Semantic Web Interest Group IRC Chat Logs for 2003-12-05

00:01:49 <DanC> .time JST

00:01:50 <datum> Fri, 05 Dec 2003 09:01:49 JST

00:38:15 <eaon> eaon is now known as eaon|zZz

01:16:02 <mdupont> mdupont is now known as ZZzZzZ-md-ZzZzZ

05:03:04 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

05:54:27 <eaon|zZz> eaon|zZz is now known as eaon|unknown

07:18:02 <GNUPredator> GNUPredator is now known as mdupont

08:21:56 <f8dy> f8dy is now known as f8dy|sleeping

10:26:35 <danbri_dna>http://www.apple.com/applescript/folderactions/04.html

10:26:36 <dc_rdfig> A: http://www.apple.com/applescript/folderactions/04.html from danbri_dna

10:26:44 <danbri_dna> A:|Folder Actions in MacOSX

10:26:45 <dc_rdfig> Titled item A.

10:27:13 <danbri_dna> A:Allows event-triggered applescripts to be attached to folders (via a GUI config panel) in Mac OS X>

10:27:14 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A1.

10:27:19 <danbri_dna> A1:Allows event-triggered applescripts to be attached to folders (via a GUI config panel) in Mac OS X.

10:27:19 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment A1.

10:27:32 <danbri_dna> A:SemantiMac things to try:

10:27:32 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A2.

10:28:18 <danbri_dna> A:On add/edit to ~/Library/Calendars/ of .ics files, generate the RDF.

10:28:18 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A3.

10:28:58 <danbri_dna> A:Similar re changes to Music/iTunes/iTunes Music Library.xml or MP3s dropped in that filetree.

10:28:59 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A4.

10:30:03 <danbri_dna> A:Similar, re extraction of XMP metadata from PDFs, EXIF etc from JPEGs in Pictures/iPhoto Library/ and comments/structure from AlbumData.xml

10:30:03 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A5.

10:31:04 <danbri_dna> A:The demo applescript runs on addition of a file to a folder. Things to investigate: work w/ subfolders too? file-edit events? how to make applescript run Python, Perl etc scripts for conversions?

10:31:04 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A6.

10:34:11 <libby> BLURB:SWAD-Europe tshirt meeting, here on #rdfig at 11:00 GMT for an hour

10:34:11 <dc_rdfig> B: SWAD-Europe tshirt meeting, here on #rdfig at 11:00 GMT for an hour from libby

10:34:45 <libby> B:Liz has some designs to show us

10:34:45 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B1.

10:35:04 <dajobe> hi libby

10:37:44 <libby> morning dave

11:00:18 * libby wonders if I got the time wrong for the tshirt meeting :(

11:01:07 <Kate_home> I don't think so, I thought it was 11am too

11:01:32 <libby> ah well, we can hang on for a bit

11:02:16 * danbri_dna types in another window

11:37:20 Topic now Semantic Web hack-n-chat http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/ latest logs http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/latest wiki http://esw.w3.org/topic/FrontPage

11:37:20 Users on #rdfig: logger ephidrina DanC_jam whwhwhwh dajobe Kate_home libby caz_ jeen larsbot grove_ iwaiAway danbri_dna kota Davey mdupont timbl eikco ericP earle eikeon sbp eaon|unknown xover LotR dc_rdfig kao chillywilly CaptSolo dngor DanC deltab workbench chrisc josek Arnia jql Wack roGer^work anselm2 swh_home arnarl danbri grove mmealling setre jmb kasei MarkB datum GabeW young-sprout sh1mmer

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11:37:59 <ephidrina> i think its fixed now tho ...

11:38:25 <libby> hia liz!

11:38:54 <ephidrina> hooray i'm here!

11:38:59 * ephidrina phews

11:39:13 <danbri_dna> lib, did you hear something? ;)

11:39:19 <libby> heh

11:39:20 <danbri_dna> i mean, hi liz!

11:39:21 <libby> yes

11:39:25 <danbri_dna> nice designs

11:39:41 <ephidrina> u like them? not too blue or anything?

11:39:53 <libby> I like the blue

11:39:56 <danbri_dna>http://www.cocolog-nifty.com/

11:39:56 <dc_rdfig> C: http://www.cocolog-nifty.com/ from danbri_dna

11:40:09 <danbri_dna> C:|Cocolog, Nifty's TypePad-based weblog service

11:40:09 <dc_rdfig> Titled item C.

11:40:16 <libby> how do we make the logger chump the discussion again?

11:40:37 <danbri_dna> C:Uses Six Apart's TypePad software, each weblog has a FOAF file. (url + foaf.rdf)

11:40:37 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C1.

11:41:06 <danbri_dna> C:There are apparently 5m Nifty customers who can get a free account on this...

11:41:06 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C2.

11:41:10 <swh_home> swh_home is now known as swh

11:41:11 * danbri_dna sorry for the distraction

11:41:15 <ephidrina> did u say anything important in my absense?

11:41:28 <libby> no, we were waiting for you :)

11:41:38 <libby> are you ok with chumping your designs?

11:41:50 <ephidrina> yeh np :)

11:41:51 <dajobe> libby: make a chump item then do 'logger, chump d'

11:42:00 <danbri_dna> you can inline the images if they're not huge

11:42:06 <danbri_dna> +[url] or similar

11:42:22 <ephidrina> they're kinda big - i'd link ti them

11:42:26 <libby> logger, chump B

11:42:26 <libby> B:See [http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2003-12-05#T11-42-26|discussion]

11:42:26 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B2.

11:42:30 <ephidrina> ti/to

11:42:33 <libby> thanks dave

11:42:38 <libby> ok, cool liz

11:43:14 <danbri_dna> hi graham

11:43:28 <gk> Hi Danbri

11:43:28 <libby> B:Liz's designs: [http://liz.xtdnet.nl/swad/front_men.gif|men's front],[http://liz.xtdnet.nl/swad/front_women.gif|women's front], [http://liz.xtdnet.nl/swad/back_men.gif|back]

11:43:29 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B3.

11:43:37 <libby> heya gk!

11:44:17 <libby> B:comments welcome :)

11:44:17 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B4.

11:44:34 <gk> Hi libby

11:45:35 <libby> so does anyone have any comments on Liz's design?

11:45:44 * libby likes it very much

11:45:56 <ephidrina> danbri, are you ok with the "we all built the semantic web" ?

11:46:03 <Kate_home> So do I, and I like blue!

11:46:10 * gk hunts the logs for a URI

11:46:11 <danbri_dna> re wording, I think this design shows we've enough room for 6 words, so switching 'all built' to 'helped build' would imho better capture the spirit of SW collab...

11:46:17 <danbri_dna> gk, see rdfig.xmlhack.com

11:47:24 <gk> Got it, thanks

11:49:44 * gk tries to figure the difference between men's and women's front (of T shirt)

11:49:57 <libby> slightly different colour?

11:50:45 * libby glad gk added "of tshirt" there ;)

11:50:49 <gk> Ah, so it is. I think I like the women's colour better (on my lousy monitor, anyway)

11:51:04 <ephidrina> gk, its the same print on a different t-shirt

11:51:54 <libby> so, ephidrina, you don;t like 'helped build' as much as 'all built', but would you be willing to change it?

11:52:09 <ephidrina> i'm looking at it just now libby

11:52:43 <gk> I agree the spirit of Dan's comment ... thinking about alts

11:54:00 <ephidrina> looks ok - i still prefer "all built"

11:54:10 <ephidrina> but the customer is king :)

11:54:32 <libby> cheers liz. sorry to compromise your artistic integrity ;)

11:54:51 <danbri_dna> thanks, appreciated... (dumbass customers...) the reasoning behind preferring help is a bit involved, but i think, sound...

11:55:26 <danbri_dna> basically what the SW needs, as it starts to take off, is modesty...

11:55:33 <gk> "all built" flows better if you read it aloud. I am guessing that it also gives a more pleasing progression of elipse sizes?

11:55:45 <ephidrina> gk - exactly

11:56:38 <danbri_dna> (surfacing an offchannel comment to ephidrina): an anonymous female commentator mentioned that the brains line up over boobs, so might raise staring-at-chest issues

11:57:07 <ephidrina> then she shouldn't be wearing a close fitting t-shirt

11:57:10 <danbri_dna> (or, might..., depends on the printing and tshirt shape:)

11:57:12 <danbri_dna> heh

11:57:45 * danbri_dna happy as ever to raise the tone of discussions in #rdfig -- that's what SWAD-Europe is all about ;)

11:57:56 <ephidrina> or, at least a shirt without a print at all

11:58:49 <gk> A thought "We all advanced the semantic web"... less claim that "built", and pun on SWAD?

11:59:09 <danbri_dna> sounds like, 'lent money too'

11:59:12 <danbri_dna> :)

11:59:18 <dajobe> no url on the t-shirt anywhere?

11:59:34 <danbri_dna> who really types in urls from t-shirts?

11:59:41 <ephidrina> oh yeh - tell me a url, i'll put it on the back

11:59:42 <danbri_dna> .google semantic web europe

11:59:43 <datum> semantic web europe: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/

11:59:48 <gk> Th idea itself is naff... I'm trying to spark poss alternates

12:00:24 <danbri_dna> yeah, help w/ other wording would be good, i'm sympathetic to 'helped' reading clunky, but want something more explicitly collaborative if poss

12:00:54 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

12:01:09 <gk> Thinking about words like gardeners tending gardens... cultivate, propagate, etc...

12:01:16 <ephidrina> dan, imho, the collaboration is implicit in the graphics

12:01:33 <ephidrina> and all is a lovely inclusive word

12:04:04 Topic now Semantic Web hack-n-chat http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/ latest logs http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/latest wiki http://esw.w3.org/topic/FrontPage

12:04:04 Users on #rdfig: logger dajobe caz_ gk ephidrina DanC_jam Kate_home libby jeen larsbot grove_ iwaiAway danbri_dna kota D[a]vey mdupont timbl eikco ericP earle eikeon sbp eaon|unknown xover LotR dc_rdfig kao chillywilly CaptSolo dngor DanC deltab workbench chrisc josek Arnia jql Wack roGer^work anselm2 swh arnarl MarkB datum GabeW young-sprout sh1mmer kasei jmb setre mmealling grove danbri

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12:04:49 <gk> "... fostered ..."?

12:05:39 * danbri_dna noses around wordnet for synonyms

12:05:44 <dajobe> hacked, developed, coded

12:06:05 <danbri_dna> reified? :/

12:06:24 <gk> :-) I thought of that but didn't post

12:06:27 <ephidrina> meanwhile ... http://liz.xtdnet.nl/swad/front_women2.gif

12:06:28 <dajobe> or deify as shirky would say

12:06:40 <gk> :-))

12:06:54 <danbri_dna> "reify" is doubly cute, intellectually, but a tad obscure.

12:07:39 <danbri_dna> thanks liz, yes, 'helped' is a bit bulbous :(

12:07:49 <gk> "wove"?

12:08:00 <ephidrina> i do think six bubbles is the optimum number

12:08:03 <danbri_dna> maybe we should try it in French?

12:08:36 <gk> Wove might also be punning on the clothing

12:08:38 * ephidrina advises you stick to english

12:08:53 <danbri_dna> mostly joking

12:09:02 <danbri_dna> 6, yup.

12:09:12 <ephidrina> wove? spun!

12:09:19 <ephidrina> that's what spiders do ...

12:09:27 <gk> Alliteration with semantic?

12:09:33 <dajobe> and spinning/hype

12:09:39 <gk> BTW, TBL's book was titled "weaving the web"

12:10:08 <danbri_dna> nono to 'spinning', we're not a plug for http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0262062321/103-0245952-0752640?v=glance

12:10:16 <ephidrina> we spin the semantic web ....

12:10:58 <ephidrina> oh dear - can't have that :|

12:11:19 <danbri_dna> I'd like to ping some more colleagues, w3 comm team, timbl re weave, etc. over next week, if that's OK... re wording options...

12:11:38 <danbri_dna> having the visual drafts done is a big help with that...

12:11:42 <ephidrina> hmm - please bear in mind layout issues ....

12:11:43 <dajobe> link?

12:12:20 <danbri_dna> link? rdfig.xmlhack.com links all i meant

12:12:47 <danbri_dna> liz, yeah quite, would likely be to seek blessing for one of the slogans currently drafted

12:13:05 <danbri_dna> or see if anyone comes up w/ something clever

12:13:20 <dajobe> no, link instead of weave/spin/built. I prefer built

12:13:35 <danbri_dna> ah right

12:14:25 <Kate_home> I agree, if t-shirt is intended europe or wider the verb 'to build' 'to help' is probably more widely known than 'to weave' etc

12:14:27 <danbri_dna> Oh mail from Alberto,

12:14:28 <danbri_dna> the Italian phrasing should more correctly be instead:

12:14:28 <danbri_dna> "e tutto quello che abbiamo ottenuto e' questa stupida maglietta"

12:15:10 <danbri_dna> Kate, yeah, I remember hearing from someone (Spanish?) who found 'harvesting' etc metaphors really confusing when translated.

12:15:18 <danbri_dna> metaphors don't all carry well...

12:16:22 <ephidrina> tnx dan - is there a better word than stupida?

12:16:30 * ephidrina pastes it into the design

12:17:00 * danbri_dna has no idea

12:17:06 <danbri_dna> he also says 't-shirt' works too

12:18:18 <danbri_dna> C:I found a [http://www.cocolog-nifty.com/izumi/izumi04.htm|page] mentioning the rss and foaf support, but my Japanese doesn't extend beyond recognising about 4 katakana symbols

12:18:19 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C3.

12:18:39 <danbri_dna> OK so next steps?

12:19:09 <danbri_dna> I'll circulate it around w3c folks... any particular direction/focus you'd like to elicit comments on, Liz?

12:19:28 <danbri_dna> you mentioned that folks shouldn't go crazy re sloganeering without thinking of the layout impact.

12:19:37 <ephidrina> um - not really dan - anything and everything

12:19:48 <danbri_dna> 'k

12:19:59 <ephidrina> yeh if we can do it with 6 words, that's great

12:20:14 <libby> I guess we need to think what languages we want...

12:20:15 <gk> Tag have recent experience at constructing Haiku ... maybe they can redirect the discipline ;-)

12:20:30 <ephidrina> get as many languages on the back as possible too :)

12:20:46 <danbri_dna> Haiku?:) how come?

12:20:47 <ephidrina> and the swad logo - how sensitive is that?

12:21:13 <danbri_dna> I heard one from gerald: "The Web is / the sum of human knowledge / click here for porn"

12:21:58 <danbri_dna> logo ... it was cooked up from taking eric miller's rdf logo thing and wrapping it in eu logo, is not as sensitive as, say, the W3C logo. But I'd like to check with him (Eric M).

12:22:29 <gk> Danbri, In the sense of compressing an idea into a prescribed form

12:22:55 <danbri_dna> gk, ah right. they're not taking sbp's document standards-track then?

12:22:57 * ephidrina nods - i'm just wondering if i can change the lettering slighty

12:23:01 <danbri_dna> .google sean rdf haiku

12:23:03 <datum> sean rdf haiku: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-interest/2002Oct/0040.html

12:26:22 Topic now Semantic Web hack-n-chat http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/ latest logs http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/latest wiki http://esw.w3.org/topic/FrontPage

12:26:22 Users on #rdfig: logger caz_ dajobe karlcow gk ephidrina DanC_jam Kate_home libby jeen larsbot grove_ iwaiAway danbri_dna kota D[a]vey mdupont timbl eikco ericP earle eikeon sbp eaon|unknown xover LotR dc_rdfig kao chillywilly Wack roGer^work anselm2 swh arnarl danbri grove mmealling setre jmb kasei sh1mmer young-sprout GabeW datum MarkB jql Arnia josek chrisc workbench deltab DanC dngor CaptSolo

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12:26:24 <danbri_dna> I can send mail today, give folks a week to reply seems reasonable.

12:26:44 <ephidrina> sounds fine to me - i can work on brain in the meantime

12:26:48 <libby> ok, we don;t have a very tight deadline for getting the shirts, should be ok

12:26:50 <danbri_dna> cool

12:27:04 <danbri_dna> oh i had a thought re the brain... wondered what folk thought of the brain stem danglies...

12:27:14 <libby> and we can work on what langauges we need and checking that they're correct

12:27:26 <ephidrina> re deadline - it's more important that you decide numbers and sizes of shirts

12:27:27 <danbri_dna> it is less cutesy than many graphical brains, actually looks like it ripped from top of spine, stringy bits etc

12:27:36 <ephidrina> because we will have to order tham

12:27:47 <gk> s/built/forged/ ?

12:27:47 <danbri_dna> which i like, but wondered if might have impact on appealingness...

12:27:55 <ephidrina> yeh i want them all to trail spimal column hehehe

12:27:56 <danbri_dna> s/forged/faked/ ?

12:28:07 <libby> ok, cool liz. will make sure we make a decision

12:28:09 <danbri_dna> forged is ambiguous, unfortuately

12:28:15 <danbri_dna> ta lib, liz

12:28:36 <gk> In what sense ambiguous?

12:28:46 <libby> faked :)

12:28:51 <danbri_dna> made it; faked it.

12:28:59 <gk> Duh!

12:29:19 <ephidrina> we all worked the semantic web

12:30:13 <libby> oh liz, would it affect costs significantly if we ordered some and then maybe some more later?

12:30:23 <ephidrina> yes libby

12:30:33 <libby> ok, that's useful to know

12:30:52 <ephidrina> it's only really cost-effective to order 100 or more at a time

12:30:54 <danbri_dna> I would like a lot, so I (er, we :) can give them to deserving developers away without worrying...

12:31:04 * libby suspects 100+25 is too few

12:31:08 <danbri_dna> word order up messed there

12:31:21 * libby inclided to go for 250+25

12:32:27 <ephidrina> hehe and sell what u can't give away

12:32:40 <danbri_dna> :)

12:32:57 <gk> formed? (puns on transitive/intrasitive interpretation)

12:33:09 <danbri_dna> should save some budget for mailing them out to people btw.

12:34:01 <libby> does everyone feel happy about next steps?

12:34:30 * danbri_dna does

12:35:02 <swh> swh is now known as swh_lunch

12:35:41 <libby> B:todo - talk to W3C and rest of SWAD-E team about design, decide on numbers, decide on languages, check langauge text; final decision on slogans

12:35:41 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B5.

12:35:44 * danbri_dna realises he has been listening to "Echo Beach" MP3 for an hour

12:35:51 <libby> heh

12:35:52 <ephidrina> yep - would be nice to have t-shirt nos before xmas

12:35:58 <libby> thouht it was rather long song

12:36:07 <libby> ok, will make sure about that LIz

12:37:03 <gk> How's life out there in the rest of the SW world... I seem to have been somewhat isolated of late.

12:38:34 <libby> what have you been doing gk?

12:39:17 <danbri_dna> gk, interesting times... rdfcore and owl in endgame; phase 2 discussions ramping up...

12:39:42 <gk> Pushing ahead with my Haskell datatype inference code ... nearly ready for release. Then I'll see if I can use it in a real application.

12:40:29 <gk> I've recently been taking a little more notice of Owl. I think the specs are well organized.

12:41:40 <gk> Re Phase 2, I think JimH made a very good case regarding some kind of "remote access" protocol.

12:43:33 * danbri_dna too leaning towards a simple net protocol instead of a fancy QL

12:43:48 <danbri_dna> tap, netapi, annotea, pics-service etc...

12:44:24 <gk> You're working with all of those?

12:44:52 <danbri_dna> nope, they're all similar...

12:45:14 * danbri_dna made a read-only annotea server implementation once, was simple enough to do given an rdfquery system

12:46:30 <gk> Ah, yes. I'm not sure how important is RW vs RO; Annotea suggests a need for RW?

12:46:47 <danbri_dna> they want a way to write annotations into the web.

12:47:07 <danbri_dna> my anno server was a dissemination point for web-harvested data, so RW didn't make sense. it wasnt a data-hosting service.

12:49:21 <gk> But I suppose creating just RO technology biases toward big info-provider interests. The Internet was/is an opportunity for pushback against control of information.

12:50:29 <danbri_dna> i see yr point, but in this case i don't see it as a worry: the approach i prototyped was a harvest of little-guy info sources.

12:50:45 <danbri_dna> having a single read/write anno database creates a single point of legal/technical attack

12:50:59 <danbri_dna> eg. 3rd voice, napster...

12:51:25 <libby> bye liz, thanks again!

12:51:31 <danbri_dna> having multiple search engines operating over crawled data makes each little src safer than if they went via a big central db

12:51:41 <gk> I see. My comment was aimed towards scope of possible access standard: RO would be much simpler, but would it be enough?

12:51:42 <danbri_dna> yes, thanks liz! its coming on nicely :) :)

12:52:05 <danbri_dna> q is, would it advance the state of the art...?

12:52:21 <ephidrina> tnx guys :)

12:52:22 <danbri_dna> there's a diff between a query api and a data management api

12:52:31 <danbri_dna> the latter would stink unless it did provenance etc

12:52:41 <danbri_dna> for query, you can just about get away without it

12:53:16 <gk> I think making it easy to integrate different systems would advance SOA. Ack your points about data management.

12:54:33 <danbri_dna> i'm interested in your datatype-related findings, degree to which rdf query spec(s) can deal w/ datatypes, user-defined datatypes etc.

13:00:07 * gkgk lost connection... message lost

13:02:02 <gkgk> Re datatypes: My thrust has been to explore framework for user-definable datatypes (using Haskell as a host for defining new ones), but ideally being able to use them in ordinary RDF data. Broadly I have two strategies: one is simple rules modified with datatype awareeness; it works well enough, but doesn't really fit well with existing systems. The other uses the general pattern of an Owl restriction, and once defined can be accessed in

13:04:03 <gkgk> I'm just wrapping it in a simple script processor, so it can be seen in action without Haskell programming.

13:05:44 <danbri_dna> interesting re owl 'vs' (ahem) rules...

13:06:03 <danbri_dna> I think we've collective work to do in figuring out what can be done with OWL before wading into standardising too much new stuff

13:06:34 <gkgk> Did you see the exploratory notes I put up? Including a little survey of existing systems.

13:07:04 <gkgk> Here: http://www.ninebynine.org/RDFNotes/RDF-Datatype-inference.html

13:07:09 <danbri_dna> I think I saw them briefly and thought 'hmm better read that pricey Haskell book i bought so i can play with this stuff'

13:08:43 <gkgk> My hope is that with my script wrapper, you can play with my stuff a little without Haskell programming. And also, to serves as a starting point for writing new programs.

13:09:21 <danbri_dna> that'll be useful hopefully shortly... I want to try doing some company accounting formula in rdf, in xform, and in mathml... show contrasts across w3c specs

13:09:43 <gkgk> (Doing an imperative script processor in a pure functional language is an interesting exercise.)

13:10:22 <danbri_dna> :)

13:11:40 <gkgk> ... monads for computing monads, script as higher order function, mumble ...

13:12:41 <gkgk> Oh look, it's lunch time. Bye all, it was good chatting.

13:13:07 <libby> bye gk, nice to see you

13:13:38 <gkgk> Thanks, bye.

13:16:22 <danbri_dna> cu

13:32:52 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

13:34:38 <libby> heya ndw

13:35:00 <ndw> Hi libby

13:35:37 <libby> do you like the swad-e tshirt? http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/2003/12/05/2003-12-05.html#1070620451.543022

13:36:47 <danbri_dna> hi ndw

13:36:54 <ndw> hi danbri_dna

13:37:02 * danbri_dna starting to think about xml2003 practical rdf thing nxt week...

13:37:14 * ndw distracted by PER call. Back in a few

13:37:17 <danbri_dna> do you think live online demos are feasible?

13:37:18 <danbri_dna> okay

13:37:19 <ndw> Yes, I like the design, libby

13:37:24 <libby> excellent :)

13:37:37 <ndw> ndw is now known as ndw^distracted

13:37:53 <libby> C:whoa! neat. scalability...cough

13:37:54 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C4.

13:40:12 <verbosus> Libby, ARGH!

13:40:32 <swh_lunch> swh_lunch is now known as swh

13:40:33 <verbosus> That Italian on the back of the t-shirt is crap ;-)

13:40:54 <libby> heh, it's only a drafty draft verbosus :)

13:41:07 <verbosus> fiiiuuuuu

13:41:12 <danbri_dna> hi verbosus. yeah, Alberto sent a fix...

13:41:20 <verbosus> Ciao danbri_dna.

13:41:24 <verbosus> Cool.

13:41:33 <libby> he reckonned: "e tutto quello che abbiamo ottenuto e' questa stupida maglietta"

13:41:46 <libby> or t-shirt indead of 'maglietta'

13:41:55 <verbosus> Yeah, much better.

13:42:04 <libby> excellent :)

13:42:05 <verbosus> “maglietta” is more appropriate.

13:42:21 <libby> one down, er 15 to go?

13:42:28 <libby> rather than tshirt?

13:42:42 <verbosus> BTW, danbri: I’m still exhiled from rdfweb-dev.

13:43:09 <verbosus> Libby: "maglietta" is what we use in Italy for "t-shirt".

13:43:13 <danbri_dna> Odd. I can reinvestigate.

13:43:49 <libby> k, thanks

13:45:34 <verbosus> danbri: I’m reading the RestaurantRecommendation page on the ESW wiki right now.

13:46:18 <verbosus> Someone wrote: "All this means that restaurant reviews tend to be less controvercial than many other kinds of reviews."

13:47:01 <verbosus> That is incredibly false here in Italy: I’ve been to a conference last day, where the main journalists of gastronomic stuff basically said they are being censored by restaurants.

13:47:12 <libby> ouch

13:47:25 <libby> didnl;t that happen in france with mcdonalds too

13:47:36 <libby> also you could destroy someone's livelihood!

13:47:44 <verbosus> If someone starts to get sued too many times, they get fired from their newspaper/telly program/magazine.

13:47:46 <dajobe>http://yergler.net/projects/ccrdf/

13:47:47 <dc_rdfig> D: http://yergler.net/projects/ccrdf/ from dajobe

13:47:58 <dajobe> D:|ccRdf - python creative commons RDF classes

13:47:59 <dc_rdfig> Titled item D.

13:48:16 <dajobe> D:uses [http://rdflib.net/|rdflib]

13:48:16 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D1.

13:51:44 <dajobe> hey, you got your first 2 t-shirt orders already

13:52:46 <libby> yeah :)

13:53:45 <dajobe> now what was that about semweb business plans? :)

13:54:35 <dajobe> which reminds me http://www.asemantics.com/people/iswc-2003-img/1.jpg

13:55:27 <libby> oh good pic

13:56:15 <libby> heh, and all the rdf is alreday there :)

13:57:24 <danbri_dna> ah yeah, http://www.asemantics.com/people/iswc-2003-img/index.rdf :)

14:09:17 * timbl browsing the swhaiku, catching up in the log

14:09:40 <timbl> Also: N-Triples--

14:09:41 <timbl> a former N3 subset,

14:09:43 <timbl> now its own format.

14:09:50 <danbri_dna> tim, any thoughts re tshirt design appreciated...

14:09:59 <timbl> wot, the brains?

14:10:17 <danbri_dna> yeh

14:10:26 <timbl> i didn't get th point of that

14:10:27 <danbri_dna> and slogan...

14:10:34 <danbri_dna> cant explain, gotta run to ilrt

14:10:38 <danbri_dna> libby?

14:10:51 <timbl> Has anyone got a lit s of where NTriples departs from N3?

14:11:20 <timbl> (where "departs from" is symmetric ;-)

14:11:26 <dajobe> depends on what you define n3 as tim :)

14:11:51 <ericP> libby, i was going to add treehugger to the RDF query survey

14:11:55 <libby> re brains - I guess emphasising that the humans helped build the sw, as well as the sw sorta linking peoples' brains, indirectly

14:12:04 <ericP> can i pester you with questions when they come up?

14:12:10 <libby> oh cool ericp

14:12:25 <libby> sure. shellac knows more - I'll get him on

14:12:26 <ericP> or, actually, would you like to phrase the reference query in terms of treehugger for me?

14:12:30 <ericP> then i don't have to do anything

14:12:34 <libby> heh

14:12:37 <ericP> except a bit of typing

14:12:37 * libby asks shellac

14:12:40 <ericP> i'm good at typing

14:12:53 <ericP> whatch me tyep

14:13:25 <timbl> Well, say dadobe, say the N3 as in the BNF in n3 to take an arbitrary example.

14:14:21 <libby> also re brains, they remind me of the ones out of futurama, which I see as positive ;)

14:15:29 <libby> this the document you are talking about ericp? http://www.w3.org/2001/11/13-RDF-Query-Rules/

14:15:59 <ericP> yup

14:16:49 * shellac is summoned by libby

14:17:02 <ericP> also, anyone know if there is a defined grammar for RDQL?

14:17:06 <ericP> hiya shellac

14:17:12 <libby> there's a BNF somewhere

14:17:26 <libby> shellac: <ericP>libby, i was going to add treehugger to the RDF query survey

14:17:33 <libby> <ericP>or, actually, would you like to phrase the reference query in terms of treehugger for me?

14:17:42 <libby> - http://www.w3.org/2001/11/13-RDF-Query-Rules/

14:17:51 <ericP> don't forget the part about how i'm good at typing

14:17:59 <shellac> I can have a go - XSLT & XQuery?

14:18:03 <libby> heh

14:18:12 <ericP> XSLT?

14:18:31 <ericP> was there an XSLT component to Treehugger?

14:18:51 <shellac> Yep

14:19:02 <libby> it uses saxon ericp

14:19:15 * ericP rereads pretending he didn't already embarass himself

14:19:17 <shellac> The alpha version (using Saxon 7) does XQuery & XSLT 2.0

14:21:23 <ericP> the RDF Query lang in the introduction is RDQL? or maybe Squish? or some other similar variant?

14:21:47 <chillywilly> hi ppl

14:21:54 <shellac> treehugger intro?

14:22:15 <ericP>http://rdfweb.org/people/damian/treehugger/introduction.html

14:22:15 <dc_rdfig> E: http://rdfweb.org/people/damian/treehugger/introduction.html from ericP

14:22:21 <shellac> abbreviated squish - skips ns decls

14:22:26 <libby> it's squish I think

14:22:57 <ericP> E:|TreeHugger Introduction

14:22:57 <dc_rdfig> Titled item E.

14:23:02 <ericP> libby - tx

14:23:17 <ericP> oh, and shellac - tx

14:23:31 <ericP> is there a grammar for Squish?

14:23:39 <chillywilly> I haven't read much on RDF yet but, afaict, RDF is about a slef reflective/introspection API for the whole web resource model? Would that be a fair assessment?

14:23:46 <chillywilly> self

14:23:52 <ericP> or should I work from the RDQL grammar and adapt?

14:24:12 <libby> here ericp - http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/rdfquery/squish-bnf.html

14:24:16 <chillywilly> erm, not an api

14:24:57 <ericP> chillywilly, i'd say it's more about a system for data expression, but it can be use to represent any level of metadata at the same level that it representd data

14:25:02 <chillywilly> resources which describe resources

14:25:20 <chillywilly> ok

14:25:29 <ericP> which is to say, it represents data and metadata without distinction

14:26:15 <ericP> contrast this with, (oof, what is OMG's language?)

14:27:31 <ericP> oh yes, UML

14:27:52 <chillywilly> UML?

14:27:55 <chillywilly> yea

14:28:06 <ericP> UML has four distinct levels: data model, meta-model and meta-meta-model

14:28:17 <chillywilly> yea

14:28:32 <ericP> beyond that, you start using nudges and smoke signals

14:28:51 <sbp> isn't that three?

14:29:02 <chillywilly> heheh

14:29:04 <sbp> unless you're including the winking and prodding

14:29:07 <ericP> s/data model/data, model/

14:29:15 <sbp> ah

14:29:25 <ericP> say no more, say no more

14:29:29 <sbp> hehheh

14:29:35 <sbp> a nod's as good as a wink to a blind bat

14:29:45 <sbp> eh? eh?

14:29:51 <chillywilly> you ugys familiar with the TUNEs project?

14:29:54 <chillywilly> guys

14:29:56 <chillywilly> bah

14:30:02 <libby> heh

14:30:04 <chillywilly> can't type...

14:30:20 * chillywilly is still sleepy

14:30:28 <sbp> I'mn't

14:30:28 <ericP> bind bat was beyond my python (presumably) ken

14:31:06 <ericP> chillywilly, TUNEs, i've mentioned it in talks, but never actually looked at it

14:31:19 <sbp> ken?

14:32:17 <timbl> dajobe, N3 as in http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/grammar/n3rules-report.html

14:32:40 <ericP> sbp, ken, knowldege or experience, says www.wordsmyth.net

14:32:56 <timbl> It would of course be great to have a proof that one langauge is syntactically a subset of the other.

14:33:11 <sbp> hmm '"!" path': it's a bit old...

14:33:22 <ericP> shellac, are you motivated to port the reference query in the query survey to TreeHugger?

14:33:23 <sbp> ericP: oh! that sense of the word. 'tis a fine northern word

14:33:58 <timbl> dajobe, ooops, sorry - http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/grammar/n3-report.html duh

14:34:11 <chillywilly> when I was looking at the rest model I remember they mentioned a way to automate some things...machine to machine interaction...I was discussing w/ mdupont about exposing the internals or programs in a RESTful way and using RDF you could have programs modifying other programs or have them be morphing into others programs...but maybe I was a bit sleep deprived ;)

14:34:20 <ericP> i'm trying to become better versed in the northern words

14:35:29 <timbl> nawt agin it

14:35:45 <shellac> ericp: just trying the treehugger xslt query.

14:36:20 <shellac> in the squish example you use bindingName, but don't select it. Is that what you want?

14:36:33 <chillywilly> ah, well bbl

14:36:54 <ericP> yeah, carry the bug all the way through for consistency's sake

14:37:34 <ericP> i guess it's not a bug if we say "we only wnat bindings that are valid (have names) but don't care what the name is"

14:38:16 <ericP> perhaps, for clarity's sake, i should go through all the exampels and actually use the bindingName

14:58:35 Topic now Semantic Web hack-n-chat http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/ latest logs http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/latest wiki http://esw.w3.org/topic/FrontPage

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15:02:33 <ericP> any of the bristol crowd going to be at XML2003 in Philadelphia?

15:02:51 * ericP zakim, please unmute me

15:03:14 <libby> danbri's going, guess you knew that...

15:03:36 <libby> none of the ilrters are going, sadly

15:03:44 <ndw> Wrong window, ericP

15:03:46 <ndw> :-)

15:03:49 <ndw> I'll be there

15:04:10 <ericP> ndw, roger (on both)

15:12:20 <shellac> ericP: I've been testing the treehugger stylesheet, and I think your example queries are wrong

15:15:28 <ericP> in what regard?

15:15:51 <ericP> the algae query workds

15:17:14 <shellac> to get to soap:style hangs off a soap:binding which the wsdl:binding wsdl:hasBinding

15:17:22 <shellac> erm - that was gibberish

15:17:44 <shellac> but the squish query won't work, for example

15:18:08 <shellac> (although I might be misreading the xml)

15:19:36 <shellac> the squish says: start at a wsdl:service, it hasPort ?port, ?port binding ?binding

15:20:10 <shellac> ?binding style soap:document

15:21:21 <shellac> I think ?binding hasBinding ?soapBinding, ?soapBinding style soap:document is needed

15:34:07 <ericP> is there a mismatch between the expression of the algae query and the expression of the squish query?

15:35:04 <shellac> I don't think so, looking at it

15:36:44 <shellac> but if you look at http://www.w3.org/2001/03/19-annotated-RDF-WSDL.rdf

15:37:43 <shellac> you see soap:style hanging off a bnode, which can be reached via wsdl:hasBinding

15:38:53 <shellac> only be reached via wsdl:hasBinding, I should say

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17:43:33 <iwaiAway> iwaiAway is now known as iwaim

17:43:45 <DanC> .time JST

17:43:46 <datum> Sat, 06 Dec 2003 02:43:46 JST

17:44:59 <DanC> if EricP is up now, he's in a wierd phase. I'm in a wierd phase. After staying up way too late several nights this week, I went to bed about 9am last night; woke up around 1am, lay in bed 'till 3:30am, then decided to get up and start the day. 'twas nice preparing for breakfast in peace.

17:45:09 <DanC> 9pm last night

17:45:33 <golbeckCrashsafe> golbeckCrashsafe is now known as golbeck

17:45:35 <DanC> Crashsafe? as opposed to...?

17:45:58 <DanC> since when is chatzilla crashsafe?

17:46:32 <eaon|unknown> hehehe

18:57:58 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

21:40:11 <DanC> sandro? got some #rdfig bandwidth? I'm getting happier with http://esw.w3.org/topic/SemanticWebBus as a pattern

21:40:16 <DanC> ... and as a reply to McDermott

21:40:43 <DanC> I just added the swap/trust example, getting us dangerously close to PPR:ThreeExamples

21:41:41 <DanC> phpht. not even sandro's IRC client is here.

21:42:04 * DanC wonders if sbp is around. or aaron

21:42:13 <ndw> In what sense is "Bus" meant in that title?

21:42:53 <DanC> sandro? got some #rdfig bandwidth? I'm getting happier with http://esw.w3.org/topic/SemanticWebBus as a pattern

21:42:56 <DanC> I just added the swap/trust example, getting us dangerously close to PPR:ThreeExamples

21:43:24 <DanC> in the sense of a diagram timbl drew; if I go hunt for it, will you likely be here when I get back, norm? ~5min

21:43:55 <DanC> duh...

21:44:00 <DanC> .google semantic web bus

21:44:01 <datum> semantic web bus: http://www.w3.org/2000/Talks/1206-xml2k-tbl/slide14-0.html

21:44:02 <sandro> mmmm, maybe. working on pubs, which are pretty boring, but good to get done.

21:44:18 * DanC hopes the link validator takes a long time ;-)

21:44:40 <DanC> hmm... that's not the figure I had in mind after all.

21:44:48 <sandro> it's not being snappy today, no. :-)

21:44:53 <ndw> I'll be here

21:45:30 <ndw> that ffigure is also 403

21:45:39 <DanC> ew.

21:46:27 <sandro> and it doesn't do anything for me.

21:46:34 <young-sprout> young-sprout is now known as jordan

21:46:39 <sandro> (as in, the image doesn't help my understanding, etc.)

21:46:46 <DanC> it's the wrong image.

21:46:53 <timbl> I just drew a new bus diagram on the whiteboard for a swiss reporter

21:46:59 <DanC> there's one with heuristic engines above the bus and proof-generating ones below

21:47:14 <DanC> hi tim.

21:47:42 <DanC> norm, danbri and I want to know about audience size, time, etc. at the RDF dog-n-pony. do you know?

21:48:14 <ndw> I think we have 90 minutes, no one knows the audience size until they turn up.

21:48:44 <ndw> I don't know if we'll be tightly constrained to 90 minutes or not, depends if security wants to lock up or not, I think.

21:49:59 * ndw shivers and goes off to make a cup of tea. Man the outside temperature has fallen.

21:50:28 <DanC> any clues on room size, norm?

21:50:41 <DanC> timbl, do you know the bus diagram I'm thinking of?

21:51:30 <DanC> ew... google turns up plagiarism: http://jmvidal.cse.sc.edu/talks/sweb/bus.xml

21:51:53 <DanC> ah... no, timbl's credited.

21:52:01 <DanC> in http://jmvidal.cse.sc.edu/talks/sweb/index.xml?style=White

21:52:51 * ndw doesn't grok the picture, FWIW

21:53:43 <timbl> DanC, is that the one you menat?

21:54:13 <DanC> which? http://jmvidal.cse.sc.edu/talks/sweb/bus.xml is not...

21:54:21 <timbl> In the one i drew today i had within the arrow different colors for different ontoligies, trying to merge tyhje bus idea with the metro diagram.

21:54:26 <DanC> nor is http://www.w3.org/2000/Talks/1206-xml2k-tbl/slide14-0.html

21:55:32 <DanC> no, the one I'm thinking of has one horizontal bus, halfway down the page. it has heuristic engines above and proof generating engines below

21:55:48 <DanC> er.. proof generating and consuming maybe

21:56:33 <timbl> Not the one you fopu d on someone else's talk, http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/diagrams/sweb-bus.svg

21:56:46 <timbl> (.gif etc)

21:58:20 <timbl> Not the one you fopu d on someone else's talk, http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/diagrams/nby1.png ?

21:59:01 * DanC tries another explanation in text:

21:59:17 * timbl SemWebAppMetro.png

21:59:20 <DanC> "On the SemanticWeb bus, many different engines will produce proofs for different sorts of problems, but no one engine is expected to be complete for the whole set of problems. Parties are expected to be complete in their ability to follow a proof generated by any other party, and judge whether it is valid." -- SemanticWebBus of 2003-12-05 15:58:21

21:59:27 <DanC> no, not the metro thing.

22:00:03 <DanC> I must be imagining. my memory has it printed on paper and stuck on your office door, timbl.

22:00:13 <DanC> not sweb-bus.gif

22:00:41 <sandro> I *think* Drew thinks we're trying to solve AI-ish problems, and we're only trying to make distributed software.

22:00:52 <sandro> The thing on his office door was for DAML.

22:00:58 <sandro> (if that helps)

22:01:13 <timbl> ah ... on my door (whioch changes about as often as carbon turns to diamond) there is a DARPA quad chart.

22:01:37 <DanC> my point about anarchic scalability is: you can compose results if they're justified by proofs. If they're not justified, you have to hand-code something that composes them.

22:01:59 <dajobe> a darpa quad? I daren't aske

22:02:18 <sandro> quad == it happened to be a four-part diagram.

22:02:35 <DanC> a "quad chart" is sorta like a "swat chart". strenths/weaknesses/a???/threat.

22:02:53 <sandro> it is?

22:02:55 <sandro> Huh.

22:02:56 <dajobe> lol

22:03:05 <timbl> yes.

22:03:10 <DanC> I think the four-part diagram is pretty deep in DARPA culture. like "gantt chart" and "pert chart"

22:03:11 <sandro> funky

22:03:20 * dajobe knows them, sadly

22:03:27 <sandro> hmmmm.

22:03:43 <sandro> tunnel collapsed, me not go boom?

22:03:51 <DanC> no boom here.

22:04:13 <sandro> Ah, it was irc.w3.org that went down, not homer yet.

22:04:15 * DanC sees boom on other channels

22:04:17 <timbl> Top left is a picture. Bottom left is a timeline.

22:04:34 <DanC> sandrooooooooooo.....?

22:05:13 <timbl> one of the www.w3.org servers has been taken out of the dns rotation, so if yo ucan't get www.w3.org, use a browser which re-checks dns from time to timne, or quit Mozilla and relaod her.

22:05:25 <DanC> whew! thought you fell down a crevasse or something, sandro

22:05:45 <timbl> How do we know that whjat came back is really sandro?

22:05:52 <sandro> I did, but I knew where my ice ax was this time.

22:06:18 <sandro> like something the monkey's paw brought back from the grave.....

22:06:33 * DanC likes IRC cuz you can take risks, assuming somebody is who they say they are, and get away with it mostly, and get near-real-time fix otherwise

22:06:35 <sandro> Mozilla is a her, huh?

22:06:46 <DanC> aye.

22:07:02 <sandro> dont make me LOL or I'll wake the baby

22:07:17 * DanC is in dog-washing mode over XML 2003 foo

22:07:28 <dajobe> 1?

22:07:31 <sandro> what are you presenting?

22:07:42 <DanC> yeah... what am I presenting?

22:07:57 <DanC> probably semantic web travel tools.

22:08:01 * timbl tried toi derefernce dogwashing last time and just get "This wiki page hasn't been written -- wanna write it?"

22:08:31 <DanC> dogwashing =~ procrastinating =~ making a pincushion

22:08:35 * dajobe asks for a DanCMetaphors wiki page ;)

22:08:37 <sandro>http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/d/dogwash.html

22:08:37 <dc_rdfig> F: http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/d/dogwash.html from sandro

22:08:57 <sandro> thanks, chump

22:09:01 * ndw encourages DanC to wash faster

22:09:05 <ndw> :-)

22:09:12 <DanC> pincushion is a midwest u.s. term; maybe local to Ohio or even Cincinnatti

22:09:42 * sandro trying to close dozens and dozens of Mozilla windows for DNS reset

22:09:47 <DanC> if it makes you feel better, ndw, I have slides from Budapest that I can reuse.

22:09:52 <DanC> .google semantic web travel tools

22:09:53 <datum> semantic web travel tools: http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/pim/travel.html

22:10:06 <DanC> that's not the slides

22:10:55 <DanC> travel tool slides... probably too many: http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/0520-www-tf1-d3-travel/

22:11:25 <DanC> hmm.. maybe present RDF calendar, based on some stuff libby's been writing.

22:12:30 <DanC> "he's dead, him". homer's definitely not a her.

22:12:46 <DanC> phpht.

22:12:51 <DanC> "he's dead, Jim". homer's definitely not a her.

22:12:57 * DanC ruined the joke

22:13:12 <ndw> Naw, you just made a different joke

22:17:51 * DanC recovers from the mistake of following a pointer into the jargon file... betcha can't read just one!

22:18:36 <DanC> have I mentioned how cool nxml-mode is lately?

22:18:42 <dajobe> lol

22:19:06 <ndw> Is anyone else getting dropped off the nxml-mode mailing list just about every other day?

22:19:08 <DanC> I had to look up <!--*- nxml -*--> syntax

22:19:33 <dajobe> I just use the auto-mode-alist & suffixes

22:19:47 * DanC reads project mailing lists via http archives, if at all, unless he has pretty clear responsibilities in the project

22:20:31 * ndw reads everything in Emacs, dagnabit

22:20:41 <DanC> I've had so much fun deleting all the <![DOCTYPE[s as I go

22:20:50 <ndw> Oh, yeah!

22:21:20 <DanC> I banish thee to heeeee-- er. ahem.

22:25:50 * ndw wonders if the current W3C server problems could be causing 403 errors? Like I can't get to /2001/tag at the moment!

22:27:21 <eaon|unknown> eaon|unknown is now known as eaon|zZz

22:27:44 <DanC> oh, no, norm. we just don't like you. everybody else is 200. read the message closely: 403 ndw buzz off.

22:27:53 <DanC> :)

22:29:07 <ndw> "Oh, noice" as Onslo would say (c.f. Keeping Up Appearances on your local PBS or BBC affiliate)

22:29:47 <ndw> Or here http://www.tvheaven.ca/kup.htm Onslo is on the upper right.

22:30:27 * ndw is happy to have remembered not to start that line with the URI and had to explain KUP to all of rdfig.xmlhack.com

22:31:57 <DanC> dc_rdfig needs to observe the principle that transactions in IRC commit slowly. it needs a "dc_rdfig, never mind" that works for 25 seconds or something.

22:32:15 <ndw> That would be very nice indeed

22:32:44 <sandro> how about UNDO? Far more systems should support "Forget I said that!"

22:33:08 <_decoy_> and naturally that should be recursive. so that it isn't by any chance easy to code. ;)

22:33:23 <sandro> I'm trying to draft some text explaining RDF Core's negative entailment tests. Here's my current bit. Make sense? =>

22:33:30 <sandro> Negative Entailement Tests are primarily intended to clarify

22:33:30 <sandro> specifications for human develppers, not to be passed by software. To

22:33:30 <sandro> pass such a test, a reasoner must be complete and terminating with

22:33:30 <sandro> respect to the the appropriate semantics (eg RDFS) and associated

22:33:30 <sandro> datatype theories (eg xsd:int, XMLLiteral). Such a reasoner is

22:33:31 <sandro> non-trivial to construct, and (more importantly) is of unknown

22:33:35 <sandro> utility. The expectation is that systems designed to pass Positive

22:33:37 <sandro> Entailment Tests will end up Undecided on the Negative tests,

22:33:39 <sandro> providing evidence that they do not consider every entailment as

22:33:41 <sandro> holding.

22:34:31 <DanC> put "unkown utililty" before non-trivial, and then change non-trivial... er...

22:34:45 <DanC> maybe "not cost-effective to build, given the use cases we know of"

22:34:57 <sandro> cool

22:35:54 <DanC> put "The expectation is that..." first. then justify it

22:36:03 <DanC> people can stop reading after that sentence

22:36:11 <_decoy_> I would also suggest breaking the sentences apart a bit further. lately a lot of rdf work has spun off into a linguistic never-never land.

22:36:26 <sandro> linguistic never-never land?

22:36:44 <DanC> yes, that's one stop short of never-never-never land, where XML schema part 1 lives.

22:36:45 <DanC> ;-)

22:37:03 <_decoy_> sandro: I mean, mile-long sentences, lots of parentheses and commas, and words just about nobody heard of, before. ;)

22:37:33 <DanC> henry thompson's linguistic parser stack is deep, about 4 standard deviations outside the norm.

22:37:51 <sandro> my dad's ontology entails your dad's semantic disjunction datatype mapping?

22:38:06 <_decoy_> danc: indeed. I mean, I'm good with that. always been, both in english and in finnish. but that spec is really rattling me.

22:38:36 <md-afk> md-afk is now known as mdupont

22:41:46 <mdupont> Hi all you RDF interested people. Whats new out there?

23:33:53 * sandro returns from dinner, wonders if homer will ever return.