Semantic Web Interest Group IRC Chat Logs for 2003-11-27

00:22:34 * jmb is back (gone 05:36:04)

00:57:33 <md-research> md-research is now known as ZzZz-snore-ZzZz-

00:57:58 <ZzZz-snore-ZzZz-> ZzZz-snore-ZzZz- is now known as ZzZz-snore-Zzmdz

00:58:07 <ZzZz-snore-Zzmdz> ZzZz-snore-Zzmdz is now known as ZzZz-snore-Zz-md

01:03:11 <hackery__> hackery__ is now known as jmb

02:04:36 <danbri_>http://www.nexist.org/Jena2Manager/index.html

02:04:36 <dc_rdfig> A: http://www.nexist.org/Jena2Manager/index.html from danbri_

02:04:43 <danbri_> A:|Jena2 Manager

02:04:43 <dc_rdfig> Titled item A.

02:04:59 <danbri_> A:Looks handy. Haven't tried it yet. UI for managing RDF via Jena.

02:04:59 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A1.

02:38:29 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

03:10:21 <emacsen> Anyone know of a good XML schema for blogs?

03:10:55 <LotR> xhtml :)

03:11:37 <emacsen> LotR: Basically, all the blog engines have issues, and I was wondering "If I could write my own, what storage backend would I use"

08:27:28 <ZzZz-snore-Zz-md> ZzZz-snore-Zz-md is now known as mdupont

09:16:55 <arnarl> hi

09:17:02 <danbri_> hi

09:18:12 <sh1m> moin

10:47:41 <mdupont> moin

11:17:23 <dajobe>http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/stats.html

11:17:25 <dc_rdfig> B: http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/stats.html from dajobe

11:17:37 <dajobe> B:|RDF Interest Group (#rdfig) Chat Logs

11:17:38 <dc_rdfig> Titled item B.

11:17:49 <dajobe> B:still alive. polished with new xhtml shinyness

11:17:49 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B1.

11:18:51 <dajobe> B:|RDF Interest Group (#rdfig) Chat Logs statistics

11:18:51 <dc_rdfig> Titled item B.

11:19:09 <sbp> wow, I've slipped well down in the list of big mou^W^H^Wmost talkative people

11:19:20 <dajobe> B:i've never worked out why Wednesdays are *the* day to chat

11:19:20 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B2.

11:19:40 <jeen> dang, I'm not in the top 50 :/

11:19:54 <dajobe> B:some loquacious (ex?) chatters still leading the lists :)

11:19:54 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B3.

11:19:58 <sbp> furthest day from the weekends, perhaps. people don't even *think* about leusure

11:20:36 <dajobe> B:yes, it really was made by [http://www.analog.cx/|analog]

11:20:36 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B4.

11:20:53 <mattb> i didn't realise i talked so much

11:20:53 <sbp> it's funny that Aaron's still up there, given his lack of being around at all lately

11:20:57 <mattb> on here, anyway

11:21:30 <libby_> libby_ is now known as libby

11:21:34 <dajobe> I think rdfig.xmlhack.com needs a bit of a style brush up

11:23:56 <sbp> it's not too bad

11:24:38 <dajobe> need to add more of the mailing lists

11:24:46 <dajobe> & maybe add more wiki pointers

11:29:28 <sbp> maybe the previous months list should be broken into year, too

11:29:48 <dajobe> that would need chump code changes

11:30:00 <dajobe> I was only suggesting links & style

11:30:16 <sbp> okay. left border for the sidebar?

11:30:39 * dajobe feels the wrath of edd by proxy

11:30:42 <sbp> just a thin sliver of grey

11:31:45 <sbp> wrath of edd just because of a couple-of-pixels-wide bit of spacing grey?

11:32:30 <sbp> you can tell him that I, Sean B. Palmer, mandated it with the utmost vehemence on #rdfig, and I'm sure he'll be glad to accommodate the whim

11:32:40 <dajobe> lol

11:33:06 <sbp> :-)

11:33:34 * dajobe gets an ack

11:34:11 <sbp> as in "acknowledged" or "ack!"

11:34:12 <sbp> ?

11:34:31 <dajobe> edd says I can edit it

11:34:37 <sbp> cool

11:34:57 <dajobe> it's provided/hosted by xmlhack, as you know

11:55:41 <mdupont> http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3641510118 buy me in ebay

11:57:49 * sbp starts thinking up unutterable things from mdupont to work on in that hour...

11:57:54 <sbp> s/from/for/

12:00:06 <sbp> an N3 parser in 10 lines of Perl code would be nice

12:00:25 <dajobe> LOL

12:00:34 * danbri waves, pings sbp re prospect of tinyscutter in python...

12:01:05 <sbp> oh, excellent! what a great thing to procrastinate on. thanks danbri

12:01:09 <dajobe> perl -e 'system("python cwm.py -n3 ".$ARGV[1])'

12:01:16 <sbp> haha

12:02:51 <danbri> sbp, glad to be of service!

12:02:52 <mdupont> sbp: 10 lines?

12:03:13 <mdupont> how long can the lines be?

12:03:19 <sbp> 80 chars

12:03:21 * mdupont imagines a long line of perl

12:03:27 <mdupont> oh shit

12:03:31 <sbp> :-)

12:03:48 <mdupont> let me think about it

12:03:49 <dajobe> you can't even describe n3 in 10x60 char lines

12:04:03 <mdupont> am i allowed to use quantum bits?

12:04:08 <jql> n3 in 10 lines of perl? you don't want to know how possible that is

12:04:16 <jql> err, I meant ntriples

12:04:18 <sbp> qbits are fine, yes

12:04:19 <jql> n3 is harder

12:04:38 * jql ponders n3 a second

12:04:42 <jql> doable, but tricky

12:04:53 <mdupont> ntriples

12:05:02 <mdupont> why 10?

12:05:08 <mdupont> you just want to abuse me?

12:05:23 <sbp> of course. I was thinking of programming tasks for your auction

12:05:27 <jql> yeah, ntriples would be pretty simple. I don't even think 10 lines

12:05:38 <jql> perhaps 5

12:06:08 <dajobe> sbp did say n3, not ntriples

12:06:20 <jql> n3 is indeed harder. :)

12:06:29 * jql looks at his n3 bookmark

12:06:47 <dajobe> ntriples can be parsed with awk (handwave handwave)

12:06:54 <sbp> heh, heh

12:07:17 <sbp> I'm sure awk's Turing Complete; it can probably do N3 too

12:07:39 <mdupont> yeah

12:07:43 <sbp> actually, I think I prefer that challenge

12:07:49 <mdupont> you should be able to write a regex that parses ntriples

12:07:54 <mdupont> that might be doable in 10 lines

12:08:19 <jql> let me see... n3 is basically ; , [] and @prefix ?

12:08:21 <dajobe> all the text escapes are of fixed width once the initial char is known

12:08:28 <dajobe> jql: lol, no

12:08:38 <jql> or did I miss something important?

12:08:42 <sbp> aren't recursive sed's TC too? I'd like an N3 parser written in bash/sed

12:08:58 <jql> what'd I miss?

12:08:59 <mdupont> jql: that is more like ntriples

12:09:05 <mdupont> n3 has things like

12:09:13 <mdupont> () = list, {} = hash

12:09:19 <mdupont> and other good stuff

12:09:23 <dajobe> it's not a hash

12:09:27 <mdupont> ok

12:09:29 <dajobe> well, {} is not a hash

12:09:30 <mdupont> true

12:09:35 <sbp> you missed stuff like [ :- { ?x ?y ("a" "b" "c") }; :x blargh:something!h:mm ]

12:09:37 <mdupont> is it something funkier

12:09:48 <mdupont> but n3 is tough

12:10:37 * dajobe hunts for n3 funny he found the other day

12:11:24 <dajobe> BLURB:N3 oddity

12:11:25 <dc_rdfig> C: N3 oddity from dajobe

12:11:33 <dajobe> C:@prefix : <http://example.org/base1#> .

12:11:34 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C1.

12:11:38 <dajobe> C:a:a a:b .

12:11:39 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C2.

12:11:42 <jql> ok, ok, I missed a, has, is, <- >- and friends. clearly.

12:11:58 <dajobe> C:this si the same as "a:a a :b ."

12:11:58 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C3.

12:12:02 <dajobe> C3:this is the same as "a:a a :b ."

12:12:02 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment C3.

12:12:15 <jql> and I neglected the {} statement doohicker. :/

12:12:22 <dajobe> oops I missed a bit

12:12:37 <dajobe> C2:@prefix a: <http://example.org/base2#> .

12:12:37 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment C2.

12:12:44 <dajobe> C3:a:a a:b .

12:12:44 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment C3.

12:12:50 <dajobe> C:this is the same as "a:a a :b ."

12:12:50 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C4.

12:13:05 <sbp> ew

12:13:24 <dajobe> C:an example of whitespace issues & builtin keywords I think

12:13:24 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C5.

12:13:38 <jql> oh hell that's bad. :/

12:13:40 <nmg> one for UK RDF folk of a certain age: http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~nmg/i-spy.png

12:14:19 <Davey> think I'm not quite at that age...

12:14:28 <sbp> [[[

12:14:30 <sbp> notation3.BadSyntax: Line 3 of <file:/misc/tools/cwm/>: Bad syntax (object_list expected) at ^ in:

12:14:31 <sbp> "...g/base1#> .

12:14:31 <sbp> @prefix a: <http://example.org/base2#> .

12:14:31 <sbp> a:a a:b^ .

12:14:31 <sbp> "

12:14:32 <sbp> ]]]

12:14:47 <dajobe> I thought I had the latest cvs

12:15:06 <sbp> maybe I'm using old stuff, then. cwm.py,v 1.142

12:15:14 <sbp> (2003/09/05)

12:15:47 <dajobe> works here, after a fresh update

12:15:51 <dajobe> #Processed by Id: cwm.py,v 1.144 2003/09/14 20:20:20 timbl Exp

12:16:18 <sbp> grumble. seems like it may have changed recently, then

12:16:36 <dajobe> n3 in "changing language" shocker! :) :)

12:16:42 <sbp> heh, heh

12:16:55 <dajobe> that's fine, it's meant to be a place to play

12:16:59 <sbp> nmg: oh good grief, that's the first evidence I've had of being at a certain age

12:17:14 * nmg grins

12:17:26 <sbp> well, this keyword stuff has been around for ages. it should've been done and dusted by now

12:17:41 <dajobe> logger, chump c

12:17:41 <dajobe> C:See [http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2003-11-27#T12-17-41|discussion]

12:17:41 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C6.

12:17:54 <sbp> heh, wow. cool

12:30:37 <dajobe>http://www.dbis.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de/~tolle/RDF/eRQL/index.html

12:30:37 <dc_rdfig> D: http://www.dbis.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de/~tolle/RDF/eRQL/index.html from dajobe

12:30:43 <dajobe> D:|easy RDF Query Language (eRQL)

12:30:43 <dc_rdfig> Titled item D.

12:31:01 <dajobe> D:+[http://www.dbis.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de/~tolle/RDF/GIF/erql.png]

12:31:01 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D1.

12:31:27 * jeen senses abbrev. overl.

12:31:49 * dajobe invents eRQL lite - el

12:38:14 * Davey thinks we have enough acronyms already

12:45:12 <mdupont> dajobe: wow that guy in in frankfurt

12:45:20 <mdupont> i should hook up with him

13:30:18 <mdupont> mdupont is now known as md-afk

13:45:15 <dajobe> ok, I have the rdfig.x.c html power now

13:46:34 <md-afk> md-afk is now known as mdupont

13:49:52 <dajobe> maybe could get rid of the <table>, dunno

13:52:20 <dajobe> look, grey bar - ugh

13:56:04 <sbp> did you get rid of it already?

13:56:11 <dajobe> no, but added some padding

13:56:20 <sbp> ah, no. refresh. yeah. I quite like that

13:56:21 <dajobe> meeting, bbl

13:56:42 <danbri> ditto

15:06:09 <jeen> ls -la

15:06:18 <jeen> er. wrong window

15:26:37 <libby_> heh

15:27:50 <sbp> one day I'm going to work out why people do that so often

15:28:09 <shellac> in my case: two monitors

15:28:29 <danbri> iamgodandsomedaythosefoolsinrdfigwillrealiseit01

15:28:32 <sbp> that's a good excuse

15:28:33 <danbri> er. wrong window.

15:28:45 <sbp> heh, heh

15:28:52 <danbri> two monitors, yeah. thats got me a few times.

15:29:24 <shellac> one big window in front of you, must have focus

15:29:59 <shellac> then it's 'srm plans_to_destroy_world' broadcast to the world

15:30:31 <dajobe> C:\ DIR/W

15:30:32 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C7.

15:30:34 <dajobe> oops, wrong window

15:31:01 <sbp> heh! now *that*'d be scarier than `srm plans_to_destroy_world`

15:31:09 <sbp> and perhaps sorta equivalent

15:31:39 <dajobe> is that work safe?

15:31:46 <Davey> totally

15:32:00 <dajobe> not that "davey@usercloak" is much of an identifier

15:32:16 <Davey> hmm?

15:32:46 <dajobe> your irc userhost

15:33:11 <Davey> yes, what about it?

15:33:23 <dajobe> nevermind

15:33:38 <Davey> heh, ok

15:33:42 * jeen notices people are talking about him behind his back

15:34:03 <shellac> everyone - hide

15:34:03 <jeen> in my case, it's because I use FocusFollowsMouse combined with ClickRaise.

15:34:14 * dajobe returns to html & css-ery

15:34:17 <jeen> heh

15:34:22 <dajobe> tables or divs?

15:34:25 <sbp> ah. another valid excuse

15:34:57 <Davey> dajobe: depends on the content

15:35:31 <dajobe> re http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/

15:35:44 <Davey> if its tabular content, tables, if its text, <h*>, <p> or other such application block elements. Theres nothing wrong with using tables, just not for layout :)

15:35:46 <dajobe> hmm, libby said something about the rss feed needed fixing

15:36:18 * Davey notes he's probably preaching to to the choir somewhat

15:36:31 <dajobe> Davey: I know the arguments pretty much; I can import one solution if nobody has any particular preferences to how to 'float' stuff

15:37:06 <shellac> I think div and float is ideal in this case

15:37:20 <dajobe> I'll nick it from my blog then

15:37:25 <shellac> assuming you're thinking about similar layout

15:38:34 <shellac> and a fixed background graphic - just because I think it looks cool :-)

15:39:16 * shellac marvels at image staying in position while rest scrolls - wheeee

15:48:28 <dajobe> ok, we have div

15:48:32 <dajobe> but something isn't right

15:56:10 <dajobe> argh

15:57:56 <shellac> you mean the top bit?

15:58:33 <shellac> or the width?

15:58:58 <dajobe> reload now

15:59:02 <dajobe> the rh column seems too wide

15:59:16 <dajobe> maybe I should just reduce the %age

16:00:27 <shellac> see what you mean - doesn't look like 1/4 width

16:01:03 <shellac> oh - the 'created...' bit at the bottom?

16:01:26 <dajobe> that's not floated

16:01:32 <Wack> if you declare the <side></side> _before_ the <main></main> and 'float: right' it?

16:01:42 <dajobe> that would suck for text readers

16:02:31 <shellac> float attribution bottom?

16:02:57 <dajobe> sorry?

16:03:26 <Wack> well, what about using no floate; /main { width: 75%; }, .side { position: absolute; top: 0em; left: 0em; width: 25% } ?

16:03:40 <Wack> erm, left=right in .side {}

16:04:15 <shellac> On gecko it looks like 2001/03 lines up with 'Created by' - making the box wider

16:04:26 <shellac> looks fine in Safari

16:04:34 <eaon|zZz> absolute positioned on the right side doesn't work in ie on win

16:04:40 <eaon|zZz> or, it works

16:04:44 <dajobe> reload for Wack's idea

16:04:51 <dajobe> ah

16:04:53 <eaon|zZz> but it fucks up if the resizing of the window

16:05:09 <sbp> div.attribution needs some margin/padding-top

16:05:11 <Wack> there's an easy fix for that eaon

16:05:37 <shellac> eek - when boxes collide

16:05:47 <eaon|zZz> a relative positioned wrapper Wack?

16:05:48 <shellac> Created over side bar

16:05:56 <eaon|zZz> i wanted to try that in the next few days

16:07:17 <eaon|zZz> eaon|zZz is now known as eaon|busy

16:07:25 <Wack> .attribution { clear: both; }

16:07:40 <Wack> to prevent it from appearing beside the floats

16:08:07 <dajobe> try now; I got rid of th eposition: absolute

16:08:39 <shellac> safari - good; gecko - good

16:09:21 <Wack> ie6, ie5.5 and ie5.01 as well

16:09:23 <shellac> (this is gecko trunk from last week)

16:10:44 <shellac> one suggestion: is it possible to have header full width?

16:10:59 <dajobe> I tried that for a bit

16:11:09 <dajobe> but it moved all the sidebar stuff down

16:11:13 <dajobe> thoughts?

16:11:25 <dajobe> I'm also looking for intro paragraph rewrite suggestions & sidebar links

16:12:29 <shellac> older pages broken - guess you know that

16:12:37 <dajobe> will fix the other styled pages later

16:13:06 <shellac> sorry - being dense - they look ok

16:13:29 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

16:13:36 <shellac> eg http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/2003/05/15/2003-05-15.html (pretty busy, looks fine)

16:14:39 <Wack> could use a .main { margin-left: 1em; }

16:15:11 <Wack> er

16:15:16 <Wack> margin-right :/

16:15:21 <dajobe> hmm

16:15:24 <dajobe> that's ... er ok

16:15:34 * dajobe hands Wack a left-right diagram

16:15:56 <shellac> could you wrap the header in a div so I can try header 100%?

16:16:03 <Wack> or padding-right ... (text in the intro paragraph and topic headers touch the border of the .side{})

16:16:40 <Wack> wont work, the header should be outside the .main {}

16:17:04 <shellac> ah - good point

16:17:04 <dajobe> yes, I'll try that & move it

16:17:40 <Wack> that way, the header will most probably already be in a display: block; element, and will push down the floats that come after it

16:17:45 <dajobe> it does

16:17:47 <dajobe> reload

16:18:18 <shellac> cheers dave - that's what I was thinking of

16:18:25 <shellac> (and I see your point)

16:18:31 <dajobe> wasn't that what we had before I started?

16:18:48 <shellac> I can't remember :-)

16:19:47 <Wack> if you define the width of the .side{} in em's, and give .main{} a margin-right of equal size, it wont size relative to display size but to user font size

16:20:26 <dajobe> I don't know what you are saying. Do that because it's a good idea? or don't?

16:20:34 <Wack> doesnt really matter

16:20:38 <shellac> actually the current looks better in smaller windows

16:23:01 <Wack> yes, the .side now resizes relatively to the screen size

16:23:09 <Wack> using em's to declare a static size would have kept it the same size, regardless of window size, but it would scale with client font-size preferences

16:24:02 <Wack> hmm, long words/urls clears the menu on http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/2003/05/15/2003-05-15.html (the http://esw.w3.org/topic/RdfQueryTestingBudapestMeeting url is too wide)

16:24:38 <dajobe> I could make the padding-right on the left hand box

16:24:42 <dajobe> border-right

16:24:50 <Wack> (when the window width is small, like < 600 pixels or so here)

16:26:22 <Wack> only way to really fix it is to declare an overflow: hidden or overflow: visible on .item{} or .comment{}

16:26:41 <Wack> but that would make things unpredictable

16:33:18 <dajobe> this seems good enough for now

16:35:53 <shellac> thanks dave

18:51:08 <eaon|busy> eaon|busy is now known as eaon|out

19:06:29 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

19:18:08 <ChanServ> [#rdfig] This channel is logged and blogged: http://logicerror.com/rdfIRCWelcome

20:18:52 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

20:19:08 <mdupont> mdupont is now known as md-otm

20:52:07 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

20:53:00 <JibberJim> JibberJim is now known as JJ2

20:53:06 <JimJibber> JimJibber is now known as JibberJim

21:17:58 * DanC wants to try videoconferencing with some relatives on thanksgiving...

21:18:22 <DanC> can anybody reach callto:ils.seconix.com/connolly@w3.org ?

21:31:07 <aharth> danc: doesn't seem to work with gnomemeeting

21:32:33 * aharth bought a webcam yesterday, quite complicated to set up under linux

22:18:10 <dajobe>http://www.mindswap.org/2003/pellet/species.shtml

22:18:11 <dc_rdfig> E: http://www.mindswap.org/2003/pellet/species.shtml from dajobe

22:18:21 <dajobe> E:|OWL Species Validation in Pellet by Michael Grove

22:18:22 <dc_rdfig> Titled item E.

22:19:17 <dajobe> E:*If it had not been for extensive discussions with a friend and Sean Bechhofer?s short writeup on the subject, it would have been near impossible to figure out all the requirements and nuances of each of the tests.*

22:19:17 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E1.