Semantic Web Interest Group IRC Chat Logs for 2004-12-10

01:03:47 <sethl> hi crschmidt, did I steal your foaf + thunderbird idea? :)

01:33:12 <edtraffic> edtraffic is now known as edsu

01:53:07 <crschmidt> sethl: Not thunderbird: mutt

01:53:10 <phenny> crschmidt: 01:02Z <jsled> tell crschmidt that the useless syntax [like ^addns <ns> _is_ <url>] should be optional...

01:54:13 <crschmidt> sethl: and I don't think you stole it from me anyway: I know of at least one other person who has it set by default in their client

01:56:44 <crschmidt> sethl: Yeah, definitely not the first, or anywhere close: http://rdfweb.org/topic/ConnectingUsenetWithFoaf dates back to Mar 2003 with mentions of the X-FOAF header

01:57:34 <sethl> ok, just curious

01:57:50 <sethl> thanks for the good link!

01:57:54 <sethl> trying to collect it all

01:58:39 <sethl> what's a better header? X-FOAF , X-FOAF-URI, or X-FOAF-Uri ?

01:58:42 <crschmidt> Ah, you got set up with lorebot eventually, i see

01:59:00 * KjetilK has set his KMail up with X-FOAF...

01:59:09 <crschmidt> I'm pretty sure headers are case insensitive.

01:59:27 <sbp> yosi, DanC, timbl--around?

01:59:49 <crschmidt> I don't see why using X-FOAF would prevent later using something like X-FOAF-Mbox-Sha1sum or something like that

02:00:07 <crschmidt> so iand's concern in that regard isn't something i neccesarily agree with

02:00:26 <crschmidt> seems that people have already started using X-FOAF, so I'm going to stick with that (and maybe get off my ass and start writing some tools with it)

02:00:43 <sethl> I think critical mass will decide this

02:00:50 <sethl> I saw X-FOAF first, as well

02:00:55 <sethl> I'll change mine back to X-FOAF

02:01:06 <sethl> someone sent me a trackback for setting up Apple's Mail.app

02:01:17 <crschmidt> Oh, really? peepo was asking about that yesterday

02:01:33 <crschmidt> by the way, i would comment on your blog if your commenting system didn't suck :P I've wanted to comment like 4-5 times

02:01:54 * crschmidt doesn't want to set up another identity

02:02:12 <sethl> did you have a page for the mutt integration?

02:02:23 <sethl> trust me, if I didn't get 234234234 comment spams a day, I wouldn't have that

02:02:31 <crschmidt> yeah, i'm sure

02:02:40 <crschmidt> mutt is just my_hdr X-FOAF: http://crschmidt.net/foaf.rdf

02:02:45 <crschmidt> in the .muttrc

02:03:11 <crschmidt> phenny: tell peepo http://blogger.xs4all.nl/foz/archive/2004/12/09/17009.aspx is for Mail.app X-FOAF header

02:03:13 <phenny> crschmidt: I'll pass that on for you when peepo is around.

02:04:34 <sethl> so I would love if you gave me comments on the blog

02:04:39 <sethl> typekey is very easy to setup

02:04:48 <sethl> bonus is you get FOAF for your typekey account

02:04:48 <crschmidt> yeah, but it requires yet another login

02:05:00 <sethl> whatever.. make it crschmidt/crschmidt :)

02:05:09 <sethl> I hear ya

02:05:14 <sethl> I'm open to suggestions, too

02:05:16 <crschmidt> Plus, I like to whine

02:05:26 <crschmidt> Typekey just gives me something new to whine about ;)

02:05:45 <sethl> a good forum for whining is my blog comments :)

02:06:14 <sethl> all you need to add in .muttrc is [my_hdr X-FOAF: http://crschmidt.net/foaf.rdf]

02:06:17 <sethl> is that correct?

02:06:21 <crschmidt> yep

02:06:24 <crschmidt> I'm writing a blgo post now

02:07:17 <sethl> plus, bonus is that I syndicate my comments as RDF, and make FOAF (with mbox1_shasum) for the author of comments

02:07:26 <sethl> ooh ooh... trackback me

02:07:31 <crschmidt> pfft

02:07:40 * crschmidt points to http://zilla.livejournal.org/1613

02:08:05 <crschmidt> Tell someone to review that and put it in, like they've been telling me they will for over a year now

02:08:09 <sethl> ack, LJ can't trackback?

02:08:28 <crschmidt> Nope, I gave em code 16 months ago, opened a bug in the tracker with full implementation 9 months ago

02:08:39 <sethl> sounds like the tomcat people

02:08:49 <sethl> I send them good code w/ tests, and they never put it in

02:09:01 * crschmidt had to fight every day for a month to get even the minimal FOAF info LJ has into place

02:09:47 <sethl> cool, take your fight to Flickr.. they said "nope, not gonna do it"

02:09:59 <sethl> btw, what is your blog?

02:10:07 <crschmidt> .g crschmidt

02:10:19 <sethl> ?

02:10:24 * crschmidt pokes phenny

02:10:24 <phenny> crschmidt: http://www.livejournal.com/users/crschmidt/

02:10:30 <sethl> what is phenny?

02:10:30 <crschmidt> thanks, phenny

02:10:33 <phenny> Why, don't mention it.

02:10:38 <crschmidt> phenny is sbp's wonderful wonderful bot

02:10:42 <crschmidt> phenny: help

02:10:44 <phenny> I'm datum's replacement, phenny. My commands include:

02:10:48 <phenny> cp, ety, g, head, mw, pc, swhack, t, tell, thesaurus, val, w, xena

02:10:52 <phenny> For help: 'phenny: help command?' My owner is sbp.

02:10:55 <phenny> Documentation: http://inamidst.com/phenny/

02:11:01 <crschmidt> .val http://www.w3.org/

02:11:05 <phenny> http://www.w3.org/ is Valid

02:11:05 <dc_swig> A: http://www.w3.org/ from phenny

02:11:17 <crschmidt> A:| W3C Homepage

02:11:18 <dc_swig> Titled item A.

02:11:23 <crschmidt> A: Just doing a little phenny tour for sethl

02:11:23 <dc_swig> Added comment A1.

02:11:45 <crschmidt> logger: chump a

02:11:45 <crschmidt> A:See [http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/swig/2004-12-10#T02-11-45|discussion]

02:11:45 <dc_swig> Added comment A2.

02:11:56 <sethl> love the chump

02:12:42 <sethl> now we just need X-FOAF into gmail

02:30:30 <crschmidt> sethl: I tried to pingback your page, and... ooh, look, there it is

02:30:37 <crschmidt> you seperate comments and trackbacks, that confused me

02:30:41 <sethl> I was just typing to you, I just got the emails

02:30:52 <sethl> goooooo trackback!

02:31:01 <crschmidt> I used to think trackback was good

02:31:24 <sethl> and now it's uncool?

02:31:58 <crschmidt> Eh, I got pretty soured on it

02:32:04 <crschmidt> I had it set up from my LJ for 6 months

02:32:06 <sethl> so far so good for me!

02:32:12 <crschmidt> Quite a pain to set up and maintain

02:32:13 <sethl> it's very helpful

02:32:17 <crschmidt> I never got a single trackback

02:32:41 <sethl> pain to maintain? I never had to do anything other than "enable trackback: yes"

02:32:47 <sethl> course, I'm using MT

02:32:48 <crschmidt> On LiveJournal?

02:32:50 <crschmidt> :)

02:33:09 <crschmidt> I had to do some math to keep my posts in order in my wordpress (which was the trackback backend) and my journal

02:33:23 <crschmidt> and if the post order mismatched, then the trackbacks would go to the wrong post

02:33:30 <crschmidt> (not that it matters, because like i said, i never got one)

02:33:48 <sethl> ahh... no wonder you got all confused. well, in the wild, it works pretty well

02:34:19 <sethl> thanks for the post, that makes thunderbird (+ mozilla mail), mutt, and Mail.app

02:34:27 <crschmidt> Well, I've never gotten a single trackback on my weblog either

02:34:30 <crschmidt> .g crschmidt wordpress

02:34:34 <phenny> crschmidt wordpress: http://www.livejournal.com/users/crschmidt/252710.html?thread=1152806

02:34:39 <crschmidt> but that doesn't really surprise me, since no one reads my stuff :p

02:34:44 <crschmidt> .g crschmidt inurl:wordpress

02:34:47 <phenny> crschmidt inurl:wordpress: http://crschmidt.net/wordpress/

02:35:34 <sethl> you have too many blogs :)

02:36:11 * crschmidt shrugs. The LJ is the main one, but it lacks the technical features I like: categories, trackback, etc.

02:36:29 <crschmidt> However, the only people who ever comment on my journal/blog at all are LJ users, so moving entirely to wordpress would make me feel really lonely

02:37:04 <sethl> good point

02:37:20 <sethl> which is the more technical one? I'll add that one to my blogroll

02:37:23 <crschmidt> Also, support for commenting on LJ is way better than anything else I've ever seen

02:38:04 <crschmidt> I cross post everything from one to the other, other than mobile photo posts which only go to the wordpress. http://crschmidt.net/wordpress/archives/category/technical/ is just tech posts though

02:39:42 <crschmidt> phenny: tell sh1mmer to check out http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/2003/HPL-2003-142.html , which sounds a lot like that stuff he's always talking about, when I say "huh wha?" and doze off

02:39:44 <phenny> crschmidt: yeah, sure, whatever

02:42:10 <crschmidt> But yeah, very few other packages have support for threads, and even if they do, they don't send emails to the person you're replying to

02:46:00 <sethl> what does the tell sh1mmer do?

02:46:48 <crschmidt> sethl: you saw it once: the next time that person talks, it'll send them a message about it

02:47:06 <sethl> ah, gotcha

02:47:09 <sethl> thx

02:48:28 <crschmidt> this: http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/swig/2004-12-04.html#T00-09-32 was from the message i sent you here: http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/swig/2004-12-02.html#T01-33-25

02:50:43 * crschmidt is tempted to redo his wordpress layout to match his LJ layout

05:44:15 <sbp>http://inamidst.com/n3p/

05:44:15 <dc_swig> B: http://inamidst.com/n3p/ from sbp

05:44:25 <sbp> B:|New RDF Grammar-Based N3 Parser and Test Suite

05:44:25 <dc_swig> Titled item B.

05:44:51 <sbp> B:See also the [http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-cwm-talk/2004OctDec/0029|announcement on public-cwm-talk] which contains extensive installation instructions and notes.

05:44:51 <dc_swig> Added comment B1.

08:11:28 <verbosus>http://semanticweb.deit.univpm.it/swap2004/

08:11:29 <dc_swig> C: http://semanticweb.deit.univpm.it/swap2004/ from verbosus

08:11:56 <verbosus> C: Semantic Web Applications and Perspective, workshop in Ancona (Italy)

08:11:57 <dc_swig> Added comment C1.

08:12:24 <verbosus> C: About to go: Danny Ayers should begin his presentation shortly (he’s registering this very moment)

08:12:24 <dc_swig> Added comment C2.

08:22:40 <verbosus> Giovanni Tummariello is reading his introduction

08:23:07 <verbosus> as I was saying over in #rdfig, sort of a crash course on the Semantic Web

08:23:14 <verbosus> and related technologies

08:26:27 <verbosus> ’morning tlr

08:26:37 <verbosus> or ’whatever, depending on your timezone :-p

08:26:56 <tlr> morning, indeed.

08:27:07 <verbosus> Luxemburg

08:27:12 <verbosus> is it +1 GMT?

08:27:17 <tlr> yes

08:33:41 <verbosus> Danny goes on stage

08:34:27 <verbosus> it’s a privilege to be here, and stuff...

08:34:44 <peepo> is chaals there?

08:34:48 <verbosus> nope

08:35:05 <verbosus> there’s Oreste Signore from the italian W3C office

08:35:29 <verbosus> ’morning alessio

08:35:38 <alessio> ciao a tutti

08:36:10 <verbosus> procrastination, as the projector warms up

08:36:14 <alessio> English here? Sorry - hi to everyone

08:36:44 <verbosus> RDF/XML code

08:36:49 <verbosus> his FOAF file

08:38:11 <verbosus> shows a Van Dijck painting

08:38:16 <verbosus> it’s about relations

08:39:32 <verbosus> if you give things names, you can talk about them and describe them

08:40:10 <verbosus>http://www.semtext.org/2004-12/ancona/docs/city.html

08:40:10 <dc_swig> D: http://www.semtext.org/2004-12/ancona/docs/city.html from verbosus

08:40:41 <verbosus> D: A Van Dijk painting, depicting a couple

08:40:41 <dc_swig> Added comment D1.

08:41:08 <verbosus> whatever, I get the spelling wrong each time

08:41:58 <verbosus> D: The Arnolfini Portrait, Jan Van Dyck

08:41:58 <dc_swig> Added comment D2.

08:42:32 <verbosus> D1: A Van Dyck painting, depicting a couple. The Semantic Web is all about relations.

08:42:32 <dc_swig> Replaced comment D1.

08:44:34 <verbosus> part of the key of the web’s success is, of course, the 404 code

08:44:53 <verbosus> the ability for the system not to fail even if a single resource is not available is one of its keys

08:45:41 <verbosus>http://www.semtext.org/2004-12/ancona/

08:45:42 <dc_swig> E: http://www.semtext.org/2004-12/ancona/ from verbosus

08:45:50 <verbosus> E: Danny Ayers slides for this worksho

08:45:50 <dc_swig> Added comment E1.

08:46:02 <verbosus> E1: Danny Ayers’ slides for this workshop

08:46:02 <dc_swig> Replaced comment E1.

08:46:49 <verbosus> D1: A Van Dyck painting, depicting a couple. The Semantic Web is all about relations.

08:46:49 <dc_swig> Replaced comment D1.

08:47:40 <verbosus> D: A Van Eyck painting, depicting a couple

08:47:41 <dc_swig> Added comment D3.

08:48:11 <verbosus> oh, what a fucking mess

08:48:40 <verbosus> alessio: sorry for the French :-)

08:48:47 <benja_> D3:

08:48:48 <dc_swig> (verbosus) A Van Eyck painting, depicting a couple

08:49:28 <verbosus> ’lo

08:49:48 <benja_> D3:""

08:49:48 <dc_swig> Deleted comment D3.

08:49:51 <benja_> D2:""

08:49:51 <dc_swig> Deleted comment D2.

08:49:55 <verbosus> benja_: thanks

08:50:26 <verbosus> Danny is still going on about relations, identity and connections on the Semantic Web

08:50:33 <benja_> D:|A Van Eyck painting, depicting a couple

08:50:34 <dc_swig> Titled item D.

08:50:48 <benja_> D1:The Semantic Web is all about relations.

08:50:48 <dc_swig> Replaced comment D1.

08:51:58 <benja_> (hope that's what you wanted :))

08:52:07 <verbosus> XML: lots of angle brackets

08:52:07 <dc_swig> Label XML not found.

08:52:57 <verbosus> metadata is data about data, so it’s data itslef

08:52:59 <verbosus> itself

08:54:00 <verbosus> detractors to the SW: why bother, when AI has failed years ago?

08:54:41 <verbosus> AI has failed in washing machines, argues Ayers

08:58:34 <verbosus> most people would say we don’t need metadata (in the SW sense) because we have Google

08:59:39 <verbosus> it’s all about making this connection more explicit

09:00:42 <verbosus> RDF is a technology with lots of different facets

09:01:19 <verbosus> it’s a simple model underneath, but there’s lots of stuff build upon it

09:01:40 <verbosus> that’s the reason it may be confusing, especially in its RDF/XML serialization

09:02:38 <verbosus>http://semtext.org/pets/profile.xml

09:02:39 <dc_swig> F: http://semtext.org/pets/profile.xml from verbosus

09:02:56 <verbosus> F:|An RDF/XML document with a stylesheet, representing Sambuca, one of Danny’s pets

09:02:57 <dc_swig> Titled item F.

09:03:40 <verbosus>http://ideagraph.net/xmlns/pets/

09:03:40 <dc_swig> G: http://ideagraph.net/xmlns/pets/ from verbosus

09:03:54 <verbosus> G:|Pet Profiles for FOAF and RDF

09:03:55 <dc_swig> Titled item G.

09:08:45 <verbosus> one semantic web application increases the power and knowledge of the whole semantic web

09:09:03 <verbosus> very time something is added, the semantic web as a whole increases

09:09:10 <verbosus> s/very/every

09:09:37 <verbosus> that was it

09:10:05 <verbosus> conclusion: too many notes and poor english (says Ayers)

09:10:25 <verbosus> question time: RSS and stuff

09:14:36 <verbosus> RDF and its serializations: the syntax doesn’t matter, it’s the model that’s important

09:14:45 <verbosus> RDF is an elephant, apparently

09:15:23 <verbosus> out goes Danny Ayers

09:16:09 <verbosus> in come Alessandro Oltramari, I think

09:16:22 <verbosus> (wasn’t introducted and didn’t say his name)

09:17:02 <verbosus> he also doesn’t look like he’s Roberta Ferrario at all (Roberta is a female name)

09:17:35 <verbosus> the link to the PDF paper doesn’t work for me

09:18:04 <verbosus> well, he’s talking about the conceptual bridge for meaning negotiation

09:19:03 <verbosus> DOLCE is a “foundational ontology”

09:19:25 <verbosus> is meant to characterize the meaning of words, on a high level

09:19:59 <verbosus> the BDI model: Beliefs, Desires, Intentions

09:23:28 <verbosus> we’re talking about mental objects, but there’s a wall of forumals on-screen and it’s unclear as to how they relate

09:23:37 <verbosus> s/forumals/formulas/

09:24:37 <verbosus> he’s describing the mental state of “desire”

09:28:32 <verbosus>http://www.loa-cnr.it/DOLCE.html

09:28:32 <dc_swig> H: http://www.loa-cnr.it/DOLCE.html from verbosus

09:28:47 <verbosus> H:|Descriptive Ontology for Linguistic and Cognitive Engineering

09:28:47 <dc_swig> Titled item H.

09:36:28 <verbosus> out goes Oltramari

09:36:35 <verbosus> in comes Dario Bonino

09:36:55 <verbosus>http://semanticweb.deit.univpm.it/swap2004/cameraready/bonino.pdf

09:36:55 <dc_swig> I: http://semanticweb.deit.univpm.it/swap2004/cameraready/bonino.pdf from verbosus

09:37:22 <verbosus> I:|(PDF) H-DOSE, an Holistic Distributed Open Semantic Elaboration Platform

09:37:22 <dc_swig> Titled item I.

09:38:28 <verbosus> hello, iand

09:38:50 <verbosus> Dario says the current SW is platform centric

09:38:53 <iand> hi verbosus

09:39:14 <verbosus> iand: I’m taking notes from over here -> http://semanticweb.deit.univpm.it/swap2004/

09:40:05 <iand> cool

09:44:10 <benja_> all: am I talking utf-8? äöü

09:44:19 <benja_> (these should be vowels-with-dots)

09:44:30 <verbosus> benja_: yes

09:44:31 <md-afk> md-afk is now known as PhUrl

09:44:35 <benja_> good, thanks :)

09:44:41 <verbosus> do you see this one: ∞ ?

09:44:45 <benja_> nope

09:44:51 <alessio> me neither

09:45:07 <benja_> a-with-^, then H^ with white background, then ?

09:45:14 <verbosus> nope

09:45:18 <verbosus> it was an infinity symbol

09:45:31 <benja_> not even close ;)

09:45:35 <verbosus> this H-DOSE thing soounds very interesting

09:45:42 <verbosus> benja_: well, it was meant to be :-)

09:45:50 <verbosus> I’m using UTF-8

09:46:00 <verbosus> I think so, anyway

09:46:37 <verbosus> it’s way too hot in here

09:46:59 <verbosus> ’morning, captainjim

09:47:13 <PhUrl> morning

09:47:15 <benja_> so I can write, but not read UTF-8

09:47:20 <benja_> or something

09:47:28 <benja_> it's all correct in the logs

09:47:31 <verbosus> benja_: it may be a problem with the font you’re currently using

09:47:41 <verbosus> which might not have the proper glyph

09:47:47 <benja_> verbosus: true

09:47:56 <benja_> can you say ä?

09:48:00 <verbosus> ä

09:48:05 <benja_> nope, not the font

09:48:36 <verbosus> benja_: what client are you using?

09:48:40 <benja_> irssi

09:49:04 <alessio> using xchat and fiddling with fonts, doesn't fix it

09:49:19 <alessio> xchat on Linux Fedora Core 3, should be all UTF8

09:49:35 <verbosus> XChat Aqua on OS X, over here

09:49:53 <benja_> alessio: did you get my ä as an a-diaeresis? how about verbosus'?

09:50:10 <alessio> benja_, you are ok, verbosus is not

09:50:18 <benja_> alessio: ouch

09:50:28 <alessio> (I mean - you "look" ok, sorry :-)

09:50:34 <verbosus> alessio: I’m all right according to the logs

09:50:41 <benja_> verbosus: so am I

09:50:46 <verbosus>http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/swig/2004-12-10.html

09:50:46 <dc_swig> J: http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/swig/2004-12-10.html from verbosus

09:50:51 <benja_> but probably I'm not utf-8 and you are

09:50:52 <verbosus> crap

09:51:18 <verbosus> benja_: shall I “D:""” that?

09:51:27 <verbosus> sorry, “J:""”?

09:52:01 <benja_> verbosus: you can change the uri with D:=newuri

09:52:24 <benja_> er, J:=

09:52:28 <benja_> but you can't remove it

09:52:41 <verbosus> I see

09:53:02 <verbosus> sorry: I’m not familiar with the system, plus I’m a moron :-)

09:53:17 <benja_> verbosus: you're not the only one =)

09:53:48 <alessio> guys, I promise one day I will spend some time on understanding this

09:53:52 <alessio> not today though :-)

09:54:20 <verbosus> does this mean you’re going to move on to browsing pr0n sites?

09:54:43 <verbosus> libby!

09:54:56 <verbosus> Danilo actually build this app

09:55:07 <verbosus> which sounds amazing, from his description

09:55:44 <verbosus> question time

09:55:53 <verbosus> what was the motivation for this projecT?

09:56:50 <verbosus> out goes Danilo, in comes Cristiano Fugazza

09:57:28 <verbosus>http://semanticweb.deit.univpm.it/swap2004/cameraready/fugazza.pdf

09:57:29 <dc_swig> K: http://semanticweb.deit.univpm.it/swap2004/cameraready/fugazza.pdf from verbosus

09:57:49 <verbosus> K:|(PDF) Semantics-aware privacy and access control: motivation and preliminary results

09:57:49 <dc_swig> Titled item K.

09:58:20 <verbosus> K: By E. Damiani, S. De Capitani di Vimercati, C. Fugazza, and P. Samarati

09:58:20 <dc_swig> Added comment K1.

09:58:50 <verbosus> ’morning HannesGassert

09:59:11 <verbosus> I’m currently flooding the channel with notes and general nonsense from http://semanticweb.deit.univpm.it/swap2004/

09:59:16 <verbosus> which I’m currently attending

10:00:30 <HannesGassert> HannesGassert is now known as hg

10:01:04 <benja_> I just tried to convert my terminal to UTF-8, but the result is that every apotrophe from verbosus is turned into a *five* character sequence

10:01:17 <libby> verbosus!!

10:01:20 <libby> how are you?

10:01:28 <libby> not seen you for ages

10:01:44 <verbosus> yeah, I’ve been absent for a while

10:01:57 <verbosus> I launched an internet radio and became a rockstar! :-)

10:02:14 <verbosus> libby: I’m wearing the SWAD-E t-shirt, thanks for that

10:03:07 <verbosus> I am going to announce the chat during the coffee break

10:03:31 <verbosus> libby: how’s things in Bristol?

10:04:18 <libby> excellent on all counts :)

10:04:24 <libby> good in bristol thanks

10:04:40 <libby> just wrapping up swad-e

10:04:47 <verbosus> cool: I’d like to come back there soon

10:06:27 <libby> yeah, that'd be cool

10:09:17 <verbosus> heh: so you’re still working at ILRT?

10:09:31 <verbosus> Cristiano Fugazza is talking about P3P, meanwhile

10:09:49 <verbosus> and I introduced Christian Morbidoni to the wild wild ESW wiki

10:09:56 <libby> heh, well, since you ask...I'm leaving at the end of the year

10:09:58 <alessio> How related is P3P to RDF/Semantic?

10:10:12 <verbosus> alessio: good question

10:10:14 <libby> of course - the Italian sw workshop. excellent

10:10:33 <verbosus> libby: what are you going to do next?

10:10:41 <alessio> Probably P3P stores info in RDF triplets, but then...

10:10:48 <verbosus> alessio

10:10:53 <verbosus> nope

10:10:53 <libby> working for asemantics.com

10:11:00 <verbosus> asemantics!

10:11:03 <verbosus> they’re in Rome!

10:11:16 <verbosus> are you moving over here, then?

10:11:20 <tlr> Actually, it is possible to represent P3P in RDF -- there's a schema to do that somewhere on w3.org.

10:11:38 <verbosus> tlr: yes, but I think the main serialization is just plain XML, isn’t it

10:11:52 <tlr> Yup. That's why I said "to represent" it in RDF. ;-)

10:12:01 <verbosus> :-)

10:12:16 <libby> no, I'll be the bristol office. but I'll be visiting I think :)

10:13:50 * benja_ tried various instructions to get utf-8 to work, and the result is that I still cannot read verbosus' apostrophes, but now I also cannot read my own äs

10:14:52 <benja_> oh well -- I can read the ones I send now. Perhaps I'm actually sending utf-8 -- but perhaps not -- who knows =)

10:15:16 <verbosus> coffee break

10:15:20 <verbosus> back in 15 minutes

10:32:28 <verbosus> back

10:33:35 <verbosus>http://semanticweb.deit.univpm.it/swap2004/cameraready/bouquet.pdf

10:33:36 <dc_swig> L: http://semanticweb.deit.univpm.it/swap2004/cameraready/bouquet.pdf from verbosus

10:34:06 <verbosus> L:|(PDF) Peer-toPeer Semantic Coordination

10:34:06 <dc_swig> Titled item L.

10:34:11 <verbosus> L: by P. Bouquet, L. Serafini, S. Zanobini

10:34:12 <dc_swig> Added comment L1.

10:34:35 <verbosus> ’morning dajobe

10:35:32 <dajobe> hi

10:36:02 <CaptSolo_> hi all :)

10:41:28 <verbosus> out goes Paolo Bouquet, in comes Max Jacob

10:41:41 <verbosus>http://semanticweb.deit.univpm.it/swap2004/cameraready/jacob.pdf

10:41:41 <dc_swig> M: http://semanticweb.deit.univpm.it/swap2004/cameraready/jacob.pdf from verbosus

10:41:59 <verbosus> M:|(PDF) RDF in the Semantic Hifi European project

10:41:59 <dc_swig> Titled item M.

10:42:25 <verbosus> M: by Max Jacob

10:42:26 <dc_swig> Added comment M1.

10:42:49 <verbosus> Max works at IRCAM, which deals with music + technology

10:43:49 <verbosus> they have lots of digital systems to fetch metadata from music files

10:46:04 <CaptSolo_> ah, it's the Italian workshop?

10:47:44 <libby> yep maybe worth putting it in the channel title

10:48:35 <libby> libby has changed the topic to: Italian SW web workshop today: http://semanticweb.deit.univpm.it/swap2004/ -- Semantic Web Interest Group hack-n-chat --- UTF-8 charset please --- weblog: http://swig.xmlhack.com/ --- chatlog: http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/swig/ --- please identify with 'nickserv'

10:48:53 <verbosus> thanks for that

10:49:12 <libby> np

10:49:14 <verbosus> this music + digital stuff is incredibly cool

10:49:28 <verbosus> Max hasn’t yet reported about the connection with the SW, though

10:49:41 <libby> heh. I'm sure there's one somewhere

10:49:54 <CaptSolo_> hi libby :)

10:50:26 <libby> hi capt!

10:53:27 <verbosus> libby, the hook between max and the SW might be musicbrainz

10:54:24 <verbosus> he’s now talking about audio fingerprint

10:54:32 <verbosus> which is a ultra-compressed version of an audio file

10:54:59 <verbosus> which might be used to identify an audio file, instead of using a checksum of the file

10:55:43 <libby> interesting

10:56:01 <verbosus> he’s talking about an app called AudioGrabber

10:56:02 <libby> someone recently was talking about doing that with images too

10:57:03 <verbosus> cool

10:57:23 <verbosus> he's basically working on a technology which should help recognizing and identifying audio files

10:57:50 <verbosus> he says they need a query language standard for RDF

10:58:03 <verbosus> which might be like SquishQL, but with functions

11:01:40 <libby> perhaps sparql does that?

11:02:01 <verbosus> (which I do not know)

11:02:06 <verbosus> I will report to Max later

11:02:15 <verbosus> libby, do you have any references on SparQL?

11:02:32 <libby> one sec...

11:02:46 <verbosus> found: http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-rdf-sparql-query-20041012/

11:02:58 <CaptSolo_> libby: who was the person talking about doing it with images?

11:03:11 <libby> sorry I can;t remember capt :(

11:03:39 <CaptSolo_> any clues how to find it?

11:03:41 <verbosus> cool

11:03:53 <verbosus> now there’s the platypus wiki guys

11:05:44 <libby> sorry capt, I've been all over the place recently and someone probably just mentionned the idea

11:07:12 <verbosus> ok, out goes Max Jacob

11:07:18 <verbosus> in come the Platypus wiki guys

11:07:52 <verbosus> libby, I reported SparQL to Max, he’s very interested

11:08:07 <verbosus>http://platypuswiki.sourceforge.net/

11:08:07 <dc_swig> N: http://platypuswiki.sourceforge.net/ from verbosus

11:08:15 <libby> cool. maybe he can get in touch

11:08:21 <verbosus> N:|Platypus Wiki, the Semantic Wiki Wiki Web

11:08:21 <dc_swig> Titled item N.

11:08:29 <verbosus> libby, with you or with Andy Seaborne?

11:08:50 <libby> not me :) I'm an interested bystander :)

11:10:04 <dajobe> heh

11:10:23 <verbosus> I told him to email Andy

11:35:17 <verbosus> sorry, the internet connection just died

11:35:22 <verbosus> but we’re back

11:35:36 <verbosus> now there’s an interesting presentation about Virtual Environments and the SW

11:36:01 <verbosus>http://semanticweb.deit.univpm.it/swap2004/cameraready/ruffaldi.pdf

11:36:02 <dc_swig> O: http://semanticweb.deit.univpm.it/swap2004/cameraready/ruffaldi.pdf from verbosus

11:36:12 <PhUrl> PhUrl is now known as md-afk

11:36:20 <verbosus> O:|(PDF) Populating Virtual Environments using Semantic Web

11:36:20 <dc_swig> Titled item O.

11:37:32 <verbosus> he’s now introducing VTEXGL

11:38:05 <verbosus> where “he” should be Emanuele Ruffaldi

11:40:20 <ldodds>http://www.ldodds.com/blog/archives/000167.html

11:40:20 <dc_swig> P: http://www.ldodds.com/blog/archives/000167.html from ldodds

11:40:31 <ldodds> P|Slug: A Simple Semantic Web Crawler

11:40:41 <ldodds> P:|Slug: A Simple Semantic Web Crawler

11:40:41 <dc_swig> Titled item P.

11:41:00 <iand> ldodds - i get 404 for that uri

11:41:24 <ldodds> hmm, in the middle of a server move, so maybe its DNS

11:41:27 <ldodds> works for me

11:41:28 <danbri> works for me

11:41:36 <iand> :(

11:42:02 <ldodds> P:A simple Java scutter. Does nothing particularly fancy but has a fairly clean framework for extending it

11:42:02 <dc_swig> Added comment P1.

11:42:35 <ldodds> P:Implements the draft ScutterVocab that can be found at http://rdfweb.org/topic/ScutterVocab

11:42:35 <dc_swig> Added comment P2.

11:42:42 <danbri> P:"The reason it doesn't add the triples directly to a triple store is because I wanted to be able to collect a chunk of RDF files locally for processing in different ways, e.g. to test out smushing algorithms, look for common authoring mistakes, etc.". Also potentially to check digital signatures?

11:42:43 <dc_swig> Added comment P3.

11:43:08 <ldodds> P:Source is available under a CC ShareAlike licence

11:43:08 <dc_swig> Added comment P4.

11:43:15 <libby> hi leigh! yay scutter!

11:43:18 <libby> nice name too

11:43:43 <verbosus> cool: the URI works for me too

11:43:51 <ldodds> P:DanbrI: Yes. I was interested in working with the original source RDF/XML, and thats another obvious use

11:43:51 <dc_swig> Added comment P5.

11:44:48 <ldodds> It's a bit hacky in places but its been sitting waiting for release since March, so thought I'd just stick it up for comments

11:44:52 <verbosus> and out goes Ruffaldi

11:45:08 <danbri> P:I had a chat w/ Jose from W3C this week about the XKMS key management work, and esp re generalising from PGP signing of RDF/XML documents to use of W3C's XML Dsig work. (and also re encryption). Some potential there I think.

11:45:08 <dc_swig> Added comment P6.

11:45:13 <verbosus> Tummarello is now going to introduce his Dbin project

11:45:33 <verbosus>http://dbin.org/

11:45:33 <dc_swig> Q: http://dbin.org/ from verbosus

11:46:21 <verbosus> Q:|Dbin, ‘an enthusiasic effort to deliver a Semantic Web “napster like” P2P tool’

11:46:22 <dc_swig> Titled item Q.

11:46:55 <verbosus> danbri, ldodds, sorry for the interruption

11:47:20 <verbosus> I’m currently flooding the channel with notes and general nonsense from the SW workshop in Ancona which I’m currently attending

11:47:41 <danbri> verbosus, no please do go on. It's much appreciated :)

11:47:47 <verbosus> danbri: cool, thanks

11:47:56 <verbosus> (and hi! BTW ;-)

11:48:03 <danbri> hi also :)

11:48:25 <verbosus> the purpose of Dbin: distributed man/machine cooperative annotation

11:49:04 <verbosus> it very much overlaps with Max Jacob’s project, presented earlier this morning

11:49:34 <verbosus> the key component of dbin is MPEG7DB

11:50:54 <verbosus> which is actually called MPEG7 audio db

11:51:00 <verbosus>http://sourceforge.net/projects/mpeg7audiodb

11:51:00 <dc_swig> R: http://sourceforge.net/projects/mpeg7audiodb from verbosus

11:51:11 <verbosus> R:|MPEG7 audio db

11:51:11 <dc_swig> Titled item R.

11:51:23 <verbosus> R: a component of the Dbin project

11:51:23 <dc_swig> Added comment R1.

11:51:47 <verbosus> R: developed by Giovanni Tummarello and friends

11:51:47 <dc_swig> Added comment R2.

11:52:05 <verbosus> R2: developed by Giovanni Tummarello and Christian Morbidoni

11:52:06 <dc_swig> Replaced comment R2.

11:56:04 <verbosus> Giovanni is showing how to create a semantic web enabled audio agent in 10 lines of java

11:56:24 <verbosus> with his own MPEG7DB library and the Dbin

12:00:29 <verbosus> Christian starts talking about the RDFGrowth algorythm

12:00:44 <verbosus> s/algorythm/algorithm/

12:02:00 <verbosus> RDFGrowth is a mechanism to syncronize clients in P2P networks

12:03:44 <verbosus> a very brief overview: http://www.dbin.org/twiki/bin/view/Developement/RdfGrowth

12:17:15 <verbosus> very very cool

12:17:21 <verbosus> they’re showing a demo of Dbin

12:17:38 <verbosus> which you are encouraged to download and check out

12:17:57 <verbosus> a we will now go by car

12:18:26 <verbosus> so cheers, guys, see you later

12:32:41 <tlr_> tlr_ is now known as tlr

12:39:28 <md-afk> md-afk is now known as PhUrl

13:47:47 <PhUrl> PhUrl is now known as md-afk

13:52:14 <md-afk> md-afk is now known as mdupont

13:52:18 <mdupont> mdupont is now known as PhUrl

14:19:23 <verbosus> here we go

14:19:26 <verbosus> long lunch break

14:19:53 <verbosus> I re-announced the IRC channel

14:20:00 <verbosus> Oreste Signore should be joining shortly

14:32:34 <verbosus> here we go

14:32:47 <verbosus> ciao enzo!

14:33:35 <enzo> ciao, chi sei?

14:34:17 <mortenf> dajobe? it seems dc_rdfig^Wdc_swig quit on us just now

14:34:35 <dajobe> that was seconds ago

14:35:06 <mortenf> right

14:36:41 <verbosus>http://semanticweb.deit.univpm.it/swap2004/submissions/franconi.pdf

14:36:42 <dc_swig> S: http://semanticweb.deit.univpm.it/swap2004/submissions/franconi.pdf from verbosus

14:36:54 <verbosus> S:|(PDF) Semantic Web Tool Evaluation

14:36:55 <dc_swig> Titled item S.

14:37:08 <verbosus> S: by Stefano David and Enrico Franconi

14:37:09 <dc_swig> Added comment S1.

14:37:18 <verbosus> Stefano is on stage

14:39:47 <Pietro-ancona> danja waves!

14:39:51 <verbosus> welcome, Pietro-ancona

14:39:56 <verbosus> hey danja: nice t-shirt

14:40:00 <dajobe> gah!

14:40:20 <verbosus> we’re talking about knowledge representation over here

14:40:28 * Pietro-ancona get's back the control

14:41:47 <Pietro-ancona> How many people are actually at the SW2004 conference right now?

14:41:48 <enzo> oh but where can I understand what does it mean Description Logics?

14:42:11 <enzo> sorry for the newbie question ;)

14:42:33 <JimJibber> JimJibber is now known as JibberJim

14:43:34 <enzo> when swap04 slides will be avaiable?

14:43:58 <verbosus> enzo: you’d better ask christian, which is seated next to you

14:44:12 <enzo> k

14:44:13 <verbosus> he organized the whole thing and knows certainly better than us ;-)

14:44:27 <Pietro-ancona> Some are already there. AT least the ones from plytpuswiki

14:44:55 <Pietro-ancona> Is christian the one at my right or at my left?

14:45:05 <Pietro-ancona> sorry, I am not enzo

14:45:23 <Pietro-ancona> I get confused at times

14:45:51 <enzo> I'm enzo, second person on second row on the left

14:46:10 <verbosus>http://www.pytypus.org/

14:46:10 <dc_swig> T: http://www.pytypus.org/ from verbosus

14:46:31 <verbosus> T:|Pytypus a SW-friendly CMS, written in Python

14:46:31 <dc_swig> Titled item T.

14:46:43 <verbosus> sbp, you should check it out, since it uses pyrple

14:47:17 * PhUrl chks it

14:47:39 <Pietro-ancona> We should have a keyword on delicious to link to all the link we are interested in

14:47:59 <verbosus> Pietro, there’s no need

14:48:21 <verbosus> Pietro-ancona: check out http://swig.xmlhack.com/

14:48:23 <enzo> meanwhile give us the delicious url...

14:48:30 <Pietro-ancona> del.icio.us

14:48:32 <verbosus> enzo: http://del.icio.us/

14:48:38 <Pietro-ancona>http://del.icio.us

14:48:39 <dc_swig> U: http://del.icio.us from Pietro-ancona

14:48:48 <enzo> thx

14:49:14 <enzo> it doesn' work :(

14:49:16 <verbosus> U:|del.icio.us is a social bookmark manager

14:49:16 <dc_swig> Titled item U.

14:49:42 <Pietro-ancona>http://del.icio.us/tag/semanticweb

14:49:42 <dc_swig> V: http://del.icio.us/tag/semanticweb from Pietro-ancona

14:50:57 <enzo> great resource!

14:51:24 <Pietro-ancona> Is Andrea a male or female in the example?

14:52:22 <verbosus> it's unclear

14:52:32 <verbosus> Simon loves Andrea who loves Caroline

14:52:53 <libby> ooo-er

14:53:11 <verbosus> libby: we're discussing an example being projected in the current talk

14:53:30 <libby> (I know, sorry, being facetious ;)

14:53:34 <verbosus> hehe

14:53:57 <Pietro-ancona> I wonder if Caroline and Simon knows

14:55:12 <Pietro-ancona>http://del.icio.us/tag/rdf+tutorial

14:55:12 <dc_swig> W: http://del.icio.us/tag/rdf+tutorial from Pietro-ancona

14:56:16 <Pietro-ancona>http://archive.dstc.edu.au/RDU/reports/RDF-Idiot/

14:56:17 <dc_swig> X: http://archive.dstc.edu.au/RDU/reports/RDF-Idiot/ from Pietro-ancona

14:57:35 <libby> bit old that one...

14:58:31 <verbosus> yeah

14:58:54 <verbosus> 1998, appparently

14:59:07 <Pietro-ancona> ok, can you please address me to the new version, For the new idiot, rdf tutorial

15:00:59 <Pietro-ancona> (danja) libby, wish you were here

15:01:08 <Pietro-ancona> (need a scribe!!!)

15:01:16 <crschmidt> heh

15:01:18 <verbosus> Matteo Scoz goes onstage

15:01:20 <libby> heh

15:01:23 <verbosus> danja: yeah

15:01:38 <libby> it sounds great, but mostly in italian I guess...

15:01:56 <verbosus> it's been mostly in english libby

15:02:30 <Pietro-ancona> The english of italians is getting better, nevertheless

15:02:41 <verbosus> we're back to RDF querying nnow

15:02:58 <libby> I wish I was there then!

15:03:11 <JibberJim2> JibberJim2 is now known as JibberJim

15:04:07 <Pietro-ancona> is the guy from the p2p semantic around?

15:04:21 <crschmidt> Doesn't look like he's online

15:04:25 <crschmidt> he goes as GiovonniT

15:04:35 <verbosus> Giovanni Tummariello

15:04:37 <verbosus> Tummarell

15:04:37 <verbosus> o

15:04:54 <Pietro-ancona> thanks

15:05:53 <Pietro-ancona> crschmidt are you here in the room in Ancona?

15:06:04 <crschmidt> Nope

15:06:24 <Pietro-ancona> oh, ok

15:06:53 <enzo> what's the name of python framework alternative to zope?

15:06:58 <enzo> twisted?

15:06:59 <verbosus> enzo: Twisted

15:07:10 <crschmidt> mm, twisted

15:07:16 <enzo> thx

15:18:59 <Pietro-ancona> (danja) please remind me what the SW services channel is called

15:20:02 <jsled> sws-ig ?

15:20:06 <crschmidt> hm, it's sws something, i think

15:20:18 <crschmidt> that's what i was thinking

15:21:19 <Pietro-ancona> thanks crschmidt, thats it

15:22:38 <crschmidt> thank jsled :)

15:26:57 <PhUrl> PhUrl is now known as md-zzz

15:37:51 <verbosus> I have a page full of triples (in N3) from the Pytypus wiki

15:38:13 <verbosus> is there a web service, somewhere, that can generate a graph (in an image)?

15:38:39 <libby> the w3c rdf validator will, but doesn;t work too well for huge graphs

15:38:51 <libby> hm, actually dunno if it does ntriples

15:39:24 <libby> hm, guess not

15:39:28 <libby> sorry

15:39:37 <crschmidt> verbosus: you can run n3 -> cwm to generate rdf/xml

15:40:24 <crschmidt> which you can then take to the validator

15:41:52 * verbosus remembers he’s got RDFlib installed

15:41:59 <verbosus> which should do the trick as well

15:42:32 <crschmidt> hm, does rdflib do n3?

15:43:00 <verbosus> I think so

15:43:13 <crschmidt> "The library contains an RDF/XML parser/serializer, a TripleStore, an InformationStore and various store backends. "

15:45:38 <md-zzz> md-zzz is now known as PhUrl

15:50:28 <verbosus> stefano mazzocchi in videoconference (via iChat)

15:59:49 <dajobe> gah

16:20:50 <crschmidt> heh

16:20:55 <crschmidt> oops, wrong channel

16:42:36 <sbp> <verbosus> sbp, you should check it out, since it uses pyrple

16:42:38 <phenny> sbp: 13:55Z <JosefDC> ask sbp why phenny's .map has stopped working

16:42:42 <sbp> looks like Java/Jena to me

16:42:42 <phenny> sbp: 14:15Z <mortenf> tell sbp it'd be nice if phenny would add a space in front of (".val") responses, to avoid bot-conversations

16:43:44 <sbp> heh, I took .map out because I thought no one was using it

16:43:54 * sbp adds a space

16:44:44 <mortenf> thx

16:45:11 <sbp> done. according to the code, it was already doing so... but only for "#rdfig", so that's a bit useless

16:45:19 <sbp> np (hi morten!)

16:45:21 <mortenf> ah

16:45:25 <mortenf> hey :)

16:48:13 <sbp> ooh, it does: http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/pytypus/server/pyrple/

16:49:19 <sbp> heh: http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/pytypus/server/pyrple/graph.py?r1=text&tr1=1.2&r2=text&tr2=1.1&diff_format=h

16:51:29 <JibberJim> hmm, must be something interesting you can do with http://www.google.com/complete/search?js=true&qu=foaf

16:52:01 <crschmidt> ooh, nifty

16:52:24 <crschmidt> is that public, though? or will things that use it be blocked?

16:52:34 <jsled> unlikely.

16:52:40 <crschmidt> which?

16:52:47 <jsled> Since every web browser that uses the autocomplete will make the same call.

16:52:57 <jsled> I don't see how they could filter.

16:53:00 <crschmidt> Ah.

17:03:44 <sh1mmer> y0

17:03:46 <phenny> sh1mmer: 02:39Z <crschmidt> tell sh1mmer to check out http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/2003/HPL-2003-142.html , which sounds a lot like that stuff he's always talking about, when I say "huh wha?" and doze off

17:07:55 <sh1mmer> phenny, tell crschmidt yes indeedy :) there are a few of other good ones by jeremy as HP tech reports

17:07:57 <phenny> No.

17:15:42 * crschmidt makes http://crschmidt.net/~crschmidt/js.php?term=foaf

17:17:00 <sh1mmer> i get a blank screen

17:17:01 <JibberJim> you should sort it by results

17:17:43 <crschmidt> sh1mmer: check the code? anything funky? It's all pretty trival, really, i'm doing all the work in javascript

17:18:09 <crschmidt> JibberJim: can i reorder an array by its values?

17:18:22 <sh1mmer> that might be an opera ting

17:18:42 <crschmidt> yeah, my javascript is probably broken :)

17:18:50 <sh1mmer> or opera

17:18:51 <sh1mmer> :)

17:18:53 <crschmidt> it's just a series of document.write()s :)

17:19:08 <JibberJim> arr.sort()

17:19:08 <crschmidt> which i don't htink you can do after the doc is loaded

17:30:23 <zeejay__> zeejay__ is now known as verbosus

17:31:13 <crschmidt> hm

17:31:18 <crschmidt> array.sort() doesn't seem to do anything

17:31:43 <crschmidt> see http://crschmidt.net/~crschmidt/js2.php?term=foaf

17:37:37 <JibberJim> yeah crschmidt, 'cos you're not sorting the array on the count, you're sorting an array of arrays

17:38:18 <JibberJim> not sure what the easiest is

17:38:24 <crschmidt> i am? :(

17:38:35 <crschmidt> It's just an associative array, isn't it?

17:38:42 <JibberJim> oh no, you're just sorting a hash, that doesn't work...

17:40:39 <crschmidt> hm

17:40:44 <crschmidt> i just did something

17:41:08 <crschmidt> ah, i sorted them in ascending order by alpha

17:48:59 <verbosus> I will now be off

17:49:11 <verbosus> thanks everyone, cheers!

17:50:16 <PhUrl> PhUrl is now known as md-afk

18:28:43 <md-afk> md-afk is now known as PhUrl

18:39:04 <edsu> edsu is now known as edlunch

18:40:02 <ows> yellow

18:40:23 <jsled> and so you are.

18:41:01 <ows> I am what I am

19:08:54 <sethl> hello... does anyone know why plink.org shutdown?

19:09:15 <DanC> good question.

19:09:21 <dajobe> hi seth. the operator got complaints

19:10:00 <sethl> hi dajobe! hope things are well

19:10:17 <dajobe> see mail:

19:10:19 <dajobe> To: rdfweb-dev@vapours.rdfweb.org

19:10:19 <dajobe> Subject: [rdfweb-dev] Plink

19:10:19 <dajobe> Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 16:50:31 +0100

19:10:29 <dajobe> From: Dom Ramsey

19:10:48 * sethl is checking archive

19:11:39 <crschmidt> Because people are dumb, in general

19:12:00 <sethl>http://rdfweb.org/pipermail/rdfweb-dev/2004-October/013778.html

19:12:22 <dajobe> agh, dc_Swig killed again

19:12:26 <dajobe> it's a python bug

19:12:49 <sethl> this is why flickr is afraid to publish FOAF (which I'll be writing a blog article today about). Got a good email back from Stewart (of flickr)

19:13:12 * crschmidt dealt with the same thing on LJ

19:13:28 <sethl> sounds like people want a way to say "I don't know this person". the opposite of "knows"

19:13:48 <sethl> interesting. Thanks for the link, dajobe

20:40:31 <PhUrl> PhUrl is now known as md-zzz

21:24:43 <crschmidt> lorebot's webpages are undergoing some construction

21:24:46 <crschmidt> pardon my dust

21:32:44 <earle> earle is now known as hex_

21:40:35 <ows> :)

21:49:37 <jsled> <adr> Would a simple index be an acceptable application of RDF?

21:49:40 <jsled> [from #rdfig]

21:49:53 <jsled> <adr> http://dianoia.dnsalias.net/current/writings/poetry/index.rdf is an example of what I'm working on

21:50:05 <jsled> Yeah ... resource-description? RDF's pretty well-suited to that.

21:50:36 <jsled> for instance, here you may want to use some terms from the dc vocab to describe the title/creator-ship/&c. of those entries.

21:50:54 <jsled> And maybe the creative-commons vocab to describe licensing.

21:51:06 <adr> Such as dc:title instead of rdfs:label?

21:51:11 * jsled nods

21:51:28 <adr> Creative-commons I'm not familiar with..uri?

21:51:34 <jsled> creativecommons.org

21:51:38 <adr> thanks

21:58:20 <jsled> Ooh, maybe mix in some FOAF to better-describe the dc:creator?

21:59:38 <adr> Hmm, maybe

21:59:50 <adr> This is a lot to get my head around :s

22:00:13 <jsled> yeah, there are a lot of ways to describe things.

22:00:15 * adr only just got SimpleXML working with namespaces

22:00:28 <jsled> ah. what's your goal?

22:01:13 <adr> To build a site with content in the form of XML, indexed with RDF and parsed into HTML with PHP (:

22:02:01 <adr> I find XML technologies extremely interesting

22:02:30 <jsled> ah. Cool. in that vein, you might want to look at how norm walsh is generating his site.

22:02:43 <crschmidt> ^homepage ndw

22:02:43 <julie> http://nwalsh.com/

22:02:48 <crschmidt> hm, probably not that one

22:02:49 <i10neorg> jsled: Don't let me interrupt, but your comment "yeah, there are a lot of ways to describe things" enticed me to ask about the following...

22:03:04 <jsled> http://norman.walsh.name/2003/05/14/how

22:03:05 <crschmidt> probably http://norman.walsh.name/

22:03:55 <i10neorg> Current reasoning options provide some ways to work with other data (things described differently).

22:04:52 <i10neorg> Maybe I'm not familiar enough with the tools, but it seems the structure of descriptions is often a necessary know to do reasoning.

22:05:00 <i10neorg> Am I making any sense here?

22:05:22 <jsled> adr: also, it's important that you realize that rdf != xml. A lot of people prefer to work in N3 because of it's expressive simplicity [over [RDF/]XML].

22:05:32 <jsled> i10neorg: sure.

22:05:56 <i10neorg> Can OWL let you reason through differences in strucutre?

22:06:01 <eaon> ^weblog ndw

22:06:02 <julie> http://norman.walsh.name/

22:06:12 <i10neorg> (Not just :x same as :y type stuff?)

22:06:54 <jsled> i10neorg: hmm. ... yes and no.

22:06:55 <i10neorg> Like one guy hedgehogs properites and another likes to use n-ary bnodes...

22:07:06 <jsled> "hedgehogs"?

22:07:27 <i10neorg> I picked that up from a DC spec.

22:07:40 <sbp> to hedgehog?

22:08:12 <i10neorg> Like an address's compenents are all connected to a person, and not an "address" node, and then to the person...

22:08:30 <i10neorg> Not that it should be done, but that's another way to do it.

22:08:51 <adr> jsled, N3?

22:09:03 <crschmidt> adr: another serialization of RDF

22:09:11 <sbp> a non-XML serialisation

22:10:15 <adr> Where could I find more information on this>

22:10:26 <crschmidt> [a foaf:Person; foaf:nick "crschmidt"]. instead of <foaf:Person><foaf:nick>crschmidt</foaf:nick></>

22:10:28 <sbp> .g Notation3

22:10:29 <phenny> Notation3: http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Notation3.html

22:10:30 <sbp> .g Notation3 Primer

22:10:32 <phenny> Notation3 Primer: http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/Primer

22:10:35 <sbp> .g Notation3 Rough Guide

22:10:36 <phenny> Notation3 Rough Guide: http://infomesh.net/2002/notation3/

22:10:56 <jsled> i10neorg: yeah ... that's a bitch, ain't it.

22:11:08 <sbp> the Primer's probably the best starting point

22:11:18 <i10neorg> For example, using OWL, can I reason with representaions equally that say (?x :hasWidthInPixels ?width) or (?x :hasWidth ?bnode) (?bnode :unit :pixel) (?bnode rdf:value ?width) ?

22:11:42 <jsled> OWL

22:12:26 <i10neorg> jsled: ?

22:12:30 <jsled> not with OWL, no. you want some sort of rules/transformation stuff, I think, to normalize that.

22:12:47 <sh1m> sbp there was another one around which was good

22:12:47 <i10neorg> I was guessing that.

22:12:54 <jsled> that is ... some of owl's properties make some of those inferences possible.

22:13:16 <jsled> but the "structural" ones you're generally talking about aren't explicitly covered, no.

22:13:30 * sh1m looks

22:14:15 <i10neorg> jsled: This seems like such a common issue. I love that I don't have to worry about terms because I can always impart knowledge (via OWL) about my terms relationship to others. But structure...

22:14:29 <jsled> but you could say something like { ?x :hasWidthInPixels ?width } => { ?x :hasWidth [ :units :pixel; rdf:value ?width ] }.

22:14:55 <i10neorg> Is that a CWM construction?

22:15:05 <jsled> given "=>" is logic:implication. and '{}' has some special meaning.

22:15:25 * jsled handwaves yes.

22:15:39 <i10neorg> Oh, so that's not implementation specific, but a kind of logics notation?

22:16:26 <jsled> a bit of both, from what I tenuously understand.

22:16:54 <i10neorg> Do you know if there's any work to standardize such methods of reasoning?

22:17:11 <jsled> certainly there must be.

22:17:14 <jsled> .g racer

22:17:17 <phenny> racer: http://www.racer.nl/

22:17:32 <jsled> .g racer reasoning

22:17:35 <phenny> racer reasoning: http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/~r.f.moeller/racer/

22:17:51 <adr> jsled, N3 looks neat, but RDF/XML seems, at a glance anyways, much simpler to parse

22:18:09 <jsled> adr: depends on your tools...

22:18:23 <i10neorg> ***i10neorg looking into racer (the reasoner)

22:18:45 <i10neorg> (I obviously don't have this IRC thing down...)

22:18:59 <adr> jsled, well PHP is my tool for this particular project

22:19:50 <jsled> PHP ... you might want to look at ARC, then.

22:20:11 <jsled> .g bizer arc

22:20:14 <phenny> bizer arc: http://www.appmosphere.com/pages/en-arc_rdfxml_parser

22:21:31 <leobard> ^drankbeerwith eaon

22:21:31 <julie> Query returned no results

22:21:43 <leobard> quaffing seems to be new

22:21:48 * adr brain explodes with a million new acronyms

22:21:55 <eaon> leobard: playing on #julie please :)

22:22:13 <leobard> i did already play, and you do not drink enough

22:22:14 <crschmidt> quaffing namespace has been around since i came into the scene

22:23:46 <bengee> feel free to ping me if you are interested in / have questions re the ARC stuff, adr.

22:24:17 <adr> bengee, thanks, I'll keep you in mind

22:38:23 * i10neorg says "wow" to racer...