Semantic Web Interest Group IRC Chat Logs for 2003-10-21

00:05:58 <D[a]vey> JibberJim: an IRC bot in JavaScript?!

00:06:33 <JibberJim> Yes.

00:06:45 <D[a]vey> wow... is the code public?

00:11:55 <D[a]vey> JibberJim: how do you actually run the code?

00:12:24 <JibberJim> You need a DIRC, javascript always needs a framework to run in.

00:12:57 <D[a]vey> I mean, you're not running it in a web browser, right?

00:13:03 <JibberJim> no

00:13:18 <D[a]vey> so, something like Mozillas Rhino?

00:14:12 <JibberJim> DIRC (which that one is), or Mozilla's chat would do it, as would whitebeam or any javascript environment that provided a socket/net API

01:07:59 <eaon|out> eaon|out is now known as eaon

01:10:36 <eaon> does anyone of you know the german philosopher hegel?

01:11:05 <sbp> not personally, no. sorry

01:11:46 <eaon> :P

01:12:09 <eaon> he described an rdf like system back in 1800 something

01:12:30 <JibberJim> I believe he could be out-drunk by David Hume (although I had to check google for that...)

01:12:55 <sbp> I believe that some of the concepts in RDF go back to the Greeks, so it doesn't surprise me

01:37:27 <chaalsNCE> don't you guys sleep? (That was known in Greece too, I think)

01:44:22 <timbl-ma> Hmmm. validating something leaves me with errors because rdf:first and rdf:rest aren't declared.

01:44:39 <timbl-ma> Some time the ole schem'as going to need an overhaul.

02:03:19 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

02:03:22 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

02:31:48 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

02:36:47 <eaon> eaon is now known as eaon|zZz

04:24:27 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

07:35:33 <reto____________> reto____________ is now known as reto

07:41:53 <reto> whois sbp

07:42:08 <reto> sorry

08:37:32 <chaalsNCE> Sean B Palmer. Sean was last seen wandering vaguely, quite of his own accord. He tried to get down to the end of the town - 40 shillings reward.

08:37:41 <chaalsNCE> sorry.

12:16:01 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

13:09:11 <DanC-AIM> .time

13:09:12 <datum> Tue, 21 Oct 2003 13:09:12 GMT

13:10:23 <DanC-AIM> Ericm? I'm kinda on island time... I assume there's an opening plenary, but I don't have a program and I'm just finishing breakfast at this hotel.

13:10:38 <DanC-AIM> Nmg?

13:12:04 <DanC-AIM> Ah... If i've got enough bandwisth for this, maybe I can GET the program...

13:13:24 <danbri_> -> http://iswc2003.semanticweb.org/Tuesday.htm

13:14:03 <danbri_> seems to begin 9.15am local time.

13:14:12 <DanC-AIM> This gizmo isn't grokking the tables there well

13:14:19 <danbri_> breakfast+registration 8-9.45

13:14:24 <danbri_> the table is absurdly wide

13:14:33 <DanC-AIM> I don't see a plenary session, do you?

13:15:00 <danbri_> i see 3 tracks, Multi-Media, Foundations, Industrial.

13:15:06 <danbri_> no plenary that I can see.

13:15:15 <DanC-AIM> Good morning from the RSW area, btw, danbri.

13:15:23 <danbri_> hi :)

13:15:43 <DanC-AIM> And thanks for serving as http proxy ;-)

13:16:34 <DanC-AIM> I think I'll hop on the bike now. Any advice about which session to see is welcome.

13:16:55 <danbri_> "Prolog-based Infrastructure for RDF: Scalability and Performance" later in the day looks interesting. Jan W / SWI folks

13:17:05 <danbri_> ok have fun

13:17:35 <danbri_> Alberto Reggiori, Zavisa Bjelogrlic and Dirk-Willem van Gulik in Industrial track could be good; they've done some interesting work.

13:18:05 * danbri_ went out for a drink w/ Dirk in SF on friday, talked about geo apps, query etc...

13:19:25 <libby> yeah he's a good bloke

13:19:34 <dajobe> I'll likely see Dirk in AMS

13:19:34 <libby> very energetic too

13:19:50 * dajobe mutters open source bid quietly

13:20:02 <libby> he helped 802.11ed an entire town in the netherlands

13:20:12 <dajobe> yeah

13:20:22 <dajobe> is that a verb? :)

13:51:15 <DanC-AIM> 9:48... Let's see... How long was that ride?

13:52:12 <danbri_> 14:16 (=9.16? )<DanC-AIM> I think I'll hop on the bike now. Any advice about which session to see is welcome.

13:59:04 * nmg notices the RDF schema for CC/PP and gags

13:59:15 <nmg> they subclassed rdf:Property?

13:59:59 <danbri_> who says Property can't be subclassed?

14:00:25 <danbri_> some things are true of some, but not all, properties.

14:01:25 <nmg> true, encourgaing people to create new metamodels (by example) opens a can of worms

14:02:24 <nmg> bit of a questionable precedent to set

14:09:24 <DanC_RSW> bike ride completed 9:48... it started when danbri said "is that a verb"? let's see...

14:09:25 <DanC_RSW> .time

14:09:25 <datum> Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:09:25 GMT

14:09:57 <Davey> 1hr exactly since you said .time last

14:11:27 <DanC_RSW> 13:20:22 <dajobe> is that a verb? :)

14:11:41 <DanC_RSW> 48 - 20 = 28 minutes.

14:11:44 <DanC_RSW> now... how far was it?

14:12:44 <DanC_RSW> yp.yahoo doesn't recognize "sanibel island, fl" as a place

14:13:19 <DanC_RSW> wow... sundialresort.com gives gps coords!

14:13:25 <Davey> heh

14:13:28 <DanC_RSW> [[

14:13:28 <DanC_RSW> Global Positioning System (GPS) codes:

14:13:29 <DanC_RSW> Latitude 26? 25.94N

14:13:29 <DanC_RSW> Longitude 082? 03.13W

14:13:29 <DanC_RSW> ]]

14:13:35 <DanC_RSW> but where's the zip code...

14:14:33 <nmg> sundial may give gps coords (for the folk with boats, I guess), but they don't give anything so useful as a map

14:15:00 <Davey> nmg; LMAO

14:15:18 <DanC_RSW> 3 miles from best western to sundial per yp.yahoo http://yp.yahoo.com/py/ypResults.py?stx=best+western&stp=a&tab=B2C&addr=1451+Middle+Gulf+Dr&city=Sanibel&state=FL&zip=33957-6521&country=us&msa=2700&slt=26.433143&sln=-82.050885&cs=9&Submit=Search

14:15:42 <aharth> taxi is ten dollars

14:15:45 <DanC_RSW> sundial does give a map on their website.

14:16:20 <nmg> tell a lie, they've fixed their map

14:17:09 <aharth> danc: you're looking for a place to stay?

14:17:15 <nmg> last thursday, when I was trying to print out directions, it gave a map of an area with no roads or signs of habitation, that was definately *not* (wilderness for at least ten miles in any direction)

14:18:15 <DanC_RSW> no, I'm staying at the best western, and they provide complimentary bikes, which I've ridden here (Sundial) twice now.

14:18:33 <DanC_RSW> Guus asked how long it took and how far it was yesterday, and I said 20 minutes for 1.5 miles, which he thought was too slow.

14:19:07 <DanC_RSW> it's 3 miles though, and 28 minutes. much slower in the dark ;-)

14:19:31 <aharth> thought about going by bike also, but taxi is just so convenient, and west wind inn is a even farther than the best western

14:20:15 <DanC_RSW> oops; next session started 4 minutes ago. again too late to get a reasonable seat.

14:20:28 <aharth> where you want to go?

14:20:47 <DanC_RSW> dunno which session to see

14:21:17 * aharth is in the "commercial" session, swaped rooms because of too much interest for that session

14:21:52 <DanC_RSW> aharth, have we met? (I'm foaf:topic of http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/)

14:22:16 <aharth> danc: not in real life i think

14:23:06 * aharth at www.harth.org/andreas

14:23:13 <DanC_RSW> I have hardcopy of my public key fingerprint... I like to use f2f events to experiment with gpg trust

14:23:56 <aharth> danc: hm thought of playing with pgp for a long time... i even have my passport here for authentification

14:24:10 <aharth> have no public key yet though

14:28:43 <DanC_RSW> aha! massimo (marchiori) reaches the "ok, I'll try knoppix" threshold after trying to get net access from win98 for 20 minutes.

14:29:22 * DanC_RSW makes his debut as knoppix/debian/linux personal evangelist

14:29:42 <DanC_RSW> fiddling with bios to boot from CD...

14:29:52 <danbri_> what is knoppix? i have a 'knoppix, runs from cd' disk from O'Reilly, don't know what to do with it!

14:29:55 * DanC_RSW carries knoppix and debian sarge installation CD at all times

14:29:55 <danbri_> .google knoppix

14:29:56 <datum> knoppix: http://www.knoppix.org/

14:30:16 <danbri_> ...is Closed because of "Software-Patents"

14:30:18 <DanC_RSW> knoppix is a linux distribution that runs off CD; zero-install

14:30:32 <danbri_> nice

14:30:59 <DanC_RSW> it answers "but will linux support my hardware?" questions without screwing up whatever OS you have installed.

14:31:11 <darobin> you can actually access the site by clicking through the knoppix link

14:31:53 <DanC_RSW> ok, booting from knoppix CD...

14:32:26 <DanC_RSW> friendly penguin...

14:33:22 <DanC_RSW> 802.11 card recognized...

14:33:26 <DanC_RSW> X windows seems to be working...

14:33:53 <DanC_RSW> KDE starting...

14:34:25 <DanC_RSW> the acid test... www.w3.org...

14:34:46 <DanC_RSW> long pause...

14:35:33 <danbri_> (all around the world, #rdfig holds its breath)

14:35:58 <DanC_RSW> unknown host...

14:36:17 <danbri_> aw

14:36:38 <danbri_> Non-authoritative answer:

14:36:38 <danbri_> Name: www.w3.org

14:36:38 <danbri_> Address: 18.29.1.34

14:36:38 <danbri_> Name: www.w3.org

14:36:38 <danbri_> Address: 18.29.1.35

14:36:38 <danbri_> Name: www.w3.org

14:36:47 <danbri_> Address: 18.7.14.127

14:36:48 <danbri_> wanna try numeric?

14:37:19 <DanC_RSW> anybody know the knoppix root passwd?

14:37:55 <dajobe> "Q: What is the root password?

14:37:55 <dajobe> A: There is none; all passwords are locked by default."

14:37:55 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A3.

14:38:00 <danbri_> "you need to click the k button on kde, go to KNOPPIX menu, choose root shell. "

14:38:01 <dajobe> A3:""

14:38:01 <dc_rdfig> Deleted comment A3.

14:38:03 <danbri_> from googling

14:38:26 <danbri_> [

14:38:26 <danbri_> Hit the "K" , go to the KNOPPIX menu, and click on root console and you will now have root access

14:38:26 <danbri_> root by default has NO password, so either use the root console under the KNOPPIX menu, or use a virtual terminal (ctrl+alt+f2)

14:38:26 <danbri_> (ctrl+alt+f5 to get back to kde)

14:38:27 <danbri_> ]

14:38:28 <danbri_> also

14:39:19 <DanC_RSW> "you need to click the k button on kde, go to KNOPPIX menu, choose root

14:39:19 <DanC_RSW> shell. "

14:39:26 <DanC_RSW> -- http://lists.ethernal.org/cantlug-0305/msg00301.html

14:42:31 <DanC_RSW> swapping network cards allows us to ping

14:42:55 <DanC_RSW> and we have http://www.w3.org/

14:43:03 <DanC_RSW> tada!

14:43:34 <DanC_RSW> massimo ssh's out to the world...

14:45:45 <sbp> <DanC_RSW> aharth, have we met? (I'm foaf:topic of http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/)

14:46:21 <sbp> from that I got { foaf:homepage owl:inverseOf [ rdfs:subPropertyOf foaf:topic ] } But on reading the specification, it's certainly true that { foaf:homepage rdfs:subPropertyOf [ owl:inverseOf foaf:topic ] } holds since foaf:page fits the bNode

14:46:43 <sbp> I'm just wondering if the two forms entail one another

14:56:10 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

14:56:19 <DanC_RSW> massimo boots windows to see if this network card works, and to get access to his outlook rules and IMAP cache. :-{

15:08:50 <DanC_RSW> "foaf.asemantics.com/zac" -- back of t-shirt on guy next to me

15:09:41 <DanC_RSW> XML Parsing Error: mismatched tag. Expected: </rdf:RDF>.

15:09:41 <DanC_RSW> Location: http://foaf.asemantics.com/zac

15:09:41 <DanC_RSW> Line Number 52, Column 5: </foaf:Person>

15:22:08 <DanC-AIM> byebye

15:41:38 <DanC_RSW> hmm... treo 270 is free-after-rebates at amazon, and t-mobile offers flat-rate data

15:41:45 <DanC_RSW> 300 minute plan is $30, plus $20 for data. that's only $5 or $10 more than I'm paying now.

15:41:52 <DanC_RSW> the sidekick guys are in trouble

15:44:26 <JibberJim> What's the motivation for rebates in the US - I don't understand it, surely that just gives money to the Sales-Tax man?

15:47:12 <DanC_RSW> cash flow?

15:47:19 <bijan> No

15:47:25 <bijan> Most poeple don't do the rebate

15:47:27 <bijan> It's often tedious

15:47:42 <bijan> I suspect that they are almost self-funding

15:47:42 * DanC_RSW can vouch for tediousness

15:47:51 <bijan> (but granted, I don't have hard numbers)

15:48:56 <JibberJim> RIght, so it's just con-the-lazy/stupid to pay the high price, whilst getting it available at the cheap to those who want it.

15:56:37 <DanC_RSW> BLURB: ISWC Foundations session Tuesday PM

15:56:38 <dc_rdfig> A: ISWC Foundations session Tuesday PM from DanC_RSW

15:56:55 <DanC_RSW> A:cf [http://iswc2003.semanticweb.org/Tuesday.htm|tuesday IWSC program]

15:56:55 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A1.

15:57:31 <DanC_RSW> A:"Merging Topics in Well-formed XML Topic Maps" Richard Widhalm and Thomas A. Mueck

15:57:31 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A2.

15:57:37 * DanC_RSW wonders how to find the paper itself

15:58:52 <DanC_RSW> I wanna help a mac OS X user grok IRC. recommended clients?

15:59:28 <bijan> XChat?

15:59:33 <bijan> There's an aqua version

15:59:38 <nmg> papers don't appear to be available online except through springer's subscription-only website

15:59:43 <DanC_RSW> xchat aqua is endorsed in http://esw.w3.org/topic/InternetRelayChat

15:59:44 <GabeW> i hear chatzilla is much improved

15:59:44 <bijan> And if they've never used a decent cilent before, Chatzilla sorta works

15:59:47 <nmg> chiz chiz

15:59:51 <bijan> It is

15:59:53 <DanC_RSW> does chatzilla do loggin now?

15:59:56 <bijan> IT's not merely absurdly sucky

16:00:07 <bijan> Rather than horrifically abusrdly sucky

16:00:09 <nmg> chatzilla is pretty good - I switched from xchat to it about a month ago, and haven't had cause for complaint yet

16:00:10 <bijan> Dunno :(

16:00:15 <DanC_RSW> paper's aren't available!?!?@!@$!T?#$Ywlk5h3q';4hraenjms

16:00:22 <bijan> Try to paste a multiline quote

16:00:28 <darobin> DanC_RSW: yes it does, you just turn it on with /log on

16:00:31 * dajobe ranted on this last week, IIRC, not doing it again

16:00:40 <DanC_RSW> pointer?

16:00:45 <darobin> I'm using it now, it's not perfect but quite good

16:00:46 <bijan> What paper's aren't available/

16:00:49 <dajobe> sorry, rdfig is slashdotted atm

16:00:50 * nmg grins at dajobe 'deja vu...'

16:00:51 <bijan> oh, iswc

16:01:00 <bijan> Yeah, they never are expect to subscribers

16:01:04 <bijan> Or via people's home pages

16:01:11 <bijan> I tend to forget having my uni account

16:01:21 <darobin> I just wish they'd document the API so I could play with its javascript extensions

16:01:26 * DanC_RSW encourages folks to update http://esw.w3.org/topic/InternetRelayChat to reflect their views on clients

16:01:33 <dajobe> dajobe has changed the topic to: Semantic Web hack-n-chat http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/ (slashdotted 2003-10-21, be patient) latest logs http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/latest wiki http://esw.w3.org/topic/FrontPage

16:02:32 <DanC_RSW> any xchat aqua users present? I think I'll try that.

16:02:55 <DanC_RSW> Q: where did you get your OCL verifier

16:02:55 <dc_rdfig> Label Q not found.

16:02:56 <danbri_> I use it on my laptop. It's OK. I remember it missing something, but I forget what!

16:03:13 <DanC_RSW> . A: from [can't hear]

16:03:21 <nmg> darobin: chatzilla logging is persistent, so you only need to do it the once

16:03:23 <DanC_RSW> . A: ... proprietary format ...

16:03:24 <dajobe> I use it ok on ibook, but prefer xchat on X11 which is also possiblity on OSX

16:03:31 <darobin> nmg: yup I know

16:04:06 <darobin> I also like the fact that all you see can be styled by setting your own /css file

16:04:25 <nmg> thought you probably did, and was saying it mostly fo rthe benefit of the unbelievers who aren't yet using chatzilla...

16:04:35 <DanC_RSW> I sure like the fact that chatzilla can follow irc: links... has anybody gotten safari to grok irc: links to chatzilla?

16:05:03 <nmg> hmmm. so, which particular standard for irc: links is this? ;)

16:07:18 <DanC_RSW> cf http://esw.w3.org/topic/UriSchemes_2firc

16:09:04 <DanC_RSW> A:"Semantic Processing of the Semantic Web" Kunal Patel and Gopal Gupta [which of them is presenting?]

16:09:05 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A3.

16:09:24 <DanC_RSW> A:ARGH! papers aren't world-readable via HTTP

16:09:24 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A4.

16:09:35 <dajobe> hehe

16:09:50 <monkeyiq> always nice to share the knowledge :/

16:09:55 * dajobe updates http://esw.w3.org/topic/InternetRelayChat

16:11:13 <DanC_RSW> A:"Problems" slide says RDF, RDFS, DAML have 'different design methodologies' and that this is a problem. Sigh! RDF is a coherent design methodolgy.

16:11:13 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A5.

16:11:51 <danbri_> A:There are a couple of different design methodologies co-existing in OWL though...

16:11:51 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A6.

16:11:53 <DanC_RSW> A:"Solutions" translate description formats and query languages to Executable Notation.

16:11:53 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A7.

16:12:27 <DanC_RSW> A:stipulated, OWL DL abstract syntax is a different design methodology

16:12:27 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A8.

16:15:20 <DanC_RSW> slashdotted! heh!

16:15:50 <dajobe> edd's p900 stuff

16:16:14 <dajobe> well, p800 but should be applicable to the new phone

16:16:50 * Ian waves

16:17:09 <danbri_> Hi Ian. Fancy meeting you here...

16:18:00 <Ian>http://www.w3.org/2003/10/16-webarch-owl.txt

16:18:00 <dc_rdfig> B: http://www.w3.org/2003/10/16-webarch-owl.txt from Ian

16:18:47 <DanC_RSW> hmm... which to pay attention to... A or B

16:18:56 <Ian> Hi Dan! :)

16:19:15 <danbri_> B:|webarch in OWL scribblings from Ian

16:19:15 <dc_rdfig> Titled item B.

16:19:16 <DanC_RSW> A:buzzwords include DCG, lambda calculus, horn logic

16:19:16 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A9.

16:19:23 <Ian> I was hoping to get some additional feedback on B.

16:19:36 <Ian> I fixed a few things. Read OWL Ref Manual a couple of times (so feeling more comfortable).

16:19:40 <danbri_> B:Attempts to use OWL/RDFS to describe various thingies and relationships of interest to webarch/TAG folk.

16:19:40 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B1.

16:19:46 <danbri_> logger, pointer?

16:19:46 <danbri_> See http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2003-10-21#T16-19-46

16:19:51 <Ian> (Read up to but not including section 6)

16:20:07 <danbri_> B:See [http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2003-10-21#T16-19-46 irc chat logs].

16:20:07 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B2.

16:20:26 <danbri_> which is section 6?

16:20:34 <Ian> Owl 6.: Datatypes

16:21:22 <danbri_> oh right

16:21:28 <Ian> DanBri, shall I walk through B?

16:21:44 <DanC_RSW> A:his integrated approach includes parsing RDF/XML into a pretty straightforward prolog(ish?) RDF graph representation. He calls this the "denotation".

16:21:44 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A10.

16:21:48 <danbri_> that'd be good. I'm starting to form murky questions in my mind...

16:21:49 <danbri_> <owl:Class rdf:ID="Resource">

16:21:49 <danbri_> <!-- A Resource may have 0 or more representations -->

16:21:58 <danbri_> So in RDF/OWL, 'resource' is just ~ thing.

16:22:04 <danbri_> Everything is a resource (aka thing).

16:22:05 <Ian> Let's start with "URI"?

16:22:14 <danbri_> Is there a TAG sense that's more restricted.

16:22:14 <danbri_> OK, URI.

16:22:18 <danbri_> Tell me about URIs!

16:22:24 <Ian> :)

16:22:24 <DanC_RSW> A:pp. 80-94 in the dead-trees proceedings

16:22:25 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A11.

16:22:48 <Ian> URI is subclass of URI ref.

16:23:25 <Ian> Later I will want to say that the set of values of URIStrings for URIs is constrained.

16:23:30 <Ian> E.g., starts with URISchemeName ":"

16:23:34 <Ian> Not sure how to say that.

16:23:48 <DanC_RSW> Ian, don't model URI as a subclass of URI ref. they play very different roles.

16:24:07 <Ian> I am new to rdfig.

16:24:15 <DanC_RSW> er... well, if you look at them as strings, of course, the subclass relationship does hold. hmm...

16:24:16 <Ian> Should I take "Notes"?

16:24:22 <DanC_RSW> logger, pointer?

16:24:22 <DanC_RSW> See http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2003-10-21#T16-24-22

16:24:25 <Ian> I am not looking at them as strings here.

16:24:27 <DanC_RSW> ^notes for free

16:24:42 <DanC_RSW> then don't look at URI as a subclass of URIref

16:24:43 <Ian> Let's keep going.

16:24:45 <Ian> Ok.

16:24:46 <danbri_> Ian, just type away. We're logged...

16:24:57 <Ian> URI identifies one resource.

16:25:01 <Ian> Not 0 or 1, but one.

16:25:02 <danbri_> Comment to the weblog thing with B: prefix if you like

16:25:25 <danbri_> for every URI, there is exactly one thing in the world it is the URI name for.

16:25:38 <Ian> Yes. That is a webarch:resource.

16:25:43 <Ian> (We'll get there... :)

16:25:59 <danbri_> is webarch:resource a class / category of thing?

16:26:04 <Ian> Don't go there yet!

16:26:05 <Ian> :)

16:26:06 <DanC_RSW> webarch:resource = rdfs:Resource.

16:26:11 <Ian> doh.

16:26:33 <danbri_> (naming classes with an Initial Capital Letter is a useful convention in RDF land... so when we see lowercase tend to assume it is a relationship/property).

16:26:36 <Ian> Ok.

16:26:53 <Ian> So URIString is going to be a subset of values of URIRefString

16:27:02 <Ian> [DanC, here I am talking at string level.]

16:27:28 <Ian> I don't know whether in this document it's necessary to look at the syntax of URI/URI Ref strings any further.

16:28:19 <Ian> I don't know how to talk about syntax yet. For instance:

16:28:39 <Ian> relativeURIStrings can start with "." or ".." or ...

16:29:12 <DanC_RSW> A:"Release forthcoming." per [http://www.utdallas.edu/~gupta/|Gupta's homepage]

16:29:12 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A12.

16:31:07 <Ian> Then, a URI has several properties, at least: identifiedResource, scheme, authority

16:31:17 <Ian> I was mostly interested in resource and scheme stuff for now.

16:31:37 <Ian> Discussions about what "authority" means are ongoing.

16:32:11 <Ian> I did have a question re: authority, however: I was not sure how to refer to a "real world entity". I felt like I fell head-first into a pile of httpRange-14.

16:32:15 <nmg> nmg is now known as nmg_lunching

16:32:32 <Ian> I should probably DTRT in OWL land and use '#', for example.

16:32:42 <Ian> E.g., to refer to iana: http://www.iana.org/#

16:32:43 <Ian> ?

16:33:01 <danbri_> Yes, it is tricky using a technology to describe a possibly contentious view of that technology...

16:33:35 * Ian smiles at "octothorp".

16:33:48 <danbri_> Do you plan to say things (in prose if not machine-ese) about the URI-to-world binding? eg. whether the identifiedResource of a URI may differ over time?

16:33:51 * Ian thinks TAG discussed finding entitled "Octothorp considered Harmful" :)

16:34:25 <Ian> That would also be contentious, but it would be good to say something.

16:34:44 <Ian> Do you talk about it being a functional property?

16:34:57 <danbri_> I give that as an example of something you'd find tough to capture formally in RDF/RDFS/OWL...

16:35:16 <Ian> Ok.

16:35:20 <danbri_> yes, functional property sort of captures it, except it doesn't really talk about change, or the world...

16:35:28 <Ian> How would you go about that?

16:36:17 <Ian> For representations, I gave a timestamp property.

16:37:05 <danbri_> a representation is something like a generalisation of HTTP's notion of an entity?

16:37:06 <Ian> DanC, I don't remember whether you put the "time" param at the message level or attached to representation.

16:37:12 <danbri_> mime-typable bag of bytes?

16:37:15 <Ian> yes

16:37:18 <Ian> Well, includes the mime-type

16:37:31 * danbri_ intrigued by identity conditions...

16:37:47 <Ian> which means?

16:37:48 <danbri_> could two identical sequences of bytes be different entities? guess so if the mime-type is part of it

16:38:04 <danbri_> meaning, what rules do we have for knowing whether two Foos are the same Foo.

16:38:21 <danbri_> (a bit of a tangent, don't worry)

16:38:23 <Ian> Identifying URI + timestamp + mime type + bits

16:38:47 * Ian says off the top of his head

16:38:56 <Ian> + metadata

16:39:02 * danbri_ rereads http://www.w3.org/2003/10/16-webarch-owl.txt

16:39:05 <Ian> (e.g., Content-Language

16:39:37 <danbri_> are you happy guanteeing that a URI always identifies something?

16:39:41 <Ian> Yes.

16:39:50 <Ian> There may be 0 representations for it initially.

16:39:55 <danbri_> (it certainly makes RDF logic simpler, non-denoting terms are evil to reason about).

16:40:20 <danbri_> ah, maybe the restriction is pushed up a level, and you're being more conservative about which Strings are URIs.

16:40:30 <Ian> Yes

16:40:54 <danbri_> If a string is the right shape (matches appropriate regexes), is that enough? or ah so you have the additional constraint that it names something.

16:41:28 <danbri_> So I can go and claim http://qwertyuip.danbri.org/nothinghere is a URI which names nothing, and you'd come back with 'it isn't a URI then'...?

16:41:49 <Ian> Is "nothing" a webarch:resource?

16:42:14 <Ian> I want to say that a URI always identifies something.

16:42:26 <danbri_> I don't know. If we follow DanC and webarch:resource==rdfs:Resource, then no...

16:42:28 <Ian> But we may not have gone to the trouble to provide representations of that resource.

16:43:12 <DanC_RSW> that guy's a jerk

16:43:17 <Ian> ???

16:43:29 <DanC_RSW> wrong channel. was demonstrating.

16:43:36 * Ian lol

16:43:39 <danbri_> charming :)

16:43:48 <sbp> heh

16:43:50 <danbri_> <Class rdf:ID="Thing">

16:43:50 <danbri_> <rdfs:label>Thing</rdfs:label>

16:43:50 <danbri_> <unionOf rdf:parseType="Collection">

16:43:50 <danbri_> <Class rdf:about="#Nothing"/>

16:43:50 <danbri_> <Class>

16:43:51 <danbri_> <complementOf rdf:resource="#Nothing"/>

16:43:55 <danbri_> </Class>

16:43:57 <danbri_> </unionOf>

16:43:59 <danbri_> </Class>

16:44:01 <danbri_> <Class rdf:ID="Nothing">

16:44:03 <danbri_> <rdfs:label>Nothing</rdfs:label>

16:44:05 <danbri_> <complementOf rdf:resource="#Thing"/>

16:44:07 <danbri_> </Class>

16:44:34 <danbri_> OWL's treatment of 'nothing'... hmm head hurt now. Can I forget I posted this?

16:45:00 <Ian> I was working with this model:

16:45:05 <Ian> a) URI always identifies exactly one resource.

16:45:10 <DanC_RSW> why does the empty set hurt your head, danbri?

16:45:12 <sbp> { ?x rdf:type :Nothing } => { ?x rdf:type rdfs:Resource }

16:45:13 <Ian> b) There may not be representations of that resource.

16:45:29 <sbp> but I guess nothing can be nothing...

16:45:36 <danbri_> (head hurts from trying to remember collection syntax and owl structures and think at same time)

16:46:21 <danbri_> So are you looking to beef up: <owl:ObjectProperty rdf:ID="identifiedResource">

16:46:21 <danbri_> <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#URI"/>

16:46:21 <danbri_> <rdfs:range rdf:resource="#Resource"/>

16:46:21 <danbri_> </owl:ObjectProperty>

16:46:31 <danbri_> ...to capture more of this?

16:46:39 <Ian> Well, you introduced the question of time.

16:46:44 <Ian> I avoided the question of persistence.

16:47:03 <Ian> But I am interested in how you would say "and the identity of that thing doesn't change"

16:47:04 <danbri_> yeah, sorry, it's an annoying complication. But you'll run into it via the notion of Authority I suspect.

16:47:30 <DanC_RSW> we'll need a whole new model to talk about authority, time, and the like.

16:47:39 <danbri_> I believe the DAML-S/OWL-S folks had similar issues w/ process modelling, reasoning about change...

16:48:04 <Ian> Maybe for now I could say something like:

16:48:06 <danbri_> OK, that makes sense. So this model captures a snapshot of the world as it is at some reading...

16:48:21 <Ian> <owl:ObjectProperty rdf:ID="Resource">

16:48:36 <Ian> sorry...restart

16:48:37 * DanC_RSW wanders off to lunch...

16:48:52 <Ian> <owl:ObjectProperty rdf:ID="meaningAssignedBy">

16:49:03 <Ian> <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#Resource"/>

16:49:12 <Ian> <rdfs:range rdf:resource="#Authority"/>

16:49:13 <Ian> </>

16:49:28 <Ian> But I don't know that it's worth talking about "meaning" ehre.

16:49:29 <Ian> here

16:49:55 <danbri_> I usually run a mile from talk of meaning, but I think what you're sketching captures some of what I've heard TimBL say about authority and URIs.

16:50:04 <Ian> But we may not have to talk about meaning.

16:50:09 <Ian> Just stop at authority.

16:50:11 <Ian> Not sure yet

16:50:18 <Ian> (Since I had avoided the Authority stuff for now. :)

16:50:32 <Ian> Next section on frag ids.

16:50:49 <Ian> URI is U of URIWithoutFragId and URIWithFragID

16:50:49 * danbri_ looks

16:51:12 <Ian> But I framed in terms of subclasses instead.

16:52:05 <Ian> Again, I was wondering whether I should go so far as to say "the part of the URI string after the '#'".

16:52:09 <Ian> In any case, I don't know how to say that.

16:52:11 <danbri_> DanC was saying that best to treat URIs apart from frag'd version

16:52:29 <Ian> I thought he referred to URI refs (in particular relative URI refs).

16:52:35 <Ian> In the webarch model:

16:52:41 <danbri_> The closest I've seen there is some stuff Cwm/N3 folks do, using log:uri, and log:stringStartsWith or similar.

16:52:41 <Ian> URI is absolute URI with optional frag id.

16:52:53 <Ian> I don't know the log: namespace.

16:53:07 <Ian> LESSON 1: To do cool stuff you need to know the cool ontologies.

16:53:27 <danbri_> some are even so cool they're not all documented yet

16:53:40 <Ian> Like this one ;)

16:53:49 <Ian> Who does log: ?

16:54:03 <danbri_> tim'n'dan'n'co

16:54:28 <Ian> Gotcha

16:54:45 <Ian> Let's go to URI Schemes

16:55:14 <danbri_> B:Nearishby, [http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/0520-www-tf1-d1-reach/slide11-0.html|notes on log:uri] from SW tutorial.

16:55:14 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B3.

16:55:20 <Ian> thanks

16:55:49 <Ian> Scheme name has lexical constraints I didn't capture (e.g., no ":").

16:56:20 <Ian> I distinguished registered URi scheme from unregistered since we say at one point that there are dangers of using unregistered schemes.

16:56:35 <Ian> And it seems like registry will be a concept that comes in handy also for media types.

16:56:50 <danbri_> yup, makes sense

16:56:54 <Ian> I was on a particular roll when I started spitting out things about registries ;)

16:57:23 <Ian> I could see how the mind of a sem web geek could be overrun by the need to create ontologies.

16:57:29 <danbri_> I'm not sure how much of this structure you can reflect sensibly in RDF/OWL... But I have seen some pretty Perl-ish N3 out there, so if you're persistent...

16:57:34 <danbri_> lol

16:57:46 <danbri_> and ontologies about ontologies, mustn't forget them

16:57:52 <Ian> In fact, I think that the goal of the semantic web is not to make data more machine readable, it needs to be phrased like this:

16:58:21 <Ian> "The Semantic Web (and I anthropomorphize intentionally) is about making Semantic Web geeks more like machines."

16:58:39 <Ian> s/is about making/has as its mission to make/

16:58:58 <Ian> We are seeing The Matrix here.

16:59:01 <danbri_> create a comforting cartoon universe we can all upload ourselves to, absolutely.

16:59:01 <Ian> Live on #rdfig

16:59:13 <Ian> Rise of the machines#

16:59:46 <Ian> So, note that URIs, Schemes, FragIds are all "more abstract" than just strings.

16:59:52 <Ian> One reason was to point to defining specs.

17:00:15 <Ian> I forgot to say that URIs are defined by RFC2396. That might be fun.

17:00:23 <Ian> I haven't done much with instancse.

17:00:56 <Ian> I find it mildly confusing that the OWL spec talks mostly about "individuals" and once in a while about "instances".

17:01:10 <Ian> (And says that owl:instance owl:sameAs owl:individual)

17:01:46 <danbri_> So RFC2396 and its disciples are the authoritative source for determining the rules for membership of the class 'URI'?

17:01:52 <Ian> Yes.

17:02:56 <Ian> I wonder whether it's useful to say that membership in some of these classes is well-defined.

17:03:13 <Ian> I think that for URIs, it's about URIString, though.

17:03:17 <Ian> [Not sure]

17:03:25 <danbri_> OWL has gadgetry for giving class membership rules, but it needs a nice cartoon picture to work with...

17:03:44 <danbri_> eg. 'A W3CPerson is a Person that has a workplaceHomepage of http://www.w3.org/' is do-able.

17:03:56 <danbri_> What exactly do you mean by 'well-defined'?

17:04:09 <danbri_> presumably not a comment on readability of RFC2396...

17:04:11 <Ian> <owl:Class rdf:ID="URIString">

17:04:55 <Ian> Hmmm. Pause

17:05:56 <danbri_>http://www.topicmapcentral.com/wiki/Wiki.jsp

17:05:56 <dc_rdfig> C: http://www.topicmapcentral.com/wiki/Wiki.jsp from danbri_

17:06:03 <danbri_> C:|Topic Maps Pattern Wiki

17:06:03 <dc_rdfig> Titled item C.

17:06:11 <Ian> I can't tell whether I want to say webarch:URISTring owl:equivalentClass rfc2396:URI

17:06:17 <danbri_> C:Spotted on topicmapmail list.

17:06:17 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C1.

17:06:38 <Ian> or assign a property to URIString that the authoritative syntax of URIStrings is defined in RFC2396.

17:07:13 <danbri_> If rfc2396 came with an OWL/RDF vocab, then rfc2396:URI might make sense...

17:07:25 <Ian> But I don't think it does.

17:07:37 <danbri_> Yup, it doesn't. So, RFC2396 defines the legal syntax for URIStrings.

17:07:40 <Ian> ok.

17:07:44 <danbri_> Which would allow...

17:07:58 <danbri_> the URIString 'http://dlskgjdlgkdljgsdf.danbri.org:3453/sdfsgts.xyz'

17:08:03 <danbri_> ...since it only checks syntax.

17:08:06 <Ian> right.

17:08:18 <danbri_> How do you capture the observation that only some of these are URIs (ie. names for things)?

17:08:27 <Ian> I am struggling with that.

17:08:43 <danbri_> that sounds appropriate :)

17:08:49 <Ian> You don't know everything by looking at the string.

17:08:55 <Ian> You don't know the identified resource.

17:09:12 <Ian> Hmm, maybe you do.

17:09:30 <danbri_> yup. If you want to say that all URIs name exactly one thing, something somewhere has to separate that class from the syntactically checkable class of URIsAndStringsThatLookJustLikeThem.

17:09:48 <Ian> I agree.

17:10:18 <danbri_> Do you have any special model in mind for horrible context-dependent URIs like file:// ? eg. file://dev/mouse ...?

17:10:41 <Ian> I think that in that case, "localhost" is implied.

17:10:45 <danbri_> (<img src="file://dev/mouse"/> used to cause havoc, assume that's long fixed)

17:10:55 <Ian> We deal with that in Web arch.

17:10:59 <Ian> (or did at one time)

17:11:02 <danbri_> ok, even with a localhost, you have a context dependency.

17:11:11 <danbri_> Is 'http://localhost/' a URIString?

17:11:15 <danbri_> Is 'http://localhost/' a URI?

17:11:22 <Ian> Yes.

17:11:34 * danbri_ waits

17:11:42 <Ian> I'm not committing myself to URI v. URIString yet.

17:11:43 <Ian> :)

17:11:45 <danbri_> both?

17:11:47 <danbri_> ah ok.

17:12:35 <danbri_> interesting thing is we can check the syntax and know it is OK. I've been wondering if any attempt to pick out the class of dodgy / overly-context-sensitive URIs is doomed.

17:13:10 <danbri_> ie. I can't think of a crisp reason why http://localhost/ is 'bad' but 'http://www.w3.org/' is OK, since both get various answers back from hostname lookup.

17:13:35 * danbri_ getting distracted by detail, not sure how to be more helpful re http://www.w3.org/2003/10/16-webarch-owl.txt

17:14:48 <danbri_> oh, I have to go! Ian, thanks for posting this, it's very interesting, I need to think more about it...

17:19:29 <danbri_> netsplit, urk.

17:25:32 <dmwaters_> {global notice} Hi all, it appears that one of our main us hubs is having very serious routing issues, I'm going to do emergency hubbing to fix the situation, so please bare with me.

17:29:00 <DanC_RSW> BLURB: "Birds of a Feather" Discussion (Guus Schreiber)

17:29:00 <dc_rdfig> D: "Birds of a Feather" Discussion (Guus Schreiber) from DanC_RSW

17:29:18 <DanC_RSW> D:subevent of [ISWC tuesday|http://iswc2003.semanticweb.org/Tuesday.htm]

17:29:18 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D1.

17:29:28 <DanC_RSW> D:on OWL outreach

17:29:28 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D2.

17:34:45 <DanC_RSW> B:hmm... I don't know everybody here. Guus is writing on a whiteboard, but I'm not sure what the expectations are about records

17:34:45 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B4.

17:40:20 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

17:41:08 <DanC_RSW> D:not clear what the relationship of this discussion to the WebOnt WG or W3C. sigh.

17:41:09 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D3.

17:48:10 <lilo> [Global Notice] Hi all. Severe packet loss on a main rotation hub server caused repeated reconnects. It's been resolved. Parenthetically, still working on the global notices replacement. Thank you for your patience, and thank you for using freenode!

17:58:23 <DanC_RSW> I think I just pointed a bunch of people to esw.w3.org ... does that have a link to /topic/?

17:58:56 <mortenf> to /topic/FrontPage yes

17:59:08 <sbp> yes

18:15:03 <arnarl> hi

18:26:43 <DanC_jam> Hendler awards owl.owl award to ?? @ Network Inference

18:26:48 <DanC_jam> .time

18:26:48 <datum> Tue, 21 Oct 2003 18:26:48 GMT

18:27:23 * nmg_lunching hears a muttered "to ontology...and beyond" from bijan's direction in response to jim's title slide

18:27:35 <DanC_jam> BLURB: Invited talk - JIM HENDLER

18:27:35 <dc_rdfig> E: Invited talk - JIM HENDLER from DanC_jam

18:27:48 <DanC_jam> E:during [ISWC tuesday|http://iswc2003.semanticweb.org/Tuesday.htm]

18:27:48 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E1.

18:28:19 <nmg_lunching> nmg_lunching is now known as nmg

18:28:27 <jeen> award was to Rob Shearer

18:29:58 <DanC_jam> E:"we're at that point which timbl says will say we're winning, where the question moves from what? to how?"

18:29:58 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E2.

18:30:26 * DanC_jam is at 60% battery

18:30:48 <jeen> DanC, there's a free seat with a free plug next to me...

18:33:53 <DanC_jam> . JH: adobe 6.x supports RDF

18:34:04 <DanC_jam> . JH: IBM at WWW2003 announced semtag

18:34:40 <DanC_jam> . JH: HP supporting semantic web; Jena...

18:35:12 <DanC_jam> . JH: world's largest soft-drink company has invested in a semweb start-up

18:36:00 <DanC_jam> . JH: some of the companies with booths downstairs are among the next wave

18:36:53 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

18:40:25 <DanC_jam> . JH: like visicalc launched the PC marketplace, displacing teams of cobol programmers who would be called in to generate reports...

18:40:47 <DanC_jam> ... the semantic web and web services are poised to displace the teams of programmers called in to do business process engineering

18:45:27 <DanC_jam> . JH: BPEL is turing complete, which is good for executing choreography, but not for analyzing

18:45:44 <DanC_jam> reminds me of principle of least power...

18:45:58 <DanC_jam> ... is that adequately documented? would a wiki topic help? hmm...

18:46:02 <DanC_jam> .google "principle of least power"

18:46:03 <datum> "principle of least power": http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Principles.html

18:50:10 <DanC_jam> . JH: I'm puzzled by papers that say, in a sense, "you left this out of OWL". The way good standards evolve is that add-ons are built and have their value demonstrated in a community, ...

18:50:22 <DanC_jam> ... and that community is represented next time the standard is revised.

18:52:14 <DanC_jam> . JH: [in challenge to ontology folk] please look at WebOnt postponed issues list, where the WG said "we hope our successor can do XYZ"

18:54:06 * DanC_jam at 40% battery

18:55:02 <DanC_jam> . JH makes keynote transition to "Web of Semantics" slide

18:55:42 <DanC_jam> . JH: "a little semantics goes a long way". been saying this since '96 or '97. SHOE group put in on t-shirts.

19:00:21 <DanC_jam> E:[http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2003-10-21.html#T18-27-35-1|more notes]

19:00:21 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E3.

19:01:16 <DanC_jam> D:Guus took notes on a whiteboard; welty transcribed and mailed them to Guus

19:01:16 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D4.

19:01:46 <DanC_jam> . JH: "aw come on, this isn't logic; this is stuff I can really use." [laughs]

19:03:27 * aharth wonders about "slashdotted 2003-10-21, be patient" on the scratchpad

19:03:50 <dajobe> it's quieted down now

19:04:03 <aharth> where's the story?

19:04:10 <dajobe> dajobe has changed the topic to: Semantic Web hack-n-chat http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/ latest logs http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/latest wiki http://esw.w3.org/topic/FrontPage

19:04:29 <dajobe> it's off the sonyericsson p900 story, to edd's p800 on linux page

19:04:37 <dajobe> the semweb's not on /. today

19:05:05 <aharth> ok...

19:06:20 <aharth> at least FOAF is mentioned in the blog entry :)

19:06:39 <dajobe> I'm even getting clickthroughs, since my blog's on that page

19:09:59 * DanC_jam at 26% battery

19:10:33 <aharth> you know that they have extension cords around here? (talk almost over anyways...)

19:10:39 * DanC_jam encourages other folks to write down here noteworthy stuff from jimh's talk

19:11:01 <DanC_jam> I don't see an extension cord just now, but I have seen some

19:13:47 * ericm just adds new relationship between aharth and physical

19:13:57 <DanC_jam> . JH: look at complete consistency checkers as large power tools. But what tools do most people have in their basement? a hammer, a screwdriver, a scissors ... . What are the simple tools for the semantic web?

19:14:12 <aharth> yep, made the link to the real world

19:14:46 * DanC_jam at 22% battery

19:17:52 <DanC_jam> D:I showed the ESW wiki to Welty and a few others; pointed them to [http://esw.w3.org/topic/ThingsVersusTheirNames|ThingsVersusTheirNames] and helped Welty learn to make a new one (PartWhole I think)

19:17:52 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D5.

19:18:49 <DanC_jam> . JH slide on "Semantic Information Theory"

19:19:01 * DanC_jam has been saying "information theory" and "economics" a lot lately

19:20:31 <DanC_jam> . JH: if you haven't seen http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/ , find it.

19:21:22 <DanC_jam> . JH: e.g. "fractal nature of the web" http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Fractal.html . ... small-world ... scale-free networks ...

19:21:34 <DanC_jam> . JH: we're looking at applying that to reputation... seems to work...

19:21:44 <DanC_jam> reagle calls this "google trust"

19:22:15 * DanC_jam at 15% battery... encourages bijan et. al. to continue taking notes

19:22:47 * ericm is at about 2% right now... squeezing out last bits of juice

19:22:53 <aharth> anything special about that " . JH:" thing?

19:23:07 * bijan at -34% heat tolorance....

19:24:37 <DanC-AIM> .date

19:25:14 <DanC-AIM> .date

19:26:15 <irc_> irc_ is now known as DanC-AIM_

19:26:37 <DanC-AIM_> .date

19:38:24 <sbp> no date function, just time, which includes the date

19:38:26 <sbp> .time

19:38:26 <datum> Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:38:26 GMT

19:40:11 <dajobe> logger essentially does that too when you ask for the pointer (in UTC only)

19:41:32 <mdupont> peace all you rdfig-ers

19:42:24 <mdupont> mdupont is now known as mdupont-hacking

19:58:23 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

20:27:06 * DanC_jam lent his machine to Luke McDowel to debug semantic email server.

20:27:08 <DanC_jam> way cool.

20:27:34 <DanC_jam> BLURB: Semantic Web Servicies

20:27:34 <dc_rdfig> F: Semantic Web Servicies from DanC_jam

20:27:48 <DanC_jam> F:part of [ISWC tuesday|http://iswc2003.semanticweb.org/Tuesday.htm]

20:27:48 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F1.

20:28:12 <DanC_jam> F:"The DAML-S Virtual Machine" Massimo Paolucci, Anupriya Ankolekar, Naveen Srinivasan and Katia Sycara

20:28:12 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F2.

20:28:26 <DanC_jam> F:lessons learned include 'DAML-S needs a rules language'

20:28:26 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F3.

20:28:55 <DanC_jam> F:automates the 30 page IBM tutorial on interacting with the amazon web service

20:28:55 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F4.

20:29:26 <DanC_jam> F:"despite using OWL, logic programming, etc. it's still very efficient"

20:29:26 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F5.

20:30:39 <DanC_jam> F:p 290 in the dead-trees proceedings. softcopy NOT PUBLISHED [ ARGH! ]

20:30:39 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F6.

20:31:42 <DanC_jam> F:[DAML-S virtual machine abstract|http://www.daml.ri.cmu.edu/iswc2003_abstract.html]

20:31:42 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F7.

20:33:43 <DanC_jam> . Q: how did you debug your DAML-S specification of the amazon web service?

20:34:19 <DanC_jam> . MP: er... which part? ...

20:34:30 <DanC_jam> . MP: we did some test cases

20:37:00 <DanC_jam> F:Semantic Web Challenge Awarding Event. Michel Klein, Ubbo Visser

20:37:00 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F8.

20:39:01 <DanC_jam> F:goal: apply semantic web techniques in order to build an online application that integrates, combines, and deduces information needed to assist users in performing tasks

20:39:01 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F9.

20:40:23 <jeen> F:additional info about challenge [here|http://challenge.semanticweb.org]

20:40:23 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F10.

20:42:46 <DanC_jam> F10: see [http://challenge.semanticweb.org/|What is the Semantic Web Challenge?]

20:42:46 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment F10.

20:43:11 <DanC_jam> thanks for the pointer, but pls let's avoide _here_ links

20:43:22 <jeen> good point. noted.

20:43:25 <DanC_jam> this challenge is cool...

20:44:53 * DanC_jam makes a mental note to do this sort of thing in the Best Practices IG

20:45:14 <dajobe> the what?

20:45:40 <DanC_jam> I hope there will be a Semantic Web Best Practices Interest Group before we all get old.

20:46:10 <dajobe> hmm

20:46:25 <DanC_jam> annoterra._what_? did anybody get it?

20:46:38 <DanC_jam> congrats aharth! 2nd place in the challenge!

20:46:40 <dajobe> is there consensus on Web Best Practices? or XML? Thoughts of another dya

20:47:16 <DanC_jam> I dunno if there's a consensus on best practices, but I expect it will be cost-effective to invest, at some level, in an IG

20:47:32 <dajobe> oh, I didn't realise SECO was a submission

20:47:46 <jeen> very cool. deserved winner.

20:47:59 <dajobe> who?

20:48:02 <jeen> AKT

20:48:08 <dajobe> yeah, it is cool

20:48:13 <dajobe> we had a preview

20:48:21 <DanC_jam> uh-oh... I've never even looked at any of these; this is gonna cost me several hours of investigation 1/2 ;-)

20:48:29 <mortenf> nice, congrats to all nearby

20:48:44 <dajobe> I think the submissions were all confidential till today

20:48:52 <DanC_jam>http://challenge.semanticweb.org/

20:48:52 <dc_rdfig> G: http://challenge.semanticweb.org/ from DanC_jam

20:48:53 <aharth> thanks danc

20:49:03 <DanC_jam> G:Semantic Web Challenge

20:49:04 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G1.

20:49:25 <DanC_jam> G:prizes awarded during [ISWC tuesday|http://iswc2003.semanticweb.org/Tuesday.htm]

20:49:25 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G2.

20:49:36 <jeen> there's gonna be a demonstration of most of the challenge submissions tonight I think...

20:49:56 <DanC_jam> G: AKT demoing 1st place winner...

20:49:56 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G3.

20:49:57 <dajobe> please pass on my congratulations

20:50:27 <DanC_jam> G:|Semantic Web Challenge

20:50:27 <dc_rdfig> Titled item G.

20:50:47 <aharth> yep, demonstration 7:30 to 9:30 pm, you're welcome to drop by

20:50:48 <DanC_jam> G:congrats aharth

20:50:49 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G4.

20:50:58 <DanC_jam> G:demo tonight 7:30 to 9:30pm

20:50:58 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G5.

20:52:48 * DanC_jam would appreciate a pointer to SECO

20:53:01 <aharth> seco.semanticweb.org

20:53:09 <aharth>http://seco.semanticweb.org/

20:53:09 <dc_rdfig> H: http://seco.semanticweb.org/ from aharth

20:53:10 <dajobe> the links are all from the challenge.s.o site

20:53:24 <DanC_jam> H:among the Semantic Web Challenge winners

20:53:24 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H1.

20:54:04 <DanC_jam> nmg is demoing...

20:54:36 <ji_m> ji_m is now known as grrrrr

20:54:42 <DanC_jam> G:[http://www-agki.tzi.de/swc/swc2003submissions.html|submissions] include lots of cool stuff

20:54:42 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G6.

20:55:20 * sandro is envious....

20:55:27 <DanC_jam> H:|SECO

20:55:27 <dc_rdfig> Titled item H.

20:55:38 * DanC_jam wonders if there's a better title for SECO... is it an acronym?

20:55:45 * sandro may be even a little jealous. hard to tell. :-)

20:56:41 <jeen> at a guess, it stands for Semantic Collaboration

20:56:53 <aharth> danc: you're right about the title, suggestions very welcome

20:57:20 <aharth> jeen: yep

20:58:16 * DanC_jam is jealous as all hell

20:58:50 <DanC_jam> DanC_jam is now known as DanC_RSW

20:59:30 <DanC_RSW> EricM, are you here in the challenges session?

21:00:57 <DanC_RSW> . sprk: considering "more complex ontologies" as a requirement for next year.

21:00:57 <DanC_RSW> no!

21:04:51 <DanC_RSW> F:"A Policy Based Approach to Security for the Semantic Web" Lalana Kagal, Tim Finin and Anupam Josh

21:04:51 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F11.

21:06:12 <DanC_RSW> F:p. 402 in the dead-trees proceedings.

21:06:12 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F12.

21:06:37 <dajobe> hey nmg, congrats

21:06:37 <DanC_RSW> F:RDFS + logic-like variables. *yet another rules customer*

21:06:38 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F13.

21:06:40 <mortenf> congrats nmg

21:06:40 * nmg phews

21:06:42 <nmg> thanks

21:07:02 <DanC_RSW> G:congrats nmg!

21:07:03 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G7.

21:07:31 <DanC_RSW> . spkr: "john has the right to delegate the right to revoke the right to print".

21:07:32 <DanC_RSW> cool!

21:07:38 <jeen> I must say, your little private chat with Ubo right before the announcement sort of gave it away... congrats though, well deserved.

21:07:49 <jeen> ;)

21:08:07 <nmg> heh. hard to be very clandestine.

21:08:10 <DanC_RSW> F:buzzwords include: deontic

21:08:11 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F14.

21:08:28 <DanC_RSW> F:related work includes XACML

21:08:28 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F15.

21:08:42 <DanC_RSW> F:related work includes EPAL from IBM

21:08:42 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F16.

21:09:17 <DanC_RSW> . spkr: these have the disadvantage that they use programming language-like expressiveness

21:09:22 <DanC_RSW> principle of least power again.

21:10:02 <DanC_RSW> heh! examples in the paper use N3!

21:10:38 <DanC_RSW> "we describe the rest of our examples in prolog for conciseness". heh.

21:11:11 <DanC_RSW> odd... they use rdf:subject/predicate/object to reify statements in N3, rather than {}

21:11:55 * dajobe confused - {} reify?

21:12:39 <DanC_RSW> they write: rei:oncondition [ a rdfs:statement; rdfs:subject v1; rdfs:predicate rdfs:type; rdfs:object univ:GraduateStudent].

21:12:58 <DanC_RSW> where I'd write: rei:oncondition { v1 rdf:type univ:GraduateStudent }

21:13:17 <DanC_RSW> rdfs:statement [sic]. buggy example.

21:13:42 <DanC_RSW> . meta-policies e.g. Federal policy overrides the state policy

21:14:07 * DanC_RSW puzzles over "negative modality holds for all students of UMBC"

21:15:24 <DanC_RSW> reify... I scribble about it in http://esw.w3.org/topic/LogicalReflection

21:18:17 <dajobe> my reading of http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/doc/Rules is that {} is not reification

21:18:27 <dajobe> "The curly brackets are important. They do take us out of the things we can represent using the current RDF/XML OWL specifications."

21:18:54 <DanC_RSW> {} is a different design for reifying statements from the one in the RDF specs.

21:19:20 <DanC_RSW> but {} is reification in the sense that it allows you to take statements and talk about them.

21:19:22 <dajobe> hence the long form

21:19:31 <DanC_RSW> hence?

21:20:04 <DanC_RSW> ah... you mean they stuck to standard RDF on purpose? I suppose. But then: why use N3?

21:20:06 <dajobe> longform rei:oncondition [ a rdf:statement; rdf:subject v1; rdf:predicate rdf:type; rdf:object univ:GraduateStudent].

21:20:47 <DanC_RSW> I suspect that they have requirements on reification that the RDF spec doesn't actually meet.

21:21:18 <DanC_RSW> hmm... their policy checker seems to require theorem proving in the server, not just proof checking.

21:23:08 <DanC_RSW> hmm... :x a rei:Variable... I think that has use/mention bugs

21:23:20 * DanC_RSW wonders if jos is around...

21:23:30 <DanC_RSW> jos, how do you feel about iw:Variable these days?

21:23:47 <DanC_RSW> sandro, seen recent proof output from Euler, using InferenceWeb schema?

21:24:00 <sandro> nope

21:24:30 * sandro forks off another clone to get right on it

21:25:01 <dajobe> any of your kids old enough to grok n3 yet sandro?

21:25:27 * DanC_RSW has given Brennan one lesson in python programming... a mad-libs program

21:25:45 <DanC_RSW> . spkr: "once we have a formal spec for rules, we'll use that"

21:26:00 <DanC_RSW> . spkr: we're developing an editor for rei using eclipse

21:26:49 <DanC_RSW> F:this REI stuff looks pretty cool. yet another motivation for rules.

21:26:49 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F17.

21:27:24 <skw> F: Just listening to a talk on the REI Project on "A policy based approach to Security for the Semantic Web" looks really cool.

21:27:24 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F18.

21:28:06 <DanC_RSW> now look at http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/2003/10/21/2003-10-21.html#1066768054.478234 , skw

21:28:22 <DanC_RSW> . Q/Massimo: what's the computational complexity of the policy checking?

21:28:57 <DanC_RSW> . A: good question; we haven't come accross any non-terminating cases yet, but we haven't done complexity results yet

21:29:14 <DanC_RSW> F:see [http://rei.umbc.edu|rei]

21:29:14 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F19.

21:29:20 * DanC_RSW hopes I got that right

21:29:34 <DanC_RSW> Jan W. takes the platform...

21:30:08 <DanC_RSW> F: "Prolog-based Infrastructure for RDF: Scalability and Performance" Jan Wielemaker, Guus Schreiber and Bob Wielinga. presented by Jan

21:30:08 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F20.

21:30:40 * DanC_RSW will continue to grumble about the proceedings not being freely available via HTTP for some time to come

21:31:10 <dajobe> certainly not freely available to all, at present

21:34:56 <skw> F: have discovered an HPL Tech report on REI at http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/2002/HPL-2002-270.pdf

21:34:57 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F21.

21:35:31 <skw> F: it seems that some of the work was done at HP.

21:35:31 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F22.

21:36:33 * DanC_RSW encourages skw to look at http://rdfig.xmlhack.com esp chump docs http://usefulinc.com/chump/MANUAL.txt

21:37:21 <DanC_RSW> JanW discusses perfomance tricks...

21:38:25 <DanC_RSW> F: see also [an HPL Tech report on REI|http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/2002/HPL-2002-270.pdf]

21:38:25 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F23.

21:38:33 <DanC_RSW> F23:""

21:38:34 <dc_rdfig> Deleted comment F23.

21:38:42 <DanC_RSW> F21: see also [an HPL Tech report on REI|http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/2002/HPL-2002-270.pdf]

21:38:42 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment F21.

21:41:10 <DanC_RSW> hmm... now I'm motivated to read about 5 or 10 of these papers... but I can't imagine finding time to do it. frustration!

21:42:37 <kendallclark> i'm worried about breaking my back lugging the huge proceedings book around

21:42:49 <kendallclark> it's like a bible or something

21:43:53 * skw thanks Dan for cleaning up skw's incompetent 'chumping'.

21:44:25 <DanC_RSW> JanW is quite the hack, no? if I were hiring developers for a semweb startup, he'd be high on my list.

21:44:52 <DanC_RSW> kendallclark, you're here at ISWC?

21:45:35 <DanC_RSW> more than welcome, skw.

21:45:56 <DanC_RSW> "incompetent" has such negative connotations. all contributions are good.

21:47:03 <DanC_RSW> . 'unrestricted triple editor'

21:47:27 <DanC_RSW> . 'visualization and editing RDFS and [oops; next slide]'

21:47:49 <kendallclark> DanC: yep, I'm here w/ Hendler's group, with which I work now part time.

21:48:00 <DanC_RSW> !

21:48:03 <DanC_RSW> nifty.

21:48:13 <kendallclark> well, i guess. :>

21:48:34 <kendallclark> also writing about it for xml.com -- 2 pieces in the bag so far, trying for a 3rd (maybe a little thing re: Tim's keynote) before I fly home

21:48:38 <DanC_RSW> . model-view-controller

21:48:41 <DanC_RSW> sounds like isaviz

21:48:48 <kendallclark> JanW is the bomb, imo

21:49:03 <DanC_RSW> . 'license: LGPL'

21:49:25 <DanC_RSW> frap. missed pointers to source

21:49:29 <kendallclark> is "." a shorthand for "last churn item i annotated'? that's nifty

21:49:49 <danbri_> hi kendall :)

21:50:01 <DanC_RSW> that explanation of '.' is consistent with my use, I guess...

21:50:06 <kendallclark> maybe i should implement that in my bot (release 0.1 soon)

21:50:11 <kendallclark> danbri!

21:50:19 <DanC_RSW> I dunno what it really means... sorta: I'm reporting, rather than I'm asserting

21:50:29 <kendallclark> i was just saying good things about you and FOAF to stefan decker (who seemed bored, alas)

21:50:46 <kendallclark> oh, i thought those comments were getting churned

21:51:09 <kendallclark> but that's not a bad bit of sugar for having to say :A over and over (or I guess it's A: hereabouts)

21:51:50 <kendallclark> (wow, being friendly with danbri last week, chatting w/ danc this week... soon i'll be saying nice things about w3c in print -- then where will I be?! :>)

21:51:59 <DanC_RSW> :A would be better, so it doesn't clash with Q:/A: romeo: juliet: play notation

21:52:17 <DanC_RSW> :)

21:52:43 <DanC_RSW> I think poking at W3C now and again is good and healthy.

21:53:10 * DanC_RSW watches demo...

21:53:22 <GabeW> kendallclark: then you'll have to pick on OASIS

21:53:24 <GabeW> ;-)

21:53:32 <DanC_RSW> . drag a property in tree view to make it a subproperty of another...

21:53:58 <DanC_RSW> . and it affects searches right away.

21:54:44 <jeen> such an easy trick, but very powerful.

21:54:49 * DanC_RSW notes . notation is learned from swick

21:54:53 <kendallclark> (i was trying too make the churn annotation in my new bot to be vaguely n3ish, hence moving the ":" to prefix place -- but i gave up on that goal eventually. it annoyed me.)

21:55:21 <kendallclark> GabeW: I have an endless capacity to pick on and at institutions; maybe it's OASIS's turn? :>

21:56:10 <GabeW> kendallclark: as long as its not my family, go for it!

21:56:11 <DanC_RSW> . demo concludes [applause]

21:57:02 <DanC_RSW> . Boley: can you do rules?

21:57:07 <kendallclark> GabeW: well, make sure they don't issue any standards... :>

21:57:33 <kendallclark> boley's OO RuleML thing almost made my head explode y'day

21:57:36 <GabeW> kendallclark: well, we *do* have standards about washing your hands, bedtime, etc

21:57:36 <DanC_RSW> . JanW: yes, in prolog, but that doesn't impact the RDF layer... you'd need owl(p, s, o) layered on rdf(p, s, o)

21:57:48 * GabeW guesses we shouldn't pollute DanC_RSW's logging

21:57:55 <DanC_RSW> it's not polluting

21:58:10 <kendallclark> hmm, i wouldn't have thought we were, but i will shutup if needed

21:58:45 <DanC_RSW> it's sorta the other way around: I'm borderline-abusing #rdfig by using it for my ISWC notes.

21:58:48 <kendallclark> well, 'tis over now, so it's moot

21:59:17 <DanC_RSW> but as far as I can tell, everybody's happy with using this channel for whatever is on anybody's mind.

21:59:41 <DanC_RSW> and reporting from conferences has been explicitly encouraged a few times.

21:59:59 * DanC_RSW will continue to grumble about the proceedings not being freely available via HTTP for some time to come

21:59:59 <danbri_> <dajobe> certainly not freely available to all, at present

22:00:05 <kendallclark> i was hoping to get annotea support finished to show off here, but i didn't make it -- though i'm sorta glad. Dorky little irc bots don't seem to be to academic taste.

22:00:10 <danbri_> the SW conference proceedings aren't published freely online?

22:00:13 <dajobe> danbri_: it's IP-address access controlled

22:00:17 <danbri_> oh ffs.

22:00:23 * danbri_ supresses a rant

22:00:23 <kendallclark> hmm, i didn't realize that

22:00:26 <dajobe> yes, I ranted previosuly.

22:00:41 <danbri_> my favourite buzzword has been hijacked by dork academics. I give up.

22:00:41 <dajobe> it's also a pig of a site, but anyway. back to logging

22:00:43 <kendallclark> we should dissent from that with a clever bit of wget, i think

22:00:59 <kendallclark> danb: which one? FOAF?

22:01:13 <danbri_> no, that's _next_ year.

22:01:36 <danbri_> it's an emerging standard, so I'm told :(

22:01:41 <kendallclark> i was trying to explain to stefan that FOAF was the ideal contact point between academic and web-hacker communities; but i think he wanted to crush my head like a grape

22:01:49 <JibberJim> Is FOAF not a registered trademark of Semantic Vapourware ltd?

22:02:02 <danbri_> nope

22:02:07 <dajobe> don't even go there

22:02:19 <kendallclark> i'm thinking about writing a little bashing xml.c piece explaining that this community needs to get ready to open up to web-hackers if it really wants to explode...

22:02:20 <JibberJim> A "common mark" or whatever...

22:02:20 <danbri_> Damian did a tm search yesterday, said he couldn't see anything.

22:02:36 <danbri_> it has enough use in the Internet community that hopefully we can avoid such idiocy

22:03:05 <kendallclark> danbr: you back from SF?

22:03:29 <danbri_> yup, got back bristol on sunday

22:04:06 <kendallclark> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

22:04:53 <danbri_> glad you're enjoying yourself!

22:05:07 * DanC_RSW is missing something... hijacked?

22:05:19 <kendallclark> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

22:05:28 <kendallclark> yeah, if not foaf, what have the dorks hijacked?

22:05:49 <kendallclark> they're just *mad* for "integration", but i doubt that's yr fav

22:06:36 <danbri_> I'm still trying to figure out exactly why, although I've worked on RDF/SW for 5/6 years, I felt no appeal in the SW conference whatsoever.

22:06:44 <DanC_RSW> what dorks?

22:06:47 <danbri_> It just doesn't strike me as interesting...

22:07:14 <kendallclark> yeah, i'm interested in this question of impedance mismatch between cultures that are working on the same or overlapping areas.

22:07:27 <DanC_RSW> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

22:07:48 <kendallclark> well i didn't churn it, but i forget that this channel is publicly logged.

22:08:01 <kendallclark> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

22:08:04 <dajobe> s/churn/chump/

22:08:07 * kendallclark cowers in fear

22:08:25 <kendallclark> hehe, i stand on the older usage "churn" (esp since i coined it!)

22:08:54 <danbri_> the idea of having a SW conference but not using the Web to publish the papers just strikes me as bizarre... as if the SW effort has nothing to do with the Web...

22:08:57 <dajobe> yes, but only you & I here likely know that kendallclark

22:09:07 <danbri_> you could probably bribe dajobe to hack the logs

22:09:24 <kendallclark> ooh, i'll promise to be v. nice to you for at least a week, dajobe!!

22:09:32 <kendallclark> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

22:09:35 <dajobe> since it's got my name at the bottom and the UK has the worst libel laws...

22:09:48 <danbri_> you'll have to clean up all the subsequent discussion too

22:09:51 <kendallclark> seriously, i'd be v. happy w/ it being struck :>

22:10:08 <dajobe> ok

22:10:14 <kendallclark> thx

22:10:33 * kendallclark . o O (oh, no! no dajobe tweaking for a week!!)

22:11:13 <dajobe> don't worry, I got you back already http://swfe.monkeyfist.com/

22:11:19 <kendallclark> dan: i was sorta hoping that it's a temporary embargo on publishing the proceedings on Web. God forbid it's permanent. that's really retarded.

22:11:26 <kendallclark> ruhroh...

22:11:46 <dajobe> the web&sw confs generally were ok in past

22:12:11 * danbri_ hadn't seen http://swfe.monkeyfist.com/

22:12:16 <kendallclark> indeed

22:12:17 * dajobe knows all :)

22:12:35 <kendallclark> eh, it's mainly just a place i can hang a link to #rdfig logs, since i can never remember the uri

22:12:50 <kendallclark> there's nothing there; it was for our book proposal, which got shot down hard last year

22:13:41 <DanC_RSW> BLURB: WTF!?!?! No ISWC proceedings in the web?

22:13:41 <dc_rdfig> I: WTF!?!?! No ISWC proceedings in the web? from DanC_RSW

22:13:53 <DanC_RSW> I:grumble.

22:13:54 <dc_rdfig> Added comment I1.

22:14:16 * DanC_RSW encourages others to sign the BLURB/petition

22:14:19 <danbri_> I:ditto. Who to grouch to to get this fixed?

22:14:19 <dc_rdfig> Added comment I2.

22:14:38 * DanC_RSW is happy for anybody to change the title of the blurb to something more constructive

22:15:06 * danbri_ happy with it as-is

22:15:34 <DanC_RSW> I:editors: Dieter Fensel, Katia Sycara, John Mylopoulos

22:15:35 <dc_rdfig> Added comment I3.

22:15:50 <kendallclark> I: For the amount of $$ my institution paid for me to attend ISWC, I'd *gladly* turn in my book version of the proceedings for a web version. Grump!

22:15:51 <dc_rdfig> Added comment I4.

22:16:20 <kendallclark> hmm, I suspect it's all about a relationship with Springer-Verlag. But still.

22:16:30 <dajobe> I:previous research showed they are locked behind springer-verlag's web site, with IP-based access control based on your organisation's subscription. The papers have unbookmkarkable URLs based on cookies and/or sessions and are delivered in PDF; with some missing.

22:16:30 <dc_rdfig> Added comment I5.

22:17:55 <DanC_RSW> I:yours for only $109 [http://www.springer-ny.com/detail.tpl?cart=10667746007080733&ISBN=3540203621|from springer]

22:17:56 <dc_rdfig> Added comment I6.

22:18:15 <kendallclark> hmm, i'm going to find a place to eat on this tourist trap isle

22:18:24 <kendallclark> nice chatting w/ you all

22:18:34 <kendallclark> dajobe: thx for log editing for me

22:19:43 * DanC_RSW feeling a bit rumbly in the tumbly too

22:21:22 * danbri_ writes to ISWC folks

22:24:44 * dajobe suspect it's more oversight than conspiracy

22:31:10 <drullib> hi all

22:31:51 <mortenf> hi

22:32:39 <dajobe> hi Jos

22:33:03 * JosD_ wqves to all; Hi Dajobe

22:33:15 <dajobe> I thought you were at ISWC

22:33:50 * JosD_ wondering about a pointer to JanW's work...

22:33:59 <dajobe> the swiprolog thing?

22:34:28 <drullib> can anybody help briefly explain to me the difference between rss 0.91 and 1.0 - which apparently is full of rdf:somethings?

22:34:33 <JosD_> about the talk he gave

22:35:04 <mortenf> basically, 0.9x is xml, 1.0 is rdf

22:35:53 * JosD_ feeling sad not to be at ISWS ;-(

22:36:12 <mdupont-hacking> mdupont-hacking is now known as md-afk

22:37:07 <dajobe> drullib: do you want history or answer to some more specific question?

22:37:42 <dajobe> my summary is, use new cool rss 1.0

22:37:56 <dajobe> I made this http://www.redland.opensource.ac.uk/rss/ to help

22:38:03 <drullib> well, the thing is that I'm not a 100% sure what the specific question would be

22:38:41 <drullib> can I not use xslt to translate rdf then?

22:38:46 <mortenf> put another (loaded) way: 0.9x is standalone, 1.0 is part of the (semantic) web

22:38:56 <mortenf> no, xslt is not good for rdf

22:39:01 <dajobe> rubbish

22:39:03 * JosD_ think DanC triggered me with his question about iw:Variable; our usage is perhaps too context dependent; lack better design though...

22:39:08 <mortenf> :)

22:39:15 <dajobe> logger, pointer

22:39:15 <dajobe> See http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2003-10-21#T22-39-15

22:39:21 <dajobe> that url was made via xslt from rdf

22:39:32 <dajobe> anyway

22:39:58 <drullib> is there any way I can see the xslt, as an example?

22:40:00 <mortenf> yes, for specific serializations

22:40:10 <dajobe> like all xslt, it's pretty write-only

22:41:01 <dajobe> but if you like: http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/irclogs.xsl

22:41:31 <dajobe> like any xml<>xml solution, it's specific for the source and dest formats

22:42:03 <dajobe> most people just use some other tool to make their rss or rdf. It's in most every handy language toolkit

22:42:04 <mortenf> yeah ok, that's a good way to put it

22:42:42 * DanC_RSW looks around for ericm

22:43:07 * DanC_RSW waves to jos

22:43:23 <drullib> this is all starting to make slightly more sense to me than it did just before

22:44:02 <dajobe> oh good

22:44:14 * JosD_ waves to DanC and feeling again sad not to be there...

22:44:30 <dajobe> drullib: you might try http://www.xml.com/lpt/a/2002/12/18/dive-into-xml.html and nearby for more. The book's good too

22:45:05 <dajobe> although "rss2" isn't going to be much good round here

22:45:38 <DanC_RSW> BLURB: getting into RSS the Semantic-Web-friendly way

22:45:39 <dc_rdfig> J: getting into RSS the Semantic-Web-friendly way from DanC_RSW

22:45:43 <DanC_RSW> logger, pointer?

22:45:43 <DanC_RSW> See http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2003-10-21#T22-45-43

22:45:57 <DanC_RSW> J:see [http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2003-10-21#T22-45-43|notes] from dajobe, mortenf, etc.

22:45:58 <dc_rdfig> Added comment J1.

22:47:22 <eaon_> eaon_ is now known as eaon

22:51:10 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

22:53:04 * DanC_RSW gives up on trying to find ericm via #rdfig, wanders off to find grub...

22:55:14 <timbl-ma> timbl-ma is now known as timbl-ca-us

22:59:32 * JosD_ SemWaves to TimBL ;-)

23:00:25 * timbl-ca-us waves back to Jos

23:01:30 <drullib> Thanks for your help

23:01:40 <drullib> I'm a lot closer to understanding what's going on now

23:04:13 <GabeW> grumble

23:09:19 <dajobe> bye

23:10:31 * JosD_ gotta leave and check my son who got a concussion today (while swimming, he hit the wall...)

23:21:44 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

23:49:04 <jordan> is it permissible for a bnode to be both an rdfs:Clas~DSFDSFFDS"VB B"

23:57:15 <jordan> is it permissible for a bnode to be both an rdfs:CLass an an OWL:Class?