Semantic Web Interest Group IRC Chat Logs for 2004-02-03

00:00:47 <DanC> logger, chump C:

00:00:47 <DanC> C:See [http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2004-02-03#T00-00-47|discussion]

00:00:48 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C6.

00:01:57 <DanC> C:see also [https://www.linkedin.com/|LinkedIn] re title

00:01:57 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C7.

00:04:05 * AaronSw presumes chaalsNCE is kidding

00:06:06 <chaalsNCE> No. If you think I am kidding, you should have a closer look at the law.

00:07:12 <AaronSw> I've looked at the law, I doubt a few friends is "a substantial number of persons outside of a normal circle of a family and its social acquaintances"

00:07:30 <chaalsNCE> Making sure the little cartoon mouse can be sold, instead of just falling into the public domain, is very big business, and has led to some very powerful (but not much used in extremis) law.

00:10:14 <AaronSw> yes, copyright law is crazy, but inviting friends over is still legal

00:10:38 * chaalsNCE has a closer look at his friends...

00:15:54 * chaalsNCE wonders if Australia got that sensible about copyright law, but doubts it.

00:16:32 <chaalsNCE> last I heard they simply said "sure it's illegal, but no judge would find damages of more than 1 dollar, and would find costs against the plaintiff..."

00:16:51 <chaalsNCE> illegal / breach of copyright.

00:17:49 <AaronSw> well here, when it is illegal, they actually make you pay

00:18:04 <chaalsNCE> (although the prime minister of the day, and the leader of the opposition who has since become prime minister, did demonstrate their respect for the laws of the land by teraing up currency notes, therby risking imprisonment of up to 5 years)

00:18:48 <chaalsNCE> yeah, occasionally they go after aussies too. (and get them).

00:19:28 <chaalsNCE> And there are some clear cases (although copyright law, on the whole, strikes me as something we might be better off without).

02:36:44 * Ankh looking for Mr Benn :)

02:36:52 <mattb> only fans of mr benn here

02:36:59 <Ankh> ah

02:37:03 <Ankh> I won't find him then :)

02:37:12 <mattb> as if by magic... no

02:37:20 <Ankh> "My Benn" said "please can I be your friend on orkut" to me :)

02:37:37 <mattb> yeah, me too

02:37:40 <Ankh> but looked suspiciously... rdf-like

02:37:40 <mattb> i think cartoons are magic

02:37:50 <Ankh> not surprised you too, it's a repeat ;)

02:38:33 <Ankh> maybe I should register Ivor the Engine

02:41:21 <Ankh> btw you might be interested in the image search stuff I've ben doing

02:41:29 <mattb> i would be

02:41:44 <mattb> i've been mighty unproductive for the last several months, got out of touch with the new work

02:41:51 <Ankh> how do I give a non-logged URL here? is it [off] and then the URL?

02:43:47 <Ankh> I have not tested the SVG stuff recently

02:44:00 <mattb> ah, i need to frob my svg plugin status

02:44:10 * mattb mails to himself for trying at work

02:44:21 <Ankh> the URL I just gave yuo isn't SVGified

02:44:32 <Ankh> but yuo can set mode=svg for an SVG version

02:44:41 <mattb> aha, i'm just getting slow response then

02:44:44 <Ankh> yes

02:44:50 <mattb> i suspect dodginess in my adsl vicinity, however

02:44:53 <mattb> some sites simply don't route

02:45:02 <mattb> despite being able to see them from a shell somewhere else peered in london

02:45:17 <Ankh> hmm, well, you can try http://www.holoweb.net/~liam/pictures/oldbooks/ (hosted at same place)

02:45:31 <Ankh> (that's a public URL but it doesn't like to the RDF search stuff)

02:47:21 <Ankh> there's a relational database for physical stuff (filename, image size in pixels, thumbnail location, etc), (not 100% kosher) RDF for the keywords ("depicts"), and a separate geographic XML file for implementing "others in the same or adjoining counties"

02:47:49 <Ankh> lol

02:48:19 <Ankh> oops, laughing in the wrong window there

02:48:36 <mattb> a little mirth's always good

02:49:01 <mattb> my bedtime

02:49:07 <Ankh> k, later

02:49:22 * Ankh pads off to practice playing the piano

04:54:45 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

10:54:22 <swh_away> swh_away is now known as swh

13:23:51 <shellac_> shellac_ is now known as shellac

13:34:03 <mdupont> hey there, anyone know how to make a counter variable in cwm. a variable that gets updated every time the rule passes over it?

14:02:22 <sbp> mdupont: I had that problem. I cheated once using an amusing hack... let me try to find it

14:03:18 <sbp> oh, heh, it's borken now. let me fix it

14:05:53 <mdupont> sbp: thanks

14:05:59 <mdupont> i have a rule like this :

14:06:33 <mdupont> { ?a :list-head ?b. ?b :chan ?c } => { ?a :list-head ?c }.

14:06:47 <mdupont> i just want to add a position in the item

14:07:07 <mdupont> or even add a predicate step-N as well

14:16:21 <sbp> here was my hack: http://sbp.f2o.org/2003/counter

14:16:33 <sbp> just do a log:content to get the content as a string... :-)

14:16:41 <sbp> everytime you do a GET, it increments

14:17:18 <sbp> problem is, you're not guaranteed a linear increment: other people may be getting it, or, more irritatingly, CWM tends to invoke builtins a number of times before applying them

14:17:25 <sbp> perhaps that's changed now

14:31:13 <dajobe>http://www.mindswap.org/~aditkal/swoop.shtml

14:31:13 <dc_rdfig> A: http://www.mindswap.org/~aditkal/swoop.shtml from dajobe

14:31:20 <dajobe> A:|SWOOP OWL Ontology browser

14:31:20 <dc_rdfig> Titled item A.

14:31:39 <dajobe> A:works ok, a little bare in the GUI and docs area ;)

14:31:39 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A1.

14:32:05 <dajobe> A:nice hypertext style clicking to follow the refs

14:32:05 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A2.

14:35:23 <dajobe> A:|Semantic Web Ontology Overview and Perusal (SWOOP) OWL Ontology browser by Aditya Klyanpur

14:35:24 <dc_rdfig> Titled item A.

14:43:49 <mdupont> sbp: thatnks

14:44:46 <mdupont> counter is working!

14:44:47 <mdupont> cool

14:44:54 <sbp> yw

14:45:27 <bryce-mam_hlad> bryce-mam_hlad is now known as bryce

14:49:33 <mdupont> sbp: do you have the source somewhere?

14:49:56 <mdupont> doh

14:50:01 <mdupont> i see

14:50:13 <mdupont> ok

14:50:19 <mdupont> i look into log:content

14:52:33 <sbp> yeah

14:53:27 <sbp> the source of the CGI is available if you want that, but it's only a few lines of Python

15:03:38 <mdupont> ok

15:03:41 <mdupont> thats fine

15:03:44 <mdupont> i see what you are doing

15:03:57 <mdupont> i need to just set the value=value +1 in the buildin

15:04:03 <mdupont> i think math will allow that.

15:04:08 <mdupont> math:

15:45:29 <GregElin> Hey libby

15:45:44 <libby> libby(s) ;)

15:45:53 <libby> hi greg :)

15:45:57 <GregElin> how goes things?

15:46:11 <libby> not bad thanks - what about you?

15:46:51 <GregElin> Pretty good. I made it through a conference last week. Learned a few things regarding a conference photo album.

15:48:08 <libby> what sort of thing?

15:48:41 <GregElin> oops...phone call

15:49:05 <GregElin> take a look at http://fotonotes.net/TA04/

15:54:31 <bryce> GregElin: I was just thinking that using a different color for the dashed backgrounds would make the regions easier to spot. My vote is for border: 1px solid Green.

15:54:58 <bryce> not backgrounds... borders.

15:56:39 <GregElin> Cool with me.

15:56:45 * GregElin on phone...

16:09:11 * GregElin on hold on phone...can chat

16:09:32 <GregElin> You like green better than red, bryce?

16:11:18 <bryce> red is also okay... i was actually thinking of some lime green color, but basically something that's not likely to interfere with the image colors.

16:14:16 <bryce> for example, http://www.fotonotes.net/TA04/IMG_0052.FTW has black dashed borders, which are difficult to distinguish from the image underneath.

16:14:29 <GregElin> let me try something...

16:47:24 <ldodds>http://www.ldodds.com/conference/

16:47:25 <dc_rdfig> B: http://www.ldodds.com/conference/ from ldodds

16:47:33 <ldodds> B:|Conference Metadata Wiki

16:47:34 <dc_rdfig> Titled item B.

16:47:46 <ldodds> B:Exploring use of a Wiki to generate RDF data about conferences

16:47:46 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B1.

16:49:34 <ldodds> B:RDF data is scraped from the HTML generated by the Wiki markup

16:49:34 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B2.

16:50:33 <ldodds> B:Example RDF for [WWW2004|http://www.ldodds.com/conference/Wiki.jsp?page=WWW2004&asrdf=true]

16:50:33 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B3.

17:30:02 <DanC> B:sounds cool...

17:30:02 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B4.

17:30:08 <DanC> seen GRDDL, ldodds?

17:30:14 <DanC> .google GRDDL

17:30:15 <datum> GRDDL: http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec

17:30:15 <dc_rdfig> Label GRDDL not found.

17:30:48 <bryce> looks like the bots are fighting. :)

17:31:01 <DanC> B4:sounds cool... wonder if it uses [http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec|GRDDL]

17:31:01 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment B4.

17:31:43 <DanC> B:*grddl needs a nice friendly how-to pretty soon... but after that it'll be hard to move the profile in URI space... hmm...*

17:31:43 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B5.

17:45:10 <timbl> A Wiki list of already GRDDL'd applications would be a possible community-folrmer.

17:48:41 <timbl> I assume GRDDL has been chumped lots

17:53:00 <libby> !chump http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec

17:53:00 <wh4> http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/2004/01/17/2004-01-17.html

17:56:01 <timbl> cool.

17:56:05 <timbl> wh++

17:56:25 <timbl> Now, if only one could add more comments! :)

17:56:46 <libby> thanks...it also does a substring match but not so useful in this case

17:57:04 <libby> !chump ~swad-e

17:57:06 <wh4> http://www.asemantics.net/presos/SWAD-E/swad-e-rdfstore/

17:57:07 <wh4> http://www.ninebynine.org/SWAD-E/Scenario-HomeNetwork/Users.n3

17:57:08 <wh4> http://www.asemantics.net/presos/SWAD-E/SWADe-rdfstore.html

17:57:20 <libby> yeah, more comments would be cool

17:57:45 <timbl> The GRDDL abstract says "

17:57:46 <timbl> This document presents GRDDL, a mechanism for encoding RDF statements in XHTML and XML to be extracted by programs such as XSLT transformations.". I think that seels it short. It should say "GRDDL defines a single master algorithm by which RDF can be extrcetd by any web page whcih follows certain practice" OWTTE

17:58:04 <timbl> it sells itself short.

18:08:14 <chaalsNCE> "a single master algorithm"? is that different from "an algorithm"? presumably what is being sold short is particular properties of this algorithm (works for all kinds of things, ...)

18:15:04 <DanC> B:why does it want a cookie?

18:15:05 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B6.

18:15:06 <danbri> well, it tells you which XSLT computer program to try to run

18:17:13 <chaalsNCE> At the risk of repeating a discussion from not long ago, why does the URI of the profile matter?

18:17:57 <chaalsNCE> nah, /me doesn't really want to know.

18:18:14 * chaalsNCE gets back to making action items do the right things

18:19:43 <DanC> the URI of the profile matters because people need to put it in their XHTML documents. They might look at it and get scared when doing so. it's a possible barrier to adoption. Perhaps not one that I should worry much about, but I can't seem to stop worrying about it.

18:24:23 * chaalsNCE checks in some n3 and shell junk that makes RRSAgent action items almost work in iCal on the apple... (problem is lack of timestamps, plus using a nasty hack)

18:29:02 <DanC> chaalsNCE, you mentioned something about marking them done. how does that work?

18:29:39 <chaalsNCE> sh done.sh http://example.org/#3

18:30:09 <chaalsNCE> err, more useful if you put that somewhere (since it just generates an rdf statement)

18:30:12 <DanC> where does the output go?

18:30:29 <chaalsNCE> so that you can use it later to weed out items that are done.

18:30:32 <chaalsNCE> to stdout

18:30:39 <DanC> ok, my question was about the the 'somewhere'.

18:31:27 <DanC> sounds like you're still working on the overall workflow/dataflow; haven't solved all the whole lifecycle issues

18:31:41 <chaalsNCE> yeah, the somewhere is stdout at the moment. The connecting pieces together bit has some holes in it from the perspective of a user who doesn't like command lines :-)

18:31:44 <chaalsNCE> Yep.

18:32:15 <chaalsNCE> I am trying to write up the bits I have (the guts of it) so I can ask people what sort of scenarios seem like good ways for the thing to work.

18:32:51 <chaalsNCE> (I assume that stringing together commands isn't going to be a huge winner...)

18:33:28 <chaalsNCE> I also need to spend a bit more time in the cwm documentation to figure out some of the thoughts I have.

18:34:40 <chaalsNCE> like: how do I collect a list of sources and process it. I think it isn't very hard, but I have to actually write the stuff before it happens, and I am still learning.

18:35:00 * chaalsNCE goes on writing to try and chump something useful in 15 minutes...

18:39:39 <chaalsNCE> oh, I lied. done currently adds a line to a fixed file. Blerg.

18:39:54 <chaalsNCE> (so actions.sh could pick it up)

18:54:36 <chaalsNCE>http://www.w3.org/2004/01/16-Annotea-actions.rdf

18:54:36 <dc_rdfig> C: http://www.w3.org/2004/01/16-Annotea-actions.rdf from chaalsNCE

18:55:03 <chaalsNCE> C:Gathering Action items and connecting them to calendars

18:55:03 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C1.

18:55:13 <chaalsNCE> C|:Gathering Action items and connecting them to calendars

18:55:26 <DanC> you're getting warmer, chaalsNCE. ;-)

18:55:31 <chaalsNCE> C:|Gathering Action items and connecting them to calendars

18:55:31 <dc_rdfig> Titled item C.

18:55:55 <chaalsNCE> C1: RRSAgent is a modified logger bot that collects action items in RDF

18:55:55 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment C1.

18:56:37 <chaalsNCE> C: The idea is to be able to say whether there are outstanding items, given a list of RRSAgent-monitored IRC meetings.

18:56:37 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C2.

18:57:18 <chaalsNCE> C: Includes a way of marking an item as done, and some preliminary stuff for getting them into ical format (almost working...)

18:57:18 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C3.

18:57:33 <chaalsNCE> Bugger. How do I change the URI of what got chumped?

18:58:26 <chaalsNCE> C:= http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/200401/actions/

18:58:26 <dc_rdfig> Replaced URL of C.

19:00:01 <chaalsNCE> C: This is very sketchy - lots of life-cycle bits to clean up.

19:00:01 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C4.

19:00:18 <chaalsNCE> but it's helping me learn to use cwm... :-)

19:22:42 <libby_> libby_ is now known as libby

19:53:40 * Ankh waveth unto libby

19:58:16 * chaalsNCE doth wave unto all, with a flourishing bow to the obviously polite Ankh

20:11:34 <Ankh> :)

21:09:37 * Ankh says Yes to Mr Benn, for no other reason than the ability to say he's sexy

22:00:32 * chaalsNCE back later

22:50:32 * timbl find URL oesn't seem to be exported in toIcal.py for events

22:54:48 * timbl heads off

22:56:20 <D[a]vey> seeya timbl :)

22:56:33 <D[a]vey> D[a]vey is now known as Davey

22:56:35 <Davey> Davey is now known as D[a]vey

23:11:01 * libby waves belatedly to Ankh

23:16:22 <Ankh> heh, hi Libby :)

23:24:08 <libby> hia ankh. how are you?

23:24:26 <Ankh> good thanks, you!?

23:24:59 * Ankh still playing with orkut a little, even though it doesn't seem very useful as it stands

23:25:23 <D[a]vey> orkut... hmm

23:25:34 <Ankh> it rhymes with "uncut".

23:25:36 <D[a]vey> orkut has penetrated the PHP community as well.

23:25:57 <Ankh> seems to be popular in the gnome workd too

23:26:00 <libby> it's quite fun, though seeme to go in circles rather

23:26:31 <mattmcc> Debian's also well represented.

23:29:07 <Ankh> heh, maybe I should go over to #mandrake to balance things out a bit then :)

23:29:51 <Ankh> (and where's that Topic Maps channel?)

23:38:30 <danbri>http://www.mitre.org/news/digest/archives/2002/trim.html

23:38:31 <dc_rdfig> D: http://www.mitre.org/news/digest/archives/2002/trim.html from danbri

23:38:59 <danbri> D:|Mitre article about auto-translation facilities in Instant Messaging tools

23:39:00 <dc_rdfig> Titled item D.

23:39:15 * DanC noodles on how to upload my resume into linked in...

23:39:25 <DanC> hurdles: cookie authentication, not too bad.

23:39:33 <danbri> D:Amy Kazura just sent me info on this, wondered if might be of interest to RDFIG/SWIG...

23:39:33 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D1.

23:40:11 <DanC> mapping XHTML to RDF: no problem. mapping RDF to form fields... not too bad, except for splitting them accross posts

23:59:15 <mdupont> hey burtonator

23:59:39 <mdupont> hi danbri, DanC how you all doing today?