Semantic Web Interest Group IRC Chat Logs for 2003-12-07

00:14:32 <ericP> danbri, jcom is the cable company from whom i get my packet fix

00:15:29 <ericP> sbp, the grammar for algae's datatypes is in http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/perl/modules/W3C/Rdf/AlgaeParser.yp?rev=HEAD

00:16:44 <ericP> and an example is in http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/perl/modules/W3C/Rdf/test/Ephemoral0-alg.sh?rev=HEAD

00:17:19 <ericP> that's a shell script so it's got an extra layer of escaping for '"'s

00:19:21 <ericP> the reason i asked about the datatypes approach is that mine was kind of awkard, required some look-ahead

00:19:44 <ericP> in fact, i hadn't commited it before now 'cause it offended me

00:42:13 * DanCon waves, just finished paying bills for the week

00:43:10 * DanCon wanders off

02:21:15 <eaon|zZz> eaon|zZz is now known as eaon

05:02:31 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

06:59:17 <labt> hey all

07:48:27 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

11:31:24 <finfin> finfin is now known as mdupont

12:30:35 <mdupont> Does anyone use PHP with rdf?

12:31:10 <mdupont> http://www.wiwiss.fu-berlin.de/suhl/bizer/rdfapi/

12:51:18 <eaon> eaon is now known as eaon|away

13:14:31 <mdupont> mdupont is now known as md-afk-1h

15:13:39 <md-afk-1h> md-afk-1h is now known as mdupont

15:38:01 <DanC>http://www.w3.org/2001/Annotea/

15:38:02 <dc_rdfig> A: http://www.w3.org/2001/Annotea/ from DanC

15:38:09 <DanC> A:|Annotea Project

15:38:09 <dc_rdfig> Titled item A.

15:38:16 <DanC> A:nice homepage layout/organization

15:38:16 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A1.

15:38:30 <DanC> A:hmm... connections to RSS and such? to RDF query WG-to-be?

15:38:30 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A2.

15:39:12 <DanC> A:connections to [http://www.w3.org/2002/05/semwalker/|semwalker]?

15:39:12 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A3.

15:40:48 <DanC> A:Epiphany does bookmarks with RSS and flat topics with dc:subject property, Nature uses RSS for kinds of bookmarks to their documents and Urchin for searching, Sony research project used RSS for image annotations etc. etc.

15:40:48 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A4.

15:41:22 <DanC> A:hmm... RSS as universal delta carrier?

15:41:23 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A5.

15:42:00 <danbri> A:...and Mozilla uses RDF internally as its bookmarking representation, with a toHTML() mechanism for serializing it on disk.

15:42:00 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A6.

15:43:48 <mdupont> hey danbri! i have a test server to try and help the phpgroupware work with the semantic web, if you want to test some software out on the web with that, i can set you up with an account.

15:44:10 <mdupont> it should be possible to get it to work with foaf and help build up a web of trust

15:45:09 <danbri> hi. that sounds fun, but i'm up to my eyeballs in existing commitments mdupont! I'll have to cheer from the sidelines... (this year at least...)

15:45:18 <mdupont> great

15:45:24 <mdupont> i could use some tips

15:45:33 <mdupont> on what the best way to start, given that it s php

15:45:43 <mdupont> and that is not my strength, php design

15:45:44 <danbri> there is a PHP rdf library somewhere, that seems to be actively maintained

15:45:52 <mdupont> http://www.wiwiss.fu-berlin.de/suhl/bizer/rdfapi/ ?

15:46:00 <danbri> Davey here in #rdfig is also, I think, looking into RDF/PHP stuff

15:46:02 * DanC is curious about A6, would like a more pointer-rich version

15:46:04 <danbri> yes, I think that's the one.

15:46:10 <Davey> I'm here :)

15:46:28 <Davey> I can tell you the exact status on RAP :)

15:46:33 <danbri> hi! am I right in thinking you're nosing around RDF<->PHP?

15:46:43 <DanC> .google esw WebDataInterfaceDesign

15:46:45 <datum> esw WebDataInterfaceDesign: http://esw.w3.org/topic/WebDataInterfaceDesign

15:46:49 <DanC> ^ API registry

15:47:02 <mdupont> ahh

15:47:03 <mdupont> thanks

15:47:25 <Davey> The guys working on RAP released a version about 2-3 weeks ago, with quite a few fixes, works very well.

15:47:41 <danbri> A:The Mozilla RDF stuff is inadequately documented. Ryan Lee when at W3C did some work reverse-engineering their vocab, which is a dropped ball of mine now.

15:47:41 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A7.

15:48:38 <Davey> They are currently talking with myself and two other PEAR (PHP Extension and Application Repository - http://pear.php.net) Developers about porting it to PEAR. This means seperating it into several smaller more focused packages. Should remove quite a bit of obfuscation and overhead :)

15:49:07 <mdupont> wow http://phpxmlclasses.sourceforge.net/show_doc.php?class=class_rdql.html !

15:49:27 <mdupont> RAP? lemme check that as well...

15:50:08 <Davey> RAP is the one here http://www.wiwiss.fu-berlin.de/suhl/bizer/rdfapi/

15:50:46 <danbri> A:re Mozilla, the [http://www.mozilla.org/rdf/doc/|mozilla rdf] pages have a bit more info. Also [http://www.xulplanet.com/references/elemref/ref_rdfbookmarks.html|xulplanet doc] is good.

15:50:46 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A8.

15:50:56 <mdupont> this looks good : cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anonymous@cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/rdfapi- php co modulename

15:51:09 <mdupont> RAP - RDF API for PHP

15:51:18 <Davey> indeed :)

15:51:28 * mdupont checks that out on the new server

15:51:41 <mdupont> word up Davey looks good

15:52:18 <danbri> mdupont meets Davey; Davey meets mdupont. My work here is done...

15:52:29 <Davey> lol

15:52:46 * danbri goes back to rdfcore catchup... i've an action from a while back to update the RDF at the ns URIs

15:52:48 <mdupont> thanks for the intro danbri. very kind of you.

15:52:59 <danbri> no problem! let us know how you get on...

15:53:18 * mdupont shakes danbri's hand. Peace!

15:53:33 <mdupont> i will send you a uri

15:53:35 <danbri> :)

15:53:36 <mdupont> to try soon

15:54:29 * Davey notes that RAP is one of the most feature complete RDF API he's found, and definately the best in PHP

15:54:35 <mdupont> ok

15:55:21 <Davey> thought I daresay its not the fastest, but even so I believe they said they think it could handle 10,000 triples/second. Though I might be thinking of something else altogether :D

15:55:38 * DanC encourages Davey to promote that endorsement into WebDataInterfaceDesign

15:55:46 <mdupont> cause that phpxml classes.sf.net class rdql *looks* interesting. I would like a php rdfql

15:56:09 <Davey> mdupont: RAP uses some of the phpxmlclasses stuff, heavily modified :)

15:56:36 <Davey> that stuff hasn't been touched in a while from what I've seen, RAP took it and integrated it into everything else

15:56:38 <mdupont> great!

15:56:56 <mdupont> thats good news. glad i listened to you

15:57:39 <Davey> Heh, I'm just muddlign through this stuff honestly, learning as I go. But mattmcc also is up on these things :D

15:57:42 <danbri> +1, thanks for the update

15:58:31 <Davey> when RAP hits PEAR (as PEAR::RDF_* packages) it'll have quite a lot more exposure for sure :)

16:00:01 <Davey> DanC: is there any active discussion on the WebDataInterfaceDesign, cause I could do with that for my current project ;)

16:00:23 * DanC finds the question puzzling

16:00:37 <DanC> umm... yes, I suppose.

16:00:46 <DanC> you can look at the changelog of the page

16:01:02 <Davey> DanC: looking for a #webdatainterfacedesign or such, unless thats the realm of #rdfig too?

16:01:19 <DanC> and you can search for WebDataInterfaceDesign in http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/ and in the logs

16:01:49 <danbri> its all in scope here. we sometimes have schedule topical chats in irc, often on wednesday, woudl be a fine topic for one...

16:01:51 <DanC> it's a wiki topic. http://esw.w3.org/topic/WebDataInterfaceDesign

16:02:03 <danbri> ...hasn't been one for a while (lots of folk been travelling)

16:02:13 <danbri> .google esw ScheduledTopicChat

16:02:14 <datum> esw ScheduledTopicChat: http://esw.w3.org/topic/ScheduledTopicChat

16:02:27 <DanC> DanC has changed the topic to: RDF APIs and such. http://esw.w3.org/topic/WebDataInterfaceDesign http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/

16:03:04 <Davey> danbri: well, see, I'm kindof sat here like "Why am I using RDF right now?". It seems extremely logical at the start, but its now looking more like just pre-defined XML schemas of sorts... heh

16:03:12 * DanC likes the /topic to change to discuss what's actually being discussed at the moment

16:04:07 <danbri> you mean, predefined XML schemas are looking more attractive now you're in the nitty-gritty of actually using RDF tools?

16:04:17 <Davey> danbri: no

16:04:20 * danbri wonders which schemas appeal, and how well they work with each other

16:04:26 <danbri> ah ok

16:04:38 <Davey> I mean that FOAF for example looks like a Schema for storing personal data

16:04:53 <Davey> Annotea a schema for storing commentary data...

16:04:55 <Davey> etc

16:05:26 * danbri nods, but notes that annotea documents can include FOAF, and vice-versa, which is quite a leap from mainstream XML design culture

16:05:45 <danbri> ...where schemas are, literally, document types

16:05:54 <Davey> danbri: thats nothing more than utilising XML Namespaces in my mind...

16:06:07 <danbri> In RDF there's one main 'type' of document, rdf/xml. and each schema adds utility to it.

16:06:35 <danbri> davey, this sounds familar from the RSS debates!

16:06:49 <danbri> in a way, it is just a set of principles for doing distributed, collaborative XML namespace design.

16:06:54 <Davey> one of the ideas is that I want to use FOAF to store personal data on all registrants for my conference... using the <foaf:knows> for who they refer/who refers them. Simple enough I think... looks to me like a good sematic way of storing that data.

16:07:33 <danbri> If you think about the things in your namespace being classes and properties, rather than elements and attributes, and think about the constraints/rules about their usage being observations about the world, rather than observations about XML document structure, it makes the division of labour easier.

16:08:10 <danbri> ie. I say that foaf:workplaceHomepage has a range of Document, I'm saying something about the world, rather than about what MUST appear inside a workplaceHomepage element in my XML document type.

16:08:39 <danbri> this frees up other people to innovate without having to coordinate with me about the xml structures, since there's only one XML element structure we buy into -- the RDF/XML syntax.

16:08:50 <danbri> Does that make sense?

16:09:05 <Davey> it does but I'm typing something long to explain my problem

16:09:10 <danbri> okay

16:09:45 <Davey> ok, so I have that, great. Now I want to display it on a webpage... and the RDF toolkits aren't right for this in my mind. Something like XSLT would do better... but wait, RDF/XML doesn't have fixed formats... I can *choose* to fix them, seeing as my code is creating the RDF/XML and its all internal... but then its just XML with a defined schema being transformed with XSLT to XHTML...

16:10:29 <danbri> Yes, that's a definite problem. People hit this "eek, I can't use XSLT" wall. There are some ideas towards fixing that, but it's an issue.

16:10:50 <Davey> danbri: so, at what point does it stop being RDF and start being "normal" XML?

16:10:53 <mdupont> should have figured it needs pear: thats cool

16:10:54 <danbri> Damian's treehugger, for eg., is conventions for making an RDF store look like a funny sort of XML store, so XSLT's can be written.

16:11:04 <mdupont> pear is like cpan?

16:11:08 <mdupont> Fatal error: main(): Failed opening required 'RDFAPI_INCLUDE_DIRconstants.php' (include_path='.:/usr/local/share/pear') in /usr/local/www/data-dist/ rdf/rdfapi-php/api/RdfAPI.php on line 24

16:11:20 <Davey> it doesn't need PEAR mdupont ;)

16:11:29 <Davey> PEAR is just in your include_path.

16:11:42 <mdupont> ahh, how blind of me.

16:11:43 <Davey> you've got the include wrong.

16:11:44 <mdupont> and silly

16:11:48 <danbri> not sure what shape answer to offer, Davey. Generally RDF apps use RDF APIs and query languages, rather than XML APIs, XPath, XSLT, XQuery etc.

16:12:00 <danbri> ...which is why we're looking at a WG in that area...

16:12:08 <danbri> jargon sorry, WG=Working Group

16:12:15 <Davey> yeah, I know WG :)

16:12:28 <danbri> :) just checking...

16:13:15 <Davey> danbri: seems that at this present moment, if I'm working with external RDF XML documents, I could use an RDF API to manually go to an XML Schema I have defined and then XSLTed

16:13:47 <danbri> you could, yes. Or not even actually define the XML Schema, just work at instance level. Not sure if that'd be useful though....

16:14:10 <Davey> the only RDF syntaxes that seem to be working successfully are those following the same schemas. Like FOAF, the deviation from the foaf-a-matic format is minimal.

16:14:16 <Davey> same with RSS 1.0

16:14:39 <Davey> those that would deviate wildly using all the flexibility of RDF are too difficult to work with at this present moment.

16:15:13 <danbri> ...with xml tools, yep.

16:15:35 <danbri> one issue isn't so much the variability of syntactic encoding, but in terms of the bits of data that are there or not there.

16:15:43 <Davey> danbri: but with RDF/XML being XML... people want to use XML tools on it. It *is* XML after all.

16:16:19 <danbri> I don't disagree! the disconnect is causing some pain, f'sure. But I can't think of another way things could've been architected, plausibly...

16:16:53 <Davey> danbri: well, strict rules on how a certain RDF Schema should be written.. is one way.

16:17:20 <Davey> so all FOAFs (as RDF/XML at least) must be written in a certain way.

16:17:46 <danbri> RDF isn't inclined towards that sort of strictness, since its designed for wide-area use. In a particular document type, you might say 'foaf:name is mandatory'; but in general, you can't. eg imagine a site (meinbild.ch etc) that usese anonymised person descriptions

16:17:47 <Davey> things that don't conform to that way, should be in a different namespace, XML tools handle those just fine.

16:18:16 <danbri> its tricky doing (i) MUSTs while (ii) having yr format very widely usable

16:19:01 * danbri has to head off, sorry to leave this dangling... (it's a 5-year long conversation though ... ;)

16:19:14 <Davey> when using RDF/XML as a semantic "storage" medium for websites... like I'm doing... because the end result is XML (in the form of XHTML, WML, XSL:FO, SVG even) there has to be some way to bridge the gap between the RDF API and XML Tools I guess...

16:19:25 <Davey> danbri: seeya ;)

16:19:38 * danbri nods re gap...

16:19:39 <danbri> cu...

16:19:42 <Davey> seeya

16:20:19 * Davey thinks that RDF/XML is the bridge between RDF (as N3/N-Triples) and XML... or something

16:22:36 <emacson> DanC a hiptop RSS reader would be a good thing (TM)

16:22:51 <emacson> Do you have the API for Hiptop?

16:23:02 <DanCon> .google palmagent hipAgent

16:23:02 <datum> palmagent hipAgent: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2001/palmagent/hipAgent.py

16:23:21 <DanCon> that's my work on getting data in/out of the hiptop calendar and addressbook

16:23:25 <mdupont> http://www.semanticplanet.com/2003/08/rdft/impl/php/lib/rdfapi-php-4/api/RdfAPI.php -- same error :)

16:23:46 <emacson> DanCon: there's python for Hiptop... cool

16:23:58 <emacson> DanCon: I don't actually have one, my gf does

16:24:11 <DanCon> er... the python I wrote runs on a typical PC

16:24:28 <DanCon> it connects to the hiptop data via HTTP

16:24:33 <emacson> OIC

16:25:51 <Davey> mdupont: paste the include line

16:26:11 <Davey> well, its actually a require statment, otherwise it wouldn't be fatal, but yeah

16:29:07 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

16:42:40 <mdupont> paste the include file?

16:42:43 <mdupont> let me check

16:43:23 <dajobe-lap> I get the same error as mdupont

16:45:15 <mdupont> let me check the permissions

16:46:05 <mdupont> forbidden on constants

16:47:16 <mdupont> asimov# ls -latr constants.php

16:47:16 <mdupont> -rwxr-x--- 1 mdupont 1000 10676 Nov 27 13:39 constants.php

16:47:19 <D[a]vey> paste the line that starts require

16:47:25 <mdupont> ok

16:48:05 <mdupont> davy what you say, i make you a ssh account, davey@asimov.thefrontnetworks.net?

16:48:14 <mdupont> errr davey

16:48:37 <D[a]vey> the problem is with the require line, paste it already!

16:49:16 <mdupont> let me try

16:49:18 <mdupont> to find it

16:49:56 <mdupont> require( RDFAPI_INCLUDE_DIR . "constants.php" );

16:50:04 <mdupont> that file was not in the righ group i think

16:50:08 <mdupont> it was mdupont

16:50:20 <D[a]vey> and can you paste the define('RDFAPI_INCLUDE_DIR',....) line?

16:50:50 <mdupont> i look

16:50:57 <mdupont> sorry if am soooooos slow

16:51:45 <mdupont> syntax/custom_test_n3.php:define("RDFAPI_INCLUDE_DIR", "./../api/");

16:51:59 <mdupont> hmm

16:52:20 <D[a]vey> ok....

16:52:21 <mdupont> and constants is in there

16:52:27 <mdupont> i think it is a permissions issue

16:52:29 <mdupont> check this

16:52:45 <mdupont> http://asimov.thefrontnetworks.net/rdf/rdfapi-php/api/ and

16:52:59 <mdupont> http://asimov.thefrontnetworks.net/rdf/rdfapi-php/api/constants.php is now working!

16:52:59 <dc_rdfig> B: http://asimov.thefrontnetworks.net/rdf/rdfapi-php/api/constants.php from mdupont

16:53:03 <mdupont> shit

16:53:08 <mdupont> sorry DanC

16:53:26 <mdupont> B:|RDF Constants .php file

16:53:26 <dc_rdfig> Titled item B.

16:55:34 <mdupont> B:Accidental CHUMP- Sorry. A php module that is not needed directly

16:55:34 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B1.

16:58:24 <dajobe-lap> you can always change the URL with B:=newurl

16:58:39 <mdupont> cool

16:59:05 <mdupont> B:=http://asimov.thefrontnetworks.net/rdf/rdfapi-php/api/

16:59:05 <dc_rdfig> Replaced URL of B.

16:59:36 <mdupont> B1:Starting of a RDF RAD PHP install. Not working yet.

16:59:37 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment B1.

18:20:58 <iwaim> iwaim is now known as iwaiAway

20:17:46 <DanC_jam> laptop battery died; debian linux isn't smart enough to hibernate automatically

20:18:05 <DanC_jam> apt-get install laptop

20:18:27 <DanC_jam> that should do the noatime trick, install power management applet, etc.

20:21:52 <DanCon> no, this DSL modem isn't worth listing on ebay. http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2F&krd=1&from=R8&MfcISAPICommand=GetResult&ht=1&SortProperty=MetaEndSort&query=speedstream+5260

20:23:31 <mdupont> D[a]vey: RDFAPI_INCLUDE_DIR is not defined

20:24:01 <mdupont> ahhh

20:24:03 <mdupont> define("RDFAPI_INCLUDE_DIR", "C:/Apache/htdocs/rdf_api/api/");

20:24:03 <mdupont> include(RDFAPI_INCLUDE_DIR . "RDFAPI.php");

20:39:21 <danbri> OK, this RDF stuff is starting to spook me out now! Just looking thru... http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/discovery/2001/08/codepict/codepict.jsp?mbox=mailto%3Adanbri%40w3.org

20:39:26 * danbri didn't catalog most of those photos

20:40:54 <JibberJim> Yeah but it reveals so little about you other than you hang around in pubs and restaurants a lot.

20:42:14 <danbri> Yeah... And that I sometimes get big hair. And one of those restaurants looks like an amsterdam coffeeshop (but I didn't inhale!).

20:43:13 <JibberJim> Not only looks like but is wn:'d up.

20:43:16 <danbri> Its still odd. Generally I don't maintain too much of a rigid work/non-work partition, but it did feel odd circulating that url. Seemed easiest way in context of use case "meeting someone at a conference given that you don't know what they look like"

20:43:23 <danbri> heh

20:43:53 <mdupont> so i got this RAD running

20:43:59 <mdupont> but it segfaults

20:44:03 <mdupont> i mean it loads...

20:44:15 <danbri> I missed out on meeting up with someone interesting in Lux last week... she was apparently looking for me but didn't know what I looked like.

20:44:35 <danbri> And the nametags had tiny font, so you couldn't easily browse thru the attendees as they passed

20:44:37 <JibberJim> FOAF Mobile!

20:44:42 <danbri> quite

20:44:52 <JibberJim> or bigger name-tags...

20:45:09 <JibberJim> if you don't want to over-engineer a solution...

20:45:10 <danbri> or http://www.handango.com/PlatformProductDetail.jsp?productType=2&optionId=1_4_2&jid=A28F42587XDF8F541X3FCB7F5943F9X4&platformId=4&siteId=1&productId=92310&advSearch=true&sectionId=0&keyWords=dater&catalog=20&txtSearch=dater

20:45:46 <mdupont> now it does not

21:30:11 <sbp> nice GET vs. POST case: http://wizbangblog.com/archives/001268.php

21:31:03 <DanCon> ew... norman.walsh.name seems hosed

21:31:32 <DanCon> send a short excerpt to www-tag, and put whenToUseGet-7 in the subject, pls sbp

21:34:23 <DanCon> .time

21:34:24 <datum> Sun, 07 Dec 2003 21:34:24 GMT

21:34:35 <DanCon> homer.w3.org seems hosed; lost my ssh tunnel

21:34:53 <DanCon> hmm... perhaps just a fluke; got ssh tunnel back

21:46:24 <DanCon> while I'm updating my homepage for XML 2003, I revised the "take your stupid questions elsewhere" bit (http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/#contact) to be more friendly, change the photo, cited nxml-mode, etc.

21:48:04 * DanCon noodles on SVG business cards, generated from my foafwho file

21:50:30 <DanCon> BLURB: toward SVG business cards from foaf data

21:53:44 <sbp> DanC: sent. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Dec/0158

21:56:23 * JibberJim looked at an svg foaf top-trumps game some time ago.

21:56:51 <JibberJim> top trumps cards and business cards are pretty similar.

22:08:54 * DanCon wonders where the chump went

22:09:09 <LotR> it's out with friends

22:10:20 <dajobe-lap> hmm

22:12:31 <dajobe-lap> dc_rdfig: view 1

22:12:31 <dc_rdfig> B: RDF Constants .php file (http://asimov.thefrontnetworks.net/rdf/rdfapi-php/api/)

22:13:53 <DanCon> BLURB: toward SVG business cards from foaf data

22:13:53 <dc_rdfig> C: toward SVG business cards from foaf data from DanCon

22:15:44 <DanCon> C:750 point bounty for an XSLT (or perl/python/whatever) doodad that takes my foaf file (with my name, title, employer's logo, my photo, my pgp fingerprint, phone number, and email address) and makes a nice business-card-sized SVG thingy

22:15:44 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C1.

22:16:20 <DanCon> C:extra 200 points if it takes an SVG template, and 3 example templates are supplied

22:16:20 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C2.

22:17:08 <DanCon> C:on the back I'd like to have the info itself, in N3, signed using cwm's crypto stuff

22:17:08 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C3.

22:18:16 <DanCon> hmm... I've been giving out printed pgp fingerprints when I meet other geeks; I want to put together a page that tells them what to do with that info

22:18:42 * DanCon googles, finds http://www.cryptnet.net/fdp/crypto/gpg-party.html

22:19:05 <DanCon> BLURB: public key exchange at XML 2003

22:19:05 <dc_rdfig> D: public key exchange at XML 2003 from DanCon

22:21:45 <DanCon> phpht... "2) Check the PGP signature and the MD5 Checksum on the GnuPG archive: " http://www.cryptnet.net/fdp/crypto/gpg-party.html#ss3.2

22:21:49 <DanCon> check it against WHAT?

22:22:08 <DanCon> check it against another file you find there? where's the security in that?

22:23:23 <DanCon> D:looking for good pgp howto stuff...

22:23:23 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D1.

22:24:03 <DanCon> D:odd; this [http://www.cryptnet.net/fdp/crypto/gpg-party.html|howto] sounds all paranoid, but then suggests checking the pgp source code with an md5 obtained from the same source as the code. what good is that?

22:24:03 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D2.

22:29:31 <DanCon> D:[http://www.gnupg.org/gph/en/manual.html|The GNU Privacy Handbook] looks good

22:29:31 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D3.

22:34:40 <eaon|away> eaon|away is now known as eaon|zZz

23:46:13 <dajobe-lap>http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/cc-metadata/2003-December/000250.html

23:46:13 <dc_rdfig> E: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/cc-metadata/2003-December/000250.html from dajobe-lap

23:46:35 <dajobe-lap> E:|allowing XML rather than RDF [in Creative Commons metadata]

23:46:35 <dc_rdfig> Titled item E.

23:47:17 <dajobe-lap> E:how do you politely answer this question?

23:47:17 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E1.

23:47:24 <dajobe-lap> E:*I'd like to be able to use the CC schema at http://web.resource.org/cc/ in non-RDF XML. This is because the schema should be useful to people who, right or wrong, aren't willing to pay the RDF tax. A lot of people will not use RDF at this point, and there's no technical reason why that should prevent them from using the CC schema.*

23:47:24 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E2.

23:48:33 <jql> rdf tax? ouch

23:48:40 <dajobe-lap> rdf tax=total FUD

23:48:48 <dajobe-lap> or pejorative nonsense

23:49:00 <jql> I know. where do people get that?

23:49:08 <dajobe-lap> I might as well go on about the XML tax, unicode tax, ...

23:49:18 <jql> unicode tax >>> rdf tax

23:51:10 <jql> how do they define "use"? machine-readable? if they want machine-readable, that's what rdf is for. :/

23:51:24 <dajobe-lap> indeed

23:51:53 <dajobe-lap> or ASCII

23:54:24 <dajobe-lap> heh try replacing "non RDF-XML" with "non-XML schema XML" and s/RDF/XML schema/ tax, for amusment.

23:54:31 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

23:55:29 <dajobe-lap> that's also been seen as an emotional argument^wrant in some xml communities

23:56:41 * jql sighs

23:57:00 <jql> creative commons is hardly OWL

23:57:42 <dajobe-lap> CC inside movable type doesn't even pay the XML tax, it uses a regex to find the embedded metadata, IIRC

23:59:13 <DanC_jam> E:there is a technical reason: namespace mixing is solved for RDF, but not for XML. CC metadata is much more useful when it's mixed with other metadata, like title, author, etc.

23:59:13 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E3.