Semantic Web Interest Group IRC Chat Logs for 2003-12-31

00:41:02 <setre> timbl: Hi, thanks for creating the www! :)

00:41:35 <timbl> Hey, you're welcome. With a bit of help from my friends ...

00:42:26 <Davey> Hehe

00:42:39 <Davey> so modest :D

01:04:39 <libby> libby is now known as danbri

01:11:21 <danbri> danbri is now known as libby

01:23:46 <Davey> Hey libby... uhm danbri... whomever you are :)

01:33:03 <libby> hey up

01:33:49 <niq> oook?

01:34:23 * eikeon waves

01:35:17 * mortenf raises a hand

01:40:29 * mattb nods

02:08:08 <danbri>http://chefmoz.org/

02:08:08 <dc_rdfig> A: http://chefmoz.org/ from danbri

02:08:13 <danbri> A:|ChefMoz

02:08:13 <dc_rdfig> Titled item A.

02:08:15 <eikeon> yummy

02:08:22 <danbri> A:"208238 restaurants - 26440 reviews - 49334 links to reviews - 0 editors"

02:08:23 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A1.

02:08:31 <danbri> A:0 editors? Anyone know status of this project?

02:08:32 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A2.

02:11:51 * DanC waves

02:12:05 <eikeon> howdy DanC

02:12:14 <danbri> hi there

02:12:24 * danbri tries to sign up as a chefmoz editor, goes to bed...

02:12:42 <danbri> long day tommorrow, gotta finish all my 2003 projects/work before clean slate new start etc next year ;)

02:13:03 * DanC visits http://www.bvsoccer.org/registration.html , having missed on-site registration

02:13:47 <sh1m> Bit late aint it lads?

02:14:27 <DanC> .time

02:14:27 <datum> Wed, 31 Dec 2003 02:14:27 GMT

02:14:32 <DanC> .time CST

02:14:32 <datum> Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:14:32 CST

02:14:43 <sh1m> hah, you were right the first time ;)

02:15:41 <kota> .time jst

02:15:41 <datum> Wed, 31 Dec 2003 11:15:41 JST

02:16:55 <sh1m> JST? Jakarta?

02:17:34 <DanC> after I put the kids to bed, I hope to noodle on (a) CivicDuty and Dean and all that, or (b) some quicken/RDF stuff (quacken), maybe setting up the John Doe public demo (c) some XHTML/RDF stuff, (d) some family tree stuff

02:17:55 <kota> japan :)

02:18:33 <DanC> hmm... do I have googlemark?

02:18:37 <DanC> .google CivicDuty

02:18:37 <datum> CivicDuty: http://dm93.org/z2001/CivicDuty

02:18:38 <sh1m> Aha, forgive my ignorance. I am still grumpy about being in not in Tokyo.

02:18:45 <DanC> indeed. :-)

02:19:04 <sh1m> s/in/ill/

02:51:03 <burtonator> burtonator is now known as GanDillmor

02:51:17 <GanDillmor> GanDillmor is now known as burtonator

03:02:26 <ericP> kota, where in japan are you? (i'm in fujisawa)

03:03:21 <kota> oh, no. I'm not in Japan now. I'm in Seattle, WA.

03:03:37 <kota> I grew up there.

03:23:38 <_deusx> _deusx is now known as deusx

04:14:02 <Arnia22> Arnia22 is now known as Arnia

04:14:42 <deusx> deusx is now known as _deusx

05:42:17 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

05:59:33 * DanC studies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election%2C_2004

06:05:45 <Skyline> sir timbl

06:05:54 <Skyline> =]

06:13:53 <DanC> "Howard Dean ... ranks first in total raised ($25.4 million...) ). However, even this performance pales to next to George W. Bush, who has so far raised $84.6 million for a primary campaign in which he has no challenger."

06:14:02 <DanC> wow!

06:14:33 <DanC> "While presidential campaigns have been traditionally financed by tapping wealthy, established political donors, Dean's funds have come largely in small donations over the Internet; the average overall donation size is just under $80."

06:18:25 <DanC> "Abortion is a deeply personal decision which ought to be made between the patient, the family and physician. It's none of the government's business." yes, well, then why does the government fund so many abortions? the abortion issue isn't about choice. it's about money. the abortion business is Big Money.

06:19:17 <karlcow> hmmm?

06:19:51 <karlcow> Abortion is the right of each woman.

06:20:13 <DanC> very well, but I'd rather not pay for it with my tax dollars.

06:20:29 <karlcow> ????

06:21:49 <DanC> I'd love to see abortion be a decision between the patient, the family, and the physician. But it's not. Parental consent is required to get your ears pierced, but not to get an abortion. Abortions are not done by doctors nor in hospitals. They're done in federally funded clinics.

06:22:48 <karlcow> because of the US political system and absence of health protection system.

06:23:14 <karlcow> Luckily enough, there are federal hospitals which provides aborption.

06:23:18 <karlcow> It costs a lot

06:23:32 <karlcow> and it will not be possible for many women to have it

06:23:41 <karlcow> It's called a society.

06:24:22 <DanC> "federal hospitals which provides aborption"? in the u.s.? name one.

06:24:43 <karlcow> If it doesn't exist. That's bad.

06:24:52 <teefal> personally, i'd rather everyone talk about issues that affect greater numbers of people

06:25:02 <teefal> and cause more misery

06:25:16 <teefal> abortion is talked about so much because it's a hot-button issue

06:25:27 <teefal> scares people into getting active

06:25:35 <teefal> (both sides)

06:25:40 <karlcow> only in US teefal.

06:25:51 <teefal> yes

06:25:54 <karlcow> We would not have this debate in France :)

06:26:10 <teefal> i'd rather be talking about aids in africa, or malnutrition

06:26:13 * DanC should perhaps take this to #dean

06:26:33 <karlcow> Abortion has been recognized for a long time and taken in charge by the gov for a long time after the women fighting for this right.

06:26:38 <DanC> I was asked by some folks here to say which of Dean's positions I disagree with. a while ago.

06:26:51 <karlcow> teefal: agreed on that too.

06:27:42 <teefal> i've written in the last month on the semweb helping solve social problems

06:28:05 <DanC> hmm... I don't feel very connected with Africa... I don't feel the same sense of CivicDuty that I do about educating myself for the U.S. presidential election.

06:28:26 <teefal>http://bigfractaltangle.com/archive/cat_saving_the_world.jsp

06:28:27 <dc_rdfig> B: http://bigfractaltangle.com/archive/cat_saving_the_world.jsp from teefal

06:29:11 <teefal> i just finished "Band of Brothers"... what an amazing piece of work.

06:29:19 * karlcow wished that US feels less connected with Irak too. Or all neo-colonialism projects.

06:29:32 <teefal> civic duty extends beyond our borders

06:30:09 <teefal> even if we're self-interested, it doesn't take much thought to realize that what's good for the world is good for the US

06:30:40 <teefal> everyone says aids in africa is a security issue (including current administration), but it's really not being talked about

06:34:27 <DanC> I can rationally see how civic duty should extend beyond our borders. But it remains the case that I don't feel much as much of a sense of duty to Africa.

06:34:50 <teefal> karl, read further... i correct "angela"

06:35:07 <DanC> I have never been there; don't really know what I could do to help... I suppose I know some people that have been there... I could talk with them about it.

06:35:41 <karlcow> DanC: Had you abortion?

06:35:54 <DanC> no, Karl, never been pregnant. ;-)

06:35:54 <karlcow> because it seems you have an idea about it... and not africa

06:36:31 <teefal> dan, you do what you can do... for myself, i'm talking about it. raising awareness is a start.

06:36:42 <DanC> but yes, I lived with Joe Pojman for a few years... (the one on the left in the photo on http://www.gartl.org/)

06:37:12 <DanC> er... lived with a friend of his, actually. was around the issue a lot.

06:39:17 <teefal> abortion & death penalty & gun control are tough to talk about in mixed company. I also think these issues are too hot to handle... everyone talking has entrenched opinions, so there's little chance of winning advocates to your side

06:39:42 <teefal> the more people talk, the stubborner they get

06:40:00 <teefal> (both sides)

06:41:17 <DanC> hmm... that seems cynical. I'd like to think people get to know each other by discussing their differences.

06:41:41 <teefal> in most areas, but these areas are trench warfare

06:41:51 <DanC> ooh! " Rider 8 of the General Appropriations Bill (HB 1) prohibits organizations that perform abortions from receiving state family planning funds. Such pro-abortion organizations as Planned Parenthood and the City of Austin will not get family planning funding unless they cease performing abortions." -- http://www.gartl.org/legislation_main.htm

06:42:35 <teefal> hey, dan, to change the subject.. i'm writing the last installment of my rdf intro

06:43:01 <DanC> oh?

06:43:06 * DanC wonders if he's met teefal

06:43:21 <teefal> if you had to say one thing that makes rdf stand out from other models.... what would it be

06:43:30 <teefal> i was at sanibel, but don't know

06:43:59 <teefal>http://bigfractaltangle.com/yarns/

06:43:59 <dc_rdfig> C: http://bigfractaltangle.com/yarns/ from teefal

06:44:05 <teefal> (writing part 5)

06:44:35 <teefal> i'm trying to capture the "why we need rdf when we have xml, etc" gist as simply as possible

06:45:27 * DanC wonders why the site wants to set a cookie

06:45:38 <teefal> my site?

06:45:39 <DanC> B:|the great divide

06:45:39 <dc_rdfig> Titled item B.

06:45:49 <DanC> yes, your site.

06:46:00 <teefal> stats tracking (opentracker)

06:46:00 <deltab> why do we have XML when we have numbers?

06:46:20 * DanC looks for a privacy policy...

06:47:00 <teefal> no formal privacy policy

06:47:02 <teefal> it's a blog

06:47:27 <DanC> "Dieter Wolf, author of the infamous Matrix poolside presentation"? Deiter Fensel, no?

06:47:55 <DanC> setting cookies without giving a privacy policy seems anti-social, to me.

06:48:16 <teefal> my sense was wolf wrote the slides... i talked with him the next day and he was making a course on the subject (philosophy/matrix)

06:48:22 * DanC hopes browsers learn not to do cookies without informed consent

06:48:25 <teefal> fensel read them

06:48:32 <DanC> ah

06:49:09 <teefal> what's a one-liner privacy policy that you'd be happy with

06:50:16 <DanC> good question... should be answered in/near http://www.w3.org/P3P/ ...

06:51:59 * DanC sees some relevant examples in http://www.w3.org/TR/p3pdeployment but can't reduce it to one line quickly

06:52:11 <DanC> I think there is a one line HTTP header you can add.

06:52:36 <teefal> is p3p the creative commons of privacy statements?

06:54:00 <DanC> uh... ok, yeah.

06:56:31 <teefal> how's this.... Privacy Statement: We use cookies to maintain session state and to gather in-house usage stats for this site only.

06:56:58 <teefal> We promise to keep all information collected at this website private.

06:57:52 * DanC browses an article on P3P ... http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/javascript/2002/10/04/p3p.html?page=2

06:58:18 <DanC> why do you need cookies to do usage stats?

06:58:53 <DanC> .google opentracker

06:58:53 <datum> opentracker: http://www.opentracker.net/

06:59:29 <DanC> er... in-house? the data are shared with opentracker, no?

06:59:40 <teefal>http://www.opentracker.net/pages/tracking-vs-log.jsp

06:59:40 <dc_rdfig> D: http://www.opentracker.net/pages/tracking-vs-log.jsp from teefal

07:00:03 <teefal> yes....you're right. we're testing opentracker as of two weeks ago, haven't signed up

07:00:21 <DanC> C:|Big Fractal Tangle: Tangle Yarns

07:00:21 <dc_rdfig> Titled item C.

07:00:24 <teefal> we've been using webtrends for years though, and use our own cookie for in house stats

07:01:10 <teefal> cookies help to determine returning visitors

07:01:39 <teefal> which is very useful, even if you don't know who they are... just that they're returning

07:02:26 <DanC> "very useful"? how so?

07:03:09 <teefal> plenty of reasons... helps determine effectiveness with regards to usability....

07:03:29 <teefal> content desirability

07:03:45 <teefal> we wrote a hundred page book on it, called "arrive without leaving"

07:03:50 <DanC> it's clear that log analysis is more crude than tracking with cookies, but does the difference really matter?

07:04:23 <DanC> "we"?

07:04:30 <teefal> my company

07:04:57 <teefal> yes, especially when a vast percentage of users are from "vienna, virginia" using rotating sets of the same IP numberfs

07:05:12 <teefal> i wouldn't say "crude", i'd say "pointless"

07:05:25 <DanC> tracking-vs-log doesn't convince me. So the numbers with cookies will be lower, closer to the number of actual people. So? take the numbers from the log and multiply by .7 or whatever floats your boat.

07:06:01 <DanC> why bother with IP addresses?

07:06:20 <teefal> again, to determine return visitors, unique visitors....

07:06:43 <teefal> with AOL, it's impossible to tell if that's 1 person using your site for 30 minutes or 100 people using it

07:06:46 <DanC> is "to determine return visitors" really the end? surely it's a means to an end.

07:07:43 <DanC> impossible? come on. I've seen astromers turn what looks like tv-snow into sharp pictures. With a large enough sample size, you can get almost any info you want out of the logs.

07:07:58 <teefal> in crafting the architecture, web design, and content of a website, the chief goal is to attract and retain visitors

07:08:38 <teefal> without cookies, how can you tell that 10 people that are using the same firewall (with the same IP on the outside) are actually 10 people, and not 1

07:08:50 <DanC> er... sounds like a limited view of website architecture... limited to advertising-supported sites.

07:09:42 <DanC> perhaps I can't tell if it's 1 or 10; either way, that's in the noise for any site that matters, no?

07:09:44 <teefal> no... not just advertising.... hell, it's all about message. Conveying your message, whether it's commercial in nature or not

07:10:10 <teefal> let's say my goal is to build a readership for a blog

07:10:34 <teefal> let's say i get 1000 visitors a day

07:10:38 <DanC> ok

07:11:11 <teefal> do you think there's a difference between 1000 separate people reading it a day, never to return

07:11:22 <teefal> versus 500 of them reading it once a week, over time?

07:12:04 <teefal> the first scenerio means i'm wasting my time

07:12:14 <DanC> well, clearly. you just told me there's a difference: in one case, it's 1000 different people, in the other case, 500.

07:12:37 <teefal> it's proof that there's no demand for my content

07:12:56 <DanC> ok, very well. you still haven't convinced me you can't tell the difference without cookies.

07:13:22 <teefal> look at a log file for the AOL IP addresses...

07:13:24 <DanC> there's referrer, user-agent, timing info, etc.

07:13:49 <teefal> they have a bank of them, and every AOL user goes through them

07:14:12 <teefal> you can easily get 10 AOL users using your site at the same time, using the same IP addresses

07:14:52 <DanC> following exactly the same path thru your site? i.e. with indistinguishable referrer trails?

07:15:31 <teefal> why not? what if my blog gets a mention at cnet or something

07:15:35 <teefal> everyone comes from the same place

07:15:49 <teefal> usually clicks the first couple of things they see

07:16:10 <teefal> if they all are using the same IP, there's no way to tell

07:16:41 <teefal> let's say I do a mass mailing... they all show up without referrer

07:16:42 <DanC> I doubt there's "no way to tell". statistical analysis can do amazing things.

07:16:57 <teefal> it can't do it if there's nothing there

07:17:15 <DanC> but there is something there.

07:17:32 <DanC> anyway... if you can get informed consent from all the people you track, more power to you.

07:17:58 <teefal> what about your side... what's the harm? are we still talking about double-click?

07:18:02 <DanC> but most browsers default to an unhealthy balance of risk between providers and consumers.

07:20:14 <DanC> I'm not sure what you mean about double-click... probably, yes...

07:20:58 <DanC> ... the harm is that some well-meaning but negligent provider collects a whole bunch of, say, addresses of 7 year old kids, and some cracker steals them.

07:21:12 <teefal> what bad could come from using a website with cookies using firebird with "for originating website only"

07:22:27 <teefal> here's a log line...

07:23:00 <teefal> 123.123.123.123 - - [30/Dec/2003:22:48:52 -0800] "GET /archive/2003/12/16.jsp HTTP/1.1" 200 20300 "http://bigfractaltangle.com/archive/cat_saving_the_world.jsp" "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031024 Galeon/1.3.11a (Debian package 1.3.11a-1)" "-"

07:23:20 <teefal> how can that be used against someone, particularly if they have "for originating website only" checked in mozilla

07:24:26 <teefal> wait, sorry... add a cookie to that

07:24:27 <DanC> er... well, W3C helped authorities build a case against a murderer with log lines like that, but that's only tenuously related...

07:24:27 <teefal> JSESSIONID=abgLgWLS-2e6

07:25:52 <DanC> in this particular case, the balance of risk is probably OK; but it's worth you adding a P3P HTTP header to say that you're doing benign stuff with your cookies, so that browsers can default to prompting users about any Set-Cookie headers that aren't accompanied by P3P policies.

07:26:22 <DanC> (ala IE6, or so I gather from http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/javascript/2002/10/04/p3p.html?page=2)

07:26:29 <dajobe>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3357073.stm

07:26:29 <dc_rdfig> E: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3357073.stm from dajobe

07:26:38 <dajobe> E:|Web's inventor gets a knighthood

07:26:38 <dc_rdfig> Titled item E.

07:26:43 <dajobe> E:congrats timbl

07:26:43 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E1.

07:26:57 <teefal> sir timbl

07:27:26 <teefal> "Sir Tim says his invention was 'just another program'"

07:28:30 <teefal> danc, i'll look into p3p in the next week. I hadn't heard of it till this chat

07:29:09 <DanC> clearly the P3P web site needs cookies to get its message out better ;-)

07:29:22 <teefal> truth is, i make websites for a living and you're the most privacy minded person i've run across

07:29:56 <teefal> i heard some grumblings about double click a few years back, and i have to deal with the usual corporate boiler plate privacy policy or two

07:30:12 <teefal> but i haven't talked to someone actually worried about cookies in a long time

07:30:14 <dajobe> A:*

07:30:14 <dajobe> RELATED INTERNET LINKS: ...* [Semantic Web roadmap|http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Semantic.html]

07:30:14 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A3.

07:30:17 <dajobe> A:RELATED INTERNET LINKS: ...* [Semantic Web roadmap|http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Semantic.html]

07:30:17 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A4.

07:30:19 <DanC> I tend to be a few standard deviations outside the norm on many things, yes... but I'm far from the most privacy-minded person *I* know!

07:30:54 * dajobe repairs

07:31:12 <teefal> if you run across any documented cases (other than double click) of cookie abuse, let me know. I'm interested

07:31:42 <dajobe> at least in all of EUrope, if you use cookies, by law you'll need a privacy policy

07:32:19 <DanC> btw... teefal, speaking of fractal stuff and the web... I infer that you've read timbl's http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Fractal.html ; am I wrong?

07:32:25 <teefal> do you have any links to boilerplate text that covers it? (this is what i meant earlier about the 'creative commons' of privacy)

07:32:59 <teefal> nope... good link.

07:33:06 <DanC> we have a set of 20 or so places that use P3P in production...

07:33:28 <teefal> i was looking for some boilerplate legal text

07:33:35 <dajobe> lol

07:34:01 <teefal> creative commons makes it very easy... should be as easy for p3p/privacy policies

07:34:21 <teefal> okay, this just got put on my list of things to write about

07:34:22 <DanC> yes, well, one of the 20 is likely to be like your site... ah... there are many more now... not sure that helps when you want to monkey-see-monkey-do... http://www.w3.org/P3P/compliant_sites

07:35:37 <teefal> amazing this has been around as long and i haven't heard of it

07:36:04 <DanC> ugh... I picked one from that list and checked it with the validator and it failed.

07:36:23 <teefal> there's a lot of smart, informed, tech-savvy people who look at http://kensall.com/big-picture/bigpix22.html and feel small

07:36:26 <DanC> the page lies. It should say something like "these are sites whose operators wrote to tell use they're using P3P; we don't vouch for them"

07:37:33 <DanC> well, I don't grok all those buzzwords, but I don't feel small about it.

07:38:30 <teefal> it's overwhelming none-the-less.... to say, "hey guys, adopt these standards" ... it's daunting

07:38:53 <DanC> as long as I can pick them up when I need them, I kinda feel OK. I wanted to grok XMI and I was pretty much stumped. All roads led to dead-trees books. I couldn't find a nice <50 page thingy to read.

07:39:17 <DanC> er... who in their right mind is saying to adopt *all* those standards?

07:39:58 <teefal> my "tangle yarns" column is intended be easily digestable, compelling, cases for using new semweb technologies with demonstrable real-world results

07:40:05 <teefal> just started it with the rdf intro

07:40:41 <teefal> again, trying to write the fifth and last part now

07:40:56 <DanC> I had hopes that the W3C RDF primer would be digestable. Other people had different ideas. sigh.

07:41:12 <teefal> it's good.

07:41:14 <teefal> really.

07:41:20 <teefal> the jena intro is good too.

07:41:49 <teefal> i'm writing to the crowd that hasn't commited to taking the time to read those

07:41:50 <DanC> glad to hear the primer helps.

07:42:12 <DanC> I was hoping to aim the RDF primer at folks with not a lot of time. 10 pages or so.

07:42:34 <teefal> i'd love to see stats on what people read to adopt technologies

07:43:10 <teefal> specs, articles, tutorials, dead-tree books, seminars

07:43:23 <DanC> don't forget slurp-and-burp; i.e. view source

07:43:37 <teefal> monkey-see-monkey-do

07:43:43 <DanC> exactly

07:43:56 <teefal> believe me, i understand

07:44:05 <teefal> tech writing for the masses is very hard

07:44:08 <DanC> I'm pretty happy with the primer timbl started http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/Primer and the tutorial we built around it

07:44:34 <teefal> ah, n3

07:44:40 <DanC> tech writing for the masses is an oxymoron, no?

07:44:47 <teefal> :)

07:45:10 <teefal> put that primer on my link

07:45:19 <teefal> (list)

07:45:45 <DanC> these days, I'm convinced you need test cases and quick-start tutorials. ok, yes, you need a spec/design-doc in there to convince yourself that you're sane, but you shouldn't expect many people to read it.

07:46:03 <teefal> right

07:46:21 <teefal> sometimes i think it's just helping "me" to write it

07:46:24 <teefal> specs

07:46:45 <teefal> i wrote 3 chapters in an unleashed book a while back

07:46:59 <teefal> one chapter was "introduction to java" ... i was given 25 pages

07:47:05 <teefal> i had to teach the language in 25 pages

07:47:19 <teefal> that was incredible... like pulling teeth

07:48:00 <teefal> had to assume a non-OO, non-structured programming background

07:48:09 <teefal> LotusScript maybe

07:48:15 <DanC> I really enjoyed reading the java language spec. Guy Steele has mastered the art.

07:49:08 <teefal> yes. there's quite something to picking exactly the helpful thing and no more

07:49:44 <teefal> when righting to people that are scared of specs though, the tough part is knowing where to start, and being careful not to assume anything "not in evidence"

07:49:55 <DanC> what on earth would you say in 25 pages about java to somebody with no OO/structured background? You could sell the language, maybe, but not _teach_ it.

07:50:17 <teefal> you're right.

07:50:44 <teefal> i started by admitting the pointlessness and referring them to the officially sanctioned macmillan alternative

07:51:23 <teefal> nevertheless, i wrote about operater precedence and polymorphism and reference vs value passing, etc.

07:51:31 <teefal> all the while trying to keep things light

07:51:40 <DanC> yougottabekidding!

07:51:55 <teefal> i vowed never to write another book again, and have kept true to my promise since

07:52:38 <teefal> i should get permission to put a pdf of that somewhere on the web...it's not bad

07:52:42 <DanC> I've heard a sufficient number of book-writing horror stories that I haven't ventured past editing a collection of essays, myself.

07:53:31 <teefal> my wife made a funny comment yesterday... watching me write the "rdf intro", she said that I was doing what I said I would never do again

07:53:52 <teefal> i told it was much easier in one/two page bites

07:54:37 <teefal> btw, if you spot anything in there that's wrong (very possible), let me know... i was going to post an announce when i finished the fifth

07:55:36 <dajobe> i've only got niggles; like why use 2 types of XML quoting in part4: rdf:about="http://zombo.com" dc:subject='everything'

07:55:49 <dajobe> and " The second says that tim's favorite website is the resource zombo.com"

07:55:52 <teefal> i've gotten some very good response from the "angela talk" series.... seems a lot of people are asking the same questions

07:55:59 <dajobe> refering to the URI #tim

07:56:47 <teefal> i'll change

07:56:57 <teefal> i have chronic single/double quote sickness

07:57:13 <teefal> based upon using either/or when doing JSP scripting

07:57:27 <teefal> i'm trying to settle on single quotes all the time for attributes

07:57:37 <teefal> but my double days keep sneaking back

07:57:55 <dajobe> if you could (and this isn't likely possible), stick to one style of rdf/xml; I'd say junk property attributes but given the thread of the stories, you proabbly need to keep them

07:58:23 <teefal> i could put a stronger case for the subtag approach

07:58:44 <dajobe> it's complete (good) and regular (good) but verbose (bad)

07:58:45 <teefal> i simply say it's a matter of preference, but stopped short of saying other reasons for the latter

07:59:14 <teefal> howabout the browser friendly part... is that still a concern?

07:59:20 <dajobe> and later on if you discover you need languages or datatypes, you win too

07:59:41 <dajobe> it has turned out that many years later, the answer is pretty much no

08:00:00 <teefal> i haven't tested myself yet

08:00:21 <teefal> is there a chart somewhere comparing browsers and rdf inclusion techniques?

08:00:25 <dajobe> not a concern meaning, people do it other ways

08:00:34 <dajobe> no

08:00:53 <teefal> what's your preference?

08:00:59 <dajobe> all the methods have problems

08:01:13 <dajobe> its a special case of the issue of embedding any XML in HTML

08:01:54 <dajobe> there's a whole mailing list looking at this

08:01:55 <teefal> i guess file inclusion is safest? not as easy though for snoops like me

08:02:20 <dajobe> some of the current requirements http://www.w3.org/2003/03/rdf-in-xml.html

08:02:51 <dajobe> <link> is the safest, i.e. reference not inclusion

08:03:06 <dajobe> newer references http://esw.w3.org/topic/EmbeddingRDFinHTML

08:03:37 <teefal> someone needs to do a browser grid on this

08:03:59 <dajobe> please, no

08:04:07 <teefal> why?

08:04:35 <dajobe> browser apartheid sucks

08:04:51 <teefal> more clearly, showing support/problems with different approachs on different browsers

08:05:03 <teefal> ah.... but i have to get it to work :)

08:05:14 <teefal> i know ... it's not an easy problem

08:05:55 <teefal> perhaps such a grid would apply pressure for browsers to conform to standards (yes, it's late and i'm in fantasy land :)

08:06:04 <dajobe> it's early here

08:06:24 * monkeyiq wonders how he can ever get back to fantasy land :)

08:06:50 <teefal> so, to help my finish part 5, what would you say is the chief benefit to RDF over other models... I'm I warm with my posts?

08:07:24 <teefal> "I'm I" = "am i"

08:08:58 <dajobe> it makes it easy to make a web (loose collaboration, no pre-cordination, links can break, anyone can link, etc.) for describing things (terms are on the web, properties, classes too). call it a Semantic Web ;)

08:09:41 <teefal> tradeoffs? efficiency?

08:10:10 <teefal> i'm writing about the clumsiness and inefficiency of hierarchical xml

08:10:47 <monkeyiq> is there a standard that JpegRDF follows for where in jpegs it is storing its RDF?

08:12:08 <dajobe> if you want to compare with xml, that's a different thing

08:12:12 <dajobe> in summary - xml is not webby

08:12:40 <teefal> yes. it's not all of the things you mentioned.

08:12:51 <dajobe> I've written about this before http://ilrt.org/people/cmdjb/talks/xmleurope2002/print.html and http://ilrt.org/people/cmdjb/talks/xmleurope2002/slide17.html

08:13:30 <monkeyqi> logger: pointer

08:13:30 <monkeyqi> See http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2003-12-31#T08-13-30

08:13:53 <dajobe> monkeyiq: you mean the jpeg standard for metadata; yes, there is one for that

08:14:42 <monkeyqi> dajobe: ah ok. I recently added EXIF support to libferris and spotted jpegrdf at the same time.

08:15:00 <monkeyqi> dajobe: so, now I want to strip out RDF from jpeg and present it in the same way as the EXIF info.

08:16:14 <dajobe> refs http://www.w3.org/TR/photo-rdf/ but there's a newer page somewhere

08:16:46 <dajobe> I'm not sure how to do that but it's been done by several people here - Bert (above), mortenf, norm walsh

08:16:56 <monkeyqi> thanks, I've been RTFMing trying to find out more apart from "...RDF metadata stored in the comment section of JPEG images" from the jpegrdf page

08:17:32 <dajobe> seems norm uses JpegRDF

08:19:21 <monkeyqi> hmm, might add in XMP support at the same time, once I force the adobe src code to compile acceptably under linux.

08:19:27 <monkeyqi> dajobe: thanks for the link.

08:19:46 <dajobe> there was work on the rdfpic app at least this year I think

08:20:56 <dajobe> XMP, JPEG and PNG rdf-extraction are on my rdf parser todo list

08:21:29 <monkeyqi> dajobe: they have been on mine for a while. I just added the EXIF support in the last few days.

08:21:43 <monkeyqi> dajobe: now I naturally want to get at RDF from jpegs aswell ;)

08:22:03 <dajobe> yeah, but I can wrap up embedded rdf/xml parsing in PNG|JPG|XMP|... to just give you triples when you point the parser at the file

08:22:48 <monkeyqi> dajobe: that's much the same as what I can do, either give you native "EA" style access or export them as RDF/XML for you

08:23:20 <monkeyqi> dajobe: the main gain of the native interface is that I can use it from 'ls' and file managers aswell.

08:29:37 <DanC> E:also [in W3C news archive|http://www.w3.org/News/2003#item213]

08:29:37 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E3.

08:31:59 <DanC> E:*"This is an honor which applies to the whole Web development community, and to the inventors and developers of the Internet, whose work made the Web possible, " stated Berners-Lee. "I accept this as an endorsement of the spirit of the Web; of building it in a decentralized way; of making best efforts to keep it open and fair; and of ensuring its fundamental technologies are available to all for broad use and innovation, and without ha

08:31:59 <DanC> ving to pay licensing fees."*

08:32:00 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E4.

08:33:12 <dajobe> heh, it's a Royalty Free Knighthood :)

08:33:15 <DanC> E4:*"This is an honor which applies to the whole Web development community, and to the inventors and developers of the Internet, whose work made the Web possible, " stated Berners-Lee. *

08:33:15 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment E4.

08:33:43 <DanC> E:*"I accept this as an endorsement of the spirit of the Web; of building it in a decentralized way; of making best efforts to keep it open and fair; and of ensuring its fundamental technologies are available to all for broad use and innovation, and without having to pay licensing fees."*

08:33:44 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E5.

08:35:10 <teefal> i'm surprised no mention of his parents

08:35:20 <teefal> in bbc

08:35:57 <teefal> that part interests me

08:41:43 <teefal> there's a great quote in something i read a long time ago, by an original programmer of the first (?) programmable computer in manchester (?), who had to walk up and down stairs to debug using the machine...

08:42:01 <teefal> something like, "It was then i realized I'd be spending the rest of my life fixing my own mistakes."

08:42:44 <teefal> then the author says that apparently people didn't think software would be hard before they started making some

10:08:09 * danbri wanders past, catches up

10:08:26 <danbri> timbl++

10:30:48 <danbri> dc_rdfig:view

10:30:48 <dc_rdfig> A: ChefMoz (http://chefmoz.org/)

10:30:49 <dc_rdfig> B: the great divide (http://bigfractaltangle.com/archive/cat_saving_the_world.jsp)

10:30:50 <dc_rdfig> C: Big Fractal Tangle: Tangle Yarns (http://bigfractaltangle.com/yarns/)

10:30:51 <dc_rdfig> D: http://www.opentracker.net/pages/tracking-vs-log.jsp

10:30:52 <dc_rdfig> E: Web's inventor gets a knighthood (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3357073.stm)

10:31:21 <danbri> E:See also [http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/content_objectid=13769813_method=full_siteid=50143_headline=-SIR%2DFING%2DTHE%2DNET-name_page.html|Sir-fing The Net] in the Mirror.

10:31:21 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E7.

10:33:49 <danbri> E:[...]"So many things could have gone wrong, so we spent all our time explaining how it could work, and persuading people it would work." (timbl a/c to the Mirror)

10:33:49 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E8.

10:49:49 <danbri>http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/12/05/hln.hot.buzz.foaf.networks/

10:49:49 <dc_rdfig> F: http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/12/05/hln.hot.buzz.foaf.networks/ from danbri

10:50:15 <danbri> F:|You've got a friend ... of a friend ... of a friend ..., by Christine Boese (CNN)

10:50:15 <dc_rdfig> Titled item F.

10:51:45 <danbri> F:A short piece on 'social networks' software, trends etc. It seems to use 'FOAF' partly as a generic term for real human networks, partially as a technical term. I guess this is inevitable, the name choice pretty much invites this.

10:51:45 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F1.

10:54:57 <danbri> F:This is from a column in the Entertainment section, of all places. Touches on the spam problem too.

10:54:57 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F2.

10:57:17 <danbri> F:In the [http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/ FOAF spec] this aspect of the name does get mentioned, I'm happy to say:

10:57:17 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F3.

10:57:22 <danbri> F:"The name was chosen to reflect our concern with social networks and the Web, urban myths, trust and connections. Other uses of the name continue, notably in the documentation and investigation of Urban Legends (eg. see the alt.folklore.urban archive or snopes.com), and other FOAF stories."

10:57:22 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F4.

10:57:38 <danbri> F:"Our use of the name 'FOAF' for a Web vocabulary and document format is intended to complement, rather than replace, these prior uses. FOAF documents describe the characteristics and relationships amongst friends of friends, and their friends, and the stories they tell."

10:57:39 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F5.

10:58:04 <danbri> F:According to the CNN piece, "While many young people and coastal hipsters are swarming to the saucy social scene at Friendster, the idea of FOAF networks is still hashing itself out in geekland. Some techies want to make FOAF code free and standard across Web sites, out of the control of various commercial vendors."

10:58:04 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F6.

10:59:10 <danbri> F:When they write... "FOAF software tools such as Friendster, Tribe, Tickle, Ryze, LinkedIn and others help to make social networks visible and explicit." they are crediting too much to FOAF-the-technology-and-or-project, but its an interesting trend.

10:59:10 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F7.

11:00:38 <danbri> F3:In the [http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/|FOAF spec] this aspect of the name does get mentioned, I'm happy to say:

11:00:38 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment F3.

11:04:25 <teefal> danbri, i notice you registered foafster.com.... are you planning to use it for some kind of repository?

11:05:18 <danbri> The original intent (pre-rise-of-Friendster) was to do a p2p search thing where you share stuff with friends only...

11:05:44 <danbri> the name is somewhat overloaded currently, am mulling best use, but will hopefully be user facing apps stuff

11:05:46 <teefal> so you thought of foafster before there was friendster?

11:06:22 <danbri> I forget when registered, not so long ago, but foaf project certainly pre-dates friendster...

11:06:33 <danbri> sixdegrees.com were the big deal back then.

11:06:40 <danbri> since gone bust and sold on their domain name

11:08:05 <teefal> fyi, i used foaf in my angela talks as an example... will also write up a piece about it, probably this week

11:08:21 <danbri> what is angela?

11:08:30 <danbri> I saw a bunch of links posted yesterday, haven't followed them up yet

11:08:57 <teefal> it's a series of five posts on my blog ... http://bigfractaltangle.com/angela/

11:09:18 <teefal> a dialog between me and a fake investor, wanting to know if she should pony up big bucks for this semantic web thing

11:09:30 <teefal> i used foaf to show her some examples

11:11:08 <danbri> ah cool, i'll take a look (must dash now though)

11:11:57 <danbri> re http://www.shirky.com/writings/semantic_syllogism.html i'm dissapointed shirky doesn't seem to have responded at all yet. it was very hit-and-run...

11:13:31 <teefal> yes... i really don't get the "all markup has to be complete, consistent, and truthful" vibe I've been getting from various sources

11:14:02 <danbri> quick skim, http://bigfractaltangle.com/angela/ looks great :)

11:14:34 <danbri> I might try to give him a call in the new year, see if his view has changed...

11:15:04 <teefal> i'd send him a series of prolog statements

11:15:14 <teefal> to defend our views

11:15:20 <danbri> :)

11:15:34 <teefal> his anti-AI thing was also strange

11:17:23 <teefal> my shirky response: http://bigfractaltangle.com/archive/2003/11/30.jsp

11:17:53 <teefal> down side is that so many people linked to his article that it's now the #5 item on a google search for "semantic web"

11:18:46 <teefal> guess that breaks googles intent... links are supposed to convey a sense of validation.... in this case, nearly every link's intent was the opposite

11:19:19 <teefal> too bad we can't simply include a "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" in our <a href>

12:43:07 <laszlo> teefal, probably could...but wouldn't you want more levels of "respect."

12:45:09 <teefal> more than smiley faces and frowny faces? "nice tune but can't dance to it"

12:45:27 <teefal> i just wish there was a way to qualify the link

12:46:29 <teefal> as potentially unfair as it is, the slashdot karma thing works pretty well

12:47:09 <teefal> maybe there needs to be a karma version of google

12:47:39 <teefal> only people that earn respect can dole out respect

12:50:34 <teefal> in sanibel, i heard a presentation along these lines

12:50:42 <teefal> i jokingly called it "the semantic slashdot"

12:51:03 <teefal> more on their moderation system: http://slashdot.org/faq/com-mod.shtml

12:51:51 <teefal> start at "how did the moderation system develop"

12:56:16 <laszlo> while certains things about slashdot are impressive, something much more universal is needed.

12:57:27 <[GNU]> laszlo: universal in the aspect of "not only technology" and "not only us-language" ?

12:57:55 <teefal> the question, as always, is who do you trust to say who to trust

12:58:19 <laszlo> [GNU]: yes, that is an important facet. keywords for success: simple, fair, fun, access

12:59:01 <[GNU]> teefal: the trust is some subgroup oriented function, no global function

13:15:39 <libby> monkeyiq, if you read the logs...

13:15:47 <libby>http://nwalsh.com/java/jpegrdf/

13:15:48 <dc_rdfig> G: http://nwalsh.com/java/jpegrdf/ from libby

13:16:02 <libby> G:|Norm Walsh's jpegrdf

13:16:02 <dc_rdfig> Titled item G.

13:16:19 <libby> G:"Jpegrdf reads and manipulates RDF metadata stored in the comment section of JPEG images. It can extract, query, and augment the data."

13:16:19 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G1.

13:16:24 <libby> myabe useful?

13:19:07 <lilo> [Global Notice] Hi all. Congratulations to those on the 2004 side of the Dateline. You're all invited to #newyears to follow our journey into the new year!

13:25:20 <dajobe> whoa

13:25:44 <dajobe> just returned from the paper shop to find tim's picture on the front of the Independent

13:25:47 <dajobe> it's the main story

13:50:11 <_deusx> _deusx is now known as deusx

13:57:36 <deusx> deusx is now known as _deusx

13:58:14 <_deusx> _deusx is now known as deusx

15:14:18 <iwaiAway> iwaiAway is now known as iwaim

15:29:15 <kota> .date jst

15:29:23 <kota> ah oh :(

15:29:26 <kota> .time jst

15:29:27 <datum> Thu, 01 Jan 2004 00:29:27 JST

15:34:01 <nmg> timbl: congratulations on the knighthood...

15:41:31 <dajobe> hi nick

15:41:37 <dajobe>http://www.redland.opensource.ac.uk/raptor/

15:41:37 <dc_rdfig> H: http://www.redland.opensource.ac.uk/raptor/ from dajobe

15:41:45 <dajobe> H:|Raptor 1.1.0 released with N-Triples Plus

15:41:45 <dc_rdfig> Titled item H.

15:43:51 <nmg> hi dajobe

15:47:36 <Morbus> n-triples plus?

15:47:57 <Morbus> ne'ermind.

15:47:58 <dajobe-lap> follow the link

16:10:08 <laszlo>http://elpaso.ezoshosting.com/~isshoadmin/mblog/archives/000079.html

16:10:09 <dc_rdfig> I: http://elpaso.ezoshosting.com/~isshoadmin/mblog/archives/000079.html from laszlo

16:10:47 <laszlo> I:|we enter the New Year quickly over here

16:10:47 <dc_rdfig> Titled item I.

17:08:03 <danbri> 'here' being japan?

17:10:22 <laszlo> danbri: yes.

17:13:58 <lilo> hi all

17:14:11 <libby> heya lilo

17:14:38 <lilo> hi libby....hmmm, I'm trying to do RSS 1.0, and we're in "quick, get it running!" mode, and I had a question :)

17:14:45 <lilo> what is rdf:about supposed to provide?

17:15:19 <libby> the link of the feed item - a unique link I think. same as <link>

17:15:28 * libby checks the spec

17:15:41 <lilo> hmmm....feedvalidator.org seems to think it's required

17:15:51 <libby> yep I think it is

17:15:56 <lilo> but if it's recapitulating the contents of <link>, I'm confused 8)

17:16:18 <libby> I think it was some sort of compromise between rdf-heads and xml-heads

17:16:32 <lilo> can you summarize for someone who is kind of at sea? :)

17:16:37 <libby> rdf:about is the rdf construct for talking about a thing with a url like a news item

17:16:53 <lilo> hmmmm

17:17:02 <libby> <link> was possibly deemed easier to parse. I think you need boty, but I'll just check...

17:17:04 <lilo> what is it supposed to uh, *say* about the thing with a url

17:17:14 <libby> (while since I did this stuff - anyone else know more...?)

17:17:15 * lilo 's eyes cross a little

17:17:16 <lilo> hehe

17:17:21 <lilo> appreciate your taking the time

17:17:23 <dajobe> you haven't got the saying bit yet

17:17:30 <dajobe> first, make a url for each news item

17:17:41 <dajobe> second, put it in the rdf:about="URLHERE" of the item

17:17:50 <dajobe> third, also put it in the <link>URLHERE</link> inside

17:18:01 <lilo> so the same information in both places?

17:18:04 <dajobe> it's easier to see this in an example feed

17:18:08 <lilo> what is the semantics of that?

17:18:12 <dajobe> that's the compromise, don't worry about it

17:18:32 <lilo> ah 8)

17:18:43 * lilo has a developer tearing his hair out and was hoping to clarify 8)

17:19:47 <dajobe> here's an rss1.0 feed for example http://www.w3.org/2000/08/w3c-synd/home.rss

17:19:56 <dajobe> view source or whatever

17:20:02 <lilo> yah

17:20:06 <dajobe> or try my rss1.0 viewer/validator http://www.redland.opensource.ac.uk/rss/

17:20:12 <libby> http://purl.org/rss/1.0/spec is quite a good spec but it doesn;t explain why both needed

17:20:16 <lilo> didn't the standard say that .rss wasn't necessary?

17:20:23 <dajobe> the url name's not important

17:20:25 <lilo> is it just a preference thing?

17:20:39 <lilo> (I'm just hoping to understand as much of the logic as I can)

17:20:50 <dajobe> if you want to do the autodiscovery, that's done with <link>

17:20:53 <dajobe> ... in the html

17:21:31 * lilo apologizes for being extremely ignorant of this whole spectrum of specifications 8)

17:21:37 <lilo> autodiscovery?

17:21:57 <dajobe> so blogging tools can go from webpage to rss feed automagically

17:22:11 <dajobe> optional, don't worry about it. look it up later. It's for the content (html) side

17:22:13 <libby> I don;t think which suffix .rss .xml .rdf matters. mime-type is application/xml

17:22:30 <lilo> apparently my galeon formats .rss really nicely

17:22:38 <lilo> .rdf seems unformatted

17:22:39 <lilo> interesting

17:22:47 <dajobe> the above url uses a client-side style sheet

17:22:48 <lilo> you think anybody will have a *problem* with .rss?

17:22:51 <lilo> ahhhh

17:22:52 <libby> .rdf is recommended, but not compulsory

17:22:58 <lilo> kay

17:23:05 <dajobe> the mime type would be application/rdf+xml for rdf

17:23:09 <libby> should be ok, I think, re .rss

17:23:23 * libby was lookign at the rss 1.0 spec - it says application/xml

17:23:45 <libby> oh, ah: "The RDF (or preferably RSS) mime-type should be used once it has been registered."

17:23:49 <lilo> hopefully that will work

17:24:00 <dajobe> well, we're still registering it

17:24:07 <lilo> ah

17:24:36 <lilo> so to clarify, it should be application/xml until application/rdf+xml is registered?

17:24:39 <lilo> then the latter?

17:24:48 <dajobe> I'd do the latter, but then I edit the rdf/xm spec.

17:25:53 * lilo nods

17:26:04 <lilo> I'm a civilian, I'll just try to do it by the book

17:26:08 * lilo grins

17:26:28 <lilo> this is cool, I'm having fun

17:26:42 <lilo> the guy doing the server side is tearing his hair out though :)

17:26:54 <lilo> we keep coming up with "one last fix" 8)

17:30:06 <libby> heh

18:30:02 <iwaim> iwaim is now known as iwaiAway

18:33:48 <Geert> Are the people awake who spoke with lilo?

18:42:34 * libby is, ish

18:44:26 <Geert> he value specified must adhere to the W3C Date and Time Format, which is a profile of ISO 8601.

18:44:26 <Geert> An example of a valid W3DTF Date: 2002-10-02T10:00:00-05:00

18:44:38 <Geert> And in the W3C Date and Time Format howto I read this

18:44:51 <Geert> This profile defines two ways of handling time zone offsets:

18:44:51 <Geert> 1. Times are expressed in UTC (Coordinated Universal Time), with a special UTC designator ("Z").

18:44:51 <Geert> 2. Times are expressed in local time, together with a time zone offset in hours and minutes. A time zone offset of "+hh:mm" indicates that the date/time uses a local time zone which is "hh" hours and "mm" minutes ahead of UTC. A time zone offset of "-hh:mm" indicates that the date/time uses a local time zone which is "hh" hours and "mm" minutes behind UTC.

18:44:51 <Geert> A standard referencing this profile should permit one or both of these ways of handling time zone offsets.

18:44:53 <Geert> Examples

18:44:55 <Geert> 1994-11-05T08:15:30-05:00 corresponds to November 5, 1994, 8:15:30 am, US Eastern Standard Time.

18:44:57 <Geert> 1994-11-05T13:15:30Z corresponds to the same instant.

18:45:04 <Geert> And I use <dc:date>2003-11-31T17:10:31Z</dc:date>

18:45:09 <Geert> wich should be valid...

18:45:13 <libby> ok

18:45:34 <LotR> boy. the network could really use a pastebot

18:45:43 <libby> so what's up?

18:46:09 <Geert>http://feedvalidator.org/check?url=http%3A%2F%2Frss.freenode.net%2Ftest.rdf

18:46:10 <dc_rdfig> J: http://feedvalidator.org/check?url=http%3A%2F%2Frss.freenode.net%2Ftest.rdf from Geert

18:46:18 <Geert> Take a look at that

18:47:17 <libby> odd

18:47:26 <Geert> So, what now..

18:47:38 <libby> did you try without the Z?

18:47:40 <dajobe-lap> the validator is wrong, you are right

18:47:45 <libby> it maybe that it's a bug

18:48:02 <libby> in the validator

18:48:19 <libby> I wouldnt worry too much

18:49:21 <dajobe-lap> I assume you are still fixing things, since you are missing <items> from teh doc

18:49:27 <Geert> So we are okay now?

18:49:34 <Geert> And comments/suggestions?

18:49:39 <libby> J:|feed validator results - possible bug with dc:date?

18:49:39 <dc_rdfig> Titled item J.

18:50:21 <libby> yeah, you missed a bit Geert

18:50:24 <dajobe-lap> J:try with [http://www.redland.opensource.ac.uk/rss?uri=http%3A%2F%2Frss.freenode.net%2Ftest.rdf&Go=Go&box=no|my validator]

18:50:24 <dc_rdfig> Added comment J1.

18:50:54 <Geert> libby: What?

18:51:23 <Geert> Channel items Missing. <items> is a required element of <channel>

18:51:25 <Geert> Mzzz

18:51:31 <libby> view source in http://www.w3.org/2000/08/w3c-synd/home.rss (as dave recommended earlier).

18:51:33 <libby> yeah

18:51:53 <libby> it's just like a little contents list of the items in teh channel

18:52:12 <Geert> ah ic

18:52:18 <libby> you need all the stuff in <items>, seq and everything

18:52:30 <Geert> Give me a couple if minutes to recode that

19:09:28 <Geert> There

19:09:32 <Geert> all fine now

19:09:33 <Geert> I think

19:10:25 <Geert> *poke* libby

19:11:37 <dajobe> looks good to me

19:11:46 <Geert> great

19:12:25 <libby> I don;t see any problems :)

19:12:31 <dajobe> you should have the same url in the <link> and the rdf:about; I think. You don't for the <channel>

19:12:39 <dajobe> hmm, you took the file away before I could re-check

19:12:48 <Geert> indeed :P

19:12:52 <Geert> Sorry :)

19:13:03 <dajobe> well, you've got the template sorted

19:13:52 <libby> hm, not sure re the channel and link etc

19:14:39 <libby> no, they don;t have to be the same in teh channel

19:15:02 <dajobe> oh ok. but in the <item>s they do.

19:15:11 <libby> right, I think so

19:21:13 <Geert>http://rss.freenode.net/general.rdf

19:21:13 <dc_rdfig> K: http://rss.freenode.net/general.rdf from Geert

19:21:15 <Geert> take that

19:22:50 <Geert> *poke* dajobe

19:24:40 <dajobe> ok

19:25:42 <dajobe> Geert: looks fine

19:26:11 <Geert> YES, finally :P

19:27:52 <Geert> Thanks for the help by the way

19:28:20 <dajobe-lap> np

21:26:40 <deusx> deusx is now known as _deusx

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