that we ask of team and portal sites

18:33:25 * danbri grins re w3c site

18:33:56 <danbri> ...when you have a hyperlink to something you have an explanation of what you're linking to

18:33:56 <danbri> ...that search box goes in same place

18:33:56 <danbri> ...you provide a link back to parent site

18:33:56 <danbri> ...that you use a footer element

18:34:12 <danbri> ...also branding elements, graphics, fonts and "of course accessibility"

18:34:15 <danbri> :)

18:34:32 <D[a]vey> good lord.

18:34:57 <danbri> ...we really needed to change the info-seeking env at MS

18:35:09 <danbri> ...has been amazing relationship

18:35:16 <danbri> (with which group? missed)

18:35:29 <danbri> ...ah, sharepoint 2003

18:35:43 <danbri> ...luxury of influencing product

18:36:17 <danbri> ...eg search bar, can search contextually

18:36:24 <danbri> ...also need to be able to search for people

18:36:47 <danbri> ...ability to search for Mary Lee Kennedy as people

18:36:55 <danbri> also "star" rating re authoritativeness, where content tagged

18:37:17 <danbri> ...'cos of data that the portal sites have in reg form we have basic info, also 'last updated' etc., -> better sense of relevance

18:37:27 <danbri> ...what it doesn't do yet is whether relevant to you _in your role_

18:37:37 <danbri> ...in advanced search leveraged schema work we did on sites, docs

18:38:02 <danbri> ...so i can search on authorname, keywods etc

18:38:05 <danbri> ...anoter area we wanted to adress, worked on topics

18:38:23 <danbri> ...my group working on notion of knowleddge centres

18:38:36 <danbri> ...area of 'topics' in msweb... eg for us "What is the business of Microsoft"

18:38:48 <danbri> ...to get back for the 'why does this matter in the company"

18:38:52 <danbri> ...role as employees advocate

18:39:21 <danbri> ...but also (as in many orgs) if it doesn't address business needs, it is unlikely to get funded/supported

18:39:31 <danbri> ...our b.need is u/standing the strategic business of ms

18:39:39 <danbri> ...who doing what, plans etc

18:40:23 <danbri> (danbri aside, see http://www.netcrucible.com/blog/ for list of MS blogges in RDF/XML FOAF)

18:40:30 <danbri> ...glossary lookup

18:40:45 <danbri> ......we share a vocab management tool w/ ms.com folk

18:40:53 <danbri> ...coordinates internal/external view

18:41:29 <danbri> glossary... has relationships amongst terms

18:41:54 <danbri> ...acronyms etc.; difficult for indivudlas to keep up

18:42:09 <danbri> ...we have a tool called microspeak to learn the lang of the company!

18:42:17 <danbri> ...how to deal with this...

18:42:41 <danbri> ...this was a huge success in the company, suprised at its impact

18:42:45 <danbri> (moving on)

18:42:54 <danbri> ...finding people and what they know

18:43:14 <danbri> ...capturing 'people' info; people info retrieval; info excellence practices, taxo management.

18:43:17 <danbri> ...we do have a people schema, and vocab w.r.t. role, region of work etc.

18:43:33 <danbri> ...also auto capture basic stuff from active directory (name, tel no etc)

18:43:35 <danbri> ....we have gone a step further in our effort

18:43:40 <danbri> ...front page ms web

18:43:56 <danbri> ...and all pages, can search for people

18:43:56 <danbri> ...peoplefinder

18:44:41 <danbri> ...get a page about each person

18:45:12 <danbri> ...recent docs, profile, photo, ...

18:45:12 <danbri> ...interests

18:45:12 <danbri> ...reports to, direct reports

18:45:53 <danbri> ...workspaces, shared links

18:48:34 <danbri> ...

18:48:34 <danbri> ...can have a private space, have webparts (weather, newsfeeds etc.)

18:48:34 * danbri wonders if cdf, rss* etc

18:48:52 <danbri> ...->

18:48:58 <danbri> ...Enterprise Architecture Foundation

18:49:17 <danbri> ...tech platform, hosting. chose to partner w/ our own IT and product folk

18:49:36 <danbri> ...taxonomy has been key

18:49:51 * danbri thinks will stop after this one anyway

18:50:00 <danbri> ...taxonomy management

18:50:07 <danbri> ...coord via a Taxonomy Board

18:51:17 <danbri> ...mission to esetablish and maintain a Microsoft internal corporate wide taxonomic structure that creates the best foundation for effective content nav and retrieval

18:52:20 <danbri> ...content management: we didn't take a really strong pos'n on how to do this, beyond strategies for tagging, outdated content

18:52:29 <danbri> ...needed light touch for this to be adopted

18:52:37 <danbri> ...big challenge not to ask too much from users

18:53:27 <danbri> (...)

18:55:03 <danbri> ...big challenges:

18:55:21 <danbri> ...much info. and expectation that it is managed, both for productivity and regulatory reasons

18:55:36 <danbri> ...putting content in context, and dyn adjusting it based on changing contexts

18:55:46 <danbri> ...automation (categorizers, extractors, classifiers etc.)

18:55:48 <danbri> ...standards

18:55:54 <danbri> ...content integration (int and ext)

18:57:12 <danbri> (ends).

18:57:13 <danbri> -----

20:15:24 <ChrisDodo> who's up for some stupid event/ical RDF questions?

20:20:07 * DanC wonders if said questions would be more interesting than the telcon he's in

20:20:27 * DanC notes that it's almost always better to just ask the question than to ask whether a question should be asked

20:20:55 <ChrisDodo> true.

20:20:57 <ChrisDodo> ok.

20:22:18 <ChrisDodo> looking at all libby's stuff about ical in rdf, the ical: bit is put inside the foaf:topic. any reason for this? could it just go inside an rss item?

20:22:32 <ChrisDodo>http://planb.nicecupoftea.org/archives/000072.html

20:22:32 <dc_rdfig> G: http://planb.nicecupoftea.org/archives/000072.html from ChrisDodo

20:23:10 <ChrisDodo> and for bonus points, ways of including an event in XML::RSS.

20:45:29 <ChrisDodo> right, added rss event info to http://www.undergroundlondon.com/art/london.rss . Does it look right?

20:45:47 <ChrisDodo> (now to work out how to add ical info (probably a rewrite))

20:48:07 <ronwalf> argh

20:48:38 <ronwalf> Ok, given a generic web based rdf browser, how does one link to the view of a bnode?

20:49:33 <danbri> via a property/value pair?

20:49:51 <danbri> (property name might be explicit, semi explicit or hardcoded)

20:49:57 <danbri> eg mbox=mailto:foo

20:50:03 <ronwalf> That may describe multiple bnodes

20:50:04 <danbri> vs ?node=mailto:foo

20:50:13 <danbri> use a property that is uniquerly ID-ing

20:50:22 <ronwalf> We have the case that it has an inverse functional property down pat

20:50:36 <ronwalf> So just search for one?

20:50:40 <danbri> that's pretty much it

20:50:48 <ronwalf> That's kinda expensive and not reliable

20:50:52 <danbri> TAP has a more heuristicky approach

20:50:57 <danbri> allowing combi of properties

20:51:18 <danbri> eg. I am the only person called "Dan Brickley" with a workplaceHomepage of http://www.w3.org/

20:51:36 <danbri> (which seems more expensive and less reliable, to me)

20:52:08 <mmealling> heuristicky?

20:53:14 <danbri> nothing in the vocab for foaf:name or foaf:workplaceHomepage stops w3c hiring a 2nd 'Dan Brickley', so you don't get the vocab-backed guarantee that there is at most one referent for this expression.

20:53:44 <danbri> (mbox=mailto:danbri@w3.org by contrast guarntees 0 or 1 referent)

20:55:28 <ronwalf> Well, the reliable way, then, is to encode all the properties in the url :)

20:57:58 <ndw> gaurantees 0 or 1 referent at any given instant in time

20:58:22 <danbri> (pete from ukoln is presenting cores schema tools, credits dave and damian)

20:58:34 <danbri> damian as 'a friend of ilrt' :)

20:58:41 <danbri> at any instant -- quite

20:58:56 <danbri> ...foaf provides a stronger guarantee that the OWL spec is capable of expressing formally

21:01:22 <DanC>http://sdg.lcs.mit.edu/alloy/

21:01:22 <dc_rdfig> H: http://sdg.lcs.mit.edu/alloy/ from DanC

21:01:29 <DanC> H:Alloy

21:01:29 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H1.

21:02:32 <DanC> H:found via [http://conveyor.com/RESTwiki/moin.cgi/ResourceModel|ResourceModel] in the RESTwiki, thanks to [http://conveyor.com/RESTwiki/moin.cgi/WaldenMathews|Walden Mathews]

21:02:33 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H2.

21:02:52 <DanC> H:might be just what I need now that the larch tools are rotting

21:02:52 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H3.

21:03:32 <DanC> H3:might be just what I need now that [http://www.w3.org/XML/9711theory/#about-larch|my larch tools] are rotting

21:03:32 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment H3.

21:06:21 <DanC> H:|Alloy

21:06:21 <dc_rdfig> Titled item H.

21:08:03 <DanC> G:|Plan B: RDF icalendar work

21:08:04 <dc_rdfig> Titled item G.

21:08:14 <DanC> dc_rdfig, remind folks to title their chumpings, ok?

21:08:14 <dc_rdfig> Not understood: remind folks to title their chumpings, ok?

21:08:48 <DanC> H:21 Sep 2003 by libby

21:08:48 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H4.

21:08:59 * mmealling wishes he could get his wikibot as reliable as chump is here... mine keeps loosing the connection to the server after a period of inactivity

21:26:51 <MorbusIff> MorbusIff is now known as Morbus

21:37:21 <libby> hi chrisdodo...re rss and foaf:topic, I think the idea was that an event should not be confused with its html page

21:37:37 * libby will try to dig out the reference

21:38:16 <danbri> libby, has anyone done religious holidays calendar -> RDF?

21:38:19 <ChrisDodo> trackback doesn't have to be an html page, just a uri

21:38:33 <danbri> and if so, made any extra use of rdf stuff, foaf etc? or just a raw conversion...?

21:39:54 <libby> I don;t know danbri...maybe chaals did something?

21:40:02 <libby> I'm sure there are some to convert from ical

21:40:04 <danbri> hmm yeah, sounds familar

21:40:22 <danbri> he often talks about data/time issues and non-western calendars

21:40:29 * libby wonders if the chatlogs being robot-protected means they are not in google

21:40:44 <libby> yeah. it also came up recently on the icalendar ietf list

21:41:28 * libby thought trackback was a url chrisdodo, at least usually...

21:41:50 <ChrisDodo> but the url doesn't have to have a webpage :)

21:41:56 <libby> heh, ok

21:42:02 * libby thougth usually was tho

21:42:20 <ChrisDodo> it's just a way of indicating "i'm talking about this"

21:42:36 <DanC> H:ooh... [http://sdg.lcs.mit.edu/alloy/case-studies.html|alloy case studies] includes one where "We used Alloy to analyze DAML+OIL ontologies."

21:42:36 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H5.

21:42:42 <ChrisDodo> damn you, now i have to built it to show you :)

21:42:52 <libby> heh

21:43:20 <libby> it might be cool to send it to the www-rdf-calendar list (I'll do it if you send me something) for a sanity check.

21:44:02 <libby> I've a feeling DanC objected to rss urls being event urls, but I can;t find the reference, so I may have made that up.

21:44:11 <ChrisDodo> I'll probably wait til I've got proper ical in the rdf first.

21:44:39 <libby> ok cool

21:45:23 <danbri> dc2003 snippet from jean g. of oclc: "xslt useful for mappings, but... knowledge in a set of xslt scripts can't be mined; need to keep track of semantic intent"

21:46:37 <mortenf> very good point, thought of something vaguely similar a few weeks ago...

21:48:57 <D[a]vey> :)

21:49:26 <libby> cool :)

21:50:58 <libby> lovely

21:51:08 <ChrisDodo> 2nd stupid question of the night: quite what is geoonion for?

21:51:35 * danbri will try.

21:51:49 <danbri> ok rdf forces you to express statements about the world in a certain style.

21:52:05 <danbri> you _could_ write RDF which said point X is 30434.2 metre from Y

21:52:35 <danbri> geonion provides a dozen or so 'useful' (...) distances, which may help simplify some UI and query issues

21:52:45 <danbri> 'find me restaurants within onion-3' etc

21:53:38 <ChrisDodo> ok, cool, that's what I thought.

21:53:39 <danbri> also for building in a bit of vagueness (I live within onion 2 of ...)

21:53:49 <ChrisDodo> it's a bit obtuse though.

21:54:02 <danbri> there's currently a foaf:based_near which is too vague really

21:54:12 <danbri> it's definitely experimental

21:54:22 <danbri> when i get a usb-happy gps will play more with it

21:54:39 <danbri> eek laptop power fading...

21:55:20 <ChrisDodo> what i'd like to see is a size element in geo. either a radius or a suare. it would make a lot of geo stuff a lot more useful.

21:56:26 <libby> geoonion is like that....

21:56:30 <libby> a radius

21:56:42 <danbri> radius yeah

21:57:01 <danbri> its a set of relations between places based on the circles that encompass them

21:57:07 <ChrisDodo> yeah, but something a bit less... graduated. And buillt into geo. place = lat + long (+ height) + size

21:57:46 <ChrisDodo> it still won't help working out if something is inside or outside something else.

21:58:26 <danbri> eg. <g2:Place g1:lat="..." g1:long="..." g1:alt="..." g2:size="..."/> ?

21:59:06 <ChrisDodo> yeah. throw a load of those together, and some magic, and it should be able to work out what is within, next to, near etc.

22:00:07 <_joshua> Down this path lies madness

22:00:12 <danbri> for a funny world of spheres and cubes

22:00:20 <ChrisDodo> :)

22:00:21 <_joshua> what about polygons?

22:00:27 <danbri> better to use Quake models? they come w/ editing tools etc? 1/2 ;)

22:00:36 <ChrisDodo> if you're doing polygons, might as well use GML.

22:00:54 <ChrisDodo> circles and squares are easy to compute.

22:00:56 * danbri wonders how VRML / web3d connect to this...

22:01:08 <JibberJim> See Chris Goad's stuff....

22:01:42 <JibberJim> - <http://www.mapbureau.com/rdfgeom2d1.0/revision2.html>

22:01:56 <_joshua> Evil

22:02:04 <_joshua> Circles are very easy.

22:02:09 <_joshua> Everything else is difficult.

22:02:34 <ChrisDodo> surely squares are easy?

22:03:11 <_joshua> No

22:03:43 <_joshua> intersection with squares is hard due to the fact that lines aren't straight on a sphere

22:03:48 <_joshua> angles aren't quite perpendicular

22:04:11 <ChrisDodo> ah, true. maybe i'm just thinking at country scale.

22:04:39 <_joshua> so circles are easy, because you can just check the distance and compare it to the radius

22:07:22 <ChrisDodo> i think there room for something in between complete 2/3d geometry and this onion thing. something light enough for a handset to be able to use for comparisons etc.

22:07:57 <_joshua> People don't think in squares anyway. They think in maps.

22:08:26 <ChrisDodo> yes, but things tend to be more square than circular :)

22:10:41 <DanC> hmm... what's the radius of a city? perhaps 2 radii are relevant: "everything within 10 miles of (x, y) is in Kansas City" and "all of Kansas City is within 20 miles of (x, y)"

22:12:26 <ChrisDodo> size of a city is a hard problem. http://radio.weblogs.com/0105728/2003/07/30.html#a466

22:12:30 * libby reminded of fuzzy 'sharpenings' from years ago in economics

22:13:06 <libby> evenryone can have a different idea of where the city boundaries are = a sharpening of the meaning of 'kansas city'

22:15:11 <ChrisDodo> we aren't in kansas anymore

22:15:58 <_joshua> Indeed

22:16:04 <_joshua> this is a difficult problem

22:16:19 <dajobe> I think you'll find DanC is

22:17:26 * DanC doesn't see the difficult problem

22:17:38 <DanC> I see an impossible problem and a bunch of related straightfoward problems

22:18:58 <ChrisDodo> optimist :)

22:20:22 * libby was thinking of supervaluationism and fuzzy logic: http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:ndZGKP0jdWoJ:www.supschool-logic.com/files/file5.doc+sharpenings+fuzzy&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

22:23:35 * libby is a robot :(

22:23:36 <libby> [[

22:23:37 <libby> Your software has been discovered sending too many requests to the chatlogs area ignoring the robots.txt entry for /discovery/chatlogs that forbids this. This page will be returned by all such requests from now on.

22:23:38 <libby> ]]

22:23:57 <libby> there doesn;t seem to be any way to search tghe logs

22:27:04 <sbp`> dajobe has promised a Web form

22:27:09 <sbp`> haven't you dajobe?

22:27:22 <D[a]vey> heh

22:27:23 <dajobe> yes

22:27:33 <sbp`> :-)

22:27:36 <dajobe> I'm still tweaking the CSS stuff

22:37:15 <DanC> H:2.1.3 No Sets or Scalars in the reference manual (PDF): "In Alloy,every expression denotes a relation.So there won t be any sets of atoms;they ll be represented by unary relations.And there won t be any scalars;they ll be represent- ed by singleton unary relations that is,relations with one column and one row."

22:37:27 <DanC> hmm... sounds kinda RDF-ish

22:43:46 <DanC> H:2.1.3 No Sets or Scalars in the reference manual (PDF): "In Alloy,every expression denotes a relation.So there won t be any sets of atoms;they ll be represented by unary relations.And there won t be any scalars;they ll be represent- ed by singleton unary relations that is,relations with one column and one row."

22:43:58 <DanC> dc_rdfig, hello?

22:44:27 <libby> dajobe can you unban me from the logs please, I need to look up a reference

22:48:25 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

22:49:07 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H6.

22:49:08 <dc_rdfig> Not understood: hello?

22:53:22 <DanC> H:"The keyword in was picked to capitalize on this pun:it can mean subset or membership. There s no risk of confusion because there are no sets of sets in Alloy."

22:53:22 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H7.

23:00:00 <DanC> H:no uncle problem here! "cousins =grandparents.~grandparents -siblings -iden [Person ]"

23:00:01 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H8.

23:07:49 <dmwaters> {global notice} Hi all, the netsplit earlier is do to some packetloss on the server's isp. If any of you may be interested in sponsoring a server, we are in need of both hub and leaf servers. If you are interested, please take a look at "http://freenode.net/sponsoring_servers.shtml" Thank you for using freenode!:)

23:13:01 <DanC> H:3.2.3 Ternary Fields ... Alloy's approach to NaryRelations

23:13:02 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H9.

23:24:41 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

23:37:16 <_joshua_> _joshua_ is now known as _joshua

23:40:39 <GabeW> hi all

23:48:00 <libby> hello gabew

23:50:54 * GabeW is about to run to a phone call

23:51:24 * GabeW is wondering about a URI scheme where I could just get a unique identifier.. like a number, with no other semantics

23:53:44 <GabeW> uniq:1, uniq:348388, etc

23:59:06 <libby> what's it for gabew?

23:59:18 <GabeW> long story

23:59:20 <libby> uris or uids or something no good?

23:59:28 <GabeW> well, i want a uri scheme ;-)

23:59:33 <GabeW> you mean uuids...

23:59:41 <libby> yeah