Semantic Web Interest Group IRC Chat Logs for 2005-03-31

03:12:04 <bear> bear is now known as bear_afk

03:12:44 <bear_afk> bear_afk is now known as bear

03:21:46 <bear> bear is now known as bear_afk

05:11:13 <bblfish__> bblfish__ is now known as bblfish

06:51:15 <darobinary> darobinary is now known as robinb

09:42:57 <kota_> kota_ is now known as kota

10:02:49 <[GNU1> [GNU1 is now known as gnu_jabber

10:57:34 <sandro> #rulec

10:57:45 <sandro> oops

12:02:48 <bblfish__> bblfish__ is now known as bblfish

12:03:38 <bblfish> jeen: how good is owlim?

12:04:41 <bblfish> currently I am using native sail, and was wondering if things would end up being a lot slower if I used owlim. Also is it reliable?

12:32:09 <jeen> sorry, was away

12:32:20 <jeen> to be honest, I haven't tested it myself.

12:32:56 <jeen> but i understood from the ontotext people that it performs pretty well. provided you have enough RAM of course, it's based on the in-memory SAIL

12:54:38 <bblfish> jeen: thanks. I am really looking forward to a memory efficient inferencing sail. (native sail? :-)

12:56:23 <bblfish> (best of all would be something programmable in N3 :)

13:59:04 <CaptSolo> hi all

14:08:32 <oi> hi

14:08:37 <oi> oi is now known as mchncl

14:39:18 <LotR_> LotR_ is now known as LotR

14:46:45 <bblfish> answer to my query to jeen can be found at: http://openrdf.org/forum/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=524&lastpage=yes

15:00:45 <bblfish> phew: trying to convince firefox guys to add a little functionality to allow urn:isbn URIs to be usefully added to anchor tags: http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?p=1353440#1353440

15:16:39 * MarkB respectfully suggests it would be better to get the ISBN guys to support http URIs

15:17:14 <MarkB> don't need to burden Firefox with support book identifiers, car identifiers, dog identifiers, yada yada yada

15:20:40 <jsled> hmm. interesting location vs. naming argument, though.

15:21:28 <jsled> It'd be nice if the ffox feature had strong support for a trivial [urn:<type>:<val> -> http://<something><val>]

15:23:53 <MarkB> don't think so. would be akin to URI space squatting

15:24:33 * tlr would like to see a generic and easy to add URI handlers to Firefox -- without having to resort to JavaScript and XUL.

15:24:33 <jsled> hmm. you like amazon, I like barnesandnoble. let's call the whole thing off.

15:32:36 <timbl> (jsled. http: URIs are names.)

15:33:09 <jsled> and locations.

15:35:47 <MarkB> i moved my Web server a couple of years ago; it has a new IP and a new geographical location. Still has the same http URI though.

15:36:55 <jsled> yup. And the information resources under your authority are fine, &c. But some transcend the authority of a specific host/owner.

15:40:03 <MarkB> some do, sure. data: for example. you don't mean ISBNs though do you?

15:40:09 <jsled> yeah, I do.

15:40:26 <jsled> I tell you the ISBN number because I know that you know how to interpret it.

15:40:37 <MarkB> ISBN owns ISBNs

15:40:41 <MarkB> (AIUI)

15:40:53 <jsled> .acronym aiui

15:41:02 <MarkB> as i understand it

15:41:09 <jsled> [thx]

15:41:18 * erim notes to markb that Bowker owns ISBNs

15:41:44 * erim notes that ISBNs are not unique :(

15:42:00 <MarkB> didn't know about Bowker. Did know about non-uniqueness. thx

15:42:26 * erim also notes that ISBNs are not only assigned to books....

15:42:28 <MarkB> does Bowker farm out minting of ISBNs?

15:42:46 <erim> learned this the hard way when I found out one was assigned to a stuffed animal

15:42:53 <MarkB> lol

15:43:00 <jsled> heh

15:43:04 * erim recalls it was paddington the bear

15:43:36 <erim> -> http://www.bowker.com/

15:43:52 <jsled>http://www.bowker.com/catalog/000108.htm

15:43:52 <dc_swig> A: http://www.bowker.com/catalog/000108.htm from jsled

15:43:57 * MarkB has a 3:30 deadline - canadian federal government end of year. shouldn't really be chatting.

15:44:02 <erim> markb, i don't believe bowker does farm these out... been a few years since i've talked with them however.

15:44:13 <jsled> A:|Ulrich's Resource Linker (tm) -- "Bowker’s brand new remotely-hosted, affordable link resolver [...]"

15:44:13 <dc_swig> Titled item A.

15:44:23 <MarkB> that's my understanding too

15:46:25 * MarkB notes Bowker also does DOIs

16:48:18 <bblfish> oh damn missed the ISBN discussion I started...

16:51:06 * MarkB waves at bblfish, gets back to writing ...

16:51:18 * bblfish hi

16:53:42 <bblfish> jeen: I have found the problem with the memory sail

16:55:39 <bblfish> It may have to do with my code: http://openrdf.org/forum/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=524&lastpage=yes

18:06:56 <DanC> .t JST

18:06:58 <phenny> Fri, 01 Apr 2005 03:06:57 JST

18:30:47 <d2m_> d2m_ is now known as d2m

19:03:56 <lyle> Can anyone explain (or point me to an explanation of) the difference between importing one OWL ontology into another (using owl:imports) and merely referring to another ontology's classes and properties? For example, if I'm defining an owl:Class in my ontology and want to say that it's a subClassOf some other "non-local" class, do I have to import the ontology that defines that other class first?

19:04:47 <crschmidt> I know the answer to the question is "no", but I don't know why

19:05:29 <lyle> ;)

19:05:48 <crschmidt> I think owl:imports is basically the same as pulling all the statements in locally: the equivilant of copying the entire owl schema you're importing and dumping it into your ontology

19:05:52 <libby> I think using import will make some programmes fetch the ontology

19:06:19 <crschmidt> Which is useful if you're, for example, redefining the terms in that ontology, or extending them

19:07:08 <lyle> i think a light bulb (albeit a dim one) just switched on for me

19:07:37 <lyle> maybe it's not so much about setting up references to other ontologies' entities (as I was referring to, e.g. owl:subClassOf)

19:08:10 <lyle> but it's more about the assertions that the imported ontology provides that you may not be aware of (but which a reasoner can take advantage of).

19:08:53 <lyle> if you don't actually import the other ontology, the reasoner definitely isn't going to be able to make those kinds of connections, I guess.

19:09:19 <lyle> I probably ought to write this down while I still think I get it. ;)

19:11:16 <mortenf> lyle, there's a bit on it here: http://rdfweb.org/topic/OwlImportsIssue

19:11:28 <mortenf> if you find out more, please do add a note there

19:12:45 <lyle> mortenf: Thanks very much for the link! Will take a look and see if I have anything useful to add.

19:13:07 <mortenf> thanks

21:59:23 <ndw> Do I recall correctly from a while back that the consensus on depictions was that <foaf:depicts rdf:resource="wordneturi/foo"/> was wrong and

21:59:37 <ndw> <foaf:depicts><wn:foo/></foaf:depicts> was preferred?

22:00:00 <mortenf> yep

22:00:14 * ndw grumbles at himself for having slipped back to doing it wrong.

22:00:20 <mortenf> :)

22:04:44 <ndw> And, uhm, what's wrong with my memory today. <wn:foo/> is shorthand for, this?

22:04:50 <ndw> <rdf:Resource>

22:04:50 <ndw> <rdf:type rdf:resource="wordneturi/foo"/>

22:04:50 <ndw> </rdf:Resource>

22:04:52 <ndw> Is that right?

22:04:59 <mortenf> exactly right

22:05:07 <DanC> umm

22:05:12 <DanC> yeah... kinda redundant, but ok

22:05:20 <ndw> Is there a non-redundant way?

22:05:31 <DanC> <foaf:depicts><wn:foo/></foaf:depicts>

22:05:35 <ndw> heh

22:05:50 <DanC> or rdf:Description

22:05:57 <ndw> I was thinking of the non-wordnet cases where I might not know the qname, but I guess I can always manufacture a qname with the right xmlns decl

22:06:12 <DanC> in fact, it's rdf_s_:Resource, I think

22:06:14 <ndw> If I find any real examples, I'll ask about the concrete instead of the abstract :-)

22:07:10 <DanC> $ echo "_:photo <#depicts> [ a <#wnFoo> ]." | python ~/w3ccvs/WWW/2000/10/swap/cwm.py --n3 --rdf

22:07:11 <mortenf> oh right, i didn't even see that...

22:07:19 <DanC> gives...

22:07:21 <DanC> <rdf:Description>

22:07:21 <DanC> <depicts rdf:parseType="Resource">

22:07:21 <DanC> <rdf:type rdf:resource="#wnFoo"/>

22:07:21 <DanC> </depicts>

22:07:21 <DanC> </rdf:Description>

22:07:39 <ndw> In particular,

22:07:39 <ndw> <foaf:depicts rdf:resource="http://norman.walsh.name/knows/what#thamnophis-sirtalis"/> is

22:07:39 <ndw> <foaf:depicts>

22:07:39 <ndw> <what:thamnophis-sirtalis xmlns:what="http://norman.walsh.name/knows/what#"/>

22:07:39 <ndw> </foaf:depicts>, yeah?

22:08:04 <DanC> yup, that looks right, ndw

22:08:12 <ndw> 'k, I can fake that :-)

22:08:29 * ndw ponders the right emacs regex search and replace :-)

22:08:36 <mortenf> taking depiction to the next level with cyc:visuallyDepicts: http://www.wasab.dk/morten/2004/08/photos/eire/2/image-01.html

22:09:01 <DanC> don't bother search/replace... just use rdf:Description instead of rdf:Resource...

22:09:13 <DanC> ... and stick with your explicit rdf:type element

22:10:40 <DanC> <foaf:depicts>

22:10:41 <DanC> <rdf:Description>

22:10:41 <DanC> <rdf:type rdf:resource="http://norman.walsh.name/knows/what#thamnophis-sirtalis" />

22:10:41 <DanC> </rdf:Description>

22:10:41 <DanC> </foaf:depicts>

22:11:10 <DanC> rdf:Description is a syntactic noop, while rdfs:Resource is a class

22:11:36 * DanC wants some more of whatever we were smoking when we decided on that

22:11:47 <mortenf> heh

22:12:04 <ndw> ah, I need to s/r for <foaf:depicts rdf:resource="..."/> so it's six of one what I replace it with.

22:13:55 * mortenf just learned a new phrase there, thanks: http://www.goenglish.com/SixOfOneAHalfDozenOfTheOther.asp

22:14:00 <ndw> Oh, no, I see. Yours is better.

22:15:27 <ndw> ah, and I didn't even do you the courtesy of providing the whole idiom. good detective work :-)

22:16:20 <JibberJim> especially as google seems to mostly link it to prisoner

22:16:28 <ndw> Of course.

22:16:34 <mortenf> yeah, thanks to free text search

22:17:20 <ndw> I am not a number, I am a free man.

22:17:33 <ndw> We want information.

22:17:35 <ndw> You won't get it!

22:17:40 <ndw> By hook or by crook, we will!

22:17:53 * ndw forces himself to turn down the Prisoner geek fandom

22:17:54 * mortenf goes googlin' again... :)

22:18:10 <DanC> hmm... { Example: "I say she's a stewardess. She says she's a flight attendant. It's six of one, a half-dozen of the other." } the idiom is broader than just synonyms.

22:18:17 <JibberJim> watch out mortenf, the big rubber balls will get you...

22:18:24 <ndw> That's Rover, JibberJim

22:18:26 <mortenf> ouch

22:18:51 <DanC> I more often use the "six of one..." expression regarding quantities of work, like ndw did

22:19:07 * JibberJim wonders if ndw has visited portmeiron in his fandom...

22:19:19 <ndw> No, but you can be damn sure if I get a few days in Wales...

22:19:46 * ndw runs jpegrdf to update 242 images. No more bad depictions!

22:20:02 * DanC missed a beat somewhere... how did "prisoner" get into the discussion?

22:20:14 <ndw> mortenf googled for "six"

22:20:17 <JibberJim> "six of one" is a fan club of prisoner

22:20:32 <ndw> oh, right, it's even worse, the whole *phrase* is a match.

22:20:48 * ndw gives mortenf an extra bonus point for succeeding

22:20:54 <mortenf> yep, but i had to go to imdb to figure out what prisoner was

22:21:00 <crschmidt> ndw: jpegrdf?

22:21:14 <crschmidt> nevermind.

22:21:17 <ndw> heh

22:21:21 <crschmidt> google is much more helpful than with "six of one" :)

22:21:26 <DanC> ok, well, now I need a clue about what "the prisoner" is...

22:21:35 <ear1grey_> ear1grey_ is now known as NumberTwo

22:21:41 <ndw> Now I run 'make' and wait for 10 minutes to see what I've borked.

22:21:51 <JibberJim> prisoner is a rather odd tv show from the 70's, maybe the 60's

22:21:52 <DanC> hmm... "Patrick McGoohan's enigmatic TV series"?

22:21:56 <ndw> That's the one

22:22:26 <ndw> Patrick McGoohan as an ex-agent of some sort spirited away to an island community and given a number. He gets to leave when he gives them "information"

22:22:38 <ndw> Patrick McGoohan is "Number 6"

22:22:44 <DanC> this is clearly definitive proof that forall X, there exists Y such that Y is a web page of a fanatic or fanatics about X.

22:22:53 <ndw> uh huh

22:23:26 <crschmidt> "There is nothing in this world so ridiculous that someone has not only thought of it, but also has a webpage devoted to it."

22:23:35 <ndw> "Who are you? Number two. Who is number one? You are number six."

22:23:52 * ndw slaps hand. Stop it!

22:23:53 <deltab> I think there's a new partwork magazine this yeah about it

22:23:53 <deltab> this year

22:24:06 * NumberTwo doesn't remember saying that.

22:24:15 * mortenf thinks of a way to get abbott and costello in there, fails

22:24:45 * ndw chuckles.

22:24:57 <ndw> In almost every episode, NumberTwo :-)

22:25:16 <ndw> In fact, I think it's in the title sequence.

22:25:42 <NumberTwo> yep. with the Lotus 7.

22:25:50 <ndw> From IMDB, DanC, http://imdb.com/title/tt0061287/

22:26:34 <ndw> Uh uh, cwm blew up.

22:26:50 <DanC> oh now come on... not only is there (a) a wierd TV show, and (b) a fan-club about it, and (c) a web page about the fan club, but there's ALSO (d) a web page about a controversy/conspiracy about the fan club about the tv show. http://www.sixofone-info.co.uk/

22:26:53 <NumberTwo> NumberTwo is now known as ear1grey

22:27:05 * DanC ducks the cwm shrapnel

22:27:26 <libby> port merion is pretty cool though

22:27:51 <JibberJim> It's one word isn't it?

22:28:48 <libby> http://www.sixofone-info.co.uk/about.htm is bizzare

22:28:59 <libby> what can they possibly mean?

22:29:05 * ear1grey ponders a FOAF example using Prisoner characters

22:29:18 * ndw grumbles. Jena dumped WARN [main] (BaseXMLWriter.java:62) - Namespace prefix 'j.1' is reserved by Jena. into my RDF/XML. Before the root element. Grumble grumble grumble

22:30:40 <ndw> So I didn't try to make all those URIs into qnames but Jena did, and then yelled at me for serializing it's made up prefix.

22:30:48 <ndw> Grrrr.....

22:31:02 * crschmidt whispers "redland"...

22:31:59 <ndw> Redland has a Java API?

22:32:33 <crschmidt> Yeah, it does, although I think that dajobe doesn't recommend it

22:32:52 <crschmidt> it was mostly a joke anyway ;)

22:33:15 <ndw> Mmm.

22:33:38 <ndw> Jeremy offered to help debug the j.1 prefix message once, but I could never construct a simple test case for it.

22:37:28 * ndw tears down VPN

22:38:37 <JibberJim> I don't think norm is wellformed there, seems to be some a text node after the last element...

22:46:11 * ndw wonders if DanC ever looked into uploading Contacts to his hiptop

22:46:35 <DanC> yeah, and it worked, too, until they changed the policy on the XMLRPC interface

22:46:53 <ndw> Mmm. So it's driving the form now or nothing, I guess.

22:47:13 <DanC> I restored my upload-calendar-thru-the-web-form code to working order; it should work for contacts too

22:47:27 <ndw> The Palm to Sidekick conversion botched several hundred contacts

22:47:47 <ndw> Yeah, I meant to go look at that and see if it could be adapted, but I haven't yet

22:51:53 * DanC resumes that special kind of fun that only expense reporting can give

22:52:14 <ndw> lol

22:52:31 * ndw mutters something about pins in my eyes

22:56:15 * mortenf points JibberJim at http://www.dpreview.com/news/0503/05033106istdsreview.asp

23:03:06 * ndw pads off for dinner

23:07:30 <bengtf> bengtf is now known as bengtf_away

23:14:16 <bblfish__> bblfish__ is now known as bblfish

23:17:18 <JibberJim> phenny, tell mortenf thanks!

23:17:20 <phenny> JibberJim: I'll pass that on for you when mortenf is around.