Semantic Web Interest Group IRC Chat Logs for 2003-12-09

00:06:49 <md-afk> md-afk is now known as mdupotn

00:12:09 <chillywilly> heh

00:18:07 <mdupotn> mdupotn is now known as mdupont

01:06:21 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

01:22:33 <irc__> irc__ is now known as DanC-AIM_

01:22:45 <DanC-AIM_> Hi from ATL.

01:23:54 <D[a]vey> Hey DanC :)

01:24:36 <D[a]vey> hmm, how odd, I said hi because of a join like, 20hrs ago, my buffer was stuck way up there. LOL

01:24:37 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

01:44:39 <sandro> Hello, ATL....

01:45:09 <sbp> hey DanC-ATL

02:02:29 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

02:07:17 <DanC-AIM_> Crap! I have no plan for getting from PHL to the hotel. Somebody tell me it's trivial, please?

02:08:11 <DanC-AIM_> 1201 market... Philadelphia marriott

02:08:29 <DanC-AIM_> Quick! Yp.yahoo before we take off!

02:08:48 <sbp> looks about 5 miles

02:09:04 <DanC-AIM_> Whew.

02:09:45 <danbri> its trivial.

02:09:47 <danbri> where are you?

02:09:59 <DanC-AIM_> I grabbel about 60% of "homesteading on the noosphere" while taking off from MCI

02:10:10 <DanC-AIM_> ATL

02:10:14 <danbri> airport, you follow signs to "Philadelphia Town Centre" trains

02:10:19 <DanC-AIM_> Taking off now. Zoom!

02:10:24 <sbp> enjoy your flight

02:10:40 <DanC-AIM_> Any more, danbri?

02:10:48 <danbri> train goes twice an hour. it is ~5 or 6 stops to something called

02:10:54 <danbri> Market East Station

02:11:08 <danbri> which is in a huge block which includes the Marriott and the massive convention centre.

02:11:18 <danbri> I'm 5 mins off from there.

02:11:25 <danbri> you can buy train ticket on the train.

02:11:33 <danbri> $5.50 or so.

02:12:01 <danbri> thats all I remember. Once you're off the train, you'll see signs to Marriott and convention centre from the 'exit to street' area.

02:12:37 <danbri> I don't know how late the trains run. There were also taxis at airport, no idea re price.

02:13:41 <danbri> I've an 8am telecon in morning, so am off to bed now...

02:54:43 <mdupont> hey cwm is producing :

02:54:45 <mdupont> (u'# Warning -- http://ansi/ attribute in type namespace not RDF NS.', u'type')

03:42:51 <DanC-AIM_> /me regains GPRS seconds before touching down in PHL

03:42:53 <DanC-AIM_> Thx for the clues, danbri (and t-mobile GPRS, aimbridge, #rdfig, freenode)

04:29:41 <DanC-AIM_> Ugh. Waiting for luggage. Didn't need to check it, but didn't want to hassle with it in ATL.

04:29:50 <DanC-AIM_> Ok, boarded train. Found market east on map therein.

04:29:57 <DanC-AIM_> Gprs iffy.

04:36:01 <DanC-AIM_> Crud... Left gizmo charger @ home. Good thing I have a spare! It involves keeping laptop on while I sleep, though.

04:50:45 * Ankh watches DanC travel

04:52:56 <DanC-AIM_> Hi from the sports bar, ankh. Missed dinner in ATL.

05:48:05 <Ankh> DanC, hi

05:48:09 <Ankh> oops, that was an hour ago

05:48:28 <Ankh> sorry, missed your reply earlier

05:48:32 <Ankh> and now you're in Jamaica?

05:48:59 <deltab> or jam, perhaps a vat thereof

05:51:04 <Ankh> I've always wanted to try swimming in treacle (molasses) myself.

05:54:13 * DanC_jam made it to a hotel room, finally

05:54:22 <Ankh> yay :)

05:54:46 * Ankh still (slowly) progressing re. xml query, rdf & personal image collection

06:14:43 <Ankh> connectivity problems in hotel?

06:22:35 <DanCon> oh; hi

06:22:46 <DanCon> well, a power cable came loose.

06:23:00 <DanC-AIM_> byebye

06:27:09 <Ankh> ah

06:30:52 <Ankh> dan, you planning to go to paul cotton's rdf/xq meeting?

07:05:14 <Ankh> Ankh is now known as AnkhGone

08:25:09 <scatterp> any one here know anything about the sms bot sandro

08:25:13 <scatterp> was disscussing here

08:25:21 <scatterp> i found it in a log on a web page

08:27:03 <sandro> hm? I know almost nothing about sms.

08:27:34 <deltab> this sandro isn't a bot, as far as we know

08:28:07 <sandro> indeed. if I were, I'd call myself sandrobot or sandroid, ya know?

08:28:53 <sandro> *yawn*

08:28:54 <scatterp> hmmm

08:28:59 <scatterp> well let me paste

08:29:01 <scatterp> one sec

08:29:02 <deltab> heh

08:29:44 <scatterp> sandro: The one non-query method at xmethods is "send an SMS message". It's PacTel only. I'm a verizon customer. Verizon's HTML send-SMS-message is obviously a database app, giving you a record locator so you can later check the status of the message, etc.

08:29:44 <scatterp> danbri_: "Obviously a database app" still vague... you mean theres some (hidden) state change involved that the Web service has access to?

08:29:44 <scatterp> sandro: That is, you could call sendSMS(destination_number, text) and get back a receipt number, then querySMSStatus(receipt_number) and get back a code or something. Or....

08:29:45 <scatterp> sandro: you could "INSERT INTO SMS_MESSAGES (ID, DEST, TEXT) VALUES(gensym(), destination_number, text);" and later "SELECT STATUS FROM SMS_MESSAGE WHERE ID=myGenSym;". That's all the back-end is doing anyway. And this ways simpler -- you just need to know the schema, not the API. (I've used SQL here, in real life I'd use an RDF Database Access Protocol.)

08:29:46 <sandro> I wonder if you can use captcha to test people you meet on IRC easily. I dunno if their image URLs are stable or not -- probably not.

08:29:50 <scatterp> sandro

08:30:35 <scatterp> any way im looking for a sms irc bot

08:30:39 <scatterp> so if you dont have one

08:30:45 <scatterp> i better get back to looking

08:30:45 <sandro> So, yes, I did have that conversation with danbri, but that was a long time ago, etc.

08:30:51 <scatterp> i c

08:30:54 <sandro> Sorry, nope. Go back to looking. :)

08:30:57 <scatterp> k

08:30:59 <scatterp> cya

08:31:01 <scatterp> thx

08:32:16 <sandro> I wonder what google query got him there. "rdf sms bot" perhaps.

08:45:27 <AnkhGone> or, "sandro is a bot" :-)

08:46:39 <sandro> Hello, AnkhNotSoGone. :)

08:48:08 <AnkhGone> :) hi

08:48:21 <AnkhGone> just read Dan's advogato post

08:49:18 <DanCon> that was quick. the diary entry or the article, AnkhGone?

08:50:09 <sandro> ? hm. /me finishes renewing expired domain renewal before looking. (Hello, Dan....)

08:50:28 <DanCon> hi

08:50:37 <AnkhGone> the article

08:50:45 <AnkhGone> coincidence re. quick

08:50:57 * DanCon wonders why sandro is out of phase

08:51:21 <DanCon> my exucse: I don't sleep well when I travel.

08:51:54 <sandro> my excuse: I'm too far behind on work

08:52:02 <DanCon> AnkhGone, I met my deadline for the article, but I'm afraid it doesn't really have a beginning, middle, and end. sorta peters out.

08:52:16 * AnkhGone frequently "out of phase", hope to get back somewhat this week though, still got weird sleep pattern from being ill last week

08:52:40 <AnkhGone> I didn't know tehre was a deadline (or is today yuor birthday? happy birthday if so!)

08:52:58 <DanCon> indeed it is. thanks.

08:53:11 <AnkhGone> DanCon.age++ :-)

08:53:21 <sandro> Oh yeah -- Happy Birthday!

08:58:33 * AnkhGone pads off again to sleep and dream of dublin core workshops :-)

08:59:54 * DanCon yawns, thinking maybe I've reached the point where I won't have to stare at the ceiling if I climb into bed

09:03:13 <sandro> Good luck.

10:06:40 <sandro> hrm. weird networking problems to w3.org

10:10:22 <sandro> Can someone please confirm lists.w3.org working, such as with: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003Dec/0001

10:10:41 <sandro> Or for that matter, anything @w3.org

10:11:01 <sandro> eh http://www.w3.org

10:11:11 <sandro> I can ping, but not open a TCP connection.

10:11:32 * jql tries

10:12:01 <jql> failed

10:12:12 <jql> x2, nobody home on port 80

10:12:45 <sandro> Ouch. Weird. It must be a router thing, cause there are a bunch of different machines there.

10:15:14 <sandro> Sigh. Makes it kinda hard to work.

10:15:47 <dajobe> hi

10:16:27 <sandro> Heya, Dave.

10:18:52 <sandro> Hi, MaxF. Seems like W3C@MIT (and all of CSAIL) isn't allowing TCP connections.

10:19:01 <maxf> aha!

10:19:04 <maxf> thought so

10:19:09 <maxf> thanks sandro

10:19:12 <maxf> you at mit?

10:19:26 <sandro> Nope....

10:19:47 <sandro> I'm trying to think of who I can wake up to deal with this, but without the Web, I'm not sure how to find out.

10:19:57 <dajobe> lol

10:20:15 <maxf> thanks dajobe...

10:20:15 <sandro> oh, maybe in my e-mail archives.

10:21:23 <dajobe> you've got to let this w3.org thing go, there's lots of other web to read ;)

10:21:30 <maxf> sandro, fr.w3.org

10:22:32 * dajobe wonders how big www.w3.org & lists.w3.org are

10:22:40 <maxf> sandro: http://fr.w3.org/Team/Phonelist-static

10:23:03 <sandro> Ohhhh, thanks.

10:23:30 <maxf> dajobe, list.w3.org is around 40Gb

10:23:41 <sandro> Still, who to bother? I'm inclined to just go back to bed. Do you want to be the bad guy? This is your normal workday, right?

10:24:04 <maxf> err, it's my normal workday but still early at MIT...

10:24:19 <maxf> I'm sure ted or simon will get up soon

10:24:35 <maxf> it might not even be anything to do with us

10:25:14 <sandro> (I don't know the procedure here. I should. Do they have a pager number or something? The thing is, I'm sure it's not a W3 problem -- but I CERTAINLY wouldn't know who at CSAIL to call. *shrug*. I guess I'll assume it's Somebody Else's Problem.)

10:25:45 <sandro> Hey, maybe it's back.

10:26:01 <sandro> Yes.

10:26:02 <sandro> Phew.

10:26:08 <maxf> woohoo

10:51:24 <sandro> sandro is now known as sandro__

10:51:28 <sandro_> sandro_ is now known as sandro

10:51:39 <sandro> stero

10:51:46 <sandro__> stereo, you mean

10:51:55 <sandro> yeah

11:26:29 <libby_> libby_ is now known as libby

11:39:12 <danbri> aw, mit offline agin? that's no good

12:24:40 * AnkhGone rolls over in his sleep, notes w3.org seems OK again

12:30:28 <ericP> ankh types well in his sleep

12:30:40 <AnkhGone> askld dasdklad kda;dj adj90odhkld

12:31:17 * AnkhGone woke up from a nightmare about an unpleasant flight

12:38:17 <ericP> crying babies! bumpy air pockets! crappy $7 meals! aaaagh!

12:38:52 <AnkhGone> in my dream I'd annoyed the checkin person or flight attendant by asking for laptop power

12:39:12 <AnkhGone> and in vindictieness they wouldn't give me any meanls or anything to drink, just walked past me

12:39:48 <AnkhGone> oh, and I was sitting in a seat that wouldn't recline, with the attendant's son or dauhter in front of me leaned all the way back to his/her headrest was against my chest. I don't remember much moer about it, though :)

12:41:18 <ericP> your dreams don't stray far from the feasible

12:41:27 <AnkhGone> they vary :)

14:02:24 <edd> hey folks

14:02:35 * edd at the XML 2003 conference, may blog stuff here

14:02:59 <dajobe> dajobe has changed the topic to: RDF, Semantic Web and some XML 2003 stuff http://esw.w3.org/topic/WebDataInterfaceDesign http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/

14:03:08 <dajobe> what's theat url doing there...

14:03:16 <dajobe> dajobe has changed the topic to: RDF, Semantic Web and some XML 2003 stuff http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/

14:18:31 * libby experiments a bit with using the chump for conference details

14:18:31 <libby>http://www2004.org/

14:18:31 <dc_rdfig> A: http://www2004.org/ from libby

14:19:27 <libby> A:|The Thirteenth International World Wide Web Conference, 17-22 May 2004, New York Sheraton, New York, NY, USA

14:19:28 <dc_rdfig> Titled item A.

14:23:02 <libby>http://www.xmleurope.com/2004/about.asp

14:23:03 <dc_rdfig> B: http://www.xmleurope.com/2004/about.asp from libby

14:23:51 <libby> B:|XMLEurope 2004, April 18-21st, Amsterdam, Netherlands

14:23:51 <dc_rdfig> Titled item B.

14:24:13 * edd cheers B

14:24:22 <edd> submit ye your proposals now!

14:28:06 <libby> BLURB:how best to describe events using the chump

14:28:06 <dc_rdfig> C: how best to describe events using the chump from libby

14:28:20 <edd> hey sam

14:28:28 <rubys> hi!

14:28:37 <edd> So, Jon Udell is currently giving his opening keynote.

14:28:50 <edd> He's showing off his XPath/DOM/Scripting clevers right now

14:29:00 <edd> Talking about preserving context in communications.

14:29:38 <edd> Followers of his columns on InfoWorld/XML.com will find this familiar.

14:29:42 <libby> C:[http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/cgi-bin/cachump/cachump.pl?url=http%3A%2F%2Frdfig.xmlhack.com%2Findex.rss&go=&save=true|a simple experimental perl scrpt that generates rdfical from an rss file]

14:29:43 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C1.

14:30:21 <libby> C:it expects a title that's something like "title, date, location", comma seprated. It tries to look up the location too.

14:30:21 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C2.

14:30:55 <libby> C:it also [http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/discovery/2003/12/cachump/rdfig/2003-12-09.rdf|saves the file]

14:30:55 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C3.

14:31:14 <edd>http://www.xmlconference.org/xmlusa/2003/keynotes&plenaries.asp

14:31:14 <dc_rdfig> D: http://www.xmlconference.org/xmlusa/2003/keynotes&plenaries.asp from edd

14:31:24 <edd> D:|Keynotes and plenary sessions at XML 2003

14:31:25 <dc_rdfig> Titled item D.

14:31:30 <libby> C:not sure whether to add creation and saving to a bot, sorta redoing the chump, or just set up a crontab or something

14:31:30 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C4.

14:33:13 <dajobe> maybe you could just chump buzzwords at D: so we get the flavour

14:33:41 <edd> D:Blogs, XPath, RSS.

14:33:42 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D1.

14:33:52 <edd> D1:Udell talking about blogs, XPath, RSS, context.

14:33:52 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment D1.

14:34:36 <edd> He mentions something called the "web services pipeline", which I'm not entirely sure what he means by.

14:35:32 <edd> D:Mentions Microsoft's InfoPath for XML document flow.

14:35:32 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D2.

14:35:54 <edd> D:MS dropped the ball in not allowing XML document creation from Outlook, precisely the place they should have put it.

14:35:55 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D3.

14:40:25 <libby> C:[http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/discovery/2003/10/whwhwhwh/|my bot knows about events like this via a crontab] - try '!bydate 2004'

14:40:26 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C5.

14:40:27 <edd> D:His general thrust is that the communications methods by which we conduct most business, email and IM, are still unstructured.

14:40:27 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D4.

14:41:24 <edd> Unfortunately from my point of view he sees Microsoft as the only source of innovation.

14:43:16 <edd> D:CSS could be a backdoor for getting metadata into XHTML: people care much more about appearance often than putting metadata in. Promote cool-looking styles as a backdoor for metadata.

14:43:16 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D5.

14:50:20 <edd> everytime someone reads my weblog, a kitten dies

14:50:49 <edd> BLURB:The Perennial problem: Processing Information

14:50:49 <dc_rdfig> E: The Perennial problem: Processing Information from edd

14:51:01 <edd> E:Second XML 2003 keynote. Shantanu Narayen, Adobe.

14:51:01 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E1.

14:52:11 <edd> E:Hmm, the scheduled title is "Extend the Power of Business Processes: Bringing Data and Presentation Together with XML"

14:52:11 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E2.

14:54:39 * edd finding it hard to follow, encourages kendallclark and rubys to contribute too with any observations

14:55:05 <iwaiAway> iwaiAway is now known as iwaim

14:56:19 <kendallclark> uh... "Intelligent Document Thingamajig"

14:57:32 <edd> hmm, actually Narayen appears to be talking about more or less the same thing as Udell

14:57:40 <edd> routed documents for automating business processes

14:57:44 <kendallclark> :E "intelligent documents": store xml, store routing info (so that it can "move"), store presentation ("accessible for the humans", as opposed to the robots, of course)

14:57:59 * edd reminds kendallclark of this is an old fashioned chump

14:58:07 <kendallclark> argh

14:58:26 <kendallclark> edd: "intelligent documents": store xml, store routing info (so that it can "move"), store presentation ("accessible for the humans", as opposed to the robots, of course)

14:58:29 <kendallclark> shit

14:58:33 * kendallclark gives up

14:58:45 <shellac> xchat, by any chance?

14:58:52 <edd> leave no space

14:58:54 <kendallclark> only to say that i'm suspicious of this idea of embedding doc routing info in docs

14:59:11 <edd> Mentions XML Forms but curiously NOT XForms

14:59:16 <kendallclark> E:"intelligent documents": store xml, store routing info (so that it can "move"), store presentation ("accessible for the humans", as opposed to the robots, of course)

14:59:16 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E3.

14:59:17 <edd> instead cites JavaScript/XSLT

14:59:41 <edd> E:Intelligent Documents contain XML Documents, XML Forms and Metadata, according to Adobe.

14:59:41 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E4.

14:59:54 <edd> E:Notably under "XML Forms" doesn't cite XForms, but JavaScript and XSLT instead.

14:59:54 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E5.

15:00:07 <edd> E:Under Metadata they say XMP and RDF.

15:00:08 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E6.

15:00:29 <edd> E:The XML Documents bit is "templates", XSLT, XSL-FO, SVG

15:00:29 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E7.

15:00:57 * kendallclark returns to reading motorcycle mailing list

15:01:30 * danbri gets off telecon, sets about figuring out which bit of the 4 blocks of confernce centre house the xml stuff

15:01:43 <kendallclark> E:He hasn't said anything, near as I can tell, about what representation the document routing info is in...? XML and Schema, I guess.

15:01:43 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E8.

15:01:50 <edd> E:So seems like a business document in their view bundles presentation, behaviour, business logic (routing, etc.) as well as content. PDF is the vehicle for this, but with XML smarts inside.

15:01:50 <kendallclark> danbrin in philly?!

15:01:50 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E9.

15:01:59 <kendallclark> danbri: you in philly?

15:02:09 <danbri> yep :)

15:02:11 <kendallclark> rock!

15:02:21 <kendallclark> so, much booze shall be consumed!

15:02:34 <danbri> only when i've written my talk

15:02:50 <kendallclark> edd: did i mention that i convinced Saint Paul of Ford to come down from NYC?

15:02:54 <kendallclark> danbri: foaf?

15:03:03 <edd> E:Adobe geting involved with ebXML, acquired Yellow Dragon.

15:03:03 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E10.

15:03:24 <danbri> talk, on rdf crawling, foaf-ish rdfs:seeAlso stuff.

15:03:28 <edd> E:So I wonder if they see PDFs being passed around with ebXML...?

15:03:29 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E11.

15:03:40 <danbri> oh cool, when's paul get here?

15:04:08 <edd> kendallclark: super, i did send an encouragement as per your direction :)

15:04:09 <kendallclark> danbri: ah. eikeon and i doing some spidering stuff at umd.

15:04:17 <kendallclark> edd: oh right.

15:04:27 <danbri> spiderin', great :)

15:04:30 <kendallclark> danbri: he's coming down on thur, will be here till some time friday

15:04:54 <edd> our RDF dog & pony session is thursday evening

15:04:56 <kendallclark> i've been working on a spider service interface (giving it the sexier name "resource discovery" :>)

15:05:00 <edd> pef should give a 5 minute brief on his work there

15:05:04 <kendallclark> ah, good

15:05:05 <edd> am sure norm would be amenable.

15:05:21 <kendallclark> just call me 'The Facilitator'!

15:05:45 <danbri> +1 on pef talking thu night

15:05:57 <kendallclark> yep

15:09:02 <kendallclark> E:Yes, seems so, in a rather big way.

15:09:02 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E12.

15:09:25 <edd> E:Using ebXML registry as a repository for intelligent business forms

15:09:25 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E13.

15:09:41 <edd> E:The XML documents can be filled out through Adobe Acrobat Reader.

15:09:41 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E14.

15:10:31 <edd> E:The documents look like the pieces of paper they replace, but have inbuilt validation and business logic.

15:10:32 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E15.

15:11:00 <evlist> hi everyone

15:11:01 <kendallclark> there's rather a bit of handwaving here, of course

15:11:23 <edd> E:Digital signatures once the form is filled out.

15:11:23 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E16.

15:11:29 <edd> hi eric.

15:12:24 <edd> E:My big doubt about this is that paper emulation seems a bit limiting.

15:12:24 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E17.

15:12:27 <libby> oh, heya evlist

15:13:26 <edd> E:The resulting XML document can be generated to a specified schema. XDP, XML data package, seems to be the tech they use to wrap it all up together (glad to see *someone* did something about packaging :)

15:13:26 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E18.

15:14:13 <kendallclark> E:Interestingly, when I wrote about XML tools in regulatory/gov't environments back in Sept, Adobe had a very tiny presence. One wonders whether that's changing.

15:14:14 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E19.

15:16:08 <edd> E:Showing "Adobe Designer" the editing tool for these forms. JavaScripting can be used for validation, etc. The UI is described in an XML language, I couldn't see the namespace quickly enough, but he shows the XML source behind the PDF prettiness.

15:16:09 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E20.

15:17:12 <edd> E:The data in the document can be bound in various ways: to an XML Schema, to a relational database, as inputs to web services. Done via drag and drop linking.

15:17:12 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E21.

15:17:34 <edd> this is an infopath killer

15:17:49 <evlist> exactly

15:17:58 <kendallclark> 'twould be nice

15:18:22 * edd is very impressed

15:19:10 <kendallclark> it's more impressive, if for no other reason than that acrobat > word

15:19:46 <edd> E:Starting from blank, demo shows that a schema element can be dropped onto a blank form and a first-pass UI is automatically generated, which can be prettified.

15:19:46 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E22.

15:20:28 <edd> E:The fact that these documents can be bound to static documents, web services, databases is good: seems to provide for a multiplicity of routing options.

15:20:29 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E23.

15:20:52 <kendallclark> E:Adobe is excited about this "new technology" and it hopes that I'm excited to! I'll have to think about that.

15:20:53 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E24.

15:21:09 <edd> E:I have reservations about the paper-emulation aspect of this, but maybe that's not such a problem.

15:21:09 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E25.

15:21:10 <evlist> Jean Paoli leaves the room ;-)

15:21:28 * AnkhGone agrees paper is an exciting new technology

15:22:08 <kendallclark> bijan: hey

15:22:52 <edd> hey bij.

15:22:55 <bijan> hiya

15:23:29 <bijan> Ugh. ok

15:23:48 <edd> I can see why they're not really going for XForms, their scope seems lesser than their aimsa.

15:25:08 <edd> E:Now talking about working for interoperability with SAP, IBM and others etc to allow their frontends to work with the major business backends.

15:25:08 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E26.

15:25:10 <kendallclark> well, and regulatory stuff in particular is way trickier than the demo suggested, though this is really about corpo environments, i suspect

15:25:21 <edd> yeah.

15:25:46 <MarkB>http://www.nanometrics.ca/images/PDF%20files/Taurus.pdf

15:25:46 <dc_rdfig> F: http://www.nanometrics.ca/images/PDF%20files/Taurus.pdf from MarkB

15:26:13 <MarkB> F|Semantic Web enabled seismograph (PDF)

15:26:23 <MarkB> F:|Semantic Web enabled seismograph (PDF)

15:26:23 <dc_rdfig> Titled item F.

15:26:55 <MarkB> F:my day job for the past few months

15:26:55 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F1.

15:27:32 <edd> coffee break now.

15:27:50 * edd encourages other participants to chump notes on the sessions they go to

15:28:13 <MarkB> yes, please!

15:33:16 <eaon|zZz> eaon|zZz is now known as eaon|busy

15:54:58 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

15:59:09 * edd in the product presentation track: amazon.com and smartdraw

15:59:48 <kendallclark> BLURB: The Business Web Services Scorecard

15:59:49 <dc_rdfig> G: The Business Web Services Scorecard from kendallclark

15:59:59 <kendallclark> GabeW: David Burdett, presenter

16:00:03 * evlist in the Graphics/Multimedia track

16:00:12 <kendallclark> G:David Burdett, presenter

16:00:12 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G1.

16:00:27 * kendallclark obviously in websvcs

16:00:49 <edd>http://www.xmlconference.org/xmlusa/2003/tuesday.asp#6

16:00:49 <dc_rdfig> H: http://www.xmlconference.org/xmlusa/2003/tuesday.asp#6 from edd

16:00:53 <evlist>http://www.xmlconference.org/xmlusa/2003/tuesday.asp#4

16:00:53 <dc_rdfig> I: http://www.xmlconference.org/xmlusa/2003/tuesday.asp#4 from evlist

16:01:06 <edd> H:|Case Study: Why and How Amazon Made Web Services Work

16:01:07 <dc_rdfig> Titled item H.

16:01:20 <kendallclark> G:A big review of WS standards

16:01:21 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G2.

16:01:24 <evlist> I:|Using SMIL Infill Templates to Invite in Media Specialists

16:01:24 <dc_rdfig> Titled item I.

16:01:34 <edd> H:Jeff Barr, Amazon.com. Title updated since abstract submitted.

16:01:34 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H1.

16:01:35 <kendallclark> (this should be fun)

16:01:54 <edd> H:Part of the product presentation track, so expect biased presentation.

16:01:54 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H2.

16:02:14 <evlist> I:Presenter(s): Barbara Hutson, Desk Officer, EPA, United States

16:02:15 <dc_rdfig> Added comment I1.

16:03:03 <kendallclark> G:Why Standards? interop & lower cost

16:03:03 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G3.

16:03:19 <kendallclark> G:the typical 19th c. railway gauge example (wow, that's so tired)

16:03:19 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G4.

16:03:24 <evlist> I:Chris Lilley says they can't locate our speaker... If anyone has seen her, please wave!

16:03:24 <dc_rdfig> Added comment I2.

16:03:39 <kendallclark> G:"standardization of 'net protocols => explosive growth of the web"

16:03:39 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G5.

16:04:05 <kendallclark> G:standardization of WS will lead to "explosive biz integration growth" in the next 20 yrs.

16:04:05 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G6.

16:04:43 <kendallclark> G:Yet another WS stack -- hasn't all this been rather covered before?

16:04:43 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G7.

16:04:55 <kendallclark> G:It's very late '02.

16:04:55 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G8.

16:05:04 <edd> well, some people are newbies at the conf, kendall

16:05:30 <edd> there's a Manager - Intermediate - Technical rating of each presentation on the program

16:05:49 * kendallclark stands (or, rather, sits) corrected

16:06:01 <kendallclark> i'm just in the wrong talk, then :>

16:06:10 <evlist> I:This talk is cancelled...

16:06:10 <dc_rdfig> Added comment I3.

16:06:16 <edd> well, I'd hope you would find it all old-hat :)

16:06:25 <kendallclark> heh

16:07:04 <kendallclark> so, it's a good thing i'm on my own kit, since i'm making a hash already :>

16:07:29 <evlist> BLURB: The craft of SVG, unscheduled talk by Philip A. Mansfield

16:07:29 <dc_rdfig> J: The craft of SVG, unscheduled talk by Philip A. Mansfield from evlist

16:07:29 <edd> H:Explains Amazon customer sets: buyers, sellers (merchants who sell on Amazon's platform), Web site owners (Associates), and Developers (people who use their web services)

16:07:30 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H3.

16:08:02 <edd> H:Amazon Associates founded in 1996, over 1,000,000 registered associates.

16:08:02 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H4.

16:09:03 <kendallclark> >30k reg'd developers, too

16:09:09 <kendallclark> or so i read the other month

16:10:16 <kendallclark> G:Complex WS 'provide for secure reliable delivery of messages'

16:10:16 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G9.

16:10:29 <kendallclark> G:as opposed to simple WS, one wonders a bit snarkily.

16:10:29 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G10.

16:10:38 <edd> H:They've developed many feature components inside their firewall as part of their platform. They're just starting to expose some of these web services to customers.

16:10:39 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H5.

16:11:07 <edd> H:These components include things like the catalog, shopping cart, personalization

16:11:07 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H6.

16:11:29 <edd> H:Says they have ambitious plans to expose many more web services.

16:11:29 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H7.

16:11:33 <kendallclark> H:Amazon should provide a UPC barcode sticker with each book purchased, so I can track my library. (Thanks to Bijan for suggesting this to me the other day, whilst browsing my stacks.)

16:11:33 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H8.

16:12:07 <evlist> jql: SVG export filters are not enough, native SVG editors that focus on design objective are needed.

16:12:16 <evlist> jql: SVG export filters are not enough, native SVG editors that focus on design objective are needed.

16:12:37 <edd> H:How Amazon got to web services: partners needed better data access -- some had XML feeds, others scraped -- this was expensive and brittle method of collaboration.

16:12:37 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H9.

16:12:39 <kendallclark> sorry, edd, but yr churning the other talk is more interesting than the talk i'm listening to :>

16:12:45 * evlist has no idea what's that "jql"!

16:12:58 <edd> evlist: don't leave a space after "J:"

16:13:03 <edd> it's your irc client doing nick completion

16:13:06 <evlist> J:SVG export filters are not enough, native SVG editors that focus on design objective are needed.

16:13:07 <dc_rdfig> Added comment J1.

16:13:14 <evlist> thanks edd

16:13:21 <kendallclark> G:ws-reliability and ws-reliable messaging -- competing specs (?)

16:13:22 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G11.

16:15:15 <kendallclark> G:Hmm, he does make an interesting point in the new way that standards are being developed; small grp of vendors works something out privately, then tries to have a standards body bless it. (This is really extra-W3C efforts, I think. That's harder to do in W3C.)

16:15:15 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G12.

16:15:32 <edd> H:Web service aims: support industry stds, provide remote access to data and functionality, decouple presentation, create a *software platform*, unlock creatiity, and leverage further their internal investment in their web sites.

16:15:32 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H10.

16:15:56 <evlist> J:Styling graphics through CSS is something really novel. Lets you style many graphics with a single CSS.

16:15:56 <dc_rdfig> Added comment J2.

16:16:49 <evlist> J:Or style a single SVG with multiple CSS for multiple medias.

16:16:49 <dc_rdfig> Added comment J3.

16:17:05 <kendallclark> G:The data-related WS standards are particularly mature.

16:17:05 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G13.

16:17:56 <kendallclark> G:WSDL seems to have won the day for describing interfaces; BEPL for "internal process defs" and ws-choreography for multi-org cooperation.

16:17:56 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G14.

16:19:07 <edd> H:Planning for web services, issues: Revenue -- intended to make their web services strategy revenue generating, rather than a "science experiment." So they'd support Associates and Sellers as their first stage. Licence Issues -- provide a degree of openness, protect rights of developers and Amazon, ensure data freshness, support Amazon's business model, and control their server load.

16:19:08 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H11.

16:19:17 <kendallclark> G:after data and messaging/coordination layers, he turns to 'semantic definitions' -- i.e., how do we specify 'order', 'invoice', etc.

16:19:17 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G15.

16:20:24 <kendallclark> G:Says UBL (universal biz lang) 'gaining traction'

16:20:25 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G16.

16:20:36 <edd> H:Licensing issues resolved by constraints: 1 call per second, cannot resell data, must link to amazon.com, store non-pricing data for up to 24 hours, pricing data for up to 1 hour

16:20:36 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H12.

16:21:13 <kendallclark> H:(Does that mean pricing data changes rapidly, as a rule?)

16:21:13 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H13.

16:21:40 <evlist> J:Demo styling the same SVG for a poster, a small image and a fax with 3 different CSS.

16:21:40 <dc_rdfig> Added comment J4.

16:21:50 <kendallclark> G:Next, 'profiles, policies, agreements' (this is the level at which a SemWeb company like network inference wants to get involved)

16:21:50 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G17.

16:22:37 <edd> H:Pricing data includes availability data, which I think is the key issue.

16:22:38 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H14.

16:23:09 <kendallclark> ah, interesting

16:23:25 <kendallclark> i hadn't noticed amazon being super price-sensitive, so i was wondering...

16:24:35 <edd> H:Protocol decisions: should they support SOAP or XML over HTTP (REST). They decided to let developers make the choice and support both. Though SOAP is the industry standard, it makes up just 15% of calls to the Amazon web services.

16:24:36 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H15.

16:25:00 <kendallclark> H:Awesome statistic. :>

16:25:00 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H16.

16:25:07 <edd> H:Noted the possibility of XSLT transformations as being a factor in the more vanilla XML delivery: they'll even do the XSLT transform for you.

16:25:07 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H17.

16:26:56 <kendallclark> G:Next, need a way to manage these WS.

16:26:56 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G18.

16:27:44 <edd> H:Issue: how to create a platform for developers. Resolution: use best practices from normal software world: document APIs, commit to API stability and backward compatibility.

16:27:45 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H18.

16:29:19 <edd> H:Developer support: how to help developers to succeed. Resolution: discussion board, weekly developer chats, regular newsletter, frequent releases, online FAQ.

16:29:19 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H19.

16:29:41 <edd> H:(Maybe some hints here for the semweb world in engaging developers.)

16:29:41 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H20.

16:29:52 <evlist> J:Demo of diagrams generated through XSLT. Pretty impressive, I'd be curious to see the XSLT!

16:29:52 <dc_rdfig> Added comment J5.

16:30:07 <kendallclark> gee, if semwebbers had any fraction of amazon's resources... but good pt.

16:30:21 <edd> well, we do use online chat well-ish

16:30:38 <edd> i can't say that the mailing lists are that great for users

16:31:10 <kendallclark> amazon just has *such* compelling data.

16:31:32 <kendallclark> any tech it chose to showcase would end up seeming better than it prolly is -- the opposite of guilt by association :>

16:31:49 <edd> H:Responsivity and openness to their developer community has worked well for them.

16:31:49 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H21.

16:32:29 <kendallclark> responsivity their word or yrs?

16:33:09 <edd> H:History of releases: July 2003 AWS 1.0 (SOAP/REST interfaces, SDK, merchandising), Nov 2002 v 2.0 (market place support, quick click), April 2003, v3.0 (seller APIs, remote shopping cart, UK data), July 2003 incorp German and Japanese data.

16:33:09 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H22.

16:33:13 <edd> kendallclark: theirs :)

16:33:32 <edd> H21:"Responsivity" and openness to their developer community has worked well for them.

16:33:32 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment H21.

16:34:06 <edd> H:Growing their internal developer team by 5 times for next year -- pretty good marker of how they're getting behind the strategy.

16:34:06 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H23.

16:34:08 <kendallclark> edd: i thought so. :>

16:34:21 <timte> I'm trying to figure out RFD, so I figured I'd go for a simple example - RSS

16:34:55 <kendallclark> hmm, creative commons' RDF is even simpler, if you want a very simple example. Well, IMO.

16:35:28 <timte> But what is RDF-unique about RSS? It's just an XML file, what is RDF about it?

16:35:52 <kendallclark> you're asking about rss 1.0, right?

16:36:02 <Arnia> timte: Hello, fancy seeing you here :)

16:36:09 <kendallclark> other versions of rss are *not* rdf, just "mere XML"

16:36:16 <timte> hey Arnia :)

16:36:29 <timte> oh, I wasn't aware of any versions

16:37:08 <kendallclark> oh, well. the single most important (alas) fact about RSS is that there are 10 * 5^23 competing versions. :<

16:37:10 <timte> Arnia: well, you tricked me into this business :)

16:37:17 <edd> timte: you might want to read http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2002/12/18/dive-into-xml.html

16:37:21 <kendallclark> er, 5 * 10^23, but you get the point :>

16:37:51 <Arnia> timte: Are you part of Ticle?

16:38:41 <timte> Arnia: no, don't even know what it is

16:39:04 <Arnia> timte: Ok, good. I was going to have a mild rant ;)

16:39:09 <kendallclark> timte: if yr goal is to learn RDF, rather than RSS necessarily, check out creative commons.

16:39:10 <edd> H:Moving out of purely web sites: there's an add-on for Office 2003 that can search the catalog and insert product metadata into your documents in various forms.

16:39:10 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H24.

16:39:23 <timte> ok, going there

16:39:40 <kendallclark> H:So, how long till MS feels "threatened" by Amazon and buys it? :>

16:39:40 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H25.

16:40:45 <Arnia> timte: Also, RDF Primer and various usecases in SWAP (http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/)

16:41:03 <timte> rdf primer I've read

16:41:19 <edd> H:Challenge to developers of Amazon Web Services: got to know XML, XSLT, understand architecture of a distributed system, deploy caching for decent performance. Log the results of the calls, handle error conditions, degrade gracefully.

16:41:20 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H26.

16:41:28 <edd> H26:Challenge to developers using Amazon Web Services: got to know XML, XSLT, understand architecture of a distributed system, deploy caching for decent performance. Log the results of the calls, handle error conditions, degrade gracefully.

16:41:29 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment H26.

16:41:43 <timte> What's dc_rdfig ranting about?

16:41:51 <dajobe> read the topic

16:42:13 <timte> kendallclark: ok, I'm on creative commons, but what is RDF except RSS?

16:42:29 <kendallclark> i don't understand the question, exactly

16:42:44 <edd> H:(Room pretty packed out here.)

16:42:44 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H27.

16:42:50 <kendallclark> but CC uses RDF to express 'digital rights' about resources, and it's a very simple little set of predicates

16:42:54 <edd> H:Techs underneath: Linux, Apache, Perl, C++, Oracle

16:42:54 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H28.

16:43:05 <Arnia> timte: RDF is just a model of information

16:43:13 <timte> Arnia: I know

16:43:27 <timte> But I wanna know what you can use it for :)'

16:43:46 <kendallclark> so, iirc, you can use a cc web app to build an rdf doc which expresses some metadata about a web resource.

16:43:53 <Arnia> timte: I still haven't run out of use cases :)

16:44:11 * kendallclark looks for a new talk to attend

16:44:31 <Arnia> timte: http://www.w3.org/2000/01/sw/Overview.html

16:44:33 * eikeon waves, hi all

16:44:45 <edd>http://www.xmlconference.org/xmlusa/2003/tuesday.asp#12

16:44:45 <dc_rdfig> K: http://www.xmlconference.org/xmlusa/2003/tuesday.asp#12 from edd

16:44:55 <edd> K:|Visual Scripting of XML for Webservices

16:44:55 <dc_rdfig> Titled item K.

16:45:21 <Arnia> timte: RDF as a basis for programming - http://www.nosightatnight.co.uk/archive/000011.html

16:45:30 * kendallclark bails on the CEO talk

16:45:34 <edd> K:David Webber and Paul Stannard, Smartdraw. Another product presentation.

16:45:35 <dc_rdfig> Added comment K1.

16:45:43 <Arnia> timte: http://www.nosightatnight.co.uk/archive/000022.html

16:46:00 <Arnia> timte: http://www.nosightatnight.co.uk/archive/000025.html

16:50:13 <timte> ok, now I have stuff to read

16:51:22 <Arnia> Although my articles are hardly orthodox ;)

16:51:41 <dajobe> timte: read about FOAF, http://rdfweb.org/

16:52:22 <timte> I've read about FOAF, but I think it was a rather boring topic. Nothing I have use for :)

16:52:55 <dajobe> ah well. that's a shame

16:53:05 <evlist>http://www.xmlconference.org/xmlusa/2003/tuesday.asp#10

16:53:05 <dc_rdfig> L: http://www.xmlconference.org/xmlusa/2003/tuesday.asp#10 from evlist

16:53:06 <Arnia> I think FOAF is an amazing application... very applicable :)

16:53:10 <timte> he knows her and she knows him - how exciting ;)

16:53:44 <evlist> L:Adding Another Dimension to Scalable Vector Graphics - Presenter Philip A. Mansfield

16:53:44 <dc_rdfig> Added comment L1.

16:53:51 <dajobe> timte: it's not some dumb dating site

16:54:05 <timte> :)

16:54:19 <dajobe> maybe you should read it again and find out about codepiction, geo information, weblogs, and the millions of users

16:54:26 <Arnia> Does anyone have a link to the Dan Brickley article on RDF usecases?

16:54:37 <edd> evlist: did you mean L:| ?

16:54:49 <timte> ah, yeah, weblogs would be a usecase for foaf

16:55:01 <evlist> L:|Adding Another Dimension to Scalable Vector Graphics - Presenter Philip A. Mansfield

16:55:01 <dc_rdfig> Titled item L.

16:55:07 <evlist> L1:""

16:55:07 <dc_rdfig> Deleted comment L1.

16:55:15 <evlist> yes, thanks edd

16:55:15 <Arnia> timte: FOAF can also form the basis for trust networks

16:55:18 <dajobe> timte: duh. It's already there and described on the foaf site. Go back and reread :)

16:55:29 <edd> K:Creating document pipelines and process-oriented applications through diagramming.

16:55:30 <dc_rdfig> Added comment K2.

16:55:30 <Wack> another dimension? describing 3d surfaces with svg? ... interesting

16:55:39 <timte> dajobe: Maybe I read some other foaf sites :)

16:55:52 <Arnia> timte: And social mapping is vital for many information systems

16:56:10 <evlist> L:The subject seems very popular and the rooms fills up.

16:56:10 <dc_rdfig> Added comment L1.

16:57:07 <timte> Ok, I surrender, foaf is nice.

16:57:53 <timte> But I want something I can implement, so it will be fun learning rdf.

16:58:07 <timte> Is there some RDF stuff that are Jabber related?

16:58:13 <timte> Are...

16:58:17 <Arnia> timte: What do you mean by 'implement'?

16:58:24 <timte> code

16:58:31 <Arnia> timte: http://haystack.lcs.mit.edu

16:58:42 <Arnia> timte: Might be a nice platform for you

16:58:44 <dajobe> oh pleeze, that'd put anyone off

16:58:45 <kendallclark> L:A presentation motivated by the speaker's desire to show someone up, as he put it. :>

16:58:45 <dc_rdfig> Added comment L2.

16:59:21 <kendallclark> L:3-D SVG gets around the 'visualization ghetto' problem of VRML/X3D

16:59:21 <dc_rdfig> Added comment L3.

16:59:52 <Arnia> dajobe: Depends... I've gotten a lot of good ideas from the system. Its just slow

17:00:11 <timte> Arnia: Is it better than Plone? :)

17:00:17 <dajobe> it's slow like a java system from 1995

17:00:37 <Arnia> dajobe: Yes, but the concepts are often good

17:01:00 <Arnia> timte: I'm using some UI concepts (such as UI continuations) in the Plone 3 UI plan

17:01:46 <timte> Arnia: oh, cool

17:02:03 <timte> What is UI continuations? :)

17:02:18 <kendallclark> L:Uses something called the "world3D" XML vocabulary

17:02:18 <dc_rdfig> Added comment L4.

17:02:37 <kendallclark> L:projection/lighting computed by client javascript

17:02:37 <dc_rdfig> Added comment L5.

17:03:45 <Arnia> timte: See papers on the Haystack site

17:06:11 <edd> hi dancon. xml 2003 chumping underway in force here :)

17:06:34 <kendallclark> BLURB:Very little OSX/Rendezvous presence here

17:06:34 <dc_rdfig> M: Very little OSX/Rendezvous presence here from kendallclark

17:07:03 <kendallclark> MarkB: I pop up AIM rendezvous chat, to see who's around, and it's just me and danbri, who happens to be sitting next to me, so we hardly need it. Oh well.

17:07:20 <kendallclark> M:I pop up AIM rendezvous chat, to see who's around, and it's just me and danbri, who happens to be sitting next to me, so we hardly need it. Oh well.

17:07:20 <dc_rdfig> Added comment M1.

17:07:57 <timte> Arnia: It was from Haystack I got the idea of "Active Tasks" that we were talking about.

17:07:59 * DanCon waves to edd, wondering what folks are doing for lunch

17:08:15 <kendallclark> reading terminal market, the only way to fly

17:08:16 <DanCon> I'm still booting up; got out of phase while travelling. had a nice refreshing swim.

17:08:21 <kendallclark> though chinatown would be nice too

17:08:38 <kendallclark> oh,

17:08:40 <kendallclark> DanCon: hi

17:08:55 <DanCon> hi kendallclark

17:09:00 <Arnia> timte: Yeah, I still prefer the idea of being able to turn any content type into a task. I just see a task as adding certain additional information onto another content type that describes the task or its product

17:09:12 <edd> the expo opens also at lunch, complimentary lunch in the expo hall

17:09:12 <Arnia> timte: Very RDFish view though :)

17:09:14 <kendallclark> i was supposed to deliver an owl for you, from hendler, but it got left in DC.

17:09:25 * AnkhGone waves to edd

17:09:28 <AnkhGone> oh

17:09:30 <AnkhGone> AnkhGone is now known as Ankh

17:09:40 <kendallclark> yeah-but... philly's like the 3rd or 4th best eating city in the colonies...!

17:09:51 <Ankh> (although I'm not in philly for the conference this year)

17:10:14 <edd> Ankh: aye, a shame. seems the rest of the w3c is here.

17:10:22 <edd> i had to doubletake to persuade myself this wasn't the web conference :)

17:10:29 <DanCon> these guys rock... "NeTraverse is pleased to announce support for the 2.6 Linux kernel in conjunction with Win4Lin 5.1."

17:10:37 <Ankh> heh, well, 15 or so I think, out of approx. 70 of us

17:10:51 <kendallclark> 'tis a shame that didn't make a bigger diff to the talks

17:10:55 <edd> Ankh: given previous xml conferences, that seems like a five fold increase at least.

17:11:04 <Ankh> edd, there is that, yeah

17:11:25 * edd hopes he can persuade similar numbers to xml europe

17:11:36 <edd> hints in how to make it attractive to w3cers welcome, of course

17:11:40 <Ankh> where is it? Dublin?

17:11:49 <edd> Amsterdam

17:11:50 <kendallclark> i'll be there, as long as it's in philly! :>

17:11:58 <kendallclark> edd: when is it?

17:12:03 <edd> co-located with Seybold 2004. April 18-21.

17:12:04 <Ankh> well, that makes it attractive.

17:12:17 <Ankh> hmm, not been to Seybold for ages.

17:12:21 <dajobe> yeah, Amsterdam++

17:12:35 * kendallclark a bit bummed i didn't get to go to amsterdam for rdf storage

17:12:41 <Ankh> and could visit our Amsterdam office. Well, maybe I'll submit a paper.

17:12:44 <kendallclark> a pleasantly distracting place

17:13:48 <timte> Arnia: I agree, that could be cool. I first thought of a type having references too wiki, blog, summary, deadline and contributors.

17:14:54 <Arnia> timte: I'm against predetermining what sorts of information can be described by a task. You can never hope to be complete or even nearly complete. This isn't the place to discuss this however

17:19:14 <DanCon> phpht. evolution crash. perhaps I'll take the hint and quit reading mail.

17:20:13 * edd notes the hotel internet provision in the marriott is flaky in the extreme.

17:20:26 <edd> also there's free 802.11 access in the marriott lobby lounge.

17:20:33 <kendallclark> it's good at the warwick

17:20:46 <kendallclark> but i'm prolly the only one staying over there

17:26:07 * DanCon fishes for clues on how to meet kendallclark, edd for lunch

17:26:45 <DanCon> oops; made the mistake of reading the feedback on my advogato article; journal of the 1st commentor includes tasty bits like "I'm talking to Larry about the issues he raises; my main point is I think the value of conference blogging far outweighs its costs, a point on which we are in agreement and perhaps Brian Leiter is not."

17:26:46 <kendallclark> hmm, well, you could walk around, at random, screaming our names very loudly...

17:27:48 * sandro__ amused at the thought

17:28:18 * kendallclark horrified

17:31:41 <edd> i'll be around in the expo hall, dancon, kendall

17:31:48 <edd> will fish for folk there, i guess.

17:32:12 <edd> decision can be made whether to head out to the terminal market or not then. lunch break is 1.5 hrs iirc, quite generous

17:32:40 <kendallclark> ok, i'll collect danc at the 'bookstore' and we'll find you

17:34:09 * sandro is reminded of advogato by DanC; finally gets around to creating an account ("sandro"). (certifications welcome.)

17:35:29 * sandro reads about the distinction between Master and Journeyer.... Huh.

17:39:19 <edd> and now, lunch!

17:50:35 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

18:43:30 <darobin_> darobin_ is now known as darobin

18:56:18 <evlist>http://www.xmlconference.org/xmlusa/2003/tuesday.asp#16

18:56:18 <dc_rdfig> N: http://www.xmlconference.org/xmlusa/2003/tuesday.asp#16 from evlist

18:57:18 <evlist> N:|Generating User Interfaces from Composite Schemas, Patrick Garvey & William J. French

18:57:18 <dc_rdfig> Titled item N.

19:06:08 * danbri waves from talk on generating ui from xml schemas

19:07:34 <ChrisDodo> be sure to write up and collect all the URLs for us :)

19:09:08 * kendallclark listening to xml & governance

19:09:25 <Ankh> eek

19:09:37 <Ankh> a UI for editing the document?

19:10:03 <danbri> xformish stuff

19:10:10 <Ankh> hmm ok

19:10:25 <Ankh> do they handle mixed content, like paragraphs with embedded markup?

19:11:50 <evlist> N:Patrick Garvey explained the motivation of model based development for XML applications and mentions previous work on generating forms from schemas.

19:11:50 <dc_rdfig> Added comment N1.

19:12:41 <evlist> N:Their work is based on XSLT transformations generating XForms forms out of annotated W3C XML Schema schemas.

19:12:42 <dc_rdfig> Added comment N2.

19:18:03 <evlist> N:Patrick Garvey goes through the details of the pain of processing WXS schemas with XSLT.

19:18:03 <dc_rdfig> Added comment N3.

19:19:26 <evlist> N:Now comes demo time (William J. French)

19:19:27 <dc_rdfig> Added comment N4.

19:28:58 <kendallclark> hi aaron

19:29:06 <AaronSw> hi

19:30:40 <iwaim> iwaim is now known as iwaiAway

19:32:05 <evlist> N:|More on their [web page|http://cde.berkeley.edu/publications/uigen-xml-2003/].

19:32:05 <dc_rdfig> Titled item N.

19:32:46 <evlist> N:More on their [web page|http://cde.berkeley.edu/publications/uigen-xml-2003/].

19:32:46 <dc_rdfig> Added comment N5.

19:33:02 <evlist> N:|Generating User Interfaces from Composite Schemas, Patrick Garvey & William J. French

19:33:02 <dc_rdfig> Titled item N.

19:34:54 <kendallclark> ah, quote of the talk: "If your data is crap, there's no use in doing integration." Indeed.

19:35:11 <bijan> Not true

19:35:16 <bijan> You can crap up other peoples

19:35:18 <bijan> stuff

19:35:25 <bijan> So, *integrated* crap

19:35:27 <Ankh> if yuo don't do integration you can't spread the crap, and every farmer knows you get the best crops if you spread the muck

19:35:48 <kendallclark> ah, these are good points!

19:35:59 <kendallclark> there's no crap like integrated crap

19:37:23 * Ankh gets a nullpointerexception at swordfish.rdfweb.org's search thing

19:38:26 <Ankh> libby: *wave* :-) I did a search for "e", possibly too many matches or something? query for z also fails though.

19:42:08 <DanC_jam> what's the "tell me my key fingerprint" command for gpg?

19:42:38 <libby> hey ankh, quite possibly. which search thing?

19:42:52 <Ankh> oh. squish I think it was called

19:42:55 <DanC_jam> $ gpg --fingerprint connolly

19:42:56 <DanC_jam> pub 1024D/6E52C29E 2002-05-07 Dan Connolly (2002-05) <connolly@w3.org>

19:42:56 <DanC_jam> Key fingerprint = D3C2 887B 0F92 6005 C541 0875 0F91 96DE 6E52 C29E

19:42:57 <Ankh> how's libbly?!?

19:43:12 <libby> was it rweb/who or codepict?

19:43:35 * kendallclark yawns

19:45:16 <danbri> danbri is now known as ericP_

19:45:31 <MarkB> eeek

19:45:57 <evlist>http://www.xmlconference.org/xmlusa/2003/tuesday.asp#22

19:45:57 <dc_rdfig> O: http://www.xmlconference.org/xmlusa/2003/tuesday.asp#22 from evlist

19:46:27 <evlist> O:|Strange Creations: Prototyping XML Data on the Desktop - David Megginson

19:46:27 <dc_rdfig> Titled item O.

19:47:41 * DanC_jam waves from megginson's talk, wondering what chump letter it has...

19:47:59 <DanC_jam> "The Birks: XML is for Blogging"

19:48:02 * MarkB checks his keys, notices he missed his PGP key's 10th anniversary a few weeks ago

19:48:24 <evlist> O:Two big things in XML now: web services if you want to make money, blog if you're a birk...

19:48:24 <dc_rdfig> Added comment O1.

19:49:19 * DanC_jam gave James Clark a christmas card for nxml-mode

19:49:57 <DanC_jam> O:"The Birks: XML is for Blogging"

19:49:57 <dc_rdfig> Added comment O2.

19:51:40 <DanC_jam> XML data on *my* desktop is getting pretty smart. but yes, megginson is right, that for most desktops, there isn't much smart data.

19:52:30 <DanC_jam> O:DM says there's an incredible amount of data available; U.S. govt now publishes their stuff. Finnish pilots can get more about finland from the U.S. govt than from their own govt

19:52:30 <dc_rdfig> Added comment O3.

19:52:57 <DanC_jam> buying software retail. sigh. people do that, don't they?

19:53:02 <kendallclark> golbeck: hi

19:53:14 <golbeck> hi kendallclark !

19:53:20 <golbeck> how's PA?

19:53:45 <kendallclark> golbeck: well, philly's like my fav place in the US, so I'm in heaven (almost literally)!

19:53:54 <kendallclark> i'm staying in rittenhouse, so drool-drool

19:53:55 <DanC_jam> O:"... taking a clue from CEOs, who never read anything, but only summaries of things, like we all do for W3C specs." 1/2 ;-)

19:53:56 <dc_rdfig> Added comment O4.

19:54:28 <DanC_jam> which conference is Megginson talking about?

19:55:26 <DanC_jam> computers making people smarter together... the prophet Douglas Adams wrote about this, no?

19:55:28 <ericP_> ericP_ is now known as danbri

19:56:01 <DanC_jam> O:the Irish invented putting spaces beteween words.

19:56:01 <dc_rdfig> Added comment O5.

19:56:51 * DanC_jam notes his mother and father's surnames are found commonly on street signs in Ireland

19:57:00 * danbri enjoying this talk (megginson's)

19:57:08 <Ankh> he's a good speaker

19:57:39 <DanC_jam> O:The RDF 1.0 spec was the scariest thing ever to come out of W3C. WG didn't use words that anybody understood.

19:57:39 <dc_rdfig> Added comment O6.

19:57:59 <danbri> O:"RDF stuff good but a bit academic... but some crossover... the bloggers are coming up with stuff like Friend of a Friend, ...."

19:57:59 <dc_rdfig> Added comment O7.

19:58:21 * danbri pulls an I'm not a blogger face, but yup, definitely an afinity foaf<->blogland

19:59:00 * sandro reacts to that too. Anarchic librarians (if you don't mind me calling you that, danbri) came up with FOAF.

19:59:12 <kendallclark> if dean gets elected, i'm gonna blame danbri -wink-

19:59:33 <kendallclark> hehe, "FOAF as Infoshop Infrastructure: From Kopotkin, to Chomsky, to danbri"

19:59:40 * DanC_jam is becoming acutely aware of Dean... one for...

19:59:49 <DanC_jam> .google CivicDuty dm93

19:59:50 <datum> CivicDuty dm93: http://dm93.org/z2001/CivicDuty

20:00:04 <kendallclark> doh! s/Kopotkin/Kropotkin/

20:00:16 <danbri> I am psyched about the foaf/dean connection...

20:00:33 <danbri> and that their hackers live nearby in #deanspace

20:00:46 <kendallclark> eh, it makes me a little queasy, for reasons i don't really grok

20:00:58 <DanC_jam> if only dean's actual ideas didn't conflict with things I believe pretty strongly. 1/2 ;-)

20:01:18 <kendallclark> karl rove prolly laughs every night, as he ingests the blood of innocent children, about granola-hacker types going up against Bush.

20:01:42 <kendallclark> DanC: like the strong anti-gun controls stance?! :>

20:02:15 <danbri> heh, the tools are opensource, would be interesting to see them getting used by folks of other viewspoints (though I could see that being tricky for marketing reasons)

20:02:34 * DanC_jam hopes to grok the follow-the-money situation around gun control

20:02:45 * DanC_jam wonders if wikipedia will help

20:02:54 <kendallclark> DanC: which dean positions do you not agree w/?

20:03:13 * DanC_jam doesn't remember clearly

20:03:28 <sandro> You think campain contributions affect Dean's gun stance? I think it's just that he's from Vermont.

20:03:53 <DanC_jam> wierd... why does Megginson think this is hard with RDF?

20:03:53 <kendallclark> i rather doubt its nra $$

20:04:13 <DanC_jam> did you see that the NRA is trying to get licensed as a media output?

20:04:19 <AaronSw> kendallclark, my guess is that DanC doesn't like his position on abortion

20:04:31 <AaronSw> I can't think of anything else particualarly objectionable

20:04:37 <kendallclark> civil unions?

20:04:44 <AaronSw> he's against them

20:04:47 <evlist> O:DM complains that RDF isn't friendly toward denormalization (can't add denormalized information in reference to resources)

20:04:47 <dc_rdfig> Added comment O8.

20:04:51 <kendallclark> as you said the other day, aaron, dean isn't that lib.

20:05:07 <Ankh> hi Aaron!

20:05:08 * DanC_jam wonders if there's a better channel for CivicDuty and Dean and the like

20:05:09 <sandro> He's against what? Dean's for civil unions for all.

20:05:19 <AaronSw> He thinks it's a state issue.

20:05:28 <kendallclark> DanC: yes, i'll dial the #politics back a bit :>

20:05:41 <kendallclark> but, we got here in a legit way, with the dean hackers bit

20:05:58 <GabeW> did someone say dean?

20:06:11 <DanC_jam> I'd like to continue the Dean conversation, but in a more suitable forum

20:06:18 * sandro painfully remembers Clinton's promise and congressional response on Gays in the Miliary -- is happy for a President who knows his limits.

20:06:19 * kendallclark done

20:06:40 <GabeW> most forums are for dean supporters - not sure of one for folks who aren't already on board

20:06:51 <GabeW> (that is, IRC channels)

20:06:58 <kendallclark> one good bit about bailing on the talks is i can listen to my Moby iTunes playlist. yay for moby.

20:07:03 <sandro> This is lunch-time politcal chat among friends, not Politcal Chat.

20:07:09 <evlist> O:DM Proposes a "PubXS" format that allows some level of denormalization.

20:07:10 <dc_rdfig> Added comment O9.

20:07:23 <DanC_jam> megginson jokes about spending $14 for the pubXS domain, but that's SO MUCH BETTER than made up 404 namespace names! Go David! yeah! hip hip!

20:07:36 <GabeW> oh ok, I' mjust duty bound to leap whenever I hear the Dr's name mentioned ;-)

20:07:44 <DanC_jam> .google UriSpaceSquatting

20:07:45 <datum> UriSpaceSquatting: http://esw.w3.org/topic/UriSpaceSquatting

20:07:57 <DanC_jam> ^megginson is *not* doing that, which most people do.

20:08:11 * DanC_jam notes a certain connection between CivicDuty and UriSpaceSquatting

20:08:26 <sandro> lol

20:08:30 * kendallclark was genuinely curious what about dean danc didn't like

20:08:37 <sandro> it's all the same in the BIIIIIIG Picture

20:09:02 <GabeW> #dean if you care

20:09:29 * DanC_jam looks forward to discussing Dean with kendallclark at another time; would rather not divide his attention further just now

20:09:53 <kendallclark> yep; was just clarifying that my interest was genuine & friendly

20:10:06 <DanC_jam> likewise.

20:10:12 <kendallclark> cool

20:10:26 <kendallclark> megginson is at least as interesting as dean, across the board

20:10:51 <DanC_jam> hmm... is megginson presenting the charter of the RDF 2.0 WG? if so, I wanna join. 1/2 ;-)

20:11:22 <evlist> O:The "pubxs:link" attribute looks more like xlink:href than like rdf:resource.

20:11:32 <DanC_jam> how so, evlist?

20:11:34 * kendallclark heard unreliable rumor of the first WG i've ever cared to join

20:12:04 <danbri> <DanC_jam>I'd like to continue the Dean conversation, but in a more suitable forum

20:12:31 <danbri> apart from #rdfig being busy with XML2003, I'm happy to see people talk Technology<->Society stuff in RDF Interest Group fora

20:12:54 <evlist> When he write <location pubxs:link="countries.xml#CA">Canada</location> it looks like he could have used xlink:href, no?

20:12:55 <danbri> talking about our own views, dunno, some folks mightn't be comfortable... dunno...

20:13:20 <dc_rdfig> Added comment O10.

20:15:10 <DanC_jam> hey! an adventure game is what Liam did to grok RDF too.

20:15:34 <DanC_jam> what's the thingy to connect the log with the chump?

20:15:41 <DanC_jam> logger, chump O

20:15:41 <DanC_jam> O:See [http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2003-12-09#T20-15-41|discussion]

20:15:42 <dc_rdfig> Added comment O11.

20:16:27 <DanC_jam> video games are definitely the way to teach technologies.

20:16:53 <Ankh> my adventure game was written to try and find a way to teach rdf

20:16:58 <danbri> :)

20:17:02 <Ankh> but otherwise agred :)

20:17:04 <danbri> I made an RDF MOO thingie too, http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/2001/06/rdfperl/current/samples/moo.rdf

20:17:09 <kendallclark> well, or squeak -- directly manipulate live objects in a multimedia environ

20:17:18 <danbri> MOO's data model is very close to RDF's

20:17:21 <danbri> .google rdf moo

20:17:22 <datum> rdf moo: http://ilrt.org/discovery/2001/03/rdf-moo/

20:17:24 <kendallclark> that's way fun and very pedagogic

20:17:28 <dajobe>http://www.esws2004.org/

20:17:28 <dc_rdfig> P: http://www.esws2004.org/ from dajobe

20:17:42 <dajobe> P:|"1st" European Semantic Web Symposium

20:17:42 <dc_rdfig> Titled item P.

20:17:57 <Ankh>http://dirk.holoweb.net/~liam/rdfg/rdfg.cgi

20:17:58 <dc_rdfig> Q: http://dirk.holoweb.net/~liam/rdfg/rdfg.cgi from Ankh

20:18:04 <dajobe> P:worst web site recently seen. The only text in this page is in the <title>

20:18:05 <dc_rdfig> Added comment P1.

20:18:44 <DanC_jam> ctrl-c is a 2-finger salute, no?

20:19:27 <dajobe> P:thanks to [http://www.haddock.org/directory/?i=19603|Haddock] *and the award for most ironic use of giftext goes to...*

20:19:27 <dc_rdfig> Added comment P2.

20:19:28 <Ankh> Q: Liam's RDF adventure game (might not be 100% working because of bitrot but looks OK at a glance)

20:19:29 <dc_rdfig> Added comment Q1.

20:19:42 <Ankh> (although that's not relevent to the conference, hopw you don't mind)

20:19:53 <DanC_jam> O:"2 special attributes and no mixed content" -- RDF 2.0 in a nutshell

20:19:53 <dc_rdfig> Added comment O12.

20:19:57 <DanC_jam> where else have I heard that? ;-)

20:21:01 <DanC_jam> O:I wonder if PubXS is isomorphic to [http://tap.stanford.edu/xemantics.html|XIOR]

20:21:01 <dc_rdfig> Added comment O13.

20:21:09 <danbri> :his 'ref' thing is basically rdfs:seeAlso, except he defines it as 'better info available from ...' rather than 'maybe some further info available ...'

20:21:15 <danbri> O:his 'ref' thing is basically rdfs:seeAlso, except he defines it as 'better info available from ...' rather than 'maybe some further info available ...'

20:21:15 <dc_rdfig> Added comment O14.

20:21:39 <DanC_jam> yes, I use a spreadsheet for RDF authoring quite a bit these days.

20:21:53 * DanC_jam at 40% battery. :-{

20:22:04 <kendallclark> power outlet situation sucks here, alas

20:22:08 <kendallclark> other than that, a nice facility

20:22:15 <libby> least you've got wireless :)

20:22:24 <kendallclark> for $40

20:23:05 <libby> erk

20:23:15 <DanC_jam> . Q: what about the fact that lots of data is in databases?

20:23:24 <DanC_jam> good question; RDF query to the rescue!

20:24:06 <dajobe> P:*lynx -dump -nolist http://www.esws2004.org/|wc -w* answer: 1

20:24:06 <dc_rdfig> Added comment P3.

20:25:15 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

20:26:45 <libby> C:[http://esw.w3.org/mt/esw/archives/000030.html|some rough ideas about using weblogs and the chump] (that sort of work)

20:26:45 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C6.

20:27:36 <DanC_jam> Q:|Liam's RDF adventure game

20:27:36 <dc_rdfig> Titled item Q.

20:29:56 * DanC_jam notes the volume of chump comments produced just today, sighs, wondering when he's gonna read it

20:30:14 <DanC_jam> "so much time, so little to do. no, strike that; reverse it" -- Willy Wonka

20:30:28 <DanC_jam> O:Megginson beats the "worse is better" drum pretty hard

20:30:28 <dc_rdfig> Added comment O15.

20:30:50 <kendallclark> it is a particularly churnful day

20:31:21 <kendallclark> heh, i can remember weeks on end when every day was like this when we were playing w/ the first churnbot

20:31:26 <kendallclark> it was totally out-of-control

20:36:20 * DanC_jam thanks megginson with a christmas card and a business card with pgp fingerprint

20:37:45 * DanC_jam wonders what's next?

20:37:49 * DanC_jam needs 110v

20:37:54 * Ankh pads off for luncheon

20:38:06 <Ankh> danc, I think Janet was looking for you

20:40:50 <Ankh> Ankh is now known as AnkhGone

20:42:19 <DanC_jam> roger, AnkhGone

20:42:37 <AnkhGone> :) (now I *am* gone)

20:48:56 <edd> hey bijan

20:49:02 <edd> are you in philly?

20:49:33 <bijan> No

20:49:35 <bijan> Still in the burbs

20:49:40 <bijan> Heading out soonish

20:49:52 <edd> is there a plan?

20:50:05 <bijan> 6 at harmony's

20:50:16 <bijan> 137 N. Ninth street

20:50:32 <bijan> Hmm. I thought K cleared this with you

20:50:39 <bijan> Could do a bit earlier if you'd like

20:50:55 <bijan> We came to see you after all!

20:51:05 <edd> I've been out of contact. So we're eating?

20:51:17 <bijan> Yep

20:51:21 <bijan> If that's ok.

20:51:29 <bijan> If not, zoe and I can comfort our selves with tears

20:51:53 <edd> hey, it works for me

20:52:03 <bijan> Excellent

20:52:05 <edd> i might also get an earlyish night too, which is good.

20:52:09 <bijan> It's an all veggie chinese place

20:52:11 <edd> so i'll walk down with k then

20:52:16 <bijan> With lots of mock meat dishes

20:52:21 <bijan> Quite excellent, period

20:52:33 <bijan> A longtime favorite of mine

20:53:00 <bijan> Ok, out of power. See round 6.

21:02:16 <edd> hey jon.

21:04:15 <danbri>http://dubinko.info/writing/xforms/

21:04:16 <dc_rdfig> R: http://dubinko.info/writing/xforms/ from danbri

21:04:43 <danbri> R:|Push Button Paradise in Print

21:04:43 <dc_rdfig> Titled item R.

21:04:55 <danbri> R:Author's Official Page for O'Reilly XForms Essentials

21:04:56 <dc_rdfig> Added comment R1.

21:06:16 <danbri> R:Micah's talking on this now, mentioned materials are in his O'Reilly book which is online under an open license.

21:06:16 <dc_rdfig> Added comment R2.

21:07:47 * DanC_jam sets up near power outlet in a nice big room.

21:09:17 <DanC_jam>http://www.xmlconference.org/xmlusa/2003/tuesday.asp#26

21:09:17 <dc_rdfig> S: http://www.xmlconference.org/xmlusa/2003/tuesday.asp#26 from DanC_jam

21:09:29 <DanC_jam> S:|Implementing UBL

21:09:29 <dc_rdfig> Titled item S.

21:09:41 <DanC_jam> S:Presenter(s): Mark R. Crawford, XML Lead, Logistics Management Institute, United States

21:09:41 <dc_rdfig> Added comment S1.

21:10:02 * DanC_jam waves to JeffSuttor

21:10:42 <dajobe> dajobe has changed the topic to: RDF, Semantic Web and XML 2003 Conference Philadelphia. Scratchpad http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/ logs http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/

21:10:49 <danbri> R:See also [http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/2002/Examples/|xforms example page].

21:10:49 <dc_rdfig> Added comment R3.

21:11:18 <DanC_jam> S:argues for UBL as a hub format

21:11:18 <dc_rdfig> Added comment S2.

21:12:00 <DanC_jam> S:"UBL on track to become international standard for trade through ISO TC 154"

21:12:00 <dc_rdfig> Added comment S3.

21:12:24 <DanC_jam> S:argues UBL provides the XML payload for ebXML

21:12:24 <dc_rdfig> Added comment S4.

21:12:46 <DanC_jam> S:non-proprietary, though based on work by CommerceOne

21:12:47 <dc_rdfig> Added comment S5.

21:13:02 <Jhendler> S: bio of presented (from last year) at [http://www.idealliance.org/papers/xml02/dx_xml02/html/bio/fd640cd0f4e1bf8b156f1d4e95.html| presenters bio]

21:13:02 <dc_rdfig> Added comment S6.

21:18:43 <danbri> .google xforms easter

21:18:44 <datum> xforms easter: http://blog.pengoworks.com/blogger/index.cfm?action=blog:17

21:18:57 <DanC_jam> S:hmm... connect these guys to the Semantic Web Best Practices WG?

21:18:57 <dc_rdfig> Added comment S7.

21:24:16 <DanC_jam> S:hmm... seem to have a different approach to namespaces

21:24:16 <dc_rdfig> Added comment S8.

21:24:56 <dajobe>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-rules/2003Dec/0030.html

21:24:56 <dc_rdfig> T: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-rules/2003Dec/0030.html from dajobe

21:25:01 <dajobe> T:|BOF on RDF query with XQuery/XPath at XML 2003

21:25:01 <dc_rdfig> Titled item T.

21:25:14 <dajobe> T:Wed 10th 17:30 room 108B

21:25:15 <dc_rdfig> Added comment T1.

21:25:27 <dajobe> oops

21:25:34 <dajobe> T1:Wed 10th 7:30pm room 108B

21:25:35 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment T1.

21:27:56 <DanC_jam> S:code lists... controlled vocabularies... definitely a topic for SemWeb best practices

21:27:56 <dc_rdfig> Added comment S9.

21:40:45 <danbri> R:Talk mentions Microsoft's [http://office.microsoft.com/infopath/|InfoPath]; apparently its data schemas recently released (presumably on this MS site somewhere).

21:40:46 <dc_rdfig> Added comment R4.

21:44:46 * danbri tries http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/200305/foaflang/xfoaf/foaf-xformsegp.xml in xsmiles

21:45:55 <danbri> get repainting problems in macosx, cant see anything :(

21:46:12 <evlist>http://www.xmlconference.org/xmlusa/2003/tuesday.asp#34

21:46:12 <dc_rdfig> U: http://www.xmlconference.org/xmlusa/2003/tuesday.asp#34 from evlist

21:46:13 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

21:46:47 <evlist> U:|Using XForms to Build New Generation Internet Applications - Mark R. Birbeck

21:46:47 <dc_rdfig> Titled item U.

21:49:29 <DanC_jam> darnit, XForms is on my "to learn" list; I'm clearly in the wrong room

21:49:44 <evlist> U:XForms is needed because the browser is/was too thin.

21:49:44 <dc_rdfig> Added comment U1.

21:57:05 <eaon|busy> eaon|busy is now known as eaon|zZz

22:02:45 <Jhendler> U: some of my students playing with generation of forms from OWL -- looks to be easier than XML forms according to them

22:02:45 <dc_rdfig> Added comment U2.

22:02:52 <Jhendler> U: not clear, however, if as general

22:02:52 <dc_rdfig> Added comment U3.

22:14:55 <zacker> hey there

22:20:05 * danbri revisits http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/ "Definition: The Semantic Web is the representation of data on the World Wide Web."

22:20:16 <danbri> wonder how xforms folk feel about that

22:20:28 * danbri quite impressed with xforms as 'data on the web'

22:21:12 <AnkhGone> "a representation" has less hubris about it maybe :)

22:22:10 <danbri> either that, or include xforms in the list of SW tech. Not sure which I prefer, probably the latter, ie. move to more inclusive notion of SW rather than "SW requires RDF/logic/etc" view.

22:22:23 <danbri> btw nice to see you here

22:22:47 * danbri urks, laptop at 8% power

22:23:10 <AnkhGone> thanks :)

22:23:12 <AnkhGone> uh oh

22:23:22 * AnkhGone hands danbri clockwork key to widn up laptop

22:23:22 <danbri> uhoh?

22:23:30 <danbri> ah yeah

22:32:19 <danbri> hmm "xforms... may add notion of variables"

22:32:29 * danbri missed context, but talk of $a etc.

22:32:51 <AnkhGone> possibly in constraint expressions?

22:33:12 <danbri> not sure, i really need to play w/ this stuff some more

22:33:19 <evlist> no, to change some stuff, such as the URL for the submit.

22:49:48 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

23:26:44 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

23:49:01 <earle> earle is now known as grault

23:56:30 <mdupont> mdupont is now known as md-777