Semantic Web Interest Group IRC Chat Logs for 2003-12-04

09:28:32 Topic now Semantic Web hack-n-chat http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/ latest logs http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/latest wiki http://esw.w3.org/topic/FrontPage

09:28:32 Users on #rdfig: logger caz larsbot grove_ Dorward kao KateS chillywilly iwaim DanCon xover eikeon dc_rdfig karlcow CaptSolo dngor kota DanC deltab workbench chrisc josek Arnia jql sandro ericP eaon|zZz earle Wack roGer^work LotR anselm2 swh arnarl danbri grove mmealling setre jmb kasei sh1mmer jordan GabeW datum tansaku eikco sbp MarkB golbeck md-afk Davey

09:28:32 <NickServ> Password accepted - you are now recognized

09:28:32 <MemoServ> You have no new memos

09:28:32 <ChanServ> [#rdfig] This channel is logged and blogged: http://logicerror.com/rdfIRCWelcome

10:31:41 <dajobe>http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/12/03/gss.html

10:31:42 <dc_rdfig> A: http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/12/03/gss.html from dajobe

10:31:55 <dajobe> A:|Styling RDF Graphs with GSS by Emmanuel Pietriga, XML.com

10:31:55 <dc_rdfig> Titled item A.

10:37:10 <dajobe>http://mmm.semanticweb.org/mr3/

10:37:10 <dc_rdfig> B: http://mmm.semanticweb.org/mr3/ from dajobe

10:37:22 <dajobe> B:|MR^3 - Meta-Model Management based on RDFs Revision Reflection

10:37:22 <dc_rdfig> Titled item B.

10:37:33 <dajobe> B:*an editing tool of RDF-based contents developed for managing a relationship between RDF and RDFS contents*

10:37:33 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B1.

10:37:54 <dajobe> B:it's graphical and compares itself with IsaViz

10:37:54 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B2.

10:38:16 <dajobe> B:by Naoki Sugiura

10:38:16 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B3.

10:39:12 <Wack> wooi, graphical representation

10:39:21 <dajobe> B:+[http://panda.cs.inf.shizuoka.ac.jp/mmm/img/mr3_rdfs_screenshot_s.png]

10:39:22 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B4.

10:39:29 <dajobe> B:+[http://panda.cs.inf.shizuoka.ac.jp/mmm/img/mr3_rss_screenshot_s.png]

10:39:30 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B5.

10:39:36 * dajobe thinks we need more pics here

10:39:55 <dajobe> A:+[http://www.xml.com/2003/12/03/graphics/full_s_450.png]

10:39:56 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A1.

10:43:26 <Wack> mr^3 has biggers versions of the images you added to the chump

10:43:30 <Wack> (e.g. http://panda.cs.inf.shizuoka.ac.jp/mmm/img/mr3_rdfs_screenshot.png)

10:43:53 <dajobe> yes, so I wasn't using them

10:45:17 <Wack> oh wait, they are inline in the chump html, that makes sense ;)

10:45:39 <dajobe> B2:a graphical tool in Java by Naoki Sugiura

10:45:40 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment B2.

10:45:47 <dajobe> B3:""

10:45:47 <dc_rdfig> Deleted comment B3.

10:55:42 <dajobe> B2:a graphical tool in Java by Naoki Sugiura and others

10:55:42 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment B2.

11:31:41 <dajobe> dc_rdfig & rdfig.xmlhack.com going away for a reboot

11:54:02 <sbp> typo on rdfig.xmlhack.com

11:54:06 <sbp> s/ESE/ESW/

11:54:17 <sbp> (in "Nearby")

11:57:01 <dajobe> yeah

12:23:26 <dajobe> sbp: what do you mean by "queryable store" for pyrple?

12:23:29 <dajobe> a query language?

12:25:27 * dajobe decides, no

12:25:37 <sbp> a Graph class which one can perform queries upon, at the API level. I tinkered with a Squish interface to it

12:26:10 <dajobe> a graph api

12:26:17 <dajobe> not query, as query language

12:26:56 <dajobe> sorry, but I find your code hard to read

12:27:16 <sbp> it's quite terse, yes

12:27:55 <dajobe> I see bindings in there so I'm guessing it's an API level query/variable bindings

12:28:01 <dajobe> like a query language without the language

12:28:05 <sbp> right

12:28:10 <dajobe> well, write that down!

12:28:29 <dajobe> does it have a persistent store?

12:28:33 <sbp> I thought that "queryable store" captured it! I also didn't think anyone would care :-)

12:28:54 <dajobe> queryable means query language to mos tpeople I'd guess

12:29:04 <sbp> experimental marshalling, but mainly in memory for now. local experimentation with persistent storage, though...

12:29:11 <sbp> hmm. fair enough

12:29:38 * dajobe writes & rewrites descriptions

12:29:58 <sbp> I've got some builtins/constraints code that I ought to add for the next version, too

12:30:06 <sbp> so at the moment, it's query without constraints

12:30:22 * sbp fiddles with the homepage

12:32:28 <sbp> "It has in-memory storage with API-level querying, experimental marshalling..."

12:33:00 <dajobe> marshalling, I hardly ever see that term

12:33:12 <dajobe> you mean writing the objects out

12:33:44 <dajobe> or do you?

12:33:52 <sbp> yes. Python has its own marshalling module--you can kinda slurp and burp objects to files very quickly

12:33:54 <dajobe> maybe it means something to pythoneers

12:34:24 <sbp> it's like pickle/cPickle, but only works for base python objects

12:34:34 <sbp> whereas pickle is slower but works on anything

12:34:35 <dajobe> as if I knew what pickle was

12:34:45 <dajobe> object => sequence of bytes

12:34:49 <sbp> really? well. it's like marshalling :-)

12:35:09 <sbp> yeah. well, object => file, which is irritating: you have to use file-like objects

12:35:29 <dajobe> a file-like thing is a sequence of bytes

12:36:29 <sbp> true, but sometimes you only want to shunt strings about, not files

12:36:42 <mdupont> hi all

12:36:53 <sbp> for example, if you actually just want the bytes and don't want to mess about with files on the filesystem, you need to use StringIO

12:37:00 <dajobe> that's why I said sequence of bytes; if one of those jargon terms only allows files, that's python's problem

12:37:31 <sbp> fair enough :-)

12:38:01 <dajobe> this is what java calls object seriaization I think

12:38:18 <dajobe> as used for java beans

12:38:29 <sbp> lots of the stdlib is like that for Python, using files instead of strings. bad design, but it's old, so maybe forgivable

12:39:11 <dajobe>http://infomesh.net/pyrple/

12:39:11 <dc_rdfig> C: http://infomesh.net/pyrple/ from dajobe

12:39:20 <dajobe> C:|Pyrple RDF API by Sean B. Palmer (sbp)

12:39:21 <dc_rdfig> Titled item C.

12:39:25 <dajobe> logger, chump c

12:39:25 <dajobe> C:See [http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2003-12-04#T12-39-25|discussion]

12:39:26 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C1.

12:39:40 <dajobe> C:|Pyrple Python RDF API by Sean B. Palmer (sbp)

12:39:40 <dc_rdfig> Titled item C.

12:40:10 <sbp> I like the chump feature of logger. now we just need it to nag people to title their chumpages and so forth...

12:40:47 <dajobe> I'm trying it out in different ways. Sometimes before a discussion to trigger it, afterwards to record it.

12:41:33 <sbp> risky doing it before, given how much conversations meander

12:42:06 <sbp> though perhaps people will feel more obligated to talk on topic then...

12:42:57 <sbp> I'm looking forward to benchmarking various different approaches to persistent storage. at the moment, when I want persistent storage I just dump to N-Triples

12:43:22 <dajobe> that's sufficient but was not designed for that

12:43:55 <dajobe> most of your overhead will be a) I/O b) object con/de-struction

12:44:10 <dajobe> lunch...

12:44:40 <sbp> mainly b), I think, though the N-Triples parser is quite swift

12:44:43 <sbp> enjoy

14:24:47 <dajobe> gah, that MR^3 java installer *sucks*

14:25:06 <dajobe> InstallNowhere would be a better name

14:25:29 <dajobe> B:the MR^3 java installer *sucks*

14:25:29 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B5.

14:26:20 <dajobe> B:to get the thing installing with the JDK you want: sh -x ./mr3_beta1.bin /path/to/usr/bin/java

14:26:20 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B6.

14:26:27 <dajobe> B:since it ignores any PATH you set

14:26:28 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B7.

14:27:18 <dajobe> B7:since it ignores any PATH or JAVA_HOME you set

14:27:18 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment B7.

14:28:46 <dajobe> B:you might want to change the UI language from japanese too

14:28:46 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B8.

14:29:42 <dajobe> B:but apart from that, seems to work

14:29:42 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B9.

16:07:18 Topic now Semantic Web hack-n-chat http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/ latest logs http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/latest wiki http://esw.w3.org/topic/FrontPage

16:07:18 Users on #rdfig: logger Oblomov AndyS caz dajobe LotR eikeon ChrisDodo ndw dc_rdfig darobin_ nmg larsbot grove_ Dorward kao chillywilly iwaim DanCon xover karlcow CaptSolo dngor kota DanC deltab workbench chrisc josek Arnia jql sandro ericP Davey md-afk eaon earle Wack roGer^work anselm2 swh arnarl MarkB sbp eikco tansaku datum GabeW jordan sh1mmer kasei jmb setre mmealling grove danbri

16:07:18 <NickServ> Password accepted - you are now recognized

16:07:18 <MemoServ> You have no new memos

16:07:18 <ChanServ> [#rdfig] This channel is logged and blogged: http://logicerror.com/rdfIRCWelcome

16:07:41 <chillywilly> are you guys big fans of the REST arhcitecture?

16:07:50 <chillywilly> architecture even

16:08:34 <dajobe> some people are; try MarkB

16:09:59 <sandro> others of us really don't know what "architecture" means. :-)

16:10:01 <chillywilly> is that Mark Baker contributer to the REST wiki? ;)

16:10:10 <sandro> no doubt

16:10:17 <sandro> I mean: Yes

16:10:21 <chillywilly> heheh

16:10:48 <sandro> note he's 70 hours idle

16:10:57 <chillywilly> woah

17:53:05 <jordan> jordan is now known as young-sprout

18:35:37 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

19:17:39 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

19:30:38 * AaronSw waves from LCS

19:33:40 <chillywilly> hi

19:34:13 * LotR hands chillywilly's owner some thermal underwear

19:34:47 <chillywilly> it's a refernce to the cartoon dag nabbit

19:34:55 <chillywilly> reference even ;)

19:35:02 <LotR> never seen that

19:35:25 <chillywilly> before your time? ;)

19:36:08 <LotR> dunno. maybe wrong locality

19:36:36 <chillywilly> you ever see the woody woodpecker show?

19:36:48 <chillywilly> chillywilly came on w/ that show

19:37:01 <chillywilly> he's a little cartoon penguin

19:37:05 <LotR> oh

19:37:25 <LotR> I've seen woody, but don't remember any penguins

19:37:45 <eikeon> /me remembers chillywilly ;)

19:38:19 <dajobe>http://www.ftrain.com/AWebSiteForHarpers.html

19:38:19 <dc_rdfig> D: http://www.ftrain.com/AWebSiteForHarpers.html from dajobe

19:38:21 <chillywilly>http://mywebpages.comcast.net/acutepenguin/chillywilly.html

19:38:21 <dc_rdfig> E: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/acutepenguin/chillywilly.html from chillywilly

19:38:29 <dajobe> D:|A New Website for Harper's Magazine, Paul Ford

19:38:29 <dc_rdfig> Titled item D.

19:38:48 <dajobe> D:story of the new [http://harpers.org/|Harper's Magazine] website made with semweb tech

19:38:48 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D1.

19:40:46 <LotR> chillywilly: oh, I *do* know him. just didn't know he was called chillywilly :)

19:41:02 <chillywilly> well he is ;)

19:41:25 <chillywilly> what si that dc_rdfig bit doing?

19:41:30 <chillywilly> s/si/is/

19:41:33 <chillywilly> bot

19:41:35 <chillywilly> bah

19:41:38 <chillywilly> can't type

19:42:25 <AaronSw> he puts stuff on http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/

19:42:35 <chillywilly> ok

19:42:38 <chillywilly> hey AaronSw

19:44:09 <chillywilly> I need to learn about RDF ;)

19:44:59 <chillywilly> AaronSw: what do you think about the whole REST v. SOAP thingy?

19:45:14 * chillywilly has been readign up on REST

19:45:20 <chillywilly> reading too

19:45:42 <AaronSw> i think REST

19:45:56 <chillywilly> :P

19:47:37 * chrisc agrees with AaronSw

19:49:03 <chillywilly> the one thing that puzzles me is how to implement the whole sessions and personal data thing in a RESTful way or what is the RESTful solution

19:49:37 <chillywilly> I suppose you just create a resource w/ POST or something

19:49:53 <chillywilly>http://www.foo.com/mypage

19:49:54 <dc_rdfig> F: http://www.foo.com/mypage from chillywilly

19:49:57 <chillywilly> bah

19:50:09 <AaronSw> F:|

19:50:09 <dc_rdfig> Titled item F.

19:50:30 <ndw> Yes, chillywilly, I think that's it. Use POST to change state and representations to communicate the state.

19:50:46 <sbp> hmm. empty titles don't work. that's a shame

19:50:48 <sbp> F:|.

19:50:48 <dc_rdfig> Titled item F.

19:51:28 <chillywilly> what if you wanted to allow customer to store bill/shipping addresses and CC information? create more resources?

19:51:31 <chillywilly> customers

19:52:37 <chillywilly> how do you keep that stuff protected? intial POST w/ u/p creates the my page and then everything under that is HTTP auth protected?

19:52:54 <chillywilly> does that sound RESTful?

19:53:10 <chillywilly> sorry, we need a #rest I think ;)

19:54:49 <chillywilly> you could also email that url to then upon registration?

19:54:54 <chillywilly> the mypage url

19:55:07 <chillywilly> sorry let me know if this is not the right place to discuss such things ;)

20:21:21 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

22:04:27 <md-afk> md-afk is now known as mdupont

22:05:00 <mdupont> peace

22:20:38 <swh> swh is now known as swh_home

22:41:58 <iwaim> iwaim is now known as iwaiAway

22:49:41 <D[a]vey> qb