Semantic Web Interest Group IRC Chat Logs for 2004-07-15

06:39:15 <[GNU]> good morning

07:32:06 <chaalsCPH> chaalsCPH has changed the topic to: SWADE / CEN Multilingual workshop http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/events/200407-cph/ - (b)logs http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/ and http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/

07:33:47 <bengtf> bengtf is now known as bengtfCPH

07:41:56 <mof-alice> mof-alice is now known as mortenf

07:42:15 <mortenf>http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/events/200407-cph/

07:42:15 <dc_rdfig> A: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/events/200407-cph/ from mortenf

07:42:30 <mortenf> A:|Workshop on Metadata for a multilingual world

07:42:30 <dc_rdfig> Titled item A.

07:43:08 <mortenf> A:in Copenhagen, by SWAD-Europe and CEN/ISS MMI-DC

07:43:08 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A1.

07:43:10 <chaalsCPH> BLURB: Problem one - understsanding a menu

07:43:11 <dc_rdfig> B: Problem one - understsanding a menu from chaalsCPH

07:43:52 <chaalsCPH> B:How do we know what size things are?

07:43:53 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B1.

07:44:08 <mortenf> B:lunch will be at [http://www.nyhavnsfaergekro.dk/|Nyhavns Færgekro]

07:44:08 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B2.

07:44:18 <chaalsCPH> B:What is a "typical" meal?

07:44:18 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B3.

07:46:31 <[GNU]> is it by intention that dc_rdfig send me a privmsg?

07:47:08 <chaalsCPH> A:Present: [Charles McCathieNevile|http://www.w3.org/People/Charles] - [http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe|SWAD-E project]

07:47:08 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A2.

07:51:05 <IRChbj> IRChbj is now known as helle

07:51:55 <mortenf> A:also present [Morten Frederiksen|http://www.wasab.dk/morten/blog/]

07:51:56 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A3.

07:52:40 <chaalsCPH> A:[Dominique Hazaël-Massieux|http://www.w3.org/People/Dom] - W3C

07:52:40 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A4.

07:54:16 <chaalsCPH> Dom - works on systems development, which has been his interest in Semantic Web. Main projects are "TR automation" - automating the processing of the [http://www.w3.org/TR|W3C's technical reports] and the [W3C Glossary|http://www.w3.org/2003/Glossary].

07:54:54 <chaalsCPH> A:Eva Mendez - Universidad Carlos III, Madrid

07:54:55 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A5.

07:56:15 <eva_mendez> eva_mendez is now known as evamen

07:56:47 <chaalsCPH> Dom: TR automation. We have authors' names, which are mostly in latin characters but not always. If someone's name is in Japanese, how do we note that, and what do we put when we want to provide a reference in latin characters

07:57:03 <chaalsCPH>http://www.w3.org/2003/Glossary

07:57:04 <dc_rdfig> C: http://www.w3.org/2003/Glossary from chaalsCPH

07:57:11 <chaalsCPH> C:|W3C Glossary project

07:57:12 <dc_rdfig> Titled item C.

07:57:46 <chaalsCPH> C:There is an infrastructure for having translation, which is not switched on. Social management questions...

07:57:46 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C1.

07:58:47 <chaalsCPH> C:Based on [SKOS|http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/reports/thes/rdfthes.html] - concepts rather than terms are the basic unit, so a translation is not direct.

07:58:48 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C2.

07:59:14 <r12a> chaals, can you type people's names into the irc log please

07:59:20 <chaalsCPH> Morten Frederiksen - working with RSS, FOAF, and such things. Looking at user interfaces for RDF

07:59:38 * chaalsCPH reminds people that this channel is publicly archived

08:00:11 <chaalsCPH> ... names are a tricky thing to handle

08:01:21 <chaalsCPH> Eva Mendez: Works at UC3M in Madrid in Library Science. Interested in Dublin Core and RDF, maintains Spanish translations of documents

08:01:28 <chaalsCPH> ... interested in suppport for that

08:01:36 <chaalsCPH> A:Leif Andreson

08:01:37 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A6.

08:02:47 <chaalsCPH> Leif: working as library adviser, advise government on libraries. I am also manager of CEN/ISSS MMI-DC workshop.

08:03:31 <chaalsCPH> A6: Leif Andresen, [Danish National Library Authority|http://www.bs.dk]

08:03:31 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment A6.

08:05:14 <chaalsCPH> Leif, work in [DCMI|http://www.dublincore.org] advisory board. One of my responsibilities here is in metadata for the library, and interoperability in library stuff

08:05:40 <chaalsCPH> ... so also works in ISO groups, etc.

08:06:21 <chaalsCPH> ... Interested in international standardisaton, and also in international interoperability of metadata.

08:08:06 <chaalsCPH> A:Bengt Farre - work on [conept coding framework|http://dewey.computing.dundee.ac.uk]

08:08:06 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A7.

08:08:54 <chaalsCPH> Bengt: we had a goal to encode a number of languages, (our main use case was graphic symbols), so we are working with a SKOS-based system (our own vocabulary)

08:09:18 <bengtfCPH> similar to skos

08:09:53 <chaalsCPH> A:Helle Bjarnø

08:09:54 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A8.

08:10:21 <chaalsCPH> Helle - work mostly on accessibility, in [WAI Education and Outreach group|http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO]

08:10:57 <chaalsCPH> ... we are working on a glossary, that we can use to translate documents or offer it to people who are trying to understand the terms we use when they are new to the field.

08:11:22 <chaalsCPH> A:

08:11:23 <dc_rdfig>http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/events/200407-cph/

08:11:24 <dc_rdfig> Workshop on Metadata for a multilingual world

08:11:25 <dc_rdfig> (1:mortenf) in Copenhagen, by SWAD-Europe and CEN/ISS MMI-DC

08:11:26 <dc_rdfig> (2:chaalsCPH) Present: [Charles McCathieNevile|http://www.w3.org/People/Charles] - [http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe|SWAD-E project]

08:11:27 <dc_rdfig> (3:mortenf) also present [Morten Frederiksen|http://www.wasab.dk/morten/blog/]

08:11:28 <dc_rdfig> (4:chaalsCPH) [Dominique Hazaël-Massieux|http://www.w3.org/People/Dom] - W3C

08:11:29 <dc_rdfig> (5:chaalsCPH) Eva Mendez - Universidad Carlos III, Madrid

08:11:30 <dc_rdfig> (6:chaalsCPH) Leif Andresen, [Danish National Library Authority|http://www.bs.dk]

08:11:31 <dc_rdfig> (7:chaalsCPH) Bengt Farre - work on [conept coding framework|http://dewey.computing.dundee.ac.uk]

08:11:33 <dc_rdfig> (8:chaalsCPH) Helle Bjarnø

08:12:27 <chaalsCPH> A:[Richard Ishida|http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida] - W3C [Internationalisation Activity|http://www.w3.org/International]

08:12:27 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A9.

08:12:35 <chaalsCPH> Richard claims not to be an RDF expert

08:12:45 <chaalsCPH> A:Liddy Nevile

08:12:45 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A10.

08:13:31 <chaalsCPH> Liddy - working in the CEN/ISSS MMI-DC WS on metadata for accessibility. There is a question about scope of multilingual stuff - where does braille, symbolic language, sign language, etc fit in?

08:14:10 <chaalsCPH> ... Also trying to represent Tom Baker's problem of maintaining large collections of documents.

08:14:32 <chaalsCPH>http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/events/200407-cph/baker-pos

08:14:32 <dc_rdfig> D: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/events/200407-cph/baker-pos from chaalsCPH

08:14:58 <chaalsCPH> D:|Tom Baker's position paper for the workshop (although tom could not attend in person)

08:14:58 <dc_rdfig> Titled item D.

08:15:40 <chaalsCPH> ... also looking at maintaining a growing number of translations of Dublin Core - where some problems are actually to do with the structure of languages.

08:16:33 <chaalsCPH> ... interested in what is a good area for the Semantic Web - where is it most useful today? What are problems for the future and where do we go with them?

08:16:57 <chaalsCPH> ... Language is important, but so is culture...

08:17:32 <chaalsCPH> A:Hosein Askari - working in the National IT and Telecom agency in Denmark

08:17:32 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A11.

08:18:14 <chaalsCPH> Hosein, background in IT.

08:18:49 <chaalsCPH> ... workig in eGovernment and implementation of strategies (short term and long term)

08:19:27 <chaalsCPH> ... have worked with a lot of W3C standards - particularly from a technical point of view trying to implement things.

08:20:30 <chaalsCPH> ... We need a semantic web in government, so the question is how can we implement one - what actually works? What problems can we solve with a "partially semantic web"? We run into questions all the time about taxonomies, vocabularies, ...

08:21:37 <chaalsCPH> ... Multilingual problems are like cross-domain problems - people in different domains tend not to understand each others' vocabularies or taxonomies

08:22:28 <anselm> not sure i agree with that statement

08:22:35 <anselm> is this a session or a paper?

08:22:50 <chaalsCPH> It's introducing ourselves and our ideas...

08:22:55 <chaalsCPH> Workshop session.

08:24:44 <chaalsCPH> A:Matt May - [W3C Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)|http://www.w3.org/WAI]

08:24:45 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A12.

08:25:13 <anselm> it is a nicely turned metaphor but it clashes with my sense of language differences because it implies that one could make a language translator if one just knew how to indicate how each idea in one language mapped to an idea in another language.... and that doesn't seem like it is enough to 'translate' languages...

08:25:28 <chaalsCPH> Matt: Another side to the question is where you are speaking the "same language" and not actually communicating. There are cultural and experiential differences that can create barriers in communication.

08:25:46 <anselm> there is a kind of structure way above the actual semantics of individual terms

08:26:14 <anselm> ... just feels that way anyway... the metaphor is a nice quick intro however - although it maybe doesn't quite feel right after thinking about for a bit

08:26:15 <chaalsCPH> ... We are looking for ways to capture idioms, metaphors, identify sarcasm and humour so that we can note them for people who are not going to understand them.

08:26:47 <anselm> yeah it is nicely turned as said... may be good enough - diregarding what happens when thinking if truly true...

08:27:06 <anselm> oh

08:27:15 <sinjax> hi does a guy called jeen come here often?

08:27:21 <sinjax> works on sesame?

08:28:02 <chaalsCPH> ... mapping concepts is important. You can mark things in a document. Then where do you go? As we get cleverer transformations there is more information that we are collecting and using, to give users an ever-more personally relevant presentation of information,. Likewise, for controlling the environment

08:28:28 <chaalsCPH> ... People who cannot use their hands or eyes can use a remote control device that is increasingly powerful, to control more devices they need to use

08:28:37 <chaalsCPH> sinjax: Yep

08:29:12 <sinjax> i'll hang out then :)...i gave him some auto-generated RDF that seemed to hurt sesame

08:29:19 <sinjax> was wondering if he got any further with it

08:29:34 <domCPH> A: Charles MacCathie-Neville - [W3C SWAD EU|http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/]

08:29:35 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A13.

08:30:13 <domCPH> Chaals: have a backround of historian, learned old languages

08:30:25 <domCPH> ... trying to motivate implementation of SW technologies

08:30:29 <domCPH> ... by leading the way

08:30:41 <domCPH> ... SWAD EU has worked on various topics

08:30:53 <domCPH> ... SKOS, a thesauraus/glossary RDF Schema

08:31:07 <domCPH> ... we looked at how the Semantic Web can help accessibility

08:31:21 <domCPH> ... also work with Fundacion Sidar

08:32:11 <evamen> Chaals is the vicepresident of Sidar Foundation, really an Iberoamerican group interested on Accesibility http://www.sidar.org

08:32:11 <domCPH> ... makes me involved with various hispanian and South America languages

08:32:14 <bengtfCPH> hi libby

08:32:33 <domCPH> ... we do translations, try to move discussions between groups

08:32:59 <domCPH> ... esp. to go through language barriers

08:33:14 <domCPH> ... this takes a lof of time (e.g. translating stuff)

08:33:31 <domCPH> ... learning a language takes even more time though

08:33:44 <domCPH> ... interesting problems: names and addresses,

08:34:39 <domCPH> ... (every system I know can't handle this simple-looking problem correctly)

08:36:19 <domCPH> ... RDF following the typical English grammar (as said in the intro), but what about other languages -> cultural and linguistic influences on the way we describe information

08:37:07 * danbri_dna waves from bristol

08:37:19 <domCPH> ... how to indicate the quality of a translation (provenance, rating)

08:37:41 <evamen> Hi Danbri...

08:38:06 * bengtfCPH waves to bristol

08:38:11 <chaalsCPH> brief break.

08:38:45 * anselm waves back

08:39:01 * mortenf waves

08:40:07 <libby> heya bengtfCPH :)

08:40:09 <phenny> libby: 14 Jul 23:35Z <sbp> tell libby <crschmidt> phenny, tell libby h0gan is wondering if there's any kind of limit as to who can come to FOAF-galway. I have no idea, having no experience with this kind of thing :)

08:40:13 <phenny> libby: 00:10Z <crschmidt> tell libby h0gan is wondering if there's any kind of limit as to who can come to FOAF-galway. I have no idea, having no experience with this kind of thing :)

08:40:16 <phenny> libby: 00:10Z <crschmidt> tell libby if she gets that message twice, it's all sbp's fault

08:40:23 <libby> heheh

08:41:47 <libby> phenny, tell h0gan that if we get more than 50 for foafcamp we'll have to rethink a bit. Or maybe you meant in terms of your skills and interests: there are no restrictions there. come along!

08:41:49 <phenny> libby: I'll pass that on for you when h0gan is around.

08:41:53 <libby> thanks phenny

08:41:55 <phenny> No problem.

08:45:11 <mcmay_CPH> hi libby

08:45:38 <libby> hello matt!

08:47:07 <danbri_dna> foafcamp or foaf-galway? former is more hosting-constrained, isn't it?

08:47:20 <libby> heh oops

08:47:37 <libby> sorry, not fully awake

08:49:14 <libby> phenny, tell h0gan that libby got the two foaf events mixed up. foaf-galway probably limited to 150 people. but again no restriction on skills and interests, although we would prefer a 1-2 page position paper from people who are coming.

08:49:17 <phenny> libby: I'll pass that on for you when h0gan is around.

08:49:21 <libby> ta phenny

08:49:23 <phenny> You're welcome.

08:57:40 * libby wonders if I should have told crschmidt instead

08:57:43 <chaalsCPH> we're back

08:57:57 <mortenf> B:

08:57:58 <dc_rdfig> blurb

08:57:59 <dc_rdfig> Problem one - understsanding a menu

08:58:00 <dc_rdfig> (1:chaalsCPH) How do we know what size things are?

08:58:01 <dc_rdfig> (2:mortenf) lunch will be at [http://www.nyhavnsfaergekro.dk/|Nyhavns Færgekro]

08:58:02 <dc_rdfig> (3:chaalsCPH) What is a "typical" meal?

09:00:46 * libby waves to liddy :)

09:01:35 <Liddy> hi hi!

09:01:53 <chaalsCPH> === Scope, "use cases", scenarios

09:02:36 <danbri_dna> oh hey liddy :)

09:04:29 <chaalsCPH> 1,2,4 - describe our own use case, then get together in pairs to make richer use cases, then get together into 4's to make them even richer. Describing something that we want to do - the problems, the things that are important, etc.

09:05:01 <chaalsCPH> Liddy: Use cases are tricky because we can get caught by having too much of the solution in mind when we are trying to describe the problem...

09:06:45 <r12a> r12a is now known as r12a-CPH

09:08:06 <chaalsCPH> BLURB: A better personal information system

09:08:06 <dc_rdfig> E: A better personal information system from chaalsCPH

09:08:39 <bengtfCPH> BLURB: A concept translation system

09:08:39 <dc_rdfig> F: A concept translation system from bengtfCPH

09:08:41 <chaalsCPH> E:| I would like to be able to manage my contacts and calendar so they could talk to each other.

09:08:42 <dc_rdfig> Titled item E.

09:09:01 <mortenf> BLURB: A multilingual interface for entering and editing

09:09:02 <dc_rdfig> G: A multilingual interface for entering and editing from mortenf

09:09:26 <chaalsCPH> E: I use a mobile phone/PDA, a laptop, and the web. So I want to be able to get my data from all these places. Web as in "from a public kiosk"

09:09:26 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E1.

09:09:48 <chaalsCPH> E:| I would like to be able to manage my contacts and calendar so they could talk to each other.

09:09:49 <dc_rdfig> Titled item E.

09:10:03 <chaalsCPH> E: I want to be able to share some of the information with other people.

09:10:03 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E2.

09:10:19 <mortenf> G:An advanced version of something like [foaf-a-matic|http://www.ldodds.com/foaf/foaf-a-matic]

09:10:19 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G1.

09:10:24 <chaalsCPH> E: I want my calendar to understand where I am going to be, so it can look up people who are there.

09:10:24 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E3.

09:10:37 <mortenf> G:... driven (in part) by schemata

09:10:37 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G2.

09:11:02 <mortenf> G:... but most importantly being accessible to all

09:11:02 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G3.

09:11:05 <chaalsCPH> E: I would like it to be able to talk to other people's calendars, so if I am going to be in the same place as someone I am trying to meet, the calendars can let us know.

09:11:06 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E4.

09:11:23 <chaalsCPH> E: I need to be able to extend the information in arbitrary ways

09:11:23 <bengtfCPH> F: to send messages between some individuals that can be represented in various forms depending on their needs

09:11:24 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E5.

09:11:25 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F1.

09:12:24 <chaalsCPH> E: I want the name and address information to correctly encode people's names and addresses, which my current software doesn't manage nicely for different countries.

09:12:25 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E6.

09:13:00 <mortenf> G:Example: Maintaing a group website for a community, with events, people and places etc. being decribed "correctly"

09:13:01 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G4.

09:13:07 <chaalsCPH> E: I want different ways of indexing people, since some people I know by a nickname, others by one or other part of their real name.

09:13:08 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E7.

09:13:41 <chaalsCPH> E: I want my calendar to know that journeys start in one place and end in another, and that there may be a time-zone shift.

09:13:41 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E8.

09:14:09 <Liddy> I would like to be able to describe an object in one language and find it using another,including languages other than spoken languages

09:14:25 <chaalsCPH> E: I want nicer ways of managing the time that things happen in my calendar - knowing what is the "home timezone" of an event as well as what time it occurs wherever I happen to be.

09:14:25 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E9.

09:15:00 <mortenf> G:... in the prefered language(s) for each

09:15:00 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G5.

09:15:36 <bengtfCPH> F: and take into consideration differences between conceptual understanding

09:15:37 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F2.

09:15:59 <chaalsCPH> E: I want to be able to put in things from non-Gregorian calendars without having to know when they are (for example, I find it handy to know when Greek and Anglican Easter and Lent, and Ramadan are, because there are events that happen "every second anglican easter".

09:16:00 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E10.

09:17:29 <libby> [good luck buddy ;)]

09:17:45 * chaalsCPH Liddy, you can record things on the chump as follows: Either enter a URI or something that starts "BLURB: " (upper case)

09:18:35 <domCPH> BLURB:

09:18:36 <dc_rdfig> H: from domCPH

09:18:46 * chaalsCPH then you get back a label, like AD: You can use that to add comments, like AD:Comment or to add a title, AD:| This is the Title

09:18:52 <Arnia> Which airport is CPH?

09:18:59 <chaalsCPH> Arnia, Copenhagen

09:19:17 <domCPH> H:| formalizing mapping between words across languages

09:19:18 <dc_rdfig> Titled item H.

09:19:23 <Arnia> Ah, nice spot :)

09:19:29 * chaalsCPH you can also put a URI in, like [this will be a link|http://www.example.com]

09:19:40 <domCPH> H: I'd like to be able to describe translations in a machine-processable way, so that a computer can assist me and others in picking a term when translating a document; so that a computer can show me a list of translations available for one document

09:19:40 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H1.

09:19:41 <Arnia> btw, have any of you used Cyc or ThoughtTreasure?

09:19:49 * chaalsCPH this all comes out at http://rdfig.xmlhack.com

09:19:55 <mortenf> G:Also, presentation of e.g. search results with the right labels, including grammatical differences accross languages

09:19:55 <domCPH> H: I want to model the relationships between the various connotations of a word and its various translations in a given language; I want to model that a concept is defined in a given cultural/linguistic context (a referent context). I don't want to re-invent linguistic :)

09:19:55 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H2.

09:19:56 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G6.

09:20:12 <bengtfCPH> Arnia: thoughtTreasure and wordnet yes

09:20:22 <chaalsCPH> Arnia, I have used bits of Cyc. But when I tried to look at it myself instead of just copying bits from other people, it was too big to get my head around :-(

09:20:37 * Arnia is working on a mapping between an HPSG parser's output and RDF

09:20:42 <domCPH> H: (related questions: Mapping between languages are hard to model, even using informal languages; can they be modeled in a useful way in formal languages? is there an existing basis on which this modeling could be built? how fine-grained should this be? how much a theoretical concept can be shared across languages and cultures? is the notion of concept even acceptable out of a well defined area?)

09:20:42 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H3.

09:20:50 <bengtfCPH> HPSG ?

09:20:50 <danbri_dna> HPSG?

09:20:56 <danbri_dna> .g HPSG

09:20:57 <Arnia> This is in an effort to get Gnome Storage using RDF rather than XML :)

09:20:57 <[GNU]> Copenhagen seems to be some kind of gathering point

09:21:00 <phenny> HPSG: http://hpsg.stanford.edu/

09:21:00 <dc_rdfig> Label HPSG not found.

09:21:06 <Arnia> Head-driven Phrase Structure Grammar

09:21:21 <Arnia> A theory of phrasal and morpho- syntax

09:22:14 <bengtfCPH> have you looked at Link Grammars ?

09:22:16 <Arnia> Very computationally and cognitively plausible (as in you can parse with it quickly and get good results and there is evidence the brain parses using something very similar)

09:22:27 <chaalsCPH> BLURB: Trying to use a website, stuck because of a problem

09:22:28 <dc_rdfig> I: Trying to use a website, stuck because of a problem from chaalsCPH

09:23:09 <chaalsCPH> I: (Leif's use case). E.g. not enough rights, accessibility problem, etc. Looking for a way for websites to declare what they require, that is machine readable.

09:23:09 <dc_rdfig> Added comment I1.

09:23:43 <mortenf> G:basically giving users power to choose their preferred language

09:23:44 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G7.

09:24:32 <Arnia> bengtfCPH: Heard of them, not looked into them

09:25:18 <Arnia> bengtfCPH: Is it a unification theory?

09:26:05 <bengtfCPH> Arnia: it is way to describe natural language parsing where the tokens describe themselve where they can fit in

09:26:25 * danbri_dna skeptical about the cognitive plausibility angle, but it's probably still great for computing with

09:26:50 <bengtfCPH> arnia: and using a graphreduction to find the correct sentence structure

09:26:56 <chaalsCPH> BLURB: Hosein's use case

09:26:57 <dc_rdfig> J: Hosein's use case from chaalsCPH

09:27:09 <chaalsCPH> J: Don't want to collect different cross-language metadata in the same place - difficult to maintain, people get confused

09:27:09 <dc_rdfig> Added comment J1.

09:27:13 <evamen> BLURB: I would llike to have somothing like a multilingual knowledge base to help people on translations... multilingual dictionaries aren't enough in a global e-Society

09:27:13 <dc_rdfig> K: I would llike to have somothing like a multilingual knowledge base to help people on translations... multilingual dictionaries aren't enough in a global e-Society from evamen

09:27:16 <sh1m> morning gang

09:27:25 <Arnia> bengtfCPH: and is there a parser or grammar as complete as the PET parser and English Resource Grammar?

09:27:43 <chaalsCPH> J: Make a mechanism that can map information from one domain to another, without using compex deductions. A metadata structure for handling mappings.

09:27:44 <dc_rdfig> Added comment J2.

09:27:48 <bengtfCPH> arnia: there is a semi-complete english grammar

09:28:32 <sh1m> chaalsCPH, do you know how safe to use this vocab http://infomesh.net/2001/earl1.0/ is?

09:28:47 <bengtfCPH> arnia: http://www.link.cs.cmu.edu/link/

09:28:51 <Arnia> danbri_dna: HPSG can be parsed using just operations we know the brain is very good at - partial matching and merging

09:29:05 <Arnia> bengtfCPH: Looking... not too impressed so far :/

09:29:15 * Arnia downloads some papers

09:29:18 * CloCkWeRX loox @ the cmu page

09:30:01 <bengtfCPH> arnia: it typical US it is not easy to handle other languages

09:30:48 <Arnia> bengtfCPH: It strikes me as syntactocentric... I find syntactocentric approaches very distasteful

09:31:03 <bengtfCPH> arnia: myself is gearing towards finding the concepts behind and then do translation on that level

09:31:26 <bengtfCPH> arnia: yes it is trying to be syntactic instead of semantic

09:32:36 <Arnia> bengtfCPH: This grammar is very implausible to me, and that makes me distrust it

09:35:29 <Arnia> bengtfCPH: What are the advantages of link grammar over other grammars?

09:35:55 <chaalsCPH> E:

09:35:56 <dc_rdfig> blurb

09:35:56 <dc_rdfig> I would like to be able to manage my contacts and calendar so they could talk to each other.

09:35:58 <dc_rdfig> (1:chaalsCPH) I use a mobile phone/PDA, a laptop, and the web. So I want to be able to get my data from all these places. Web as in "from a public kiosk"

09:35:59 <dc_rdfig> (2:chaalsCPH) I want to be able to share some of the information with other people.

09:36:01 <dc_rdfig> (3:chaalsCPH) I want my calendar to understand where I am going to be, so it can look up people who are there.

09:36:01 <dc_rdfig> (4:chaalsCPH) I would like it to be able to talk to other people's calendars, so if I am going to be in the same place as someone I am trying to meet, the calendars can let us know.

09:36:02 <dc_rdfig> (5:chaalsCPH) I need to be able to extend the information in arbitrary ways

09:36:03 <dc_rdfig> (6:chaalsCPH) I want the name and address information to correctly encode people's names and addresses, which my current software doesn't manage nicely for different countries.

09:36:05 <dc_rdfig> (7:chaalsCPH) I want different ways of indexing people, since some people I know by a nickname, others by one or other part of their real name.

09:36:08 <dc_rdfig> (8:chaalsCPH) I want my calendar to know that journeys start in one place and end in another, and that there may be a time-zone shift.

09:36:11 <dc_rdfig> (9:chaalsCPH) I want nicer ways of managing the time that things happen in my calendar - knowing what is the "home timezone" of an event as well as what time it occurs wherever I happen to be.

09:36:14 <dc_rdfig> (10:chaalsCPH) I want to be able to put in things from non-Gregorian calendars without having to know when they are (for example, I find it handy to know when Greek and Anglican Easter and Lent, and Ramadan are, because there are events that happen "every second anglican easter".

09:36:17 <domCPH> Liddy, http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/

09:36:37 <bengtfCPH> arnia: not sure;

09:37:53 <Arnia> bengtfCPH: It doesn't seem to be doing the most fundamental function of syntax, turning a linear stream into a graph of functional relations (using the web parser)

09:38:05 <Arnia> bengtfCPH: Which leads me to wonder 'what's the point?' :)

09:38:20 <bengtfCPH> arnia: its fast ? thats the only thing

09:39:05 <Arnia> bengtfCPH: HPSG parsers are fast nowadays, certainly fast enough... and they produce something actually useful :)

09:39:05 * bengtfCPH afk for grp work

09:39:24 <bengtfCPH> arnia: like UNL ?

09:39:49 <Arnia> UNL?

09:40:55 <r12a-CPH> BLURB: I would like my team page to automatically present information in the time zone of the viewer. To enable that, I would like a standard way for people to describe their preferred languages, location, time zone, form of address, preferred format (html/xml),

09:40:55 <r12a-CPH> current platforms, etc. so that information can be presented to them in an appropriate fashion.

09:40:56 <dc_rdfig> L: I would like my team page to automatically present information in the time zone of the viewer. To enable that, I would like a standard way for people to describe their preferred languages, location, time zone, form of address, preferred format (html/xml), from r12a-CPH

09:41:30 <r12a-CPH> L: current platforms, etc. so that information can be presented to them in an appropriate fashion.

09:41:31 <dc_rdfig> Added comment L1.

09:44:00 <chaalsCPH> r12a - want to describe things like "I speak english, then french" separately from "I am currently working on a windows XP platform" and "I am currently in copenhagen"

09:44:54 <chaalsCPH> Morten - want to say that you are a vegetarian, so when you book a plane ticket you get the right thing.

09:45:06 <chaalsCPH> ... think yours is a prerequisite for what I want.

09:46:09 <danbri_dna> me too re vegetarian use case

09:46:12 * sh1m pokes chaals a bit

09:49:36 <chaalsCPH> ouch!

09:50:27 <sh1m> chaalsCPH, so answer my q then ;)

09:50:38 <sh1m> chaalsCPH, anyway you are abig fella you'll live

09:53:41 * chaalsCPH missed the question

09:57:00 <chaalsCPH> so I want to describe people, and do something with the information (collect it so I don't have to rely on my memory), and r12a wants to describe them and do something different (send the relevant bits of the decsription to get back something that suits you)

09:57:32 <chaalsCPH> I want an open-ended description, because I don't know in advance what I need

09:57:52 <chaalsCPH> and we need to figure out who you trust with the information

09:58:20 <chaalsCPH> Morten, I think my use case is similar, except instead of sending it acrtoss the web you use it locally.

09:58:32 <sh1m> chaalsCPH, do you know how safe to use this vocab http://infomesh.net/2001/earl1.0/ is?

09:58:58 <chaalsCPH> I want to do that too - where I know someone speaks a given language, I want to send them a copy of something in that language (I have documents, tools, etc that exist in multiple languages)

09:59:47 <Arnia> sh1m: Thinking of using it on Odeon? :p

09:59:48 <chaalsCPH> sh1m dunno. I would use the vocab at http://www.w3.org/TR/EARL10 instead - it is more up to date. (Oh, that is actually what Hera does use :-)

09:59:58 <sh1m> aha

10:00:06 * sh1m didn't even find that

10:00:22 <sh1m> Google why hast thou forsaken me

10:02:09 <chaalsCPH> I want to identify people in different ways - sometimes I use their name, sometimes a nickname. To contact them I can use a direct method (email) or the fact they work somewhere

10:02:36 <sh1m> chaalsCPH, I still intend to do some work on composite UIDs

10:02:58 <chaalsCPH> r12a - yes, but cntext is important. There is the way you want to look for someone- what you call them - and the way they want to be addressed (formally or informally, which might be different for different cases)

10:03:04 <sh1m> chaalsCPH, I really think it would be useful, the trick is to work out how to make it actually unique in a given domain

10:04:35 <chaalsCPH> r12a - there is a question of how you address people according to where they are, how well you know them...

10:13:11 <chaalsCPH> r12a - when you send a letter to someone in Russian you use a different form of their name.

10:13:21 <chaalsCPH> ... (because it has case)

10:14:07 <Arnia> Oh, and the form of name you use depends on whether the name is used in the first half or the last half of the sentence :/

10:17:26 <mchncl> i get it... so that is why it is such a hell to keep track of all the characters in crime and punishment! :)

10:19:41 <Arnia> :)

10:20:21 <eaon> gmorning joe

10:20:37 <libby>http://staff.pisoftware.com/dwood/index.html

10:20:37 <dc_rdfig> M: http://staff.pisoftware.com/dwood/index.html from libby

10:21:11 <libby> M:|David Wood's homepage (new co-chair of Semantic Web Best practices working group)

10:21:11 <dc_rdfig> Titled item M.

10:21:45 <libby> M:+[http://staff.pisoftware.com/images/people/dave_w_0.jpg|David's Picture]

10:21:45 <dc_rdfig> Added comment M1.

10:21:53 <libby> M:watch closely :)

10:21:54 <dc_rdfig> Added comment M2.

10:25:54 <mortenf> chaals: in 95% of the cases, a sensible default is enough, but in the remaining 5%, flexibility is very important

10:27:04 <libby> M2:""

10:27:04 <dc_rdfig> Deleted comment M2.

10:40:03 <sh1m> chaalsCPH, do you think one could for example have an earl statement against an assertor using cofidence level to show reliability

10:40:10 <sh1m> or something in that vein

11:02:21 <Emmy> Good morning :)

11:59:48 <[GNU]-> hello all

11:59:54 <[GNU]-> any hints to rdf driven wikis?

12:00:25 <jsled> [GNU]-: Hmm. there's Rhizome. And ... Platapus?

12:00:42 <[GNU]-> wow... what a name

12:01:38 <jsled> I've been thinking about writing a TWiki plugin that basically does guided form-filling/simple DB based on OWL+RDFS+XSD ...

12:01:41 <[GNU]->http://rx4rdf.liminalzone.org/Rhizome

12:01:42 <dc_rdfig> N: http://rx4rdf.liminalzone.org/Rhizome from [GNU]-

12:01:58 <[GNU]-> N:| Rhizome - Wiki and RDF

12:01:58 <dc_rdfig> Titled item N.

12:02:04 <[GNU]-> N:->rdf,wiki

12:02:05 <dc_rdfig> Set keywords for N.

12:05:05 <chaalsCPH> sh1m, yeah, but it is hard because confidence levels aren't very interoperable as a rule...

12:05:39 <chaalsCPH> It would work locally though. If enough people use it you'll work out how to do the interoperability after a while :-)

12:05:50 <chaalsCPH> back from lunch

12:07:01 <[GNU]-> jsled: have you played arround with Phizome?

12:07:03 <[GNU]-> Rhizome

12:07:11 <jsled> I have not, no.

12:10:10 <chaalsCPH> BLURB: combining some stuff from chaals, Morten, R12A (Richard Ishida)

12:10:10 <dc_rdfig> O: combining some stuff from chaals, Morten, R12A (Richard Ishida) from chaalsCPH

12:10:22 <chaalsCPH> O: Two main things we wanted to do - describing people

12:10:23 <dc_rdfig> Added comment O1.

12:11:07 <chaalsCPH> O: and reacting to those descriptions. The descriptions had a number of aspects - things that were permanent, some things changed a lot. This is a continuum.

12:11:08 <dc_rdfig> Added comment O2.

12:11:35 <chaalsCPH> O: There are descriptions that are contextual. For example chaals calls his Mother "Mum" but other people call her Liddy.

12:11:35 <dc_rdfig> Added comment O3.

12:12:35 <chaalsCPH> O: And things change according to language and location - Spanish names and japanese names are structurally different. We want to be able to map them into systems that are not aware of the difference, but to be able to keep the different structures for doing things correctly.

12:12:35 <dc_rdfig> Added comment O4.

12:13:31 * em waves to all at Workshop participants; looks for registration list

12:14:39 <libby> it's on rdfig.xmlhack.com em

12:14:43 <libby> at the bottom of the page

12:14:57 <danbri_dna> hi em

12:15:04 * em found it comming in to irc late... :) thanks for pointer libby!

12:16:24 * em waves back to danbri_dna

12:16:35 <chaalsCPH> O: We also want to be able to decide how we share the information - what we give to whom (will I tell Richard's website about me? Will I share my phone number with my Mum?)

12:16:36 <dc_rdfig> Added comment O5.

12:19:03 * em wonders if workshop participants have input from http://dublincore.org/dcregistry/ implementation, lessons learned, etc ... see's Tom Baker's paper listed on program but recalls Tom on vacation now

12:19:09 <mortenf> liddy: is there a limit to how much we want to have the system(s) do

12:19:25 <em> .me wonders if workshop participants have input from http://dublincore.org/dcregistry/ implementation, lessons learned, etc ... see's Tom Baker's paper listed on program but recalls Tom on vacation now

12:19:26 <chaalsCPH> O: And we don't have one piece of information that can be used to identify each entry - there is no unique.

12:19:26 <dc_rdfig> Added comment O6.

12:21:14 <chaalsCPH> O: ... key.

12:21:15 <dc_rdfig> Added comment O7.

12:21:57 <danbri_dna> eric, are you typing ".me" instead of "/me" on purpose? (#rdfig logs /me emotes too fwiw)

12:22:00 <chaalsCPH> I don't think there is a limit to the things we are allowed to want. I think it is clear that at some point going from requirements to implementation things will be dropped.

12:22:12 <evamen> em, yes we have seen Tom's position paper but he isn't here in CPH

12:22:14 <OliB> oh god. another serialization foramat ..... (just saw RxML)

12:22:42 <em> (#rdfig logs /me emotes too fwiw) ... on too many ircs with bots, forgets which does what :)

12:23:38 <em> evamen, i suspect DOM has swapped in similar lessons learned implementing SKOS as Harry Wagner has implementing the DCMI registry

12:23:51 <chaalsCPH> Leif starts a work of art on the whiteboard...

12:24:03 <danbri_dna> .g "don't call me DOM"

12:24:07 <phenny> "don't call me DOM": http://people.w3.org/~dom/

12:24:13 <danbri_dna> :)

12:24:51 * chaalsCPH wonders if .me is a bot that sets em's emotions...

12:24:56 <chaalsCPH> .me smiles

12:25:06 <em> .me smiles back

12:25:16 <chaalsCPH> .me relaxes and is stressfree

12:25:52 <bkdelong> .me shakes head

12:26:16 <[GNU]-> ahm.. if you are talking about languages at the workshop, is "topic maps" a language also? dont we have the same problems with xtm/topic maps like we have it with different natural languages?

12:26:19 <em> .me will leave workshop attendants alone to get back to work and resume lurker mode wishing best of luck

12:26:32 * chaalsCPH hopes that this isn't a bot that sets em's state

12:26:59 <chaalsCPH> BLURB: What Eva and Leif are looking for

12:27:00 <dc_rdfig> P: What Eva and Leif are looking for from chaalsCPH

12:27:42 <chaalsCPH> P: A person knows some stuff about themselves, a particular piece of information has metadata.

12:27:43 <dc_rdfig> Added comment P1.

12:28:01 <chaalsCPH> P: How can we put these things together, so the person finds what they are looking for?

12:28:01 <dc_rdfig> Added comment P2.

12:29:01 <chaalsCPH> [GNU], Do you mean that xtm/rdf compatibility is the same kind of problem as french/english compatibility, or something else?

12:29:30 <[GNU]-> chaalsCPH: ja, exactly

12:29:37 <[GNU]-> isnt it? or...

12:29:53 <danbri_dna> I think they're essentially different problems, although there are a few similar issues

12:29:56 <chaalsCPH> P: The problem is that you cannot rely on the people creating the site to provide the kind of metadata that you need.

12:29:57 <dc_rdfig> Added comment P3.

12:30:07 <danbri_dna> natural and machine languages have very different characteristics

12:30:39 <[GNU]-> danbri: ok, just wanted to scope the workshop and if it tangets that xtm/rdf issue

12:31:00 <chaalsCPH> [GNU] - will ask the question of whether it is in scope...

12:31:36 <[GNU]-> :)

12:32:19 <[GNU]-> hmm. this tangetns that is pretty mathematical... what is better english? :)

12:32:29 <chaalsCPH> Hosein, the metadata should be collected in a way that allows the user to find it from the object. This metadata might appear in a language too, so we need to be able to handle that without having an infinite explosion of metadata.

12:32:59 <chaalsCPH> r12a, so what happens when you have several indexers describing a resource, and they say conflicting things?

12:36:28 <chaalsCPH> BLURB: Eva and Leif again...

12:36:29 <dc_rdfig> Q: Eva and Leif again... from chaalsCPH

12:36:40 <chaalsCPH> Q:|Catalogues and libraries

12:36:41 <dc_rdfig> Titled item Q.

12:37:17 <chaalsCPH> Q:When librarians make Marc records they record lots of stuff they don't show in the public catalog. A lot of what they do show is nearly the same as Dublin Core

12:37:17 <dc_rdfig> Added comment Q1.

12:37:53 <chaalsCPH> Q:Likewise, the most commonly used little bit of ISO19115 is pretty much what is in Dublin Core.

12:37:54 <dc_rdfig> Added comment Q2.

12:38:35 <sh1m> chaalsCPH, I was thinking of using FOAF to let people talk about their confidence levels in assessments

12:38:46 <chaalsCPH> Q: and so on for other metadata standards, where the information "for the public" is a small part of what the professional users want, and the small part is basically Dublin Core.

12:38:46 <dc_rdfig> Added comment Q3.

12:38:48 <sh1m> chaalsCPH, or something, like a peer review thing

12:39:19 <bkdelong> Sounds similar to golbeck's Trust schema

12:39:28 <sh1m> probably

12:39:41 <[GNU]-> maybe a general peer review thing would be good, so we could review people (e.g. trust), software projects, ....

12:39:45 <bkdelong> trust.mindswap.org]

12:39:57 <chaalsCPH> Q: You cant' translate everything in the "professional's part" between Marc and ISO - which is OK because they are not the same user groups.

12:39:58 <dc_rdfig> Added comment Q4.

12:40:15 <bkdelong> My problem with Trust as it currently stands is that people can easily see how you rate/trust them.

12:40:48 <[GNU]-> bkdelong: thats just fair

12:40:51 <chaalsCPH> Q: I don't think I can see a user requirement for being able to map the complex stuff across.

12:40:52 <dc_rdfig> Added comment Q5.

12:41:14 <[GNU]-> bkdelong: if you dont want that, gpgencryption may cure ?

12:41:23 <bkdelong> And with certain people, I'm not sure I want them to know how much or how little I trust them. I'd rather be able to query a service and see that Frog is trusted at an average of 7 out of 10 by people who you trust between 5-10 out of 10

12:41:47 <bkdelong> [GNU]- perhaps...

12:42:09 <[GNU]-> bkdelong: you could encrypt your trust just for that service, and the service will act as you said

12:42:14 <chaalsCPH> Q: But there seems to be agreement on the "element names" for the common (dublin core) bit, but there isn't so much agreement on the semantics, and so there isn't always interoperability. Language differences are one of the barriers across which the interoperability can be limited.

12:42:15 <dc_rdfig> Added comment Q6.

12:42:52 <[GNU]-> ... but where is that service? i guess it needs to be done, doesnt it?

12:43:17 <sh1m> The problem with anonimity is that if i transparent to a crawler to use the information it is transparent to everyone

12:43:35 <[GNU]-> sh1m depens on what the crawler will expose

12:43:40 <bkdelong> [GNU]- Here's the service: http://trust.mindswap.org/trustSubmit.shtml

12:43:49 <sh1m> [GNU]-, I can pretend to be a crawler

12:43:51 <[GNU]-> but by bruteforcing all information... ok, it is nearly public

12:44:26 <bkdelong> and the keys to encrypt your FOAF to: http://foaf.dk/hosting/

12:45:19 <sh1m> bkdelong, that is the only was to use a trusted proxy, but then it depends on how much you trust the proxy

12:45:32 <bkdelong> right...

12:45:34 <mortenf> Q:chaals: sometimes it's necessary to make mappings at the lowest level - where possible - could be critical

12:45:34 <dc_rdfig> Added comment Q7.

12:46:12 <chaalsCPH> Hosein, sometimes you want to know about stuff that is language-dependent. Other times you don't care about the language.

12:46:21 <bkdelong> I'm hoping that besides giving trust levels to people, you can give trust levels to services and even give trust levels to objects - ie I trust Frog, Toad but not salamander with this JPG

12:47:18 <[GNU]-> :)

12:47:44 <sh1m> bkdelong, that is possible with encryption for example by encrypting to specific keys

12:48:00 <sh1m> bkdelong, but then you get into trusted key issues and key repository issues

12:48:01 <bkdelong> right

12:48:15 <bkdelong> But it will have to be relative dynamiic and seamless to make it worthwhile

12:48:16 <sh1m> the problem with security et al is you cant assume anything

12:48:42 <bkdelong> I want to be able to make these designations with some sort of pulldown list or checkbox via a form and have the system encrypt for me

12:49:07 <sh1m> bkdelong, that is entirely possible but you would need a secure method for identifying pgp keys

12:49:32 <bkdelong> Well, if a person signs their FOAF

12:49:32 <sh1m> MIT have a nice key repository but do you trust that your packets aren't intercepted? :P

12:50:02 <[GNU]-> ahm.. sh1m but if not to assume that keys are ok... what else is left to trust on?

12:50:06 <sh1m> I think the solution is something like DNS, to have a set of hard coded keys and a lookup service

12:50:22 <bkdelong> and their foaf contains a PGP key as well, wouldn't that work? Validate the FOAF against the signature and then the key is valid to use?

12:50:41 <sh1m> so you code to those keys and then look up and you can check for tampering

12:51:14 <bkdelong> right - like an MD5

12:52:11 <[GNU]-> hmm.. sh1m but a central system like dns needs to be driven by some organisation or some people

12:52:25 <bkdelong> not necessarily

12:52:26 <[GNU]-> aint that against the distributed idea of say... faof?

12:52:40 <bkdelong> But there is a peoplesDNS in the works

12:53:00 <CaptSolo> i think a centralised system is against the distributed way

12:53:03 <jsled> bkdelong: to be specific, all you've said above is that the key present in the file was the same one used to sign the file.

12:53:16 <jsled> both the key and the signature could be replaced by a MITM.

12:53:25 <bkdelong> MITM?

12:53:28 <jsled> which gets back to "do you trust the data-source?"

12:53:31 <jsled> Man In The Middle

12:53:42 <bkdelong> riiight.

12:53:45 <bkdelong> So what then?

12:53:53 <jsled> turtles all the way down!

12:53:55 <jsled> :)

12:54:16 <jsled> That list of root certs that lives in your browser.

12:54:42 <jsled> or something analagous-but-better like sh1m is saying.

12:57:54 <chaalsCPH> BLURB: Dom and Helle - glossaries for translation

12:57:55 <dc_rdfig> R: Dom and Helle - glossaries for translation from chaalsCPH

12:58:31 <crschmidt> heh.

12:58:32 <chaalsCPH> R: When you describe a concept, and give a definition, you need to adapt the definition to the audience (rough idea for beginner, detailed for a professional...)

12:58:32 <dc_rdfig> Added comment R1.

12:58:37 <crschmidt> Turtles all the way down.

12:58:59 <jsled> More apt to security than most things. Security and Religion, I guess.

13:00:17 <chaalsCPH> R: If you have a set of concepts and describe them in english you expect someone to map those to other languages. But in some cases they don't map neatly because of the structure and cultural context. So should there be a single authorised translation, should you authorise several translations, ...?

13:00:18 <dc_rdfig> Added comment R2.

13:01:18 <chaalsCPH> R: Can we use these glossaries to help automating translation? Hand our glossary to an automatic translator?

13:01:18 <dc_rdfig> Added comment R3.

13:01:39 <chaalsCPH> R: Can we look for a translation of a document?

13:01:40 <dc_rdfig> Added comment R4.

13:03:04 <chaalsCPH> R: r12a - if you want to translate "OK" on a dialogue box in a system, there are contextual differences. In spanish, windows uses "si", Mac uses something else, Unix something else again.

13:03:04 <dc_rdfig> Added comment R5.

13:03:56 <chaalsCPH> BLURB: Bengt and Matt - making translations

13:03:56 <dc_rdfig> S: Bengt and Matt - making translations from chaalsCPH

13:04:25 <chaalsCPH> S: Problem is that many concept databases don't contain everything you need. Similar problems with cultural context.

13:04:25 <dc_rdfig> Added comment S1.

13:05:46 <chaalsCPH> S:How does a person learn when doing translation? How do we track what they have learned? People learn stuff that can be a local dictionary, and that maps to a larger dictionary...

13:05:47 <dc_rdfig> Added comment S2.

13:08:32 <chaalsCPH> S: If you have a dictionary that you are using, and you find a term that is outside that dictionary, can you find an explanation in terms of the local dictionary? Or can you decide that the user has acquired a new term that can be added to their dictionary.

13:08:33 <dc_rdfig> Added comment S3.

13:09:35 <chaalsCPH> S: You may have a child who has never encoutered a term before, but will learn it when they meet it, or a person who has to have the same term explained every time they encounter it.

13:09:36 <dc_rdfig> Added comment S4.

13:11:44 <chaalsCPH> O: We want to pass the information around, labelled according to what is useful for the person we are passing it to (ideally, we know because we store that information and use it in various local applications)

13:11:45 <dc_rdfig> Added comment O8.

13:12:55 <chaalsCPH> BLURB: Hosein and Liddy - looking for meaning across languages.

13:12:55 <dc_rdfig> T: Hosein and Liddy - looking for meaning across languages. from chaalsCPH

13:13:49 <chaalsCPH> T: What is important for finding the meaning of a new word (e.g. in a new language) is its context

13:13:50 <dc_rdfig> Added comment T1.

13:14:22 <chaalsCPH> T:We want to have some more relations to describe abstract structures

13:14:23 <dc_rdfig> Added comment T2.

13:16:43 <chaalsCPH> T: So we can use these to work out ways of putting new words into contexts that map to ours. How?

13:16:44 <dc_rdfig> Added comment T3.

13:19:48 <chaalsCPH> Liddy: is there a metagrammar for the things we are looking at? Languages don't share a grammar, but if there were a metagrammar for talking about them, we might get closer to making this work.

13:26:46 <chaalsCPH>http://www.w3.org/TR/md-policy-design

13:26:47 <dc_rdfig> U: http://www.w3.org/TR/md-policy-design from chaalsCPH

13:26:58 <chaalsCPH> U:|Eskimo Snow and Scottish Rain

13:26:58 <dc_rdfig> Titled item U.

13:27:53 <chaalsCPH> U:A paper by Joseph Reagle, on synax and semantics, and different places that interoperability can break

13:27:53 <dc_rdfig> Added comment U1.

13:28:49 <bparsia> bparsia is now known as bijan

13:29:51 <chaalsCPH> bengt: using wordnet as a starting point for a database of concepts doesn't always work - specifically where there aren't concepts that an english word accurately names

13:30:56 <chaalsCPH> Liddy: I have some documents that must be available to everybody so they can use them. What do they need to do?

13:33:31 <chaalsCPH> break ...

13:53:34 <eaon> hey LeoS

14:07:13 <chaalsCPH> C:

14:07:13 <dc_rdfig>http://www.w3.org/2003/Glossary

14:07:14 <dc_rdfig> W3C Glossary project

14:07:15 <dc_rdfig> (1:chaalsCPH) There is an infrastructure for having translation, which is not switched on. Social management questions...

14:07:16 <dc_rdfig> (2:chaalsCPH) Based on [SKOS|http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/reports/thes/rdfthes.html] - concepts rather than terms are the basic unit, so a translation is not direct.

14:07:39 <chaalsCPH> C:Dom demonstrates the glossary. Developed by an intern at W3C.

14:07:39 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C3.

14:08:44 <chaalsCPH> C:The idea is to take the glossaries out of all the W3C specifications, and combine them. You have lots of terms entered into the system, extracted from the published specification, and turned into RDF.

14:08:45 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C4.

14:09:18 <chaalsCPH> C:Each term is assumed to refer to a concept, and is a mapping into english. There is also a definition (in english).

14:09:19 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C5.

14:09:58 <chaalsCPH> C: Select a specification from the list, and it gives the terms used.

14:09:59 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C6.

14:10:05 <bengtfCPH> http://www.cfilt.iitb.ac.in/convergence03/all%20data/paper%20035-396.pdf something about UNL

14:10:05 <dc_rdfig> V: http://www.cfilt.iitb.ac.in/convergence03/all%20data/paper%20035-396.pdf from bengtfCPH

14:10:26 <chaalsCPH> C:You can search for all instances of a term.

14:10:27 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C7.

14:11:18 <chaalsCPH> C: e.g. [user agent|http://www.w3.org/2003/glossary/All/?keywords=user+agent] is defined 11 times.

14:11:19 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C8.

14:11:42 <chaalsCPH> C:So you can get 11 definitions for a term, to help you decide how to transate it.

14:11:43 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C9.

14:13:59 <chaalsCPH> C:Uses the SKOS schema from SWAD-E

14:14:05 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C10.

14:15:06 <chaalsCPH> C:You can add translations - terms and definitions in different languages, but this is turned off for social reasons.

14:15:30 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C11.

14:16:08 <chaalsCPH> C:You don't assert that you can translate the term the same way all the time, you say that two or three terms (maybe in different languages) are labels for a particular concept.

14:16:29 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C12.

14:17:17 <chaalsCPH> C:You can see where a term is used in definitions.

14:17:20 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C13.

14:17:42 <chaalsCPH> C13:You can see where a term is used in definitions. It is not very clever - it just does text matching.

14:17:43 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment C13.

14:17:51 <mortenf> V:|Something about UNL

14:17:52 <dc_rdfig> Titled item V.

14:18:49 <chaalsCPH> C:We would like to add functionality for linking concepts - for example "browser" is a label for a concept which is narrower than the concept labelled "user agent"

14:18:50 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C14.

14:20:17 <LeoS> is jeremy carroll somewhere here?

14:21:11 <chaalsCPH> C:Uses XHTML embedded in RDF (because you can do that in RDF syntax).

14:21:11 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C15.

14:21:44 <chaalsCPH> Morten: If you translate "User Agent" you have to pick which source you mean?

14:39:08 <asdfghj> asdfghj is now known as GNU][

14:56:23 <GNU][> GNU][ is now known as [GNU]

15:01:12 <chaalsCPH>http://134.36.34.102:8080/ccf/

15:01:12 <dc_rdfig> W: http://134.36.34.102:8080/ccf/ from chaalsCPH

15:01:22 <chaalsCPH> W:|Concept Coding Framework

15:01:23 <dc_rdfig> Titled item W.

15:04:36 <evamen> Bengtf explains http://dewey.computing.dundee.ac.uk/ccf/cop/ (Code of practice of CCF)

15:04:40 <chaalsCPH> W:Bengt demonstrates it. The demo shhows how 54 concepts are encoded, with representations in english and 3 different symbol sets

15:04:40 <dc_rdfig> Added comment W1.

15:05:15 <chaalsCPH> W:The CCF Pad allows you to create a message from the available terms, and change the representations.

15:05:15 <dc_rdfig> Added comment W2.

15:10:41 <chaalsCPH> Chaals: How is this different from SKOS?

15:11:39 <chaalsCPH> Bengt: (err, it isn't anymore - SKOS changed and now allows the same structures)

15:12:26 <chaalsCPH> Morten: Why are there two sections of RDF - one for each language, not just labels with xml:lang ?

15:12:38 <chaalsCPH> Bengt: 'cos we programed the code that way...

15:20:48 * mortenf and everyone else leaves for dinner at riz raz...

15:37:41 <chaalsCPH> bye folks

16:06:35 <`flaw> `flaw is now known as flaw

16:18:55 <em>http://www.betaversion.org/~stefano/linotype/

16:18:56 <dc_rdfig> X: http://www.betaversion.org/~stefano/linotype/ from em

16:19:12 <em> X:|An no-nonsense guide to Semantic Web specs for XML people (Part I)

16:19:14 <dc_rdfig> Titled item X.

16:19:31 <crschmidt> I think we had that yesterday ;)

16:19:35 <em> X:by Stefano Mazzocch

16:19:36 <dc_rdfig> Added comment X1.

16:20:03 <dajobe> yeah, it was funny yesterday too

16:20:03 * em talking stefano now... seems to be behind at least a day :(

16:20:16 * em sorry for the dups! :)

16:20:17 <crschmidt>http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/2004/07/14/2004-07-14.html#1089835822.966532

16:20:18 <dc_rdfig> Y: http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/2004/07/14/2004-07-14.html#1089835822.966532 from crschmidt

16:20:31 <crschmidt> Y:| oops.

16:20:34 <dc_rdfig> Titled item Y.

16:20:38 <crschmidt> Y: didn't mean to chump the chump, heh ;)

16:20:39 <dc_rdfig> Added comment Y1.

16:20:58 <dajobe> dajobe has changed the topic to: Semantic Web hacking and chatting - (b)logs http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/ and http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/

16:21:03 <em> crschmidt, you're making me feel better :)

16:21:27 * em waves to all, heads back to work

16:21:35 <crschmidt> I try! :)

16:22:31 <dajobe> do you think a response, "XML syntaxes for RDF people" would be too jokey?

16:24:06 <crschmidt> No.

16:33:34 <OliB> there is a "XML for hexdump people" kind of Internet-Draft ... http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-strombergson-shf-01.txt

16:36:06 <dajobe> lol