Semantic Web Interest Group IRC Chat Logs for 2003-11-07

00:22:14 <mdupont> mdupont is now known as md-ZZZ

00:50:39 <GabeW> anybody care to point me to something talking about the relative merits of using qnames or URIs as "constants" in an XML schema?

01:30:13 <ChanServ> [#rdfig] This channel is logged and blogged: http://logicerror.com/rdfIRCWelcome

01:38:17 <ericP> anyone know of a namespace for exceptions?

01:38:29 <ericP> expressing java exceptions and the like?

01:56:49 <ericP>http://www.w3.org/2003/11/Exception/ns

01:56:49 <dc_rdfig> A: http://www.w3.org/2003/11/Exception/ns from ericP

01:57:03 <ericP> A:|namespace for exceptions

01:57:04 <dc_rdfig> Titled item A.

01:57:16 <ericP> A:quick hack, might be useful

01:57:16 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A1.

02:33:36 <sandro> Has it ever been explained why this new version of RDF isn't getting a version number? Or is it?

02:35:19 <eaon> eaon is now known as eaon|zZz

04:13:04 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

06:47:28 <esigler> esigler is now known as esigler_away

06:57:37 <esigler_away> esigler_away is now known as esigler

07:44:31 <GNUPredator> GNUPredator is now known as mdupont

08:46:54 <mdupont> mdupont is now known as md-work

08:50:02 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

09:13:49 <arnarl> hi

09:14:43 <sbp> hi there

10:09:09 <libby> morning larsbot, any luck with jena2?

10:15:11 <larsbot> morning, libby

10:15:16 <larsbot> yeah, I got it to work in the end

10:15:21 <larsbot> and jena2 can parse n3

10:15:33 <libby> hooray :)

10:15:39 <larsbot> still got some code to convert, but I'll do that when I need that code

10:15:51 <libby> did you have much trouble converting from 1.6?

10:16:54 <larsbot> not really. I had to change package names and stop using SelectorImpl

10:17:13 <larsbot> oh, and it started giving concurrentmodificationexception

10:20:38 <larsbot> other than that I don't think there was anything

10:22:22 <libby> that doesn't sound too bad

10:24:06 <larsbot> no, it wasn't

10:39:28 <emacsen> morning all

10:40:27 <emacsen> I know this is a newbie question, but does anyone know of a feed reader for the T-Mobile Sidekick?

10:41:03 * danbri thinks danc used to have one of them

10:41:11 <danbri> .google gizmo dm93

10:41:12 <datum> gizmo dm93: http://dm93.org/z2001/WearableGizmo

10:41:36 <emacsen> hipAgent.py seems to exist but I don't really see any info directly on it- just the CVS repository :)

10:41:39 <danbri> might be some links there

10:41:45 <danbri> yup

10:43:09 <emacsen> my gf complains about my web site's layout- I want to give her just the rss feed and let something else worry about the visuals :)

10:48:58 <emacsen> DanC is idle... I'll try again when he's not

10:51:44 <dajobe> he's at GMT-6, so sleeping probably

10:52:05 <emacsen> I am too :)

13:10:34 <libby> heya shellac

13:16:56 <shellac> ahoyhoy

13:45:12 <Flammifer> hi

13:45:18 <Flammifer> so what's going on around here ?

13:46:35 * Flammifer 's interested in the Semantic Web and starting to study artificial intelligence ...

13:47:09 <libby> hi flammifer. which bits in particular?

13:47:26 <Flammifer> of IA or Sem Web ?

13:47:51 <Flammifer> anyway I just got into this school so I don't know much about what I'll get into

13:48:39 <Flammifer> I'll be doing 9normally) some research arounf artificial intelligence

13:49:53 <libby> semweb, I was thinking of

13:50:08 <libby> this channel tends to pick up a bit later in the day

13:50:41 <Flammy> Flammy is now known as flammifer

14:10:55 <eikeon> sandro:

14:11:07 <jeen> can anybody tell me how a parser test can be "undecided"?

14:12:11 <eikeon> Maybe if the test was not run?

14:12:16 <sandro> Because Jos is doing parser tests as entailment tests.

14:12:38 <sandro> No, undecided means the software looked at the problem, made an attempt to solve it, and decided "I don't know".

14:12:51 <jeen> ah i see.

14:13:09 <dajobe> sandro: did some test run data get dropped? seemed to be a bit empty than yesterday

14:13:21 <eikeon> sandro: Think I have rdflib's feed ready for you. Will send a url to you in a minute

14:14:38 <sandro> It's very much in the sense of decidability. It's odd to implement a parser test using a non-terminating (or very very slow) algorithm, but that was easiest for Jos doing his quick hack (since Jeremy said he wouldnt have Jena tests in by today).

14:14:50 <sandro> okay, eikeon

14:15:33 <sandro> dajobe, it's possible. Do you have any confirmation of how many tests there are?

14:17:00 <dajobe> there were 4 I chumped yesterday I think

14:17:16 <dajobe> redland, euler, RIO, 3store

14:17:36 <dajobe>http://www.w3.org/2003/11/results/rdf-core-tests

14:17:37 <dc_rdfig> B: http://www.w3.org/2003/11/results/rdf-core-tests from dajobe

14:17:42 <dajobe> B:|RDF Core Test Results

14:17:42 <dc_rdfig> Titled item B.

14:17:57 <dajobe> B:[http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/2003/11/06/2003-11-06.html#1068134029.617877|continued from yesterday] - Raptor, RIO, 3store, Euler

14:17:59 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B1.

14:18:08 <jeen> Sandro, i just mailed you a new URL for Rio parser test results. Hope this one is better :)

14:19:59 <jang> undecided parser test?

14:20:38 <dajobe> that was from looking at sandro's http://www.w3.org/2003/11/results/rdf-core-tests

14:20:42 <dajobe> I think jeen got an answer

14:21:02 <jeen> eh?

14:21:41 <dajobe> <jeen> can anybody tell me how a parser test can be "undecided"?

14:22:19 <jeen> ah right.

14:22:30 <dajobe> B:also includes [http://www.w3.org/2003/08/surnia/test-results/current/results.rdf|RDF results from Surnia]

14:22:30 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B2.

14:22:31 <jeen> <sandro> Because Jos is doing parser tests as entailment tests.

14:23:09 <dajobe> B2:now includes [ http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-comments/2003OctDec/0110.html|Surnia] results

14:23:09 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment B2.

14:23:22 <dajobe> darn

14:23:26 <dajobe> B2:now includes [http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-comments/2003OctDec/0110.html|Surnia] results

14:23:26 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment B2.

14:24:45 <jang> I think Euler's smart enough to be in two minds about some test cases :-)

14:24:52 <jang> or no minds, looking at it.

14:25:13 <dajobe> jos still doesn't know how to do negative tests I think

14:25:17 <dajobe> how to pass them, even

14:25:41 <jang> well, it's tricky.

14:25:46 <sandro> Yeah, that's why I tried it with Surnia

14:25:54 <jang> your reasoner doesn't need to be complete, it just needs to halt

14:26:11 <sandro> You just need (1) complete axioms and (2) a complete reasoner.

14:26:21 <sandro> No, if it halts without being complete, you may have a wrong answer.

14:26:46 <jang> The quandry is over the difference between "no proof found" and "no proof exists"

14:27:40 <jang> since "no proof found" can be hmm-ed and haa-ed into being called a pass "by reason of not failing"

14:30:03 <jang> basically that's why jos doesn't want to claim he passes those tests, because the reasoner is much simpler and he's far too honest about interpreting his results.

14:47:51 <sandro> Right -- in my case I'm using a reasoner which is extremely well known to be complete, and directly using the rules which RDF Semantics says are complete. Actually -- I guess I'm NOT for datatypes -- oops.

14:48:04 <sandro> I could also use a model-finder. Hm.

14:49:17 * dajobe goes to do telcon prep

14:57:37 <sandro> Great Job eikeon.... Just.... One.... More.... Test.... To.... Pass.... !!!! ! http://www.w3.org/2003/11/results/rdf-core-tests#ByNumberOfPasses_table_1_Approved%20Positive%20Parser%20Test

15:22:20 <swh> sandro: are you planning to add 3store and sesame?

15:51:27 <sandro> Yes -- actually checking them in now. :-)

15:51:38 <sandro> Should be available about now.

15:52:24 <sandro> sesame feed still has some glitches. I was also taking out my over-eager runs of Surnia on tests with datatype semantics.

15:53:06 <swh> sandro: cheers

15:53:14 <sandro> :-)

15:54:28 <swh> oops, looks like I messed up the file

15:55:07 <swh> swh is now known as swh_coffee

15:57:17 <sandro> B:And now actually including 3store, and with new results from RIO/sesame, and no Surnia runs on things it's not ready for (datatypes).

15:57:18 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B3.

15:59:17 <jeen> cool stuff. what was wrong with the sesame feed?

15:59:31 * jeen ogles Raptor's 100% enviously

16:00:30 <jeen> never mind, just got your mail

16:00:56 <sandro> ah, forgot you were on here.

16:01:54 <jeen> happens all the time :)

16:02:07 <jeen> strange. the description should be in there...

16:02:22 <sandro> Maybe me and my software are missing it somehow?

16:02:36 * jeen checks

16:05:18 <jeen> it's right at the bottom, and it's a bNode with a label, comment, and homepage property.

16:06:44 <jeen> but the description you added by hand suits me fine as well, no worries.

16:07:10 <jeen> btw do you plan to do scheduled updates or anything like that?

16:14:49 <sandro> I do plan to have it constantly updating itself, when it gets a little more stable.

16:15:08 <jeen> alright, great

16:15:40 * jeen heads home

16:29:41 <dajobe> B:the rdfcore wg has discovered a couple of charmod-literal error test cases are withdrawn, test suite to be updated

16:29:41 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B4.

16:45:46 <dajobe> B:that is [http://www.w3.org/2000/10/rdf-tests/rdfcore/rdf-charmod-literals/Manifest.rdf#error001|rdf-charmod-literals/error001] and [http://www.w3.org/2000/10/rdf-tests/rdfcore/rdf-charmod-literals/Manifest.rdf#error002|rdf-charmod-literals/error002] will be withdrawn

16:45:47 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B5.

17:15:46 <jhendler> fg

17:20:55 <md-work> md-work is now known as mdupont

17:30:24 <swh_coffee> swh_coffee is now known as swh

18:29:30 <danbri>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-rules/2003Nov/0026.html

18:29:31 <dc_rdfig> C: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-rules/2003Nov/0026.html from danbri

18:29:39 <danbri> C:|RDF Query -- possible WG charter draft for discussion

18:29:39 <dc_rdfig> Titled item C.

18:29:51 <danbri> C:Comments to www-rdf-rules please.

18:29:51 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C1.

18:30:32 <danbri> C:See [http://www.w3.org/2003/10/RDF-Query-Charter|draft] for details. Thanks!

18:30:32 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C2.

19:35:33 <mdupont> mdupont is now known as md-afk

20:42:19 <jhendler> woohoo - /me at natl academy of sciences meeting

20:42:48 <jhendler> Stu Feldman (VP IBM) shows his "evolution and convergence of technologies" slides (which he has shown for years)

20:43:07 <jhendler> difference is it now has a box called "Semantic Web" and an enabling technology called RDF

20:43:15 <jhendler> !!

20:43:26 <jhendler> (unfortunately, not on web)

20:43:48 <jhendler> has grid, webservices, and semweb coming together for "Services on Grid on Demand"

20:48:37 <jhendler> dc_rdfig, pointer

20:48:38 <dc_rdfig> Not understood: pointer

20:48:46 <jhendler> hmm, how do I do that?

20:49:02 <dajobe> logger, pointer

20:49:02 <dajobe> See http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2003-11-07#T20-49-02

20:49:14 <jhendler> ahh, of course... thanks

20:49:39 <jhendler>http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2003-11-07#T20-49-02

20:49:39 <dc_rdfig> D: http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2003-11-07#T20-49-02 from jhendler

20:50:01 <jhendler> DanC: Chat note - Stu Feldman (VP IBM) mentions Sem Web in public...

20:50:10 <jhendler> arggh -

20:50:27 <jhendler> D:|Chat Note - Stu Feldman (VP IBM) mentions RDF in public

20:50:27 <dc_rdfig> Titled item D.

20:51:02 * DanC waves

20:51:10 <jhendler> howdy

20:51:27 <jhendler> just got your mail

20:52:36 <DanC> hmm... haven't arranged for connolly+pager to reach me in Japan yet...

20:52:54 <jhendler> suspect email the winner given the time difference

20:53:17 <DanC> yeah

20:53:56 <jhendler> I got AC irc/phone info, but the interesting sessions are mostly 2-4AM

20:54:06 <jhendler> I may decide to just read the log :->

20:54:46 <JibberJim> jhendler, you can have the logger do the chumping now - logger, chump D or something is the syntax

20:55:05 <jhendler> thanks jj

20:55:25 <DanC> D:what venue?

20:55:25 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D1.

20:56:19 <jhendler> DanC: Computer Science and Telecommunications Board meeting - IT and Competitiveness, planning meeting

20:56:38 <jhendler> arrgh - I wanted that as D: but it completes when I send ...

20:56:48 <DanC> (1) try without the space

20:56:56 <jhendler> D:Computer Science and Telecommunications Board meeting - IT and Competitiveness, planning meeting

20:56:56 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D2.

20:57:00 <DanC> (2) xchat has a way to turn that off

20:57:29 <DanC> it's a FrequentlyReportedProblem

20:57:51 <DanC> hmm... belongs in ...

20:57:53 <jhendler> thanks - I don't usually use xchat (am vpning on something that is letting me cheat through X)

20:57:57 <DanC> .google InternetRelayChat ESW

20:57:59 <datum> InternetRelayChat ESW: http://esw.w3.org/topic/InternetRelayChat

20:58:17 <DanC> this board meeting is a public forum?

20:58:50 <jhendler> umm, public enough for me to say this here and chump it, not public enough to quote elsewhere I suspect

20:59:15 <jhendler> I'm hoping slides will be pt on line, but not sure if this is going to happen

20:59:18 <DanC> this board? http://www7.nationalacademies.org/cstb/

21:00:17 <jhendler> yup, but this is a "planning" meeting, meaning it is discussing whether to do a study

21:00:22 <jhendler> rather than part of one

21:03:34 <DanC> D:aka [http://www7.nationalacademies.org/cstb/|CSTB]. chair: [http://www7.nationalacademies.org/cstb/people_clark.html|Dave Clark]

21:03:34 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D3.

21:04:02 <jhendler> DanC: worth noting that this isn't the same as him saying it at a public meeting

21:04:20 <jhendler> D:worth noting that this isn't the same as him saying it at a public meeting

21:04:21 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D4.

21:04:24 <DanC> "in public" are your words, not mine.

21:04:33 <jhendler> D:but a step in the right direction

21:04:33 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D5.

21:04:41 <DanC> easy enough to edit them ala: D:|(new title here)

21:05:04 <jhendler> D:but please note - he said this in a context as an individual, not representing IBM official position in any way

21:05:04 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D6.

21:05:43 <DanC> er... you put IBM in the headline. if you didn't mean it, you should edit it.

21:05:54 <jhendler> D:|Stu Feldman comments at a meeting - see chat

21:05:54 <dc_rdfig> Titled item D.

21:06:19 <jhendler> thanks Dan for helping me get this stated more clearly

21:16:03 <jhendler> wow - that must be a long flight for karlcow :->

21:46:06 <cmjg> argh; was just about to send the third (and best, probably) option to rdfcore wrt test cases, and the mail server's died.

21:49:47 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

22:10:02 <Davey> Hey... whats a good schema for storing news data? Is there one?

22:10:12 <mattmcc> RSS? :)

22:10:25 <Davey> The full data?

22:10:37 <dajobe> pick an rss1.0 module

22:10:41 <dajobe> or prism

22:10:46 <Davey> as in, who, when, what, where and the content...

22:11:24 <dajobe> sad, message to xml-dev [[

22:11:26 <dajobe> How does one go about getting information on how to process a RDF XML document? I have google searched this subject for a couple of hours and I have came up with no valid solutions.

22:11:27 <dajobe> ]]

22:12:17 <mattmcc> One wonders what terms they were using to google.

22:12:24 <dajobe> indeed

22:13:17 <Davey> ok, XML_Annotea isn't going into PEAR, I really don't wanna deal with re-writing RAP atm