Semantic Web Interest Group IRC Chat Logs for 2004-02-02

00:09:59 <QArl> QArl is now known as karlcow

03:44:49 <DanC> did a bunch of disk admin lately...

03:45:04 <DanC> I want a pie chart for each of my disks, showing partitioning and usage

04:00:06 * monkeyiq imagines df -h and a little script to spit out svg not being that hard.

04:00:29 <monkeyiq> though for me pies of whole disks are somewhat redundant most of the time.

04:18:20 <ChanServ> [#rdfig] This channel is logged and blogged: http://logicerror.com/rdfIRCWelcome

04:40:05 * eikeon surfs orkut for the first time... experiencing the same thing.

04:42:42 * DanC gets 1st happy output from "df -h and a little script to spit out svg"

04:43:10 <DanC> next steps: use /proc/partitions and /proc/lvm to get the whole picture

04:43:54 <DanC> yes, orkut has a dangerous feel to it. :->

04:44:21 <sandro> I suppose we could blog http://www.orkut.com/Community.aspx?cmm=1094

04:44:30 <sandro> s/blug/chump

04:44:58 <DanC> I wonder about access control... it prompted me for a password

04:45:30 <sandro> you need to be logged in, yeah. not so nice for chump, unless we annotate it appropriately.... somehow.

04:46:21 <DanC> the dang thing seems to be spreading like wildfire. I'm not quite sure why... maybe the photos?

04:46:38 <monkeyiq> DanC: I suspect using df twice would be best, to get the byte level data for working out how full the pie is and again with -h for labels that are actually readable.

04:46:46 <DanC> I mean: I surf for a while, adding people I know, and then... I stop.

04:46:49 <monkeyiq> DanC: it just dawned on me that there is a tool similar

04:47:23 * DanC isn't looking forward to figuring out label placement

04:47:45 <sandro> but each time a friend of yours wants to add you, you get dragged in again, and you start to maybe wonder who is a friend of who...... But yeah -- the thrill will probably last about two more weeks.

04:48:16 <DanC> the use of photos is very well done. and "communities"

04:48:44 <DanC> the whole thing just shows what a difference a nice, simple, well-designed interface/layout makes.

04:49:31 <sandro> Indeed. And fast response time. The factors kind of multiply, to make orkut about 1000 times nicer than friendster.

04:49:44 <monkeyiq> DanC: maybe http://freshmeat.net/projects/kdirstat/ would do instead?

04:50:21 <DanC> does it grok lvm?

04:51:26 <monkeyiq> DanC: Dunno, I use EVMS instead and dont use that tool, just seemed close to what you wanted.

04:51:35 <DanC> no, kdirstat looks kinda like the gnome resource monitor... it makes an 80% used 1GB filesystem look "bigger" than a 50% used 100GB filesystem

04:51:46 <DanC> .google EVMS

04:51:57 <sandro> its clever but annoying that it orders your "friends" by how many "friends" they have. And it seems to order communities by the order you join them.

04:53:13 * DanC finds lots of happy evms packages in debian... sigh...

04:53:44 <DanC> apt-get needs a warning... "dude, LVM is like, so 2001. get with the program... EVMS rocks."

04:54:09 <monkeyiq> There seems to be debait about if lvm2 will replace evms in 2.6, but thats from some dude on IRC and I haven't confirmed it.

04:54:28 <monkeyiq> the evms site seems to not mention this and they are happily updating there patches.

04:55:33 <monkeyiq> though half the problem with linux is finding out which of the tools is currently in vouge

04:56:39 <DanC> quite.

04:57:03 <DanC> hmm... the debian evms package description reeks of meta-disease: "The EVMS project provides unparalleled flexibility and extensibility

04:57:03 <DanC> in managing storage. This project represents a new approach to

04:57:03 <DanC> logical volume management. The architecture introduces a plug-in

04:57:03 <DanC> model that allows for easy expansion or customization of various

04:57:03 <DanC> levels of volume management."

04:57:24 <monkeyiq> brb

04:58:03 <DanC> HELLO ALL OPEN SOURCE SOFTWARE DEVELOPERS: flexibility and plug-in architectures are a PAIN IN THE ASS! Yes, I knowt they're cool, but DON'T lead your project description that way.

04:58:20 <DanC> First, tell me wtf I want to *use* your software for!

04:58:55 <sandro> :-)

04:59:48 <DanC> try "ever get stuck because /var filled up? ever regret your partitioning choices and which you could change them? try EVMS."

05:02:18 <DanC> ah... LVM is better, for me: "In order to make use of it, you must use a kernel which includes the EVMS patch"

05:04:17 <monkeyiq> yeah, the patching is a bit of a PITA, but I've had to do that for XFS etc anyway

05:04:47 <monkeyiq> the plugins in evms aren't much pain at all, and some of them are quite nice, like the bad block remapper etc.

05:08:18 * DanC finds http://www.codestore.net/store.nsf/unid/EPSD-5DTT4L?OpenDocument quite handy for this SVG excercise

05:25:48 * DanC gets labels sorta working...

09:34:30 <arnarl> hi

09:35:26 <Wack> 'mornin

09:36:26 <Wack> hmm, it looks like ms is reinventing the RDF(S) wheel for their longhorn 'WinFS'

09:40:31 <deelan> hehe... they always come late

09:41:12 <deelan> i premuse they will use straight XML schemas

09:44:18 <Wack> looking at some information, it would be rather trivial to map their schemas to rdfs and their data to rdf

09:44:49 <Wack> some employee digresses on their 'relationship' type (rdfs:Property) here: http://anopinion.net/posts/261.aspx

09:44:56 <Wack> rather interesting blog

09:45:51 <Wack> and the unanswered question anyone would ask: http://anopinion.net/posts/266.aspx#288 :/

09:50:26 <deelan> so they are wondering why not to use a non-xml grammar. ohhh, they are sooo clever :)

09:51:49 <Wack> their schemas look pretty straightforward: http://www.tweakers.net/ext/i.dsp/1075501474.gif

09:52:25 <deelan> i prefer turtle

09:52:30 <deelan> by a long shot.

09:52:34 <Wack> oh hey, there is a downloadable of all schemas and api's that come with winfs/longhorn: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=FECF2A16-BE70-44F9-8037-EE270034D226&displaylang=en

09:53:12 <deelan> i'm not really interested in proprietary tecnologies

09:53:29 <Wack> it's open enough

09:55:20 <Wack> sure, it's unfortunate they dont use rdf/rdfs, but who knows when using their current implementation was designed and decided upon

09:55:24 <deelan> ok, i will try to view the good side of the coin: it's feasible to map MS schemas to RDF. :)

09:56:09 <Wack> and they sync their stores using xml with remote stores

09:57:02 <deelan> dob box said it all about his attitude on RDF: http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/1642.html#c1068448386

09:57:11 <deelan> dob/don

10:33:43 <sbp> logger, pointer?

10:33:43 <sbp> See http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2004-02-02#T10-33-43

10:38:01 <darobin__> darobin__ is now known as darobin

13:23:17 * azaroth knows that (a) this is pretty off topic, and (b) he should show up here more than once a year but does anyone know of an XML schema to represent the results of evaluating an XPath expression?

13:24:19 <libby> hello azaroth!

13:24:23 <libby> no, sorry

13:24:43 <azaroth> Heyas Libby :) How's things

13:27:41 <libby> not so bad thanks. how are you?

13:27:55 <azaroth> Pretty good. Finally got round to graduating.

13:28:03 <libby> hurrah!

13:28:24 <libby> what are you working on?

13:28:49 <azaroth> Yup. Still working on Cheshire stuff, though more and more things like integration with OpenOffice, SRW and a distributed processing rewrite

13:29:01 <libby> blimry

13:29:05 <libby> blimey

13:30:34 <azaroth> It's all good fun.

13:44:46 <chaalsNCE> libby?

13:45:10 <chaalsNCE> Are there properties for all the ical todo bits (in particular completed, duedate) in the ical schema?

13:53:13 <libby> hello

13:53:22 <libby> (thanks for the phone charger btw :)

13:53:28 <libby> hm

13:53:42 <libby> there may or may not be depending on whetherwe have atestcase for them

13:53:55 <libby> if you provide a testcase, we could maybe include it?

14:09:37 * DanC plays with diskchart.py some more...

14:17:49 <chaalsNCE> I've got a testcase in .ics

14:18:03 <libby> that would be enough

14:18:16 <chaalsNCE> do I just drop it into the tests directory?

14:18:46 <libby> do you actually want it in the schema, or do you just want to see if ical2rdf works?

14:18:51 * DanC has been playing with the calendar tests lately...

14:19:29 * DanC is torn... I'm swapped in on diskchart.py, but calendar testing is probably more important, and libby seems to be here...

14:20:04 <libby> cool danc. I saw some of what you've been doing, looks great

14:20:19 <libby> I can;t use cvs from here, so I'm prehaps not taht useful

14:20:20 <DanC> charles, wanna do me a favor? I worked out a few bugs in the calendar test harness; wanna see if you can reproduce my results?

14:20:32 <chaalsNCE> I've also got an idea about how I want to do it - instead of having <Vtodo><completed>20040202T1234Z</completed> I'd like to have <Vtodo><x:Status><completed>...</><x:evidence rdf:resource="http://example.org/didit"/>...

14:20:54 <chaalsNCE> DanC sure, but I probably need a few instructions...

14:21:00 <DanC> yes, of course.

14:21:07 <DanC> BLURB: running the RDF calendar tests

14:21:08 <dc_rdfig> A: running the RDF calendar tests from DanC

14:21:11 <chaalsNCE> (I tried to run toIcal.py and found that it didn't know about mystore :(

14:21:14 <DanC> logger, chump A:

14:21:14 <DanC> A:See [http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2004-02-02#T14-21-14|discussion]

14:21:14 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A1.

14:21:41 * chaalsNCE is yours for 40 minutes

14:21:44 <DanC> I think I fixed the myStore bit... not sure I checked it in; that's why I want to see if you can reproduce it.

14:22:05 * DanC has a bit less than 40, but that should do

14:22:18 <DanC> do you have 2002/12/cal checked out, chaals?

14:22:23 <DanC> go there and do: make test

14:22:31 <chaalsNCE> will in a minute...

14:23:33 <DanC> libby, how about an RDF Calendar ScheduledTopicChat this Weds? I've got a bunch of stuff I want attaboys for ;-)

14:23:45 <chaalsNCE> libby, me too :-)

14:23:51 <chaalsNCE> DanC: No good...

14:23:57 <libby> sounds fine to me, good idea

14:24:12 <chaalsNCE> (cd test; PYTHONPATH=../../../../2000/10/swap python cal-retest.py -f cal-regression.n3)

14:24:20 <chaalsNCE> Warning: $SWAP/thing.py is obsolete: use term/py and myStore.py

14:24:29 <chaalsNCE> Traceback (most recent call last):

14:24:29 <libby> what sort of time?

14:24:39 <chaalsNCE> Traceback (most recent call last):

14:24:48 <chaalsNCE> main()

14:24:57 <chaalsNCE> File "cal-retest.py", line 145, in main

14:25:06 <chaalsNCE> kb = loadMany(testFiles)

14:25:14 <chaalsNCE> File "/Users/charles/W3C/WWW/2000/10/swap/thing.py", line 145, in loadMany

14:25:22 <chaalsNCE> return _checkStore().loadMany(uris)

14:25:29 <chaalsNCE> File "/Users/charles/W3C/WWW/2000/10/swap/thing.py", line 90, in _checkStore

14:25:37 <chaalsNCE> assert storeClass!= None, "Some storage module must register with thing.py before you can use it"

14:25:45 <chaalsNCE> AssertionError: Some storage module must register with thing.py before you can use it

14:25:52 <chaalsNCE> make: *** [test-name-conflict] Error 1

14:26:01 <chaalsNCE> [Chaals:2002/12/cal] charles%

14:26:03 <chaalsNCE> ]]]

14:26:11 * DanC investigates...

14:26:59 <danbri> I've had that error before

14:26:59 <chaalsNCE> oops.

14:27:06 * chaalsNCE updates swap

14:27:07 <DanC> indeed, I've got changes I haven't checked in...

14:27:12 * DanC reviews diffs before committing...

14:27:44 <chaalsNCE> (more warnings, but no difference in the result :(

14:29:33 <DanC> crud; I didn't check in my stable version of cal-retest.py before I started ripping it... hang on...

14:32:14 <DanC> ok, update in cal (and cal/test) and try: make retest

14:34:16 <chaalsNCE> nope:

14:34:18 <chaalsNCE> [[[

14:34:20 <chaalsNCE> ######### 1) RDF calendar meet announcement 20030115

14:34:29 <chaalsNCE> Can't locate Digest/SHA1.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /sw/lib/perl5 /sw/lib/perl5/darwin /System/Library/Perl/5.8.1/darwin-thread-multi-2level /System/Library/Perl/5.8.1 /Library/Perl/5.8.1/darwin-thread-multi-2level /Library/Perl/5.8.1 /Library/Perl /Network/Library/Perl/5.8.1/darwin-thread-multi-2level /Network/Library/Perl/5.8.1 /Network/Library/Perl .) at ../ical2rdf.pl line 65.

14:34:37 <chaalsNCE> BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at ../ical2rdf.pl line 65.

14:34:46 <chaalsNCE> Traceback (most recent call last):

14:34:56 <chaalsNCE> File "cal-retest.py", line 194, in ?

14:35:00 <chaalsNCE> main()

14:35:08 <chaalsNCE> File "cal-retest.py", line 169, in main

14:35:16 <chaalsNCE> execute(cmd)

14:35:22 <chaalsNCE> File "cal-retest.py", line 83, in execute

14:35:31 <chaalsNCE> raise RuntimeError("Error %i executing %s" %(result, cmd1))

14:35:38 <chaalsNCE> RuntimeError: Error 512 executing perl ../ical2rdf.pl 20030115mtg.ics > ,temp/20030115mtg.rdf

14:35:46 <chaalsNCE> make: *** [retest] Error 1

14:35:48 <chaalsNCE> ]]]

14:39:00 <chaalsNCE> libby, I want it in the schema.

14:39:18 <chaalsNCE> (since I am generating things as todos according to the schema, and can't find it... :-)

14:39:44 <libby> I think only three files are curently used to generate the schema

14:40:13 <libby> and we don;t have a process for decidin to add new ones. although it should be strightforward (announce to list?)

14:40:41 <DanC> chaalsNCE, you need to install the SHA perl module from CPAN. do you know how to do that? are you on a debian box?

14:41:18 * DanC wonders about friendlier error messages for "you need the SHA1 and JCode modules"

14:41:20 <chaalsNCE> I'm on OS 10.3 and I don't know how to do it...

14:41:29 <DanC> libby, can you advise chaals?

14:42:34 <chaalsNCE> it has perl 5.8.1 installled (I ahve the Xcode tools, which include programming stuff like compilers).

14:43:11 <libby> you shoudl justbe able to download and compile as per the links in thefile. I used the cpan installer thing I think

14:43:42 <danbri> it needs compiled C code? :(

14:43:57 <libby> I don;t know, I don;t think so

14:44:02 * chaalsNCE suspects that http://www.cpan.org/modules/INSTALL.html will get me there.

14:44:21 <chaalsNCE> it says (more or less) download, unzip/unpack, make blabla

14:44:24 <libby> sha1 is pretty simple. you can comment out the other if needs be

14:44:29 <libby> yep, taht's it

14:44:37 <DanC> I'd expect SHA1 to be implemented in C, yes, danbri. Meanwhile, I prefer python's "batteries included" approach. I'm this >< far from re-writing rdf2ical.pl in python

14:45:02 <libby> I did this chaals: perl -MCPAN -e shell (thanks shellac)

14:45:27 <shellac> as root - so sudo ....

14:45:34 <DanC> if you can comment it out, libby, we should make a command-line flag for that case. I started working on that, but couldn't hold my nose long enough to think of how to do that in perl.

14:46:14 <chaalsNCE> lib, should I configure manually or let it try for me?

14:46:30 * DanC designed about 2/3rds of ical2rdf.py in the shower the other day

14:46:52 <chaalsNCE> libby?

14:47:06 <libby> erm, dunno chaals

14:47:14 <chaalsNCE> heh. I went auto

14:47:24 <libby> when I did it I just read the install instrctions and it just worked

14:47:35 <libby> sorry, I don;t use perl much

14:48:13 <libby> yeah I agree Danc, makes sense, but I don;t know if you can do 'use module' like that. probably

14:49:05 <chaalsNCE> OK, think this will work, but not going to get to it until after DanC chairs a meeting with me in it...

14:50:22 <DanC> ok, let's go meta for a second... my target is that we work out the kinks in running the tests, and a number of people get write access to the repository, after agreeing that they can only check stuff in that passes the tests.

14:50:38 <DanC> ... and agreeing to announce changes that affect the schema to www-rdf-calendar

14:51:09 <DanC> libby, I'd like to get MK in as a committer. do you think he'd come to a ScheduledTopicChat this weds?

14:51:19 <chaalsNCE> OK...

14:51:35 <libby> I'm sure, if it's not too late

14:51:49 <libby> in the day I mean

14:52:06 <libby> 1600 GMT is midnight there I think

14:54:25 <kota> It's 1 am in Japan at that time.

14:54:48 <libby> ouchy

14:55:03 <danbri> MK has some (teaching) relationship to Keio, which may count as suitable link to W3C Member. Needs investigating. Otherwise we're in Invited Expert or new Member recruitment territory I think.

14:55:15 <danbri> ...re committer ACLs for w3.org

14:55:23 <libby> hm: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?day=4&month=2&year=2004&p1=0&p2=248&p3=24&p4=-1

14:55:30 <danbri> (for RDF/Exif schema too)

14:58:07 * DanC doesn't think membership is relevant to advanced development committer rights

14:58:24 <DanC> kota, do you know MK?

14:58:54 <kota> hmm, what is "know"

14:58:55 <libby> maybe at midnight GMT: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?year=2004&month=2&day=4&hour=0&min=0&sec=0

14:58:58 <DanC> kota, I'm Dan Connolly, btw. (more about me: http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/). I don't recognize you by your nick.

14:59:44 <DanC> well, kota, I'd like to find a time when MK, libby, and I can talk about development of RDF calendar tests and such, and I wonder if you could facilitate that discussion.

15:01:02 * DanC must chair a telcon for the next hour

15:01:33 <kota> hmm, well,,, since 16pm GMT is 1am in JST, that's kinda hard to discuss at that time.

15:01:51 <libby> kota, I wasn;t suggesting that :)

15:02:11 <libby> uk/US/Japan is tricky to schedule. I can go quite late in the evening if I have notice

15:02:15 <kota> yeah i know,,,

15:03:44 <DanC> I can do wierd times too

15:12:29 <kota> .time JST

16:18:45 <chaalsNCE> DanC? I did the CPAN install SHA thing, and it seemed to think it worked...

16:18:53 <chaalsNCE> any next step?

16:19:00 <DanC> for JCode too? next step: make retest again

16:19:41 <chaalsNCE> ah, not JCode. Hang on...

16:22:21 <chaalsNCE> still no worky :(

16:22:46 <chaalsNCE> but new error :-)

16:22:48 <chaalsNCE> [[[

16:23:03 <chaalsNCE> (cd test; PYTHONPATH=../../../../2000/10/swap python cal-retest.py -f cal-regression.n3)

16:23:14 <chaalsNCE> ######### 1) RDF calendar meet announcement 20030115

16:23:23 <chaalsNCE> loading...file:/Users/charles/W3C/WWW/2002/12/cal/test/,temp/20030115mtg.rdf

16:23:30 <chaalsNCE> exporting...

16:23:37 <chaalsNCE> Traceback (most recent call last):

16:23:47 <chaalsNCE> File "../../../../2000/10/swap/pim/toIcal.py", line 727, in ?

16:23:54 <chaalsNCE> main(sys.argv)

16:24:04 <chaalsNCE> File "../../../../2000/10/swap/pim/toIcal.py", line 699, in main

16:24:12 <chaalsNCE> c.export(sts, addr)

16:24:20 <chaalsNCE> File "../../../../2000/10/swap/pim/toIcal.py", line 175, in export

16:24:28 <chaalsNCE> self.exportEvent(sts, comp)

16:24:37 <chaalsNCE> File "../../../../2000/10/swap/pim/toIcal.py", line 394, in exportEvent

16:24:46 <chaalsNCE> if s[PRED] not in (ICAL.dtstart, ICAL.dtend, ICAL.duration,

16:24:54 <chaalsNCE> NameError: global name 'PRED' is not defined

16:25:02 <chaalsNCE> Traceback (most recent call last):

16:25:08 <chaalsNCE> File "cal-retest.py", line 194, in ?

16:25:15 <chaalsNCE> main()

16:25:24 <chaalsNCE> File "cal-retest.py", line 176, in main

16:25:32 <chaalsNCE> execute(cmd)

16:25:39 <chaalsNCE> File "cal-retest.py", line 83, in execute

16:25:46 <chaalsNCE> raise RuntimeError("Error %i executing %s" %(result, cmd1))

16:25:53 <chaalsNCE> RuntimeError: Error 256 executing PYTHONPATH=../../../../2000/10/swap python ../../../../2000/10/swap/pim/toIcal.py ,temp/20030115mtg.rdf > ,temp/20030115mtg,.ics

16:26:02 <chaalsNCE> make: *** [retest] Error 1

16:26:08 <chaalsNCE> ]]]

16:38:44 <DanC> ah; hi chaalsNCE

16:38:56 <chaalsNCE> hi...

16:39:54 <DanC> chaalsNCE, your toIcal.py is out of date. toIcal.py,v 2.6 2004/01/31 00:11:06

16:42:34 <chaalsNCE> update... $Id: toIcal.py,v 2.7 2004/01/31 00:45:10 timbl Exp $

16:44:12 <chaalsNCE> make retest still gives the same result :(

16:44:54 * DanC is confused, investigating 2.7...

16:46:14 * chaalsNCE wondeers if there is a make clean or something that should have been done before make retest...

16:46:26 * chaalsNCE follows instructions as literally as he can...

16:46:59 <DanC> grab 2.8 no, pls, chaalsNCE

16:47:10 <DanC> pls grab 2.8 now, chaalsNCE

16:49:09 <chaalsNCE> going nicely...

16:50:04 <chaalsNCE> football games seem to take a while. I guess that would be american football then :-)

16:50:52 <chaalsNCE> no errors in 20 tests. I guess that's a good thing.

16:51:07 <DanC> indeed!

16:51:17 <DanC> logger, chump A:

16:51:17 <DanC> A:See [http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2004-02-02#T16-51-17|discussion]

16:51:17 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A2.

16:51:28 <DanC> A:chaalsNCE was able to do it

16:51:28 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A3.

16:51:35 <chaalsNCE> so should I stick my test case of a todo in the directory and try it again?

16:51:57 <DanC> yes... you need to add it to test/cal-regression.n3 too

16:52:06 <chaalsNCE> oki...

16:52:21 * chaalsNCE wonders if this is documented somewhere, or if he should scribble it into the wiki afterwards

16:52:35 <DanC> A:cal-regression.n3 is a misnomer. regression tests should correlate to fixed bugs. it should be called cal-feature-tests.n3 or some such

16:52:35 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A4.

16:52:53 <DanC> chaalsNCE, the input to a test case is actually an .rdf file

16:53:04 <DanC> so to make the test input, run ical2rdf.pl on your .ics file by hand

16:53:40 * DanC hopes chaalsNCE will decorate A: with a human-readable summary of this process as he understands it... perhaps by reference to an ESW wiki topic

16:54:06 <chaalsNCE> OK...

16:57:26 <chaalsNCE> nope ical2rdf.pl no worky.

16:57:43 <DanC> A:nearby: [http://esw.w3.org/topic/RdfCalendar|RdfCalendar topic in ESW wiki]

16:57:43 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A5.

16:57:55 <DanC> symptoms/diagnostics, chaalsNCE?

16:58:38 <chaalsNCE> gives a partial file - gets as far as <method

16:58:42 <chaalsNCE> and ends abruptly

16:59:06 <chaalsNCE> several of these: @@ TODO: implement getting X- namespace URI from command line or PRODID: WR-CALNAME

16:59:27 <chaalsNCE> (also for PRODID: WR-RELCALID and WR-TIMEZONE

16:59:29 <chaalsNCE> )

16:59:40 <chaalsNCE> then stops with

16:59:43 <chaalsNCE> no value type given, default unknown: method :PUBLISH at /Users/charles/W3C/WWW/2000/10/swap/pim/ical2rdf.pl line 167, <> line 9.

17:00:03 * DanC suspects an old ical2rdf.pl

17:00:06 <DanC> what version do you have?

17:00:41 <DanC> ical2rdf.pl,v 1.22 2004/01/21 23:30:46

17:00:49 <chaalsNCE> $Id: ical2rdf.pl,v 1.7 2003/04/14 21:20:51 connolly Exp $

17:00:56 <chaalsNCE> ouffa, I suspect you're right

17:01:30 <DanC> re 'make clean' I do suggest you cvs update in 2002/12/cal , and perhaps in 2000/10/swap

17:02:38 * DanC wonders if chaalsNCE would put some energy into finding a time for MK, DanC, libby, and chaals to chat

17:02:49 <libby> did you see mk's email danc?

17:02:56 <chaalsNCE> yep, did so, but still have the same old version :(

17:03:16 * chaalsNCE would indeed put some time into it...

17:03:20 * DanC has seen several mail messages from mk, but suspects libby has a particular one in mind

17:04:00 <libby> he says he'll be at his desk till 16:30 UTC; or he could do 22:00 UTC

17:04:54 * DanC sees 2 msgs from MK, Jan 6 on RDF ical examples and Jan 31 on event sherpa

17:05:27 <libby> I'll try fwding

17:05:44 <libby> actually I can't do 22:00 now :(

17:05:47 * DanC wonders if he's using an address not known to my spam defenses...

17:06:36 <libby> quite likely

17:06:52 <libby> he asked me to use a particular one for responsiveness from him

17:07:36 <chaalsNCE> w3c cvs esrver says that ical2rdf.pl was last changed 9 months ago by connolly - version 1.7 "ical section done"

17:07:40 <DanC> has he published the sha1 of the email address he uses? (having just updated my whole desktop, I have renewed interest in foaf/ldap/whitelist foo)

17:07:59 <chaalsNCE> w3c cvs server - dev.w3.org/cvsweb ...

17:08:01 <DanC> full URI, chaalsNCE?

17:08:16 <chaalsNCE> at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2000/10/swap/pim/?sortby=file#dirlist

17:08:29 <DanC> wrong one. use the one in 2002/12/cal

17:08:36 <chaalsNCE> oh, ok

17:08:43 <DanC> sorry for not marking that one obsolete more clearly

17:10:17 <chaalsNCE> ical2rdf seems to work fine now like that :-)

17:10:49 <chaalsNCE> is there a nice way of linking so that the 2 versions are the same? (symlink + http redirect?)

17:11:03 * chaalsNCE waits for the football again :-)

17:11:27 <DanC> A:the initrdf stuff masks a bunch of bugs, by the way. I've gotten as far as taking that out, but haven't checked it in because it looks like such a step backwards.

17:11:28 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A6.

17:11:39 <deelan> ical2rdf, great

17:11:47 <DanC> no, there's no nice way that I know of, chaals.

17:12:01 <libby> masahide has a foaf file, but no mboxsha1sum

17:12:35 <DanC> chaalsNCE, football as in next step? add your test case to 2002/12/cal/test/cal-regression.n3 (monkey-see monkey-do should work) and try again

17:12:51 <DanC> your TODO test case

17:13:17 * DanC thinks this is great... I just checked in the support for TODO stuff, with a "@@I owe a test" check-in comment

17:13:20 <chaalsNCE> no, football is just a slow test... (I did them all again)

17:13:27 <chaalsNCE> Comparison fails: executing PYTHONPATH=../../../../2000/10/swap python ../../../../2000/10/swap/cwm.py graphCompare.n3 --think --purge-rules --with ,temp/Todos1.rdf ,temp/Todos1,.rdf > ,compare/Todos1-compare.n3

17:13:52 <chaalsNCE> ######### test case failed: Todos1

17:13:58 <DanC> hmm

17:13:58 <chaalsNCE> Rats.

17:14:20 * chaalsNCE goes to try a simpler testcase.

17:14:38 <libby> there is a todo testcase in there I think somewhere

17:15:01 <DanC> WWW/2002/12/cal/test$ ls *todo*

17:15:01 <DanC> ls: *todo*: No such file or directory

17:15:16 <DanC> cal/test$ grep -i todo *.ics

17:15:16 <DanC> MozMulipleVcalendars.ics:BEGIN:VTODO

17:15:31 <libby> right...which seems to be forbidden

17:15:47 <DanC> what's forbidden?

17:15:56 <libby> I put that in to test multiple vcalendars but does also have todos

17:16:03 <libby> http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/test/MozMulipleVcalendars.ics

17:16:13 <libby> and the redf version

17:16:16 <libby> rdf

17:16:17 * deelan thinks: Mozilla calendar uses Ical files, there's a tool to conv. iCal to RDF.

17:16:21 <DanC> odd; didn't we get auto-public-chacl working for all of 2002/12/cal?

17:16:33 <libby> I thought so yep

17:16:35 * deelan concludes this is good.

17:17:00 <DanC> deelan, do you use the mozilla calendar? I tried to get it working from scratch in the past week and failed.

17:17:14 <chaalsNCE> oops. /me did something stupid

17:17:14 <deelan> i'm downloading it right now

17:17:56 <chaalsNCE> (um, in particular, put Todos.rdf into the wrong directory :(

17:18:00 <deelan> danc: i will try the thunderbord build

17:18:59 <DanC> deelan, if you learn anything interesting, I'd appreciate it if you'd update http://esw.w3.org/topic/CalendarUserAgents

17:19:09 <deelan> ok.

17:21:00 <chaalsNCE> but same results

17:22:49 <DanC> chaalsNCE, check in cal/test/Todos1.rdf so I can try, pls?

17:23:03 <chaalsNCE> ok.

17:24:17 * DanC checks time to next telcon...

17:24:47 * chaalsNCE checks in Todos1.rdf, Todos1.ics and cal-regression.n3

17:26:39 * chaalsNCE thinks he should have looked at the Makefile to see if he could just test one file before launching yet another complete test...

17:30:07 * libby has to go - see you later guys

17:31:09 <DanC> I cheated and moved your test to the beginning of cal-regression.n3 , chaals (didn't check it in though)

17:31:21 <chaalsNCE> quel glandeur! :-)

17:31:32 <DanC> I see a few properties that aren't suviving the trip: ical:due, for one

17:31:48 * chaalsNCE cheated and moved it to temp space, putting another one there in the meantime...

17:32:16 * DanC presumes "quel glandeur!" means "great idea!" but wonders a bit if it means "you sneaky snake!"

17:32:51 * chaalsNCE takes the 5th...

17:33:19 <chaalsNCE> (It sort of loosely translates as "yes, that would make the work much more efficient"...)

17:34:28 <evlist> Hmmm.... "glandeur" is more like lazy than sneaky.

17:34:37 * DanC waves to evlist

17:35:11 <chaalsNCE> Oh, does it? I had no idea... 0;-)

17:35:22 * evlist waves back to DanC

17:35:29 <DanC> chaalsNCE, I've got an hour 'till my next telcon, but I might need much of that to prepare. short answer is: you're pretty much at the cutting edge now.

17:35:38 <DanC> s/answer/summary/

17:36:17 <chaalsNCE> so if I can figure out how to make it work, should I check it in or send mail to www-rdf-calendar?

17:36:34 <DanC> a target to think about is: report from the RDF IG calendar task force at the W3C tech plenary in march

17:36:43 * chaalsNCE figures there are a couple of places to go poking, and hopes that monkey-see monkey-do will work...

17:36:52 <DanC> both, pls, chaals

17:36:59 <chaalsNCE> ok.

17:37:29 <chaalsNCE> need to look at ical2rdf.pl and toIcal.py, right?

17:37:39 <DanC> are you familiar with the "if anybody screams, be prepared to back out" policy around 2002/12/cal , chaals?

17:37:40 <chaalsNCE> err, and the schema perhaps.

17:37:46 <chaalsNCE> Yep.

17:38:05 <GabeW> joshua schachter from NYC!

17:38:07 <chaalsNCE> but not familiar with the syntax of vcs run_away

17:38:09 <GabeW> whoops

17:38:10 <GabeW> sorry

17:38:14 <chaalsNCE> s/vcs/cvs/

17:39:43 <DanC> things aren't terribly tidy in 2002/12/cal, chaalsNCE, so when in doubt, do check something in, provided you won't take offense if me or libby or danbri undoes it.

17:39:59 <chaalsNCE> OK, no worries.

17:40:18 * chaalsNCE has enough fenses and tries not to take any in general...

17:45:46 * chaalsNCE wonders if anyone can explain how to tell toIcal.py to find the module ../myStore.py or if he needs to do the sensible thing and go ask in pythonland

17:46:14 * chaalsNCE knows less python than PERL, and doesn't know much PERL...

18:40:26 <swh> swh is now known as swh_away

19:30:07 <azz_> azz_ is now known as azz

20:59:51 <sandro> sbp, that was a very strange dream.......

21:04:51 <sbp> heh, yeah it was

21:05:25 <sbp> strangeness seems to be a trademark of the times for me, though: I've just managed to compress the 18-line wiki I've been hacking on in Python down to 11 lines

21:06:02 <sbp> doing that 11-line-wiki dance must've helped, I guess...

21:08:05 * karlcow is wondering if a parallel context of "conformant HTML" wiki contest could be done :)

21:08:12 <karlcow> Just my own obsession ;)

21:08:39 <navycomm> hello all

21:08:57 <sbp> heh. perhaps I should try to find some way of getting apache to serve out all text/html files with a DOCTYPE automatically

21:08:59 <sbp> hi there

21:09:08 <karlcow> ;) hi sbp

21:09:22 <navycomm> maybe this will be a dumb question

21:09:29 <navycomm> hi sbp

21:09:54 <navycomm> has anyone of you done an irc bot answering trivia questions?

21:10:41 <karlcow> what kind of question?

21:10:43 <sbp> wait... *answering* questions? perhaps any bot with a ".google" function counts?

21:11:00 <karlcow> If you look for conversational bots. You have alice

21:11:14 <navycomm> all kind of questions

21:11:22 <karlcow> if you look for specific questions, like weather you have infobot

21:11:44 <navycomm> hmmm

21:11:48 <navycomm> thanks

21:12:20 <karlcow> navycomm: Almost everyone.

21:13:14 <navycomm> i was not thinking on an infobot type bot

21:13:40 <karlcow> navycomm: Perhaps I misunderstood. What were you?

21:13:58 <navycomm> :)

21:14:26 <karlcow> navycomm, I am so glad you find this amusing.

21:14:29 <navycomm> sorry for my bad english

21:14:48 <karlcow> There is no need to apologize. Your purpose is your bad english.

21:15:54 <karlcow> ok... I stop to be nasty with you.... I cut and paste the answer that Alice Bot was giving to your sentences as an example. :)))

21:15:55 <navycomm> hmmm

21:15:57 <karlcow>http://www.alicebot.org/

21:15:57 <dc_rdfig> B: http://www.alicebot.org/ from karlcow

21:16:11 <karlcow> B:|Alice Bot - Conversational Bot

21:16:11 <dc_rdfig> Titled item B.

21:16:20 <karlcow> sorry about that ;)

21:16:25 <navycomm> np

21:17:01 <karlcow> navycomm: Alice and you have a better english than mine for sure

21:17:40 <navycomm> thanks karlcow

21:51:54 <zzorn> zzorn is now known as zzorn_afk

22:54:46 <DanC> BLURB: foaf and business cards (again)

22:54:52 <dc_rdfig> C: foaf and business cards (again) from DanC

22:56:14 <DanC> C:I just got asked for my Name, Title, Phone, Fax, Mobile, URI, email by somebody who's about to do a run of business cards

22:56:15 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C1.

22:57:51 <DanC> C:time for [http://www.w3.org/2003/12/rdf-in-xhtml-xslts/complete-example.html|Joe Lambda] to get a business card

22:57:51 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C2.

23:00:15 <sbp> "[t]his page is licensed with a Creative Common License allowing copy and redistribution with attribution to the author" That would be, uh, Joe Lambda?

23:00:32 <sbp> chuckle: "Whee! Web publishing is fun!" - ibid. I wonder who "helped" Joe with his blog?

23:01:00 <sbp> output is solid, though using http://www.w3.org/2000/06/webdata/xslt to link it all together makes for a scary URI

23:01:39 <sbp> is there nothing that takes all of the xslt2rdf bits and gives some sane output?

23:02:03 * DanC intends to move the http://www.w3.org/2003/11/rdf-in-xhtml profile to a less scary URI; better do that soon, lest the cost go way up

23:02:45 * sbp nods

23:03:07 <DanC> hmm... maybe that URI's not so scary... and maybe it should be a little bit scary, given the iffy status of GRDDL

23:05:12 * sbp wonders if he can convince Those in Power that /200X/ is a way to make URIs less scary

23:06:02 <sbp> I've heard complaints that remembering dates is so difficult for some that they're most put off by date-stamped URIs. having a year and a month in the URI is worst case scenario, but coping with just a year is hard enough

23:06:12 * dajobe wonders if Scary URIs a new doc I've missed, wanders off

23:06:44 <DanC> who's trying to remember the date in a URI? don't blind type URIs; follow links!

23:06:58 * deltab nods

23:07:21 <deltab> if anything, they should be made less memorable

23:07:47 * DanC hopes to see URL fields in web browsers turned off by default soon... notes they're already not visible by default on my WearableGizmo and many other mobile gizmos

23:07:55 <sbp> but URIs have to be transcribed. you have to put them in email, you see them on the sides of buses. sometimes you even have to say them over the 'phone

23:07:58 <sbp> in theory, yes, I agree that URIs should never be seen. but the practice is far from that

23:08:17 <DanC> ok, but what's the practical situation where a year is causing a problem?

23:08:51 <DanC> I note that 4 digit numbers are *much* easier to get right over the phone than things like double-you-double-you-double-you ... is that a capital P in People?

23:08:56 <sbp> I tried turning off my address bar when you recommended it not so long ago. persevere though I did, I couldn't get it to be productive for me: I ended up making a bookmarklet that'd let me type the URI in if I really really had to, and ended up relying on it such that I just brought the address bar back

23:09:14 <sbp> I'm not asking for dates to be abandoned

23:09:24 <sbp> I'm asking for there to be a wildcard on the unit colum

23:09:26 <sbp> ...n

23:09:41 <DanC> wildcard? I don't follow you.

23:10:13 <sbp> as I said: /200X/ for example, the XHTML profile could be at http://www.w3.org/200X/html-rdf-profile or somesuch

23:10:27 <DanC> oh! you meant a literal X

23:10:41 <deltab> there are some things in 199X

23:11:12 <sbp> yes...

23:11:35 <sbp> deltab: on the W3C site?

23:11:53 <sbp> I get "ChAcl: No Selected Resources"

23:11:56 <deltab> not literally 199X, but there are some in 1999

23:12:01 <sbp> oh

23:12:31 <sbp> yeah, there'd be a minor "was that last decade or this?" problem when each decade rolls over, but at least it'd be every ten years and not every year

23:12:32 <deltab> iirc

23:12:45 <deltab> w3.org no longer allows me to connect

23:12:50 <DanC> sbp, any proposal for how to decide if something merits a spot under 200X? one of the main features of 2002/ 2003/ 2004/ is that nobody can do any damage that lasts more than a year, so we don't need to manage the decision centrally.

23:13:46 <DanC> i.e. all 70+ collaborators are allowed to mind new names under www.w3.org/2004 now

23:13:51 <DanC> mint

23:14:07 <sbp> you apply the same rule as you would if you, for example, lost a domain in early 2005. just keep anything that's already there

23:14:08 <deltab> example: http://www.w3.org/1999/04/WebData

23:14:50 <sbp> all 70+ collaborators would be allowed to mint new names under /200X/ - it'd be no different to 2004

23:15:30 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

23:17:17 <sbp> as for damage, perhaps it'd get people to think more carefully about the URIs that they mint. if they think "I can just take whatever I like since it'll roll over in a year's time", then perhaps /200X/ will turn them around

23:18:49 <chaalsNCE> morning lib

23:18:57 <libby> evenin'

23:19:23 * chaalsNCE goes to cook crepes - apparently it is a religious festival in France

23:19:36 <AaronSw> I don't understand why less-memorable URIs are good.

23:19:42 <chaalsNCE> (Do the french just have extra religious things 'cause they're good at crepes?)

23:20:03 <deltab> it forces people to copy them, instead of assuming they can remember them

23:20:25 <chaalsNCE> Aarons, they're like bad health service. They get people used to the idea that they shouldn't bother themselves trying to deal with things that don't work

23:20:42 <DanC> less memorable URIs aren't better than more memorable URIs, but they're cheaper to administer. So they're not completely optimal, but they are good.

23:20:55 * sbp can just imagine doing a ".porgoiajrg90815jfej-2003/05 web search" on datum in future

23:20:56 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

23:21:06 <AaronSw> deltab, why is forcing people to copy them good?

23:21:22 <deltab> I'm thinking of URIs used for comparison more than dereferencing here

23:22:01 <DanC> I consider it a pretty serious bug if end up typing a URI

23:22:29 <deltab> if you mistype a URI when going to a website, you probably notice it soon and fix it

23:22:31 <DanC> typing a domain name is just barely acceptable

23:23:00 <DanC> ... as is typing email addresses

23:23:09 <AaronSw> really? how do you normally get to pages?

23:23:29 <DanC> google or links from toolbark bookmarks

23:23:38 <AaronSw> doesn't that slow you down?

23:23:44 <DanC> doubt it

23:23:56 <DanC> I'm legendary for the speed with which I find things in the web

23:24:04 <deltab> URIs in links can survive longer with typos, but when people follow them they'll notice if they're borken

23:24:24 <DanC> and it's *because I invest in mechanisms other than typing URIs* that I'm fast. When a link is missing, I fix it.

23:25:09 <AaronSw> That doesn't strike me as a worthwhile investment, but then again my browser doesn't support PUT.

23:25:10 <deltab> but if a typo doesn't immediately make something go wrong, it can stay undetected for a long time

23:26:15 <AaronSw> Anyway, I've never understood why W3C collaborators couldn't come up with a couple of words describing the essence of the page and use those instead of the date as the URI. So you'd just have w3.org/rdf-in=html

23:26:20 <AaronSw> err rdf-in-html

23:26:30 <sbp> copying and pasting wouldn't introduce typos; it's rare that I have to type in anything more than a domain name, but very common to have to paste URIs between various applications

23:26:44 <DanC> often you/we/one doesn't know the essence of the page until the Nth draft.

23:28:03 <AaronSw> Hm. Research question: If you remove the dates from W3C URIs, how many of the names left over conflict

23:28:31 <sbp> or: what percentage

23:28:52 <DanC> "The "save as" filename dialog box is one of the things currently holding up our civilization." -- http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/UI.html

23:29:25 <AaronSw> Well, I won't argue with that

23:29:37 <DanC> you seem to be arguing with that.

23:29:39 <deltab> this could be the decade that changes

23:29:50 <DanC> you seem to be arguing that authors of w3.org web pages should think carefully about a filename

23:30:14 <sbp> DanC: you mean <http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/UI> "The canonical way of making links to the W3C site doesn't use the extension." - http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI

23:30:30 <AaronSw> No, i'm saying as long as you're saving-as and thinking of a name, you might as well pick a unique name and leave out the dates

23:30:39 <AaronSw> But I too would be for eliminating save as altogether

23:31:05 * DanC doesn't see the relevance of sbp's question

23:31:18 <DanC> what should happen instead of the current saveas dialog, AaronSw?

23:31:34 <sbp> it wasn't a question, it was a vaguely-related point of style that bugs me

23:31:59 <deltab> DanC: choose some keywords, categories, etc.

23:31:59 <AaronSw> The file should be saved in a database where metadata (urls, keywords, titles, topics, etc.) can be attached to it later

23:32:06 <sbp> (it is related in as much as URI persistence is concerned)

23:32:07 <DanC> datespace is the best compromise I've seen between the wide deployment of hierarchical filesystem tools (cvs, tar, make, etc) and a nirvana where the machine just manages a big flat space of names.

23:32:46 <AaronSw> Yeah, I don't understand why UNIX breaks down when you have lots of files in a directory

23:32:46 <DanC> ok, AaronSw, but what URI would the database choose?

23:33:13 <sbp> DanC: what are the criteria for choosing between /YYYY/ and /YYYY/MM/ for a date? the range seems arbitrarily decided. hence the argument that a decade is a valid range too

23:33:38 <DanC> good question, sbp; dunno

23:34:25 <AaronSw> If you hadn't given it a URL yet, it'd generate a MeRS

23:34:33 <deltab> I suppose the expected importance of something comes into it

23:34:36 <DanC> operationally, the only documented/enforced policy is: only Tim Berners Lee himself is authorized to mint new names under http://www.w3.org/. And since about 1999, he's only made one new one per year.

23:36:18 <DanC> the chaos theory of management (tm dilbert) takes care of the rest.

23:36:28 <sbp> heh

23:37:18 * DanC finds http://www.w3.org/Project/1998/03/dilbert98036081805.gif hmm... perhaps not world-readable.

23:38:15 * danbri adds http://www.nice-tits.org/pics.html to http://esw.w3.org/topic/ContentSelection4SemanticWeb on assumption someone'll find it appropriate for a demo

23:38:23 <sbp> I still think opening it up to a decade would be useful. opening it up to all-time, as Aaron suggests, may be too... it's a shame there's not a list of all the URIs that the W3C maintains so that his research question could be answered. but forever is a long time...

23:38:28 <AaronSw> Heh. I still remember my randomly-generated W3C password after all these years...

23:38:58 <deltab> readable copy: http://www.lstud.ii.uib.no/~s048/dilbert/dilbert98036081805.gif

23:39:40 <sbp> I was allowed to set mine. but I forgot my username for a while there...

23:40:03 <sbp> (and it doesn't even have a date in it)

23:40:05 * DanC wonders if that uib.no copy is licensed

23:40:43 * sbp wonders if that w3.org copy is licensed

23:41:17 * DanC supposes the w3.org copy is licensed as much as taking a copy from the newspaper and sticking it on a bulletin board in the hallway

23:41:54 * sbp considers that, and agrees

23:42:10 <AaronSw> sticking a copy on the hallway does not involve making a copy, thus it does not involve copyright law

23:42:39 <deltab> unless it counts as "public performance"

23:43:24 <DanC> right... public performance... neither does taking my copy of LOTR on DVD to a local theater,projecting it, and charging for it involve making a copy, but it sure involves copyright law

23:43:59 <AaronSw> right, but public performance is generally defined as "a place open to the public, or at any place where a 'substantial' number of persons outside of a normal circle of family and social acquaintances is gathered."

23:44:10 <AaronSw> I'm pretty sure the office hallway wouldn't count

23:44:22 <DanC> my point was that copyright law is about more than making copies

23:45:27 * sbp wonders if the text of the comic is short enough such that quoting it all will count as fair use

23:46:41 <DanC> hmm... I took this task of doing my business card in foaf here from a team-confidential forum, but it gerated so much discussion, at so many levels of meta, that family time approaches and I haven't made any tangible progress. sigh.

23:48:30 <sbp> you made progress in those meta-areas, though

23:48:32 <DanC> hmm... do I want a thing that looks like a business card on my homepage? or do I want one generated from my homepage?

23:49:40 <DanC> I previously divulged more info on my business card than I kept in public. Joe Lambda doesn't have that problem, but I wonder...

23:50:08 <sbp> if I had a use for business cards, I'd want a) a Web service that can convert my homepage, properly marked up, to PNG/GIF/PDF and b) a document explaining how to do it

23:50:44 <sbp> one can choose who to give business cards out to, generally, unless you leave a pile of them somewher

23:51:18 * DanC hasn't opened up the can of worms of asking the folks doing the business card printing about how they're getting the W3C logo printed, whether it's from SVG, etc.

23:51:42 <sbp> again, if I had a use for them... I can imagine printing out different series with varying levels of information and styles depending upon the sorts of people to whom I'd hand them out

23:52:00 <DanC> one can't be too terribly harsh on somebody who copies a phone number or email address from a business card I gave them into google-space

23:52:17 <chaalsNCE> Aaronsw, the office hallway would definitely count.

23:52:19 <sbp> yeah

23:52:59 <sbp> especially since 'phone-numbers are probably available from public records anyway

23:53:26 <DanC> my office phone number isn't a matter of public record. I regularly do google searches to make sure it's not.

23:54:11 <chaalsNCE> Despite what common sense tells you, inviting a few mates around for beer and Pizza and a gander at your DVD is also against the law (however old you are).

23:54:28 <chaalsNCE> Although it would be difficult to secure a conviction, I suspect.

23:54:29 * sbp wonders what Google's privacy policy is on those searches that you do

23:54:36 <DanC> phpht. never mind. yes it is.

23:55:27 * chaalsNCE avoids the temptation to chump some random numbers and tell the semantic web that they represent DanC's phone number.

23:55:52 * chaalsNCE would be put some effort into doing that if he ever found his own private number on the web.

23:56:13 <DanC> yes, chaff is going to be the only effective privacy mechanism pretty soon.

23:56:39 <chaalsNCE> ooh, 7 - 17 degrees tomorrow

23:57:08 * DanC wanders off... family time...

23:57:10 <chaalsNCE> (that's degrees Celsius)

23:57:13 * DanC is away: family time

23:57:14 <deltab> degrees-of-separation forecast?

23:57:23 <chaalsNCE> :-)

23:58:03 <DanC> C:[http://www.w3.org/People/djweitzner/public/webwho.xrdf|djw's new foaf file]

23:58:04 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C3.

23:59:20 <DanC> C:[http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/2003/12/07/2003-12-07.html#1070835232.976231|previous episode, July 2003]

23:59:20 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C4.

23:59:49 <DanC> C:bounty is still offered

23:59:49 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C5.