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15:26:05 <niven.openprojects.net> topic is: W3C WebOnt WG (http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/)
15:26:05 <niven.openprojects.net> Users on #webont: logger_1 @dajobe @DanC 
15:26:31 <dajobe> web area appearing soon
15:27:51 <dajobe> http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/webont/
15:29:15 <DanC> whee! thanks.
15:29:18 <dajobe> np
15:29:35 <DanC> how often does it update?
15:29:37 <dajobe> on permanently until you say otherwise
15:29:48 <dajobe> the dated-HTML files are written each minute
15:30:04 <dajobe> the txt, rdf are live
15:30:17 <DanC> ok, thanks.
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15:51:23 <dajobe> since logger_1 is here permanently; this channel will remain 'open' and the topic will live on
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16:11:34 <DanC> hi libby
16:11:43 <libby> hia
16:11:59 <libby> just thought i'd have a look...
16:12:40 <libby> are yoou plannign on putting any data in a calendar type rdf format at all?
16:13:06 <libby> I really think the LEAD stuff is cool so far
16:13:13 <DanC> er... "planning" is a strong word, but yes, I'm hoping.
16:13:49 <DanC> e.g. if you wanted to suppliment the meeting agenda with a transcription into calendar-rdf, that would be cool ;-)
16:13:56 <libby> neat
16:14:06 <libby> I was just going to say that I would help...
16:14:20 <libby> today's meeting agenda?
16:14:27 <DanC> yes, today's
16:14:38 <libby> i'll have a look
16:28:13 <dajobe> hi libby; DanC, I just released again I got times wrong; 15:00 EST = 20:00 UTC - doh!
16:28:40 <dajobe> I checked with http://www.timezoneconverter.com/cgi-bin/tzc.tzc
16:29:12 <libby> yeah. www.dateandtime.com is quite good too
16:38:51 <dajobe> that site seems like a very general directory
16:45:26 <DanC> hmm... no webont intro from Jeremy Carroll
16:46:02 <dajobe> he's not been well recently, and on holiday before that
16:48:43 <DanC> ok... I'll take that as regrets for today's telcon.
17:32:37 <DanC> hmm... there are a few typos in the WebOnt WG nominations....
17:32:46 <DanC> one got familyName/givenName mixed up...
17:32:52 <DanC> one got Orbst confused with Obrst
17:34:52 <DanC> kerpow! amaya crashed...
17:35:22 <dajobe> film at 11 :)
17:46:36 <DanC> yikes... 40 WebOnt WG members.
17:47:02 <DanC> maybe 41 or 42
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17:58:53 <JHendler> * JHendler waves to Dan
17:59:00 <DanC> hi.
17:59:08 <JHendler> any reason for choice of openprojects instead of w3c for irc?
17:59:09 <dajobe> DanC: you can automate that; see /msg chanserv help
17:59:12 <DanC> I'm reconciling all the various bits of data about WebOnt WG membership.
17:59:40 <DanC> er... I thought about that, jim...
17:59:58 <DanC> I dunno if dajobe's offer to log extends ot irc.w3.org
18:00:03 <DanC> and #rdfig is nearby
18:00:06 <JHendler> DC: I've now heard from all but three people Breen, Kravtsova, Venigalla
18:00:11 <dajobe> DanC: makes no difference to me
18:00:35 <DanC> In the end, I sorta flipped a coin.
18:00:48 <JHendler> It's okay with me, was just curious
18:01:09 <DanC> I'm not sure mike dean is subscribed to the mailing list.
18:01:51 <DanC> his web site access account isn't associated with any groups, so the SQL select that builds the mailing list doesn't catch him. or something.
18:02:49 <JHendler> there's mail from him on webont, so something must be working
18:03:08 <DanC> have you seen the wg-members-on-the-planet, JimH? it's coming slowly.
18:04:19 <DanC> I've got 3 independent source of "who's in the WG?": the /2001/sw/WebOnt/ web page, the w3t-semweb-review archive, and the mailing list database.
18:04:26 <DanC> not to mention random email.
18:04:34 <JHendler> haven't seen it - did you send a pointer (I haven't got to today's email yet)
18:04:54 <DanC> I sent a pointer, but it was fairly buried.
18:04:57 <JHendler> I've been assuming w3t was definitive and sending things there.  
18:05:17 <DanC> map: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/webont-world.png
18:05:31 <JHendler> I still can't get access to the mailing list DB (even though chairs are supposed to - no answer from sysreq on it yet)
18:05:54 <DanC> I sent you an update on that. news is not good.
18:06:48 <DanC> xplanet seems buggy; it sorta drops labels or something.
18:07:12 <JHendler> ahh, I see it - okay, let's you do all the work :->  Meanwhile, none of my browsers have a png plugin - you know what is standard way to look at them?
18:08:09 <DanC> ugh... your desktop isn't PNG-happy?
18:08:09 <JHendler> never mind, it is only IE that was braindead - found a netscape plugin
18:08:32 <DanC> I thought I was the last person on the planet to upgrade to PNG-happy stuff.
18:10:13 <JHendler> the world looks good - need a zoom feature :->  (also, we have a Japanese member - shimizu, he'll be hard to see)
18:11:11 <DanC> yes, rotate/zoom is needed. RDF->VRML, anyone?
18:12:14 <DanC> Peter PS reports trouble connecting...
18:12:58 <JHendler> I had problems with openprojedcts when I was behind DARPA firewall - some sort of address forwarding issue
18:13:49 <JHendler> got them to fix it by giving the sysadmins the actual IP address.  Not sure if that is Peter's prob.  
18:14:55 <JHendler> been working on a small ontology for webont members, was trying to decide whether to link it to your swap/pim/contact stuff
18:15:39 <DanC> I suggest you make it clear to the telcon participants that the IRC channel is an optional suppliment; mostly for use by the chair/scribe.
18:16:48 <DanC> by the way, JimH, your use of N3 was sorta goofy... the bit you gave didn't have prefix info etc. it's not machine-convertable to RDF/xml
18:16:50 <JHendler> OK, can explain this as one of my administrivia announcements.  
18:17:44 <JHendler> yes, I know - said so in the message - I was just trying to give folks a pointer to N3, and didn't want to wait until I could find all the appropriate namespace tags
18:18:41 <DanC> you said so in your message?
18:18:43 <DanC> * DanC re-reads
18:18:46 <DanC> I don't see it.
18:18:50 <JHendler> I'm fully convinced that many ontologies are going to want to refer to thing in other ontologies (permitted by the D+O language, but not in the Peter/Ian thinking) and want my
18:18:54 <JHendler> new ontology to reflect that 
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18:20:15 <DanC> Hi Peter. Any idea what the problem was or how you fixed it?
18:21:06 <JHendler> you're right Dan  - apologies - it is in the file I cut/pasted from, I just missed a line 
18:21:19 <pfps> No idea.  I did change from 60s to 120s timeout.  You might want to send email concerning the long answer times for openprojects.
18:21:35 <JHendler> Missing line is "@@ add prefix info - no time now"
18:21:44 <JHendler> howdy peter.
18:22:26 <pfps> *@*@* semi-broken software!!  This took too long to set up.
18:23:07 <dajobe> you might want to try irc.us.openprojects.net to ensure a US server rather than a possible one outside USA
18:23:16 <DanC> yes, software is broken all over the place. But on the other hand, you're chatting real-time around the planet.
18:30:25 <DanC> * DanC goes back to slogging thru airport data...
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18:43:47 <libby> http://ilrt.org/discovery/2001/10/cal-drafts/webont/telecon2001-11-12.rdf
18:44:01 <libby> ... is an agenda in rdf
18:44:13 <libby> but I had to make rather a lot of arbirary decisions
18:44:46 <libby> and I've used yet another schema
18:49:42 <libby> i'm not sure how to represent one event being part of another, nor whether/how to say one event follws another (maybe container...)
18:55:18 <DanC> the cyc time ontology has all that stuff, libby
18:55:48 <DanC> hmm... that telcon agenda is much more fine-grain than I was thinking; I was just thinking of one 1-hour event.
18:56:10 <libby> ah...can do that...
18:56:27 <libby> cyc - i'll have a look
18:56:57 <DanC> by the way... <!-- main event - date/time/summary of telecon -->
18:56:57 <DanC> <ical:item>
18:56:57 <DanC> <ical:Vevent>
18:56:57 <DanC> <ical:summary>
18:56:57 <DanC> The agenda for the first WebOnt
18:56:58 <DanC> Telecon 2001-11-12 
18:57:00 <DanC> </ical:summary>
18:57:12 <DanC> that summary should just be "first WebOnt Telcon", right?
18:57:21 <DanC> i.e. the event is the telcon, not the ageinda.
18:57:24 <DanC> agenda.
18:59:39 <libby> yep
18:59:51 <JHendler> hmm, here's a D+O question - if we want to use some of CYC (including the whole ontology is a major commitment) is that okay??  
19:00:29 <DanC> okay in what sense? using their terms doesn't commit us to anything.
19:00:33 <JHendler> I just use pointers to particular classes/etc., but the documentation is mum on whether that is correct or not...
19:00:40 <libby> changed it to a simpler version,kept full one as ls
19:00:42 <las> las has quit
19:00:51 <JHendler> Ahh, if you copy it to your page, that's fine - I want to say
19:00:54 <libby> telecon-full2001-11-12.rdf
19:00:58 <DanC> if you want to commit to some cyc axioms, you can use daml:imports
19:01:06 <JHendler> hendler:foo a cyc:person;
19:01:24 <JHendler> what would I daml:imports..
19:02:06 <JHendler> and does it mean I must "agree" with everything cyc says about people...
19:02:09 <DanC> you'd daml:imports whatever files cyc provides that you agree with....
19:02:41 <DanC> ... I was thinking they exported their stuff in little RDF chunks, but I was confused... they provide HTML chunks, but just one big RDF dump.
19:02:58 <JHendler> but right now CYC only provides a 40k file of everything it believes in, and I don't want to have to check through everything in it to make sure I agree before inserting it into my ontology....
19:03:28 <DanC> no, just writing "hendler:foo a cyc:person" doesn't mean you agree with cyc about anything.
19:03:35 <JHendler> exactly, if we want to deal with the WEB in Semantic WEB we need to think about some of these things.
19:03:59 <JHendler> I agree with you Dan, but again, documentation to date is mum on this - yet ALL my students did this without being told to.
19:04:26 <JHendler> i.e. they all referred to and/or extended existing ontologies without using includes.
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19:43:01 <DanC> * DanC is getting hungry
19:44:45 <DanC> nmg, have we met?
19:44:58 <nmg> I don't think so, no.
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19:45:18 <nmg> \me has met some of the other rdf people (dan brickley, etc)
19:47:36 <DanC> hmm... one n in Mcguiness-pbdsl2. Your name has 2, right?
19:47:56 <DanC> * DanC wanders off for a bite to eat...
19:47:59 <dlm> yes - ijust tried to fix that with going to file/local identifier and updating it
19:48:03 <dlm> it did not seem to take.
19:48:22 <JHendler> * JHendler Dan - bring the milk and cookies for the group meeting!
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20:00:59 <JHendler> =========== telecon starts ===========
20:01:07 <Frankh> Frankh has joined #webont
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20:02:31 <DanC> wow... 17 on the phone, per http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/Zakim.html
20:02:33 <jdale> jdale has joined #webont
20:02:41 <jdale> hello
20:02:49 <DanC> * DanC joins
20:03:12 <nmg> hi jon - how's SF today?
20:03:23 <DanC> 12 Nov agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2001Nov/0043.html
20:04:05 <jdale> pretty wet - very bad rain this morning
20:04:25 <dlm> and actually a little lightening and thunder - odd for sf
20:04:28 <jdale> not a good day to be driving - i saw at least 8 accidents on the 280
20:04:45 <jdale> seems to have calmed down a bit now
20:05:14 <las> las has joined #webont
20:05:39 <DanC> JimH: pls use the IRC channel for meeting business (including getting the chair's attention, clarifying).
20:05:43 <dlm> dlm is now known as DeborahMcGuinness
20:05:54 <jdale> are we supposed to be phoning in, too?
20:06:01 <DeborahMcGuinness> yes
20:06:04 <jdale> ah
20:06:10 <jdale> so what's the IRC session for?
20:06:26 <DeborahMcGuinness> just for scribing and for clarification
20:06:36 <jdale> * jdale dials in
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20:08:26 <jdale> hi tim
20:09:31 <DanC> $ grep ^Y nov12telcon|wc
20:09:31 <DanC>      24     162    1186
20:09:48 <DanC> ===== Roll Call
20:09:59 <DanC> 24 present. (details to be provided @@)
20:10:28 <DanC> ===== Agenda review
20:11:40 <DanC> JimH: administrative: during discussion items, please request the floor; the chair or discussion leader will give you the floor
20:13:03 <DanC> +Ned Smith, Intel Corporation
20:14:39 <DanC> == Teleconference times.
20:14:52 <las> * las wonders what telecon frequency is expected to be
20:15:12 <DanC> JimH: we span something like 14 time zones; it's unlikely we'll find something convenient to everyone.
20:15:31 <ora> * ora thinks once a week is typical
20:15:32 <DanC> DebM: we could perhaps alternate times
20:15:53 <stefanjdecker> stefanjdecker has quit
20:16:08 <DanC> ACTION JimH: request telcon schedule input. NOTE WELL: everyone respond soon.
20:16:18 <DanC> == Face to face schedule
20:16:27 <DanC> JimH: PeterPS has offered to host 1st ftf
20:16:53 <DanC> PeterPS: murray hill near [??] airport. [... scribe missed lots...]. trying to get a wireless net....
20:22:39 <irc.openprojects.net> Disconnected from irc.openprojects.net (ERROR :Closing Link: logger_1[tatooine.ilrt.bris.ac.uk] by niven.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for logger_1[tatooine.ilrt.bris.ac.uk]))
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20:23:02 <asimov.openprojects.net> topic is: W3C WebOnt WG (http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/)
20:23:02 <asimov.openprojects.net> Users on #webont: logger las jdale JosD kohlhase Ian DeborahMcGuinness nmg pfps @JHendler @dajobe @DanC 
20:23:06 <las> current events DanC will try to keep w/in a week or two of up to date
20:23:14 <las> telecon:  we're in, you're all here...
20:23:22 <stefanjdecker> stefanjdecker has joined #webont
20:23:33 <las> membership in the group never closes, anyone who joins late has to get self up to speed, but you can always in principle join.
20:23:42 <las> JimH:  we are not actively seeking new members.
20:23:43 <ora> ora has joined #webont
20:23:51 <las> * las apologizes, her phone connection is going in and out.
20:24:18 <las> schedule/milestones dates got out of synch between when they were written and  now.
20:24:27 <las> jimh will update 
20:25:06 <las> recommendation is highest formal goal
20:25:18 <las> something i missed precedes recommendation
20:25:37 <las> candidate recommendation precedes that, has several implementations.
20:25:56 <las> proposed rec is what i missed, and some wgs skip cand rec and go straight to prop rec if they're really in order
20:26:07 <las> publish working drafts at least every 3 months
20:26:34 <las> when a significant body of work is done, danc will push us to publish as a working draft
20:26:48 <las> we can  change working drafts, but as we go further along we should try to change less.
20:27:02 <las> ian horrocks:  what constitutes an implementation wrt the kind of thing we're looking at?
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20:27:32 <las> danC:  I hope we'll build test suites and tools, but we'll have to talk about that as we go along
20:28:21 <las> note sched/milestones must be agreed upon with semantic web coordination group; others are waiting for our resources (including danc only committed for one year)
20:28:32 <las> membership:  pretty much everyone here has jumped through the hoops.
20:28:53 <las> jimH:  if you  haven't send intro yet, please do so ASAP.
20:29:35 <las> danC:  intellectual property:  goal is to make sure that anything we come up with is usable by entire web community.  there are many ways to get there.
20:30:01 <las> could be that we need to get some more formal papers signed for working draft/face to face.
20:30:17 <las> we're a large group, 40+, will need to figure out how to be effective
20:30:45 <las> everything is published, we'll keep developer groups active, anyone who doesn't need to be a member is welcome not to.
20:30:59 <las> JimH:  Please say more on what's expected in terms of participation.
20:31:06 <las> DanC:  Charter says 1 day/week.
20:31:20 <las> We expect folks in wg to be developing test cases, writing parts of document, ...
20:31:53 <las> If your roll is mostly to keep track of what's going on and report to someone else, you probably don't need to be a member.  Members are expected to do substantial technical development.
20:32:15 <las> History section including technical history....
20:32:42 <las> First item is process history, not technical background (http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Process-20010719/)
20:33:05 <las> DanC's job is to keep us all aware of what parts we need to know, but we're welcome to read whole thing.
20:33:51 <dajobe> dajobe has quit
20:33:54 <las> Quick runthrough of obligations that make us mutually effective.
20:34:02 <las> (from process document)
20:34:46 <las> Art of consensus is supplemental, mostly aimed at chairs, less "rules" and more guidelines (member confidential) http://www.w3.org/Guide/
20:35:12 <las> editors will also need art of consensus, also f2f hosts.
20:35:30 <las> technical background docs
20:35:39 <las> crash course was airport exercise
20:35:46 <las> danc is compiling lessons learned
20:36:40 <las> uris are important technologies....all should read referenced documents 
20:37:01 <las> xml is important and the soohoo document is highly recommended
20:37:15 <las> xml namespaces; rdf; rdf schema.
20:37:25 <las> (all of the urls are on the webont home page)
20:37:35 <las> Missing from homepage:  Link to rdf validator.
20:38:01 <las> daml/daml+oil not a lot of pointers on the page....there are other things that could be there:  daml ontology library, ....
20:38:41 <las> jimH:  I don't yet have write permission for the home page.  i will try to prioritize.  You need some familiarity with all, but may wind up with expertise in some.
20:38:45 <DanC> thanks for scribe-help, Lynn
20:38:56 <las> jimH:  everyone will need to know daml/daml+oil
20:39:07 <las> * las is wondering whether danc has stepped down, so she can.
20:40:11 <DanC> JimH: if we recon Nov 2001 as our start date, ...
20:40:17 <las> Apologies to all, but I have a conflict and need to duck out now....
20:40:35 <DanC> ... three months later is Jan 2002, just after our ftf.
20:40:56 <las> las has quit
20:40:59 <DanC> ... so we'll need to be ready to publish something soon after our ftf; so we'll need to do significant preparation beforehand.
20:41:44 <DanC> ====
20:41:46 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/charter
20:42:06 <DanC> === 4) Ontology - vision/goals; charter review - Jim Hendler (~20 min)
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20:43:16 <DanC> JimH: technical scope in the charter is up to date; schedule stuff needs revision, but the technical scope is set.
20:44:28 <DanC> JimH: there was a lot of discussion of what the scope should be; there's a spectrum that goes out to hard research problems; if you've seen TimBL's layer cake, we fit in at the ontology layer.
20:44:34 <DanC> ... note we're not doing rules.
20:44:48 <DanC> [... more summary of the charter ...]
20:45:15 <libby> libby has joined #webont
20:46:58 <DanC> ... we expect that a formal semantics for this language is necessary; we'll either maintiain the DAML+OIL model-theoretic/axiomatic semantics or draft some other formal semantics.
20:47:18 <JosD> TimBL's layer cake http://www.w3.org/2000/Talks/1206-xml2k-tbl/slide10-0.html
20:47:32 <DanC> JimH: some background on DAML+OIL ...
20:48:55 <DanC> ... SHOE had a frames/rules flavor; OIL was based on description-logic stuff...
20:49:37 <DanC> ... mixing in web technologies introduced a few interesting issues...
20:50:25 <DanC> ... "The products of the WebONT group should not presuppose any particular approach to
20:50:26 <DanC>      either ontology design or ontology use. In addition, the language must support the
20:50:26 <DanC>      development and linking of ontologies together, in a web-like manner. "
20:51:46 <DeborahMcGuinness> axiomatic semantics - http://www.ksl.stanford.edu/people/dlm/daml-semantics/abstract-axiomatic-semantics.html
20:52:13 <DeborahMcGuinness> model theoretic semantics - http://www.daml.org/2001/03/model-theoretic-semantics.html
20:53:32 <DanC> JimH: ... "maximum compatibility with XML and RDF language conventions. " so we'll be working with RDF Core on things like model theory, datatypes, etc.
20:54:30 <DanC> JimH: unlike groups like the "standard upper ontology" group, we don't intend to standardize any particular base of knowledge, but rather a language for expressing ontologies.
20:55:06 <DanC> ... e.g. if someone proposed "this is how time should be represented..." that would be out of scope.
20:56:25 <DanC> ... out of scope: query rules, query language, Universal Web Logics
20:56:49 <DanC> * DanC wonders who's asking
20:56:59 <DanC> NedS: how do you see DAML-S fitting in?
20:57:25 <DanC> JimH: I think we want to support that sort of work, but DAML-S itself is out of scope.
20:57:53 <DanC> NedS: how about as an environment for testing etc?
20:58:36 <DanC> JimH: not sure about "environment"... but yes, we'll be interested in their requirements w.r.t. expressing ontology.
20:59:00 <DanC> OraL: I participate in the DAML-S work, in case we need a connection.
21:00:52 <DanC> JimH: we'll also be keeping track of other W3C working groups as well as other groups like FIPA...
21:01:05 <DanC> JonD: I've been appointed representative from FIPA to here.
21:01:20 <ora> ora has left #webont
21:01:56 <DanC> JimH: note also the European Union has issued a [... scribe missed it.]
21:02:31 <DanC> ... semantic web initiative.
21:02:59 <DanC> [... more charter review...]
21:03:03 <DanC> "To be successful, we expect the Working Group to have approximately 10 to 20 active principal
21:03:03 <DanC> members for its 12-month duration. "
21:03:08 <DanC> JimH: clearly we're past that.
21:03:23 <DanC> JimH: note well: "Any intellectual property essential to implement specifications produced
21:03:23 <DanC> by this Activity must be available on a royalty-free basis."
21:04:05 <DanC> ==== end of item 4
21:04:58 <DanC> FrankvH: it's been suggested to me that we collect idiomatic expressions using an ontology language...
21:05:16 <DeborahMcGuinness> http://www.ksl.stanford.edu/people/dlm/daml/modelingIssues.html
21:05:26 <DeborahMcGuinness> is what i put up to hold daml+oil modeling issues
21:05:28 <DanC> ... use cases, as it were.
21:05:37 <DanC> DanC: yes, let's
21:07:05 <DanC> FrankvH: our charter says start at/near DAML+OIL... (a) how about a crash-course? (b) let's pore over DAML+OIL in detail and see what issues are there.
21:07:37 <DanC> JimH: ideally, we'd have a ftf presentation; unfortunately, we can't wait 'till then...
21:07:48 <DanC> Ian: how about the walkthru?
21:08:22 <DanC> FrankvH: we could present the walkthru by phone... [thinking out loud]
21:08:59 <DanC> IanH: I'm still not clear how we'd define an implementation
21:09:32 <DanC> JeremyC: implementation is my main focus in participation here... at HP, we have an RDF implementation, and we're interesting in moving "up the stack"...
21:10:09 <DanC> ... for example, it would have Java classes that make it straightforward to work with this language... perhaps including a DL [ description-logic ] reasoner.
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21:10:21 <DanC> JonD: if we're [@@]
21:13:12 <DanC> DanC: [use cases->testing; RDF Core WG experience: parser testing, entailment tests]
21:13:38 <DanC> DebM: I'm maintaining a "modelling issues" page... http://www.ksl.stanford.edu/people/dlm/daml/modelingIssues.html
21:13:40 <pfps> if there is a question on the call, can we please get an answer before going on to something else?
21:13:59 <DanC> * DanC didn't realize there was a question outstanding
21:14:23 <pfps> what counts as an implementation.
21:14:51 <DanC> did you get cut off?
21:16:05 <JosD> what counts as an implementation? supporting those test cases... 
21:16:43 <DanC> PeterPS: I'm still interested to know what counts as an implementation...
21:16:54 <DanC> DanC: note that this group will largely decide that (with some review)
21:17:08 <DanC> PeterPS: so this group will do the "this implementaiton is good enough" work?
21:17:17 <DanC> DanC: yes, mostly. (see also: new QA WG)
21:18:02 <DanC> JimH: it's not necessarily an integrated product... could be a mix of tools and toolkits that counts as an implementation
21:18:44 <DanC> DanC: if we decide that's OK, that'll probably work. But other groups (e.g. CSS) have decided that they want one piece (or 2 pieces) of widely-deployed software that passes all their tests.
21:19:12 <DanC> JeremyC: an important motivation for the implementation requirement is to test that the spec is clear.
21:19:17 <DanC> [... missed other stuff...]
21:21:36 <DanC> DanC/JimH: let's do start collecting use cases: real-world scenarios where "if it doesn't do this, I'm not happy"
21:22:17 <DanC> ====== next meeting
21:22:24 <DanC> week of 22 Nov is not likely.
21:22:45 <DanC> stay tuned for news of next telcon sometime in the week of 26 Nov
21:23:00 <DanC> ====== ADJOURN.
21:23:22 <JosD> * JosD bye
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21:24:15 <libby> danc, should we get a chump for here?
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21:25:16 <DanC> a chump: that might be nice...
21:25:19 <nmg> I'd be in favour of a chump - the one on #rdfig is pretty useful.
21:25:20 <DanC> ... or mabye I'd rather have just one.
21:25:52 <Frankh> Frankh has quit
21:25:56 <DanC> i.e. maybe I don't want to check two different chumps to see "what's up"
21:26:26 <dajobe> +1 (if I get a vote)
21:26:27 <DeborahMcGuinness> I am also interested in use-cases  - it would be optimal for those to be connected to the modeling issues i mentioned
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21:27:20 <jdale> bye all
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21:30:55 <nmg> bye
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21:33:23 <JHendler> I like the chump idea as well - Libby, can we make it your action item to bug dajobe and DanC until they do it.
21:33:34 <libby> heh
21:33:37 <libby> ok
21:33:41 <dajobe> hmm
21:33:56 <libby> or I could do it probably
21:34:00 <dajobe> maybe bijan's semantichump?
21:34:12 <libby> maybe - is it out yet?
21:34:14 <dajobe> or stick with one we know works?
21:34:33 <libby> yeah
21:34:41 <libby> might make the logger rather messy
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21:35:03 <dajobe> I've been thinking about logger and chump relationship
21:35:08 <dajobe> but maybe take this to #rdfig
21:35:17 <dajobe> see, why you don't want two channel? :)
21:37:59 <JHendler> moving over to #rdfig - g'night all (afternoon to the Californians)
21:38:51 <libby> see ya
21:38:52 <dajobe> DanC: so did you decide on a meeting time, so I can turn on/off logger; or at least know when to check it is working?
21:39:13 <dajobe> (or JHendler)
21:39:54 <JHendler> dajobe: not yet, we need to query the WG - DanC will know...
21:40:00 <dajobe> np
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21:44:17 <libby> bye
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23:19:03 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Hi all.  I'm not sure how well-announced the backslide to the old server code was, but we'll be restarting the new code within the next few minutes.  We had a rather nasty server rehash corruption problem.  We'll keep you posted.