Semantic Web Interest Group IRC Chat Logs for 2005-04-15

07:28:19 <libby> morning jeen

07:29:54 <jeen> hi libby

07:29:58 * jeen slurps coffee

07:30:39 * libby wrestles applescript

07:31:01 <jeen> applescript? sounds yummy.

07:44:09 <kasei> heya libby

07:53:21 <libby> heya kasei

08:58:15 <kasei> is there a way to link skos concepts to a wordnet definition?

13:13:48 <crschmidt> Is the correct way of identifying a bnode in turtle the _:bnodeid syntax?

13:17:15 <dajobe> crschmidt: yes

13:20:04 <crschmidt> hm. when using Redland's TurtleParser, does it rename those turtle triples internally?

13:21:06 * crschmidt was trying to do ^addturtle _:r12345r1 foaf:name "Christopher Schmidt", but it changed the bnodeid

13:21:21 <crschmidt> Which I kind of guessed it would, but wanted to try anyway

13:22:13 <dajobe> it would

13:22:21 * crschmidt nods

13:22:24 <dajobe> or could, I forget

13:22:28 <crschmidt> heh

13:22:39 <dajobe> probably you can add a set of turtle triples with bnodes consistently; that's all that would work

13:26:35 <crschmidt> i don't really understand what that meant, I don't think

13:28:14 <crschmidt> oh, you mean within the triples, you can reference the same bnode

13:29:03 <crschmidt> yep, that works fine

13:31:40 <crschmidt> By the way, I set up trac for julie last night, so people can file bug reports via http://trac.crschmidt.net/julie/newticket for things they'd like to see

13:32:24 <dajobe> I think I looked at trac and ran away when I saw it was wiki style

13:33:08 <dajobe> just wanted something that did 1 thing, and ended up with mantis

13:33:50 * crschmidt nods

13:33:57 <crschmidt> I wanted the wiki and source browser

13:34:02 <crschmidt> the bug tracker is a side benefit

13:34:18 <crschmidt> i've never liked mantis, although I can't explain why, and trac is no better as far as bug tracking goes

13:34:24 <student> student is now known as moldova

13:46:11 * crschmidt adds 990 mbox_sha1sums to julie's model

13:48:25 * crschmidt is interested in seeing how many rewrite's he's just allowed that wouldn't have ever happened before

13:51:45 <crschmidt> 87 rewrites that i've never been able to do before

13:51:47 <crschmidt> not so bad

13:52:41 <crschmidt> bleh, lots of icky rewrites

13:53:02 * crschmidt should see if he can fix the smusher to always migrate a longer URI to a shorter URI, and add the owl:sameAs triples

13:59:00 * crschmidt writes out a list of ever seeAlso URI in julie's model

15:08:10 <balbinus6> balbinus6 is now known as balbinus8

15:19:20 <crschmidt> phenny: tell DanC that I sent his data sources lists to www-archive, archived at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2005Apr/0003.html, 4913 URLs (all LiveJournal URLs excluded)

15:19:22 <phenny> crschmidt: I'll pass that on for you when danc is around.

15:20:05 <DanC> tx

15:20:07 <phenny> DanC: 15:19Z <crschmidt> tell DanC that I sent his data sources lists to www-archive, archived at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2005Apr/0003.html, 4913 URLs (all LiveJournal URLs excluded)

15:23:27 <crschmidt> np

16:58:09 <dajobe> crschmidt: all the redland packages have doap files on the web, the one in the doap svn was an example

16:58:22 <dajobe> maybe there's a doap <link rel> somewhere?

16:58:39 <crschmidt> dajobe: well, it didn't light up my doap extension on librdf.org

16:58:42 <crschmidt> i didn't go digging though

16:59:14 <dajobe> yeah, as I said, I've not linked it in the html, didn't know how

16:59:24 <crschmidt> ah

16:59:25 <dajobe> or didn't look

16:59:27 <crschmidt> sorry, misunderstood

16:59:40 * dajobe goes for food

16:59:46 <crschmidt> yeah,it's same as FOAF: <link rel="DOAP" type="application/rdf+xml" href="foo" />

17:00:45 <dajobe> ok... the doap files are in the tarballs too, for all the packages

17:01:18 <crschmidt> nifty

17:01:33 * crschmidt remembers that he doesn't have the tarballs anymore, silly debian

17:39:03 <[GNU]> hello all

17:39:27 <[GNU]> crschmidt: you have any pattern for the best way to keep julie up to date with my most current menow data?

17:40:40 <[GNU]> i would like to update julie with the current position i am at, just like witw service

17:47:18 <crschmidt> [GNU]: there's always ^addturtle, but you'll have to create the turtle yourself

17:47:41 <[GNU]> ah, ok, saw that in the logs

17:47:55 <[GNU]> will addturtle replace old ones?

17:47:59 <LotR> hey [GNU]

17:48:06 <[GNU]> lotr!

17:48:19 <[GNU]> LotR: youre quite often away on jabber :)

17:49:03 <LotR> I get 404: Remote server not found for all my jabber contacts

17:49:22 <[GNU]> LotR: wah, thats no good

17:49:26 <crschmidt> no, it won't

17:49:43 <crschmidt> and there's no ordering on return queries

17:49:54 <crschmidt> you should always have a time attached to your menow:Status though

17:50:02 <crschmidt> because one of these days, I will sort based on those datetimes

17:50:08 <crschmidt> and you can just get the latest ones

17:50:18 <crschmidt> but yeah, julie isn't the ideal stuff for menow yet

17:50:24 <[GNU]> crschmidt: ja, ok, and how to prune old data?

17:50:28 <crschmidt> You can't :)

17:50:31 <crschmidt> data never goes away!

17:50:47 <[GNU]> ok :) up to you to buy new storage

17:50:58 <LotR> haha

17:51:54 <[GNU]> crschmidt: I guess http://crschmidt.net/blog/archives/47/menow-and-musicbrainz/ describes what i need, aint it?

17:52:49 <crschmidt> [GNU]: yeah, but that's specific to musicbrainz

17:52:53 <crschmidt> but yeah, that's the general idea

17:53:20 <[GNU]> ja, i think i transfer that to menow:located

17:54:50 <crschmidt> right

17:54:55 <LotR> hmm. wasn't one of the audioscrobbler people on here?

17:55:40 <crschmidt> ^addturtle [a foaf:Person; foaf:nick "[GNU]"; menow:hasStatus [a menow:Status; menow:located [a geo:Point; geo:lat "%s"; geo:long "%s"]]].

17:56:31 <[GNU]> :)

17:56:44 <[GNU]> cyc:Spatial-something is missing

17:58:31 <crschmidt> a geo:SpatialThing then

17:58:36 <crschmidt> ^ns geo

17:58:36 <julie> The URL for the geo namespace is http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#

17:58:50 <crschmidt> ^allRelated http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#spatialThing

17:58:50 <julie> Query returned no results

17:58:53 <crschmidt> ^allRelated http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#SpatialThing

17:58:54 <julie> rdf:type rdfs:Class, rdfs:comment Anything with spatial extent, i.e. size, shape, or position. e.g. people, places, bowling balls, as well as abstract areas like cubes., rdfs:label SpatialThing

17:59:41 <[GNU]> cyc:SpatialThing-Localized

17:59:53 <[GNU]> http://esw.w3.org/topic/SimplePhotoAnnotation uses it

18:00:04 <[GNU]> so i thought it might be a good idea to use it too

18:00:19 * crschmidt shrugs. Feel free :)

18:00:43 <DanC> hmm... how do I preview a post in wordpress?

18:01:02 <[GNU]> save and continue editing

18:01:03 <crschmidt> DanC: a post? if you "save as draft", when you open the draft, it's previewed down at the bottom of the page

18:01:06 <[GNU]> and look down below

18:01:18 <LotR> [GNU]: so do you have code that updates your menow status from your IM client too?

18:01:22 <DanC> ah.

18:01:47 <[GNU]> LotR: no, it is a standalone xmpp client, i just think about a macosx/wxPython client

18:01:57 <[GNU]> lotr: i am not able to write gaim oder adium plugins

18:02:26 * DanC starts a post on XTech plans... http://www.webtechs.com/wordpress/index.php?p=5

18:02:42 <DanC> the "5 minute install" of wordpress is a myth, as far as I know.

18:02:52 <crschmidt> always been that easy for me...

18:03:09 <[GNU]> not if you start fiddeling arround with the design :/

18:03:29 <DanC> I spent an hour or so and gave up got Dom to install it for me, but it still has a bunch of broken links... I have to manually add index.php to the addresses to get them to work

18:03:46 <crschmidt> my process has always been:

18:03:56 <crschmidt> CVS checkout of wordpress to web accessible wordpress directory

18:03:57 <DanC> ^weblog crschmidt

18:04:00 <julie> http://crschmidt.net/blog/archives/author/crschmidt/ (x2), http://www.livejournal.com/users/crschmidt/ (x2), http://crschmidt.net/blog/ (x2)

18:04:10 <crschmidt> go to http://crschmidt.net/wordpress/ (or wherever)

18:04:15 <crschmidt> click "Install it now!"

18:04:20 <crschmidt> follow prompts

18:04:42 <crschmidt> (they don't recommend CVS anymore, for the record)

18:04:44 <LotR> not cvs export?

18:05:49 <DanC> that's it? no apache mod-rewrite stuff to get / (without /index.php) to work?

18:06:17 <[GNU]> wp1.5 does all that for you

18:06:23 <[GNU]> just enable mod_rewrite

18:06:39 <DanC> wp1.5 doesn't do all that stuff for me

18:07:02 <DanC> how can I check whether mod_rewrite is enabled?

18:07:51 <LotR> on debian, ls /etc/apache2/mods-enabled

18:07:58 <[GNU]> use wp admin menu to set the permalink structure

18:08:05 <[GNU]> and try if the url are accessable

18:08:16 <DanC> crschmidt, did you "use wp admin menu to set the permalink structure"?

18:08:58 <DanC> I see /etc/apache2/mods-enabled/rewrite.load

18:09:05 <crschmidt> DanC: http://crschmidt.net/tmp/blog/wordpress/

18:09:11 <crschmidt> just installed that, starting at 14:06

18:09:30 <sbp> so it is a myth

18:09:34 <sbp> it should be three minutes

18:09:41 <crschmidt> woulda taken shorter

18:09:43 <[GNU]> :)

18:09:59 <crschmidt> but my wordpress mysql directory was owned by root instead of by mysql from my gentoo->ubuntu move

18:10:17 <crschmidt> also, 14:10:31 < crschmidt> just installed that, starting at 14:06

18:10:26 <crschmidt> so, it was 4.5

18:10:27 <sbp> your clock is wrong

18:10:29 <crschmidt> yep

18:10:45 <DanC> you did the mysql stuff since 14:06, crschmidt ?

18:10:45 <sbp> this concerns me

18:10:50 <crschmidt> DanC: yep

18:11:04 <sbp> no ntpd?

18:11:10 <DanC> from zero, or from an existing mysql setup?

18:11:26 <crschmidt> DanC: had an existing mysql setup, knew my database name, user, password

18:11:42 <crschmidt> sorry, "the mysql stuff" to me meant "fixing my broken mysql install"

18:11:45 <bandri> "If you open libby, then danbri, when you drag danbri, libby's+dan's shared foaf:knows won't move."

18:12:00 * bandri reads that a couple times :)

18:12:05 <DanC> well, I dunno why my wp install is hosed, but it is. there's a link from http://www.webtechs.com/wordpress/index.php?p=5 to the previous post, but if you follow it, you get "forbidden"

18:12:05 <bandri> (via http://trac.crschmidt.net/foafnaut/wiki/FoafnautInternals)

18:12:06 <crschmidt> rather than "installing and setting up and configuring mysql"

18:12:10 <bandri> hi folks

18:12:13 <sbp> hey danbri

18:12:17 <crschmidt> bandri: heh, heh

18:12:26 <crschmidt> bandri: it's hard to describe, nad confusing the first time you see it

18:12:50 <crschmidt> DanC: hm, goofy

18:13:02 <bandri> btw re foafnaut, chris there's already an (admittedly undermaintained) wiki page for it, http://rdfweb.org/topic/FoafNaut

18:13:17 <bandri> if trac does extra thingies like issue tracking, worth investigating tho

18:13:18 <crschmidt> DanC: permalink structure, yes, I just had wordpress set it up: note that for best performance, the wordpress directory should be writable by the webserver

18:13:32 <crschmidt> bandri: since I'm keeping it in svn locally, i mostly installed trac for the source browser

18:13:48 <bandri> (linked from http://www.foafnaut.org/)

18:13:52 <crschmidt> bandri: I can migrate stuff if it seems prudent later,e right now just using trac for personal tracking

18:13:53 * bandri nods

18:13:55 <DanC> bandri, have you registered for XTech?

18:14:04 <bandri> DanC, no... not registered yet.

18:14:15 <libby> earlybird finishes today

18:14:34 <crschmidt> DanC: without the web directory being web server writable, the whole thing becomes much more difficult: can't write your wp-config, can't write your .htaccess

18:15:39 <bandri> (a) I'm unemployedish then, and haven't negotiated travel funding etc w/ danield; (b) I'm on the Planning Committee, which I think gets me in free if I decide to go...

18:15:48 <bandri> I think I'll be there

18:16:42 * DanC re-reads "famous 5 minute install" http://codex.wordpress.org/Installing_WordPress ... finds nothing about permissions

18:17:22 <crschmidt> DanC: I think it's assumed, since wordpress is designed for the $5 web hosting crowd, where the web server can typically write to config and so on: plus it tells you throughout the dialogs how to get around it

18:17:30 <crschmidt> even without it, you could probably still get a five minute install in

18:17:56 <DanC> I haven't run my XTech plans all the way up thru channels either... I thought I'd just kinda wing it and assume it would work out, but registration seems to be over $1000, and I'm not going to put that much on my card without being sure I'm gonna get it back.

18:18:18 <crschmidt> Example text:

18:18:21 <crschmidt> If for any reason this automatic file creation doesn't work, don't worry. All this does is fill in the database information to a configuration file. You may also simply open wp-config-sample.php in a text editor, fill in your information, and save it as wp-config.php.

18:19:49 <crschmidt> re permalinks, message is: "If your .htaccess was writable we could do this automatically, but it isn’t so these are the mod_rewrite rules you should have in your .htaccess file. Click in the field and press CTRL + a to select all."

18:19:54 <DanC> I'm having a hard time trusting wordpress. I haven't read the code. I wonder if there are any apps that I trust that I haven't read the code.

18:20:14 <crschmidt> regarding your 403, it looks like your rewriterules are funky: can you check what file the actual 403 is happening on?

18:20:52 <DanC> er... "file" in what sense? the 403 is at http://www.webtechs.com/wordpress/?p=4 . you can see it, no?

18:20:55 <crschmidt> (viewing error log)

18:21:07 <DanC> the apache error log?

18:21:10 <crschmidt> Right, and I expect that it's not actually hitting index.php

18:21:11 <crschmidt> yeah

18:21:24 <crschmidt> It sounds kind of like what happens when /wordpress/ is readable, but not executable

18:21:38 <crschmidt> or index.php isn't in your list of suitable index pages

18:22:18 <DanC> hmm..

18:22:19 <DanC> [Fri Apr 15 18:16:15 2005] [error] [client 216.177.24.154] Directory index forbidden by rule: /u/connolly/webtechs/htdocs/wordpress/

18:22:28 <crschmidt> check your DirectoryIndex line

18:22:38 <crschmidt> DirectoryIndex index.html index.cgi index.pl index.php index.xhtml <- without an index.php it won't realize that it's a valid index file

18:22:56 <crschmidt> (mine is in /etc/apache2/apache2.conf )

18:23:18 <DanC> # grep -i DirectoryIndex /etc/apache2/apache2.conf

18:23:18 <DanC> DirectoryIndex index.html index.cgi index.pl index.php index.xhtml index.php Overview.html

18:23:31 <crschmidt> hm

18:24:03 * crschmidt wonders if that could be overridden somewhere else, but doesn't know enough about apache to check

18:24:47 * DanC thinks $5 for hosting is money well spent ;)

18:25:00 <DanC> running a web server is complicated.

18:25:04 <crschmidt> very much so

18:25:07 <DanC> I can't seem to keep thttpd running on my desktop

18:25:30 <DanC> I keep having to sudo rm /var/run/thttp.pid && /etc/init.d/thttpd start

18:25:57 <DanC> I use zope for dm93.org , but I have any number of issues and problems

18:25:58 <crschmidt> can you copy the ls -l line for the wordpress directory? or is it sensitive?

18:26:25 * DanC tries to find the wordpress directory that Dom set up

18:26:35 <crschmidt> probably at /u/connolly/webtechs/htdocs/wordpress/ :)

18:27:00 <DanC> is there one of those pasteboard thingies nearby?

18:27:07 <crschmidt> drwxrwxr-x 6 crschmidt www-data 4096 2005-04-15 14:27 wordpress <- that's mine, which allows me and the web server to touch it

18:27:15 <crschmidt> well, i just was wondering about the one line

18:27:26 <DanC> u/connolly/webtechs/htdocs/wordpress# ls -ldg .

18:27:26 <DanC> drwxr-xr-x 6 root 4096 Mar 9 09:04 .

18:27:56 <crschmidt> hm

18:28:55 <crschmidt> that's missing a field that i would expect: I don't know if root is user or group...

18:29:19 <crschmidt> not that it matters, really

18:29:39 <crschmidt> either way, the directory is executable, so even if wordpress can't save the files it needs to, it should still see the index.php

18:29:55 <DanC> # ls -ldg ~dom/public_html/

18:29:55 <DanC> drwxr-xr-x 8 www 4096 Mar 22 12:52 /u/dom/public_html/

18:32:10 <crschmidt> i'd look around for the webtechs.com config, and see if there's some redefining of DirectoryIndex for some reason

18:32:20 <crschmidt> it doesn't seem to make any sense, but that's the best thing I can come up with

18:33:53 <DanC> I think I'll wait until Dom is available. This setup is evidently different from the out-of-the-box debian/wp config that you demonstrated, in some way that I'm not aware of, but I think Dom is.

18:33:58 * crschmidt can't test it, since he has Options Indexes on sitewide

18:34:02 * crschmidt nods

18:36:40 <DanC> hmm... I don't suppose I have read the code to xchat. But I don't trust it all that much either... there are lots of redundant copies of most stuff I write in IRC

18:37:48 <DanC> but I have read at least parts of * the linux kernel * the X window system (though that was only the Xt libraries, which are only barely relevant these days. And motif. ew.) * emacs * mozilla (only small parts)

18:37:54 <crschmidt> what aspect of wordpress aren't you sure you trust? safety of data?

18:38:17 <DanC> yes, mainly safety of data and persistence of URIs

18:39:08 <DanC> I don't really trust mysql all that much. I only begrudgingly accept that SQL databases are a reasonable way to manage data.

18:39:35 <crschmidt> persistance of URIs I can guarantee so long as you maintain your .htaccess file and ensure that you can rewrite things (if using permalinks), and so long as you don't have to redo your mysql database (and even that should be fine so long as you keep decent backups)

18:39:45 <DanC> for example.. if I edita post, is the old version still around somewhere?

18:39:52 <crschmidt> no

18:40:15 <DanC> ok, well, that pretty much means WP is no good for me, right there.

18:40:27 <crschmidt> but i think you'd be hardpressed to find blog software which does offer that

18:40:34 <DanC> CVS :)

18:40:46 <crschmidt> CVS is not blog software! :p

18:41:15 <DanC> ok, well, I'm not sure I *need* blog software. I'm pretty sure I *need* elephant-never-forgets content management.

18:41:26 * crschmidt nods

18:43:45 <crschmidt> If you want elephantneverforgets, you could do regular mysqldumps to a file, then store that file in CVS...

18:43:50 <crschmidt> but that seems really silly to me

18:44:27 <DanC> well, there seem to be lots of file-based blog thingies. pybloxom or whatever and such. I can mix CVS into those, I expect

18:44:37 <crschmidt> yep

18:44:54 <crschmidt> pyllbox does file based stuff too, I think. that's the sbp route to it

18:44:59 <crschmidt> I prefer my nice mysql database :)

18:45:58 * crschmidt removes wordpress install, having proved his 5 minute install point :)

18:49:56 <deltab> <crschmidt> CVS is not blog software! :p

18:50:01 <deltab> not even with viewcvs?

18:50:28 * crschmidt does not think so, no.

18:51:00 <deltab> entries in reverse chronological order with author's name, on a particular subject

18:51:09 <deltab> it fits the usual definitions :-)

18:53:02 <crschmidt> I don't think that would work with the typical CVS or blogging conventions

18:53:14 <crschmidt> I'm assuming you'd see each revision of a file as a new entry, right?

18:53:59 <crschmidt> But what happens if you edit an older "entry": you 1. have to revert to an older version of the file, then edit that, which seems backwards from CVS convention, which is typically forward moving

18:54:17 <crschmidt> 2. it pops up to the top, which is not the typically blogging convention

18:54:37 * crschmidt shrugs. I suppose if you wanted to, you could use CVS as storage for a blog-type thingy

18:58:43 * DanC finishes XTech registration

20:42:24 <stillLotR> stillLotR is now known as LotR

22:18:18 <chaals> BLURB: Semweb meetup, madrid

22:18:19 <dc_swig> A: Semweb meetup, madrid from chaals

22:19:36 <chaals> A: Inkel, MetaEva, Tom Baker, José Ramon, Chaals...

22:19:36 <dc_swig> Added comment A1.

22:20:17 <chaals> A:Sidras asturianos, ...

22:20:18 <dc_swig> Added comment A2.

22:20:19 * libby waves at chaals

22:20:50 * chaals waves from phone

22:21:01 <libby> :)

22:23:12 <chaals> Ok, we have table for dinner now. A++ amigos