W3C Web Ontology Working Group IRC Chat Logs for 2002-02-21

16:01:05 Users on #webont: @logger_3

16:23:38 <lilo> [Global Notice] Hi all. Reminder to Linux hackers: the Ottawa Linux Symposium CFP deadline is March 1st. Heavy hackers are encouraged to submit proposals, details at http://www.linuxsymposium.org/. Thanks.

16:56:30 <jhendler> jhendler has changed the topic to: Web Ontology Working Group - +1.617.761.6200 #9694

16:59:11 <jhendler> jhendler has changed the topic to: Web Ontology Working Group - +1.617.761.6200 #9326

16:59:48 <DanCon> scribe volunteers?

16:59:59 * DanCon might volunteer today... hmm....

17:00:55 <DanCon> logger_3, pointer?

17:00:55 <DanCon> See http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/webont/2002-02-21#T17-00-55

17:01:03 <mdean_>http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/Zakim.html

17:01:48 <mdean_> also check out http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/Zakim.rdf compliments of Ralph Swick

17:02:18 <DanCon> [[

17:02:18 <DanCon> SW_WebOnt()12:00PM

17:02:20 <DanCon> Started at 16:55Z and now has 13 participants:

17:02:20 <DanCon> +1.617.636.aaaa, ??P0, +1.703.681.aabb, JHendler, ??P20, MDean, +44.196.266.aacc, ??P33, DanC, +1.540.364.aadd, ??P35, Lassila, ??P37

17:02:24 <DanCon> ]]

17:02:43 <fra> regrets i cannot join the telecon, i'll attend only the chat (it's francesco iannuzzelli, from ivisgroup, london)

17:03:12 <DanCon> got it, fra.

17:04:01 * lasDesk wonders how to tell zakim who i am

17:04:37 * lasDesk will have to leave early....

17:08:39 <jhendler> regrets from McGuinness, Volz

17:09:08 <mdean_> to add a name to Zakim use http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/info/name.php3

17:09:23 <DanCon> ======== ftf

17:09:44 <DanCon> Frank: all set. there will be wireless. Folks are expected to fund their own hotel [as usual]

17:10:02 <DanCon> JimH: what airport? pls send details.

17:10:40 <DanCon> Frank: two full days. early start Monday evening. there will be a social event Sunday evening.

17:11:19 <DanCon> ACTION DanC: discussion registration with Frank [right after the meeting]

17:11:45 <DanCon> Frank: there's been a request for dial-in facilities; we looked into that; it looks expensive

17:11:54 <DanCon> ... maybe DanC could help?

17:12:04 <DanCon> +Hayes

17:12:30 <DanCon> this ftf is 8-9 Apr. in Amsterdam

17:12:44 <DanCon> ======= 3rd ftf SFO 1-2 Jul 2002.

17:13:11 <jon-b> jon-b is now known as ohcg

17:13:29 <DanCon> JonD: we're looking at facilities: hotel or something... palo alto or whatever

17:13:48 <DanCon> ===== 4th ftf

17:14:12 <DanCon> JimH: Guus has the ball on some details on this, so stay tuned for more when he joins

17:14:40 <DanCon> JimH: 7-8 Oct in Bristol, hosted by HP is the current proposal.

17:14:47 <DanCon> ... we assume that if we don't hear from you, that's OK with you.

17:15:04 <DanCon> we heard from several about a constraint the previous week.

17:15:27 <DanCon> logger_3, pointer?

17:15:27 <DanCon> See http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/webont/2002-02-21#T17-15-27

17:15:39 <DanCon> JimH: so our ftf schedule looks completel

17:16:26 <DanCon> [ IRC difficulties...]

17:16:31 * lasDesk wonders whether the person with the dog in the background can mute.

17:16:54 * DanCon thinks phone noise went a way...

17:17:21 <DanCon> ACTION JimH: update ftf schedule on group home page.

17:17:32 <DanCon> ===== 2) Action item review (10 min; Hendler)

17:17:40 <DanCon> DONE: Finin to complete use case on ubiq. comp (Due ASAP)

17:17:52 <DanCon> DONE: Buswell to complete design Use case (Due ASAP)

17:18:09 <DanCon> DONE: Obrst to help find ontology partitioning - review and refine

17:18:21 <DanCon> DONE: Pat Hayes to send Jeff a couple of sentences on referring to

17:18:30 <DanCon> DONE: Tim Finin to send Jeff a paointer to the FIPA langauge req.

17:18:46 <DanCon> WITHDRAWN: Use Case group will have one more week to get a draft to group...

17:19:20 <DanCon> on have unwritten parts in the D+O vs OWL document done as soon ...

17:19:24 <phayes> hello world

17:19:57 <DanCon> WITHDRAWN.

17:20:56 <DanCon> re... Mike D. to document what OWL reqs not covered by D+O

17:21:46 * DanCon suggests we continue the DAML+OIL evaluation under item 4)

17:22:29 <DanCon> DONE.

17:23:01 <DanCon> re Jim/Guus will send to mailing list a proposed list of

17:23:01 <DanCon> documents/outputs expected of the working group

17:23:05 <DanCon> ACTION CONTINUES.

17:23:07 <DanCon> +Guus

17:23:37 <DanCon> ==== 4th ftf

17:23:48 <DanCon> PROPOSED: 7-8 Oct in Bristol, hosted by HP

17:24:10 <DanCon> 8-9 Oct has been suggested...

17:24:22 <DanCon> and 9-10 Oct...

17:24:46 <DanCon> some preference for travelling over the weekend [i.e. 7-8Oct]

17:24:57 <DanCon> ... due to price

17:25:20 <DanCon> Mon/Tue 7/8 Oct 2nded.

17:25:41 <DanCon> RESOLVED: 7-8 Oct in Bristol, hosted by HP

17:26:02 <DanCon> ======= 3) Requirements Document (30 min. Heflin, Dale, Volz)

17:26:17 <DanCon> cf * REQDOC: New Draft Jeff Heflin (Wed, Feb 20 2002)

17:26:27 <DanCon>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Feb/0193.html

17:26:36 * DanCon suggest let's please do resolve them here and now

17:26:54 <DanCon> 1) "Referencing with URIs" as raised by Peter Patel-Schneider.

17:28:37 <DanCon> JimH: one point you raised was with the term "URI" in particular [as opposed to "URI reference"]

17:28:55 <DanCon> JimH: another was the general architectual principle of using URIs for terms

17:29:37 <DanCon> Pfps: due to "brokenness", URIs aren't sufficient to reference everything I'm interested in [ e.g. schema components]

17:30:50 <DanCon> (move on while we hunt the archive...)

17:31:01 <DanCon> -- 3) "Ability to state closed worlds.

17:31:29 <DanCon> Jeff: it was suggested to demote this to an objective, but PatH argued for it as a requirement.

17:31:59 <DanCon> IanH: seems to vague in the requirements document.

17:32:48 <DanCon> JeffH: demoting it to an objective doesn't mean "we won't touch it"

17:33:02 <DanCon> PatH: OK.

17:33:32 <DanCon> IanH: "certain topics" in particular isn't sufficiently precise

17:34:14 <DanCon> PROPOSED: to make it an objective, incorprating editorial suggestions [e.g. from Frank]

17:34:55 <DanCon> ?: complete elements of a class seems easier.

17:35:12 <DanCon> RESOLVED: to make it an objective, incorprating editorial suggestions [e.g. from Frank]

17:35:30 <DanCon> -- 4) "Properties for statements / Reification / Tagging"

17:35:47 <DanCon> Jeff: Peter objected to this as a requirement, but other folks disagreed.

17:36:46 <lasDesk> agenda sub-item request. I have to leave early today, but would like to make sure that the schedule for release of this document (or the process-that-defines-the-schedule) gets discussed prior to my departure.

17:36:47 <DanCon> JimH: at the ftf, this got an A, no? e.g. where a statement came from ...

17:37:08 * DanCon isn't sure the chair is watching irc, lynn

17:37:43 * jhendler watching irc except when I am talking

17:37:57 <DanCon> in the draft, "Associating properties with statements", section 4. http://km.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/owl/

17:38:05 * jhendler cannot read my notes from the f2f and the irc at the same time...

17:38:40 <DanCon> connolly agrees with demoting this to an objective.

17:39:19 <DanCon> Frankv: this is about the "lightweight version"; ala rdfs:label...

17:39:19 <jon-b> borden thinks this should go for further discussion, agrees with as objective

17:39:45 <DanCon> PatH: [... think I missed it...]

17:40:12 <DanCon> MikeDean: "statements about statments"? hmm... maybe not...

17:40:30 <DanCon> PROPOSED: make it an objective.

17:40:32 <DanCon> some objection.

17:41:58 <DanCon> DanCon: I don't intend to argue for something as a requirement until I've seen a design for it. Have folks in favor of this seen designs?

17:42:02 <DanCon> [several] yes.

17:42:26 <DanCon> ====== REQDOC schedule

17:42:32 <DanCon> JimH: I'd like to get finished soon

17:42:38 <DanCon> ... I think we're already late

17:43:09 <DanCon> Ian: several of these seem too vague...

17:43:21 <DanCon> JimH: it would be better if you had sent suggested replacement

17:44:14 <DanCon> .. replacement text

17:44:34 <DanCon> DanCon: we can refine the wording in a subsequent draft; we can also demote requirements in the light of design experience.

17:45:02 <DanCon> [detailed schedule...]

17:46:26 <DanCon> Lynn: the document changed substantively yesterday

17:48:35 <timfinin> btw, in case anyone should have a simiar problem -- I was banned from this server because openprojects discovered that our campus webproxy was configured in a way that left it open to ppl using it in bad ways to launch DOS attacks. I was able to get a password from openprojects.net to allow me to come in from the cold and to connect to the server.

17:48:43 * DanCon requests help scribing at this point

17:49:09 <DanCon> JimH: it seems very useful to get our use cases out to the community

17:49:50 <DanCon> JimH: I don't see issues with the use cases... are we OK with that?

17:50:13 <DanCon> LynnS: much of my comments are about the use cases

17:51:25 <DanCon> JimH: how about this as a schedule... a new draft monday, with diff marks... [...]

17:51:47 <DanCon> Lynn: what about publishing it as is?

17:53:15 <DanCon> I wouldn't having the editor sprinkle "no consensus here" notes and publish.

17:54:44 <jon-b> JimH: propose publish next week

17:55:07 <DanC> am I back?

17:55:11 <jon-b> yesx

17:55:12 <jhendler> yes

17:55:15 <DanC> thx.

17:55:45 <DanC> LynnT: [...]

17:57:16 <jon-b> DanC: who has issues with draft but is willing to publish?

17:57:36 <jon-b> PPS: unpublishable

17:58:58 <jon-b> PatH: what are requirements to publish?

18:00:45 <jon-b> DanC: label document: issue here - approx 7 - 8 places

18:01:06 <jhendler> JimH is totally confused -- I think I'm proposing same thing, but with some editing to clean up and a vote next week

18:02:43 <DanC> well, if PFPS is the only one in a "no go" position, I suggest calling the question, recording the dissent, and moving on.

18:02:55 <jon-b> JonB agrees on publication next week

18:03:50 <DanC> JimH: I think there are editorial issues where we're happy for the editor to make those changes...

18:04:26 <DanC> JimH: I'd like to release a document [a week?] [oops.. I'm lost now]

18:07:02 <jon-b> LynnS: Dissents, wishes to release WD now, extra week won't be enough to substantially improve

18:07:05 <DanC> Lynn: I would have preferred to publish in its present state; I think the extra week is going to set illusory expectations [?]

18:08:54 <DanC> ---- agenda check

18:09:00 <DanC> postpone implementation discussion? OK.

18:10:16 <DanC> JimH: we'll take a shot at resolving the issues identified by the editor during this telcon, then we'll go.

18:12:39 <DanC> JimH: at this point, folks who want changes, include replacement text.

18:15:02 <DanC> RESOLVED: new draft monday (incorpriating editorial comments at editor's discretion). WG folks are to read the document; we'll decide next thu whether to publish.

18:15:09 <DanC> ACTION Jeff.

18:15:36 <DanC> ---- back to 4) "Properties for statements / Reification / Tagging"

18:16:53 <DanC> PatH volunteers to propose wording for this item

18:17:13 <DanC> PFPS: where did this come from?

18:17:42 <DanC> Jeff: from mail from Mike Dean, and from editorial cogitation

18:18:43 <jhendler> From reqs vote record: A Annotation/tagging of ontologies (some particular properties)

18:19:02 <DanC> ACTION PatH: propose wording for this item

18:19:41 <DanC> ------- 5) "Lexical representations"

18:20:56 <DanC> Jeremey: I think this came from a proposal I made...

18:21:20 <DanC> we're under "Lexical representations" in section 4.

18:21:36 <DanC> ACTION Jeremy: suggest wording.

18:22:01 <DanC> Jeremy: yes, 'lexical' is misleading.

18:22:23 <DanC> ------ 6) Removing "Integration of digital signatures."

18:25:16 <DanC> ACTION DanC: suggest wording ala "just check that our language doesn't conflict with W3C XML Sig stuff"

18:25:39 <DanC> ------- 7) Mike Dean's new requirements (dated Feb. 19).

18:25:51 <DanC> JimH: can we postpone to next draft?

18:25:55 <DanC> MikeD: ok

18:26:07 <DanC> ----- 1) "Referencing with URIs" (redux)

18:26:38 <DanC> PFPS: cf http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Feb/0085.html

18:27:25 <DanC> PFPS: "we need to be able to reference what we're interested in [...]"

18:27:36 <DanC> ?: pls s/URI/URI reference/

18:27:49 <DanC> 2nded

18:28:07 <DanC> PatH: be aware of #fragment issues in RDFCore

18:28:25 * jon-b asked for URIreference

18:28:32 <DanC> meeting extended for 10min

18:28:54 <DanC> RESOLVED: with the s/URI/URI reference/, it stays.

18:29:11 <libby> gotta go, see you

18:29:15 <DanC> ciao.

18:29:19 <DanC> -------- 2) "Ontologies as resources"

18:29:58 <DanC> Jeff: PFPS argued against, DanC, Frank, etc. argued in favor.

18:30:42 * DanC hunts for PFPF's msg on this topic...

18:31:07 <DanC> PFPS: "ontologies as distinct objects; ontologies must have their own unique identifiers"

18:32:10 <DanC> DanC: ok by me

18:32:39 <DanC> JonB: "object" seems just as problematic as "resource", but [I guess I could live]

18:33:22 <DanC> PFPS: "ontologies as distinct objects; ontologies must have their own unique identifiers, i.e. URI reference"

18:34:25 <DanC> (oops; not pfps)

18:34:25 <DanC> PROPOSED:"ontologies as distinct objects; ontologies must have their own unique identifiers, i.e. URI reference"

18:34:25 <DanC> PROPOSED:"ontologies as distinct objects; ontologies must have their own unique identifiers, e.g.. URI reference"

18:34:30 <DanC> RESOLVED.

18:34:48 <DanC> Jeff: so that's it for the stuff as of 10:40ET last night.

18:35:02 <DanC> Jeff: I'm happy to take wording (editorial) suggestions thru Fri.

18:35:14 <DanC> JimH: I'll be sure the motion to publish is in the agenda next weds.

18:35:21 <DanC> ----- AOB?

18:35:48 <DanC> agenda next time: yes, MikeD's DAML eval stuff

18:35:57 <DanC> Frank vH volunteers to scribe next week.

18:36:09 <DanC> tentative regrets from DanC;

18:36:12 <DanC> regrets from PatH

18:36:28 <DanC> ADJOURNED.

18:36:36 <jhendler> -JimH

18:36:49 <nmg> bye

18:37:09 <fra> bye

18:38:57 <gk> JimH.. As you'll see, I looked through that doc as promised. I just noticed it wasn't the very latest version. Anyway, I plan to take another pass on tha plane coming to the plenary.

18:40:06 <jhendler> gk - thanks.

18:44:36 <DanC> logger_3, pointer?

18:44:36 <DanC> See http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/webont/2002-02-21#T18-44-36