Semantic Web Interest Group IRC Chat Logs for 2004-10-13

03:14:45 <CaptSolo> Ahewes: any luck with ical editors?

03:16:40 <Ahewes> Yeah. The apple viewer/editor is great, and phpicalendar. I'm compiling sunbird right now.

03:18:09 <Ahewes> I had this conceptual problem with iCal data, but I think I have resolved it.

03:18:29 <Ahewes> I think of everything as a task in my planner, or an appointment.

03:18:48 <Ahewes> It's not exactly the same as a VEVENT or a VTODO, as per ical.

03:19:19 <Ahewes> I move things back and forth from being on my task list to my appointment list, and vice versa.

03:19:48 <Ahewes> You could do this with iCal data, but viewers just don't account for this.

03:20:41 <Ahewes> And an appointment is a concept that I have to wedge into iCal as well. The difference between a todo and an appointment for me is that an appointment has more than one party, a todo has only one.

03:22:23 <Ahewes> So iCal has all the fields in VEVENT and VTODO to work with my ideas of how to schedule and plan, but the editors don't display/edit the way I would like.

03:24:25 <crschmidt> I think that's definitely true.

03:44:28 <Ahewes> AFAICT all iCal editors all have a similar interfaces. Not much innovation going on.

03:46:35 <Ahewes> It would be interesting, to me, to combine something like phpicalendar with something like Request Tracker.

05:19:07 <sanctius> Bonjour tout le monde / Good Morning all

05:31:31 <masaka>http://www.kanzaki.com/docs/sw/dc-a-matic

05:31:36 <dc_rdfig> A: http://www.kanzaki.com/docs/sw/dc-a-matic from masaka

05:32:22 <masaka> A|DC-a-matic - Instant metadata generator

05:33:29 <masaka> A:|DC-a-matic - Instant metadata generator

05:33:31 <dc_rdfig> Titled item A.

05:34:11 <masaka> A:An experimental form to generate a metadata as valid RDF/XML. Also makes GRDDL compatible XHTML meta elements.

05:34:12 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A1.

05:34:38 <masaka> A:not a big issue for advanced users, but maybe useful for beginners and those who don't remember namespace uris.

05:34:38 <dc_rdfig> Added comment A2.

08:32:25 <danbri__>http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-rdf-sparql-query-20041012/

08:32:36 <dc_rdfig> B: http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-rdf-sparql-query-20041012/ from danbri__

08:33:05 <danbri__> B:|SPARQL Query Language for RDF (W3C Working Draft 12 October 2004)

08:33:07 <dc_rdfig> Titled item B.

08:33:29 <danbri__> B:Nice work Eric, Andy and the rest of the DAWG :)

08:33:29 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B1.

08:50:23 <danbri> B:See also my [http://danbri.org/words/?p=63|Dublin Core “RDF idiom conversion rules” in SPARQL] experiment.

08:50:23 <dc_rdfig> Added comment B2.

08:52:05 <matthew> ÖÐÎÄ?

09:37:56 <danbri_dna>http://www.alibaba.com/

09:37:56 <dc_rdfig> C: http://www.alibaba.com/ from danbri_dna

09:38:08 <danbri_dna> C:|Alibaba.com

09:38:09 <dc_rdfig> Titled item C.

09:39:35 <danbri_dna> C:Mentioned to me this morning by some exporters I met (here in Shanghai). It's sort of a directory of companies who want to be matched up with partner companies.

09:39:36 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C1.

09:40:24 <danbri_dna> C:Lots of SemWebbish themes, trust, directories etc. in this application area. Hence posting it here. Don't have very collected thoughts on it yet.

09:40:25 <dc_rdfig> Added comment C2.

09:41:16 * Chopinhauer is away: Wikifies

09:46:40 <matthew> ÖÐÎÄ?

10:37:34 <Emmy> Hi all :)

10:37:47 <balbinus> hi Emmy :)

10:48:31 * Chopinhauer is away: Eating some stuff

11:48:23 <sh1m_> sh1m_ is now known as sh1m

13:39:10 <mchncl> mchncl is now known as tr0llchncl

13:54:19 <libby> .t utc

13:54:19 <phenny> 2004-10-13T13:54:19Z

13:54:29 <crschmidt> oh, right, meeting today?

13:54:32 <libby> yeah

13:54:48 <libby> I should ahve sent around an agenda but it didn;t happen

13:55:07 <crschmidt> heh

14:01:25 <libby> hello shellac, masaka :)

14:01:37 <libby> not see you around here recently masahide

14:02:10 <JibberJim> Hi masaka

14:02:35 <masaka> hi libby, JibberJim, I just finished my draft on the new book last weekend.

14:02:47 <libby> excellent :) :)

14:02:55 <masaka> :)

14:03:54 <masaka> I have to update the draft re: RDF query for SPARQL

14:04:04 <libby> are you having any luck finding a translator to English?

14:04:36 <masaka> no, not yet (actually, haven't try to find yet)

14:05:53 <libby> I can ask around if you like, but I'm sure your publishers will have better contacts

14:05:57 <JibberJim> Great news about the book masaka

14:06:02 * libby wants to read it in english :)

14:06:30 <libby> I'm happy to work with the main translater to help with anything I can if that's useful

14:06:31 <masaka> well, I'll ask the publisher

14:06:37 <libby> :)

14:07:34 <masaka> I'd like to keep FOAF section updated. Will some issues be decided near future ?

14:07:50 <DanC> meeting today? hmm... I vaguely remember. I'm so out of touch.

14:08:35 <libby> heh, hmmm, when's your deadline masaka?

14:09:24 <masaka> eh, a month from now, roughly.

14:10:16 <libby> did you have anything in particular in mind, re issues?

14:11:33 <masaka> yeah, range of interest, as well as range of mbox (rdfs:Resource that we discussed in Tokyo)

14:11:44 <libby> right

14:12:06 <libby> danbri might already ahve done the range of mbox things. I'll have a quick look

14:12:45 <masaka> good, thanks

14:13:28 * libby has a feeling that shellac thought it would break things

14:13:57 <shellac> ?

14:15:02 <libby> oh possibly not, I'm just looking up the reference

14:15:18 <shellac> as for rdfs:Resource owl:Thing might be better - not sure

14:15:50 <JibberJim> What's the difference?

14:16:01 <libby> http://rdfweb.org/pipermail/rdfweb-dev/2004-September/013709.html hm, there's also an issue with domain of interest, was that fixed?

14:16:24 <shellac> owl:Thing is definitely not a literal, iirc

14:16:31 * libby will trawl through previous issues too

14:16:32 <masaka> Literal value belongs to rdfs:Resource, JibberJim

14:16:44 <shellac> um - ought to check owl full about that, though

14:19:36 <masaka> you're right, shellac

14:21:16 <masaka> can add a triple foaf:mbox a owl:ObjectProperty.

14:21:50 <masaka> same thing in case of OWL Full, but seems informative enough

14:22:02 <libby> I can;t find any mail aboutthat issue. odd, must have just been chatting about it in various places

14:25:10 <bengee> owl:Thing is the class of all individuals that are the uinonOf owl:Nothing and the complement of owl:Nothing...

14:25:11 <bengee> ;)

14:28:19 <masaka> in OWL Full, "data values can be treated as individuals" ;-)

14:28:29 <shellac> I knew it - damn them!

14:29:11 <bengee> and rdfs is more or less an owl full area, so owl:Thing probably doesn't help us here..

14:29:34 <shellac> it's pretty hard to work out why literals can't be subjects, to be honest

14:30:54 <bengee> related discussion: http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/foaf/2004-09-15.html#T16-13-20

14:31:10 * bengee was looking for that a couple of days ago..

14:32:38 <bengee> i've now implemented this NonLiteralResource bnode approach for the foaf term broswer thing i'm (still) working on.

14:34:03 <libby> masaka, are you going to be here in 2 hours for the foaf meeting?

14:34:51 <libby> ouch! that's 1.30 am. perhaps not

14:34:54 <libby> :)

14:35:20 <masaka> well, i hope i will, but seems difficult

14:36:47 <libby> have you mailed to teh list about those two issues you raised or is our best reference our discussions in Tokyo?

14:38:01 <masaka> not mailed, eh, what is the best reference you mean ?

14:38:38 <libby> yeah, sorry, my brain is mush today. I'm looking for something to link to in an agenda.

14:39:59 <libby> ..or just a brief description here in the channel

14:42:30 <sanctius> Bonjour tout le monde / Good Morning all

14:43:01 <libby> the foaf:mbox is issue is that foaf:mbox has range rdfs:Resource and rdfs:Resource includes literals, so that's not very well defined, as we want non-literals for that range and for other ranges that are similar.

14:43:01 <balbinus> bonjour sanctius / hi sanctius

14:43:48 <sanctius> hi balbinus :-)

14:43:58 <libby> and masaka's suggesed solution is

14:43:58 <libby> [[

14:43:59 <libby> <masaka>can add a triple foaf:mbox a owl:ObjectProperty.

14:43:59 <libby> <masaka>same thing in case of OWL Full, but seems informative enough

14:44:00 <libby> ]]

14:44:16 <libby> so remind me of the other issue masaka?

14:47:19 <masaka> no other special topic re: FOAF i think, libby

14:49:23 <shellac> I'm trying to find a discussion about the literal - resource relationship from rdf core

14:49:33 <shellac> no luck - they did change it, iirc

15:04:47 <shellac> ok - how about http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Dec/0145.html

15:04:55 <shellac> re literals & resources?

15:09:23 <JimJibber> JimJibber is now known as JibberJim

16:12:34 <tav|offline> tav|offline is now known as tav

16:20:19 <libby> .t utc

16:20:21 <phenny> 2004-10-13T16:20:20Z

16:20:28 * libby better get chumping

16:21:08 <libby>http://rdfweb.org/pipermail/rdfweb-dev/2004-October/013816.html

16:21:11 <dc_rdfig> D: http://rdfweb.org/pipermail/rdfweb-dev/2004-October/013816.html from libby

16:21:37 <libby> D:|Foaf project meeting 2004-10-13, 1630 UTC

16:21:39 <dc_rdfig> Titled item D.

16:21:40 * mortenf wonders if iand will be here for the meeting

16:21:45 <libby> (i.e. in 10 minutes)

16:21:50 <iand> i'm here!

16:21:53 <libby> yay!

16:22:03 <libby> D:attending Libby Miller

16:22:03 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D1.

16:22:10 <mortenf> :)

16:22:32 <libby> BLURB:Foaf meeting agenda item 1 (E) new website

16:22:32 <dc_rdfig> E: Foaf meeting agenda item 1 (E) new website from libby

16:22:33 <mortenf> will you change the topic libby?

16:22:40 <libby> yeah sure, one sec

16:22:43 <balbinus> hi mortenf :) what's the name of that letter: å? (was wondering that on #foaf)

16:22:44 <mortenf> np

16:22:50 <mortenf> &aring; ?

16:22:56 <balbinus> yep

16:23:14 <libby> E:see http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/2004/09/22/2004-09-22.html#1095870673.746723|previous notes]

16:23:15 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E1.

16:23:23 <mortenf> of course, the native name is pronounced as is... :)

16:23:37 <libby> E:and [http://beta.foaf-project.org/|new site design]

16:23:37 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E2.

16:23:45 <balbinus> what's the native name?

16:24:05 <mortenf> å ;)

16:24:19 <balbinus> :D

16:24:26 <balbinus> thx :)

16:24:45 <mortenf> it's a vowel, so...

16:25:04 <libby> BLURB: Foaf project meeting itme agenda item 2 (F) rdfs:Resource as range in the foaf spec

16:25:05 <dc_rdfig> F: Foaf project meeting itme agenda item 2 (F) rdfs:Resource as range in the foaf spec from libby

16:25:22 <libby> F:see [http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2004-10-13.html#T14-43-01|brief summary/chat from earlier]

16:25:22 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F1.

16:26:19 <libby> BLURB:Foaf project meeting agenda item 3 (G) various image-related properties and classes and suitability in foaf namespace

16:26:19 <dc_rdfig> G: Foaf project meeting agenda item 3 (G) various image-related properties and classes and suitability in foaf namespace from libby

16:27:14 <libby> G:see [http://rdfweb.org/pipermail/rdfweb-dev/2004-October/013800.html|recent message Jim/cam] and [http://rdfweb.org/pipermail/rdfweb-dev/2004-January/012523.html|older message from Morten]

16:27:14 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G1.

16:27:59 <libby> BLURB:Foaf project meeting item 4 (H) foaf:interest and related properties

16:28:00 <dc_rdfig> H: Foaf project meeting item 4 (H) foaf:interest and related properties from libby

16:28:28 <libby> H:see [http://rdfweb.org/pipermail/rdfweb-dev/2004-September/013752.html|some discussion]

16:28:29 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H1.

16:29:05 <libby> H1:see [http://rdfweb.org/pipermail/rdfweb-dev/2004-September/013752.html|some discussion] and thread

16:29:05 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment H1.

16:29:09 <mortenf> D:[http://www.wasab.dk/morten/blog/|Morten] attending

16:29:09 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D2.

16:29:26 <libby> H:and [http://www.semanticplanet.com/2004/09/topics.html|Ian's blog entry on the subject]

16:29:27 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H2.

16:29:53 <libby> I've got to go get something to eat, brb. please add yourself to D as morten has if you're attending the meeting

16:30:00 <balbinus> D:[http://foaf.balbinus.net/|Vincent] attending

16:30:01 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D3.

16:30:05 <balbinus> :)

16:30:15 <mortenf> E1:see [http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/2004/09/22/2004-09-22.html#1095870673.746723|previous notes]

16:30:15 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment E1.

16:30:35 <inkel> D:[http://f14web.com.ar/inkel/|inkel] attending

16:30:36 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D4.

16:30:42 <libby> libby has changed the topic to: foaf meeting 1630 UTC 2004-10-13, 60-90 mins. Agenda: http://rdfweb.org/pipermail/rdfweb-dev/2004-October/013816.html / Semantic Web / RDF chat n hack. blog http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/ logs http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/

16:30:55 <sh1mmer> D:[http://kid666.com/|Tom (aka Sh1mmer)] attending

16:30:55 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D5.

16:31:11 <mortenf> while we're waiting for libby, we could all hammer a bit on the beta site: http://beta.foaf-project.org/

16:31:12 <kasei> D:[http://kasei.us/|kasei] attending

16:31:12 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D6.

16:31:17 <iand> D:[http://internetalchemy.org/|Ian] attending

16:31:18 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D7.

16:31:37 <mortenf> stress-test it a bit perhaps :)

16:31:40 <nicole> how do I add myself to D?

16:31:42 <sh1mmer> heh

16:31:53 <nicole> :)

16:31:56 <mortenf> nicole, see examples above, like: D:...

16:32:04 <sh1mmer> nicole it is in the form D:[url|name] attending

16:32:06 <nicole> thx

16:32:28 <sh1mmer> nicole or just D:name attending if you don't want to use a url

16:32:41 <nicole> D:nicole attending

16:32:42 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D8.

16:33:06 <sh1mmer> comments appear at rdfig.xmlhack.com

16:33:24 <libby> back...

16:33:28 <libby> -----foaf meeting

16:33:42 <libby> quick run through prev actions?

16:33:52 <libby> dan's not here though and I've not done mine... :/

16:33:53 <mortenf> sure, i'd like to continue mine :/

16:34:10 * libby too

16:34:21 <mortenf> any actions not to be continued? ;)

16:34:25 <libby> danbri wrote a workshop report for foaf workshop, so taht's 1/2 an action done

16:34:45 <libby> they're here, for ref: http://rdfweb.org/pipermail/rdfweb-dev/2004-October/013816.html

16:34:52 <bengee> D:attending: [http://www.appmosphere.com/|bengee]

16:34:52 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D9.

16:35:04 <crschmidt> My action was the naming things: with regard to julie's data, teh name stats all match Swoogle results pretty closely, although on a much smaller scale

16:35:37 <mortenf> is the report on the web libby?

16:35:41 <libby> right

16:35:51 <libby> do you still want to contiue that crschmidt?

16:35:56 <libby> yep mortenf

16:35:58 <libby>http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/reports/final_workshop_report/

16:35:58 <dc_rdfig> I: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/reports/final_workshop_report/ from libby

16:36:11 <libby> I:|Foaf workshop report for the commission

16:36:11 <dc_rdfig> Titled item I.

16:36:38 <libby> I:including some interesting (and much appreciated) evaluation feedback

16:36:38 <dc_rdfig> Added comment I1.

16:36:52 <crschmidt> libby: nah. putting together the stats isn't going to show anything meaningful that hasn't already been demonstrated by other results

16:37:04 <crschmidt> Other people have done it already, and much better :)

16:37:17 <libby> ok, so that's done, cheers chris

16:37:23 <libby> I'll update all these later

16:37:36 <libby> ok, moving on then...

16:37:47 <libby> ---item 1 - new foaf project website

16:38:02 <libby> - http://beta.foaf-project.org/

16:38:18 <libby> nicole, want to talk us through some of the design decisions you made here?

16:38:42 <nicole> I tried to leave the most flexible design possible

16:38:50 <nicole> main navigation above

16:38:58 <nicole> flexible sub navigation to the left

16:39:05 <nicole> two columns for content

16:39:10 <nicole> and match it to the blog

16:39:33 <nicole> I would love feedback

16:39:50 <nicole> no mac for instance, so I can't test

16:39:54 <crschmidt> I like it a lot

16:39:56 <libby> thanks nicole :) and thanks for coming along

16:39:58 <crschmidt> looks good in safari here

16:40:04 <libby> yep looks good to me

16:40:13 <nicole> I have heard that the font could be larger

16:40:13 <libby> in firefox and safari

16:40:15 <mortenf> i like it, but would also like for the h1 (foaf project) to be linked

16:40:36 <nicole> dan suggested making the entire upper area a link

16:40:37 <mortenf> hmm, that's not the h1...

16:40:44 <mortenf> right, that may work as well

16:40:45 <inkel> I like it too

16:40:48 <libby> perhaps we can add suggestions to E?

16:41:03 <nicole> its an h2

16:41:07 <mortenf> yeah

16:41:17 <nicole> what is E?

16:41:19 <libby> yep, nicole, jibberjim found the font rather small...jim?

16:41:20 <mortenf> E:suggestion: add link for h2

16:41:20 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E3.

16:41:25 <iand> font size is OK in IE 6 on medium and smaller text size settings (often a big problem)

16:41:31 <balbinus> in firefox, winXP, 1152*864, looks perfect :) (maybe "foaf project" not as visible as it should, but not much of a problem :)

16:41:33 <libby> yeah, like that, see rdfig.xmlhack.com

16:42:07 <mortenf> in firefox, it seems the vertical "line" splitting foaf and project seems to move a bit when navigating around, perhaps that could be fixed?

16:42:07 <nicole> I will probably add a stylesheet switcher that allows for choosing ones own font size

16:42:13 <nicole> but not a priority

16:42:17 <Talliesin> I disagree with the alt text "Blue, yellow, red, and ____ smileys - foaf logo" that seems more of a description than an alternative.

16:43:19 <nicole> Talliesin, I agree, I guess it should indicate where the link goes

16:43:21 <gk> Viewing: http://www.foaf-project.org/~nicole/FOAF/index.html . It looks very smooth, some specific comments: (a) it's not obvious the FOAF logo links to the home page, (b) I think the home page could do with a few words about what FOAF is about. I'm viewing with firefox.

16:43:23 <deltab> "This page contains Friend-of-a-Friend data."

16:43:56 <nicole> gk, any suggestions for good write-ups I can use?

16:44:00 <balbinus> nicole: alt of the img != title of the a... alt might be (i think) "FOAF logo"

16:44:06 <libby> E:[http://rdfweb.org/pipermail/foafsite-webmasters/2004-September/000021.html|nicole's todo list]

16:44:07 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E4.

16:44:12 <Talliesin> You could go with dan's suggestion of having the whole top section link, and then have the logo's alt be ""

16:44:21 <bengee> E:do others alos have the "[http://www.bluerobot.com/web/css/fouc.asp|Flash of Unstyled Content]" effect on ie?

16:44:21 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E5.

16:44:23 <deltab> oh, the FOAF project itself?

16:44:30 <libby> yeah we need to supply nicole with the right text gk, but good point

16:44:54 <iand> E: yes, I see flash too

16:44:55 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E6.

16:45:18 <iand> will wiki also be styled in similar fashion?

16:45:19 <gk> Nicole, as a general principle, I'd suggest stealing text from the old foaf-project home page (for starters).

16:45:24 <reto> looks nice, even with lynx, but for accessability I think the navigation should be at bottom with a hidden link to it at top

16:45:25 <Talliesin> Speaking of the logo, having a section about the logo would be nice I think (and could also serve as a longdesc in places where the log is used).

16:45:25 <nicole> I hadn't seen the FOUC, I think its easy to fix

16:45:46 <bengee> yeah, it is

16:46:00 <nicole> wiki will be simillar but pared down, more developer less fuss

16:46:25 <gk> Nicole, specifically: "The Friend of a Friend (FOAF) project is about creating a Web of machine-readable homepages describing people, the links between them and the things they create and do." -- http://www.foaf-project.org/

16:46:53 <nicole> reto, there are (or will be) skip links to both content and navigation

16:47:03 <reto> cool

16:47:20 <mortenf> E3:suggestion: add link for h2 or make entire top section a link per danbri's suggestion

16:47:21 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment E3.

16:47:56 <reto> I'd like to see "web" renamed and merged with "welcome", to much clicking to get the spec

16:48:00 <nicole> gk, thx

16:48:33 <mortenf> reto, i think there's a point to the section names...

16:48:55 <nicole> welcome is just the intro page

16:48:56 <Talliesin> Could we reuse the web submenu on the welcome page - to fulfil reto's request?

16:48:59 <nicole> not really a section

16:49:01 <Talliesin> Something like that.

16:49:16 <mortenf> yeah, that could work

16:49:25 <reto> I don0t like welcome pages...

16:49:39 <reto> real content right away

16:49:53 <inkel> what about translations?

16:50:04 <nicole> Me neither, but I didnt want people who just wanted to make a foaf file get lost in somewhat vague catagory names

16:50:12 <nicole> felt some explaination was necessary

16:50:23 * crschmidt agrees

16:50:35 <crschmidt> I like pages that provide you navigation when you get there, with a quick overview

16:50:50 <iand> would the categories be better named after the task? i.e. learn about foaf, how to write it, etc

16:50:53 <nicole> inkel, dan asked me to add an international foaf section, inc translations

16:51:05 <inkel> great, thx nicole

16:51:07 <reto> sound good with task-names

16:52:07 <JibberJim> ERK, my repaired laptop's clock was wrong!

16:52:14 <libby> any other comments right now?

16:52:24 <JibberJim> apologies...

16:52:27 <nicole> someone mentioned moving line between content and navigation. Was this going between search and other screens?

16:52:27 <libby> heh, jim? wanna explain your problem

16:52:33 <libby> ?

16:52:54 <JibberJim> With the small fonts?

16:52:55 <CaptSolo> hi all

16:53:09 <Talliesin> Are the index.html URIs an artefact of working with files rather than a webserver? Will we lose them in the the final cut?

16:53:12 <mortenf> nicole, yes, between sections

16:53:18 * Talliesin hates file extensions in URIs

16:53:19 <nicole> it was mortenf

16:53:34 <libby> yeah jim

16:53:40 <mortenf> well, the "line" in the top section between "foaf" and "project"

16:53:43 <JibberJim> yeah, basically CSS setting that's below 80 is just too small to read - probably better on this screen, but I just couldn't read it.

16:53:58 <mortenf> between e.g. web and world

16:54:01 <nicole> was it specifically when you moved between the search section and another?

16:54:06 <Talliesin> And can the blog have RSS1.0 instead of RSS2.0 so that it'll be RDF?

16:54:10 <mortenf> nope, not the search section

16:54:27 <libby> rss2?

16:54:45 <nicole> hmm, weird, I'll have a look at it

16:54:56 <iand> +1 to RSS 1 :)

16:54:59 <JibberJim> main body text is a little too small, left menu is unreadable.

16:55:04 <libby> rss2 is a bug :)

16:55:20 <mortenf> seems "you", "web" and "search" have the same width, which is a bit wider than the rest

16:55:26 <libby> E:move to rss 1.0 rather than (or maybe as well as) 2.0)

16:55:27 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E7.

16:55:34 <nicole> thx JibberJim, I will increase the font size

16:55:36 * bengee thinks a short explanation of the sections on the welcome page could be helpful.

16:55:59 <mortenf> hmm, there is an explanation there?

16:56:00 <JibberJim> otherwise all is good.

16:56:17 <JibberJim> (well the unstyled flash is annoying, but that's common)

16:56:21 <reto> I'm wondering if a planet-foaf woudn't be better that a blog, aggregating only foaf-spefic blogs

16:56:36 <libby> E:jim's problem with menu too small to read, main text a bit small

16:56:37 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E8.

16:56:48 <bengee> ah, cool. just wanted to agree ;)

16:56:49 <libby> E:bengee suggests explantion of sections on welcome page

16:56:50 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E9.

16:56:58 <nicole> mortenf I know search changes the line because there is no scroll bar so the page width changes

16:57:13 <libby> reto, that would be cool. it's also quite nice to have a project blog

16:57:21 <nicole> its all flexible, based on % so that can't be helped,

16:57:22 <mortenf> ah, right, that's why, i see now...

16:57:31 <nicole> but I'm surprised its happening with other sections

16:57:41 <bengee> E9:""

16:57:41 <dc_rdfig> Deleted comment E9.

16:57:42 <mortenf> perhaps by making top left section fixed width (the height is fixed already)?

16:58:15 * bengee didn't read properly..

16:58:19 <reto> libby, if foaf-particpator would have all their foaf-specific rss-feeds I wouldn't know when to use the project blog

16:58:23 <mortenf> it happens for the same reason on the other pages, i guess my window is larger than yours...

16:58:37 <nicole> ah ha

16:59:15 <nicole> the RSS q I don't know anything about

16:59:36 <libby> we can fix the rss thing nicole

16:59:39 <iand> nicole, the RSS issue is a wordpress thing

16:59:40 <libby> just blog config

16:59:49 <iand> I'm sure one of us can help with that

16:59:57 <nicole> ok, cool

17:00:02 <CaptSolo> D:[http://captsolo.net/info/|CaptSolo] attending

17:00:03 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D10.

17:00:22 <iand> i noticed that danbri.org weblog also has default rss 2

17:00:33 <iand> so we ought to fix that too ;)

17:00:34 <JibberJim> D:[http://jibbering.com/|Jim Ley] Attending

17:00:34 <libby> oopsy

17:00:34 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D11.

17:00:45 <mortenf> move on?

17:01:00 <libby> yep I think so

17:01:01 <nicole> thanks!

17:01:10 <libby> thank you nicole, it looks great

17:01:12 <mortenf> thank you!

17:01:14 <iand> thanks

17:01:27 <libby> do we have a launch date?

17:01:51 <nicole> I had hoped for November 1

17:01:54 <CaptSolo> the site looks wonderful :)

17:01:58 <JibberJim> yes, thanks nicole, looks very good.

17:02:02 <libby> cool

17:02:12 <iand> oh, i forgot to say that I offered for danbri to host the foaflet icons

17:02:13 <bengee> nicole++

17:02:18 <iand> on foaf-project.org

17:02:19 * CaptSolo wishes i could click those nice thumbnails and get somewhere

17:02:31 * inkel wish the same

17:02:40 * mortenf hopes the thumbnails will be scutter-driven at some point...

17:02:47 <libby> yeah

17:02:50 <iand> but I've been too tied up to do anything with it

17:02:58 <libby> thanks iand :)

17:03:11 <nicole> yes, future plan. . . after launch

17:03:20 <libby> E:action danbri put foaflets on foaf site

17:03:21 <dc_rdfig> Added comment E9.

17:03:27 <libby> ok, moving on

17:03:30 <libby> ---item 2 (F) rdfs:Resource as range in the foaf spec

17:04:08 <libby> this was something masahide brought up, and we were chatting about it earlier: http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2004-10-13.html#T14-43-01

17:04:25 <libby> unfortuntely masahide has to go as it is 2am in japan :(

17:04:51 <mortenf> bengee?

17:05:09 <bengee> here

17:05:13 <libby> can anyone see anythign problematic with masahide's suggestion: <masaka>can add a triple foaf:mbox a owl:ObjectProperty.

17:05:19 <mortenf> can you offer some input on this?

17:05:41 <mortenf> (re owl and :NonLiteral or so?)

17:05:47 <bengee> dan suggested adding NonLiteralResource for objetc props

17:05:59 <captainjim> D: [http://takepart.com|James Carlyle] Attending

17:06:00 <dc_rdfig> Added comment D12.

17:06:05 * gk finds it hard to see what the point is... IRC logs not always easy to follow!

17:06:18 <bengee> let me find the pointer again..

17:06:31 <libby> sorry gk...rdfs:Resource includes literals, so saying somethign has a range of rdfs:Resource is not very informative

17:06:38 <iand> even adding a NonLiteralResource range doesn't stop people writing a literal for the value of foaf:mbox

17:06:42 <mortenf> the basic problem is trying to specify that the intended range of a property is a "real" resource, not a literal

17:06:58 <reto> whats about defing a rdfc:Class Email

17:07:02 <mortenf> you can never stop people, but you can hint and help

17:07:06 <libby> on the other hand we don;t want to hurt tools that don;t expect our weird non-literal property

17:07:10 <bengee> discussion a couple of weeks ago: http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/foaf/2004-09-15.html#T16-13-20

17:07:19 <gk> Sure, saying range rdfs:Resource is pretty much a tautology in RDF. What do you want to say?

17:07:24 <libby> thanks bengee, I was looking for that

17:07:36 <libby> F:see [http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/foaf/2004-09-15.html#T16-13-20|previous discussion]

17:07:36 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F2.

17:07:51 * reto not sure if a literal could have (implicit) rdf:type foaf:Email

17:08:11 <bengee> I've added NonLiteralResource to my spec generator which was not too complicated. haven#t tested it with other tools yet, though..

17:08:39 <bengee> I don't know if protege could handle that on import..

17:08:59 <JibberJim> I can't see any problems saying it's a nonLiteralResource - surely the main problem is identifying what the best Class to use that everyone can agree on?

17:09:14 <bengee> simply typing the props a objectproperties may be more straight forward..

17:09:48 <gk> What does it _mean_ to be a NonLiteralResource?

17:09:59 * mortenf wonders if an owl system would discover the problem

17:10:17 <mortenf> bengee, is that enough?

17:10:31 <iand> you could define as owl:complementOf of rdfs:Literal

17:10:35 <bengee> it's those individuals that are disjoint with rdfs:Literal

17:11:19 <mortenf> ok, that should be enough then, to discover the contradiction

17:11:20 <gk> I think OWL-DL makes a distinction by having literals in a separate subdomain of interpretation, but don't think that extends to OWL-full (but I'm a bit sketchy on OWL details), and I'm almost certain there's no such disjunction in RDF(S)

17:11:33 <mortenf> right (re rdfs)

17:11:49 <mortenf> and foaf is in owl full anyway...

17:12:16 <libby> is it really just a hint to humans?

17:12:31 <bengee> in owl full objectproperties can theoretically be used with literals, so ...

17:12:41 <mortenf> hmm

17:12:43 <reto> can a foaf:Document be a Literal? can it be anonymous?

17:13:02 <JibberJim> How is IFP equivalence defined on literals anyway? is :a foaf:mbox "" and :b foaf:mbox "" are :a and :b the same?

17:13:09 <reto> I ask because an anonymous resource woudn't be a good bmailbox

17:13:26 <mortenf> jim: yep

17:13:49 <gk> I think that, outside OWL-full, anything that can be denoted by a literal can also be denoted by a URI, and vice-versa if allowing the introduction of arbitrary new RDF datatypes.

17:13:51 <iand> reto: i disagree

17:13:52 <bengee> i think its something along "same lexical representation" or so.. (not sure about typing)

17:14:07 <iand> it might be useful to refer to a mailbox indirectly

17:14:23 <reto> hmm

17:15:00 <reto> I agree, would be an argument for a class foaf:Email

17:15:05 <mortenf> bengee, did you implement what danbri outlined at http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/foaf/2004-09-15.html#T16-13-20 ?

17:15:07 <gk> Why not, the mailbox of the person whose homepage is ...

17:15:17 <Talliesin> reto, it can be anonymous - that just means some information is missing from a particular graph, it could be in another graph though (or not)

17:15:30 <bengee> mortenf, yes

17:15:42 <reto> I agree that mbox-resource can be anonymous

17:15:44 <gk> Ah yes, "missing isn't broken", as DanBri so perceptively wrote

17:15:53 <mortenf> ok, because i think it seems to be the best option

17:16:19 <mortenf> it seems using owl:ObjectProperty isn't enough

17:16:25 <libby> hm

17:16:33 <gk> What do you want to say here?

17:16:34 <iand> would be informative to create a class for the range of mbox, although I suggest Mailbox as a better name

17:16:57 <libby> we need to think about moving on nowish if we are going to cover all our topics

17:17:09 <balbinus_> balbinus_ is now known as balbinus

17:17:12 <libby> what can we do to push this forward?

17:17:20 <reto> foaf:Mbox?

17:17:29 <JibberJim> Okay, we should look into defining a foaf:Mailbox class?

17:17:41 <libby> I think one problem with that is that its not a general solution to whast is a general problem

17:17:42 <mortenf> i think we need clarification (certainty) re owl and ObjectProperty

17:17:57 <mortenf> right, we need the general solution

17:18:01 <libby> anyone want to take an action?

17:18:05 <libby> :)

17:18:12 <CaptSolo> would foaf:Mbox solve anything?

17:18:17 <iand> i can write up what's been said

17:18:17 <JibberJim> True libby, but is the general solution relevant to foaf, or should it be pushed back to the RDF people?

17:18:30 * mortenf hopes bengee would like to look at owl

17:18:36 <libby> quite likely pushed back

17:18:45 <reto> foaf:Mbox could be defined as subclass of some owl-magic (non literal)

17:18:51 <mortenf> methinks they'll say the machinery is already there

17:18:57 <JibberJim> (not that the groups aren't necessarily the same of course, but...)

17:19:02 <gk> Libby, apologies if I'm missing important context, but I think some clearer idea of what needs to be said. For example, define a new class for the range of foaf:mbox (was that it?) and give it a detailed rdfs:comment description and nothing else.

17:19:15 <bengee> sample rdfs/owl with nonliteralbla: http://www.bnode.org/temp/nonliteralresource_demo.rdf

17:19:17 <mortenf> gk, it's not just for foaf:mbox...

17:19:22 <iand> CaptSolo - would be useful as a hint to foaf authors rather than a constraint

17:19:25 <libby> I think we shoudl take this to email

17:19:33 <reto> gk, no owl?

17:19:36 <libby> masahide may have useful input too

17:19:38 * Talliesin agress with gk

17:20:14 <libby> ok, I'll take an action to summarise to email

17:20:21 <gk> Add Owl and other statements to the class description when there's an informal consensus about what needs to be said, I think.

17:20:31 <libby> and you'll ahve to hope I get on it quicker than my other actions

17:20:33 * CaptSolo also agrees with gk

17:20:39 <CaptSolo> simple is good

17:20:54 <CaptSolo> getting this to email is a good idea

17:21:07 <libby> F:action libby summarise this discussion to email

17:21:08 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F3.

17:21:34 <mortenf> erhm, an Mbox class is good for mbox, but what about e.g. topic then?

17:21:37 <libby> sorry, nice discussion, but we need to crack on.

17:21:42 <mortenf> right, sorry

17:21:47 <libby> s'ok :)

17:21:59 <Talliesin> Also, topic has additional complications

17:22:22 <libby> ok we have 2 topics left plus sh1m's been doing some stuff on trust

17:22:25 <mortenf> (Talliesin, please let us know about those)

17:22:35 <libby> the topics are : image stuff, and foaf:topic, interest and related

17:22:45 <Talliesin> (When we get to A.O.B. maybe)

17:22:49 <libby> I'm going to ahve to leave in 15 mins

17:23:13 <libby> any preference which order to do those in? does anyone else have to go?

17:23:14 * mortenf too

17:23:30 <Talliesin> Oh, foaf:topic is in the list, and mortenf just brought it up, so let's do that one first.

17:23:43 <mortenf> sure

17:23:45 <iand> ok

17:23:49 <libby> yeah

17:23:57 <mortenf> (that's not what i brought up though :)

17:24:08 <libby> ---(H) foaf:interest and related properties

17:24:19 <libby> iand, fancy giving us a brief intro?

17:25:03 <libby> heh

17:25:05 <libby> maybe not

17:25:07 <iand> yes

17:25:23 <libby> :)

17:25:27 <libby> thanks ian

17:25:35 <iand> looking at foaf:topic and foaf:interest and their ranges

17:25:37 <gk> F:See also: http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Evolution.html

17:25:38 <dc_rdfig> Added comment F4.

17:26:22 <iand> also the foaf:interest property is named very broadly but has a specific meaning

17:26:35 <iand> which makes it hard to introduce more general terms

17:26:55 <mortenf> examples?

17:27:39 <captainjim> the range of foaf:interest is foaf:Document, but one can be clearly be interested in things that may not be a document or have a document about them

17:27:41 <iand> range of foaf:interest is a document. the meaning being you are interested in the topic of the documenyt

17:27:54 <mortenf> right

17:28:33 <iand> there is also a topic_interest property

17:28:46 <iand> which is closer to the general sense of being interested in a topic

17:29:00 <iand> but a note in the spec says it is deprecated

17:29:09 <reto> range of foaf:interest foaf:Interest which may have an ifp to a describing document

17:29:16 <iand> due to confusion about it's meaning

17:29:17 * Talliesin favours topic_interest and thingks it has more scope for expansion.

17:29:37 <iand> topic_interest is what I would have though interest should have been

17:29:44 * mortenf still hasn't seen examples re "expansion" or "more general terms"

17:29:49 <iand> issue is how to work with what we have got now

17:30:03 <captainjim> iand and i wanted to describe some aspects of a persons activities (weblog postings, calendar events, bookmarks, possibly knows) in terms of their interests

17:30:22 <Talliesin> Also, to serve as an IFP a document must describe only one thing. It is often hard to say what that one thing is, even in the case where the document is only intended to have one topic.

17:31:13 <reto> I can say "I'm interest with the topic of that document" and that cannot be reduced

17:31:19 <mortenf> sure, but the point is that if two people are interested in the topic of some page, it's "likely" they are interested in the same thing (owl:Thing), even if it's defined further

17:31:40 <mortenf> erh, "not defined further"

17:31:44 <iand> but are they interested in all topics of that document

17:31:52 <iand> there;s a note in the schema to this effect

17:31:54 <deltab> topic or subject?

17:32:26 <mortenf> right, it says "topic(s)", but i still don't see the problem

17:32:39 * iand pokes around schema

17:33:07 <iand> ok, consider a hypothetical foaf:hobby

17:33:17 <Talliesin> This is all good. But I like the idea of developping ontologies to work directly with topic_interest more.

17:33:41 <iand> a hobby is a type of interest, but not in the sense of foaf:interest, more in the sense of foaf:topic_interest

17:34:03 <mortenf> right

17:34:26 <iand> so we have to say it's a subproperty of topic_interest

17:34:28 <mortenf> i agree that the property isn't well-named

17:34:43 <iand> which is ok, but confusing to newcomers

17:35:01 <gk> It sounds as an interest could be a term in a common Ontology (e.g. Cyc). Is there a class of Cyc terms defined by Cyc?

17:35:03 <mortenf> true

17:35:21 <libby> sorry guys, I have to go, double-booked

17:35:23 <iand> my suggestion was to deprecate interest and replace with a more specific name

17:35:45 <mortenf> ok, seems like we could use some usage numbers

17:35:47 <inkel> bye libby

17:35:50 <bengee> bye libby

17:35:51 <iand> seeya

17:35:58 <reto> iand, I'd rather like different subclass of Interest, but only one property

17:35:59 * mortenf steps out in 5 as well

17:35:59 <libby> chump any decisions and take to mailling list if appropriate

17:36:02 <libby> cya!

17:36:04 * gk waves to Libby

17:36:06 <mortenf> bye

17:36:08 <Talliesin> We can live with bad names. I think however that the way foaf:interest works by indirectly identifying something through an IFP is something that works well in much else in FOAF, but something that directly links to Cyc or such as gk says would be better.

17:36:16 * Talliesin waves

17:36:57 <Talliesin> usage numbers will be biased, since there's already a note that one of the two methods is deprectated.

17:37:00 <mortenf> so, how would we identify "topics" (which i still claim doesn't warrant a class, it's pretty much rdfs:Resource)

17:37:10 <reto> if the object if a foaf:Interest, that can be derefrencable to homepage, it may have an ifc to a describing document, but doesn't have to

17:37:14 <Talliesin> Possibly I'm the only person still using topic_interest :)

17:37:23 <mortenf> i was thinking of "how many places do we need to change"...

17:37:45 <mortenf> i wasn't looking for number on topic_interest

17:37:52 <mortenf> ... numbers

17:38:12 <iand> It may be too late to change...

17:38:24 <reto> "topic_interest" could be a subclass of interest, npbody has to change

17:38:26 <iand> but the whole interest area is ...interesting

17:38:34 <mortenf> ;)

17:38:40 <Talliesin> I think they both work as they are, we don't need to deprecate anything.

17:38:45 <Talliesin> I think we can do more though.

17:39:08 <deltab> gk: possibly #$CycLIndexedTerm or #$CycLConstant

17:40:34 <Talliesin> I'm not even sure the appropriate class should be defined in FOAF (except as a "placeholder" to make it clear that a more suitable ontology's class was a subclass of foaf:Topic and hence note that that ontology could be used with foaf:topic_interest)

17:40:47 <captainjim> how about use topic_interest to point to a foaf:Topic and then using foaf:page to point from there to a document

17:41:17 <iand> foaf:interest is like a shortcut of doing that

17:41:18 <gk> deltab, maybe. I don't know any details of Cyc so can't really comment further. I think what makes this interesting/challenging is if people want to use some kind of IFP reasoning on them, though I don't yet see how that would apply.

17:41:28 * Talliesin does as captainjim suggests. Works for me ;)

17:41:56 <reto> captainjim, and from the page there may a foaf:primaryTopic to foaf:Topic

17:42:27 <mortenf> why should we need a foaf:Topic?

17:42:36 <Talliesin> Some topics have, for one reason or another, a page that can be considered that topic's home page. In this case the IFPness of foaf:homepage is appropriate and could be useful.

17:42:53 <reto> I think the shorter and more intuitive name "foaf:interest" shoul be the more general and not a shortcut

17:43:04 <iand> i'm less convinced about the need for Topic now

17:43:07 * CaptSolo gotta go, will catch up from home

17:43:17 <CaptSolo> photo part would be interesting

17:43:26 <Talliesin> I want foaf:Topic, just as a convenient hook for a more topic-focused ontology.

17:43:37 <mortenf> ok, did we make any progress that can be reported?

17:43:50 <Talliesin> reto, I agree but is it worth introducing breaking changes?

17:44:05 <iand> let's get some usage stats

17:44:05 * mortenf seconds that

17:44:11 <reto> why not foaf:Interest? not a breaking chage or foaf:Topic

17:44:29 <reto> the rest is already there (foaf:primaryTopic)

17:44:31 <mortenf> great, i'll try to dig some out of jim's 6.7M

17:44:42 <iand> excellent

17:44:49 * mortenf wonders if crschmidt is around

17:45:12 <iand> i'd also like to explore topic_interest further

17:45:20 <captainjim> yes

17:45:30 <iand> we should find out why it's marked as confusing and unconfuse it

17:45:39 <mortenf> sure, we could always decide to remove the deprecation marker

17:45:42 <mortenf> right

17:46:02 <mortenf> anyone up for looking at synonyms of interest? ;)

17:46:10 <iand> ok

17:46:16 <iand> can do.

17:46:23 <captainjim> if the naming is confusing, now would be a good time to change while deprecated and under-used

17:46:36 <Talliesin> iand an I want to resurrect topic_interest. Anyone else agree?

17:46:40 <mortenf> can we agree to postpone the agenda item re photo stuff?

17:46:41 <iand> +1

17:46:48 <mortenf> +1

17:46:50 <Talliesin> +1

17:46:54 <captainjim> yes

17:46:56 <reto> I think we don't need a shortcut because a Topic can have the url of the homepage

17:46:57 <mortenf> (namechange possible)

17:47:02 <reto> -1

17:47:24 <mortenf> G:postponed

17:47:25 <dc_rdfig> Added comment G2.

17:47:25 <reto> on resurrection

17:47:34 <iand> i can distill down my weblog posting into a bitesized usage guide

17:47:40 <Talliesin> reto, I don't think that's necesarily the best url.

17:47:47 <Talliesin> reto, why -1?

17:47:50 <mortenf> H:ACTION mortenf: get usage count for foaf:interest off jim's 6.7M triple dump

17:47:50 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H3.

17:48:03 <mortenf> iand, will you action yourself?

17:48:24 <captainjim> mortenf, can you also get some usage for topic_interest at the same time?

17:48:35 <iand> H: ACTION iand: investigate interest synonyms

17:48:36 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H4.

17:48:46 <reto> I don't think we need the shortcut because the homepage may no be the best url of a topic but still a good one, so we not break anything havin range of interest Topic

17:48:56 <iand> H: ACTION iand: write up current usage of interest and topic_interest

17:48:57 <dc_rdfig> Added comment H5.

17:48:57 <gk> Interest-related words, from Oxford Thesaurus: business, concern, affair, property; hobby, pastime, diversion, avocation, amusement, entertainment, pursuit, relaxation, occupation

17:48:58 <mortenf> sure

17:49:12 <iand> gk, some mix of senses there

17:49:16 <mortenf> H3:ACTION mortenf: get usage count for foaf:interest and foaf:intest_topic off jim's 6.7M triple dump

17:49:17 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment H3.

17:49:28 <Talliesin> topic_interest is the one that isn't the shortcut. Also, I mistrust that as a rule for picking URIs.

17:49:36 <gk> iand, sure, I just picked the closest group I could spot.

17:49:41 <mortenf> H3:ACTION mortenf: get usage count for foaf:interest and foaf:topic_interest off jim's 6.7M triple dump

17:49:41 <dc_rdfig> Replaced comment H3.

17:49:54 <mortenf> can we adjourn now?

17:49:57 <mortenf> :)

17:50:02 <Talliesin> k.

17:50:06 <iand> fine

17:50:13 <captainjim> thanks

17:50:18 <Talliesin> Smoke 'em if you got 'em!

17:50:20 <reto> if we make foaf:interest broader we can use both for shortcut and not, so we don't need a topic_interest

17:50:22 <mortenf> of course, chatting may continue ;)

17:50:25 <iand> gotta dash now.

17:50:42 <mortenf> ----- ADJOURNED

17:50:46 <gk> Bye.

17:51:03 <mortenf> see ya'll later...

17:51:11 <iand> an observation - foaf:interest has some relation to W3C TAG's httpRange-14

17:51:21 * Talliesin informally actions himself to put down thoughts on why he thinks foaf:interest should be resurrected. Have to go now though.

17:51:23 <mortenf> right...

17:51:24 <reto> right

17:51:24 <bengee> cu

17:51:30 <iand> bye

17:51:37 <reto> bye

17:51:51 <Talliesin> Yep, httpRange-14 big time. But timbl's started quoting Dylan Thomas on that one, so I think the end is nigh ;)

17:52:37 <Talliesin> I'll try to address both sides of that in my informal self-action though...

18:25:00 <sh1mmer> hey dajobe :)

18:26:26 <dajobe> hi

18:28:02 <sh1mmer> I've been having some trouble compiling raptor on a Sparc box at Uni

18:28:10 * dajobe eating, can't chat now

18:28:12 <sh1mmer> mind helping me with that at some point?

18:28:15 <dajobe> sure, later

18:28:18 <sh1mmer> np :)

19:08:21 * dajobe mutters sparql lite

19:08:30 <dajobe> anyway, sh1mmer

19:11:02 <sh1mmer> hiya

19:11:28 <dajobe> I build raptor on a sparc solaris regularly

19:11:40 <sh1mmer> Sure

19:11:40 <dajobe> oh, phone. bbl

19:11:43 <sh1mmer> ok

19:12:43 <jhendler> DanC - my class wants to look at comments on the earlier drafts of the TAG arvhitecture -- but the archive for Jan-Mar only shows 60 March messages

19:12:50 <jhendler> any guess how we ask it for the others?

19:14:14 <jhendler> oh well, some other time...

19:17:46 * DanC sees jimh... gone already. oh well.

19:37:42 <dajobe> back. sh1mmer try again

19:38:18 <sh1mmer> :)

19:38:30 <sh1mmer> ok I just did a ./configure

19:38:36 <dajobe> er, rewind

19:38:38 <sh1mmer> no errors

19:38:39 <dajobe> what kind of system

19:38:44 * sh1mmer checks

19:38:52 * sh1mmer logged onto random sparc box

19:39:03 <dajobe> yes the arch I know. what os

19:40:12 <sh1mmer> Solaris 9

19:40:20 <sh1mmer> I know but I don't

19:40:22 <dajobe> ok, that I have and works

19:40:23 <sh1mmer> I was checking.

19:40:41 <dajobe> type uname -a

19:40:46 <sh1mmer> dajobe I am not saying it doesn't Iam just trying to trouble shoot

19:41:03 <dajobe> anyway, carry on

19:41:14 <sh1mmer> SunOS 5.9

19:41:52 <sh1mmer> ./depcomp: ./depcomp: No such file or directory

19:41:52 <sh1mmer> make[2]: *** [raptor_parse.lo] Error 127

19:42:24 <dajobe> what version of raptor is this?

19:42:40 <sh1mmer> latest

19:42:50 <dajobe> just tell me, to confirm

19:42:50 <sh1mmer> 1.3.3

19:42:52 <dajobe> ok

19:43:28 <dajobe> tar xfz ~/raptor-1.3.3.tar.gz

19:43:33 <dajobe> cd raptor-1.3.3/

19:43:36 <dajobe> ls -l depcomp

19:43:36 <dajobe> -rwxr-xr-x 1 cmdjb staff 14841 Mar 12 2004 depcomp

19:43:44 <dajobe> what deleted it?

19:44:00 <dajobe> my suspect is - sun tar

19:44:10 <sh1mmer> nope it's there

19:44:25 <dajobe> and it is executable just like the above

19:44:27 <sh1mmer> wait...

19:44:33 <sh1mmer> ca0tcr@hapy:~/redland/raptor-1.3.3> ls -l depcomp

19:44:33 <sh1mmer> lrwxrwxrwx 1 ca0tcr 110 35 Oct 13 12:46 depcomp -> /opt/sfw/share/automake-1.7/depcomp

19:44:47 <dajobe> so you've re/run automake locally

19:45:03 <sh1mmer> that doesn't exist.

19:45:07 <sh1mmer> yeah.

19:45:10 <dajobe> see the date on it

19:45:13 <dajobe> you changed it today

19:45:15 <sh1mmer> It didn't work with yours either.

19:45:23 <dajobe> this can happen when your computer's clock is broken

19:45:30 <sh1mmer> aha.

19:45:46 <sh1mmer> Yes. I get sick of bitching at the peopel with root on these boxen.

19:45:48 <dajobe> didn't work with mine?

19:46:12 <sh1mmer> No. I tried ./configure before I read the docs and did automake

19:46:31 <dajobe> you shouldn't need to run automake unless you are building from cvs

19:46:32 <sh1mmer> autogen...

19:46:35 <dajobe> ditto

19:46:38 <sh1mmer> hmm ok

19:46:43 <sh1mmer> well I tried ./configure first

19:46:56 <sh1mmer> let me delete and reinstall from the tar

19:46:58 <dajobe> can you delete the dir, re extract the tar and try configure. tell me what breaks then

19:47:31 <dajobe> ha! <sh1m> jeen well no libby either. maybe they were eaten by a bear running riot though IRLT

19:47:33 * sh1mmer doens't know why uni can't just have some linux boxen.

19:47:48 <sh1mmer> I hate tar on solaris

19:48:22 <sbp> Sun tends to do deals with unis, I think

19:48:24 * sh1mmer runs ./configure in fresh dir.

19:48:29 <sh1mmer> Yeah.

19:48:38 <sbp> bugs the crap out of me too. even ps aux is different

19:48:55 <sbp> thank goodness for ssh

19:48:56 <sh1mmer> HEFC told them they couldnt buy the cluster from sun though

19:49:08 <dajobe> there are still some reasons to run them instead of pc/x86/linux, in the hardware area

19:49:08 <sbp> whyn't?

19:49:15 <sh1mmer> So we got a nice beowulf instead. several hundred 2gig xeons.

19:49:20 <sh1mmer> dunno.

19:49:23 <sbp> cool

19:49:26 <sh1mmer> yeah.

19:49:45 <sh1mmer> My concurrent and distrobuted systems lecturer said I can have time on it if I come up with something interesting.

19:50:16 <dajobe> distributed rdf query?

19:50:32 <dajobe> or something

19:50:38 <sh1mmer> Nah they are all AI people.

19:50:48 <sh1mmer> They would want something about bat brains or somethign

19:50:57 <dajobe> lol

19:51:12 * sh1mmer grins

19:51:50 <dajobe> dajobe has changed the topic to: Semantic Web / RDF chat n hack. blog http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/ logs http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/

19:52:11 <sh1mmer> one of my favorate Phd students (just got it actaully) has stopped talking to one of the AI lecturers completely after asking "would you shut the fuck up about bats just once?"

19:52:12 <sh1mmer> heh

19:52:14 <sh1mmer> genius.

19:52:38 <dajobe> ?

19:52:39 <sh1mmer> I have to admit I wouldn't want to talk about that in the pub either.

19:53:16 <sh1mmer> This one guy is into bats big time, it's scary. But then he is an eccentric American who has suposedly worked for the NSA among others.

19:53:56 <mchncl> hehe

19:53:59 <sh1mmer> dajobe so it seems to have worked.

19:54:04 <sh1mmer> dajobe which is typical.

19:54:24 <sh1mmer> dajobe I look like an eejit because it is only my word it wasn't doing this earlier.

19:54:24 <dajobe> maybe I need to make the install instructions clearer

19:54:37 <sh1mmer> dajobe maybe it's the change of machine.

19:54:46 <dajobe> capture the logs next time I guess

19:54:51 <dajobe> at least it works !

19:55:02 <sh1mmer> oh wait. I got error on make check

19:55:18 <dajobe> possible. solaris doesn't ship with all the thigns you need

19:55:27 <dajobe> it's probably got no web library - curl

19:55:31 <dajobe> so url fetching won't

19:55:42 <dajobe> or no xml parser ;)

19:55:53 <sh1mmer> ex-46, rdfs-namespace.rdf

19:55:58 <sh1mmer> ring any bells?

19:56:03 <dajobe> no

19:56:20 <sh1mmer> hmm

19:56:43 <sh1mmer> I'll see how far along with rasqal I get

19:56:53 <sbp> dajobe: do you know of any sufficiently large (>100K triple) RDF dumps, in any format, that're online? jcowan is benchmarking CrocoPat

19:57:10 <sh1mmer> sbp ask JibberJim or crschmidt

19:57:11 <dajobe> didn't crschmidt mention one earlier today here or #foaf ?

19:57:17 <sh1mmer> sbp they both have some

19:57:25 <sh1mmer> JibberJim have > 5million

19:57:30 <sbp> I've already put notices out to them via phenny. was hoping for something more immediate

19:57:47 <dajobe> . http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/foaf/2004-10-13.html#T13-13-08

19:58:02 <sbp> ah, marvellous; thanks!

19:58:07 <dajobe> isn't email immediate?

19:58:42 <sbp> not when the recipients are asleep or down the boozer

19:58:50 <dajobe> hmm, beer

19:58:52 <sh1mmer> ooh boozer...

19:59:23 <sbp> not that I'm accusing jim or libby of anything like that. ahem

19:59:34 <sh1mmer> so now the question is... do I booze at home with my compiler or drag the lads to the pub

19:59:55 <sh1mmer> sbp you didn't even mention libby of that until right now.

20:00:16 <libby> cheey sods

20:00:18 <phenny> libby: 19:44Z <sbp> ask libby where her scutter dumps--SQL or RDF/XML, if she has any--are, for jcowan, please?

20:00:22 <sbp> I suppose that is somewhat incriminating

20:00:28 <libby> I'm watching an improving foreign film

20:00:29 * sbp flees

20:00:40 <sh1mmer> libby has it improved yet?

20:01:31 <libby> yes indeed

20:02:44 <sh1mmer> dajobe so RASQAL is bitching about configure: error: Raptor sources missing in parent directory - cannot use internal

20:02:56 <dajobe> raptor needs to be installed OR

20:03:02 <dajobe> in a sibling directory called 'raptor'

20:03:07 <sh1mmer> installed ala make install ?

20:03:11 <dajobe> yes

20:03:31 <dajobe> and wherever you installed it the PREFIX/bin has to be in your path so it can find raptor-config there

20:05:07 <sh1mmer> Ok, dumb question. Does make install take arguments or does it prompt for install location?

20:05:15 <dajobe> neither

20:05:19 <dajobe> in the documentation

20:05:25 <dajobe> it tells you ./configure --prefix=/somewhere

20:05:27 * sh1mmer looks harded

20:05:33 <sh1mmer> ah crap.

20:05:51 <dajobe> hmm, or it should

20:05:58 <sh1mmer> ok. I shall actually read, rather than skim.

20:06:06 * sh1mmer being a bit useless and clingy

20:06:28 <asac_> asac_ is now known as asac

20:06:47 <dajobe> best to ./configure --prefix=$HOME/raptor; make; make install; PATH=$HOME/raptor/bin:$PATH

20:06:59 <dajobe> then do similar s/raptor/rasqal/

20:07:02 <dajobe> or put them in the same place

20:07:14 <sh1mmer> okie, sounds good.

20:07:34 <sh1mmer> It does have --prefix but in the section for autogen not configure

20:07:37 <sh1mmer> might want to fix that.

20:07:54 <dajobe> yeah, I don't document the default options that configure has

20:07:58 <dajobe> configure --help shows them

20:08:26 <sh1mmer> never used that before.

20:08:52 <sh1mmer> I don't normally find myself installing in a home directory though

20:15:42 <crschmidt> Indeed, I did mention that earlier in #foaf, thanks dajobe

20:17:26 * dajobe sees all, knows all

20:17:42 <sh1mmer> dajobe thanks for your patience :)

20:17:55 <dajobe> I should add more configure info though

20:17:55 <sbp> even the president changing, &c.? must be quite some burden

20:18:38 <dajobe> the president of irc? still DanC

20:19:05 <sbp> Texans, Texans, Texans...

20:19:16 <dajobe> lines: %lines: Mbytes: %bytes: nick

20:19:16 <dajobe> ------: ------: ------: ------: ----

20:19:16 <dajobe> 51654: 7.85%: 3.99: 9.96%: danc

20:19:18 * DanC is confused

20:19:23 <DanC> ah

20:19:39 * DanC is not a Texan

20:19:53 <sbp> really? hmm, I wonder where I got that impression from

20:21:59 <sbp> ah, http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/8608austin/

20:22:30 * sbp readjusts his world-view slightly

20:22:55 <DanC> Texas is a strange planet. I spent a few years there, but I'm not from there.

20:23:44 <dajobe> austin seemed ok

20:24:52 <DanC> Austin is pretty nice, yes.

20:48:52 <tav> tav is now known as tav|offline

22:06:39 <DanC> ping? hello world?

22:06:41 <DanC> .t

22:06:43 <phenny> Wed, 13 Oct 2004 22:06:42 GMT

22:06:53 <KjetilK> pong! :-)

22:07:13 <KjetilK> Hello DanC!

22:07:22 <DanC> hi

22:07:26 * DanC can't reach w3.org

22:07:47 <KjetilK> no problems here

22:07:55 <eaon> works here

22:08:15 <libby> and here...

22:08:28 <KjetilK> I was just struggling with XSLT, so I had the spec open

22:08:50 <KjetilK> there's life! :-)

22:08:55 <DanC> 14 p15-0.core01.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (66.28.4.61) 33.943 ms 32.230 ms 33.456 ms

22:08:55 <DanC> 15 * *

22:09:09 <DanC> traceroute shows a problem there.

22:09:50 <libby> danc, congrats on sparql

22:09:54 <libby> record time

22:09:58 <libby> :)

22:10:24 <DanC> record time? we started around Feb. oh, you're being snide. nyeah.

22:10:35 <libby> no, I'm not being snide!

22:10:53 <libby> it's very fast

22:10:57 <DanC> hmm

22:11:07 <libby> well, I thought so

22:11:33 * DanC yearns for the good old days, when 2 weeks was a long time to wait between drafts

22:11:58 <libby> heh

22:12:42 <DanC> well, thanks, I guess.

22:13:41 * DanC tries to remember where those "internet weather report" sites are...

22:13:47 <libby> it's very cool that's it's getting there, it'll be a big boost to applications and things when done I reckon

22:14:13 <KjetilK> internet weather report?

22:14:23 <DanC> e.g. http://www.noc.ucla.edu/networking/weather.html

22:14:40 <KjetilK> cool

22:15:36 <DanC> and http://www.internettrafficreport.com/namerica.htm

22:16:20 <jsled>http://www.internetpulse.net/

22:16:22 <dc_rdfig> J: http://www.internetpulse.net/ from jsled

22:16:28 <jsled> bah. damnit.

22:17:09 <DanC> can you folks reach p15-0.core01.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com

22:17:17 <DanC> J:=http://example/

22:17:17 <dc_rdfig> Replaced URL of J.

22:17:21 <DanC> J:|mischump

22:17:22 <dc_rdfig> Titled item J.

22:17:43 <KjetilK> nope

22:18:08 <jsled> can't resolve = can't traceroute.

22:18:11 <DanC> ok, well, that helps my sanity. But I still feel powerless.

22:18:21 <DanC> p15-0.core01.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (66.28.4.61)

22:18:46 <KjetilK> 66.28.4.61 pings

22:18:54 <jsled> 105.177 msec from northern VT.

22:19:38 <jsled> nevermind; wrong address -- similar name

22:19:49 <KjetilK> 11 p14-0.core02.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (66.28.4.86) 131.032 ms 133.153 ms 132.508 ms

22:19:49 <KjetilK> 12 *

22:19:50 <KjetilK> 1

22:21:00 <DanC> ugh... traceroute shows my packets leaving KC, going down to dallas, then back to KC, up to chicago, and then into the bit bucket.

22:21:55 <DanC> everestkc.net, kscymo02.us.bb.verio.net, dllstx09.us.bb.verio.net, dfw01.atlas.cogentco.com, ord01.atlas.cogentco.com

22:22:25 <DanC> ah... I can ping www.w3.org now...

22:22:27 <KjetilK> from internetpulse.net, it seems like cogent is having some problems all over...

22:22:35 <KjetilK> w00t

22:23:05 <DanC> you found cogent problem reports? where? exact URI, pls?

22:23:24 <KjetilK> nothing concrete

22:23:41 <KjetilK> eh, it is just high latency

22:24:25 <DanC> I'd still like the URI

22:24:31 <DanC> of whatever you're looking at

22:24:46 <KjetilK> the mischumped URI: http://www.internetpulse.net/

22:25:19 <DanC> ah, indeed, there's COGENT right at the bottom. I didn't see it when I 1st looked.

22:25:48 <KjetilK> (the "cardiogram" there looks like there is a heart problem, though... :-) )

22:29:56 <DanC> well, I've got enought access to w3.org to make progress now.

22:30:02 <DanC> but I'm struggling mightily with http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004lc/lc-status-report.html

22:33:10 <KjetilK> struggling, how?

23:11:42 * Emmy good night - day all :)

23:59:57 <crschmidt> I'll be transcribing the presidential debates again tonight in #presdebates , if anyone is interested. One hour to start time.