Semantic Web Interest Group IRC Chat Logs for 2003-11-28

01:53:06 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

03:01:50 <eaon> eaon is now known as eaon|zZz

03:15:14 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

04:05:54 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

06:45:50 <eaon|zZz> eaon|zZz is now known as eaon

09:54:09 Topic now Semantic Web hack-n-chat http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/ latest logs http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/latest wiki http://esw.w3.org/topic/FrontPage

09:54:09 Users on #rdfig: logger libby sh1m caz jeen grove_ iwaim burtonator eaon GNUPredator uberfunk LotR bitsko eikeon jang Davey kota swh MarkB nmg sandro roGer^work danbri_ laszlo jql kasei workbench mmealling sbp tansaku datum GabeW dmiles DanC Mutiny shellac dngor ericP tomboh xover merriam chrisc josek dc_rdfig xower grove CaptSolo Wack grault deltab sh1mmer DanC-AIM

09:54:09 <MemoServ> You have no new memos

09:54:09 <ChanServ> [#rdfig] This channel is logged and blogged: http://logicerror.com/rdfIRCWelcome

09:54:36 <libby> BLURB:We were hoping to use this channel for a chat about SWAD-Europe tshirts today, 11-12 GMT

09:54:36 <dc_rdfig> A: We were hoping to use this channel for a chat about SWAD-Europe tshirts today, 11-12 GMT from libby

09:54:45 <libby> A:hope that's ok with everyone

09:54:45 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A1.

09:58:03 <deltab> you don't have a URL for them? how are we supposed to buy them?

09:58:19 <dajobe> lol

09:59:52 <libby> well the swad-e project will be paying for quite a few

10:00:37 <libby> it's a project tshirt...

10:01:03 <dajobe> which we're doing in the last 6 months of the project

10:01:07 <dajobe> Doh! that was backwards

10:01:22 <dajobe> next time, tshirts first then exploitation and use plan

10:02:48 <libby> well, there are 10 months left of the project, and also they're going to be designed as tshirts for sw geeks not just promotional project tshirts

10:02:59 <dajobe> :)

10:03:24 <dajobe> so you can't buy them; you have to earn them :)

10:04:14 <dajobe> is there an exchange rate with DanC points?

10:04:56 <libby> heh, maybe

10:05:40 <libby> A:[http://liz.xtdnet.nl/portfolio.html|Liz's portfoloio

10:05:40 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A2.

10:05:43 <libby> crud

10:05:49 <libby> A:[http://liz.xtdnet.nl/portfolio.html|Liz's portfolio]

10:05:50 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A3.

10:06:30 <libby> A:they're going to be designed as tshirts for sw geeks not just promotional project tshirts, so we thought it might be nice to discuss the design here

10:06:30 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A4.

10:06:43 <libby> A2:=""

10:06:43 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment A2.

10:14:48 <dajobe> libby: you need to do A2:""

10:15:12 <libby> A2:""

10:15:12 <dc_rdfig> Deleted comment A2.

10:15:13 <libby> ta

10:18:44 <eaon> eaon is now known as eaon|out

10:26:52 <ephidrina> hello

10:27:16 <libby> heya liz!

10:27:20 <danbri_> hi liz

10:27:25 * danbri_ in telecon for 1/2 hr yet

10:27:26 <libby> everyone, ephidrina is Liz Turner

10:27:35 <Davey> Hello Liz :)

10:27:52 <Davey> Liz: just been exploring your site, nice work :)

10:28:19 <ephidrina> oh thank you, davey :)

10:28:35 <Davey> <jealous />

10:32:29 <dajobe> .google 01225

10:32:30 <datum> 01225: http://www.davros.org/phones/cg012/cg01225.html

10:32:49 * dajobe shakes head, grins

10:32:54 <Davey> wow, bath.

10:33:29 <deltab> in the UK? Bath

10:35:21 <deltab> hmm, there's a significant number of names beginning with A, B or C in the surrounding range

10:42:52 <arnarl> hi

10:59:12 * ephidrina tugs politely at danbri's sleeve ....

10:59:36 <Davey> Morning Dorward :)

10:59:57 <danbri_> hiya

11:00:11 <libby> ok, are we all set?

11:00:25 <danbri_> liz, i'm in a telecon due to wrap up at top of hour, but i can read/type as well i guess! Lib, want to get us started?

11:00:50 <libby> I'd like to introduce Liz Turner (ephidrina), who is going to be designing our SWAD-Europe tshirt for us

11:01:08 <libby> she's offered to come and chat about her ideas here for a bit today

11:01:24 <libby> see http://rdfig.xmlhack.com for her portfolio

11:01:37 <Dorward> Morning all

11:01:54 <danbri_> (http://liz.xtdnet.nl/portfolio.html)

11:02:14 <libby> the idea of the tshirt is that it will be a cool sw geek tshirt, ratther than just a swad-e promo, and anyone who does cool sw stuff should be able to gte one (until we run out!)

11:02:39 <libby> Liz, want to say a bit about your ideas?

11:03:14 <ephidrina> libby & i developed this idea

11:03:29 <ephidrina> imagine a bank of human brains

11:03:40 <ephidrina> interconnected matrix-style

11:03:46 <ephidrina> looking quite surreal

11:03:53 <ephidrina> the brains are thinking

11:04:02 <ephidrina> "we"

11:04:04 <ephidrina> "designed"

11:04:07 <ephidrina> "the"

11:04:13 <ephidrina> "semantic"

11:04:16 <ephidrina> "web"

11:04:39 <ephidrina> and then on the back it has a slogan in various european languages:

11:04:53 <ephidrina> "and all we got was this lousy t-shirt"

11:05:04 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

11:05:07 <ephidrina> boom boom

11:05:12 * danbri_ leans towards 'built' rather than 'designed', in terms of things that would literally be true of 100s of RDF IGish hackers

11:05:29 <libby> (jan and dajobe came up with the slogan btw :)

11:05:49 <dajobe> built seems a bit better; built/operated/coded/hacked

11:05:58 <shellac> boke

11:06:00 <shellac> broke

11:06:03 <danbri_> :)

11:06:10 <libby> those who just joined, see rdfig.xmlhack.com to get to the logs to see what liz's idea is

11:06:27 <danbri_> one thing to tiptoe around is the 'Semantic Web = artificial intelligence' issue; we shouldn't seem too AI-ish.

11:06:32 <jeen> how about 'created', to give it that subtle evangelical touch?

11:06:35 <danbri_> But brains aren't AI, they're real-I

11:06:59 <libby> I like the brain idea: I'm thinking blue, like in futurama

11:07:09 <danbri_> :)

11:07:29 <libby> ephidrina: by 'matrix' do you mean like a grid of them? or something green?

11:07:33 <danbri_> logger, chump A:

11:07:33 <danbri_> A:See [http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2003-11-28#T11-07-33|discussion]

11:07:35 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A4.

11:07:51 <ephidrina> some sort of a grid, libby

11:07:53 <dajobe> do they all have to be brains?

11:08:07 <dajobe> you could have a (bender knockoff) style robot brain

11:08:10 <ephidrina> no - i was thinking there might be a few light bulbs to

11:08:57 <dajobe> the basic visual idea sounds good to me

11:09:03 <libby> I like it a lot

11:09:17 <danbri_> I think I might prefer 'helped build' to 'built' to avoid accusation/appearance of vanity, though it could be a bit cautious sounding

11:09:19 <danbri_> +1 on visuals

11:09:29 <libby> and the different languages idea means that we are europeans!

11:10:01 <ephidrina> the idea of interconnected brains: the machinery should be invisible

11:10:27 <ephidrina> like in the semantic web - it's so simple that u don't know it's there

11:10:32 <dajobe> but brains says connecting people (good) but also we're doing connecting machines

11:10:41 <ephidrina> exactly

11:10:44 <danbri_> I'd like btw to put this past the w3c comm team, once there's a draft of some kind

11:10:58 <libby> so do we think 'created', 'built', 'helped build'?

11:11:02 <ephidrina> and i think there should be no concessions to false modesty

11:11:07 <dajobe> will it have w3c/other partner logos on it?

11:11:21 * danbri_ inclined not, re logos

11:11:29 <dajobe> I agree

11:11:31 <danbri_> would make it a bit too 'European Project t-shirt'

11:11:32 <libby> the swad-e logo on it somewhere? could be small

11:11:38 <danbri_> yeah, could do that.

11:11:52 <ephidrina> i was thinking maybe the 3 blob logo becomes 3brains

11:11:53 <dajobe> it's either no partners or all of them.

11:12:10 <dajobe> swade logo, sure

11:12:36 <danbri_> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/images/Image9.png

11:12:38 <ephidrina> and if u put on lots of logo's, i will have to insist on one for my dodgy t-shirt shoppe ;)

11:12:39 <danbri_> or a mutation of it

11:12:49 <danbri_> lots of logos would be bad

11:12:57 <dajobe> 1 logo

11:13:00 <danbri_> animated.

11:13:03 <libby> so are we thinking dark tshirt, maybe pale-blue brains, yellow lightbulbs maybe, grey computers??, linked with white? lines

11:13:13 <libby> glow in the dark!

11:13:23 <D[a]vey> yeah! can wear it clubbing too!

11:13:24 <ephidrina> blerk!

11:13:32 <libby> liz designed the foafnaut tshirt and it glows in the dark :)

11:13:34 * dajobe doesn't like dark t-shirts, fwiw

11:13:35 <Kate_home> I agree Danbri, if we have a logo it should be probably the project logo - perhaps it could go on the sleeve?

11:13:49 * libby thinks nice idea that

11:13:52 <ephidrina> no - less is more

11:14:00 <libby> good to have proj logo, since funded by EC

11:14:18 <ephidrina> just the 1 logo - can i make it 3 brains instead of 3 blobs?

11:14:44 <libby> that'd be cute

11:14:47 <ephidrina> we could even put it on the sleeve so as not to clutter the front&back

11:14:53 <danbri_> +1 re funding

11:15:02 <danbri_> yes, goofing with the logo is good.

11:15:12 <danbri_> (unlike if used w3c logo, which isn't to be goofed with!)

11:15:14 <Kate_home> Yeh, can't see why not

11:15:27 <libby> this is probbaly the best version of the swad-e logo btw: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/talks/200311-rdfical/swade100.gif

11:15:35 <libby> sleeve good

11:15:44 <ephidrina> and i think it should be just the 1 color

11:15:59 <dajobe> I've got a really large gif/jpg of it; there's a pdf/eps or something

11:15:59 <libby> the whole shirt?

11:16:24 * libby deferes to ephidrina's superior design talent :)

11:16:38 <libby> - but the foafnaut one worked well with several colours

11:16:56 <ephidrina> yeh, but it was a simpler design

11:17:10 <danbri_> foafnaut shirts glowing in dark: http://www.wasab.dk/morten/2003/02/photos/2/21.jpg

11:17:40 <ephidrina> nice nice!

11:18:19 <libby> that's so cool

11:18:35 <libby> so, to summarise...

11:18:43 <ephidrina> i'd like it to have a sort of surreal-diagram aesthetic

11:18:44 <libby> swad-e logo on sleeve

11:18:51 <libby> with brains not blobs

11:19:19 <libby> brains/lightbulbs/computers possibly on front, connected, with text

11:19:20 <danbri_> diagram, yup

11:19:56 <libby> 'we' 'built' 'the' 'semantic' 'web'

11:20:06 <libby> and multi-language text on the back

11:20:24 * dajobe would suggest non european languages too, if possible

11:20:32 <danbri_> helped build, please, since we're restricting this to Europe.

11:20:40 <danbri_> Or, yes, add Japanese etc...

11:20:45 <libby> so ephidrina, will you produce some graphics we can see?

11:21:00 <danbri_> I get annoyed when DARPA stuff gives impression SW came solely from DAML. So we owe the same sensitivity.

11:21:07 <libby> 'we' 'helped' 'built' 'the' 'semantic' 'web'?

11:21:12 <ephidrina> mabe make it global - i think "helped buid" would reduce the impact

11:21:14 <danbri_> build not built

11:21:19 <libby> doh

11:21:23 <libby> 'we' 'helped' 'build' 'the' 'semantic' 'web'?

11:21:31 <danbri_> japanese script would look nice

11:21:40 <libby> that would be neat

11:21:42 <dajobe> +1 to <libby> 'we' 'helped' 'build' 'the' 'semantic' 'web'

11:21:43 <danbri_> part of being a European SW developer is collaborating w/ non-Europeans on this

11:21:55 <danbri_> modesty is ok. is what it is all about, imho.

11:22:07 <libby> if there was jp text etc, could we have 'built' rather than 'helped' 'build'?

11:22:13 <danbri_> (egos damage the project)

11:22:16 <ephidrina> make it as many languages as possible, and just have "built"

11:22:19 <danbri_> still prefer helped

11:22:35 * libby not that bothered, just 'helped' seems a bit cluttery

11:22:40 <ephidrina> yeh - but ther's lots of brains! it's a combined effort!!

11:22:46 <danbri_> its part of realising that each of our contribs is just a small piece of the puzzle. But yeah, agree re risk of clutter...

11:22:50 <ephidrina> no-one claims sole responsibility

11:22:54 <danbri_> also not everyone gets a t-shirt!

11:23:15 <danbri_> don't want to imply that only those we give t-shirts too did anything good...

11:23:15 <libby> heh, but we would if we could!

11:23:18 <Kate_home> yeah, I guess once translated there may be slightly different meanings! we would have to check

11:24:14 <libby> yeah

11:24:37 <danbri_> liz, when might you have some mockups?

11:24:46 <libby> so, non-swad-e people, does that sound like something you might wear?

11:25:25 * D[a]vey thinks

11:25:39 <ephidrina> um - could mock something up for next week sometime? say friday

11:25:48 <libby> ooh, fantastic

11:25:53 <ephidrina> but maybe sooner

11:26:21 <D[a]vey> What about "and we still had to pay for this lousy t-shirt"?

11:26:33 <danbri_> next week -- that'd be great

11:26:49 <dajobe> we already said the project would be mostly paying

11:26:50 <libby> well, people won't have to pay D[a]vey ...

11:26:56 <D[a]vey> libby: aah, OK :D

11:27:11 <danbri_> we'll probably give them away as rewards for cool stuff announced to the Interest Group

11:27:15 <D[a]vey> I like the idea for the graphics, though its something that needs to be seen to know if I like it :)

11:27:20 <libby> we're going to give them to people who do cool stuff :)

11:27:44 <libby> yes, it's hard to envisage without graphics

11:28:16 <libby> aliman - what do you reckon?

11:29:12 <aliman> hard to say without something to look at

11:29:13 <ephidrina> yeh - we will have to make a decision re the colors also

11:29:36 * D[a]vey thinks, not black

11:29:47 <dajobe> but would you wear it?

11:29:55 <libby> not black?

11:30:00 * libby loves black

11:30:14 * ephidrina might like white on black

11:30:31 <ephidrina> inverted escher look

11:31:04 <libby> glow in the dark brains! ;)

11:31:08 <danbri_> dark b/g is good

11:31:16 <dajobe> bah

11:31:19 <ephidrina> here's a white-on-black shirt i did for my online shoppe:

11:31:26 <libby> sorry dajobe :(

11:31:28 <ephidrina>http://liz.xtdnet.nl/cnut-tv/gfx/precriminal_m3.gif

11:31:28 <dc_rdfig> B: http://liz.xtdnet.nl/cnut-tv/gfx/precriminal_m3.gif from ephidrina

11:31:32 <danbri_> flattering for the tubby programmer physique!

11:31:33 <dajobe> I think the point is to show it in the daylight, imho.

11:31:35 <ephidrina> arrgh!

11:31:55 <libby> it's ok, would you rather not have it on the webpage rdfig.xmlhack.com?

11:32:12 <ephidrina> not really relevant

11:32:24 <D[a]vey> ephidrina: wow.

11:32:33 <ephidrina> B:|An example black-and-white shirt design by Liz

11:32:33 <dc_rdfig> Titled item B.

11:33:05 <ephidrina> D[a]vey, it's actually a very nice shirt - we're really proud of it

11:33:50 <ephidrina> B:also available [for women|http://liz.xtdnet.nl/cnut-tv/gfx/precriminal_f2.gif]

11:33:50 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B1.

11:34:42 <ephidrina> so that's the aesthetic i'm thinking of - but perhaps with a more cartoony toch

11:35:03 <ephidrina> touch

11:35:21 <libby> nice. I like the outline-y-ness of it

11:35:36 * danbri_ likes

11:35:38 <libby> avoids that 'bib-effect' you get with some tshirts

11:35:47 <danbri_> not too plasticky, yeah

11:36:33 <ephidrina> can i plug the website? please? pleeeaaasse?

11:36:45 <libby> yeah, go on :)

11:37:25 <ephidrina>http://t-errorism.com/

11:37:26 <dc_rdfig> C: http://t-errorism.com/ from ephidrina

11:38:01 <ephidrina> C:|T-ERRORISM.COM - Liz's nasty little webbe shoppe

11:38:01 <dc_rdfig> Titled item C.

11:38:48 <danbri_> cool

11:39:00 <danbri_> are we done for now? Liz, anything else we can do to help at this stage?

11:39:04 <ephidrina> C:also preview [this new design|http://t-errorism.com/catalog/images/dymax-t.gif] - the ideal xmas gift for the geowanker in your life

11:39:05 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C1.

11:39:25 <ephidrina> um yeh - i guess so

11:39:39 <ephidrina> i'll work on the design

11:39:48 <ephidrina> please get me numbers asap

11:39:54 <libby> ok, will do

11:40:17 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

11:40:24 <ephidrina> and we have to decide on the colors

11:40:44 <ephidrina> we should also perhaps talk about t-shirt quality

11:41:01 <libby> ok, well how about b/w for now, and we can get together late next week and view some designs

11:41:09 <danbri_> yes, would be good to know the options, and how numbers affect price, etc.

11:41:11 * libby thinks high-quality

11:41:15 <libby> right, yep

11:41:20 <ephidrina> ok - just quickly for yr inf:

11:41:46 <libby> oh, cute geowanking shirt liz

11:41:49 <ephidrina> the shirts i've been printing on lately are really nice - but they are expensive and on a longer lead time

11:42:47 <libby> well time may not be so important, but good to get costs to us for say 2 qualities, once we get you the numbers

11:42:49 <danbri_> i don't believe (lib, correct me...) this is peculiarly time-urgent

11:42:54 <danbri_> yup

11:43:19 <ephidrina> ok then - so yr not aiming for the xmas box or anything?

11:43:39 <danbri_> I wasn't particularly that way

11:43:40 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

11:43:53 <ephidrina> will get u details of the shirts next week

11:43:55 <danbri_> er, I wasn't particularly thinking that way

11:44:00 <libby> I think conferences will be our main outlet, and there's nothing in Jan I don;t think

11:44:00 <danbri_> cool, thanks Liz!

11:44:23 * D[a]vey points to february *grin*

11:44:33 <dajobe> etcon, feb

11:44:50 <D[a]vey> hmm, whats etcon?

11:44:51 <libby> thanks very much Liz. do you think you'll be around next Friday am for a brief chat+ a rough design?

11:44:59 <ephidrina> ah ok then - so deadline end jan/ is easily doable

11:45:12 <danbri_> great. ta!

11:45:21 <ephidrina> yeps can do that - will also be around during the week

11:45:42 <libby> dan and I are out in lux till thurs eve, not sure about web access

11:46:07 <D[a]vey> dajobe: got a link for etcon?

11:46:20 <ephidrina> if i have anything to say, will mail

11:46:29 <dajobe> sigh, DTFG

11:46:40 <libby> .google etcon

11:46:41 <datum> etcon: http://conferences.oreilly.com/etcon/

11:46:43 <ephidrina> and will be offline until tues, btw

11:46:48 <libby> ok, cool

11:47:21 <D[a]vey> thanks, sorry I'm so tired, I'm going to sleep now.

11:48:12 * danbri_ congrats dajobe on his new job in Google marketing

11:58:38 <libby> ok, we're done, many thanks all for your comments, and thanks Liz for coming along

11:59:08 <ephidrina> k - tnx guys :) talk again next week

13:17:43 <setre> Hi, I wonder if there anything suggested for standardizing comments on websites?

13:23:25 <setre> since many discussions moved of usenet or mailinglists and into blogs and web-forums, I bet alot of semantic meaning goes out the door?

13:40:17 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

13:42:14 <bitsko> setre: not yet. some have RSS feeds for their comments, but it's not common and there's not much "there" there yet. Atom has a better model for comment relationships, but it hasn't bee a top priority

13:57:51 <setre> bitsko: I see, thanks. Does any crawler rss-comment-feeds today? I guess blogging with track/pingbacks is better for availability.

13:58:43 <bitsko> track/pingbacks are a different beast. anything that follows links should be able squeeze semantics out of that. standard web.

13:59:55 <bitsko> there was a recent discussion in Atom-land about markup (HTML in particular) being opaque to RDF. something to think about.

14:00:06 <setre> URL?

14:00:22 <setre> the wiki?

14:22:59 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

14:40:49 <bitsko> setre: http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/1643.html

14:41:51 <bitsko> and thread leading up to http://imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg00955.html

14:59:34 <setre> bitsko: thanks

15:09:17 <jkral> hi Arnia

15:09:31 <Arnia> Hiya jkral

15:09:54 <jkral> how is it going

15:12:50 <Arnia> Going ok. Dissertation hell atm though

15:48:42 <jllykifshy> jllykifshy is now known as jllykifsh

16:14:20 <swh> New version of 3store out: http://triplestore.aktors.org/releases/2.2.13/

16:14:29 <swh> inc. RH9 RPMs, finally

16:32:13 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

16:32:16 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

16:50:01 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

17:41:22 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

18:33:12 * Arnia is away: Food fit for kings shall we ever eat...

22:17:26 <CaptSolo> hi all :)

22:19:36 <sbp> hey there