Semantic Web Interest Group IRC Chat Logs for 2003-10-23

00:24:46 <mdupont> mdupont is now known as md-zzz

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02:15:18 * chaalsBRS waves ...

02:21:46 <sbp> hi there chaals

02:21:52 <sbp> just the guy I wanted to speak to!

02:22:02 <sbp> you have an error in your FOAF file, http://www.w3.org/People/Charles/foaf.rdf

02:22:15 <sbp> you've listed Karima Boudaoud as knowing me

02:22:22 <sbp> which confused me quite a bit

02:22:29 <sbp> I think there's a missing </foaf:knows> in there

02:22:49 <sbp> cool utf-8, btw

02:27:13 <danbri_> we'll have to arrange for you to meet Karima

02:28:28 <sbp> hehe

02:28:36 <sbp> interesting way to fix a FOAF file

02:29:32 <danbri_> the Right Way, imho.

02:29:44 <danbri_> re-arrange the world around its description.

02:30:00 <sbp> yeah

02:30:12 <sbp> I should start adding foaf:knows arcs to my FOAF file at random

02:30:30 <sbp> and when the people email me asking what on earth's up, saying that they don't know me, I can just say "well, you do now"

02:30:35 <mattmcc> Now if only that worked for foaf:workplaceHomepage.

02:30:41 <sbp> heh, heh

02:30:42 <danbri_> :)

02:33:11 <d8uv> Hello.

02:38:49 <sbp> howdy

02:39:07 <danbri_> hi

02:39:10 * sbp goes off to find balsa-wood

02:39:15 * danbri_ & # belated zzz

02:39:25 <sbp> 'night danbri

02:39:26 <danbri_> is that some new sleep metaphor, or have you taken to late night wordwork?

02:39:47 * sbp wonders if danbri counts foaf:Sheep instances

02:39:54 <sbp> heh. nope, it's a small joke with d8uv

02:39:56 * danbri_ counts timezones

02:40:03 <sbp> .time +1

02:40:03 <datum> Thu, 23 Oct 2003 03:40:03 +1

02:40:49 <d8uv> So yeah. sbp is about to know me soon.

02:41:00 <d8uv> It's just a matter of time.

02:41:20 * danbri_ discovers d8uv.com, files for post-sleep reading

02:41:43 <sbp> yeah. the FOAF world lagging behind the real-world is almost unheard of

02:46:40 * kendallclark digs his new flaming lips screeen saver

03:34:42 <chaalsBRS> howdy sbp

03:34:59 <chaalsBRS> (and uncle tom cobbeleigh and all)

03:37:08 <WillWare> .time -4

03:37:09 <datum> Wed, 22 Oct 2003 23:37:09 -4

03:54:21 <WillWare> Is there anything like FOAF, but for family relationships (parents, kids, uncles, cousins, etc) and big life events (births, marriages, graduations, deaths, etc)?

03:57:50 <mattmcc> Well, one possibility is http://www.perceive.net/schemas/20021119/relationship/

04:03:38 <WillWare> Thanks, that's a start. It'd be interesting to do something that would be useful for geneologies and family histories and whatnot. There'd need to be a notation for dates I guess, and I assume there must be, I'm just not familiar with it.

04:06:42 <WillWare> It looks like Dublin Core has a suitable date thing (yyyy-mm-dd).

04:07:41 <mattmcc> There's also RDF Calendar. :)

04:09:34 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

04:29:08 <chaalsBRS> you'd want RDF calendar to record particular events, i suspect.

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11:57:34 <irc_> irc_ is now known as DanC-AIM_

11:58:23 <DanC-AIM_> .time

11:58:23 <datum> Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:58:23 GMT

12:23:30 <libby> .time

12:23:30 <datum> Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:23:30 GMT

12:40:27 * DanC_jam waves

12:40:37 <DanC-AIM_> byebye

12:40:48 <DanC_jam> DanC_jam is now known as Danc_RSW

13:03:16 * Danc_RSW gets set up in the sundial room with 110v

13:09:32 <Danc_RSW>http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/swsig/

13:09:33 <dc_rdfig> A: http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/swsig/ from Danc_RSW

13:09:44 <Danc_RSW> A:|Semantic Web Services Interest Group

13:09:45 <dc_rdfig> Titled item A.

13:11:00 <Danc_RSW> A:|W3C Semantic Web Services Interest Group

13:11:00 <dc_rdfig> Titled item A.

13:11:14 <Danc_RSW> A:brand new.

13:11:14 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A1.

13:12:20 <Danc_RSW> A1:part of the [http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/|Web Services Activity] as of today

13:12:20 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment A1.

13:14:01 <kao> ah. i was wondering why you call something from 2002 "brand new".

13:15:04 <Danc_RSW> don't read too much into the URI

13:15:30 <kao> yes, i know, from an RDF perspecive its just a string of bytes :-)

13:15:53 <Danc_RSW>http://iswc2003.semanticweb.org/Thursday.htm

13:15:54 <dc_rdfig> B: http://iswc2003.semanticweb.org/Thursday.htm from Danc_RSW

13:16:12 <Danc_RSW> B:|ISWC 2003 Program, Thursday

13:16:12 <dc_rdfig> Titled item B.

13:16:22 <Danc_RSW> B:joint with K-CAP

13:16:22 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B1.

13:17:05 <Danc_RSW> B:morning session in sundial room: Applications and Tools

13:17:05 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B2.

13:17:20 <Danc_RSW> BLURB: Haystack: A Platform for Authoring End User Semantic Web Applications

13:17:21 <dc_rdfig> C: Haystack: A Platform for Authoring End User Semantic Web Applications from Danc_RSW

13:17:36 <Danc_RSW> C:Dennis Quan, David Huynh and David R. Karger. Quan presenting

13:17:36 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C1.

13:18:27 <Danc_RSW> C:hmm... Dennis is at IBM these days.

13:18:27 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C2.

13:18:57 <Danc_RSW> C:"a deep technical talk should start with a horrible oversimplification of the problem" ;-)

13:18:58 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C3.

13:20:08 <Danc_RSW> . can't assume users have done ontological training nor a philosophy class on The Matrix. [laughs]

13:20:56 <Danc_RSW> C:p. 738 in the dead-trees ISWC 2003 proceedings

13:20:57 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C4.

13:22:39 <Danc_RSW> B:see also [http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2003-10-23.html#T13-15-53|irc notes], toward [http://esw.w3.org/topic/ConnectingAudiences|ConnectingAudiences]

13:22:40 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B3.

13:22:58 <Danc_RSW> . discoverability - don't want reading the manual to be necessary

13:36:26 <Danc_RSW> C:applications: bioinformatics

13:36:26 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C5.

13:36:53 <Danc_RSW> C5: application: bioninformatics. LSID servers serve up RDF metadata for biological objects

13:36:53 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment C5.

13:37:25 <Danc_RSW> C:"we use urn:lsid:...". hmm

13:37:25 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C6.

13:37:44 * Danc_RSW looks up lsid in the URN scheme registry...

13:38:27 <Danc_RSW> C:haystack is integrated with eclipse to some extent

13:38:27 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C7.

13:40:11 <eaon> zoe in rdf - hmmm

13:42:22 <Danc_RSW> C:hmm.. no lsid among [http://uri.net/urn-nid-status.html|URN namespaces registered and applied for]. seems to be a case of [http://esw.w3.org/topic/UriSpaceSquatting|UriSpaceSquatting]

13:42:22 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C8.

13:44:06 <Danc_RSW> C:implemented on Java 2 version 1.4. open source. runs on windows, linux, mac os x.

13:44:07 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C9.

13:44:31 <Danc_RSW> C:on the "grandma to guru" scale, we're getting there, but still require some expertise

13:44:31 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C10.

13:46:08 <Danc_RSW> C:url slide: [Dennis Quan|http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/dquan/], [http://haystack.lcs.mit.edu|haystack project], [IBM LSID|http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/oss/lsid/]

13:46:09 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C11.

13:46:34 <Danc_RSW> . Q: google works because it's integrated into their existing experience... what do you think about augmenting COTS tools rather than having your own?

13:47:03 <Danc_RSW> . A: we've been thinking about that a lot... that's why we're using eclipse

13:47:17 <Danc_RSW> . Q: can collections be done by query rather than user enumeration?

13:47:18 <Danc_RSW> . A: yes

13:48:13 <Danc_RSW> BLURB: Mangrove: Enticing Ordinary People onto the Semantic Web via InstantGratification

13:48:14 <dc_rdfig> D: Mangrove: Enticing Ordinary People onto the Semantic Web via InstantGratification from Danc_RSW

13:48:26 <Danc_RSW> D:Luke McDowell, Oren Etzioni, Steven Gribble, Alon Halevy, Henry Levy, William Pentney, Deepak Verma, Stani Vlasseva

13:48:32 <Danc_RSW> D:presented by McDowell

13:48:37 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D1.

13:48:38 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D2.

13:50:00 <Danc_RSW> D:I was able to give this a try yesterday: [http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-calendar/2003Oct/0007.html|meeting scheduling gizmo] to www-rdf-calendar

13:50:00 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D3.

13:52:00 <Danc_RSW> D:p 754 in the dead-trees ISWC 2003 proceedings

13:52:07 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D4.

13:55:02 * Danc_RSW is kinda bummed that nobody else is sharing their notes. I know they're taking them.

13:55:50 <Danc_RSW> D:annotation tool shows a web page; you highlight some text then choose a property

13:55:51 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D5.

13:55:59 <Danc_RSW> hmm... what's the subject of that property?

13:56:21 <Danc_RSW> and how is the web page modified? what do they do about EmbeddingRDFinHTML?

13:57:01 <Danc_RSW> . when you submit your page for parsing, the feedback includes information about which services consumed the data, with a link to the results

13:58:16 <Danc_RSW> D:static version of who's who page rotted thru disuse, but with mangrove automation, we have lively data.

13:58:16 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D6.

13:59:01 <Danc_RSW> hmm... is who's who public? I'd expect people to share more in a group-confidential setting

13:59:24 <Danc_RSW> D:back-end database based on Jena

13:59:24 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D7.

14:01:33 <swh> Im in the web services secity talk

14:01:51 <swh> there using most specifi matches to find "best" security model

14:01:52 <swh> neat

14:02:13 <Danc_RSW> BLURB: Security for DAML Web Services: Annotation and Matchmaking

14:02:13 <dc_rdfig> E: Security for DAML Web Services: Annotation and Matchmaking from Danc_RSW

14:02:26 <Danc_RSW> E:Grit Denker, Lalana Kagal, Tim Finin, Massimo Paolucci and Katia Sycara

14:02:27 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E1.

14:02:30 <Danc_RSW> that one, right, skw?

14:03:18 <Danc_RSW> . "we spend lots of time in email. in fact, if history is any guide, there are some members of the audience checking email as I speak"

14:03:23 <Danc_RSW> [laughs]

14:03:39 <swh> Danc_RSW: yes, thats the one

14:04:09 <swh> there using a DAML-S/UDDI mathcmaker

14:04:14 <swh> but i missed where from

14:04:19 <Danc_RSW> ah

14:05:24 <Danc_RSW> D:applications include meeting scheduling ("telcon tiddlywinks, as I call it"). presentation elaborates "balanced potluck" scenario

14:05:24 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D8.

14:06:19 <Danc_RSW> D:see [WebDB2003] for formal model, theorems

14:06:20 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D9.

14:08:38 <kendallclark> Danc_RSW: do you know if tim's slides from his talk today will be on web?

14:08:41 <swh> question (stuart middleton_: have you considered social aspects

14:09:08 <Danc_RSW> umm...

14:09:24 <swh> answer: not yet

14:09:53 <swh> SM: eg. external verification

14:09:54 <dc_rdfig> Label SM not found.

14:10:14 <Danc_RSW> eventually, kendallclark, but he's flying a lot this week, so probably not as of the talk itself

14:11:03 <kendallclark> i ask because i'm gonna try to write another xml.c piece today and wanted to talk about tim's talk -- i've got a new laptop on which i type slowly, so i'm unlikely to be able to take good notes while he's talking

14:12:06 <kendallclark> no biggie, if not.

14:12:20 <Danc_RSW> this mangrove talk is another where "annotation" is used in the 1st-party formalization sense. I guess I'll have to get used to it.

14:12:49 * Danc_RSW has to read "xml.c" twice to realize it's not a C program

14:12:57 <kendallclark> heh

14:13:03 <kendallclark> i'm lazy

14:13:09 <swh> now we have "Trust Management for the Semantic Web"

14:13:18 <swh> what is xml.c ifi ts not a c prog?

14:13:26 <kendallclark> xml.com

14:13:31 <Danc_RSW> BLURB: Trust Management for the Semantic Web

14:13:31 <dc_rdfig> F: Trust Management for the Semantic Web from Danc_RSW

14:13:32 <kendallclark> one of those pesky web site thingies

14:13:33 <swh> Matthew Richardson presenting

14:13:49 <Danc_RSW> F:Matthew Richardson, Rakesh Agrawal and Pedro Domingos

14:13:50 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F1.

14:13:50 <swh> U washington

14:15:04 <swh> talking about web of trust

14:17:05 <Danc_RSW> . Q(DanC): is all your data public? or is the Who's Who group-confidential?

14:17:49 <Danc_RSW> . A: it's all public. privacy would be interesting to look at, but our users have participated without it, so far.

14:19:17 <Danc_RSW> . Q(?): I like the focus on untrained users, but... how low do you go? some folks keep all their email in their inbox; they don't bother to use folders.

14:19:23 <swh> Importnat points: personalisation, need only local information, robust to maliciousness

14:19:38 <Danc_RSW> . A: [something about AOL...]. Folks will do some work if there's reward/motivation.

14:20:21 <swh> path algebra: concatentation and aggregation

14:21:26 <Danc_RSW> swh, if anything about that talk seems particularly nifty, put a F: in front, and it'll go into the weblog. http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/

14:21:40 <swh> Danc_RSW: ok, cheers

14:22:09 <Danc_RSW> (projection trouble here)

14:22:27 <swh> im having to split my attention :(

14:23:25 <jeen> danc to the rescue...

14:24:51 <Danc_RSW> usb flash disk and .pdf to the rescue...

14:25:50 <swh> F: Inspired by Page Rank

14:25:50 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F2.

14:26:28 <swh> f: equates trust with movement potential between web pages

14:26:32 <swh> F: equates trust with movement potential between web pages

14:26:32 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F3.

14:27:00 <swh> F3: equates trust with potential movement between web pages

14:27:01 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment F3.

14:27:05 <swh> hmm.. better

14:27:38 <swh> needs only neighbours merged beliefs... seems unlikly

14:28:57 <swh> F: Says that probabalistic method (pagerank like) is equivalent to path algebra

14:28:58 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F4.

14:30:15 <Danc_RSW> (projection trouble resolved)

14:30:27 * Danc_RSW wonders why the guy doesn't use full-screen mode

14:31:12 <kendallclark> i'm ready to go home and not be very "semantic" for a while

14:31:24 <jeen> i think it's because the projector only shows part of his screen

14:31:46 <swh> F: Took data from Epinions (1st 5000 users)

14:31:47 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F5.

14:32:21 <swh> ...but then generated synthetic data (dont know why)

14:32:33 <libby_> libby_ is now known as libby

14:37:34 <Danc_RSW> part of screen: ah.

14:38:02 <swh> F: online example http://www.bibserve.org/

14:38:02 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F6.

14:38:18 <swh> F: uses techniques on bibtex entries

14:38:18 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F7.

14:38:27 * Danc_RSW looks at updating http://www.w3.org/Addressing/ which is really, really, badly out of date

14:38:43 <Danc_RSW> F6:see [online example|http://www.bibserve.org/]

14:38:43 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment F6.

14:39:39 <Danc_RSW> . "sound -- modulo closed world assumption"

14:39:55 <Danc_RSW> . "often useful to assume/not require explicit closure in practice"

14:39:56 <Danc_RSW> sigh.

14:40:11 <swh> Danc_RSW: wiki?

14:44:35 <swh> Q(FvH): very little semantics

14:47:07 <swh> . Q(?): how do you combat link spamming

14:47:29 <swh> . A: unluess the flase persona are trusted they will not be counted (bad summary, sory)

15:12:38 <Danc_RSW> ok, whaddya think of http://www.w3.org/Addressing/ $Date: 2003/10/23 15:11:21 $ ?

15:13:42 <deusx> deusx is now known as _deusx

15:14:28 <_deusx> _deusx is now known as deusx

15:16:36 <mctx> tes

15:21:44 <nernst> nernst is now known as nernst-kcap

15:43:28 <Danc_RSW> . seanb: I'm gonna start with the conclusions; then you can all do your email for 20 min. [laughs]

15:43:51 <Danc_RSW>http://sourceforge.net/projects/owlapi

15:43:51 <dc_rdfig> G: http://sourceforge.net/projects/owlapi from Danc_RSW

15:45:03 <Danc_RSW> G:|OWL API sourceforge project

15:45:03 <dc_rdfig> Titled item G.

15:46:27 <Danc_RSW> G:presented at ISWC 2003. "Cooking the Semantic Web with the OWL API" p 659 in the dead-trees ISWC 2003 proceedings

15:46:27 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G1.

15:48:13 <Danc_RSW> G:did anybody get that "what species am I" URL? SeanB offered a "whole bottle" (airplane size) of scotch whiskey to anybody who could download his code and check that file during his talk.

15:48:14 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G2.

15:49:21 <sbp> ooh

15:49:44 <Danc_RSW> F6:""

15:49:45 <dc_rdfig> Deleted comment F6.

15:50:05 * sbp waits patiently for the URI

15:50:06 <nmg> I didn't get it, and I can't find it on the wonderweb website

15:51:06 * Danc_RSW considers interrupting to get the URI

15:51:31 <nmg>http://wonderweb.semanticweb.org/owl/

15:51:32 <Danc_RSW> G:"you can do OIL in emacs, but I don't recommend it." with nxml-mode, it's *much* less horrible

15:51:32 <dc_rdfig> H: http://wonderweb.semanticweb.org/owl/ from nmg

15:51:33 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G3.

15:51:38 <sbp> at the very least, perhaps I could persuade DanC to call SeanB SeanBech or something

15:51:55 <nmg> H: OWL at WonderWeb, including link to the OWL Species Validator

15:51:55 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H1.

15:52:07 <Danc_RSW> .. /owl/whatSpeciesAmI.rdf

15:52:17 <sbp> thanks!

15:53:26 <Danc_RSW> G2:SeanB offered a "whole bottle" (airplane size) of scotch whiskey to anybody who could download his code and check [http://wonderweb.semanticweb.org/owl/whatSpeciesAmI.rdf|that file] during his talk.

15:53:26 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment G2.

15:53:42 <nmg> it's OWL DL

15:53:49 * sbp runs hoot over it, but doesn't expect a result by next week

15:53:54 <nmg> sorry, no, OWL Full

15:54:41 <sbp> heh

15:54:47 <sbp> I got DL

15:54:53 <sbp> [[[

15:54:53 <sbp> $ time python hoot.py http://wonderweb.semanticweb.org/owl/whatSpeciesAmI.rdf

15:54:54 <sbp> DL

15:54:54 <sbp> real 1m11.269s

15:54:54 <sbp> user 0m0.000s

15:54:54 <sbp> sys 0m0.000s

15:54:56 <sbp> ]]]

15:55:06 <nmg> man is both class and individual, apparently

15:55:13 <nmg> according the sean's species validator

15:55:22 <nmg> other sean, that is ;)

15:56:00 <Danc_RSW> it's cheating to use the online validator. the challenge was to do it using the code from sourceforge

15:56:13 <sbp> ah, so it is

15:56:18 * Danc_RSW notes the abiguity of "sean" in this context

15:56:18 * sbp kicks hoot, and the OWL tests

15:58:25 <sbp> northern Sean and southern Sean, perhaps. or Bechy and Palmy

15:58:38 <sbp> OWL Sean and N3 Sean

15:58:46 <sbp> though they're both me

15:59:47 * sbp has code to write...

15:59:52 <sbp> hope you're having fun in FL

16:03:46 <Danc_RSW> . "locality issues" slide seems to be re-inventing rdfs:isDefinedBy

16:04:58 <nmg> yep, online cod

16:05:21 <nmg> yep, code from sourceforge does the job too (as I expected it would)

16:05:28 <nmg> prebuilt binaries work fine

16:06:01 <jeen> right, you got it first then. I had to debug the script to run on Solaris first :/

16:06:24 <nmg> I had to open a connection back home to run it on a linux box (I'm on windows here)

16:06:29 <jeen> same here :)

16:07:28 * Danc_RSW nominates nmg for the "whole bottle" prize

16:07:35 <jeen> +1

16:07:56 * nmg is willing to share it...

16:08:32 <Danc_RSW> G:"related work: Jena. RDF-centric view of the world."

16:08:33 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G4.

16:08:56 <Danc_RSW> G:... as opposed to 'ontology level objects'

16:08:57 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G5.

16:09:41 <Danc_RSW> H:|OWL at Wonderweb

16:09:41 <dc_rdfig> Titled item H.

16:10:00 <Danc_RSW> G:so this is an OWL-DL view

16:10:01 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G6.

16:10:38 <Danc_RSW> G:after one week, among the top 1000 sourceforge downloads

16:10:38 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G7.

16:11:06 <Danc_RSW> nmg, aren't you going to claim the prize?

16:11:34 <nmg> oops, got sidetracked uising it to debug my own owl ontologies ;)

16:11:45 <Danc_RSW> :)

16:14:08 <Danc_RSW> nmg claims the prize!

16:14:25 <Danc_RSW> jeen reports solaris trouble

16:15:33 <jeen> it's a minor thing really, the script determines the classpath seperator based on output from uname, but doesn't have a case for solaris

17:05:09 <dajobe>http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/10/22/iswc.html

17:05:10 <dc_rdfig> I: http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/10/22/iswc.html from dajobe

17:05:23 <dajobe> I:|Commercializing the Semantic Web

17:05:23 <dc_rdfig> Titled item I.

17:05:37 <dajobe> I:Kendall Grant Clark (XML.com) reports on ISWC ontology conference

17:05:37 <dc_rdfig> Added comment I1.

17:13:17 <nernst>http://chiselog.chisel.cs.uvic.ca/blog/2

17:13:17 <dc_rdfig> J: http://chiselog.chisel.cs.uvic.ca/blog/2 from nernst

17:13:33 <nernst> J:some notes on the KCAP workshop on Neil Ernst's blog

17:13:33 <dc_rdfig> Added comment J1.

17:14:32 <dajobe>http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/10/23/iswc.html

17:14:32 <dc_rdfig> K: http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/10/23/iswc.html from dajobe

17:14:37 <dajobe> K:|More kendall, more ISWC

17:14:37 <dc_rdfig> Titled item K.

17:15:41 <dajobe> K:he's seemed to have missed that this week, the perl CPAN people started working on their RDF mechanisms

17:15:41 <dc_rdfig> Added comment K1.

17:18:48 <nernst> nernst is now known as nernst-kcap

17:20:45 <darobin> K:In fact CPAN has been supporting RDF exports for quite a while, they just weren't too heavily publicised

17:20:45 <dc_rdfig> Added comment K2.

17:23:12 <dajobe> K:I noticed a RDF/YAML thing enter CPAN in the last few days. What's that all about?

17:23:12 <dc_rdfig> Added comment K3.

17:23:57 <dajobe>http://search.cpan.org/~autrijus/RDF-YAML-0.11/

17:23:58 <dc_rdfig> L: http://search.cpan.org/~autrijus/RDF-YAML-0.11/ from dajobe

17:24:03 <dajobe> L:|Perl RDF::YAML 0.11

17:24:03 <dc_rdfig> Titled item L.

17:24:17 <dajobe> L:*Simple RDF/YAML parser and serialiser*

17:24:17 <dc_rdfig> Added comment L1.

17:24:28 <dajobe> L:that seems to be en-uk, not en-us

17:24:28 <dc_rdfig> Added comment L2.

17:24:58 <darobin> it's RDF in YAML format

17:25:05 <dajobe> I know

17:25:17 <darobin> oh

17:25:37 * darobin was answering "What's that all about?"

17:26:01 * dajobe could do "RDF::YAML" =~ s/::/ in / himself :)

17:29:44 <darobin> :)

17:30:02 <darobin> some people don't know about YAML

17:51:44 <mctx> Yolanda asked a wicked question about enrico's use of models for ui - to the point they didn't work in the 90's and they were expensive to boot, so whhy use these now?

17:56:47 <nernst-kcap> and there was no real answer...

17:57:04 <nernst-kcap> except that the models might provide other functions that people use

17:57:09 <mctx> other than "i have no defence to that question"

17:57:41 <nernst-kcap> the problem of keeping the model constant, esp for complex software systems, seems large

17:57:53 <nernst-kcap> SENG research has been trying to do this for years

17:58:06 <mctx> for the UI case?

17:58:30 <nernst-kcap> just trying to keep a constant meta-model of a software system

17:59:20 <nernst-kcap> mctx: you worked with BIll Wadge right?

18:00:29 <mctx> yes. what a small world

18:00:59 <reagleBRKLN> anyone know of a library, web service, or some such thing which real return a bibtex result for a title query?

18:01:29 <nernst-kcap> as in, no work required manually to get the bibtex

18:01:33 <nernst-kcap> ?

18:01:40 <swh> nernst-kcap: citeseer?

18:02:08 <nernst-kcap> it has some rough forms of bibtex, often incomplete

18:02:29 <nernst-kcap> try http://liinwww.ira.uka.de/bibliography/index.html

18:02:59 <reagleBRKLN> ah, yes, but this isn't specific to CS

18:03:36 <reagleBRKLN> seems like it's something any library should be able to do...

18:03:55 <nernst-kcap> yeah, would make my life a lot easier

18:04:10 <kendallclark> well, if you wrote a marc->bibtex service, you do could do some easy composition.

18:04:29 <kendallclark> most uni libraries make marc records of holding items available on web

18:04:47 <reagleBRKLN> example? (give me an actual library?)

18:05:26 <swh> parsing binary MARC recronds is a pain.

18:05:32 <swh> *records

18:05:35 <nernst-kcap> doesn't marc require licencing too?

18:05:56 <kendallclark> i didn't think marc was so hard to parse, and i wasn't dealing with binary, iirc

18:05:58 <swh> nernst-kcap: it uses a complicated binary format, but I think there are free impementations

18:06:13 <kendallclark> but there is java xml<->marc code around freely (lib of congress has it, iirc)

18:06:20 <swh> kendallclark: you have to know what marc format it is or you acnt unambiguously parse it

18:07:08 * reagleBRKLN dreams of a bibtex return...

18:07:17 <swh> bibtex = good

18:07:21 <dajobe> I found a bibtex to rdf thing today

18:07:35 <dajobe>http://www.cs.vu.nl/~mcaklein/bib2rdf/

18:07:36 <dc_rdfig> M: http://www.cs.vu.nl/~mcaklein/bib2rdf/ from dajobe

18:07:43 <dajobe> M:|BibTex-2-RDF

18:07:43 <dc_rdfig> Titled item M.

18:08:06 <reagleBRKLN> ah, ok, so here's a cite

18:08:07 <reagleBRKLN>http://catalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=1&ti=1,1&Search_Arg=Dictionary+of+the+Social+Sciences%0D%0A&Search_Code=TALL&PID=20166&CNT=25&SEQ=20031023140741&SID=1

18:08:07 <dc_rdfig> N: http://catalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=1&ti=1,1&Search_Arg=Dictionary+of+the+Social+Sciences%0D%0A&Search_Code=TALL&PID=20166&CNT=25&SEQ=20031023140741&SID=1 from reagleBRKLN

18:08:14 <reagleBRKLN> here's the MARC http://catalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v4=1&ti=1,1&SEQ=20031023140752&Search_Arg=Dictionary+of+the+Social+Sciences%0D%0A&Search_Code=TALL&PID=20166&CNT=25&SID=1

18:08:35 <reagleBRKLN> now I just need to find a converter

18:09:11 <kendallclark> melvyl.cdlib.org gives marc records

18:09:18 <kendallclark> as i said, most big research unis do

18:09:22 <kendallclark> finding one is pretty trivial

18:09:30 <dajobe> doesn't amazon give you marc too?

18:09:32 <reagleBRKLN> useful page... http://wwwsearch.sourceforge.net/bib/openbib.html

18:09:58 <reagleBRKLN> amazon gives me XML, which I can query via their web service

18:10:00 <kendallclark> (oh, my bad: melvyl.cdlib.org doesn't give you raw marc trivially...)

18:10:17 <dajobe> I'm sure I saw it on their (HTML) amazon site

18:10:17 <kendallclark> i don't think amazon gives marc records

18:10:32 <kendallclark> that woudl be awesome if they do

18:10:35 <reagleBRKLN> yea, and they don't have journals and s uch

18:10:46 <dajobe> bloody eck, did www.amazon.com give me a web search?

18:11:30 <Danc_RSW> this speaker is very animated, but he doesn't vary his dynamics.

18:11:39 <Danc_RSW> it's kinda stressful.

18:11:53 <reagleBRKLN> drats, sixpack doesn't do marc

18:12:14 * Danc_RSW scrolls up to investigate why folks are interested in marc...

18:12:27 <reagleBRKLN> amazon service: http://goatee.net/2003/04#_16we

18:15:09 <nernst-kcap> boy this room is packed now

18:15:33 <dajobe> thursdays are always big

18:15:39 <kendallclark> danc: reagle looking for a library that gives bibtex; i suggested doing a bit of service comp by using a marc->bibtex converter :>

18:16:00 * kendallclark out of laptop power...

18:16:24 <kendallclark> so i guess writing about tim's talk is spoiled by... apple! :>

18:16:25 * kendallclark off

18:16:30 * Danc_RSW ran out of power enough early in the week that he knew to get a 110v connection early before timbl's talk

18:16:54 <Danc_RSW> anybody see timbl?

18:17:33 <Danc_RSW> (some folks see him via rendezvous)

18:17:53 <mctx> tim is in the building - according to ichat on rendezvous, mac osx

18:18:41 <mctx> he's showing up as online - doh, now his computer's blipped out

18:18:56 <kendallclark> (ah, the joys of an empty overflow room!)

18:19:40 <Danc_RSW> yeah, I knew he was in the building..

18:20:04 <jeen> there he is.

18:20:12 <kendallclark> heh, no one doing rendezvous editing...

18:20:23 <kendallclark> no one but me, i should say

18:20:36 <dajobe> that's cute, amazon lets you search inside all their book content now

18:20:41 <kendallclark> wow, dieter brags about that matrix thingie...

18:20:42 <Danc_RSW> . DF: we also had the longest dinner speech ever. [laughs]

18:21:08 <Danc_RSW> . Frank vH presents about ISWC2004

18:21:22 <kendallclark> where is 2004 gonna be?

18:21:32 <swh> hiroshima

18:21:32 <mctx> hiroshima

18:21:37 <kendallclark> neat

18:21:46 * kendallclark can't read the screen in overflow

18:21:52 <nernst-kcap> world consists of Europe, USA, and Japan

18:21:54 <Danc_RSW> connection refused, though not "domain not found" at iswc2004.semanticweb.org

18:21:56 <mctx> no direct flights

18:22:12 <kendallclark> i wanna go to LA or Africa, personally

18:22:18 <Danc_RSW> program committee co-chairs: McIlraith, Plexousakis

18:22:23 <kendallclark> (for an iswc, i mean)

18:22:39 <Danc_RSW> local organizing committee chair: Riichiro Mizoguchi

18:22:47 <Danc_RSW> BLURB: ISWC2004

18:22:48 <dc_rdfig> O: ISWC2004 from Danc_RSW

18:23:00 <Danc_RSW> O:Hiroshima, Japan, 7-11 Nov 2004

18:23:01 <dc_rdfig> Added comment O1.

18:23:16 <Danc_RSW> "Where is Japan?" slide. [laughs]

18:23:31 <kendallclark> I met Mizoguchi the other day. Nice fellow.

18:24:04 <Danc_RSW> cool zoom in: world map, japan map, photo of conference hotel

18:24:13 <jeen> he missed his calling, he should have been a travel promotor...

18:24:46 <kendallclark> he's hilarious

18:26:44 <jeen> tim takes the stand

18:27:00 <Danc_RSW>http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/1023-iswc-tbl/

18:27:01 <dc_rdfig> P: http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/1023-iswc-tbl/ from Danc_RSW

18:27:20 <Danc_RSW> P:to appear. (404)

18:27:20 <dc_rdfig> Added comment P1.

18:27:30 <kendallclark> you tease!

18:27:32 <nmg> danc: I was just about to ask about that...

18:27:35 <Danc_RSW> P:|SW status and direction

18:27:35 <dc_rdfig> Titled item P.

18:28:23 <Danc_RSW> . timbl: this is much like 10 years ago... 1st web conference was oversubscribed like this.

18:29:37 <Danc_RSW> . timbl: I was here in FL end of last week, then in BOS and CA, and now I'm back. so this is a bit random

18:30:18 <Danc_RSW> . timbl: congrats to all involved in OWL. The community has been waiting to say TransitiveProperty for some time...

18:30:44 <Danc_RSW> ... this one involved lots of discussion, but the result is clean, complete with formal model theory. [and test suite, tim!]

18:31:53 <Danc_RSW> [timbl's word-rate has stabilized at a rate that is, well, pretty close to optimal in timbl's world]

18:32:30 <Danc_RSW> . timbl: "well bloomin done!"

18:33:15 <kendallclark> alas, can't see any slides in overflow room

18:33:28 <Danc_RSW> you don't have a video monitor?

18:33:38 <Danc_RSW> or does it show him and not his slides?

18:33:43 <kendallclark> we do, but it's illegible :<

18:34:11 <kendallclark> utterly so, actually

18:34:31 <golbeckSanibel> squiggly straight lines

18:34:35 <golbeckSanibel> with bullets

18:35:10 <Danc_RSW> . "Risks" slide

18:35:44 <Danc_RSW> . timbl: we all know the value of KISS, but we're hit-and-miss on doing it

18:37:20 * Danc_RSW pats self on back for handing timbl the burger joke

18:37:41 * kendallclark didn't get it, sorry

18:38:58 <Danc_RSW> [word rate a bit high now]

18:39:28 <kendallclark> esp w/out support from the slides

18:39:29 <dajobe> If only somebody had invented an audio recording thing....

18:39:41 <Danc_RSW> . timbl: you know what standards are like; they're better in small quantities

18:40:12 <Danc_RSW> I saw somebody with an isight camera the other day; asked him if he'd just recorded whatever talk it was; but he had only unicast it.

18:40:14 * dajobe will rely on the xml.com report from kendall

18:40:18 <dajobe> ... if he can read the slides

18:40:28 <kendallclark> daj: i'm trying! :>

18:40:33 * Danc_RSW looks forward to more yummy xml.com articles from kendallclark too

18:40:41 <kendallclark> heh, thx

18:40:48 <kendallclark> dajobe bashed the first two! :>

18:40:56 <kendallclark> so i'm a bit shy now (no, not really)

18:41:31 <Danc_RSW> two? you've written lots of xml.com articles, no? I like to see how much of the TAG's work is understandable by the xml.com community thru your writing

18:41:55 <kendallclark> i meant the first two *this week* :>

18:42:09 <kendallclark> thinking about a 3rd

18:42:25 * Danc_RSW adds kendallclark's 2 articles this week to a huge stack of stuff I've heard about this week that I want time to study

18:42:34 <kendallclark> wow, he's SO lost me!

18:42:40 <dajobe> uh oh

18:42:54 <dajobe> what would be the live feedback version of slow down?

18:43:50 <kendallclark> is he still On Slides or off the rails?

18:44:16 <Danc_RSW> . timbl: how many have been on #rdfig?

18:44:20 <golbeckSanibel> uh oh

18:44:33 * nmg waits for the hordes to arrive

18:44:35 <bijan> Wow, look, here we are!

18:44:37 * kendallclark hopes we're not suddenly flooded w/ newfolks just now

18:44:40 <Danc_RSW> . timbl: irc.freenode.net channel rdfig

18:44:46 <Danc_RSW> why not?

18:44:46 * dajobe waves

18:44:52 <dajobe> indeed, welcome

18:45:03 <kendallclark> well, *just now* while i'm trying to trnascribe, hoping for some help :>

18:45:14 <Danc_RSW> re off the rails: a bit... he's sorta talking about outreach and community building

18:45:36 <Danc_RSW> slide title is "Deployment"

18:45:46 <Danc_RSW> . * Work RDF into products

18:45:52 <Danc_RSW> . * Legacy adapters

18:45:54 <Danc_RSW> [oops; next slide]

18:46:41 <kendallclark> the Home Depot sound effects are interesting

18:47:14 <Danc_RSW> IMAP, WebDAV, OFX, ... "Just use HTTP + RDF"

18:47:37 <kendallclark> well, as a rest bigot, i'm down with that, but he's giving me headache! :>

18:47:40 <nernst-kcap> i have a few things going, http://chiselog.chisel.cs.uvic.ca/node/view/272

18:47:45 <Danc_RSW> ^ "When you have a hammer" slide

18:48:20 <kendallclark> Is he remodeling his home?! :>

18:48:46 <Danc_RSW> always ;-)

18:48:54 <kendallclark> it so shows

18:49:25 <kendallclark> funny, NI disclaims EAI as a workable pitch/biz-model for their OWL stuff. Someone should tell Tim that, perhaps.

18:49:48 <jeen> i love that. no killer app for the SW. i know some managers in a company near me that are gonna go berserk...

18:51:27 <kendallclark> tim channels elmer gantry for a bit...

18:51:33 <kendallclark> scary

18:51:59 <nmg> sounded more like charlie brown's teacher at the back of the room - very poor acoustics

18:53:35 * Danc_RSW sees "8 of 35" at the bottom, wonders how much time timbl's supposed to take

18:53:45 <dajobe> lol

18:53:55 <kendallclark> yech

18:53:58 <jeen> think he'll try to top dieter?

18:54:11 <kendallclark> well, at his present manic level, i expect many slides in a big rush at the end

18:55:00 <kendallclark> it's not strong ai, but it is ai.

18:55:06 <mctx> nmg asked last night "what was the punchline to D's maatrix talk" Maybe Tim will give it...

18:56:07 <nernst-kcap> everything is ai though, it's a silly term now

18:56:11 * Danc_RSW finds the use and reaction to "AI" is very interesting

18:57:17 <kendallclark> there's a lot of silliness re: 'strong' ai

18:57:38 <nmg> still

18:58:04 * kendallclark talks about this in xml.com piece

18:58:53 <Danc_RSW> heh...

18:59:04 <Danc_RSW> . "Interlude: Web Architecture(TiM)"

18:59:43 <nernst-kcap> can you pass me the uri?

18:59:53 <Danc_RSW> s/men/mean/

19:00:34 <Danc_RSW> slides are to appear at http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/1023-iswc-tbl/

19:01:05 <Danc_RSW> uh-oh... public-sw-meaning@w3.org is spelled out in full on this slide. INCOMING!

19:01:26 <nmg> it couldn't make the dscussion ther emore contentious, surely?

19:01:39 <kendallclark> it hasn't seemed that bad to me

19:01:45 <Danc_RSW> no, not more contentious, but it could make for even more mail to wade thru

19:01:47 <kendallclark> it's a hard issue

19:01:57 <kendallclark> er, s/issue/cluster of issues/

19:09:12 * bijan unsubscribes from public-sw-meaning@w3.org

19:09:22 <kendallclark> heh

19:09:45 <Danc_RSW> ?

19:09:58 <bijan> DanC_RSWuh-oh... public-sw-meaning@w3.org is spelled out in full on this slide. INCOMING!

19:10:06 <Danc_RSW> ah

19:10:06 <bijan> +

19:10:08 <bijan> DanC_RSWno, not more contentious, but it could make for even more mail to wade thru

19:10:10 <bijan> =

19:10:16 * bijan unsubscribes from public-sw-meaning@w3.org

19:10:19 <bijan> :)

19:11:53 <kendallclark> did he really say that i'm obligated, as an ontology publisher, to make sure the closure of my ontology is finite? really?!

19:15:05 <nmg> terry payne (sitting next to me) is getting all excited because tim is using his US state/city ontology...

19:15:29 <bijan> What, the one with 50 contiguous states?

19:16:17 <nmg>http://www.daml.ri.cmu.edu/ont/USRegionState.daml

19:16:18 <dc_rdfig> Q: http://www.daml.ri.cmu.edu/ont/USRegionState.daml from nmg

19:16:50 <nmg> Q:| US contiguous state ontology (by Terry Payne)

19:16:50 <dc_rdfig> Titled item Q.

19:17:02 <nmg> yep, that one

19:17:15 <bijan> 50, eh?

19:17:32 <nmg> good point ;)

19:17:41 <kendallclark> yes, jen and i have created a new state from mexico & canada called "new texas", of which I am going to be the governor

19:17:46 <mctx> planned states are not included

19:17:48 <bijan> (/me credits jen and kendall on an...

19:17:56 <nmg> didn't you hear - they're towing the UK and mooring it next to Mass next year?

19:18:10 <bijan> But that's a nonselfcontiguous state :)

19:18:23 <Danc_RSW> . timbl: when the web was growing, we all knew "well, you can't index it all in one search engine." we were wrong there. All but peter Deutch of archie.

19:18:27 <kendallclark> i'm a governor, and i declare that it is!

19:19:05 <mctx> that's just an ontology mapping problem, then, isn't it? the contiguous, and slightly ambiguous contiguity?

19:19:11 <kendallclark> this extended google analogy is odd

19:20:37 <Danc_RSW> Q:yup, timbl made [http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/test/dbork/data/USRegionState.daml|a copy] to work with on planes and such

19:20:37 <dc_rdfig> Added comment Q1.

19:21:03 * Danc_RSW notes "25 of 35"

19:21:55 <Danc_RSW> . timbl: the cost of a web site is what it takes to maintain it. "We'll build you a web site for $500" but then it gets out of date. companies have to build a social system within their organization to keep the web up to date

19:22:13 <kendallclark> and then we get MS Word XML :<

19:23:27 * nmg awaits MS Excel RDF

19:23:57 <swh> word rdf is scaryier

19:24:24 <swh> <sentance has-letter=&ms;letter_A ...

19:24:51 <GabeW> well, rdf as metadata in those formats wouldn't be bad....

19:25:24 <GabeW> don't throw out the RDF with the XML ;-)

19:25:28 <Danc_RSW> deiter gives 5 min warning

19:28:20 <kendallclark> oh well

19:29:08 <kendallclark> i honestly tried to follow him; maybe overflow room was a bad choice.

19:30:35 <nernst-kcap> what's the background on the 'X @ semantic web' shirts

19:30:40 <jeen> at least you aren't stewing...

19:34:15 <Danc_RSW> . timbl does a dramatic imitation of a proof checker.

19:35:03 <kendallclark> i'm not sure i'd say "dramatic"... maybe "frenetic"

19:39:41 <Danc_RSW> by "dramatic" I meant "acted out"

19:41:05 <kendallclark> and by "frenetic" i meant, "it slightly scared me" :>

19:44:18 <kendallclark> ho hum

19:55:35 * Danc_RSW realizes he's been looking at a screen too much

20:18:54 <mortenf> dc_rdfig, N:

20:18:55 <dc_rdfig>http://catalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=1&ti=1,1&Search_Arg=Dictionary+of+the+Social+Sciences%0D%0A&Search_Code=TALL&PID=20166&CNT=25&SEQ=20031023140741&SID=1

20:19:16 <mortenf> N:|Library of Congress - search

20:19:16 <dc_rdfig> Titled item N.

20:19:52 <mortenf> feature request: item letters on the chump index page...

20:29:12 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

21:50:28 <deusx> deusx is now known as _deusx

22:16:55 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

23:14:50 * WillWare checks to see if the connection has been lost

23:14:54 <WillWare> nope

23:24:16 <esigler> esigler is now known as esigler_away